Milton Kleim
John Anonymous MacDonald
October 28. Last night I had to do the most unpleasant thing that I have
been called to do since joining the Organization four years ago. I participated
in the execution of a mutineer.
Harry Powell was Unit 5's leader. Last week, when Washington Field
Command gave his unit the assignment of assassinating two of the most
obnoxious and outspoken advocates of racial mixing in this area -- a priest and
a rabbi, coauthors of a widely publicized petition to Congress requesting
special tax advantages for racially mixed married couples -- Powell refused the
assignment. He sent a message back to WFC saying that he was opposed to
the further use of violence and that his unit would not participate in any acts
of terrorism.
He was immediately placed under arrest, and yesterday one representative
from each unit under WFC -- including Unit 5 -- was summoned to judge him.
Unit 10 was not able to send anyone, and so 11 members -- eight men and
three women -- met with an officer from WFC in the basement storeroom of a
gift shop owned by one of our "legals." I was Unit 1's representative.
The officer from WFC stated the case against Powell very briefly. The Unit
5 representative then confirmed the facts: Powell had not only refused to
obey the assassination order, but he had instructed the members of his unit
not to obey either. Fortunately, they had not allowed themselves to be
subverted by him.
Powell was then given an opportunity to speak in his behalf. He did so for
more than two hours, interrupted occasionally by a question from one of us.
What he said really shook me, but it made our decision easier for all of us, I
am sure.
Harry Powell was, in essence, a "responsible conservative." The fact that
he was not only a member of the Organization but had become a unit leader
reflects more on the Organization than it does on him. His basic complaint
was that all our acts of terror against the System were only making things
worse by "provoking" the System into taking more and more repressive
measures.
Well, of course, we all understood that! Or, at least, I thought we all
understood it. Apparently Powell didn't. That is, he didn't understand that
one of the major purposes of political terror, always and everywhere, is to
force the authorities to take reprisals and to become more repressive, thus
alienating a portion of the population and generating sympathy for the
terrorists. And the other purpose is to create unrest by destroying the
population's sense of security and their belief in the invincibility of the
government.
As Powell continued talking, it became clearer and clearer that he was a
conservative, not a revolutionary. He talked as if the whole purpose of the
Organization were to force the System to institute certain reforms, rather
than to destroy the System, root and branch, and build something radically
and fundamentally different in its place.
He was opposed to the System because it taxed his business too heavily.
(He had owned a hardware store before we were forced underground.) He
was opposed to the System's permissiveness with Blacks, because crime and
rioting were bad for business. He was opposed to the System's confiscation
of firearms, because he felt he needed a gun for personal security. His were
the motivations of a libertarian, the sort of self-centered individual who sees
the basic evil in government as a limitation on free enterprise.
Someone asked him whether he had forgotten what the Organization has
repeated over and over, namely, that our struggle is to secure the future of
our race, and that the issue of individual freedom is subordinate to that one,
overwhelming purpose. His retort was that the Organization's violent tactics
are benefiting neither our race nor individual freedom.
This answer proved again that he didn't really understand what we are
tr
ying to do. His initial approval of the use of force against the System was
based on the naive assumption that, by God, we'll show those bastards!
When the System, instead of backing down, began tightening the screws
even faster, he decided that our policy of terrorism is counter-productive.
He simply could not accept the fact that the path to our goal cannot be a
retracing of our course to some earlier stage in our history, but must instead
be an overcoming of the present and a forging ahead into the future-with us
choosing the direction instead of the System. Until we have torn the rudder
out of its grasp and thrown the System overboard, the ship of state will go
careening on its hazardous way. There will be no stopping, no going back.
Since we are already among rocks and shoals, we are bound to get scraped
up pretty badly before we find any clear sailing.
Maybe he was right that our tactics are wrong; the reaction of the people
will eventually answer that question. But his whole attitude, his whole
orientation was wrong. As I listened to Powell I was reminded of the
late-19th century writer, Brooks Adams, and his division of the human race
into two classes: spiritual man and economic man. Powell was the epitome of
economic man.
Ideologies, ultimate purposes, the fundamental contradiction between the
System's world view and ours -- all these things had no meaning for him. He
regarded the Organization's philosophy as just so much ideological flypaper
designed to catch recruits for us. He saw our struggle against the System as a
contest for power and nothing more. If we could not whip them, then we
should try to force them to compromise with us.
I wondered how many others in the Organization thought the way Powell
did, and I shuddered. We have been forced to grow too quickly. There has
not been sufficient time to develop in all our people the essentially religious
attitude toward our purpose and our doctrines which would have prevented
the Powell incident by screening him out early.
As it was, we had no real choice in deciding Powell's fate. There was not
only his disobedience to consider, but also the fact that he had revealed
himself to be fundamentally unreliable. To have one of us-and a unit leader,
at that-talking openly to other members about trying to find a way to
compromise with the System, with the war just beginning... There was only
one way to deal with such a situation.
The eight male members present drew straws, and three of us, including
me, ended up on the execution squad. When Powell realized that he was
going to be killed, he tried to make a break. We tied his hands and feet, and
then we had to gag him when he began shouting. We drove him to a wooded
area off the highway about 10 miles south of Washington, shot him, and
buried him.
The Turner Diaries
Chapter Seven
Anthony B. James
In <1996090701...@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
gee....this is a sad,sad insight into the mentality of those fighting
for a perverted, self destructive, sickening cause.....but
ummmm.....why did you cross post it to alt.skinheads? please explain
this to me.....it makes no sense what so ever....ummmm.......you scare
me....Mom!...
Bullseye
Baltimore trad skin for life
Dave Harman OBC
In <1996090701...@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> Anonymous writes:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Also, check the full header.
! October 28. Last night I had to do the most unpleasant thing that I have
! been called to do since joining the Organization four years ago. I participated
! in the execution of a mutineer.
! Harry Powell was Unit 5's leader. Last week, when Washington Field
! Command gave his unit the assignment of assassinating two of the most
! obnoxious and outspoken advocates of racial mixing in this area -- a priest and
! a rabbi, coauthors of a widely publicized petition to Congress requesting
! special tax advantages for racially mixed married couples -- Powell refused the
! assignment. He sent a message back to WFC saying that he was opposed to
! the further use of violence and that his unit would not participate in any acts
! of terrorism.
! He was immediately placed under arrest, and yesterday one representative
! from each unit under WFC -- including Unit 5 -- was summoned to judge him.
! Unit 10 was not able to send anyone, and so 11 members -- eight men and
! three women -- met with an officer from WFC in the basement storeroom of a
! gift shop owned by one of our "legals." I was Unit 1's representative.
! The officer from WFC stated the case against Powell very briefly. The Unit
! 5 representative then confirmed the facts: Powell had not only refused to
! obey the assassination order, but he had instructed the members of his unit
! not to obey either. Fortunately, they had not allowed themselves to be
! subverted by him.
! Powell was then given an opportunity to speak in his behalf. He did so for
! more than two hours, interrupted occasionally by a question from one of us.
! What he said really shook me, but it made our decision easier for all of us, I
! am sure.
! Harry Powell was, in essence, a "responsible conservative." The fact that
! he was not only a member of the Organization but had become a unit leader
! reflects more on the Organization than it does on him. His basic complaint
! was that all our acts of terror against the System were only making things
! worse by "provoking" the System into taking more and more repressive
! measures.
Well, by posting this I presume you think the above isn't true? With
even the EFF and the ACLU advocating FBI terrorism, sort of makes you
think, no? Or does this mean you endorse the Turner Diaries?
! Well, of course, we all understood that! Or, at least, I thought we all
! understood it. Apparently Powell didn't. That is, he didn't understand that
! one of the major purposes of political terror, always and everywhere, is to
! force the authorities to take reprisals and to become more repressive, thus
! alienating a portion of the population and generating sympathy for the
! terrorists. And the other purpose is to create unrest by destroying the
! population's sense of security and their belief in the invincibility of the
! government.
! As Powell continued talking, it became clearer and clearer that he was a
! conservative, not a revolutionary. He talked as if the whole purpose of the
! Organization were to force the System to institute certain reforms, rather
! than to destroy the System, root and branch, and build something radically
! and fundamentally different in its place.
! He was opposed to the System because it taxed his business too heavily.
! (He had owned a hardware store before we were forced underground.) He
! was opposed to the System's permissiveness with Blacks, because crime and
! rioting were bad for business. He was opposed to the System's confiscation
! of firearms, because he felt he needed a gun for personal security. His were
! the motivations of a libertarian, the sort of self-centered individual who sees
! the basic evil in government as a limitation on free enterprise.
! Someone asked him whether he had forgotten what the Organization has
! repeated over and over, namely, that our struggle is to secure the future of
! our race, and that the issue of individual freedom is subordinate to that one,
! overwhelming purpose. His retort was that the Organization's violent tactics
! are benefiting neither our race nor individual freedom.
! This answer proved again that he didn't really understand what we are
! tr
! ying to do. His initial approval of the use of force against the System was
! based on the naive assumption that, by God, we'll show those bastards!
! When the System, instead of backing down, began tightening the screws
! even faster, he decided that our policy of terrorism is counter-productive.
! He simply could not accept the fact that the path to our goal cannot be a
! retracing of our course to some earlier stage in our history, but must instead
! be an overcoming of the present and a forging ahead into the future-with us
! choosing the direction instead of the System. Until we have torn the rudder
! out of its grasp and thrown the System overboard, the ship of state will go
! careening on its hazardous way. There will be no stopping, no going back.
! Since we are already among rocks and shoals, we are bound to get scraped
! up pretty badly before we find any clear sailing.
! Maybe he was right that our tactics are wrong; the reaction of the people
! will eventually answer that question. But his whole attitude, his whole
! orientation was wrong. As I listened to Powell I was reminded of the
! late-19th century writer, Brooks Adams, and his division of the human race
! into two classes: spiritual man and economic man. Powell was the epitome of
! economic man.
! Ideologies, ultimate purposes, the fundamental contradiction between the
! System's world view and ours -- all these things had no meaning for him. He
! regarded the Organization's philosophy as just so much ideological flypaper
! designed to catch recruits for us. He saw our struggle against the System as a
! contest for power and nothing more. If we could not whip them, then we
! should try to force them to compromise with us.
! I wondered how many others in the Organization thought the way Powell
! did, and I shuddered. We have been forced to grow too quickly. There has
! not been sufficient time to develop in all our people the essentially religious
! attitude toward our purpose and our doctrines which would have prevented
! the Powell incident by screening him out early.
!
! As it was, we had no real choice in deciding Powell's fate. There was not
! only his disobedience to consider, but also the fact that he had revealed
! himself to be fundamentally unreliable. To have one of us-and a unit leader,
! at that-talking openly to other members about trying to find a way to
! compromise with the System, with the war just beginning... There was only
! one way to deal with such a situation.
! The eight male members present drew straws, and three of us, including
! me, ended up on the execution squad. When Powell realized that he was
! going to be killed, he tried to make a break. We tied his hands and feet, and
! then we had to gag him when he began shouting. We drove him to a wooded
! area off the highway about 10 miles south of Washington, shot him, and
! buried him.
!
! The Turner Diaries
! Chapter Seven
JACKASS, is this supposed to be a threat? This post was most likely
sent by an anti-racist, perhaps an anti-racist in the movement, a
"Harry Powell," or a police stooge, seeking to make our society more
repressive. This previous poster is more likely to be an anti-racist
than Milton Kleim.
--
| | | | |
| | | |
| | | | |
_|__|__|__|__
/--------------\
| |
| 0 0 |--\
| * | |
| \-------/ | |
| \_____/ |__/
\______________/
Ÿ—›Æבõ‡ áî¨õŽžä
Dave Harman OBC
Don't be fooled by the bogus header folks! This was a *forgery*, either
before or with the alias.net remailer. It was stylisticly the same
header as the forger criminal who's posting everyday the Z-Gram mailing
list to alt.fan.ernst-zundel, after stealing the list from the author{s}.
The header shows a legitimate initial Path: line, the *only* part of
every usenet header that is actually a reliable clue as to which site
initiated the forgery. Anyone with sysadmin access to a newsserver
can falsify an entire header except for the beginning of a Path: line.
The post was either a complete forgery, or it was forged mail sent
to the alias.net remailer with the command that allows *non-anonymous*
posting of forged mail. I don't know which it was, but I don't think
the remailer allows header pasting of the From: line.
! Path: netcom.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!flesh.fly.net!anon.lcs.mit.edu!nym.alias.net!mail2news
! Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 18:35:57 -0700
! Message-ID: <1996090701...@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
! From: nob...@cypherpunks.ca (John Anonymous MacDonald)
! Comments: There is no way to determine the originator of this message.
If you wish to be blocked from receiving all anonymous mail, send
your request to the <remailer-...@c2.org> mailing list.
The operator of this particular remailer can be reached at
<remaile...@cypherpunks.ca>.
! Subject: Milton Kleim
! Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.skinheads
! Mail-To-News-Contact: ad...@nym.alias.net
! Organization: mail...@nym.alias.net
! Lines: 104
! Xref: netcom.com alt.revisionism:109269 alt.politics.white-power:68774 alt.politics.nationalism.white:51839 alt.skinheads:79412
Dave Harman OBC
In <50r03r$r...@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> it...@ix.netcom.com(Anthony B. James) writes:
! gee....this is a sad,sad insight into the mentality of those fighting
! for a perverted, self destructive, sickening cause.....but
! ummmm.....why did you cross post it to alt.skinheads? please explain
! this to me.....it makes no sense what so ever....ummmm.......you scare
! me....Mom!...
!
! Bullseye
! Baltimore trad skin for life
Consciously trying to increase state repression
was a valid political tactic in 1922 Italy, 1933 Germany and 1917 Russia.
Whether such a tactic would work today, is subject for debate.
It would probably
be self-destructive, because the public has little sympathy for the
radical racists in the status quo. If the state were to become so liberal
that it becomes incapable of defending it's own corrupt interests, there
then would be popular support for authoritarianism.
But the forged post was obviously intended to be a threat on Milton Kleim,
almost certainly done by anti-racists without a cause.
Joel Rosenberg
>In <1996090701...@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> Anonymous writes:
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Also, check the full header.
Isn't it more likely an explanation of what Mortie's ex-buddies would be
likely to do with him?
---------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.winternet.com/~joelr
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0380973227/joelrosenbergA/
...and for the last bit of geekitry: to receive the latest version of my FAQ,
send me a message with the phrase "your FAQ" anywhere in the subject line.
Anthony B. James
In <qutDxD...@netcom.com> q...@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) writes:
>
>In <50r03r$r...@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> it...@ix.netcom.com(Anthony B.
James) writes:
>
fighting
>! for a perverted, self destructive, sickening cause.....but
>! ummmm.....why did you cross post it to alt.skinheads? please explain
>! this to me.....it makes no sense what so ever....ummmm.......you
scare
see, this is really funny. I posted a reply to the originall post,
simply because all these pointless cross posts make me laugh, you
posted three replies, because, from the best I can deduct, you actually
give a flying rats ass about the truthfullness of said originall post,
te he, it is to laugh
cheers,
Bullseye
baltimore trad skin for life
and if i want to talk polotics ill wait till my pol. science class
Dave Harman OBC
In <joelr.400...@winternet.com> jo...@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) writes:
! In article <qutDxD...@netcom.com> q...@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) writes:
!
!
!
! >In <1996090701...@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> Anonymous writes:
! > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
!
! >Also, check the full header.
!
! Isn't it more likely an explanation of what Mr. Kleim's ex-buddies would be
! likely to do with him?
No, because the Path: line is identical to the copyright terrorist who's
stealing and posting the Zgrams. Not only that, but anti-racists commit
over 99% of acts of violence every year that racists are the victim of.
Racists commit only one hundred acts of violence a year, and many racists
are falsely convicted every year because of political persecution by
anti-racists in power.
Joel Rosenberg
Ho, ho, ho.
Anthony B. James
In <qutDxD...@netcom.com> q...@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) writes:
>
>In <joelr.400...@winternet.com> jo...@winternet.com (Joel
Rosenberg) writes:
>
>! In article <qutDxD...@netcom.com> q...@netcom.com (Dave Harman
OBC) writes:
>!
>!
>!
>! >In <1996090701...@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> Anonymous
writes:
>! > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>!
>!
would be
>! likely to do with him?
>
>No, because the Path: line is identical to the copyright terrorist
who's
>stealing and posting the Zgrams. Not only that, but anti-racists
commit
>over 99% of acts of violence every year that racists are the victim
of.
>Racists commit only one hundred acts of violence a year, and many
racists
>are falsely convicted every year because of political persecution by
>anti-racists in power.
>
>
> | | | | |
> | | | |
> | | | | |
> _|__|__|__|__
> /--------------\
> | |
> | 0 0 |--\
> | * | |
> | \-------/ | |
> | \_____/ |__/
> \______________/
>
> Ÿ—›Æבõ‡ áî¨õŽžä
gee, do racists have a quota for acts of violence? what, do they get
overtime for commiting more than a hundred acts of violence every year?
fuck off, stop cross posting
Bullseye
Jeffrey G. Brown
> Not only that, but anti-racists commit
> over 99% of acts of violence every year that racists are the victim of.
And the source for this rather unlikely statistic is... what?
> Racists commit only one hundred acts of violence a year...
And the source for this second, equally unlikely statistic is... what?
> and many racists
> are falsely convicted every year because of political persecution by
> anti-racists in power.
And the evidence for this claim is.. what?
(Note: As I have had to point out to other, more coherent racists than
you, Harmon: evidence has to come from somewhere _outside_ your own
skull.)
JGB
=====================================================================
Jeffrey G. Brown jeff_...@pol.com
"What's going to happen?" "Something wonderful..." -- '2010'
Jeffrey G. Brown
> But the forged post was obviously intended to be a threat on Milton Kleim,
> almost certainly done by anti-racists without a cause.
Why "almost certainly done by anti-racists"? Can you provide any evidence
of the identity of the forger? (Reminder: Evidence comes from outside your
own skull.)
In the absence of such evidence, it is equally likely, for instance, that
you yourself forged the post. It is obviously providing you a marvelous
opportunity to wax indignant about the terrible threats that the
"anti-racists" are making aginst poor old Milton.
Do I have evidence of this? None at all. It is merely one of an infinite
number of alternatives to your wails of "anti-racist" conspiracy. My
saying it does not make it so, in the absence of hard evidence of the
identity of the forger and his motives. The same is true of your
assertion.
Joel Rosenberg
In article <jeff_brown-07...@news.zippo.com> jeff_...@pol.com (Jeffrey G. Brown) writes:
>From: jeff_...@pol.com (Jeffrey G. Brown)
>Subject: Re: Joel Rosenberg Laughs Off Vague Threat On Milton Kleim By
>Anti-Racists
>Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 16:23:15 -0400
>In article <qutDxD...@netcom.com>, q...@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) wrote:
>> Not only that, but anti-racists commit
>> over 99% of acts of violence every year that racists are the victim of.
>And the source for this rather unlikely statistic is... what?
>> Racists commit only one hundred acts of violence a year...
>And the source for this second, equally unlikely statistic is... what?
He, like, made it up, no? I mean, that is the IHR-approved revisionazi
method, after all.
Rich Graves
In article <qutDxD...@netcom.com>, /q...@netcom.com/:j (Dave Harman
OBC) wrote:
> Don't be fooled by the bogus header folks!
Huh? There's no bogus header on your post this time. You're not even
setting followups to alt.flame.
> ! Path:
netcom.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!flesh.fly.net!anon.lcs.mit.edu!nym.alias.net!mail2news
> ! Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 18:35:57 -0700
> ! Message-ID: <1996090701...@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
> ! From: nob...@cypherpunks.ca (John Anonymous MacDonald)
> ! Comments: There is no way to determine the originator of this message.
> If you wish to be blocked from receiving all anonymous mail, send
> your request to the <remailer-...@c2.org> mailing list.
> The operator of this particular remailer can be reached at
> <remaile...@cypherpunks.ca>.
Mr. Harman, allow me to explain this to you, as I explained it to Milton
Kleim earlier this morning (OK, it was late morning, but I slept in).
rema...@cypherpunks.ca is the "jam" remailer. "John Anonymous MacDonald"
(which I think is just a meaningless expansion of the acronym he wanted,
"jam") is the normal From: line for anonymous postings from the jam
remailer. cypherpunks.ca actually forwards to a machine at Berkeley, hence
the Message-ID you see. The article was posted through anon.lcs.mit.edu,
which is an alias for nym.alias.net, hence the path. Nothing at all
unusual, nothing forged.
Moreover, I do not believe that Milton Kleim considers the message a
threat. As Mr. Kleim said of you two weeks ago, on August 24th, and I
quote, "Typical. The weirdoes come from everywhere."
Remember, we're laughing at you, not with you. All of us.
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/h/harman.david
ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/qu/qut
No wonder the real racists won't associate with you. Sad, very sad. You
need a hobby, Dave. You talked about setting up a new racist ISP. Well,
why don't you volunteer to help out with AlphaNet? Assuming, of course,
that they'd be willing to touch you with a ten-foot pole. They have
standards, you know.
Milton Kleim
I am assuming someone posted the excerpts from _the Turner Diaries_ directed
at me as some sort of dark humor. However, let me make a few comments about
it anyway.
I will in no way be intimidated by any "movement" assholes, whomever they
may be or whatever they may represent. I have spoken my mind, and will not
withdraw any denunciatory statement of truth I have made against the
"movement." I would advise any "heroes" out there that they leave me alone,
as I requested.
I am more than adequately prepared with weapons and security measures to
counter any genuine threat to my safety. While I'd rather never be placed
in such a position, I am ready and more than willing to defend myself with
whatever means are necessary. LET EVERYONE CLEARLY UNDERSTAND THIS: I would
not hesitate for a second to do what is necessary to defend myself, those
around me, or my home.
As for the philosophical implications of the excerpt taken from _the Turner
Diaries_, let me state that at no time did I take an oath to any man or any
organization. I am not bound by any "code of honor" that I voluntarily
submitted to. I have never held a "movement" position or "rank" granted to
me to by another. I joined the National Alliance voluntarily, and resigned
in proper manner. My resignation from and denunciation of the "movement,"
including the National Alliance, came long after my resignation from the
Alliance itself. I do not have to justify my actions to anyone.
I am not afraid of any "movement" morons and nut-cases coming after me for
my statements of truth (which make them fear for their money-making
potential and the the cohesion of their infantile fantasy worlds), for my
"cause" is right and just. Theirs is not. As God could not bless Hitler's
"movement" decades ago, resulting in Germany's defeat by other evil forces,
God cannot bless the "movement" and the purposes of the National Alliance or
Resistance Records today. They, too, will fail, and as I made clear, I wish
to be no part of their unholy "cause."
My Fate is in the Hand of God, not in that of wild-eyed mental cases who
desire "revenge" against a "race-traitor" like me. Several "movement"
activists have already resigned with us. WhiteWolf will shortly announce
his own resignation, for some of the same reasons as my own. I dare quote
the German prayer: "Gott mit uns" -- but not with William Pierce or George
Burdi. I shall do right. To quote a great German leader, Dr. Martin
Luther: "Here I stand, I can do nothing other."
If the post was a joke, ha ha. If it was not, then YOU -- the "movement"
fanatic who posted it -- stand warned. Steer clear of me, and we'll both be
better off.
-- Milton John Kleim, Jr.
--
Rich Graves
For the record, so did Milton Kleim, though Les was concerned for a bit.
Skippy, you're hilarious. Please keep posting. You're out of my killfile
now. I wouldn't miss the rest of this thread for the world.
-rich
http://www.c2.org/~rich/
CHRIST SODOMIZER
jo...@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) took a fat hit off a pipe and
wrote:
>Ho, ho, ho.
Bwahahahahaha!
The weaklings remain evident.
GOAT
Walk into evil's lair...
<http://www.anus.com/> 666
Dave Harman OBC
In <rcgraves-080...@nntp.stanford.edu> llu...@stanford.edu (Skippy) writes:
! simply do not buy this "Nazism v. Communism struggle" garbage. Hitler was
! an opportunist, not an anti-communist. He signed a pact with Stalin in
! 1939, ferchrissakes, and divided Poland with him. Yes, even in the early
! days, he ranted against Communist influence, but I see those as tactical
! moves. Nazi propaganda became more and more anti-Bolshevik over time as
! the battle raged on the Eastern Front -- an instrumental development, not
! an ideological development. Hitler was defeated by the folly of a land war
! in Asia, by *good* forces from the west, and, yes, in part by evil forces
! from the East (but by the time Germany was actually defeated, the Soviet
! army was arguably more Russian nationalist than Communist).
I don't buy it either, it's tactics. Communism is just an economics
system, just like capitalism is. The evil forces {w}{[ea]}re racial
forces, not economic. Although my feeling is to put economic values
second to race, I adore the economic system of Josef Stalin, it has a
powerful effect on getting people to give up classist values and
stick to racial national values.
! "Nazism v. Communism" was a historical accident, not the titanic struggle
! that Nazis like to believe it was (is). They are not fundamentally
! opposed, but both are fundamentally opposed to freedom and democracy.
! That's why most decent people in the West -- left, right, and center --
! set aside their differences to oppose both. And they defeated both.
No they didn't. Ideas are worth fighting for. We won the validation
of racism as a political structure.
Dave Harman OBC
In <50siqs$f...@freenet-news.carleton.ca> bb...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim) writes:
! I am more than adequately prepared with weapons and security measures to
! counter any genuine threat to my safety. While I'd rather never be placed
! in such a position, I am ready and more than willing to defend myself with
! whatever means are necessary. LET EVERYONE CLEARLY UNDERSTAND THIS: I would
! not hesitate for a second to do what is necessary to defend myself, those
! around me, or my home.
I'm happy for you, manliness is next to godliness. Glock 26's are the
latest piece. Speaking of guns, I think there could have been more
aggressive advertising attempts of Mr. Pierce's books than apparently
occured before settling with an anti-racist publisher. I agree that
the book is "not that great" as the author himself said, Hunter is even
better. This should be a good test of whether they're going to merchandise
their copyrights or whether this one was enough. I cannot find the
Barricade edition stocked in any bookstores, the ability to order it
is not good enough. Why not instead go and attempt to advertise in
any periodical that makes the pretense of supporting free speech?
San Fracisco Bay Guardian would be my first choice for the Bay Area.
The Homosexual Jewish management of that particular free weekly has
a 100,000+ readership who are probably 95+% not Jewish or Homosexual.
I've only seen two NVB ads, both in gun magazines.
! As for the philosophical implications of the excerpt taken from _the Turner
! Diaries_, let me state that at no time did I take an oath to any man or any
! organization. I am not bound by any "code of honor" that I voluntarily
! submitted to. I have never held a "movement" position or "rank" granted to
! me to by another. I joined the National Alliance voluntarily, and resigned
! in proper manner. My resignation from and denunciation of the "movement,"
! including the National Alliance, came long after my resignation from the
! Alliance itself. I do not have to justify my actions to anyone.
!
! I am not afraid of any "movement" morons and nut-cases coming after me for
! my statements of truth (which make them fear for their money-making
! potential and the the cohesion of their infantile fantasy worlds), for my
! "cause" is right and just. Theirs is not. As God could not bless Hitler's
! "movement" decades ago, resulting in Germany's defeat by other evil forces,
! God cannot bless the "movement" and the purposes of the National Alliance or
! Resistance Records today. They, too, will fail, and as I made clear, I wish
! to be no part of their unholy "cause."
!
! My Fate is in the Hand of God, not in that of wild-eyed mental cases who
! desire "revenge" against a "race-traitor" like me. Several "movement"
! activists have already resigned with us. WhiteWolf will shortly announce
! his own resignation, for some of the same reasons as my own. I dare quote
! the German prayer: "Gott mit uns" -- but not with William Pierce or George
! Burdi. I shall do right. To quote a great German leader, Dr. Martin
! Luther: "Here I stand, I can do nothing other."
!
! If the post was a joke, ha ha. If it was not, then YOU -- the "movement"
! fanatic who posted it -- stand warned. Steer clear of me, and we'll both be
! better off.
Fool. It was posted by an anti-racist hoping for a predictable response.
The operation was a complete success.
Seriously, how do feel about posting the Turner Diaries itself to usenet?
I mean, if the problem is distribution....
Also, what's wrong with divorcing the movement's philosophy from the
individual philosophers? There's no movement really, yet, so why not
consider the movement to be the collective racist spirit? Why not
consider Hunter, National Socialism Primer, Rahowa, etc., to be the
collective property of the movement? There's no leadership, with the
growth of the movement, perhaps inpiring leaders will eventually show
themselves. But in the mean time, freedom will do.
The more white chldren the better!
! http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~bb748
Dave Harman OBC
In <rcgraves-070...@nntp.stanford.edu> llu...@stanford.edu (Skippy) writes:
! In article <joelr.400...@winternet.com>, jo...@winternet.com (Joel
! Rosenberg) wrote:
!
! > In article <qutDxD...@netcom.com> q...@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) writes:
! >
! > >In <1996090701...@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> Anonymous writes:
! > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
! >
! > >Also, check the full header.
!
! As I've posted elsewhere, there is nothing at all unusual about the
! Message-ID or the headers.
Yes, there is. berkeley.edu is in no way connected with c2.net
who owns the alias.net domain. You know that, why do you lie? It
has the *same* Path: line as the stolen and forged e-mails authored
by Ingrid Rimland. Why do you even do this? No proof, except you
hold a grudge against anyone connected in any way with the Z ndels or
the NA, because they threaten the conclusions of your degree in
politics.
! > Isn't it more likely an explanation of what Mortie's ex-buddies would be
! > likely to do with him?
!
! I don't consider either extreme at all likely. It's a troll. Ignore it.
Of course it's a troll! Done by anti-racists. Ignore it.
Dave Harman OBC
! In article <qutDxD...@netcom.com>, (Dave Harman OBC) wrote:
!
! > Don't be fooled by the bogus header folks!
!
! Huh? There's no bogus header on your post this time. You're not even
! setting followups to alt.flame.
!
! > ! Path:
! netcom.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!flesh.fly.net!anon.lcs.mit.edu!nym.alias.net!mail2news
! > ! Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 18:35:57 -0700
! > ! Message-ID: <1996090701...@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>
! > ! From: nob...@cypherpunks.ca (John Anonymous MacDonald)
! > ! Comments: There is no way to determine the originator of this message.
! > If you wish to be blocked from receiving all anonymous mail, send
! > your request to the <remailer-...@c2.org> mailing list.
! > The operator of this particular remailer can be reached at
! > <remaile...@cypherpunks.ca>.
!
! Mr. Harman OBC, allow me to explain this to you, as I explained it to
! Milton Kleim earlier this morning (OK, it was late morning, but I slept in).
!
! rema...@cypherpunks.ca is the "jam" remailer. "John Anonymous MacDonald"
! (which I think is just a meaningless expansion of the acronym he wanted,
You know your not fooling us with that, it's newbies you hope to terrorise,
Milton Kleim is your example to thousands of others of how you intend to
lie and threaten. As I've said myself, it's incredibly ignorant to make
empty threats. I've made no threats at all, public or private. You wish
I did, because it's an obvious clue of adulturation.
! "jam") is the normal From: line for anonymous postings from the jam
! remailer. cypherpunks.ca actually forwards to a machine at Berkeley, hence
! the Message-ID you see. The article was posted through anon.lcs.mit.edu,
! which is an alias for nym.alias.net, hence the path. Nothing at all
! unusual, nothing forged.
!
! Moreover, I do not believe that Milton Kleim considers the message a
! threat. As Mr. Kleim said of you two weeks ago, on August 24th, and I
! quote, "Typical. The weirdoes come from everywhere."
I never noticed he started posting. He's a philosopher genius, though
trusting.
! Remembe , we're laughing at you, not with you. All of us.
Glad to hear it! Steve Wynter trained me when he was in San Francisco.
Now that you've learned to defeat GET 's from www.anonymnizer.com, I suppose
Nizkor will follow? Geez, I'm going to go over to an ISP without port 113
set up.
! No wonder the real racists won't associate with you. Sad, very sad. You
! need a hobby, Dave. You talked about setting up a new racist ISP. Well,
! why don't you volunteer to help out with AlphaNet? Assuming, of course,
You guys have already been helping me out plenty. I'd a been a fool
to go into business without being aware of types like the Rich Graves.
Freedom is not for the na‹ve. That linux server I'm trying to set up
will do a lot toward helping me learn admining. What's AlphaNet?
Yeah, I'm looking at Alpha's. No more Micro$oft or Intel.
Dave Harman OBC
In <joelr.403...@winternet.com> jo...@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) writes:
! In article <jeff_brown-07...@news.zippo.com> jeff_...@pol.com (Jeffrey G. Brown) writes:
! >From: jeff_...@pol.com (Jeffrey G. Brown)
! >Subject: Re: Joel Rosenberg Laughs Off Vague Threat On Milton Kleim By
! >Anti-Racists
! >Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 16:23:15 -0400
!
! >In article <qutDxD...@netcom.com>, q...@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) wrote:
!
! >> Not only that, but anti-racists commit
! >> over 99% of acts of violence every year that racists are the victim of.
!
! >> Racists commit only one hundred acts of violence a year...
!
! >And the source for this second, equally unlikely statistic is... what?
The Southern Law Poverty Center reports about one hundred acts of
violence by racists a year fifty of the acts of violence having
Jewish American victims, the rest being other Asian, Chicano and
African American. George Loeb is a good example of a racist
commited violence that was initially held justified by the police,
later being charged, convicted and sentenced to life imprisonment
merely becuse he was politically racist.
Rich Graves
/q...@netcom.com/f:j (Dave Harman OBC) writes:
>! >
>! > >In <1996090701...@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> Anonymous writes:
>! > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>! >
>! > >Also, check the full header.
>!
>! As I've posted elsewhere, there is nothing at all unusual about the
>! Message-ID or the headers.
>
>Yes, there is. berkeley.edu is in no way connected with c2.net
>who owns the alias.net domain. You know that, why do you lie? It
Mr. Harman, once again for the technically inept:
The message, to which Milton Kleim posted a followup with conclusions
diametrically opposed to yours (Milton thinks you're a kook, and he has
excellent reasons for this belief), was sent from the jam remailer,
rema...@cypherpunks.ca, which is physically located on
abraham.cs.berkeley.edu, to the anon.lcs.mit.edu or alias.net Usenet
gateway.
From: nob...@cypherpunks.ca (John Anonymous MacDonald)
Is the posting address for the jam (acronym for John Anonymous
MacDonald) remailer.
Other recent posts with identical characteristics include:
<1996090323...@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> in alt.test
<1996090516...@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> in alt.sources.amiga
<1996090504...@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> in comp.org.eff.talk
<1996090505...@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> in alt.privacy.anon-server
Now that it is patently obvious that you don't know what you're talking
about, kindly shut the fuck up.
-rich
Annie Alpert
Milton Kleim wrote:
>
> I am assuming someone posted the excerpts from _the Turner Diaries_ directed
> at me as some sort of dark humor. However, let me make a few comments about
> it anyway.
>
> I will in no way be intimidated by any "movement" assholes, whomever they
> may be or whatever they may represent. I have spoken my mind, and will not
> withdraw any denunciatory statement of truth I have made against the
> "movement." I would advise any "heroes" out there that they leave me alone,
> as I requested.
snip for space
Miltie, you really surprised me with your comments and with the contents
of your web page at http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~bb748. It takes a lot
of guts to do what you're doing. Good luck and best wishes.
--
Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?
European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/
Rich Graves
Milton Kleim wrote:
>
> I am assuming someone posted the excerpts from _the Turner Diaries_
> directed at me as some sort of dark humor. However, let me make a
> few comments about it anyway.
I am assuming that anything of substance I might say will probably make
things worse, which is why I've kept quiet until now (responding to
Dave Harman's idiocies doesn't count as "substance"), but allow me to
ask a few questions anyway.
> I will in no way be intimidated by any "movement" assholes, whomever
> they may be or whatever they may represent. I have spoken my mind,
> and will not withdraw any denunciatory statement of truth I have made
> against the "movement." I would advise any "heroes" out there that
> they leave me alone, as I requested.
>
> I am more than adequately prepared with weapons and security measures
> to counter any genuine threat to my safety. While I'd rather never
> be placed in such a position, I am ready and more than willing to
> defend myself with whatever means are necessary. LET EVERYONE CLEARLY
> UNDERSTAND THIS: I would not hesitate for a second to do what is
> necessary to defend myself, those around me, or my home.
Holy shit.
I would really like to see Lynn Young (aka Evelyn Hill), AryanGar, Les
Griswold, Sylvie Charbonneau, Dan Leonik, Will Williams, Robert Miller
(aka Trebor Lee), Kurt Stele, Kevin Alfred Strom, or some other
representative of the National Alliance clarify their position on
"traitors" who make what most people seem to agree are valid
observations about the negative personal qualities of the "movement
leaders." Does Milton deserve to die? Assuming you're all too cowardly
to try actual murder, as advocated by the founder of the National
Alliance in The Turner Diaries, should Milton expect to come home one
day to find Rocky stewing on the stove?
Why isn't anyone here (I'm reading alt.politics.nationalism.white)
discussing whether the reign of terror, especially over one's own
activists, is really such a good policy? The only reaction I've seen
from anyone with "standing" has been from Dannie Hawkins,
representative of the Metzger cult, who tried to argue that Milton had
been a ZOG provocateur all along. Are you all so crazy/stupid that you
really believe that?
Do you really believe in AlphaNet's slogan, "White Revolution is the
Only Solution," or are you just "hobbyists"? You know what the National
Alliance and the other hard-core groups say about "hobbyists," don't
you? Has it even begun to penetrate your skull what Louis Beam means by
"leaderless resistance"? What would you, personally, be willing to do
to make this country 100% Aryan? Please read the National Alliance
program again. It's at http://www.natvan.com/WHAT/na2.html
Am I the only one who found Evelyn Hill's reaction to Milton's
resignation vaguely ominous? Here it is again.
From stormf...@stormfront.org Sat Mar 23 01:17:22 1996
From: stormf...@stormfront.org (Stormfront-l)
Subject: Milton's resignation
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 22:35:01 GMT
Message-Id: <96032301...@stormfront.org>
Organization: Stormfront BBS: 407-833-4986
From: n...@ix.netcom.com (Evelyn Hill)
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 14:35:01 -0800
Subject: Milton's resignation
The National Office of the Nationol Alliance is not accepting Milton
Kleim's resignation until he has had time to fully consider his move.
Evelyn Hill
Office Manager
----------------------------------------------------------------------
To: Multiple recipients of the Stormfront-L Mailing List
Host: Don Black <dbl...@mail.stormfront.org> Finger for PGP public key.
To unsubscribe, send e-mail to 'list...@stormfront.org' with the
line 'unsubscribe Stormfront-L' in the message BODY, not the subject.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Processed with Listserv v2.88 for Wildcat v4
You people are fucked up, almost as far gone as the Sendero Luminoso
wackos I used to talk to (for those of you who have never picked up a
book, they're Maoist terrorists in Peru). I may not agree with Milton's
politics, but as a human being, he deserves better.
http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~bb748/
What's it going to be?
http://www.io.com/~arclight/National_Appliance/
-rich
Dave Harman OBC
In <32332D...@ccnis.net> Annie Alpert <Mias...@ccnis.net> writes:
! Milton Kleim wrote:
! >
! > I am assuming someone posted the excerpts from _the Turner Diaries_ directed
! > at me as some sort of dark humor. However, let me make a few comments about
! > it anyway.
! >
! > I will in no way be intimidated by any "movement" assholes, whomever they
! > may be or whatever they may represent. I have spoken my mind, and will not
! > withdraw any denunciatory statement of truth I have made against the
! > "movement." I would advise any "heroes" out there that they leave me alone,
! > as I requested.
!
! snip for space
!
! Miltie, you really surprised me with your comments and with the contents
! of your web page at http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~bb748. It takes a lot
! of guts to do what you're doing. Good luck and best wishes.
No shit. Anti-racists are rich terrorists.
! Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
! Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?
! European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
! Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/
Andrew Mathis
q...@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) wrote:
>In <joelr.400...@winternet.com> jo...@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) writes:
>! In article <qutDxD...@netcom.com> q...@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) writes:
>!
>!
>!
>! >In <1996090701...@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> Anonymous writes:
>! > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>!
>! >Also, check the full header.
>!
>! Isn't it more likely an explanation of what Mr. Kleim's ex-buddies would be
>! likely to do with him?
>No, because the Path: line is identical to the copyright terrorist who's
>stealing and posting the Zgrams. Not only that, but anti-racists commit
>over 99% of acts of violence every year that racists are the victim of.
>Racists commit only one hundred acts of violence a year, and many racists
>are falsely convicted every year because of political persecution by
>anti-racists in power.
>--
> | | | | |
> | | | |
> | | | | |
> _|__|__|__|__
> /--------------\
> | |
> | 0 0 |--\
> | * | |
> | \-------/ | |
> | \_____/ |__/
> \______________/
> Ÿ—›Æבõ‡ áî¨õŽžä
Shit, I'd post the Zgrams myself if it means I could get Ingrid
Rimland to sue me.
Andrew
=================================================================
What's new with Frente?--http://www.nj.com/maxwells/july96/frente.html
The Homepage that made Milwaukee famous--http://pages.nyu.edu/~aem0608
"Peyno derech Hashem"
--Yeshayahu 40:3
flu...@pipeline.com
Oooooh, ominous. For all Milty's faults, he at least had the courage to
state his beliefs, openly and under his own name. You can call it
"clandestine ops." or somehting equally media friendly and sexy, but its
still cowrardice, my brave Aryan friend.
Jim Dugan
In article <1996090701...@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu>, John Anonymous
MacDonald writes:
> October 28. Last night I had to do the most unpleasant thing that I have
>been called to do since joining the Organization four years ago. I
participated
>in the execution of a mutineer.
<snipped> (buy the book)
flu...@pipeline.com
In article <50vf6c$f...@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, Rich Graves writes:
>>! > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>! >
>>! > >Also, check the full header.
>>!
>>! As I've posted elsewhere, there is nothing at all unusual about the
>>! Message-ID or the headers.
>>
>>Yes, there is. berkeley.edu is in no way connected with c2.net
>>who owns the alias.net domain. You know that, why do you lie? It
>
>Mr. Harman, once again for the technically inept:
>
>The message, to which Milton Kleim posted a followup with conclusions
>diametrically opposed to yours (Milton thinks you're a kook, and he has
>excellent reasons for this belief), was sent from the jam remailer,
>rema...@cypherpunks.ca, which is physically located on
>abraham.cs.berkeley.edu, to the anon.lcs.mit.edu or alias.net Usenet
>gateway.
>
> From: nob...@cypherpunks.ca (John Anonymous MacDonald)
>
>Is the posting address for the jam (acronym for John Anonymous
>MacDonald) remailer.
>
>Other recent posts with identical characteristics include:
>
> <1996090323...@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> in alt.test
> <1996090516...@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> in alt.sources.amiga
> <1996090504...@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> in comp.org.eff.talk
> <1996090505...@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> in
alt.privacy.anon-server
>
>Now that it is patently obvious that you don't know what you're talking
>about, kindly shut the fuck up.
>
>-rich
Thanks for saying that. I miss anon.penet.fi already.
Jim Dugan
flu...@pipeline.com
<Yawn> that may be the most specious reply to a post in usenet history.
Milty basically said, "If you come for me, I will fight you" and here you
go on about the Jewish publising conspiracy and copyright infringement.
Hello? Reading comprehension? I notice however, you still have failed to
inform us exactly *why* it is that youre so sure that it was an anti-racist
troll. It was posted from ananon.remailer, which has become rather popular
since anon.penet closed.
Jim Dugan
Dave Harman OBC
In <50vtov$s...@news1.panix.com> fr...@panix.com (Andrew Mathis) writes:
! Shit, I'd post the Zgrams myself if it means I could get Ingrid
! Rimland to sue me.
!
! Andrew
I suggested before, why don't you post the Turner Diaries? Anyway,
just ask Rich Graves for copies of the list to automatically go
into your mail box.
Oh, and why don't you inform your Jewish friends about how much you
support taking away their mony from them?
Sylvia Rowe
In article <joelr.400...@winternet.com> jo...@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) writes:
>In article <qutDxD...@netcom.com> q...@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) writes:
>
>
>
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>>Also, check the full header.
>
What's interesting to me (and I don't know if the rest of you picked
up on it) is that Dave Harman OBC (obviously one of McOyVey's flunkies)
is really concerned about who "threatened" Milton. Hmmm...now why is
this? I thought that McOyVey and crew could care less if Milton were
found hacked into tiny bits, individually wrapped in cling film and
shoveled into an abandoned refrigerator. Now all of a sudden people
care? Very suspicious.
Sylvia
Joel Rosenberg
In article <09SEP96.14...@IBM.UTM.EDU> Sylvia Rowe <WA...@utm.edu> writes:
>From: Sylvia Rowe <WA...@utm.edu>
>Subject: RE: "Dave Harman" Alleges Vague Threat On Milton Kleim By Anti-R
>Date: 09 SEP 96 13:24:41 CST
>Sylvia
Dave Harman is one of *your* swine -- he's put the "OBC" at the end of his
name not because he's earned the honor (he hasn't) or been awarded the honor
(ditto), but because he has so very little dignity that he would pretend to an
honor he's neither earned nor been awarded.
I don't know what he hasn't just awarded himself the Medal of Honor and the
Nobel Prize as well -- he doesn't have those either.
I gloat, thusly:
Oh, Sylvia, it's so nice for you to show up so that I can make fun of you, and
point out what an idiot you are.
Thank you.
Rich Graves
Sylvia Rowe <WA...@utm.edu> writes:
>In article <joelr.400...@winternet.com> jo...@winternet.com
>Joel Rosenberg) writes:
>>In article <qutDxD...@netcom.com> q...@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) writes:
>>
>>>In <1996090701...@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> Anonymous writes:
>>
>>>Also, check the full header.
>>
>>Isn't it more likely an explanation of what Mortie's ex-buddies would be
>>likely to do with him?
>
>What's interesting to me (and I don't know if the rest of you picked
>up on it) is that Dave Harman OBC (obviously one of McOyVey's flunkies)
>is really concerned about who "threatened" Milton. Hmmm...now why is
>this? I thought that McOyVey and crew could care less if Milton were
>found hacked into tiny bits, individually wrapped in cling film and
>shoveled into an abandoned refrigerator. Now all of a sudden people
>care? Very suspicious.
Indeed! We have long suspected that Skippy is just TOO MUCH the idiot.
Nobody, not even the rain, has such a small mind. He MUST be working for
Nizkor; no real racist would say the things he does. For evidence of this,
see:
ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/qu/qut
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/h/harman.david
Sylvie, it's good to see that you recognize that any "threat" against your
ex belongs in quotes. Y'all don't really mean all that stuff you say about
race traitors; you're just a bunch of hobbyists playing Nazi because you
think it's "cool."
-rich
flu...@pipeline.com
In article <09SEP96.14...@IBM.UTM.EDU>, Sylvia Rowe writes:
>In article <joelr.400...@winternet.com> jo...@winternet.com (Joel
Rosenberg) writes:
>>In article <qutDxD...@netcom.com> q...@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC)
writes:
>>
>>
>>
>>>In <1996090701...@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> Anonymous writes:
>>>Also, check the full header.
>>
>>Isn't it more likely an explanation of what Mortie's ex-buddies would be
>>likely to do with him?
>
>What's interesting to me (and I don't know if the rest of you picked
>up on it) is that Dave Harman OBC (obviously one of McOyVey's flunkies)
>is really concerned about who "threatened" Milton. Hmmm...now why is
>this? I thought that McOyVey and crew could care less if Milton were
>found hacked into tiny bits, individually wrapped in cling film and
>shoveled into an abandoned refrigerator. Now all of a sudden people
>care? Very suspicious.
>
>
Ummmm, actually, Dave is one of yours. I assume the "OBC" bit is a dim
joke, and I'm quite sure no one bestowed one of Canada's highest civilian
honors on this moron.
Jim Dugan
flu...@pipeline.com
In article <qutDxD...@netcom.com>, Dave Harman OBC writes:
>But the forged post was obviously intended to be a threat on Milton Kleim,
>almost certainly done by anti-racists without a cause.
>--
>
But why? Do you honestly claim to speak for every WP, Nazi, Klan, and
general bigot in the country? Are you seriously asserting that no racist
in the country might have done this? Or do you merely say that, because its
what you want to believe, and you think that if you say it over and over it
will magically become true?
Jim Dugan
Lee-Jon Moore
Dave Harman OBC <q...@netcom.com> wrote in article
<qutDxD...@netcom.com>...
> In <joelr.400...@winternet.com> jo...@winternet.com (Joel
Rosenberg) writes:
>
> ! In article <qutDxD...@netcom.com> q...@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC)
writes:
> !
> !
> !
> ! >In <1996090701...@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> Anonymous writes:
> ! > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> !
> ! >Also, check the full header.
> !
> ! Isn't it more likely an explanation of what Mr. Kleim's ex-buddies
would be
> ! likely to do with him?
>
> No, because the Path: line is identical to the copyright terrorist who's
> stealing and posting the Zgrams. Not only that, but anti-racists commit
> over 99% of acts of violence every year that racists are the victim of.
> Racists commit only one hundred acts of violence a year, and many racists
> are falsely convicted every year because of political persecution by
> anti-racists in power.
> --
Hey Dave:
From where do you get your statistics?
Regards:
--
Another Select Individual From The Realms Of
--------------------------------Cafe Society International
Milton Kleim
"Dave Harman" replies to me:
> ! I am more than adequately prepared with weapons and security measures to
> ! counter any genuine threat to my safety. While I'd rather never be placed
> ! in such a position, I am ready and more than willing to defend myself with
> ! whatever means are necessary. LET EVERYONE CLEARLY UNDERSTAND THIS: I would
> ! not hesitate for a second to do what is necessary to defend myself, those
> ! around me, or my home.
> I'm happy for you, manliness is next to godliness. Glock 26's are the
> latest piece.
Winchesters, Sturm-Rugers, and Carl Walthers work for me. :-)
Although I wouldn't mind a SIG-Sauer...
> I cannot find the Barricade edition stocked in any bookstores, the
> ability to order it is not good enough.
I've found it in several "normal" bookstores. WHERE are you looking?
> Why not instead go and attempt to advertise in any periodical that makes
> the pretense of supporting free speech?
Well, I shock myself when I say this, but I'm now convinced that _the
Turner Diaries_ is an _abuse_ of free speech, even as interpreted by the
Founding Fathers (whom in my book count more than modern legal
"theorists"). Publications have a legitimate justification for not
publicizing it. But, there is also a case to be made, as Lyle Stuart did,
that dissemination of the book has greater positive effect, than does
suppressing it. The more normal people (i.e., those who are not bitter at
society -- as I was -- or loony, or even totally fucking nuts) who read
the book and are absolutely repulsed by the base hatred (no, I didn't
believe it was a book of "love for one's Race" when I was in the
"movement," either) and mad schemes and dreams within it's covers, the
better. The greater awareness of the threat to not only non-Whites, but
Aryans who don't share the author's "vision," the greater potential that
the "vision" will not be realized (yet again), even in small scale.
> ! If the post was a joke, ha ha. If it was not, then YOU -- the "movement"
> ! fanatic who posted it -- stand warned. Steer clear of me, and we'll both be
> ! better off.
> Fool. It was posted by an anti-racist hoping for a predictable response.
> The operation was a complete success.
*I* am the fool? [Now everyone control your laughter, please.]
I'm well-aware that an anti-racist or non-racist may have posted it, but
I'm also aware that there are "movement" assholes out there who are quite
pleased with what the implications of that post were.
> Seriously, how do feel about posting the Turner Diaries itself to usenet?
> I mean, if the problem is distribution....
It's also quite easily obtained at:
http://www.webmaker.net/alpha/ALPHAnet/books/Turner/
Sure, spread it around; there's much to be gained by letting people
read it.
> Why not consider Hunter, National Socialism Primer, Rahowa, etc., to be the
> collective property of the movement?
You might want to ask William Pierce and George Burdi what they think
about your suggestion regarding the first and last items... [take into
account Pierce's doubling of the sale price of TTD, and Burdi's
self-manufactured "White Man's Code of Honor" prohibition against copying
his CDs...]
As for my _National Socialism Primer_, obviously I no longer advance it as
a legitimate and realistic political tome. In fact, I have requested
several sites, including Don Black's Stormfront, to remove it. Some have
removed it; Black refuses to remove it, or even acknowledge my requests.
-- Milton John Kleim, Jr.
FORMER "movement" asshole ;-)
--
Andrew Mathis
q...@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) wrote:
My Jewish friends (and my non-Jewish ones) know my political
economics.
If you're talking about something else, I have no idea what it is.
Jeanne Kowalewski
In article <511inp$a...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>, bb...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA
(Milton Kleim) wrote:
* "Dave Harman" replies to me:
[big snip]
* -- Milton John Kleim, Jr.
* FORMER "movement" asshole ;-)
*
* --
*
* http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~bb748
Keep your butt low and keep speaking from your heart, Milt. I commend you
for continuing to stand for what you believe is right.
--
Rev. Jeanne K. | SISTER JEANNE!
Ordained Minister, ULC | Official Melchizedek Priest of McChurch
http://ulc.org/ulc/ | http://mcchurch.org
"Just one little, slight correction (I hate to be picky): not all skinheads
are racist. Just some of us. Then there are the ones like me that just lie
about it or hide it or whatever it is everyone tells me I do with it."
-----Teri, the Wicked WHITE Snow Witch (I'm still the SexNazi)
Rich Graves
In article <09SEP96.14...@IBM.UTM.EDU>, Sylvia Rowe <WA...@utm.edu>
wrote:
> What's interesting to me (and I don't know if the rest of you picked
> up on it) is that Dave Harman OBC (obviously one of McOyVey's flunkies)
> is really concerned about who "threatened" Milton. Hmmm...now why is
> this? I thought that McOyVey and crew could care less if Milton were
> found hacked into tiny bits, individually wrapped in cling film and
> shoveled into an abandoned refrigerator. Now all of a sudden people
> care? Very suspicious.
As I told Wyatt Kaldenberg way back in February, I care.
Geez, I thought I had problems with my ex. This kind of puts things in
perspective. [uncomfortable chuckle] I really don't want to see this played
out in public any more...
-rich
how 'bout let's all go out and have some ice cream
Dave Harman OBC
In <09SEP96.14...@IBM.UTM.EDU> Sylvia Rowe <WA...@utm.edu> writes:
! What's interesting to me (and I don't know if the rest of you picked
! up on it) is that Dave Harman OBC (obviously one of McOyVey's flunkies)
! is really concerned about who "threatened" Milton. Hmmm...now why is
! this? I thought that McOyVey and crew could care less if Milton were
! found hacked into tiny bits, individually wrapped in cling film and
! shoveled into an abandoned refrigerator. Now all of a sudden people
! care? Very suspicious.
Quite. Anti-racists are trying to terrorise new posters to the net
who don't know any better. They're trying to make an example of Mr.
Kleim by bringing up terrorism no matter what a non-sequitor it is.
Do you really think people like Rich Graves and other anti-racists
care about Milton Kleim other than to first use him as a scapegoat and
then attempt to claim that they cared all along about his personal well
being?
Drunken skinheads may make risky friends, but more satisfying in
the long haul.
Who says an upstanding activist cannot have comrades of every class and
ability? Milton Kleim is a genius but only racists recognize that.
Anyone who harrasses him is an anti-racist.
Anthony B. James
how the hell do drunken skinheads play into your never ending babble?
you know, personally, i am a skinhead, and i spend a majority of my
time on this hell hole called earth, drunk, but you know, i could give
a fuck less regardless about you or Mr. Kleim, please, fuck off.
cheers,
Bullseye
Baltimore trad skin for life
Milton Kleim
Sylvia Rowe (WA150%UTMARTN...@UGA.cc.UGA.edu) writes:
> What's interesting to me (and I don't know if the rest of you picked
> up on it) is that Dave Harman OBC (obviously one of McOyVey's flunkies)
> is really concerned about who "threatened" Milton.
Actually, Sylvia, Mr. "Harman" is an "Aryan racialist," who has decided to
append meaningless letters to his name to mock Mcvay. And he's one of the
more blatant examples of why I left the "movement." "Imbecile" does not
even come close...
> I thought that McOyVey and crew could care less if Milton were found
> hacked into tiny bits, individually wrapped in cling film and shoveled into
> an abandoned refrigerator. Now all of a sudden people care? Very
> suspicious.
I don't imagine very many "anti-racists" give a shit what happens to me,
being blinded by base hatred as they are. But neither do I care if they
use the matter for their own political agenda; most of what has been said
by my former opponents is true.
As for my being "hacked into tiny bits," that is a highly unlikely event;
more likely (but still unlikely, fortunately) is the undesirable
possibility that a "movement" lunatic "hero" would become a "martyr for
the Race" after being introduced to one of my close-quarters weapons
systems (that's Winchester Model 1300 for the simple minded :-).
--
"Here I stand, I can do nothing other."
-- Dr. Martin Luther
Joel Rosenberg
In article <514b0s$4...@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> r...@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) writes:
>From: r...@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green)
>Subject: Re: "Dave Harman" Alleges Vague Threat On Milton Kleim By Anti-R
>Date: 10 Sep 1996 11:11:40 -0700
>In article <512cjl$k...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
>Milton Kleim <bb...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>>I don't imagine very many "anti-racists" give a shit what happens to me,
>>being blinded by base hatred as they are. But neither do I care if they
>>use the matter for their own political agenda; most of what has been said
>>by my former opponents is true.
>Actually, Mr. Kleim, I think you are in error here. I think that many
>of us anti-racists (I see no need for quotes) are concerned about your
>well-being. I do not agree with your racist political views which
>apparently have not changed, but I respect the courage it has taken to
>make the changes that you have made. I hope that one day you will
>change more of your views. I realize that you probably don't think that
>will happen, but a couple of years ago you wouldn't have thought that
>you'd leave the "movement" either. I have hope for your continued
>growth and sincerely hope that it is not interrupted by the the actions
>of those who you once thought were friends.
Mileage varies. As for me, I'm not at all sure how I'd feel about his fate
were Kleim to suffer some grievous harm, although I suspect it would be
somewhere between mild regret and indifference.
In some sense, I think it would be a good thing if Kleim, as he goes through
life with the mark of Cain self-branded on his forehead, to be an object
lesson, as long as it's the right object lesson. I'll stand by my "Mark of
Cain" note at Nizkor on that.
In another sense, while I certainly don't see him as truly having
reformed (and I think his writing bears this out), I do accept the possibility
that that might happen, and perhaps I'd feel differently if it did, although
I'm not sure. I'm not a real forgiving guy, I guess. And the Grand
Canyon... well, we know how that goes.
That said, of course, were any of his former nazi buddies to be in any way
whatsoever responsible for any harm to him whatsoever -- including, but not
limited to, threats of harm or actual physical harm -- I'd want them to be
punished to the fullest extent possible under the law, and I would most
assuredly make my voice heard appropriately.
I wouldn't want Kleim to think that was a favor to him, and I'm sure he won't.
Richard J. Green
>I don't imagine very many "anti-racists" give a shit what happens to me,
>being blinded by base hatred as they are. But neither do I care if they
>use the matter for their own political agenda; most of what has been said
>by my former opponents is true.
Actually, Mr. Kleim, I think you are in error here. I think that many
of us anti-racists (I see no need for quotes) are concerned about your
well-being. I do not agree with your racist political views which
apparently have not changed, but I respect the courage it has taken to
make the changes that you have made. I hope that one day you will
change more of your views. I realize that you probably don't think that
will happen, but a couple of years ago you wouldn't have thought that
you'd leave the "movement" either. I have hope for your continued
growth and sincerely hope that it is not interrupted by the the actions
of those who you once thought were friends.
Regards,
Rich Green
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green Dept. of Chemistry
r...@lyman.Stanford.EDU Stanford University
http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud Stanford, CA 94305-5080
"Remember the days of yore,
"Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you."
-Deuteronomy 32:7
Dave Harman OBC
In <50sib4$r...@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> it...@ix.netcom.com(Anthony B. James) writes:
! >Anti-racists commit over 99% of acts of violence every year that racists
! >are the victim of. Racists commit only one hundred acts of violence a
! >year, and many racists are falsely convicted every year because of
! >political persecution by anti-racists in power.
!
! gee, do racists have a quota for acts of violence? what, do they get
! overtime for commiting more than a hundred acts of violence every year?
! fuck off, stop cross posting
Just showing that anti-racists are vastly more violent than racists.
Dave Harman OBC
In <5121on$a...@news1.panix.com> fr...@panix.com (Andrew Mathis) writes:
! >Oh, and why don't you inform your Jewish friends about how much you
! >support taking away their mony from them?
!
! My Jewish friends (and my non-Jewish ones) know my political
! economics.
About how you want to abolish inheritance of property? I support that
100%. It would be great for the state to talk away all of the rich's
money. I also support sharply reducing capital gains and making the
entire tax system progressive to suffocate the rich. But only racists
fully support a progressive economic system.
Annie Alpert
Milton Kleim wrote:
> As for my _National Socialism Primer_, obviously I no longer advance it as a legitimate and realistic political tome. In fact, I have requested
> several sites, including Don Black's Stormfront, to remove it. Some have> removed it; Black refuses to remove it, or even acknowledge my requests.
Seems like a copyright issue to me -- but don't hold your breath waiting
for Don to do the right thing. I guess I'm a little bitter because he
woudln't let me post in the white nationalist listserv because I don't
agree with him. So much for the right to free speech.
--
Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
Dave Harman OBC
In <jeannek-ya0230600...@wave.rio.com> jea...@rio.com (Jeanne Kowalewski) writes:
! In article <511inp$a...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>, bb...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA
! (Milton Kleim) wrote:
!
! Keep your butt low and keep speaking from your heart, Milt. I commend you
! for continuing to stand for what you believe is right.
Gee, and how much you wanted to kill him a few months ago! What a fair
anti-racist!
Instead, he should keep a high profile. I'd like to hear more of him
before he fully goes one way or the other. It's interesting. There's
other anti-NA racists, just because he quit doesn't make him anti-racist!
There can't be enough free thinking racists.
Dave Harman OBC
In <512tb9$3...@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> it...@ix.netcom.com(Anthony B. James) writes:
! how the hell do drunken skinheads play into your never ending babble?
! you know, personally, i am a skinhead, and i spend a majority of my
! time on this hell hole called earth, drunk, but you know, i could give
! a fuck less regardless about you or Mr. Kleim, please, fuck off.
Not all drunken skinheads are as careless of higher values than you
claim to be. In fact, the very point that you're trying to make
proves that youy do care about higher values, thus proving that
wasted youth are not necessarily wasted youth.
Anthony B. James
In <qutDxJ...@netcom.com> q...@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) writes:
>
>In <50sib4$r...@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> it...@ix.netcom.com(Anthony
B. James) writes:
>
>! >Anti-racists commit over 99% of acts of violence every year that
racists
>! >are the victim of. Racists commit only one hundred acts of
violence a
>! >year, and many racists are falsely convicted every year because of
>! >political persecution by anti-racists in power.
>!
>! gee, do racists have a quota for acts of violence? what, do they get
>! overtime for commiting more than a hundred acts of violence every
year?
>! fuck off, stop cross posting
>
>Just showing that anti-racists are vastly more violent than racists.
you know, i dont really give a fuck either way, and i probably commit
more acts of violence than any statistics you may have for either, so
put that in your pipe and smoke it, moron.
bullseye
Anthony B. James
James) writes:
>
>! how the hell do drunken skinheads play into your never ending
babble?
>! you know, personally, i am a skinhead, and i spend a majority of my
>! time on this hell hole called earth, drunk, but you know, i could
give
>! a fuck less regardless about you or Mr. Kleim, please, fuck off.
>
>Not all drunken skinheads are as careless of higher values than you
>claim to be. In fact, the very point that you're trying to make
>proves that youy do care about higher values, thus proving that
>wasted youth are not necessarily wasted youth.
did i say i was wasted youth? no, i said i dont give a fuck about you
or mr. kleim, because simply, no matter what either of you, or in
factanyone like you may or may not do, myself and my friends will
continue to live our lives the way we do every day, so fuck off
Dave Harman OBC
In <511inp$a...@freenet-news.carleton.ca> bb...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim) writes:
! > I cannot find the Barricade edition stocked in any bookstores, the
! > ability to order it is not good enough.
!
! I've found it in several "normal" bookstores. WHERE are you looking?
Cody's, said to be the largest independant bookstore in California, a
large Barnes & Noble, Tower Records, and some other places that have
a lot of gun magazines and Loompanic books. They offer to order it for
me, but that's not the point. The point of the whole shenannigan was to
distribute the book like other mainstream books, yet I see stuff in all
those stores that have only a few thousand copies distributed versus
The Turner Diaries already having many more times that number sold.
! > Why not instead go and attempt to advertise in any periodical that makes
! > the pretense of supporting free speech?
!
! Well, I shock myself when I say this, but I'm now convinced that _the
! Turner Diaries_ is an _abuse_ of free speech, even as interpreted by the
! Founding Fathers (whom in my book count more than modern legal
! "theorists"). Publications have a legitimate justification for not
! publicizing it. But, there is also a case to be made, as Lyle Stuart did,
! that dissemination of the book has greater positive effect, than does
! suppressing it. The more normal people (i.e., those who are not bitter at
! society -- as I was -- or loony, or even totally fucking nuts) who read
! the book and are absolutely repulsed by the base hatred (no, I didn't
! believe it was a book of "love for one's Race" when I was in the
! "movement," either) and mad schemes and dreams within it's covers, the
! better. The greater awareness of the threat to not only non-Whites, but
! Aryans who don't share the author's "vision," the greater potential that
! the "vision" will not be realized (yet again), even in small scale.
Hating the enemies of the race is currently part of love of the race.
And how does the book violate free speech? There's nothing crazy in it.
! You might want to ask William Pierce and George Burdi what they think
! about your suggestion regarding the first and last items... [take into
! account Pierce's doubling of the sale price of TTD, and Burdi's
! self-manufactured "White Man's Code of Honor" prohibition against copying
! his CDs...]
Actually, raising the price is a good sign, whatever the market will
bear, they should of did it instead of merchandising the copyright.
Part of the idea is to raise money. And what I meant was the one
can support the Tuner Diaries and Hunter etc., without supporting the
authors or orgaizations involved.
! As for my _National Socialism Primer_, obviously I no longer advance it as
! a legitimate and realistic political tome. In fact, I have requested
No, it's not obvious. In the last few months you rejected NA and
skinheads, but that says nothing in the big picture about your
world vision. It'd be great to be able to reject an old crowd and
continue the same viewpoints. Same view, different ways. May I
recommend the genius of Alfred Rosenberg?
Andrew Mathis
q...@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) wrote:
That's utter bullshit, David. My dad is a Jew and he supports this
very same plan.
How is racism related to progessive economics?
Andrew
Horse
In article <qutDxJ...@netcom.com>, q...@netcom.com says...
>
>In <50sib4$r...@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> it...@ix.netcom.com(Anthony B.
>
>! >Anti-racists commit over 99% of acts of violence every year that
racists
>! >are the victim of. Racists commit only one hundred acts of violence a
>! >year, and many racists are falsely convicted every year because of
>! >political persecution by anti-racists in power.
>!
>! gee, do racists have a quota for acts of violence? what, do they get
>! overtime for commiting more than a hundred acts of violence every year?
>! fuck off, stop cross posting
>
>Just showing that anti-racists are vastly more violent than racists.
How the fuck do you determine a statistic like that...you can't! get a
fucking life you moronic troll!
--
*Cheers*
Horse
"who's always on the piss? B.S.S.C.!"
D.C. United... 14 and 15! There's no stopping us now!
Trendy Wankers Don't Scare Me!
PUNXKIN
Maybe the fact that there are way more non-racists than racists in the
world have something to do with those statistics. Just a thought.
PUNXKIN
Anthony B. James
thanks for the back up horse
cheers,
Bullseye
Daniel Keren
bb...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim) writes:
# I don't imagine very many "anti-racists" give a shit what
# happens to me, being blinded by base hatred as they are.
Message-ID: <1993Dec16....@msus1.msus.edu>
From: her...@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU [Kleim]
> I am an admirer of Adolf Hitler. I embrace National Socialism.
> I would do so even if the Holocaust *were* fact, which I
> honestly believe it is not. I would do so even if Hitler and
> his system had killed *60* million Jews.
<end quote>
Why, who could *possibly* dislike someone who writes
stuff like this? Anyway, Milt, thanks for the quote. It
will be used extensively when discussing the true nature
of "Holocaust revisionism". A true classic.
-Danny Keren.
David VeLar
I couldn't help but laugh! 99% percent of crimes are committed anti
racists. Oh but get this! 99.99% of all crimes are committed by
people who do not own a red 1996 ferrari. OH and here's one 99% of
all crimes are committed by people who do NOT live in Denver,
COlorado...
SOOOOO WHAT!
I guess the rest of the world should become racist, buy red ferrari's
and move to colorado in order to drop the crime rates.
RACISTS LISTEN:
We don't care about what you want in the world. You are in our way!
Your desires are irrelavent! If 99% of all crimes are committed by us
then let US worry about it. Well find you an island somewhere in the
pacific to live(CRIME FREE GUARANTEED!) which occupies only 1% of all
the land in the U.S. OKAY?!?
David VeLar
David VeLar
Milton Kleim
"Dave Harman" replies to me:
> Hating the enemies of the race is currently part of love of the race.
Tell me, Davey, who is an "enemy of the Race?" I dare you.
[re: _The Turner Diaries_]
> And how does the book violate free speech? There's nothing crazy in it.
^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^ ^^
My, oh my. Davey's condition is much more serious than I assumed.
Quoting from _the Turner Diaries_:
William Pierce on compassion --
"Not twenty feet away another woman lay motionless, her face covered with
blood and a gaping wound in the side of her head -- a horrible sight
which I can still see vividly every time I close my eyes.
"According to the latest estimate released, approximately 700 persons
were killed in the blast or subsequently died in the wreckage....
"...{T}here is no way we can destroy the System without hurting many
thousands of innocent people -- no way." (TTD, Chapter 6)
William Pierce on "justice" --
"Certainly, we must have made some mistakes today -- mistaken identities,
wrong addresses, false accusations -- but once the executions began there
was no admitting to the possibility of mistakes. We deliberately created
the image of inexorability in the public mind." (TTD, Chapter 23)
William Pierce on "Racial Solidarity" --
"We fired all our missles at two targets: Israel and the Soviet Union
[sic]....What we lost, however, is substantial...nearly a fifth of the
White population of the country -- not to mention an unknown number of
millions of racial kinsmen in the Soviet Union." (TTD, Chapter 26)
William Pierce on humanity --
"If the Organization survives this contest, no Jew will -- anywhere.
We'll go to the uttermost ends of the earth to hunt down the last of
Satan's spawn." (TTD, Chapter 27)
William Pierce on Environmentalism --
"Therefore, the Organization resorted to a combination of chemical,
biological, and radiological means, on an enormous scale, to deal with
the problem [ostensibly to stop the Chinese from invading Europe -- ed].
Over a period of four years some 16 million square miles of the earth's
surface, from the Ural Mountains to the Pacific and from the Arctic Ocean
to the Indian Ocean, were effectively sterilized. Thus the Great Eastern
Waste was created." (TTD, Epilog)
> ! You might want to ask William Pierce and George Burdi what they think
> ! about your suggestion regarding the first and last items... [take into
> ! account Pierce's doubling of the sale price of TTD, and Burdi's
> ! self-manufactured "White Man's Code of Honor" prohibition against copying
> ! his CDs...]
> Actually, raising the price is a good sign, whatever the market will
> bear, they should of did it instead of merchandising the copyright.
> Part of the idea is to raise money. And what I meant was the one
> can support the Tuner Diaries and Hunter etc., without supporting the
> authors or orgaizations involved.
Oh, can you? Why be a hypocrite about it?
_The Turner Diaries_ and _Hunter_ represent the genuine and _desired_
program of Dr. No and his organization, although in fictional form. He
couldn't very well come out in the booklet _What is the National
Alliance?_ and just state clearly, accurately, and explicitly what he
would really like to see happen, now could he?
Why would would anyone want to support a book, while not supporting the
organization that encompasses all the principles put forth in _the Turner
Diaries_ and _Hunter_?
As for jacking up the price over 100% overnight, well, what justified such
an increase, other than just pure greed? Did the copies of TTD Dr. No
had in his warehouse magically become more inherently valuable on Hitler's
birthday (that's when he issued the increase order)? I seem to recall
that greediness of this sort was considered a "Jewish" trait by many of my
Alliance "comrades."
> ! As for my _National Socialism Primer_, obviously I no longer advance it as
> ! a legitimate and realistic political tome. In fact, I have requested
> No, it's not obvious.
No, not for the illiterate and intellectually challenged...
> In the last few months you rejected NA and skinheads, but that says
> nothing in the big picture about your world vision. It'd be great to be
> able to reject an old crowd and continue the same viewpoints.
Certainly some of the points made in the _NSP_ I still consider valid.
The work as a whole I do not. Especially the revolutionary parts. As
I've said to a few, while some people in the "movement" talk about
"Blut und Boden," my family has PRACTICED it for centuries. Since
National Socialism borrows heavily from the old German "Blut und Boden"
concepts, certainly I cannot reject everything within the National
Socialism worldview without rejecting my family and our heritage, which I
will never do.
As I told Mike Boettcher and the NBC crew, I cannot and will not denounce
"racism," but I can and must denounce the hatred of the "movement." The
difference between "racism" and hatred is that the former is a natural and
almost universally-held (yet almost universally-denied) sentiment; the
latter is a sentiment based on jealousy, ignorance, and just plain
stupidity.
-- Milton John Kleim, Jr.
--
http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~bb748
Dave Harman OBC
! >! I've found it in several "normal" bookstores. WHERE are you looking?
! >
! >Cody's, said to be the largest independant bookstore in California, a
!
! Cody's has several copies in stock. If I knew your name, Skippy, I'd have
! them hold one for you.
Feeblehead. Skippy is my name. I'll do a round of checking again, this
time using the phone first.
BTW, it's not listed in the UCB catalog at all. This point was presence,
not the ability to order. If the Autobiography Of Malcom X was only
available by mail order, would it have sold millions of copies? No, it'd
have sold about as much as the Turner Diaries have sold.
Dave Harman OBC
In <5157ga$m...@freenet-news.carleton.ca> bb...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim) writes:
! Tell me, Davey, who is an "enemy of the Race?" I dare you.
The anti-racists. Names? Edgar Bronfman, Alan Greenberg, Harry
Oppenheimer, Rupert Murdoch, Jack Kemp, Ross Perot, Bill Gates, Bill
Clinton, the Theriots, the LeFraks, etc., whom, in the course of their
self-imposed duties, have gone above and beyond in the ongoing genocide
of the race. The white anti-racists can be reformed by stripping them
of assets and a long stint of hard labor, while the People of Color
will suffer to the degree of their lack of cooperation with the
victorious racists.
! > And how does the book violate free speech? There's nothing crazy in it.
! ^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^ ^^
Are you in touch with left oriented anti-racists such as presented
by People's Weekly World and Race Traitor, or, better yet, in person?
Hell, the mainstream of political thought has it that the race doesn't
even exist. We are dehumanized by the professional anti-racists.
Check out the extremes of the anti-racists before dismissing the
Turner Diaries as unreasonable, or an abuse of the republic.
! William Pierce on compassion --
!
! "Not twenty feet away another woman lay motionless, her face covered with
! blood and a gaping wound in the side of her head -- a horrible sight
! which I can still see vividly every time I close my eyes.
!
! "According to the latest estimate released, approximately 700 persons
! were killed in the blast or subsequently died in the wreckage....
!
! "...{T}here is no way we can destroy the System without hurting many
! thousands of innocent people -- no way." (TTD, Chapter 6)
!
! William Pierce on "justice" --
!
! "Certainly, we must have made some mistakes today -- mistaken identities,
! wrong addresses, false accusations -- but once the executions began there
! was no admitting to the possibility of mistakes. We deliberately created
! the image of inexorability in the public mind." (TTD, Chapter 23)
!
! William Pierce on "Racial Solidarity" --
!
! "We fired all our missles at two targets: Israel and the Soviet Union
! [sic]....What we lost, however, is substantial...nearly a fifth of the
! White population of the country -- not to mention an unknown number of
! millions of racial kinsmen in the Soviet Union." (TTD, Chapter 26)
!
! William Pierce on humanity --
!
! "If the Organization survives this contest, no Jew will -- anywhere.
! We'll go to the uttermost ends of the earth to hunt down the last of
! Satan's spawn." (TTD, Chapter 27)
!
! William Pierce on Environmentalism --
!
! "Therefore, the Organization resorted to a combination of chemical,
! biological, and radiological means, on an enormous scale, to deal with
! the problem [ostensibly to stop the Chinese from invading Europe -- ed].
! Over a period of four years some 16 million square miles of the earth's
! surface, from the Ural Mountains to the Pacific and from the Arctic Ocean
! to the Indian Ocean, were effectively sterilized. Thus the Great Eastern
! Waste was created." (TTD, Epilog)
All mere acts of war justified by the circumstances as presented by the
Turner Diaries. We are not in a declared war, we are being exterminated
by peaceful means. Reproduction is the first goal for racists. We have
a lot to learn from People of Color. They taught us in grade school
that tactics are never absolute, that pragmaticism is the way to succeed.
Agreed.
! _The Turner Diaries_ and _Hunter_ represent the genuine and _desired_
! program of Dr. No and his organization, although in fictional form. He
! couldn't very well come out in the booklet _What is the National
! Alliance?_ and just state clearly, accurately, and explicitly what he
! would really like to see happen, now could he?
Yes, he could, good idea.
! Why would would anyone want to support a book, while not supporting the
! organization that encompasses all the principles put forth in _the Turner
! Diaries_ and _Hunter_?
Support of the idealogy, disbelief in the tactics. I like the idea
presented by Mr. Pierce or Mr. Strom about setting up an alternative
media network, an idea seemingly contradicted by merchandising
copyrights. Profitably selling the already printed books to whomever
will buy it is great, strengthening the network, but the copyright
itself, risky. Hopefully, they'll quit doing it before starting in
on other copyrights. Capitalists cannot be trusted to follow the
economic principles as presented by the financial press.
! As for jacking up the price over 100% overnight, well, what justified such
! an increase, other than just pure greed?
What's wrong with raising funds? Raising the price even more and
selling it hardbound with more aggressive advertising would have been
better than leaking the copyright. I've only seen two ads of the old
edition, and both in gun magazines. Advertising in any periodical that
operates under a pretense of free speech is an idea.
! > In the last few months you rejected NA and skinheads, but that says
! > nothing in the big picture about your world vision. It'd be great to be
! > able to reject an old crowd and continue the same viewpoints.
!
! Certainly some of the points made in the _NSP_ I still consider valid.
! The work as a whole I do not. Especially the revolutionary parts. As
! I've said to a few, while some people in the "movement" talk about
! "Blut und Boden," my family has PRACTICED it for centuries. Since
! National Socialism borrows heavily from the old German "Blut und Boden"
! concepts, certainly I cannot reject everything within the National
! Socialism worldview without rejecting my family and our heritage, which I
! will never do.
!
! As I told Mike Boettcher and the NBC crew, I cannot and will not denounce
! "racism," but I can and must denounce the hatred of the "movement." The
! difference between "racism" and hatred is that the former is a natural and
! almost universally-held (yet almost universally-denied) sentiment; the
! latter is a sentiment based on jealousy, ignorance, and just plain
! stupidity.
Semantics. Loving the race, hating anti-racists, hating those who are
not of the race, are all racist, it's not a requirement to be all of
that together. Some would even say that siring or bearing white children
is racist, it's certainly a birth war that we are collectively up against.
But, we will not be left alone, by anybody, there's no choice in the matter.
Dave Harman OBC
In <joelr.412...@winternet.com> jo...@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) writes:
! http://www.winternet.com/~joelr
! http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0380973227/joelrosenbergA/
! ...and for the last bit of geekitry: to receive the latest version of my FAQ,
Joel Rosenberg, an antidote to anti-racist beliefs.
Dave Harman OBC
In <514q8k$j...@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> it...@ix.netcom.com(Anthony B. James) writes:
! did i say i was wasted youth? no, i said i dont give a fuck about you
! or mr. kleim, because simply, no matter what either of you, or in
! factanyone like you may or may not do, myself and my friends will
! continue to live our lives the way we do every day, so fuck off
Not caring about the community at large is a wasted attitude.
Dave Harman OBC
In <514b0s$4...@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> r...@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) writes:
! In article <512cjl$k...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
! Milton Kleim <bb...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
!
! >I don't imagine very many "anti-racists" give a shit what happens to me,
! >being blinded by base hatred as they are. But neither do I care if they
! >use the matter for their own political agenda; most of what has been said
! >by my former opponents is true.
!
! Actually, Mr. Kleim, I think you are in error here. I think that many
! of us anti-racists (I see no need for quotes) are concerned about your
Quotes demean the terms.
! well-being. I do not agree with your racist political views which
! apparently have not changed, but I respect the courage it has taken to
! make the changes that you have made. I hope that one day you will
! change more of your views. I realize that you probably don't think that
! will happen, but a couple of years ago you wouldn't have thought that
! you'd leave the "movement" either. I have hope for your continued
! growth and sincerely hope that it is not interrupted by the the actions
! of those who you once thought were friends.
Only a few months ago, anti-racists advocated the death of Milton Kleim.
What changed? A subhuman one day, and now a human being?
Racists have an open mind, how else did we become racists? It is
primarily anti-racists who violate racists, including the ones who
are claimed to be threatening the likes of Mr. Kleim. That he would
prefer it to be otherwise, does not change the mentality of the
culprits.
I hope that he sires many white children, of the ethnic group of
his desires. All whites are friends, all People of Color enemies.
John M. Stafford
In article <qutDxL...@netcom.com>, q...@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) wrote:
> How nice, great! But, we will not be left alone by the powers that be.
> Your crime rate is murdering us alive. We control nothing but the
> bodies we carry our brains in. We want more, and that means racial
> hatred. But do make your offer to the United Nations. If only you
> had the power to carry it out!
Must be one hell of a small body to carry a brain of your size.
***********************************************************************
* As we head into the MLS home-stretch... *
* Tampa is in first, but has never beaten D.C. United in three tries *
* D.C. in second mopping up Tampa & the Metros on that plastic pitch *
* Well, the Geo Metros, the Cheesalution, and Crew *
* can all just fight it out for last place. *
* *
* See it for yourself, section 121, RFK Stadium: *
* Sept. 17, 7:30pm v. Cheesalution *
* Sept. 21, 7:30pm v. Colorado Rapidly Declining *
* *
* Cheese supporters get your tix, and save $$, by calling *
* Matt Wayland in D.C. United Group Sales at 703-478-6600. Tell 'em *
* the BSSC sent you. *
* *
* D.C. United supporters lets get our own bus for that first round *
* playoff game in the plastic swamp. Then after wiping the Geos on *
* our cleats lets "Shave the Poodle" and see the playoffs in Tampa, *
* fly for ONLY $40 round trip on Delta Airlines. *
***********************************************************************
* GET BOMBED! *
* The Summit Point, West Virginia Scooter Rally *
* September 27-29, 1996, Summit Point Raceway *
***********************************************************************
Dave Harman OBC
In <32365B...@umich.edu> David VeLar <ve...@umich.edu> writes:
! then let US worry about it. Well find you an island somewhere in the
! pacific to live(CRIME FREE GUARANTEED!) which occupies only 1% of all
! the land in the U.S. OKAY?!?
Anthony B. James
i still dont see where you get off with this combination belief of
social status and race, in addition, whats with this bullshit of you
being a redneck, trust me mate, my whole family are rednecks and no
more than 10 of em have seen an actuall working computer in their
lives, in my personall opinion, you are small minded, confused little
man, fuck off
Anthony B. James
since when are people who i have never met, who i strongly disagree
with, and who have no bearing in my everyday life the community at
large? try the moral minority, the guardians of their own freespeach,
the securers of their own personall freedoms, well fuck that.
Anthony B. James
ooohhhh, so thats why both hitler executed so many of white skin color,
now i get it, twit.
Keith Morrison
Milton Kleim wrote:
> Well, I shock myself when I say this, but I'm now convinced that _the
> Turner Diaries_ is an _abuse_ of free speech, even as interpreted by the
> Founding Fathers (whom in my book count more than modern legal
> "theorists"). Publications have a legitimate justification for not
> publicizing it. But, there is also a case to be made, as Lyle Stuart did,
> that dissemination of the book has greater positive effect, than does
> suppressing it. The more normal people (i.e., those who are not bitter at
> society -- as I was -- or loony, or even totally fucking nuts) who read
> the book and are absolutely repulsed by the base hatred (no, I didn't
> believe it was a book of "love for one's Race" when I was in the
> "movement," either) and mad schemes and dreams within it's covers, the
> better. The greater awareness of the threat to not only non-Whites, but
> Aryans who don't share the author's "vision," the greater potential that
> the "vision" will not be realized (yet again), even in small scale.
[shaking head in disbelief]
You know, some days the world just goes right weird.
And restores your faith in humanity.
--
Keith Morrison
t0...@Unb.ca
Milton Kleim
Danny Keren replies to me:
><end quote>
The seasons change, the fields change, moods change...even "Nazis" like
me, change. But, it's apparent one thing still has not changed, and
that's the hateful hearts of some of my former (?) opponents.
Look, Danny, I don't really care what you think of me. If you want to be
a spiteful and vengeful bird, as your intellectual dishonesty here shows,
well, you be that way.
Yes, I said the above, and as I've explained, I regret those statements
which were said in anger and resentment. I have no problem that Nizkor
will offer my writings for public view indefinitely -- in fact, I have a
link to the archive on my webpage. But, it reveals a sinister vindictive-
ness on your part to present the above quote, said long, long ago, when I
had a very different mindset, as though it represents something I believe
today. I don't stand by that statement, as I can't. Your citation of it
in the manner you have reflects more on you than it does on me -- it
illustrates your dishonesty and hateful heart.
Yes, things change, even the heart of the infamous "Net Nazi" Milton
Kleim. I can now see beyond the ideologies of my past, and don't draw
lines of "friend" or "foe" according to worldview and heritage.
But not everything changes...
Danny Keren remains a man driven by base, negative emotions...hate,
resentment, vanity.
Rich Graves
Anthony B. James wrote:
>
> /q...@netcom.com/:j writes:
>
> >Your crime rate is murdering us alive. We control nothing but the
> >bodies we carry our brains in. We want more, and that means racial
> >hatred. But do make your offer to the United Nations. If only you
> >had the power to carry it out!
>
> i still dont see where you get off with this combination belief of
> social status and race, in addition, whats with this bullshit of you
> being a redneck, trust me mate, my whole family are rednecks and no
> more than 10 of em have seen an actuall working computer in their
> lives, in my personall opinion, you are small minded, confused little
> man, fuck off
Yeah, you tell him. What a fuckhead redneck wannabe.
Followups set.
-rich
Rich Graves
alt.skinheads removed.
bb...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim) writes:
>
>Yes, things change, even the heart of the infamous "Net Nazi" Milton
>Kleim. I can now see beyond the ideologies of my past, and don't draw
>lines of "friend" or "foe" according to worldview and heritage.
>
>But not everything changes...
>
>Danny Keren remains a man driven by base, negative emotions...hate,
>resentment, vanity.
Not to mention ice cream. I'm reminded of Fresh's web page. "Danny Keren
is a guy. Danny Keren eats food."
So if I understand you correctly, only Milton Kleim is ever entitled to
get "angry." Only Milton Kleim is entitled to the hypocrisy of having
non-Aryan friends, knowing that they're decent people, and still saying
that the races should be kept separate. Only Milton Kleim is entitled to
question people's motives and characters.
No, I don't like everything Danny Keren has ever said, and I certainly
don't like what Milton Kleim says, but neither am I proud of everything
I've ever said, so I don't decide to hate people like Milton Kleim just
did.
You want everyone should come over and kiss your ass (you've seen the URL)
because you say "I regret misleading people with my propaganda"? You
really haven't retracted anything, not specifically. Not that I'm
requiring you to -- you have every right to, as you said, be left alone.
Milton Kleim is entitled to some time to himself, and he deserves to be
treated like a human being, but he's not entitled to everyone's respect
and admiration because they *might* have read a few things. Milton Kleim
is not the center of the universe, and you can't expect *everyone* to care
what he thinks.
If you want to be left alone, if you want to be where everyone loves you,
stay home.
-rich
Rich Graves
bb...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim) says:
> Certainly some of the points made in the _NSP_ I still consider valid.
> The work as a whole I do not. Especially the revolutionary parts.
You know, Milton, if you want people to take you seriously, and
certainly if you want IMO reasonable people like Danny Keren to "stop
hating you," you're going to have to be a lot more specific than this.
You can't have your cake and eat it too.
You *do* have the right to withdraw, as you had been doing, and think.
You will not be forgotten, but you will not be bothered, either. Of course
I would prefer if you retracted the whole NSP and racism, because I think
that would do a lot of good, but I'm certainly not demanding anything.
You're just one guy my age. You're not that important.
> As I've said to a few, while some people in the "movement" talk about
> "Blut und Boden," my family has PRACTICED it for centuries. Since
> National Socialism borrows heavily from the old German "Blut und Boden"
> concepts, certainly I cannot reject everything within the National
> Socialism worldview without rejecting my family and our heritage, which
> I will never do.
Family and heritage can mean a lot of things. Sometimes the only
honorable thing to do is to admit that you were wrong, and make amends.
> As I told Mike Boettcher and the NBC crew, I cannot and will not
> denounce "racism," but I can and must denounce the hatred of the
> "movement." The difference between "racism" and hatred is that the
> former is a natural and almost universally-held (yet almost
> universally-denied) sentiment; the latter is a sentiment based on
> jealousy, ignorance, and just plain stupidity.
How many angels can dance on that pin?
Sorry, I don't find anything at all natural about racism. In my
experience, curiosity is a stronger force than affinity. People grow by
learning. People learn best from diversity. You spent all that time on
anthropology and cultural synergy never came up?
Popper would have a field day with your almost "universally-held (yet
almost universally-denied)." What the hell?
Let's not mince words.
Race used to be a good indicator of a person's suitability as a friend,
because it correlated well with economic, social, and educational status.
Today, this is no longer true. Blacks, who used to be slaves or recently
freed, thus clearly undesirable as partners for whites, now graduate from
high school at the same rate as whites. There is still some disparity in
language and culture -- especially at the lower economic classes -- but
this is diminishing, and nearly nonexistent among the most highly
educated. Any lingering correlations between race and "suitability" are
the result of historical patterns of privilege, not inherent traits.
Racism, as an adaptive trait, is obsolete. It has become maladaptive,
because it restricts your options. That is why society is evolving away
from racism.
What purpose -- other than appeals to "God," which seem out of character
for you -- do you believe that racism serves? Sorry, for me, defensive
reaction to anti-white racism, real or imagined (there is some real),
doesn't cut it -- they should change too. I'm talking about my morality.
Please explain to me why you believe I should be racist. I seem to have
done reasonably well without being racist. What am I missing?
-rich
Dave Harman OBC
In <5177qq$o...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> it...@ix.netcom.com(Anthony B. James) writes:
! i still dont see where you get off with this combination belief of
! social status and race, in addition, whats with this bullshit of you
! being a redneck, trust me mate, my whole family are rednecks and no
! more than 10 of em have seen an actuall working computer in their
! lives, in my personall opinion, you are small minded, confused little
! man, fuck off
Fuck off for hating rednecks. And lack of redneck status never
precludes desires to protect the racial health of the nation.
Dave Harman OBC
In <514qap$q...@news1.panix.com> fr...@panix.com (Andrew Mathis) writes:
! >About how you want to abolish inheritance of property? I support that
! >100%. It would be great for the state to talk away all of the rich's
! >money. I also support sharply reducing capital gains and making the
! >entire tax system progressive to suffocate the rich. But only racists
! >fully support a progressive economic system.
!
! That's utter bullshit, David. My dad is a Jew and he supports this
! very same plan.
I'm glad he does, like you and I. But I mean confiscating Jewish assets
too. That's racist. And it'll require a racist state for the guts to
deny the former ruling classes their supposed right to exploit. For joy!
Anthony B. James
did i say i hate rednecks, no i said my whole family are rednecks, i
said you are not a redneck, i said, you are a scared, confused,
paranoid little man.
Jason Smith
Jeanne Kowalewski (jea...@rio.com) writes:
> Keep your butt low and keep speaking from your heart, Milt. I commend you
> for continuing to stand for what you believe is right.
Funny - people weren't commending him before. What I'd like to
know, and I'm well aware I seem to have missed alot around here, is why
Milton is denouncing the movement with as much vehemency as he promoted
it with. What's with the turnaround? And in case people haven't noticed
- I'm one of the ones who has experienced general disenchantment with the
movement, including Milton's megalomania ("I pioneered the right wings'
use of the 'Net" - we were both there, remember?) - I bailed long ago,
without, however, losing my personal beliefs. I'm still a hardened
zenophobe, but an intelligent and respectful one. I still feel injustices
being done to people of my ethnicity, and frankly, they touch me more than
injustices being done to others, but that doesn't mean I can't be human,
and take into account the suffering of others. A little political and
philosophical evolution can go a long way. And yes, the 'movement' (more
akin to those within my bowels) is full of crazies. Violent lunatics.
Conspiracy-theory-ridden nuts. I, myself, find it difficult to entertain a
conversation with many a white supremacist - hell, it's nigh near
impossible. Even those whom are intelligent - and there are quite a few -
are a little twisted, but that's just my opinion. Anyhow, enough of the
rant. I'm still racist, always was, always will be. I still wear a
celtic cross around my neck. I just wanted to know why the turnaround?
Why the disenchantment? Have you learned what I knew when I met you? The
'movement' is full of crackpots, and until such time as a legitimate
movement is formed with the interests of the people at heart - not their
own - I'm out of the loop. I still have many people whom I consider
friends in the 'movement.' If I consider them as such, it's because there
is more to their person than spouting 'nigger' every other word. Even
those among my friends know what I'm saying - hell, they make a point of
recruiting loonies just to increase their numbers - and because they're
easy to indoctrinate and control. This could get more interesting, but
I'm out of line by now.
Jason
Daniel Keren
bb...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim) writes:
[About his article of Dec. 1993, which I quoted]
# The seasons change, the fields change, moods change...even
# "Nazis" like me, change.
That's good to hear.
# But, it's apparent one thing still has not changed, and
# that's the hateful hearts of some of my former (?) opponents.
No. If you have truly changed, my opinion on you will change
too - whether you care about it or not.
# If you want to be a spiteful and vengeful bird,
No, I don't; it's not my style. You can ask those on this
group who know me personally to some extent, as Jamie McCarthy
and Rich Graves.
# Yes, I said the above, and as I've explained, I regret those
# statements which were said in anger and resentment.
Well, this is certainly a surprise for me, I have to say; I do
believe, however, that people can change, more so young people (no
patronizing intended - this is a statement of fact). If you
have indeed changed, that's good news in my opinion, and I wish
you the best of luck in your new life.
I can't tell, from the little you have written, what is the
extent of this change; which, if any, of your previous
opinions you still hold; but you have taken, it seems, a
step in the right direction. And the first step is probably
the hardest.
# But, it reveals a sinister vindictiveness on your part to
# present the above quote, said long, long ago, when I had a very
# different mindset, as though it represents something I believe
# today.
Agreed. It would be interesting, however, to know what made you
adopt these beliefs in the first place.
# Danny Keren remains a man driven by base, negative emotions...hate,
# resentment, vanity.
Not really, as this article should indicate.
Posted/e-mailed.
-Danny Keren.
Jamie McCarthy
> >> I am an admirer of Adolf Hitler. I embrace National Socialism.
> >> I would do so even if the Holocaust *were* fact, which I
> >> honestly believe it is not. I would do so even if Hitler and
> >> his system had killed *60* million Jews.
> I don't stand by that statement, as I can't. Your citation of it
> in the manner you have reflects more on you than it does on me -- it
> illustrates your dishonesty and hateful heart.
Please explain, Mr. Kleim, why you don't stand by that statement
anymore. The more you tell us about how and why you have changed
your views, the more we will understand.
Posted/emailed.
--
Jamie McCarthy http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
ja...@voyager.net Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/
Hate mail will be posted.
Joel Rosenberg
>Yes, things change, even the heart of the infamous "Net Nazi" Milton
>Kleim. I can now see beyond the ideologies of my past, and don't draw
>lines of "friend" or "foe" according to worldview and heritage.
But, Milton, that's just the problem. Your present writings make it clear
that, at base, you've changed very little indeed.
One demonstration of that is, paradoxically enough, that you trumpet as great
moral changes ones that are largely tactical and cosmetic.
Yes, you've put some social distance between yourself from the trailer trash
nazi types, or at least tried to. But really, that's about it. You haven't,
by your own admission, abandoned racism and bigotry, just overt naziism.
There are some who will call that a vast improvement. I'm not sure that it
makes much of a difference at all.
Well, to your credit, at least you're not Schoedel, pretending to be able to
take words back.
---------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.winternet.com/~joelr
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0380973227/joelrosenbergA/
...and for the last bit of geekitry: to receive the latest version of my FAQ,
send me a message with the phrase "your FAQ" anywhere in the subject line.
Andrew Mathis
q...@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) wrote:
David, are you stoned or stupid?
Why is it racist to confiscate any assets, Jewish or not?
My Dad happens to be a rather wealthy man; but I'd like nothing better
than for him to spend his retirement spending every penny and for him
to leave me nothing. Or, on the other hand, if his (and my) idea of
an inheritance tax took effect, I wouldn't see it anyway, now would I?
Now what does any of that have to do with racism?
Andrew
=================================================================
What's new with Frente?--http://www.nj.com/maxwells/july96/frente.html
The Homepage that made Milwaukee famous--http://pages.nyu.edu/~aem0608
"Peyno derech Hashem"
--Yeshayahu 40:3
Milton Kleim
Jason Smith replies to Jeanne Kowalewski:
>> Keep your butt low and keep speaking from your heart, Milt. I commend you
>> for continuing to stand for what you believe is right.
> Funny - people weren't commending him before.
Why should they have been? They and I were on opposite sides of an
ideological war, a meaningless and foolish ideological war. I'm just
thankful that I've learned that so many of my "enemies" were really no
enemies at all. I can actually _converse_ with them -- they're _human_
(gasp!).
> What I'd like to know, and I'm well aware I seem to have missed alot
> around here, is why Milton is denouncing the movement with as much
> vehemency as he promoted it with. What's with the turnaround?
You're welcome to visit my website, as everyone is welcome to. If you
still have questions, feel free to send 'em my way.
> And in case people haven't noticed - I'm one of the ones who has
> experienced general disenchantment with the movement, including
> Milton's megalomania ("I pioneered the right wings' use of the 'Net" - we
> were both there, remember?) - I bailed long ago, without, however, losing
> my personal beliefs.
Hold on now, Jason. I always gave you credit for being part of "the
trio": Art LeBouthillier (who predates both of us), and the two of us.
Art left (temporarily) because he lost access and interest in the
conventional "movement," and you just left (real reasons below). Les
Griswold came on board about the time you left, and quickly overshadowed
any contributions you made.
The fact of the matter is that you are showing jealousy here. You know
what, you can have the vain glory if you wish, Jason. It's all yours now.
Your "disillusionment" with the "movement" had nothing to do with its
failings, including my real and imagined ego-trips. You whitewash the
fact that you were hounded into silence by the Canadian authorities. You
didn't _voluntarily_ leave.
That's the difference between you and I, Jason. My departure from the
"movement" had to do with numerous bad experiences, seeing first hand its
dishonesty, depravity, sometimes insanity, and culminating with three
intense personal circumstances. Yours just had to do with capitulating
when the police came a knockin'.
> I'm still a hardened zenophobe, but an intelligent and respectful one.
Canada's "hate crimes" statutes help remind you to be a good boy, too.
> I'm still racist, always was, always will be.
That's fine. At least you're being honest with this. The vast majority
of racists deny the fact they are.
> I just wanted to know why the turnaround? Why the disenchantment? Have
> you learned what I knew when I met you?
Do you really believe anyone is going to buy this whitewash of your
character? If you "knew" this, you certainly didn't show it. I'm sure
Mr. Mcvay could illustrate this fact for you.
Yes, I discovered the hard way that the "movement" is not an association
of good people with its handful of loonies, but rather a corrupt
"movement" of loonies with a handful of misguided idealists.
> I still have many people whom I consider friends in the 'movement.'
As do I. But, I've found to my displeasure that so, so many of my
"friends" were no friends at all, now that they stand by ideology instead
of friendship, and skeedaddle away when I come 'round. Friendship and
loyalty are completely separate from ideology and politics. Perhaps my
former "friends" are actually afraid that what I speak is the truth, and
by listening to what I have to to say, by corresponding or speaking with
me, they, too, will begin to accept what was so hard for me to accept.
More and more I'm seeing that the National Alliance, as well as the
"movement" itself has strong characteristics of a cult, with the
prerequisite mind-manipulation and coercive techniques.
Since I actually give a damn about a lot of people still in the
"movement," it's so sad for me to realize they really _don't_ have a
choice whether to leave or not. It's like telling a drug-addict to "just
quit, why don't you?" In fact, Harold Covington, who nows goes by the
pseudonym "Winston Smith," compared racialist ideology/the "movement" to
an addiction for heroin in a recent message to me.
--
http://www.ncf.carleton./ca/~bb748
Joel Rosenberg
>More and more I'm seeing that the National Alliance, as well as the
>"movement" itself has strong characteristics of a cult, with the
>prerequisite mind-manipulation and coercive techniques.
It is better to have a clouded eye for the obvious than no eye at all.
Dave Harman OBC
In <5195ji$g...@news1.panix.com> fr...@panix.com (Andrew Mathis) writes:
! >I'm glad he does, like you and I. But I mean confiscating Jewish assets
! >too. That's racist. And it'll require a racist state for the guts to
! >deny the former ruling classes their supposed right to exploit. For joy!
!
! Why is it racist to confiscate any assets, Jewish or not?
Many anti-racists want to do it too, but racists are the ones to
actually instigate the confiscation of assets of the capitalists.
Dave Harman OBC
! Mileage varies. As for me, I'm not at all sure how I'd feel about his fate
! were Kleim to suffer some grievous harm, although I suspect it would be
! somewhere between mild regret and indifference.
The insensitivity of anti-racists.
Dave Harman OBC
In <5177ml$n...@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> it...@ix.netcom.com(Anthony B. James) writes:
! >his desires. All whites are friends, all People of Color enemies.
!
! ooohhhh, so thats why both hitler executed so many of white skin color,
! now i get it, twit.
non-sequitor.
Philip Kasiecki
...the more they stay the same...
Phil "basic fact of life" Kasiecki
--
Philip T. Kasiecki Co-op: pkas...@pictel.com
Electrical and Computer Engineering NU: pkas...@lynx.dac.neu.edu
Northeastern University Class of 1999
"Hate soon consumes itself, because hate eats up oxygen
and other life-giving properties. Hate can't yield
anything of worth or value, not for very long anyway."
"The price we've paid (for hate) is measured in big
things--lost joy and unrealized understanding, and in
our stupid refusal to see each other's beauty, or to
detect each other's goodness and potential."
- both by Patricia Raybon, "My First White Friend"
Andrew Mathis
Daniel Mittleman
q...@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) wrote:
>In <514b0s$4...@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> r...@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) writes:
>! In article <512cjl$k...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
>! Milton Kleim <bb...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>!
>! >I don't imagine very many "anti-racists" give a shit what happens to me,
>! >being blinded by base hatred as they are. But neither do I care if they
>! >use the matter for their own political agenda; most of what has been said
>! >by my former opponents is true.
>!
>! Actually, Mr. Kleim, I think you are in error here. I think that many
>! of us anti-racists (I see no need for quotes) are concerned about your
>Quotes demean the terms.
>! well-being. I do not agree with your racist political views which
>! apparently have not changed, but I respect the courage it has taken to
>! make the changes that you have made. I hope that one day you will
>! change more of your views. I realize that you probably don't think that
>! will happen, but a couple of years ago you wouldn't have thought that
>! you'd leave the "movement" either. I have hope for your continued
>! growth and sincerely hope that it is not interrupted by the the actions
>! of those who you once thought were friends.
>Only a few months ago, anti-racists advocated the death of Milton Kleim.
>What changed? A subhuman one day, and now a human being?
Who advocated Milt's death? I must have missed that.
>Racists have an open mind, how else did we become racists? It is
Whoa, now there is some intersting Harman logic...
>primarily anti-racists who violate racists, including the ones who
>are claimed to be threatening the likes of Mr. Kleim. That he would
>prefer it to be otherwise, does not change the mentality of the
>culprits.
>I hope that he sires many white children, of the ethnic group of
>his desires. All whites are friends, all People of Color enemies.
So Harman... Ken McVay and Gord McFee are friends?
Farrakhan is an enemy?
You might want to adjust your tinfoil and get on the same wavelength
as your fellow loonies.
Daniel Mittleman
[posted and emailed]
bb...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim) wrote:
>Danny Keren replies to me:
>># I don't imagine very many "anti-racists" give a shit what
>># happens to me, being blinded by base hatred as they are.
>> Message-ID: <1993Dec16....@msus1.msus.edu>
>> From: her...@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU [Kleim]
>>> I am an admirer of Adolf Hitler. I embrace National Socialism.
>>> I would do so even if the Holocaust *were* fact, which I
>>> honestly believe it is not. I would do so even if Hitler and
>>> his system had killed *60* million Jews.
>><end quote>
>>Why, who could *possibly* dislike someone who writes
>>stuff like this? Anyway, Milt, thanks for the quote. It
>>will be used extensively when discussing the true nature
>>of "Holocaust revisionism". A true classic.
>The seasons change, the fields change, moods change...even "Nazis" like
>me, change. But, it's apparent one thing still has not changed, and
>that's the hateful hearts of some of my former (?) opponents.
>Look, Danny, I don't really care what you think of me. If you want to be
>a spiteful and vengeful bird, as your intellectual dishonesty here shows,
>well, you be that way.
>Yes, I said the above, and as I've explained, I regret those statements
>which were said in anger and resentment. I have no problem that Nizkor
>will offer my writings for public view indefinitely -- in fact, I have a
>link to the archive on my webpage. But, it reveals a sinister vindictive-
>ness on your part to present the above quote, said long, long ago, when I
>had a very different mindset, as though it represents something I believe
>today. I don't stand by that statement, as I can't. Your citation of it
>in the manner you have reflects more on you than it does on me -- it
>illustrates your dishonesty and hateful heart.
>Yes, things change, even the heart of the infamous "Net Nazi" Milton
>Kleim. I can now see beyond the ideologies of my past, and don't draw
>lines of "friend" or "foe" according to worldview and heritage.
>But not everything changes...
>Danny Keren remains a man driven by base, negative emotions...hate,
>resentment, vanity.
I have written previously about Danny Keren's criticisms of Milt Kleim
in the past. I have always been a bit uncomfortable as Danny has been
extremely critical of Kleim even when Kleim has backed down.
Since then, I have met Danny Keren and have found him to be a very
nice and genuine person. However, I still hold to my long term view
of this feud.
Milt Kleim is far from a person who I would want to date my sister
(and he probably wouldn't choose her anyway). However, Kleim has
always been intelligent, literate, and willing to at least plead nolo
contendre when backed into a corner. As he is now going through a
period of reconsideration in his life, it makes sense to me to give
him a little bit of slack and let him find himself.
Reprinting old posts (albeit accurate reprints) does little to move
Kleim forward in his reconsideration process. IMHO
Danny
Jean A Robards
In the neo-nazi and skinhead "scene" it has become common to denouce
slavery,genocide and what they call the "holohoax".I attack such
persons as poser-fascists and total wankers.
HAIL HITLER FOR SIX MILLION DEAD JEWS!!
"Kill kill fuck fuck"--Boyd Rice
Jeanne Kowalewski
In article <517g6v$g...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>, bb...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA
(Milton Kleim) wrote:
* Danny Keren replies to me:
*
* ># I don't imagine very many "anti-racists" give a shit what
* ># happens to me, being blinded by base hatred as they are.
*
* > Message-ID: <1993Dec16....@msus1.msus.edu>
* > From: her...@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU [Kleim]
*
* >> I am an admirer of Adolf Hitler. I embrace National Socialism.
* >> I would do so even if the Holocaust *were* fact, which I
* >> honestly believe it is not. I would do so even if Hitler and
* >> his system had killed *60* million Jews.
*
* ><end quote>
*
* >Why, who could *possibly* dislike someone who writes
* >stuff like this? Anyway, Milt, thanks for the quote. It
* >will be used extensively when discussing the true nature
* >of "Holocaust revisionism". A true classic.
*
* The seasons change, the fields change, moods change...even "Nazis" like
* me, change. But, it's apparent one thing still has not changed, and
* that's the hateful hearts of some of my former (?) opponents.
Give them time. You haven't been away from your former allies long enough
for some of us lib'ruls to trust you, Milt.
* Look, Danny, I don't really care what you think of me. If you want to be
* a spiteful and vengeful bird, as your intellectual dishonesty here shows,
* well, you be that way.
Give him time. Trust has to be earned, so please just stay true to yourself
and others will eventually see that you have changed.
* Yes, I said the above, and as I've explained, I regret those statements
* which were said in anger and resentment. I have no problem that Nizkor
* will offer my writings for public view indefinitely -- in fact, I have a
* link to the archive on my webpage. But, it reveals a sinister vindictive-
* ness on your part to present the above quote, said long, long ago, when I
* had a very different mindset, as though it represents something I believe
* today. I don't stand by that statement, as I can't. Your citation of it
* in the manner you have reflects more on you than it does on me -- it
* illustrates your dishonesty and hateful heart.
Give him time. He and others are skeptical of you right now, but that may
change for the better.
* Yes, things change, even the heart of the infamous "Net Nazi" Milton
* Kleim. I can now see beyond the ideologies of my past, and don't draw
* lines of "friend" or "foe" according to worldview and heritage.
Give others time to realise this. I know that people can change
dramatically within a short period of time, but others find it more
difficult to trust and forgive.
* But not everything changes...
Give it time. As long as there is life, there is opportunity for growth and
change. (After raising two teenagers, I know that anything is possible!)
* Danny Keren remains a man driven by base, negative emotions...hate,
* resentment, vanity.
Give each other time. You were passionate adversaries, and you may find it
difficult to put away your negative feelings for each other.
--
Rev. Jeanne K. | SISTER JEANNE!
Ordained Minister, ULC | Official Melchizedek Priest of McChurch
http://ulc.org/ulc/ | http://mcchurch.org
Prejudice is a raft onto which the shipwrecked mind clambers
and paddles to safety.
ã Ben Hecht
Dave Harman OBC
In <519e79$a...@freenet-news.carleton.ca> bb...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Milton Kleim) writes:
! ideological war, a meaningless and foolish ideological war. I'm just
! thankful that I've learned that so many of my "enemies" were really no
! enemies at all. I can actually _converse_ with them -- they're _human_
! (gasp!).
Idealogical war is the best type!
! > I'm still racist, always was, always will be.
!
! That's fine. At least you're being honest with this. The vast majority
! of racists deny the fact they are.
I'm a nazi racist and always will be.
! "movement" itself has strong characteristics of a cult, with the
! prerequisite mind-manipulation and coercive techniques.
Cults will never succeed.
! choice whether to leave or not. It's like telling a drug-addict to "just
! quit, why don't you?" In fact, Harold Covington, who nows goes by the
! pseudonym "Winston Smith," compared racialist ideology/the "movement" to
! an addiction for heroin in a recent message to me.
Is there a problem with that?
Milton Kleim
Danny Keren replies to me:
>[About his article of Dec. 1993, which I quoted]
># But, it's apparent one thing still has not changed, and
># that's the hateful hearts of some of my former (?) opponents.
>No. If you have truly changed, my opinion on you will change
>too - whether you care about it or not.
I'd much rather have you -- and everyone of my "enemies" -- as a Net
acquaintance, rather than an "enemy." However, it depends upon how much
change you're looking for in me. If denouncing the "movement," and
renouncing the advocacy of violence and hatred of "racial enemies" will
lead to this, then I am glad. However, if you insist I become some sort
of rabid "anti-racist," well, that won't be happening.
># Yes, I said the above, and as I've explained, I regret those
># statements which were said in anger and resentment.
>Well, this is certainly a surprise for me, I have to say; I do
>believe, however, that people can change, more so young people (no
>patronizing intended - this is a statement of fact). If you
>have indeed changed, that's good news in my opinion, and I wish
>you the best of luck in your new life.
Well, I thank you for your wishes. People can indeed change, especially
when unexpected events make them look at life in a very different way.
>I can't tell, from the little you have written, what is the
>extent of this change; which, if any, of your previous
>opinions you still hold; but you have taken, it seems, a
>step in the right direction. And the first step is probably
>the hardest.
Indeed it is. I hate being wrong, and hate more admitting I'm wrong.
:-) But humbled I was, and the admission of guilt and error was
necessary and unavoidable.
># But, it reveals a sinister vindictiveness on your part to
># present the above quote, said long, long ago, when I had a very
># different mindset, as though it represents something I believe
># today.
>Agreed. It would be interesting, however, to know what made you
>adopt these beliefs in the first place.
Well, since it seems I'm fielding questions from a lot of people, you're
welcome to send 'em my way, too.
># Danny Keren remains a man driven by base, negative emotions...hate,
># resentment, vanity.
>Not really, as this article should indicate.
Indeed. And I withdraw my previous statements against you. If you are as
sincere as you sound, I extend my apologies for the "roughness" that I
fostered during our USENET "discussions." You and many others received
alot of undeserved abuse from me, and I retract it. It was just dumb, but
it seems that most "wars" are that way.
Milton Kleim
Jamie McCarthy replies to me:
>> >> I am an admirer of Adolf Hitler. I embrace National Socialism.
>> >> I would do so even if the Holocaust *were* fact, which I
>> >> honestly believe it is not. I would do so even if Hitler and
>> >> his system had killed *60* million Jews.
>> I don't stand by that statement, as I can't. Your citation of it
>> in the manner you have reflects more on you than it does on me -- it
>> illustrates your dishonesty and hateful heart.
>Please explain, Mr. Kleim, why you don't stand by that statement
>anymore. The more you tell us about how and why you have changed
>your views, the more we will understand.
I can't stand by that statement because I do not agree with it.
I made that statement in anger and frustration to illustrate my point:
that I was not going to acquiesce to demands that I not admire Hitler. It
did not mean I _wanted_ 60 million dead; it meant the Jewish/"Holocaust"
issue was irrelevant to me. It was sheer callousness and arrogance to
make such a statement. Just as Lenin's or Stalin's slaughters mean little
or nothing to fanatical Communists.
Killing 60 million of ANYONE would serve no purpose whatsoever. And
killing without legitimate, just purpose is murder. I do not believe
Hitler killed millions of Jews (no, I do not "believe in" the "Six
Million" -- "believe in" is the key term -- but neither do I say for
certain they did not die, for I do not know. I shall not be compelled to
"believe in" anything). But if he had, it certainly would factor in my
determination of whether he -- or any historical figure -- was admirable
or not.
No man of virtue brutally slaughters helpless, innocent people.