why "Multiculturalism" is wrong ***
Ghandi
>From: rc...@netcom.com (Robert Chao)
>Subject: why "Multiculturalism" is wrong ***
>Date: Mon, 26 Dec 1994 04:53:09 GMT
>Suppose that for the sake of "cultural awareness," everyone in America
>begins speaking only in the language(s) of their ancestors. I would be
>writing in Mandarin Chinese, others would use German, English, African
>languages, and so on. Now I ask you this: WHAT SORT OF SOCIETY WOULD WE
>HAVE? That's right: A Multicultural society, where everyone is "proud of
>his/her heritage"!
>Do you know what else would happen? You guessed it. People would naturally
>group together on the basis of common ancestry(language) for obvious reasons.
>Now, I'm not saying that anyone is suggesting that everyone only speak
>the language of his/her ancestors. It's just a metaphor for what happens
>when we emphasize people's differences rather than their commonalities, based
>on their race. It is balkanizing and not extremely healthy to society.
You make a couple of incorrect assumptions. Just because everyone can speak
their native language does not mean that there is not a univeral language we
all communicate with. The present american language is a good example. It
is a hodge-podge of pieces of many different cultures taken to form a
language. Pride in your heritage does not mean that you only know about
your heritage.
I think differences that we see in the people in America are one of the
things that make this a strong country. I don't understand why you see
differences as polarizing. I see that as a point of bringing people
together to learn about other cultures. I think the more diverse we become,
the healthier it will be for society.
In peace,
Ghandi
**** * * **** * * ** ***** "True peace is not merley the absence
* * * * * ** * * * * of tension; It is the presense
* ** ***** **** * * * * * * of justice."-MLK
* * * * * * * ** * * *
***** * * * * * * ** ***** ZY--Go Zete --gtg...@bev.net
James White
>Suppose that for the sake of "cultural awareness," everyone in America
begins
>speaking only in the language(s) of their ancestors. I would be writing in
>Mandarin Chinese, others would use German, English, African languages, and
so
>on. Now I ask you this: WHAT SORT OF SOCIETY WOULD WE HAVE? That's right:
A
>Multicultural society, where everyone is "proud of his/her heritage"!
>Do you know what else would happen? You guessed it. People would
naturally
>group together on the basis of common ancestry(language) for obvious
reasons.
>Now, I'm not saying that anyone is suggesting that everyone only speak the
>language of his/her ancestors. It's just a metaphor for what happens when
we
>emphasize people's differences rather than their commonalities, based on
their
>race. It is balkanizing and not extremely healthy to society.
The trend to multi-culturalism is a result of the failure of many groups to
become truly integrated into American society. This forces them into
social isolation and development of a "strength in numbers" mentality.
After this comes development of a unifying theme for the group which more
often than not becomes the common culture. The next step in this process
is the attempt to elevate the unifying cultural theme and exaggerate
accomplishments. Politicians recognizing that this is occurring them start
to make appeals to the group in terms of their common culture. This then
stimulates other groups who have common cultural heritage to do the same
thing after they see the advantages to be gained through group unity.
No true multi-cultural society in the history of the world has long
endured. Balkanization is always the result. This is why there was a time
in the history of the US where whites from Europe were encouraged to mix
with each other and become part of a melting pot. Non-whites and Hispanics
have never been encouraged to truly be a part of the melting pot. It was
the exclusion of non-whites and Hispanics which set off the trend toward
multi-culturalism, a trend which is underway and I fear will continue until
the US of A is fractured. I see that in California, Arizona, Nevada, New
Mexico and Texas if present population trends continue these states will
have a Spanish speaking majority by the year 2020. There could be a time
when a Spanish speaking majority votes to secede from the US, a situation
similar to the Canadian situation with Quebec. A common language is a very
powerful unifying theme.
Jim White
Herzliche Grusse zum Weihnachtfest und alles Gute zum neuen jahr.
drieux, just drieux
>
>You make a couple of incorrect assumptions. Just because everyone can speak
>their native language does not mean that there is not a univeral language we
>all communicate with. The present american language is a good example. It
>is a hodge-podge of pieces of many different cultures taken to form a
>language. Pride in your heritage does not mean that you only know about
>your heritage.
Oh PLEEEEZE!!!!!
Americans have been trying to foster the myth that what they
attempt to utilize in vocal communications should be deemed
to be a Language, when in actual point of fact it is barely
anything more than a Formalized Creole!!!!
Yes, I can understand that for the StarvingMassesInAkadamiaLand
who would actually HAVE TO GET A REAL JOB, it is a valid myth to
perpetrate upon the Illiterate MASSES that they are in point of
InSanity actually Learning a Language when they are studying how
to make audible noises like an American, and how to parse the
little textual symbols fobbed off as the written format of the
audible noise system - but the FACTS of the matter remain that
Americans DO NOT have a LANGUAGE!!!!
COBOL, Now there is a REAL LANGUAGE, or Latin, or even LISP
if you want to support the ZionistHomoSexualBankingKonspirakiiKabalAndKosherDeli,
BUT NEVER EVER American!!!!!
What Sort of Psychotic Delusional Madness would creat
words like 'unix' or 'radar' or even phrases like:
Mighty Morphine Power Rangers
{like we need ONE More Drug Kult.}
or
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
like we need to let the Japanse Undermine our Kultural Heritage any more
than they already have!!!!
Clearly it is TIME that we abandon this FOLLY of MultiKulturalism
and RETURN to our Wholesome Traditional Family Values and restore
GERMAN to it's HOLY APPOINTED LANGUAGE of the Real Ruling Elite!!!!!
ciao
drieux
---
This is Not a .sigfile addendum to the Post.
You are just reading beyond the edge.
jsl...@acfcluster.nyu.edu
>Suppose that for the sake of "cultural awareness," everyone in America
>begins speaking only in the language(s) of their ancestors. I would be
>writing in Mandarin Chinese, others would use German, English, African
>languages, and so on. Now I ask you this: WHAT SORT OF SOCIETY WOULD WE
>HAVE? That's right: A Multicultural society, where everyone is "proud of
>his/her heritage"!
>Do you know what else would happen? You guessed it. People would naturally
>group together on the basis of common ancestry(language) for obvious reasons.
>Now, I'm not saying that anyone is suggesting that everyone only speak
>the language of his/her ancestors. It's just a metaphor for what happens
>when we emphasize people's differences rather than their commonalities, based
>on their race. It is balkanizing and not extremely healthy to society.
No one is suggesting that each person speak only the language of
his/her ancestors. The point of multiculturalism, which has its
good side and its bad side apart from this idiotic "metaphor," is
to show that every culture which makes up the US has some good to
it. They all have something that we can draw from and be proud
of. I don't really think that many people who are liberals (those
traditionally pushing multiculturalism) are for balkanization.
That seems more traditionally Republican.
Josh
Lee Rudolph
>attempt to utilize in vocal communications should be deemed
>to be a Language, when in actual point of fact it is barely
>anything more than a Formalized Creole!!!!
You misspelled Caramelized Frijole. It says so right here
in the Prop. 187 Cookbook.
LR
.
Robert Chao
begins speaking only in the language(s) of their ancestors. I would be
writing in Mandarin Chinese, others would use German, English, African
languages, and so on. Now I ask you this: WHAT SORT OF SOCIETY WOULD WE
HAVE? That's right: A Multicultural society, where everyone is "proud of
his/her heritage"!
Do you know what else would happen? You guessed it. People would naturally
group together on the basis of common ancestry(language) for obvious reasons.
Now, I'm not saying that anyone is suggesting that everyone only speak
the language of his/her ancestors. It's just a metaphor for what happens
when we emphasize people's differences rather than their commonalities, based
on their race. It is balkanizing and not extremely healthy to society.
--
* Robert Chao * rc...@netcom.com * Oakland, California *
Ghandi
>From: at...@ida.org (An-Jen Tai)
>Subject: Re: why "Multiculturalism" is wrong ***
>Date: 28 Dec 1994 18:43:33 GMT
>While the motives (for multiculturalism) you illuminate here appear to be
>reasonable, it is in fact subversive to the maintenance of American
>civilization. While the American experiment has proven that a
>multi-ethnic society can flourish and prosper, I contend that a
>multi-cultural society is an oxymoron. A society of shared values is
>rooted in a common culture. It is the responsiblity of our public
>institutions to inculcate our citizens in that culture; this is
>particularly true for new immigrants and their children. It ought not be
>the responsiblity of the government to facilitate the acceptance of alien
>cultures when it has done such a poor job with our own. The
>multi-culturalists distort the true nature of American society by focusing
>on the differences we have, rather than the common cultural heritage we
>all share as Americans.
>Whew, is this politically incorrect or what, especially since I'm not an
>all powerful white male! Comments?
And just what is this culture you want the government to facilitate the
acceptance of? We are a society _without_ shared values and _without_ a
common culture. I think that has proven to be good thing. Freedom is not
free. It means allowing others to be free to live in a way they see fit.
So, if someone chooses to continue to live Indian culture while in the U.S.,
they have that right and freedom. This is not about PC, it is about
accepting the fact that America is already Multiculteral and we need to stop
ingnoring that fact.
In peace,
Ghandi
>--
>An-Jen Tai
>at...@ida.org
>"Life, liberty, and the pursuit of property"
**** * * **** * * ** ***** "If humanity it to progress,, Gandhi
* * * * * ** * * * * is inescapable. He lived, thought
* ** ***** **** * * * * * * and acted, inspired by the vision
* * * * * * * ** * * * of humanity evolving toward a world
***** * * * * * * ** ***** of peace and harmony. We may ignore
~~~gtg...@bev.net~~~ him at our own risk." - MLK
drieux, just drieux
Oh great, another Whiney Jute who has never figured out
why it is that folks do NOT refer to it as AngloSaxonJuteNey.
Folks REALLY REALLY ougth to be be obliged to actually
get an education in the Public School System so that they
can ACTUALLY learn what a REAL LANGUAGE looks like, and
how to tell the difference between a REAL LANGUAGE and
that Gutteral Hodge Podge of lexical Tokens and grammatical
rules hurled up like a furrball which is fobbed off as 'american'!!!
Granted the British have been better at covering their tracks
about why their Sythesis of this and that might be considered
something appearing to be almost like a language, but decent
writers, such as George Orwell, have been TRYING to restore
a PhrancoPhilePhree AngloSaxon!!!
As long as we ALLOW all of those Whiney NormanKlayTures to
INFEST the Mother Tongue is it any wonder that it will never
be able to return to it's ORIGINAL ACTUAL LANGUAGE!!!!
I say enough is ENOUGH, let us RETURN to our Teutonic Traditions
and be done with this whole 'melting pot of lexical tokens and
grammatical rules!!!' and the Spawns of the Roman Empire Be DAMNED!!!
We Whipped Snot out of them, With War Hammer in Hand Once, we can do it AGAIN!!!!
An-Jen Tai
>
> No one is suggesting that each person speak only the language of
> his/her ancestors. The point of multiculturalism, which has its
> good side and its bad side apart from this idiotic "metaphor," is
> to show that every culture which makes up the US has some good to
> it. They all have something that we can draw from and be proud
> of. I don't really think that many people who are liberals (those
> traditionally pushing multiculturalism) are for balkanization.
> That seems more traditionally Republican.
>
> Josh
While the motives (for multiculturalism) you illuminate here appear to be
reasonable, it is in fact subversive to the maintenance of American
civilization. While the American experiment has proven that a
multi-ethnic society can flourish and prosper, I contend that a
multi-cultural society is an oxymoron. A society of shared values is
rooted in a common culture. It is the responsiblity of our public
institutions to inculcate our citizens in that culture; this is
particularly true for new immigrants and their children. It ought not be
the responsiblity of the government to facilitate the acceptance of alien
cultures when it has done such a poor job with our own. The
multi-culturalists distort the true nature of American society by focusing
on the differences we have, rather than the common cultural heritage we
all share as Americans.
Whew, is this politically incorrect or what, especially since I'm not an
all powerful white male! Comments?
--
drieux, just drieux
In article 28129413...@atai-mac.ida.org, at...@ida.org (An-Jen Tai) writes:
>While the motives (for multiculturalism) you illuminate here appear to be
>reasonable, it is in fact subversive to the maintenance of American
>civilization. While the American experiment has proven that a
>multi-ethnic society can flourish and prosper, I contend that a
>multi-cultural society is an oxymoron. A society of shared values is
>rooted in a common culture. It is the responsiblity of our public
>institutions to inculcate our citizens in that culture; this is
>particularly true for new immigrants and their children. It ought not be
>the responsiblity of the government to facilitate the acceptance of alien
>cultures when it has done such a poor job with our own. The
>multi-culturalists distort the true nature of American society by focusing
>on the differences we have, rather than the common cultural heritage we
>all share as Americans.
>
>Whew, is this politically incorrect or what, especially since I'm not an
>all powerful white male! Comments?
>
>--
>An-Jen Tai
first off I think that the term you were looking for is: PeniiAlternativelyEnabled
hence you should be referring to yourself as:
GeoPolitcallyDisengagedOppressedVictimsWhoAreDisEnfranchisedAndUnderEmpoweredAsWellAsUnderEnabledNonEuroKentrikKulturallyMyopicPeniiAlternativelyEnabledPerson
but we will let your Minor Faux Paux pass at this point, as clearly the
Lack of the HolyTuborOfTruth has clearly put you at an intellectual
disadvantage in this debate.
James White
>While the motives (for multiculturalism) you illuminate here appear to be
>reasonable, it is in fact subversive to the maintenance of American
>civilization. While the American experiment has proven that a
multi-ethnic
>society can flourish and prosper, I contend that a multi-cultural society
is an
>oxymoron. A society of shared values is rooted in a common culture. It
is the
>responsiblity of our public institutions to inculcate our citizens in that
>culture; this is particularly true for new immigrants and their children.
It
>ought not be the responsiblity of the government to facilitate the
acceptance
>of alien cultures when it has done such a poor job with our own. The
>multi-culturalists distort the true nature of American society by focusing
on
>the differences we have, rather than the common cultural heritage we all
share
>as Americans.
This did not originate with the multi-culturalists. It originates when one
or more groups feel themselves systematically excluded from full
participation in the American Dream. You see the American Dream has not
worked for all groups. The systematic exclusion leads groups to gather all
their individuals together to fight exclusion, but when the group gathers
they find it necessary to stimulate and increase cohesion which is needed
to fight the ones who do the excluding, unifying themes must be found.
Ethnicity and common languages are natural candidates for unifying themes.
When other groups see the power of groups they imitate the same behavior
and politicians never loath to exploit the situation start to appeal to
them as groups. The result is what you have in America today. Politicians
start to play one group against other groups in order to gain political
power and both American parties do it. The groups then start to demand
special treatment of their members as payment for supporting this or that
politician which exacerbates the friction in other groups who resent the
special favors secured by the various groups. This can go to the extreme
as it has in Canada where an ethnic/language group claims territory and
threatens the union. Multiculturalism though has its roots in exclusion.
French Canadians found themselves subject to a dominant English speaking
group and they gathered their forces and started a revolt. The outcome of
this revolt is still to be played out but it may very well result in the
break up of the Canadian Union.
Could it go that far in the US? I think it could. California, Arizona,
Nevada, New Mexico and Texas given present population trends, will have
Spanish speaking majorities by 2020. There is no unifying theme more
powerful than a common language. So I could foresee a time in the future
when a Spanish speaking majority in these states forces a vote for
succession from the American Republic. We see this situation now in
Northern Ireland, Russia, the former Yugoslavia and India to mention a few.
It is interesting to see what the Republican party has managed to do. Many
of the white groups over the years lost their ethnicity in the American
melting pot except in some local areas. So the Republican party saw that
perceived gains by ethnic groups who were denied the option of melting and
full participation in the Dream could be used to create another majority
group namely white males. White males, particularly blue collar white
males, who are seeing their wages go down and are looking for some one to
blame are rallying to this call. By a continuous barrage of political
rhetoric they have managed to convince white males that they are really the
exploited group and the concept of reverse discrimination started to gain
wide acceptance by this target group. The recent midterm Congressional
elections was the revolt of the white males to this "exploitation of their
class privileges" by ethnics. However, now it is necessary to repeal the
ideology which put these ethnics in a position to challenge white male
jobs. Presto and specious books like TBC appear, a move starts in
California to get rid of the evils of AA, discussions about repeal of all
civil rights legislation etc. The problem is that this is an illusion and
if AA and all civil rights legislation is repealed the problem which the
white male perceives will not go away. The real cause of declining wages
of blue collar white males, Joe Six Pack, is the continuing export of high
wage unskilled labor to the third world. This results in a situation where
his wages are being set in Bangladesh, Singapore, and Mexico City. So all
the promises made by the Republican Party cannot be delivered even after
all civil rights legislation is repealed and AA is gone. The labor market
requirements of the post industrial American society are for hamburger
turners, high tech business, specialized professional and software
engineers. So where will Joe Six Pack go next? Maybe fascism or worse.
The KKK right now is recruiting outside closing plants convincing him that
he is losing his job because of AA.
>Whew, is this politically incorrect or what, especially since I'm not an
all
>powerful white male! Comments?
The plight of Asians is interesting. Right now you are being used to
demonstrate that tests which negroes do not do well on are not just another
white superiority scheme. The linchpin in the repeal of civil rights and
other legislation favorable to negroes is TBC and its "discovery" that
negroes score 15 points lower than whites due to heredity. The discovery
that and Asians score 10 points higher is a ruse to make the other parts
palatable. However that is for right now, this moment. After the
Republicans discover that they cannot deliver on their promises you will be
the next target and your superiority in playing the test game will be used
against you. Joe Six Pack has to be placated for as long as possible
because any party which hope to build power can neglect him only at its
peril as the Democrats have discovered.
An-Jen Tai
White) wrote:
>
> This did not originate with the multi-culturalists. It originates when one
> or more groups feel themselves systematically excluded from full
> participation in the American Dream. You see the American Dream has not
> worked for all groups.
But it has for nearly everyone except African Americans (and perhaps
Native Americans). Assimilation is one of the most powerful forces in
American society, but it does not occur over night and often takes
generations. In my opinion, the single best statistic for assimilation is
the rate of inter-ethnic/racial marriages. Again, with the exception of
African Americans, this has been increasing steadily across ethnic groups
(including Asians and Hispanics). You can see the same pattern in the
convergence of relative wages, education, etc. (Though I've been told by
a colleague that, with respect to economic status, this was not true for
Mexican Americans, but I suspect that it has a great deal to do with the
continuing large influxes of new immigrants from Mexico.)
Again, what distinguishes multi-culturalists is their desire for "public
institutions", i.e., the government, to make allowances for particular
cultural peculiarities instead of trying its best to accelerate the
assimilation process.
> Politicians
> start to play one group against other groups in order to gain political
> power and both American parties do it. The groups then start to demand
> special treatment of their members as payment for supporting this or that
> politician which exacerbates the friction in other groups who resent the
> special favors secured by the various groups.
I agree. Interest group politics has defined American democracy since the
colonial days, but I would add that it is far more injurious when
government accounts for 30% of GDP rather than 5%.
> This can go to the extreme
> as it has in Canada where an ethnic/language group claims territory and
> threatens the union. Multiculturalism though has its roots in exclusion.
> French Canadians found themselves subject to a dominant English speaking
> group and they gathered their forces and started a revolt. The outcome of
> this revolt is still to be played out but it may very well result in the
> break up of the Canadian Union.
That is one interpretation. But the Quebecois did not ask to join the
Crown Colony of Canada. They were a conquered people. As such, they were
alienated from the British right from the beginning. Their history is a
struggle to maintain their own identity. In the case of French Canadians,
IMHO, it would be more appropriate to characterize this exclusion of yours
as self-imposed. (As an aside, many families in New England can trace
their ancestry back to French Cananda, but whom today, are
indistinguishable from their Yankee neighbors.)
> Could it go that far in the US? I think it could. California, Arizona,
> Nevada, New Mexico and Texas given present population trends, will have
> Spanish speaking majorities by 2020.
I partially agree. IMO, it will not happen if we slow down immigration
(both legal and illegal) and/or abolish government policies that inhibit
assimilation (bi-lingual education, for example).
> It is interesting to see what the Republican party has managed to do. Many
> of the white groups over the years lost their ethnicity in the American
> melting pot except in some local areas. So the Republican party saw that
> perceived gains by ethnic groups who were denied the option of melting and
> full participation in the Dream could be used to create another majority
> group namely white males.
While I share some of your cynicism regarding elements of the Republican
party, it remains true, however, that there exists legitimate, moral, and
persuasive arguments against affirmative action, welfare, etc.
> White males, particularly blue collar white
> males, who are seeing their wages go down and are looking for some one to
> blame are rallying to this call. By a continuous barrage of political
> rhetoric they have managed to convince white males that they are really the
> exploited group and the concept of reverse discrimination started to gain
> wide acceptance by this target group.
Again, I agree with this assessment, up to a point, though I might add
that wages have not gone down for blue collar workers as much as the
official stats indicate because of problems in how we measure inflation
(an overestimate of half a % point per year). The American electorate is
not as ignorant as you seem to believe. The Republicans, correctly (as I
believe) or incorrectly, painted the Congressional Democrats as being
corrupt and inimicable to the views of most ordinary Americans. Now they
have a chance to make a difference, and we will see if they do. By the
way, reverse discrimination happens everyday in America, it just happens
mostly in the public sector and in higher education. AA has had little
real influence on most private firms because they are in the business of
making money, not providing charity. And, lets face it, the holes in most
AA polices are big enough to drive a truck through.
As for the mid-term elections, while it led to an enormous change in the
makeup of Congress, in terms of total votes, the Republicans only gained
one or two percentage points at the polls, not exactly a sea change. You
are certainly entitled to your class based analysis, and it certainly has
a ring of truth to it. But economics is not everything in American
politics. Our nation is faced with many real social problems and, I might
add, real opportunities. There is little doubt in my mind that if we
succeed in reducing the role of government in our lives and arresting the
decay in our families, we will continue to prosper as no other nation has
in the history of mankind. As I see it right now, even with all of the
difficulties we face, this nation is more ready to compete in the next
century than any other industrialized country. While your arguments about
Joe-Six Pack losing out to low wage competition in Banglidesh sounds
seductive, they are wrong both in theory and in fact. (For example, see
Paul Krugman's recent article on First World/Third World trade in the
Harvard Business Review.) They are, quite simply, a rehash of the same
old Luddite arguments. Those arguments were wrong in the nineteenth
century, and they are wrong now.
Bill Cole - 919-248-6118
: Oh PLEEEEZE!!!!!
I assume this is a joke, right? If American isn't a Language, is English?
Thomas Leal
discussion pot.
Multiculturalism in this country comes from a realization that
assimilation in the past was essential reserved for immigrants from
Europe, primarily from northern Europe. Historically, the top sources of
immigrants (in terms of numbers of immigrants and people descended from
them here) have been Germany, Ireland, and England. We rarely hear anyone
self-describe as German-American or English-American, though we do hear
Irish-American. We much more often hear people from southern Europe
ancestry use Greek-American, Italian-American, etc., Often, the
"-American" is not even used.
Irish maintained some separateness because they were not allowed to
assimilate until the 1930s. Until then, Irish were routinely
discriminated against and were treated as a separate "race" just as some
groups are treated today (African-American, Hispanics, etc.). They were
prevented from moving out of Irish ghettoes until post-war housing was
built. Fortunately for the Irish, government agencies were more open to
hiring them. Many Irish got city and state jobs in the late 1920s. When
the depression hit, private industry cut back, but government did not.
Thus the Irish, among other disempowered groups, worked more steadily
during a long period of economic troubles.
Today we still see many people entering middle class because of government
employment.
Several people have noted that a nation forms around shared culture. My
studies support this too. Culture has three simple components: beliefs
(who we are), values (what is important to us, what we want), and
behaviors (how we do things here). Behaviors are most important because
they are more readily observed and more quickly dealt with. Groups punish
members for acting out of the acceptable range more quickly and severely
than those members who think differently or say things not so popular.
Actions are also more easily indentified by everyone, including non-members.
For most of us, what we do determines our sense of who we are (identity).
Change a person's tasks or behavioral pattern, and you throw that person
into identity crisis.
So what about multiculturalism?
We have noticed that assimilation was open to some, not all. Hence, the
dominant culture has been formed by some, but not all, of the people
living here. Yet, all of us live here.
We have also learned more about human psychology and development. We have
learned that when we don't value what is so about ourselves, we create
other problems. What is an "American?" Who is an "American?" On what
basis are any determinations to be made? And yet, we definitely have a
sense of how to answer those questions, and that is based on the dominant
culture.
That culture, however, leads many of us to invalidate parts of ourselves
that do not fit into the dominant culture mold. What then? Dissonance, a
disparity between what we think about ourselves, how we truly feel, and
how we behave. We try, simply, to be something we are not. While I
believe strongly in the need for and our ability to change, it's one
thing to try and improve ourselves and quite another to invalidate ourselves.
Multiculturalism, then, is a way of valuing who and what each one of us
truly is. It's a way of saying each of us is OK and all of us can be OK
with that. The differences can drive our society forward. As it is now
with so much invalidation, the suppression of differences creates
divisiveness. Previous writers have pointed out that every polyglot
country has failed, but I encourage you to examine that closer. Those
countries were not multicultural. They were a synthetic union that
ignored the differences or imposed a new national identity on separate
groups.
By the way, societal shift takes about 3 generations. Thus, when a social
change occurs, the society will take 60-80 years to integrate that
change. With resistance from members, the shift can take longer. This
leads many people to say that things never change, that you can't do
things differently. You just have to take a long term view of it and
forget the quick fixes. I hope that multiculturalism is a long term
societal shift. I fear that many, especially politicians, will act as
though it's a short term thing, a fad.
Why multiculturalism when equal opportunity and affirmative action
haven't seemed to work? Two reasons, I think. First, both programs
ignored the differences except to use those differences to identify
people to participate in the programs. The vision of both programs was to
create a society blind to color, religion, sex, etc., in deciding whom to
hire, promote, rent or sell to, etc. We ignored the differences, but they
didn't go away. Second, both programs were steps in an ongoing movement
toward greater inclusion. Since the 1700s, the history of this country is
toward greater inclusion of people regardless of differences.
Multiculturalism is a way for us to identify, validate, and value how
each of us is unique while we continue to find a way to be here together.
We can create a culture which values differences, a culture that believes
opportunity should be available to everyone qualified to do something.
Multiculturalism is a step toward that.
And because we are human, we are imperfect. We try something and make
mistakes. We try something and resist making all the changes needed. But
that does not mean we can't do it or that it cannot be done. It simply
means that as we try to do it, we will have to spend time learning how to
do it. And making mistakes is part of the process of learning how to do a
new task. Why should anybody expect to be able to do something perfectly
the first time?
--
Thomas Leal
The Synergy Group
Voice: 510-938-7748 FAX 510-943-7034
Internet: tom...@synergygroup.com
"Companies committed to bringing out the best in people,
their companies, and their ideas."
Bill Cole - 919-248-6118
: Suppose that for the sake of "cultural awareness," everyone in America
: begins speaking only in the language(s) of their ancestors. I would be
: writing in Mandarin Chinese, others would use German, English, African
: languages, and so on. Now I ask you this: WHAT SORT OF SOCIETY WOULD WE
: HAVE? That's right: A Multicultural society, where everyone is "proud of
: his/her heritage"!
Anyone who disputes this has only to go into the neighborhoods of some of
the "metlting pot" cities or the country communities of basically one
heritage. You can still find neighborhoods where the first language is
Yiddish or Chinese or Spanish or Czech or Vietnamese. English or
American is essentially a foreign language and American culture is an
intrusion.
: Do you know what else would happen? You guessed it. People would naturally
: group together on the basis of common ancestry(language) for obvious reasons.
: Now, I'm not saying that anyone is suggesting that everyone only speak
: the language of his/her ancestors. It's just a metaphor for what happens
: when we emphasize people's differences rather than their commonalities, based
: on their race. It is balkanizing and not extremely healthy to society.
Xenophobia (or simply fear of outsiders or someone "not like us") is a basic
metaphor for our actions. We want to be with people like ourselves. People
who share the same belief systems, the same linguistic and cultural
heritage. We segregate ourselves in many ways, after all. Religion separates
us like nothing else. And we further subdivide ourselves in that. We
choose a church because the people are like us (or like we want to be).
The folks who glory in the differences and tell us how wonderful it is that
everyone can have their own heritage forget that is exactly what pulls us
apart, not together. If difference is to be a strength, we have to agree
on some common points, not just being different.
Peter R Cook
--
Peter R. Cook p...@world.std.com
PRC Records New Blue Steel pc...@tdh.qntm.com
Marlborough, MA USA is here! Up the Irons Forever!
Bill Cole - 919-248-6118
I agree (but that's easy since I'm supposed to be part of the ruling elite
of White Males). Much of what we're seeing in multi-culturalism seems
to be apologetic in nature (We're sorry we're doing so well. We're sorry
we won the political, economic and battlefield wars. We're sorry to be
so xenophobic. Mea culpa. We'll tear our hair and beat ourselves with
chains. There. We feel better now. Back to work. We've got wars to win.).
Immigrants preserve what's important in their (previous) culture. Arts.
A form of the language. Traditions.
And what we're seeing is the inevitable conflicts that arise when we try
to reconcile multiple world-views that inately conflict.
: "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of property"
Property was/is happiness, wasn't/isn't it?
drieux, just drieux
as long as 'English' retains the PhrankoPhilePhornikation
IMPOSED upon it by the Kulturally Myopic Indigenous Kultur
Slaughtering Norman NeoKolonialist Oppressors it will not
be a 'real' language!!!!
Alberto C Moreira
>From: dri...@wetware.com (drieux, just drieux)
>Subject: Re: American is NOT a language
>Date: Fri, 30 Dec 1994 20:00:02 GMT
>In article 7...@dg-rtp.dg.com, co...@dg-rtp.dg.com (Bill Cole - 919-248-6118) writes:
>>drieux, just drieux (dri...@wetware.com) wrote:
>>
>>: Clearly it is TIME that we abandon this FOLLY of MultiKulturalism
>>: and RETURN to our Wholesome Traditional Family Values and restore
>>: GERMAN to it's HOLY APPOINTED LANGUAGE of the Real Ruling Elite!!!!!
>>
>>
>>I assume this is a joke, right? If American isn't a Language, is English?
>as long as 'English' retains the PhrankoPhilePhornikation
>IMPOSED upon it by the Kulturally Myopic Indigenous Kultur
>Slaughtering Norman NeoKolonialist Oppressors it will not
>be a 'real' language!!!!
German ? English ? French ? Sorry, guys, the real elite spoke Latin.
_alberto_
James White
Native
>Americans). Assimilation is one of the most powerful forces in American
>society, but it does not occur over night and often takes generations. In
my
>opinion, the single best statistic for assimilation is the rate of
>inter-ethnic/racial marriages. Again, with the exception of African
Americans,
>this has been increasing steadily across ethnic groups (including Asians
and
>Hispanics). You can see the same pattern in the convergence of relative
wages,
>education, etc. (Though I've been told by a colleague that, with respect
to
>economic status, this was not true for Mexican Americans, but I suspect
that it
>has a great deal to do with the continuing large influxes of new
immigrants
>from Mexico.)
and cultural elite of the US. In large urban complexes ethnicity continues
unabated. New York City is probably the most balkanized place in the world
and groups at the Joe Six Pack level do not do much mixing. Even marriages
between various European groups is rare at Joe's level. You do not find
Italians marrying Poles or Irish they each stay in their neighborhoods and
among their own people. I know that my own parents would have had a fit if
I had married a non German. I also do not want to imply to you that I
personally feel this way but in Germany if you suggested assimilation you
would be run out of town on a rail. Germans are quite proud of thier
purity which is really a racial illusion and they are very easily aroused
to extreme levels of xenophobia.
One white group, Jews, steadfastly resists mixing with non-Jews and has
done so for thousands of years quite successfully. If you want some idea
of how strong ethnicity is read the "Emerging Republican Majority" by Kevin
Phillips. In this book there is an excellent discussion of ethnicity by
region and he identifies the tension points between the groups which are
ripe for political exploitation, to prospective politicians. When you go
into rural areas in the heartland of the US the idea of a mixed marriage is
the most taboo subject imaginable, it cannot even be discussed openly.
Look at American movies, how many American movies or TV shows have
interracial couples? That is how taboo the subject is and movie makers and
show producers know it. The only white-asian couple film I have seen in
America with an asian male and white female was "The Bruce Lee Story".
There have been some with asian females and white males, most of them had
the theme of "Madame Butterfly" which ends tragically for the protagonists.
In short I do not feel inter racial marriages (assinilation) is a practical
solution to the problem in the near term. If your performance metric for
the extent of assimilation is inter racial marriages, I think the number of
interracial marriages is insignificant compared to the total number of
marriages.
>Again, what distinguishes multi-culturalists is their desire for "public
>institutions", i.e., the government, to make allowances for particular
cultural
>peculiarities instead of trying its best to accelerate the assimilation
>process.
normally petition in any country for redress of grievances, the US
Constitution was written to encourage it. Sometimes pressure can be
brought to bear on individual companies who grossly violate rights in
employment and other areas. My advice to negroes would be to bring to bear
their collective purchasing power to gain the employment goals they desire.
They earned about $170 billion in 1992. By selectively allocating the
expenditures of income among American Corporations they could bring about
change in employment opportunity without government intervention. This is
in fact what started to happen in the 60's and at that time everyone
thought it would be best for the government to enter as an "amicus curiae"
on behalf of agrieved groups. So I can see as a result of the government
exit from this role more direct action being brought to bare on individual
firms. What goes aroung come around. Get ahead by using capitalism is
what I say. The motive force in business is customer satisfaction, the
selective allocation of $170 billion could do great wonders for them within
the capitalist system. All they would be doing is spending their money
where they are given employment opportunities. In short the impetus for AA
is not going away in the US regardless to what the government does. All
that will happen is that the 60s will be re-lived by generations who do not
remember.
I firmly believe that assimilation is not a practical goal for non white
groups, actually most do not desire it. Among the highly educated elite
classes assimilation may occur to some degree but it is not a practical
general solution.
>I agree. Interest group politics has defined American democracy since the
>colonial days, but I would add that it is far more injurious when
government
>accounts for 30% of GDP rather than 5%.
Crown
>Colony of Canada. They were a conquered people. As such, they were
alienated
>from the British right from the beginning. Their history is a struggle to
>maintain their own identity. In the case of French Canadians, IMHO, it
would
>be more appropriate to characterize this exclusion of yours as
self-imposed.
>(As an aside, many families in New England can trace their ancestry back
to
>French Cananda, but whom today, are indistinguishable from their Yankee
>neighbors.)
Texas were acquired by force of arms from Mexico. Quebec was aquired by
the English form France in the same manner. What happened is that
basically a group of American settlers moved into those territories, then
complained to Washington that their rights were being violated. Then war
was declared on Mexico and after victory in the war annexation of the
target territories by the US ensued. The exception is Texas which won its
independence from Mexico on it's own in 1836 under the leadership of Sam
Huston and voluntarily enteren the union by a majority vote of its
legislature.
>I partially agree. IMO, it will not happen if we slow down immigration
(both
>legal and illegal) and/or abolish government policies that inhibit
assimilation
>(bi-lingual education, for example).
immigration will not slow. No governor of California is going in the near
future to be able to campaign on a platform of slowing Hispanic immigration
and remain governor for very long. Another factor is the explosive
population growth south of the border. Mexico will have population greater
than the US before 2050 if population trends continue. Mexico City will be
the largest city in the world by 2020. I could foresee a day when millions
of Mexicans put a sack over their shoulders and simply walk across the
border at will.
It is interesting to me that most Hispanic immigrants resist learning
English. The one exception to some extent has been Cubans who have learned
some English. Although a whole section of Miami now is so Cuban that you
can go into a lot of places before you can find someone who speaks English.
America is becoming a bilingual country. As the political power of
Hispanics mounts they will force the bilingual issue as they have
successfully done in Miami. Ballots are written in Spanish, drivers
license tests are given in Spanish, and there is mounting pressure to
conduct certain schools in Spanish. When in doubt cook up a conspiracy
right? I could imagine a neat conspiracy here.
>While I share some of your cynicism regarding elements of the Republican
party,
> it remains true, however, that there exists legitimate, moral, and
persuasive
>arguments against affirmative action, welfare, etc.
are corrected and the problems do not get fixed, you are still going to
have a problem with Joe Six Pack. In fact that is the portion of TBC which
I find most intriguing. The kind of economy being constructed will not
have high wage low skill jobs, so what is he going to do. These are the
whites who have IQ scores in the 90 to 105 range which is the vast
majority. Will they accept a regression in living standards? Or will they
rise up and establish some kind of fascist regime? As far as I am
concerned the jury is still out on that one.
Right now in the world America is becoming the primary source of fascist
propaganda in the world. In fact most of the German xenophobic forces like
the skinheads get their material and their spiritual leadership from the
USA. The source of much of this propaganda is the White Aryan Nation (WAR)
which is headquartered in Coeur D'Alene, Idaho USA. The agenda of these
guys is America is a white Christian nation and it should stay that way.
Their xenophobia is the common thread with German Skinheads and other
neoNazi groups. Do not under estimate these guys, people once did in
Germany and look what happened.
There is a group of Americans who have established a group called "Germany
Alert" which aims to keep a watch on the development of fascism in Germany.
I have suggested to a number of German friends of mine that Germans should
set up an "America Alert". America is very far to the right at this point
in time, farther than any European country and is the source of Fascist
propaganda all over Europe, Much of that fascist propaganda is very much
anti US. Such ideas would not be tolerated in Germany to day.
>Again, I agree with this assessment, up to a point, though I might add
that
>wages have not gone down for blue collar workers as much as the official
stats
>indicate because of problems in how we measure inflation (an overestimate
of
>half a % point per year). The American electorate is not as ignorant as
you
>seem to believe. The Republicans, correctly (as I believe) or
incorrectly,
>painted the Congressional Democrats as being corrupt and inimicable to the
>views of most ordinary Americans. Now they have a chance to make a
difference,
>and we will see if they do. By the way, reverse discrimination happens
>everyday in America, it just happens mostly in the public sector and in
higher
>education. AA has had little real influence on most private firms because
they
>are in the business of making money, not providing charity. And, lets
face it,
>the holes in most AA polices are big enough to drive a truck through.
perceptions. It does not matter what a group of economists think has
happened. What does Joe Six Pack think is happening? I submit that he
thinks his real wages have gone down. In fact he knows that they have,
that is why his wife must work now. The only reason real wages have not
declined in the aggregate has been the influx of women into the work place.
I read the article "Does Third World Growth Hurt First World Prosperity" by
Paul Krugmann in the July-August HBR. It does not change my view of trends
in the least. I am president and CEO of my own company and while I find
Economic theory to be interesting reading, I also live and function in the
real world. I can agree with the notion that as Third world productivity
rises so does world output which results in an increase in Third world
wages rather than in a decline in wages for First World workers. However,
how long does it take for all this to happen? It does not seem to me that
this is something which happens over night. In the mean time severe hurt
can be placed on First World wages in the short term. Krugman does admit
in the article that the jury is still out on unskilled jobs in the short
term which is precisely where I see the problem. You see there are many
Joe Six Packs out there who work at high wage unskilled jobs. This is what
has been responsible for his high standard of living, unskilled high wage
jobs. In the short run these jobs will be exported. In the long term I
agree with the Krugman analysis but look out for the short term. The whole
body politic could turn over unless protective barriers go up to preserve
First World standards of living. Will Joe put a government into power that
will protect his living standard? You bet he will. If that happens all
bets are off.
My questions about the timing stem from my personal experience. My own
firm is exporting jobs. I am in the AI Software Development business. We
design, code, debug, test, document and deliver AI software for use in
other businesses. Our customers are other businesses, government agencies,
and colleges and universities. As you may know software development is a
very labor intensive and expensive process. So we examined our processes
in order to develop performance metrics and to understand it and know where
our biggest cost drivers were. We found that coding and debugging was one
of our high cost areas, but one which required lesser skills than design.
We benchmarked ourselves against some of the best software developers to
see if these same areas were driving costs. We found that some of the
better firms had lower costs than we in these same areas of software
development. Further inquiry led us to discover that the reason was that
these firms were doing coding and debugging in Bangalore, India. So we
downsized the American workers we had doing these tasks and moved the jobs
to Bangalore also. The capital expenditures required for this are PCs and
work stations together with development software all of which are
relatively low cost and getting lower. I think that is happening all over
America in all types of businesses in spite of what is said in HBR. It is
happening because in the short term you can gain a significant competitive
edge in the cost of low skill labor. That is a fact, I am doing it. I
regularly read HBR and the Sloan Management Review published by your Alma
Mata, which I think is better and more analytical.
BTW if you want to broaden your horizons get into AI software development.
In order to develop "expert systems" you must do deep research in the area
in which you are developing the software. All of my undergraduate,
graduate and post doctoral work was in Physics but in the years I have been
in this business I have had to learn a lot about Microbiology because of
the Human Genome contract we have, test design and a myriad other areas.
It is really eye opening.
>An-Jen Tai
>at...@ida.org
>"Life, liberty, and the pursuit of property"
--
Pete Lienemann P030
James White (wh...@pipeline.com) wrote:
[ a whole newspaper!]
Jim -
A few quick comments.
After perusing several of you posts, I get the impression you are
relatively free from ethnic bias. That is good. However, I would like
to suggest that you drop the word "Negro."
"Black," "African," and "African-American," are better. (The latter may
be just a U.S. thing.) I'm not trying to be politically correct here.
It's just that I noticed some of my friends get a little pissed with
somebody calls them Negros.
Also, I have to agree that ethnic groups tend to stay ethnic for a long
time. re: you reference to New York City.
Later.
+--------------------------------------+-------------------------------+
|Pete Lienemann Jr. |It is better to ask forgiveness|
|e-mail [pending] |than to ask permission. |
|Raleigh NC | Grace Hopper, Admiral, U.S.N. |
+--------------------------------------+-------------------------------+
James White
>
>
>James White (wh...@pipeline.com) wrote: [ a whole newspaper!]
>
>Jim -
>
>A few quick comments.
>
>After perusing several of you posts, I get the impression you are
relatively
>free from ethnic bias. That is good. However, I would like to suggest
that
>you drop the word "Negro."
>
>"Black," "African," and "African-American," are better. (The latter may be
just
>a U.S. thing.) I'm not trying to be politically correct here. It's just
that
>I noticed some of my friends get a little pissed with somebody calls them
>Negros.
>
>Also, I have to agree that ethnic groups tend to stay ethnic for a long
time.
>re: you reference to New York City.
Thaks for the tip Pete. I am not always sensitive to the nuances of
English usage and I was using the direct German translation of the word.
Now I understand why people look at me funny when I say it. The German
word is Neger like in the name of Arnold Schwarzeneger, the literal
translation of that name is "Black Negro". I wonder how he got that name.
David A. Johns
# The German word is Neger like in the name of Arnold
# Schwarzeneger, the literal translation of that name is "Black
# Negro". I wonder how he got that name.
Whoa there, Big Jim. This one has been beaten to death on some other
group I read, either sci.lang or alt.usage.english. I'm sure you
could get some help on soc.culture.german or soc.culture.austria as
well. Let me see what I remember.
In the first place, it's not Schwartzeneger, but Schwarzenegger, with
two g's. And the breakdown is Schwartzen-egger, not Schwartze-negger.
In southern dialects Egg means something like earth or plow (I think
someone said it corresponds to eck in standard German), and there are
places in Austria and Switzerland named Egg and various compounds of
it. So Schwartzenegger is a guy from Schwartzenegg (Black Earth?),
just like Frankfurter is a guy from Frankfurt. To reinforce this
analysis, I once knew a guy named Sonderegger.
David Johns
Pete Lienemann P030
:
: Thaks for the tip Pete. I am not always sensitive to the nuances of
: English usage and I was using the direct German translation of the word.
: Now I understand why people look at me funny when I say it. The German
: word is Neger like in the name of Arnold Schwarzeneger, the literal
: translation of that name is "Black Negro". I wonder how he got that name.
Jim -
It's not a language thing but a cultural(?) thing. For example, if I
talk about "spanking the monkey," you probably don't have the slightest
idea what I'm talking about.
When I was young, "Negro" was the politically correct term. In the
70's, "Black" became the term of choice. Now we have
"African-American." (Up until recently, I beligerently resisted using
"African-American.")
By the way. I do a film review column on the side and I can't spell
Arnold's name either without having it in front of me and I've typed it
many, many times. Why don't you have a "proper" German name like
Lienemann? (Any idea what it means? I don't)
--
James White
>In the first place, it's not Schwartzeneger, but Schwarzenegger, with two
g's.
>And the breakdown is Schwartzen-egger, not Schwartze-negger. In southern
>dialects Egg means something like earth or plow (I think someone said it
>corresponds to eck in standard German), and there are places in Austria
and
>Switzerland named Egg and various compounds of it. So Schwartzenegger is
a guy
>from Schwartzenegg (Black Earth?), just like Frankfurter is a guy from
>Frankfurt. To reinforce this analysis, I once knew a guy named
Sonderegger.
national character set you cannot really be sure what it means. I am quite
aware though of what you are saying. I was trying to be funny and it did
not come across as funny. There is a German joke about this name which does
not make sense in English. Translating humor from one language into
another is extremely difficult because sometimes the humor is a play on
words which cannot have the same meaning in the other language. Looking
at his name as best I can tell, Schwarz means black if there are accents
over the a, Schwarte no accents over the a means bacon (though it is
closer to what you call pork skins) and egge is a harrow, you know a farm
instrument. Eck is the word for angle or corner, it can also mean a metal
shelf bracket, in slang it can mean a short distance, since a harrow has
angled prongs in colloquial usage I can believe that it might have acquired
that meaning but it is not standard German. Schwarz(en)egger. It is
difficult sometimes to translate German word for word into English and have
the translation make sense. It is better to translate meaning, sometimes
the meaning of whole sentences must be re-expressed to capture meaning. I
would seriously translate his name to mean simply farmer or farmer from a
region with rich (black) earth. Only farmers use harrows and if he were
not using his harrow in rich black earth it could not be black.
drieux, just drieux
Wrong Answer LapDogLackyStoogeOfLiteComicOperaAsPoliticalPhilosphy!!!!
Latin is the Language of SudEuroKulturalMyopiaAndTheViciousItalianNeoKolonialistOppressorsWhoLikeToDressUpLikeTransvestitesAndBabbleOnInCoHerently!!!
It is, therefore Philthy Philthy Philthy!!!
and the language of the REPRESSORS!!!!
ciao
drieux
James White
Arnold's
>name either without having it in front of me and I've typed it many, many
>times. Why don't you have a "proper" German name like Lienemann? (Any
idea
>what it means? I don't)
My guess at what your name means is: Liene is close to the German word
which means ruler and mann has a variety of meanings but the most
appropriate is vassal. You may know that in medieval German towns and
villages a vassal was like an indentured servant. So I would say that your
ancestors were the rulers (or bosses) of indentured servants on behalf of
feudal lords.
Translating German into English is quite a chore sometimes. This is
especially true when you are reading German written using the English
national character set. You just have to guess sometimes based on context
what the words really mean.
I do not use my German name because it is too notorious because my
grandfather was hung for war crimes after judgement was rendered at
Nuremberg. I will give you more details if you send me your email address.
I tried to contact you at the one on the letterhead but the mail came
back.
--
Pete Lienemann P030
: I tried to contact you at the one on the letterhead but the mail came
: back.
:
Jim - I access this thing through my employer. To get a valid email
address, one has to get a form, get several signatures, etc. To get
around that little problem, I'm going to be purchasing my own connection
through some provider here in Raleigh. At that point, I'll have an
email address. Till then, this is the only way to reach me.
Later
[ffr.de]
Robert Chao (rc...@netcom.com) wrote:
: Suppose that for the sake of "cultural awareness," everyone in America
Absolutely correct! A nation does not endure by the variedness of its
"mosaic" but rather by people (of whatever lineage) having something
common among them to focus on as a unifying force. Of course some may
find the celebration of "diversity" in Bosnia, Rwanda, Burundi,
Chechnia,... gratifying but I find it to be somewhat scary. So before we
go and put ethnic pride above national pride when indoctrinating the
young in our schools we might first remember what what the consequences
can be. One People, One Nation, irrespective of the melanin content, for
all.
Alberto C Moreira
>From: dri...@wetware.com (drieux, just drieux)
>Subject: Re: American is NOT a language
>In article 0013...@moreira.mv.com, alb...@moreira.mv.com (Alberto C Moreira) writes:
>>
>> German ? English ? French ? Sorry, guys, the real elite spoke Latin.
>>
>>
>> _alberto_
>Wrong Answer LapDogLackyStoogeOfLiteComicOperaAsPoliticalPhilosphy!!!!
>Latin is the Language of SudEuroKulturalMyopiaAndTheViciousItalianNeoKolonialistOppressorsWhoLikeToDressUpLikeTransvestitesAndBabbleOnInCoHerently!!!
In other words, the elite. I'm glad we agree on this!
>It is, therefore Philthy Philthy Philthy!!!
>and the language of the REPRESSORS!!!!
Nah. Western Language - Latin = Grunts. No wonder only a privileged
few understand it, and nobody can speak it anymore. Talk about
decadence...
_alberto_
drieux, just drieux
>In article <D1ss5...@wetware.com> dri...@wetware.com (drieux, just drieux) writes:
>>From: dri...@wetware.com (drieux, just drieux)
>>Subject: Re: American is NOT a language
>>Date: Mon, 2 Jan 1995 21:39:32 GMT
>
>>In article 0013...@moreira.mv.com, alb...@moreira.mv.com (Alberto C Moreira) writes:
>>> German ? English ? French ? Sorry, guys, the real elite spoke Latin.
>
>
>>Latin is the Language of SudEuroKulturalMyopiaAndTheViciousItalianNeoKolonialistOppressorsWhoLikeToDressUpLikeTransvestitesAndBabbleOnInCoHerently!!!
>
> In other words, the elite. I'm glad we agree on this!
clearly you do NOT have a lot of experience living with
tribal people. As one of My NavAm friends likes to point
out to the GenericWhitePeople, I am one of the Traditionals
of the Old School Tribalism, I just happen NOT to be a NavAm Traditional.
>>It is, therefore Philthy Philthy Philthy!!!
>>and the language of the REPRESSORS!!!!
>
> Nah. Western Language - Latin = Grunts. No wonder only a privileged
> few understand it, and nobody can speak it anymore. Talk about
> decadence...
>
> _alberto_
Yes, YOU ARE talking about Dekadenke!!!
If you are willing to Kapitulate to the
AnteNeoKolonialistKulturalSuppressorsOfIndiginousKulturs
it is not at all suprising that your ALIENATION from the
One True Kultur has lead you into your PSYCHOTIC DELUSIONS!!!!
You must first seek Liberation from their Kultural Suppression
before you can finally come to the oneness of your true heritage!!!!
ciao
drieux
James White
>This makes me question your knowledge of America. Inter-marriage rates
(or
>outside of own narrow ethnic group marriages) frequently hit 50% by the
second
>or third generation in the US. New York is an aberration, but the effects
>there are evident, too.
>One point: intermarriage rates in the US nearly always follow economic
success
>for the group in question.
>
>America isn't Germany, and it sure isn't Korea. Even German rhetoric
isn't
>German, as the number of 'assimilated' babies born to German women and
'guest'
>laborors in WWII despite it being against the law indicate. I think the
best
>estimates put such children at the million mark by wars end. It is far
more
>xenophobic in asia with the 'bo dai'.
In WWII there were no guest workers in Germany. There were slave laborers.
First of all there would have been no opportunity for fraternization but
for a German woman to fraternize with one of these types was high treason
punishable by death, not only would she have been put to death but the
child of such a union would have also been put to death. Justice in the
Third Reich was swift and certain. So where did you get this information
about German women and guest laborers? It seems that I know more about
America than you do about Germany. A number of German women married
African Americans and moved back here, in fact one of the best German
soccer players is the hybrid product of a German woman and an African
American.
Germans are probably the purest people in Europe, our purity is one of our
strengths. I have stood in the Airport in Frankfort and just observed the
people. There is a distinct German racial type and it is distinct from any
other people in Europe or in the world. I can see a silhouette of a person
walking and tell you if it is a German. No doubt our purity was enhanced
to some degree by Hitler's breeding program which aimed to create the
German racial ideal. Marriages between a German and people who do not meet
German racial standards are not so favorably looked upon. There are some
non Germans from Northern Europe who meet our racial standards and who
would not cause a problem but very few. I sincerely hope I do not sound
racist here because I am not at all.
>| One white group, Jews, steadfastly resists mixing with non-Jews and has
|
>done so for thousands of years quite successfully.
is
>having a severe effect on Jews in the US.
If this is happening in the US it is a very recent thing. Jews lived in
Europe in various countries for nearly a thousand years and maintained
their identity.
>A basically dishonest commentator. Which might not mean he is off base
here,
>but one wonders.
>Fascism belongs on the same side of the political thoughtline as Socialism
and
>Communism. There really isn't any philisophical debates between these
people,
>only a little rhetoric and an arguement about who is in charge. On the
>opposite end of the spectrum you have a libertarian dream land approached
by
>Hong Kong and 19th centry America (for whites). The modern welfare state
is in
>the middle, with most of europe a little off center toward the
>socialists/fascists and America a little off center toward the
libertarians.
Get out your books on Political Science again because there is a world of
difference between Socialism, Communism and Fascism. The most obvious is
that socialism is an economic system rather than a political system there
is democratic socialism as in Sweden and there was dictatorial socialism as
was in the former Soviet Union. This kind of statement make me wonder
about the level of political sophistication in the US because I have heard
other Americans say the same thing. Books could be written about the
differences between the political forms.
>If we do get a radical turn toward the skinheads, affirmitive action will
have
>done a lot of the damage. It has done so in other parts of the world.
It will not be AA that causes it because AA is in fact a colossal failure.
American politics always manages to create victims. Right wing American
politicians have managed to convince majority white males that they are
victims. Using classic George Orwell "double speak" they managed to
engineer a complete role reversal. The victims become the oppressors and
the oppressors become victims. This may work for one or two elections but
will not sustain political power when "victim white males" see that their
problems are not being solved. IMHO the problem of the white male is not
that AA is taking his jobs away but the fact that high wage low skill jobs
are being exported. There was a time when a high school graduate in Flint,
Michigan could come out of school and go to work for the Buick Division of
GM and make $25 per hour on the assembly line but no more.
>I do not think things will go that far, though.
It depends on what happens when the so called conservative revolution fails
to deliver as it surely will. All the AA rules will be gone, taxes will be
very much lowered, welfare will be virtually eliminated and the progenitors
of the conservative revolution will be living in their walled towns or some
where on the French Riviera. Where will the "victim white male" then turn?
It could very well be fascism.
>
>
>--
>-------------------------
>My comments are my own. They are independent and unrelated to the
>views of my company , relatives or elected representatives.
>
--
Jim White
Sie werden sie wissen durch die Wahrheit von ihren Wörtern.
Friede, liebt und Verständnis.
John Hall
When considering the performance of asians in the US consider
the effects of selective migration. In fact, most migrations to
the US have been highly selective. Often, nearly all the people
from a given country migrating to the US come from a narrow
geographical section of the mother country.
In article wh...@pipeline.com (James White) writes:
| In alt.discrimination at...@ida.org (An-Jen Tai) said:
|
| >Assimilation is one of the most powerful forces in American
| >society, but it does not occur over night and often takes generations. In
| my
| >opinion, the single best statistic for assimilation is the rate of
| >inter-ethnic/racial marriages.
| This is an illusion caused probably by your sojourn among the intellectiual
| and cultural elite of the US.
This makes me question your knowledge of America. Inter-marriage
rates (or outside of own narrow ethnic group marriages) frequently
hit 50% by the second or third generation in the US. New York is
an aberration, but the effects there are evident, too.
One point: intermarriage rates in the US nearly always follow
economic success for the group in question.
America isn't Germany, and it sure isn't Korea. Even German rhetoric
isn't German, as the number of 'assimilated' babies born to German
women and 'guest' laborors in WWII despite it being against the law
indicate. I think the best estimates put such children at the million
mark by wars end. It is far more xenophobic in asia with the 'bo dai'.
| One white group, Jews, steadfastly resists mixing with non-Jews and has
| done so for thousands of years quite successfully.
The intermarraige rate for all Jews in the US is at approximately 50%.
It is having a severe effect on Jews in the US.
| If you want some idea
| of how strong ethnicity is read the "Emerging Republican Majority" by Kevin
| Phillips.
A basically dishonest commentator. Which might not mean he is off
base here, but one wonders.
| America is very far to the right at this point
| in time, farther than any European country
Fascism belongs on the same side of the political thoughtline as
Socialism and Communism. There really isn't any philisophical debates
between these people, only a little rhetoric and an arguement about
who is in charge. On the opposite end of the spectrum you have a
libertarian dream land approached by Hong Kong and 19th centry America
(for whites). The modern welfare state is in the middle, with most
of europe a little off center toward the socialists/fascists and
America a little off center toward the libertarians.
If we do get a radical turn toward the skinheads, affirmitive action
will have done a lot of the damage. It has done so in other
parts of the world.
I don't think things will go that far, though.
mellow mike
this is foolish alarmism. multiculturalism is not cultural relativism, nor
is it separatism, nor is it necessarily anti-nationalistic. it is simply
the corrective medicine that the educated classes of americans require
such that they are not 'ugly americans'.
generally speaking, the upper classes of americans in comparison with
their european and south american counterparts are more xenophobic, racist
and unaware of world history and literature. multiculturalism seeks to
address this but primarily by offering the context of world history and
literature. the natural consequence of this in a nation of immigrants is
*recognition* of the heritage and backgrounds of these immigrants. it is
certainly expected and hoped that this broader background will provide
anti-racist and anti-xenophobic forces which are ultimatly civilizing. but
multiculturalism doesn't confer status. it merely offers the opportunity
for educated americans to improve their worldview.
multiculturalism, however has political overtones and now political
enemies. since the conservative right has decided to overstep its bounds
and attempt to influence college curricula and progressives have reacted,
multiculturalism will never again be the civilizing academic initiative it
began as. the middle class types and hangers-on to white male rage which
is all the new vogue in cyberspace are those fueling the political force
of this issue. however this passion is far too blunt to precicesly
identify errors in multiculturalism as originally conceived and thus have
tended to villify all liberalism. enemies of liberalism are easily found.
although it has been said many times, it bears repeating. multiculturalism
has no politics outside of academic ethics and the opinions of loud
undergraduates. 'political correctness', however, since it finds an enemy
in the powerful republican right must ultimately become something
fungible. but anyone who searches will find few if any multicultural grass
roots political organizations which are not simply reactionary to bloom's
original treatise.
it must be said that my introduction to the debate began with the greywolf
annual. #5 i beleive it was. the title was multicultural literacy,
something of an answer book to bloom's 'cultural literacy'. quite frankly,
all recognized that america was getting dumber. bloom said every educated
american should know set A. the editors and authors of the greywolf annual
said, why stop there? they should know A & B, becuase to only know A
without the context of B is to place arbitrary limits on knowledge. the
argument has devolved from that point in 1987.
: Robert Chao (rc...@netcom.com) wrote:
: : Suppose that for the sake of "cultural awareness," everyone in America
: : begins speaking only in the language(s) of their ancestors. I would be
: : writing in Mandarin Chinese, others would use German, English, African
: : languages, and so on. Now I ask you this: WHAT SORT OF SOCIETY WOULD WE
: : HAVE? That's right: A Multicultural society, where everyone is "proud of
: : his/her heritage"!
: : Do you know what else would happen? You guessed it. People would naturally
: : group together on the basis of common ancestry(language) for obvious
reasons.
: : Now, I'm not saying that anyone is suggesting that everyone only speak
: : the language of his/her ancestors. It's just a metaphor for what happens
: : when we emphasize people's differences rather than their
commonalities, based
: : on their race. It is balkanizing and not extremely healthy to society.
:
'pride in heritage' is peddled to undergraduates as a motivating force in
higer education. it only works to the extent that history has been
suppressed. those enamored with invention cannot honestly expect long term
respect or influence among the educated and they will not have it. since
it is clear that this nation has societal forces which suppress, there
must inevitably be some reconciliation. it properly should take place in
colleges and universities. conservative reactionaries have overestimated
the consequences for the masses of americans and have thus contributed to
the strength of interest.
these 'obvious' reasons you speak of and 'natural' groupings are
rediculous. the only americans with a history of putting their houses up
for sale in order to keep 'social purity' are white citizens. a failed
enterprise, i might add.
--
: Absolutely correct! A nation does not endure by the variedness of its
: "mosaic" but rather by people (of whatever lineage) having something
: common among them to focus on as a unifying force. Of course some may
: find the celebration of "diversity" in Bosnia, Rwanda, Burundi,
: Chechnia,... gratifying but I find it to be somewhat scary. So before we
: go and put ethnic pride above national pride when indoctrinating the
: young in our schools we might first remember what what the consequences
: can be. One People, One Nation, irrespective of the melanin content, for
: all.
indoctrination of the young is being carried out by irresponsible and
relatively idiotic teachers and preachers. to connect them with the
primary idea of multiculturalism is to make several mistakes which one
should be able to devine from my above comments.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
mbo...@panix.com harambee!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
mellow mike
:
: If we do get a radical turn toward the skinheads, affirmitive action
: will have done a lot of the damage. It has done so in other
: parts of the world.
:
i don't see the context for this statement. i'll take it as it stands. if
skinhead politics become predominant in any form, those beneficiaries of
affirmative action programs who are black will inevitably turn in racial
solidarity to their racist enemies. they will simultaneously turn to their
new professional counterparts in political solidarity. they will finally
turn to national defenses.
whatever 'damage' affirmative action caused (like what?) would be
miniscule in comparison to the allegiances it has formed with forces
countering skinhead politics. like it or not, the skinheads will lose. i
only need mention one name, which is colin powell.
mellow mike
White) wrote:
:
: Germans are probably the purest people in Europe, our purity is one of our
: strengths. I have stood in the Airport in Frankfort and just observed the
: people. There is a distinct German racial type and it is distinct from any
: other people in Europe or in the world. I can see a silhouette of a person
: walking and tell you if it is a German. No doubt our purity was enhanced
: to some degree by Hitler's breeding program which aimed to create the
: German racial ideal. Marriages between a German and people who do not meet
: German racial standards are not so favorably looked upon. There are some
: non Germans from Northern Europe who meet our racial standards and who
: would not cause a problem but very few. I sincerely hope I do not sound
: racist here because I am not at all.
:
jim white comments on the racial purity of the german nation and
exemplifies his social skill in identifying the characteristics of
individuals conforming to that racial ideal. he self-identifies himself
within the german racial group. he makes no judgements other than an
implied distaste for hitler's breeding program and disclaims racist
ideology.