music is a moral law
telescope
I have a question.
Some people quote that Plato said " Music is a moral law.
It gives soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight
to the imagination, a charm to sadness, gaiety and life
to everything. It is the essence of order, and leads to
all that is good, just and beautiful, of which it is the
invisible, but nevertheless dazzling, passionate and eternal
form."
But I can't find it in the original text of Plato.
In one Webpage it is written "as an anonymous author once
wrote of this sublime art:"Music is a moral law. It gives
soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the
imagination, a charm to sadness, gaiety and life to
everything. It is the essence of order and leads to all
that is good, just, and beautiful, of which it is the
invisible, nevertheless dazzling, passionate and eternal
form."
Isn't it the original of Plato? If so, What text is this
quoted from?
Please teach me.
--
************* SOUDA Masaaki / AIHARA Hiroaki *************
mailto: m-s...@mtc.biglobe.ne.jp / vem1...@nifty.ne.jp
URL: http://www004.upp.so-net.ne.jp/mysouda/
******************** JAPAN / Tokushima *******************
HHowey
Look in THE REPUBLIC;-)
telescope
On 19 Sep 2003 17:31:09 GMT
Alan Watkins
I am a great fan of Mr Plato but could I point out that while he
mentioned the eternal form, he seems to have overlooked the eternal
practice.
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Roman Turovsky
>>
>> On 19 Sep 2003 17:31:09 GMT
>> hho...@aol.com (HHowey) wrote:
>>
>>> << But I can't find it in the original text of Plato. >>
>>> Look in THE REPUBLIC;-)
> I am a great fan of Mr Plato but could I point out that while he
> mentioned the eternal form, he seems to have overlooked the eternal
> practice.
> Kind regards,
> Alan M. Watkins
RT
______________
Roman M. Turovsky
http://turovsky.org
http://polyhymnion.org
Ken Moore
<r.tur...@attSPAMLESS.net> writes
>Didn't Plato hate music?
He thought flutes were a menace to public order, but that was the least
of his peculiarities. What about all that rubbish about ideal forms!
Categorical thinking is often inappropriate. I prefer Lord Kelvin:
"Science starts when measurement starts". (I may be paraphrasing)
--
Ken Moore
K.C....@reading.ac.uk
pg composition student, University of Reading
Thorsten Ruffle-Brandt
> Didn't Plato hate music?
No, he loved it - albeit platonically...
(Ok ok, I'll get my coat... ;-)
--
A - E/G# - F#m7 - F#m7/E - D/F# - E7sus4 - E7 - A
Jerry Kohl
> In article <BB9392AD.1B24E%r.tur...@attSPAMLESS.net>, Roman Turovsky
> <r.tur...@attSPAMLESS.net> writes
> >Didn't Plato hate music?
>
> He thought flutes were a menace to public order,
"Flutes"?
--
Jerry Kohl <jerom...@comcast.net>
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal."
telescope
Jerry Kohl <jerom...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Ken Moore wrote:
>
> > In article <BB9392AD.1B24E%r.tur...@attSPAMLESS.net>, Roman Turovsky
> > <r.tur...@attSPAMLESS.net> writes
> > >Didn't Plato hate music?
> >
> > He thought flutes were a menace to public order,
>
> "Flutes"?
which mean auloi(aulos). he didn't hate lyra, I think.
Jerry Kohl
That is my understanding, as well. The traditional (dubious) translation of
"aulos" with "flute" is well-known, but bears about as much scrutiny as the
biblical "tinkling cymbal" in 1 Cor 13:1, where we must always put in a long
footnote to explain the difference between the familiar modern (Turkish)
cymbal and the cymbala (cup bells) of ancient times.
John Briggs
> Ken Moore wrote:
>
>> In article <BB9392AD.1B24E%r.tur...@attSPAMLESS.net>, Roman Turovsky
>> <r.tur...@attSPAMLESS.net> writes
>>> Didn't Plato hate music?
>>
>> He thought flutes were a menace to public order,
>
> "Flutes"?
He could have been right - I have a vague memory of hearing about
"flute-girls", somewhere.
--
John Briggs
telescope
Jerry Kohl <jerom...@comcast.net> wrote:
> telescope wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 06:58:28 GMT
> > Jerry Kohl <jerom...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Ken Moore wrote:
> > >
> > > > In article <BB9392AD.1B24E%r.tur...@attSPAMLESS.net>, Roman Turovsky
> > > > <r.tur...@attSPAMLESS.net> writes
> > > > >Didn't Plato hate music?
> > > >
> > > > He thought flutes were a menace to public order,
> > >
> > > "Flutes"?
> >
> > which mean auloi(aulos). he didn't hate lyra, I think.
>
> That is my understanding, as well. The traditional (dubious) translation of
> "aulos" with "flute" is well-known, but bears about as much scrutiny as the
> biblical "tinkling cymbal" in 1 Cor 13:1, where we must always put in a long
> footnote to explain the difference between the familiar modern (Turkish)
> cymbal and the cymbala (cup bells) of ancient times.
I agree. Aulos is similar to a pipe rather than a flute, isn't it?
Jerry Kohl
Depends, I suppose, on what you mean by "pipe". There were, as I understand it, a
variety of rather different instruments that fell under the rubric "aulos", but
the main distinguishing feature was their double reed. I have heard that there is
a dissenting opinion that would allow some sort(s) of flutes also to be included
under the general heading, but in the main we are talking about reed instruments
with a decidedly robust sound. Plato's objection is directed at the ability of
these instruments (and their virtuoso players) to rouse audiences to violent
passions; the lyre (or its more up-market relative, the kithara) was, by
comparison, refined and soothing in character.
Jerry Kohl
Same problem. What is the Greek word being mis-translated? For example, here
is a popular-level description:
<http://www.arts.ed.ac.uk/classics/openday/entertainment.html>
Note that it says the "flute girls" played "double-reed pipes"!!
You may be thinking of something more along this line:
<http://www.nybooks.com/articles/8176>,
though it still comes down to the same thing.
telescope
Jerry Kohl <jerom...@comcast.net> wrote:
Oh, it's complicated. For appearance, I think, aulos is similar to a pipe rather than
a flute, judging from the ancient Greek pictures. But Plato didn't hate aulos as a
instrument but "a decidedly robust sound" played with aulos to rouse audiences to
violent passions. For Plato the qualty of music is the most important. It is not so
important which instrument we use. Is that right?
Roman Turovsky
> it, a
> variety of rather different instruments that fell under the rubric "aulos",
> but
> the main distinguishing feature was their double reed.
Roman Turovsky
ideal state.
RT
______________
Roman M. Turovsky
http://turovsky.org
http://polyhymnion.org
> From: telescope <m-s...@mtc.biglobe.ne.jp>
> Organization: BIGLOBE news user
> Newsgroups: rec.music.early
> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 12:06:47 +0900
> Subject: Re: music is a moral law
>
telescope
I know it is often said. But he surely appreciated the usefulness of music
for the education of children, i think. (in this case the word "music"
includes dance, poetry and so on.)
Jerry Kohl
What sort of pipe, though? When Vaughan Williams composed his Suite for Pipes, he had in
mind the sort of bamboo whistle flutes that still go by that n In other contexts, "pipe"
can mean a bagpipe. In others still, a shawm or similar "reed pipe".
> But Plato didn't hate aulos as a
> instrument but "a decidedly robust sound" played with aulos to rouse audiences to
> violent passions. For Plato the qualty of music is the most important. It is not so
> important which instrument we use. Is that right?
I'm not so sure that Plato separated the instrument from the kind of music that it
typically played (just as today if you say "electric guitar" it almost certainly will
evoke rock music. even though the instrument is sometimes employed in quite different
contexts). Certainly Plato deplores certain modes (the Mixolydian and the "intense"
Lydian) as being too "dirge-like", which would have to be largely separate from any
particular instrument (or the voice). In The Republic he also warns against
over-indulgence in music generally, which he says makes men "soft", just as
over-indulgence in gymnastics (and neglecting music) makes them too "savage" and "hard".
telescope
Jerry Kohl <jerom...@comcast.net> wrote:
It's difficult for me to explain. Look at the next book, please. There are
many pictures of ancient Greek period.
Max Wegner "Griechenland"(second edition, 1970)
in the series Heinrich Besseler und Max Schneider "Musikgeschichte in Bildern"
Jerry Kohl
> > Depends, I suppose, on what you mean by "pipe". There were, as I understand
> > it, a
> > variety of rather different instruments that fell under the rubric "aulos",
> > but
> > the main distinguishing feature was their double reed.
> Single. It is still played in Sardinia, as "launeddas".
Apparently the evidence is that some of the ancient Greek aloi had single reeds,
others double ones. (The Sardinian pipes may well represent a survival or at
least a latter-day development of one amongst many types.) It is also the case
that some auloi were single pipes, others double, and still others, triple. It
would seem also that there was considerable variation in loudness and the
associated force needed to play them. It should scarcely be surprising that
there were such wide variations across a span of perhaps six centuries and a
geographical spread that stretches over most of the Mediterranean region. I
mean, what did guitars or saxophones (never mind electric ones) look like six
hundred years ago?
Jerry Kohl
> > mind the sort of bamboo whistle flutes that still go by that name. In other contexts,
> "pipe"
> > can mean a bagpipe. In others still, a shawm or similar "reed pipe".
>
> It's difficult for me to explain. Look at the next book, please. There are
> many pictures of ancient Greek period.
>
> Max Wegner "Griechenland"(second edition, 1970)
> in the series Heinrich Besseler und Max Schneider "Musikgeschichte in Bildern"
Yes, quite. I know the book and series well, although I don't have a copy to hand, and have
not consulted it in some years. I believe you will find that (for example) there is no
visible evidence of bamboo construction (which indeed would be exceedingly strange!), and
certainly no sign of a whistle mechanism for sound production. An illustration like this:
<http://www.archaeonia.com/arts/music/aulos.htm>
seems to show slighty conical tubes (but of course the artist may have simply failed to
represent cylindrical tubes accurately), but it is clearly a reed instrument, and most
probably double rather than single reeds.
There are depictions of transverse flutes, though they are not particularly common. Oddly
enough, though duct flutes (in the form of bone whistles, perhaps bird-calls rather than
strictly musical instruments) have been found in prehistoric archaeological sites, the
development of two-handed whistle flutes seems to come later than the Graeco-Roman period, at
least in the European geographical area. For an outline of duct-flute history, see:
<http://members.iinet.net.au/~nickl/torture2.html>
John Briggs
Actually, I was referring to the "public order" aspect, rather than the
instrument! Today, female players of the baroque oboe will also play the
recorder: they seem not to be the wildest members of EM ensembles, however -
although I live in hope :-)
--
John Briggs
Jerry Kohl
I see where you're coming from! Ah, well, from that point of view I think
you'll find that Plato, Xenophon, or whoever were much less concerned with what
instrument was being played (or, indeed, whether any music was involved at all)
as they were with the corrupting force that is the female of the species (men,
of course, being the only relevant corruptees)!.
Yvonne & Norman Rowe
Norm
"Jerry Kohl" <jerom...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3F6E9D94...@comcast.net...
Jerry Kohl
> Oboes and saxophones hadn't been invented yet.
>
> Norm
>
> "Jerry Kohl" <jerom...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:3F6E9D94...@comcast.net...
> > Ken Moore wrote:
> >
> > > In article <BB9392AD.1B24E%r.tur...@attSPAMLESS.net>, Roman Turovsky
> > > <r.tur...@attSPAMLESS.net> writes
> > > >Didn't Plato hate music?
> > >
> > > He thought flutes were a menace to public order,
> >
> > "Flutes"?
(I respectfully decline your invitation to top-post.)
As we discussed earlier on this thread, the Greek word "aulos" (which has
traditionally been mistranslated as "flute") was in use for over 600 years
and covered a wide variety of double- and single-reed instruments--and
possibly, in the compound word "plagiaulos" (="oblique aulos"), even the
transverse flute, though some opinions hold that this, too, was a reed
instrument. In that context, the oboe and saxophone are nothing more than
recent flash-in-the-pan aulos variants. The real irony of the traditional
English translation is that, at the time it first became current, it referred
to the instrument we today generally call the recorder--an instrument
completely unknown in Ancient Greek and Roman times.
Klaus Ziegler
Klaus
Todd Michel McComb
Klaus Ziegler <klaus....@TU-Ilmenau.de> wrote:
>Are there any recordings of music from that time?
There are several. It has become rather popular since the notation
has been deciphered. See:
http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/cds/k617069.htm
... which also contains references to other recordings.
Todd McComb
mcc...@medieval.org
Jerry Kohl
Obviously there are no recordings dating back that far, but there have been a
number of recordings made of the few surviving pieces. Needless to say, questions
of performance practice are highly speculative.
Two recordings that I can lay my hands on without actually getting up and leaving
the room are:
Musique de la Grčce Antique (Atrium Musicae de Madrid, dir. Gregorio
Paniagua) Harmonia Mundi HMA 1901015
Mousike tes Arkhaias Elladas (OP & PO Orchestra, soloists, dir.
Christodoulos Halaris) Orata ORANGM 2013
The former, recorded in 1979, includes a few forgeries once thought to have been
genuine, and these are performed satirically, using "genuine 17th and 18th century
instruments", but there is absolutely no warning about this on the jacket or in
the booklet. The styles employed are exuberant and vary wildly from piece to piece
(borrowing elements of North Indian or Japanese musics, amongst others), but that
may be deemed appropriate given the wide differences in dates involved.
The second recording is more recent but bears no copyright year. It includes a few
pieces that technically belong to the Byzantine period rather than Ancient Greece,
and is much more uniform in style, as well as being more scholastically sober.