PZB Fan Fiction
Aidan Cross
Poppy's work that some of her fans have done on http://www.fanfiction.net ?
They've written stuff like Steve and Ghost's first encounter, Soren from
EC's background etc... I only just came across them but didn't bother
reading them... they got good reviews but I figured they couldn't be half as
good since they weren't written by Poppy herself.
Virtually Yours,
Aidan
(remove NOSPAM to reply personally)
Cliff Evans
>
> This might have come up before..... has anyone read the stories based on
> Poppy's work that some of her fans have done on http://www.fanfiction.net ?
> They've written stuff like Steve and Ghost's first encounter, Soren from
> EC's background etc... I only just came across them but didn't bother
> reading them... they got good reviews but I figured they couldn't be half as
> good since they weren't written by Poppy herself.
Fanfiction makes me think of people who insist on dressing like and
speaking Klingon. I'll read what *she* wrote, and trust my own
imagination over the idle scrawl of others.
--
Cliff Evans
<boz...@earthlink.net>
----------------------------------------------------------
"The image of your head on the end of a stick
is a strong incentive toward 'visualizing world peace.'"
-Boyd Rice
----------------------------------------------------------
Brad Heck
>Fanfiction makes me think of people who insist on dressing like and
>speaking Klingon.
Not to mention *smelling* like Trekies, Renaissance Fairies or Civil War
"Re-enactors," all of which are World-Historically Bad Things....
Brad
"Site Of Fatal Auto Accident Tritely Commemorated ."
_The Onion_
5/9/01
Matti Räihä
I quite enjoy reading fanfiction, myself. I find it
interesting to see how readers portray their
favourite characters and how they develop their
own plotlines. Though lots of the fanfiction around
is quite bad... but there are good ones, too.
You just have to look for them.
-M
Aidan Cross <aidan...@NOSPAMbtinternet.com> kirjoitti
viestissä:9gm01g$jgs$1...@uranium.btinternet.com...
Jengou
> This might have come up before..... has anyone read the stories based on
> Poppy's work that some of her fans have done on http://www.fanfiction.net ?
> They've written stuff like Steve and Ghost's first encounter, Soren from
> EC's background etc... I only just came across them but didn't bother
> reading them... they got good reviews but I figured they couldn't be half as
> good since they weren't written by Poppy herself.
Yeah. I haven't read a lot of PZB fics, but I think my fave is the one
Jim wrote a long time back. The one about the horse urine, short and
sweet. Too short, actually, but who am I to complain? The
characterization in it was probably one of the best.
May I nag a little? No? Thank you. Most of the Poppy fics out there,
especially the LS fics, are about Ghost and Steve having sex or being
quite sappy with each other, and no wonder, IMHO. But G&S are such
weirdly real characters, or something, that it's really, really hard
to write them in character. Even the better fics suffer from this
problem. And because of this, I personally can't read the fanfic
sex-scenes. It just seems wrong to me.
Something rude and bitchy I wanted to say (this NG just seems to
absorb the nastiness in me :-/ ). I've been reading fanfics for years,
and there are some really good fics, and LOADS of crap that come with
it. But the nice thing is, they're all free. I like that, even though
it means I have to spend more time sifting out the bad fics than
reading the good ones. And I really want to read Caitlin R. Kiernan's
fanfic story about Ghost as a kid. But the idea of having to shell out
$40 for "From Weird and Distant Shores" because that's where the story
is hidden just gives me the urge to...do something vulgar with my
face. I'm not saying that Ms. Kiernan isn't a fab author and that the
rest of the stories in FWaDS aren't worth the money, but I have never
read any of her novels or anything. I know Ms. Kiernan got permission
from PZB to borrow her characters, and the short story must be pretty
good if PZB would permit it, but I dunno...
Jengou
Poppy Z. Brite
>absorb the nastiness in me :-/ ). I've been reading fanfics for years,
>and there are some really good fics, and LOADS of crap that come with
>it. But the nice thing is, they're all free. I like that, even though
>it means I have to spend more time sifting out the bad fics than
>reading the good ones. And I really want to read Caitlin R. Kiernan's
>fanfic story about Ghost as a kid. But the idea of having to shell out
>$40 for "From Weird and Distant Shores" because that's where the story
>is hidden just gives me the urge to...do something vulgar with my
>face. I'm not saying that Ms. Kiernan isn't a fab author and that the
>rest of the stories in FWaDS aren't worth the money, but I have never
>read any of her novels or anything. I know Ms. Kiernan got permission
>from PZB to borrow her characters, and the short story must be pretty
>good if PZB would permit it, but I dunno...
>
>Jengou
I don't believe Cait's story about Ghost and Miz Deliverance deserves to be
classified as "fanfic," as I thought fan fiction, by definition, was
unauthorized work written by amateurs. Caitlin, as you note, is a professional
writer who absolutely had my permission to use the characters. From what I've
seen, this is known in publishing as "shared-world" fiction.
Someone on the Q&A section of my website recently asked me about my feelings
regarding fanfic. Since it wasn't something I'd thought about a great deal, I
answered fairly noncommitally, but I've since come to realize that my feelings
about it are very mixed (hello, Gemini). On the one hand, it is flattering
when readers care about your characters so much that they feel compelled to
create their own stories about them. On the other hand, I suspect some of the
Missing-Mile-fanfic authors might be dismayed to know that their creations have
actually lessened the (already admittedly remote) chance that I will write more
about their favorite characters. I'm told that when the late Marion Zimmer
Bradley was sued by a fan for writing a story that was supposedly based on a
piece of fanfic, Bradley had to scrap a book she'd been working on for months,
because she couldn't prove that she hadn't been aware of the fanfic before
that. I'm no admirer of Bradley, but I seriously doubt that she needed to rip
off fans for her ideas. My restlessness with my old characters, subject
matter, and style + the possibility of some troglodyte claiming I stole "their"
Steve-and-Ghost idea = absolutely no impetus for a road trip back to Missing
Mile.
PZB
skellingtonscribe
Brad Heck wrote:
> Cliff wrote:
>
> >Fanfiction makes me think of people who insist on dressing like and
> >speaking Klingon.
>
> Not to mention *smelling* like Trekies, Renaissance Fairies or Civil War
> "Re-enactors," all of which are World-Historically Bad Things....
>
> Brad
That's right. I'll take my wax museums over those blasted, aging "actors"
doing the Battle of Gettysburg any day.
SS
GhostAngel
> Aidan Cross wrote:
>
> > This might have come up before..... has anyone read the stories based on
> > Poppy's work that some of her fans have done on http://www.fanfiction.net ?
> > They've written stuff like Steve and Ghost's first encounter, Soren from
> > EC's background etc... I only just came across them but didn't bother
> > reading them... they got good reviews but I figured they couldn't be half as
> > good since they weren't written by Poppy herself.
*sigh* no sense even arguing with the bias on this newsgroup...
>
> Yeah. I haven't read a lot of PZB fics, but I think my fave is the one
> Jim wrote a long time back. The one about the horse urine, short and
> sweet. Too short, actually, but who am I to complain? The
> characterization in it was probably one of the best.
*cough*
>
> May I nag a little? No? Thank you. Most of the Poppy fics out there,
> especially the LS fics, are about Ghost and Steve having sex or being
> quite sappy with each other, and no wonder, IMHO. But G&S are such
> weirdly real characters, or something, that it's really, really hard
> to write them in character. Even the better fics suffer from this
> problem. And because of this, I personally can't read the fanfic
> sex-scenes. It just seems wrong to me.
>
> Something rude and bitchy I wanted to say (this NG just seems to
> absorb the nastiness in me :-/ ). I've been reading fanfics for years,
> and there are some really good fics, and LOADS of crap that come with
> it. But the nice thing is, they're all free. I like that, even though
> it means I have to spend more time sifting out the bad fics than
> reading the good ones. And I really want to read Caitlin R. Kiernan's
> fanfic story about Ghost as a kid. But the idea of having to shell out
> $40 for "From Weird and Distant Shores" because that's where the story
> is hidden just gives me the urge to...do something vulgar with my
> face. I'm not saying that Ms. Kiernan isn't a fab author and that the
> rest of the stories in FWaDS aren't worth the money, but I have never
> read any of her novels or anything. I know Ms. Kiernan got permission
> from PZB to borrow her characters, and the short story must be pretty
> good if PZB would permit it, but I dunno...
>
> Jengou
free is good...and it is harmless...but i won't go into that...
GhostAngel
Tony van 't Leven
>
> Someone on the Q&A section of my website recently asked me about my feelings
> regarding fanfic. Since it wasn't something I'd thought about a great deal, I
> answered fairly noncommitally, but I've since come to realize that my feelings
> about it are very mixed (hello, Gemini). On the one hand, it is flattering
> when readers care about your characters so much that they feel compelled to
> create their own stories about them. On the other hand, I suspect some of the
> Missing-Mile-fanfic authors might be dismayed to know that their creations have
> actually lessened the (already admittedly remote) chance that I will write more
> about their favorite characters. I'm told that when the late Marion Zimmer
> Bradley was sued by a fan for writing a story that was supposedly based on a
> piece of fanfic, Bradley had to scrap a book she'd been working on for months,
> because she couldn't prove that she hadn't been aware of the fanfic before
> that. I'm no admirer of Bradley, but I seriously doubt that she needed to rip
> off fans for her ideas. My restlessness with my old characters, subject
> matter, and style + the possibility of some troglodyte claiming I stole "their"
> Steve-and-Ghost idea = absolutely no impetus for a road trip back to Missing
> Mile.
>
> PZB
Ummmm...While you don't plan to go back to MM,NC, please do write more
S&G. Please.
Pretty please.
Pretty please with sugar on top.
Tony
--
Since I type at the top, I have no idea what the following line says -
Tony
A hundred thousand lemmings can't be wrong.
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Ronin Kaile
*drumroll please*
Anne Rice
This would be a case in which fanfic was good. So good that even the bad fan
fics were better than Rice canon.
Give fics a chance.
Ronin
"GhostAngel" <Tainte...@moonshinehollow.com> wrote in message
news:3932a86c.01061...@posting.google.com...
Hyacinth93
>S&G. Please.
>
>Pretty please.
>
>Pretty please with sugar on top.
>
>Tony
>
>
Yeah, just one last story where they all die and we don't have to hear about it
anymore!?
-Aaron
HiRene23
Are you surprised that there is a bias towards Poppy's actual writing as
opposed to fanfic written by amateurs based on her characters??
I've defended fanfic on several occasions in another n.g. based on a TV fandom.
The rule of thumb that needs to be remembered is that everyone knows fanfic
exists, but it's always best for it to exist under the radar, so to speak.
Shoving it in the face(s) of the people who actually own the characters is
simply stupid and rude.
I've read a good share of fanfic, in different fandoms, and I'd say 90+% of it
sucks. There only a few fanfic writers that I will even bother reading
anymore. The idea of PZB fanfic just doesn't appeal to me. Elaborating on
the characters from a novel seems so much more invasive than using the
characters from a collaborative effort, like a TV show, especially one that
isn't even on the air anymore.
Anyway, that's my .02 on fanfic.
Rene
...
That's too bad. I would imagine if they left they would have
to come back. It's only obvious. I can gather up a posse and
we can take out anyone who might distract you from writing
anything your sweet heart wishes to write about.
maimes
...
Yeah, that full house fan fic pisses me off every time.
maime
HiRene23
>
>maime
Not to mention the pain.
http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/9859/new/newepisode.htm
Rene
UShotME
>From: i_smoke_...@hotmail.com (Jengou)
>Date: 6/19/2001 11:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <e03e38de.01061...@posting.google.com>
>
>Aidan Cross wrote:
>
>> This might have come up before..... has anyone read the stories based on
>> Poppy's work that some of her fans have done on http://www.fanfiction.net ?
>> They've written stuff like Steve and Ghost's first encounter, Soren from
>> EC's background etc... I only just came across them but didn't bother
>> reading them... they got good reviews but I figured they couldn't be half
>as
>> good since they weren't written by Poppy herself.
>
>Yeah. I haven't read a lot of PZB fics, but I think my fave is the one
>Jim wrote a long time back. The one about the horse urine, short and
>sweet. Too short, actually, but who am I to complain? The
>characterization in it was probably one of the best.
>
I don't remember this at all. Maybe I'm on too many antihistamines at the
moment. Anybody know what this urine thing is all about?
JR
Hey hey, I saved the world today...
UShotME
>Date: 6/19/2001 4:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3932a86c.01061...@posting.google.com>
>
>i_smoke_...@hotmail.com (Jengou) wrote in message
>news:<e03e38de.01061...@posting.google.com>...
>> Aidan Cross wrote:
>>
>> > This might have come up before..... has anyone read the stories based on
>> > Poppy's work that some of her fans have done on http://www.fanfiction.net
>?
>> > They've written stuff like Steve and Ghost's first encounter, Soren from
>> > EC's background etc... I only just came across them but didn't bother
>> > reading them... they got good reviews but I figured they couldn't be half
>as
>> > good since they weren't written by Poppy herself.
>
>*sigh* no sense even arguing with the bias on this newsgroup...
Yeah...imagine us readers reading the original work of a professional writer,
and not the hack amateur crap churned out by drooling neverwillbes who can't be
bothered to come up with their own shit...
That said, I've occasionally come upon a not-sucky fanfic tale. Makes me
wish the 'author' wouldn't waste his or her time on something so worthless...
Forgive the meanness, but I've got a cold...not that I'm nice when I'm well,
but since I have an excuse for the time being, I might as well use it...
Jules
> I don't believe Cait's story about Ghost and Miz Deliverance deserves to be
> classified as "fanfic," as I thought fan fiction, by definition, was
> unauthorized work written by amateurs. Caitlin, as you note, is a professional
> writer who absolutely had my permission to use the characters. From what I've
> seen, this is known in publishing as "shared-world" fiction.
>
> Someone on the Q&A section of my website recently asked me about my feelings
> regarding fanfic. Since it wasn't something I'd thought about a great deal, I
> answered fairly noncommitally, but I've since come to realize that my feelings
> about it are very mixed (hello, Gemini). On the one hand, it is flattering
> when readers care about your characters so much that they feel compelled to
> create their own stories about them. On the other hand, I suspect some of the
> Missing-Mile-fanfic authors might be dismayed to know that their creations have
> actually lessened the (already admittedly remote) chance that I will write more
> about their favorite characters.
*starts sharpening the kitchen knives*
raggedy annie
> Cliff wrote:
>
> >Fanfiction makes me think of people who insist on dressing like and
> >speaking Klingon.
>
> Not to mention *smelling* like Trekies, Renaissance Fairies or Civil War
> "Re-enactors," all of which are World-Historically Bad Things....
as a former trekkie I take offence! ...no, no I don't.. I
whole-heartedly agree. there's nothing quite so nauseating than a room
full of trekkies with their little plastic light-up phasers up their
arses. *shudder*
annie
GhostAngel
like this, but fanfic is just that FAN fiction. It's just done for
fun, as a release mostly, and its not MEANT to be good really. >_< i
agree with most that most fanfic does suck, however, that is the
reason i am a fan of it. And just for the record, there ARE authors
that not only condone fanfic, but encourage it. It is not meant to be
on par with the creator's canon material, nor is it really meant to be
taken seriously. There are those who read fanfic and those that don't.
There is no middle ground. It is the preference of the fanfic reader
over what kind of fanfic they read. I personally do not like Real
Person Fanfic, be it a show or an actor. But i don't go around
condeming it or anything. Tear away...
GhostAngel
HiRene23
>*would like to put another comment in for this* NOT that anybody will
>like this, but fanfic is just that FAN fiction. It's just done for
>fun, as a release mostly, and its not MEANT to be good really. >
I know of a few "good" fanfic writers who would strongly disagree with this.
>< i
>agree with most that most fanfic does suck, however, that is the
>reason i am a fan of it.
I just can't make sense of that. You like things that suck? <run with it,
Paul> :)
> It is the preference of the fanfic reader
>over what kind of fanfic they read. I personally do not like Real
>Person Fanfic, be it a show or an actor. But i don't go around
>condeming it or anything.
I don't think I agree with your terminology here. I don't consider fanfic
written about fictional characters, like on a TV show, Real Person fanfic.
>Tear away...
This is disagreeing, discussing even, but not tearing. Tearing involves more
caps.
Rene
Tony van 't Leven
> >over what kind of fanfic they read. I personally do not like Real
> >Person Fanfic, be it a show or an actor. But i don't go around
> >condeming it or anything.
>
> I don't think I agree with your terminology here. I don't consider fanfic
> written about fictional characters, like on a TV show, Real Person fanfic.
>
Rene -
I think he is referring to fanfic about a real person who plays a
character, not about fictional characters.
I have this porno thing I wrote a while back about Uma Thurman...if I
could just find it again... the computer it was in has been disassembled
due to a crapped out motherboard, and I'm trying to make the HD work in
other computers.
Tony
--
Since I type at the top, I have no idea what the following line says -
Tony
"There are no personality disorders, only disordered personalities."
-almedia
Laura
The "fans" have basically "ficked" us all out of any further stories
about Steve & Ghost. Way to go.
On 20 Jun 2001 16:08:25 -0700, Tainte...@moonshinehollow.com
Cliff Evans
>
> i_smoke_...@hotmail.com (Jengou) wrote in message news:<e03e38de.01061...@posting.google.com>...
> > Aidan Cross wrote:
> >
> > > This might have come up before..... has anyone read the stories based on
> > > Poppy's work that some of her fans have done on http://www.fanfiction.net ?
> > > They've written stuff like Steve and Ghost's first encounter, Soren from
> > > EC's background etc... I only just came across them but didn't bother
> > > reading them... they got good reviews but I figured they couldn't be half as
> > > good since they weren't written by Poppy herself.
> *sigh* no sense even arguing with the bias on this newsgroup...
Even better...fanfic is like the tribute bands you see at cruddy bars.
"Not Poppy Z. Brite, but an INCREDIBLE SIMULATION."
I look at it this way: If you're a good writer, you're writing your own
ideas and coming up with your own stories. Why read something that's
just going to resemble something you've already read and leave you with
a greasy aftertaste of the inferior? Free doesn't mean it's worth
reading or expending time and energy, just that it's not costing anyone money.
Cliff Evans
>
> May I please make a point. Two Words. Or maybe just One Name.
>
> *drumroll please*
>
> Anne Rice
>
> This would be a case in which fanfic was good. So good that even the bad fan
> fics were better than Rice canon.
> Give fics a chance.
Talk about damning with faint praise...
"It sucks *less* than what Anne Rice is writing right now!"
Good lord, I'm waiting for the day she starts scrawling her stories on
the walls of her home in her own feces.
UShotME
throw in my stock response to the "it's just for fun and *some* real-life
writers don't even care!" little argument:
ASK the real-life author you're stepping all over if they care. If they do,
then don't do it. If they don't, then do it and keep it to yourself...is that
too much to ask of you people? But of course it is, because you know as well
as I do that MOST writers would say "please don't"...
Jengou
> I don't believe Cait's story about Ghost and Miz Deliverance deserves to be
> classified as "fanfic," as I thought fan fiction, by definition, was
> unauthorized work written by amateurs.
Not really. Fanfiction is, as the name implies, merely fiction based
on a book/whatnot written by fans of the book/whatnot. Most of it is
crap, yeah, but there are good stuff, and doesn't have to be written
by amateurs. And yes, they're usually unauthorized, but in Bradley's
case, they -were- authorized, and were still called fanfiction.
Caitlin, as you note, is a professional
> writer who absolutely had my permission to use the characters. From what I've
> seen, this is known in publishing as "shared-world" fiction.
Ok! ^_^ Sorry for calling Ms. Kiernan's work fanfiction.
> Someone on the Q&A section of my website recently asked me about my feelings
> regarding fanfic. Since it wasn't something I'd thought about a great deal, I
> answered fairly noncommitally, but I've since come to realize that my feelings
> about it are very mixed (hello, Gemini). On the one hand, it is flattering
> when readers care about your characters so much that they feel compelled to
> create their own stories about them. On the other hand, I suspect some of the
> Missing-Mile-fanfic authors might be dismayed to know that their creations have
> actually lessened the (already admittedly remote) chance that I will write more
> about their favorite characters. I'm told that when the late Marion Zimmer
> Bradley was sued by a fan for writing a story that was supposedly based on a
> piece of fanfic, Bradley had to scrap a book she'd been working on for months,
> because she couldn't prove that she hadn't been aware of the fanfic before
> that. I'm no admirer of Bradley, but I seriously doubt that she needed to rip
> off fans for her ideas. My restlessness with my old characters, subject
> matter, and style + the possibility of some troglodyte claiming I stole "their"
> Steve-and-Ghost idea = absolutely no impetus for a road trip back to Missing
> Mile.
But you forgot something, or didn't know it: Bradley openly
-encouraged- her fans to write fanfiction. She probably found them
flattering, like some authors would, and didn't think they'd be of any
harm. It was because Bradley allowed them and made them legal that the
fan could sue Bradley for 'stealing' the fan's idea. After her
incident though, I think most professional authors learned that even
if you -do- like fanfics written based on your work, the only way to
encourage it at all is to turn a blind eye to it.
I'm very sad that fanfics have lessened your inclination to write more
stories taking place in Missing Mile; I'm sure many ficcers didn't
realize that their fics would make you feel this way. You've created
such interesting characters, we readers just really want to read more
about them. Now that you've -said- that though, maybe ficcers will be
more inclined to write fics, but I dunno.
As a side note, I checked out the story about Soren at fanfiction.net,
and I really enjoyed it. There's just about no chance that PZB would
write another story with Soren in it, and I -adored- the boy. Reading
that story made something in me go 'whoosh' ^_^ Feels great!
Jengou
GhostAngel
> PZB wrote:
>
> > I don't believe Cait's story about Ghost and Miz Deliverance deserves to be
> > classified as "fanfic," as I thought fan fiction, by definition, was
> > unauthorized work written by amateurs.
>
> Not really. Fanfiction is, as the name implies, merely fiction based
> on a book/whatnot written by fans of the book/whatnot. Most of it is
> crap, yeah, but there are good stuff, and doesn't have to be written
> by amateurs. And yes, they're usually unauthorized, but in Bradley's
> case, they -were- authorized, and were still called fanfiction.
*in agreement here*
>
> Caitlin, as you note, is a professional
> > writer who absolutely had my permission to use the characters. From what I've
> > seen, this is known in publishing as "shared-world" fiction.
>
> Ok! ^_^ Sorry for calling Ms. Kiernan's work fanfiction.
>
> > Someone on the Q&A section of my website recently asked me about my feelings
> > regarding fanfic. Since it wasn't something I'd thought about a great deal, I
> > answered fairly noncommitally, but I've since come to realize that my feelings
> > about it are very mixed (hello, Gemini). On the one hand, it is flattering
> > when readers care about your characters so much that they feel compelled to
> > create their own stories about them. On the other hand, I suspect some of the
> > Missing-Mile-fanfic authors might be dismayed to know that their creations have
> > actually lessened the (already admittedly remote) chance that I will write more
> > about their favorite characters.
*sigh*
I'm told that when the late Marion Zimmer
> > Bradley was sued by a fan for writing a story that was supposedly based on a
> > piece of fanfic, Bradley had to scrap a book she'd been working on for months,
> > because she couldn't prove that she hadn't been aware of the fanfic before
> > that. I'm no admirer of Bradley, but I seriously doubt that she needed to rip
> > off fans for her ideas. My restlessness with my old characters, subject
> > matter, and style + the possibility of some troglodyte claiming I stole "their"
> > Steve-and-Ghost idea = absolutely no impetus for a road trip back to Missing
> > Mile.
>
> But you forgot something, or didn't know it: Bradley openly
> -encouraged- her fans to write fanfiction. She probably found them
> flattering, like some authors would, and didn't think they'd be of any
> harm. It was because Bradley allowed them and made them legal that the
> fan could sue Bradley for 'stealing' the fan's idea. After her
> incident though, I think most professional authors learned that even
> if you -do- like fanfics written based on your work, the only way to
> encourage it at all is to turn a blind eye to it.
>
> I'm very sad that fanfics have lessened your inclination to write more
> stories taking place in Missing Mile; I'm sure many ficcers didn't
> realize that their fics would make you feel this way. You've created
> such interesting characters, we readers just really want to read more
> about them. Now that you've -said- that though, maybe ficcers will be
> more inclined to write fics, but I dunno.
>
I feel bad that Poppy feels that way. ;_;
> As a side note, I checked out the story about Soren at fanfiction.net,
> and I really enjoyed it. There's just about no chance that PZB would
> write another story with Soren in it, and I -adored- the boy. Reading
> that story made something in me go 'whoosh' ^_^ Feels great!
>
You see? that is just it...we write about characters in fanfics
because we speculate about what happened to them. Though it would be
upsetting to find another author as against fanfic as
*cough*AnneRice*cough* :((
Ghost
Who is gonna just let this topic go....
Poppy Z. Brite
>PZB wrote:
>
>> I don't believe Cait's story about Ghost and Miz Deliverance deserves to be
>> classified as "fanfic," as I thought fan fiction, by definition, was
>> unauthorized work written by amateurs.
>
>Not really. Fanfiction is, as the name implies, merely fiction based
>on a book/whatnot written by fans of the book/whatnot. Most of it is
>crap, yeah, but there are good stuff, and doesn't have to be written
>by
I should have clarified that the story in question, "Night Story 1973," is a
COLLABORATION between me and Caitlin. I thought I had said so in my previous
post, but I have a bad case of almost-finished-novelitis and am having a hard
time making myself understood.
>But you forgot something, or didn't know it: Bradley openly
>-encouraged- her fans to write fanfiction.
No, I didn't know that. Sounds like it really bit her on the ass.
>As a side note, I checked out the story about Soren at fanfiction.net,
>and I really enjoyed it. There's just about no chance that PZB would
>write another story with Soren in it,
How can anyone know or assume this? That's what kinda burns me up about this
fanfic stuff. I'm not saying none of it is good, or that its authors are
trying to rip me off. But how can anyone *know* what I am or am not going to
write, or might have written had I not learned that someone has already written
it? How can anyone know what Soren's background is? How can anyone know, for
Chrissake, what happened during Steve and Ghost's "first encounter," or even if
there was one?
These are senseless questions with no answers -- I realize it's all speculative
and all written in fun. As I said before, I'm not entirely against the
existence of fanfic and certainly wouldn't try to stop people from writing it.
But as a cranky, hermitish author used to being God, it chafes me somehow.
PZB
Paul Bens
onlysle...@aol.com wrote on 6/21/01 3:32 PM:
> Jengou wrote:
>
>> As a side note, I checked out the story about Soren at fanfiction.net,
>> and I really enjoyed it. There's just about no chance that PZB would
>> write another story with Soren in it,
>
> How can anyone know or assume this? That's what kinda burns me up about this
> fanfic stuff. I'm not saying none of it is good, or that its authors are
> trying to rip me off. But how can anyone *know* what I am or am not going to
> write, or might have written had I not learned that someone has already
> written it?
This is exactly what interests me about this subject. I mean, I can
understand fanfic for projects like television shows, etc. Fanfic for those
types of things are a completely different medium. But doing fanfic based
on works of fiction to me seems to border on plagarism (sp?) and potentially
deprives the author of the original work of the opportunity to pursue their
voice in characters they have created.
As PZB said, how can fans know what an author will or will not write in the
future? All these people who have written Steve & Ghosts first "encounter"
could have pontentially threatened the existence of "Stay Awake". Trust me,
as much "sexual tension" as one may see between Ghost and Steve, "Stay
Awake" (which was *not* a story of their "first encounter") was far more
interesting, inventive, germane to the characters, and true to life (IMHO)
than these two boys humping each other.
I also question how we as readers can ever know the characters as well as
the author. Poppy has often said (regarding her characters) things like:
"That's who they are." "That's what they went through. "That's where they
took me." (All paraphrased). This concept fascinates me and rings true to
me. As much as I may love these character she has created, I do not know
them as intimately as she does. And just because I love those characters and
want certain things to happen to them, doesn't mean those characters should
do as *I* would like to see them. That may not be true to the characters as
the author knows them.
Another aspect of it: That the "author" of an original work can even
pontentially be sued by a fanfic writer (and the original author *can* be
sued whether that author has "approved" fanfic either by consent or lack of
admonition) is absurd!
Also, if one is inspired by an author, why does one want to take that
authors' characters and elaborate on them? Why not take that inspiration
and channel the energy into creating your own world and your own special
characters?
Anyhow...my 2 cents
KiernanCR
>I should have clarified that the story in question, "Night Story 1973," is a
>COLLABORATION between me and Caitlin.<<
Ditto "The Rest of the Wrong Thing" in WRONG THINGS.
>>But as a cranky, hermitish author used to being God, it chafes me somehow.<<
Imitation may (or may not) be the most sincere form of flattery. It can also be
annoying as hell.
In Pain and Wonder,
CRK
"Some things have to be believed to be seen . . ." - The Shroud
Paul Bens
thum...@earthlink.net wrote on 6/21/01 5:41 PM:
This should have read:
> (and the original author *can* be sued whether OR NOT that author has
KiernanCR
>I mean, I can
>understand fanfic for projects like television shows, etc. Fanfic for those
>types of things are a completely different medium. But doing fanfic based
>on works of fiction to me seems to border on plagarism<<
It isn't exactly plagiarism, as fanfic isn't stealing the *words* an author has
written, but it *is* a clear copyright violation, as ideas, characters, etc.
are being used without permission.
Which is not to say that fans necessarily mean disrespect to the author, but
legally, that hardly matters.
>>Another aspect of it: That the "author" of an original work can even
>pontentially be sued by a fanfic writer (and the original author *can* be
>sued whether that author has "approved" fanfic either by consent or lack of
>admonition) is absurd!<<
Yes, but litigation is a cornerstone of our society. Almost anyone can sue over
almost anything at the drop of a hat. But most of these lawsuits are frivilous,
and a fan's suit against an author, charging that by using an idea resembling a
piece of fanfic the author has violated copyright law, would *certainly* be
such a frivolity. Fanfic may not be copyrighted, because the fanfic authors do
not own the characters involved.
Hyacinth93
>
>PZB
>
it would piss me off too...i've never had a desire to read fanfiction. I could
go on about it, but, i think that about sums up my stance on it.
-Aaron
Hyacinth93
>"Some things have to be believed to be seen . . ." - The Shroud
>
the chick from the shrourd use to work at the Hot Topic in Fresno... alot of
the people i use to work with who had been with the company for a while knew
her, i never met her though, i haven't ever even listened to them...
-Aaron
"To love is to lose, and to lose is to die..."
-Death in June
Pandora
desire to write it, and, were I a published author, I think it would agitate
the hell outta me. It's one thing to gain inspiration from another author's
work, but an entirely different thing to post/publish it as your own
creation, whether under the title "fanfic" or not. But that's just me.....
Hyacinth93 <hyaci...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010621211954...@ng-fk1.aol.com...
Frugal Syntax 33
>I quite enjoy reading fanfiction, myself. I find it
>interesting to see how readers portray their
>favourite characters and how they develop their
>own plotlines. Though lots of the fanfiction around
>is quite bad... but there are good ones, too.
>You just have to look for them.
eh,
it's like a lack of imagination to even write fiction based on other people's
works.
-amy
Frugal Syntax 33
>
>*drumroll please*
>
>Anne Rice
>
>This would be a case in which fanfic was good. So good that even the bad fan
>fics were better than Rice canon.
>Give fics a chance.
>
an eight year-old first learning about sex can write better than her.
-amy
Brad Heck
>"It sucks *less* than what Anne Rice is writing right now!"
>
>Good lord, I'm waiting for the day she starts scrawling her stories on
>the walls of her home in her own feces.
>
Oh, come on, Cliff! You know that she's saving her own feces *and* urine for
posterity in one-quart Mason jars now.
She's also "growing her nails out" as a way of combating the filthy, filthy
bacteria surrounding her....
Brad
"Site Of Fatal Auto Accident Tritely Commemorated ."
_The Onion_
5/9/01
UShotME
>Date: 6/21/2001 5:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <B757E23C.A2CC%thum...@earthlink.net>
>
>
>This is exactly what interests me about this subject. I mean, I can
>understand fanfic for projects like television shows, etc. Fanfic for those
>types of things are a completely different medium. But doing fanfic based
>on works of fiction to me seems to border on plagarism (sp?) and potentially
>deprives the author of the original work of the opportunity to pursue their
>voice in characters they have created.
It doesn't border on plagiarism, it *is* plagiarism. Whenever people try and
defend this blatantly illegal act, they come up with three ludicrous arguments:
1) that poorly written plagiarism is not as bad, less illegal I suppose, than
well written, 2) that they're not 'plagiarizing' but 'advertising', and 3) it's
just for fun, geez, take a chill pill man...#1 is irrelevant (good or bad,
better or worse, it's still illegal), #2 is just fuckin' silly, and #3 is very
telling...
And, you know, I'm not even against the act of writing fanfic. I think it's
a potentially worthwhile exercise. What I'm against is the fan fiction
websites that make this crud available to everybody in the goddamn world. Mass
distribution is what makes it illegal, and these little people can't help but
suck whatever teensy-weensy bit of recognition they can get from 'their'
stories...it isn't enough that they have these generic brand stories for
themselves, they have to SHARE...oh, but they put a disclaimer on it, so it's
okay...whatever...
>
>Another aspect of it: That the "author" of an original work can even
>pontentially be sued by a fanfic writer (and the original author *can* be
>sued whether that author has "approved" fanfic either by consent or lack of
>admonition) is absurd!
If fanfiction receives widespread acceptance, the whole issue of ownership is
brought into question. Poppy will have to write PZB fanfiction under an
assumed name and sell the shit cheaper just to stay competitive...this is why
I'm so against these basement dwellers slinging their slop all over the web...
>
>Also, if one is inspired by an author, why does one want to take that
>authors' characters and elaborate on them? Why not take that inspiration
>and channel the energy into creating your own world and your own special
>characters?
Lack of vision. Lack of respect. Wanting to skip a few steps here and
there...
Jengou
> Jengou wrote:
>
> >PZB wrote:
> >
> >> I don't believe Cait's story about Ghost and Miz Deliverance deserves to be
> >> classified as "fanfic," as I thought fan fiction, by definition, was
> >> unauthorized work written by amateurs.
> >
> >Not really. Fanfiction is, as the name implies, merely fiction based
> >on a book/whatnot written by fans of the book/whatnot. Most of it is
> >crap, yeah, but there are good stuff, and doesn't have to be written
> >by
>
> I should have clarified that the story in question, "Night Story 1973," is a
> COLLABORATION between me and Caitlin. I thought I had said so in my previous
> post, but I have a bad case of almost-finished-novelitis and am having a hard
> time making myself understood.
Yay ^_^ Ah, and I've been wondering, is the novel you're working on
the one that's going to be the one in "Wrong Things"?
> >As a side note, I checked out the story about Soren at fanfiction.net,
> >and I really enjoyed it. There's just about no chance that PZB would
> >write another story with Soren in it,
>
> How can anyone know or assume this? That's what kinda burns me up about this
> fanfic stuff. I'm not saying none of it is good, or that its authors are
> trying to rip me off. But how can anyone *know* what I am or am not going to
> write, or might have written had I not learned that someone has already written
> it?
Nobody knows, but actually, whether you have written/will write
something new about Soren may not even matter to some ficcers. They
write fics to show what -they- would have liked to have happen, to
please themselves, really, and to whoever fans that want more of
something but aren't getting it/yet. It's like more of G&S. Even after
Stay Awake is published, there are still G&S fics sprouting. Some
people can never get enough. And if you look hard enough, there might
be a fic about Trevor and Zach breaking up, or Steve killing Ghost,
whatever. Quite an exciting concept, if you ask me, but whether it's
worth reading will of course depend on the ficcer's skill, to make it
believable. I'm quite happy to read the Soren fic because there hasn't
been one since I read EC a couple of years back, and I've been
-wanting- for that long.
Kinda OT, but have you read Lynn Flewelling's "Nightrunner" series?
The sexual tension spans over 1000+ pages, and though some fans may
enjoy this kind of torture, I was majorly relieved to read a fic about
the two main characters just admitting that they are fond of each
other. All the fans had a hunch that this was bound to happen sooner
or later in the series, but sooner was less painful to some. If you
want the sexual tension to last and last and last, then avoid
fanfiction. This didn't detract from the novel, IMHO; the 'real'
reunion was definitely still extremely sweet. I just didn't die from a
heart attack or something.
Of course, none of this justifies fanfics. Fanfics -are- illegal and
unjustifiable. I don't care, I can't write fics for the life of me.
This may be an insult to PZB, but I first read LS because the prologue
I read online reminded me a lot of my fave fic author's writing style.
(her name's Katchan, and she's taken all her fics offline because she
got flamed too often -_-)
However, if fics are bad-bad-bad, then so are fan-webpages dedicated
to a book/series/whatnot. I've seen some LS webpages, with quotes from
the novel and all, why aren't anybody complaining about them? Or is it
because it's a different media? So is LS fanart more 'alright'?
Going back to Lynn Flewelling, she actually joined a mailing list
dedicated to Nightrunner fanfics. She also posted regularily, and I
assume read some the fics that were posted at the list, but when
someone was going to upload them onto a website, she went ballistic,
and requested that the site be taken down, etc, etc (the website was
eventually taken down, of course). I think she wanted the admin to
take the list down too, but the admin kinda refused; the ML was for
Nightrunner fanfics, and if she didn't like them, she shouldn't have
joined in the first place. *shrug*
I'm not trying to take sides, I've just never really understood this
whole deal.
> How can anyone know what Soren's background is? How can anyone know, for
> Chrissake, what happened during Steve and Ghost's "first encounter," or even if
> there was one?
You're the only one who knows, but like you pointed out, it's all just
speculation and written for fun. Some fans are desperate enough to
read pure speculation, and if that's what gets them off, then I don't
see any problem (except that fanfics are ILLEGAL and probably PISS the
original authors OFF, but I don't want to get into that again...).
Jengou
KiernanCR
>>the chick from the shrourd<<
Lydia Fortner.
In Pain and Wonder,
Poppy Z. Brite
>Yay ^_^ Ah, and I've been wondering, is the novel you're working on
>the one that's going to be the one in "Wrong Things"?
The novel I'm working on will be published as a whole, discrete book. My solo
piece in WRONG THINGS is just a 43-page story -- longer than a short story, not
quite a novella.
>Kinda OT, but have you read Lynn Flewelling's "Nightrunner" series?
No ... what is it? The title sounds suspiciously vampirish, but I try to keep
an open mind.
PZB
KiernanCR
>>Kinda OT, but have you read Lynn Flewelling's "Nightrunner" series?
>
>No ... what is it? The title sounds suspiciously vampirish, but I try to
>keep
>an open mind.<<
Probably because of Stephen King's vampire short story, "The Night Flier" (from
NIGHTMARES AND DREAMSCAPES), which I *think* was made into a direct-to-video
movie.
Tony van 't Leven
the video...or was it one of the Turner networks?
Not sure, but saw part of it on TV after I had cable.....
Tony
--
Tony van 't Leven
You mean, she doesn't do that already? *L*
(Couldn't resist, read some AR before I found King.)
(Barker's pretty decent.)
(Then there's this Brite chick who tends to make it more vivid without
going over the top. Ever read anything by her? *L*)
Tony
--
Hyacinth93
yeah- her! She use to work at Hot Topic...
-Aaron
"To love is to lose and to lose is to die."
-Death in June
Hyacinth93
>(from
>NIGHTMARES AND DREAMSCAPES), which I *think* was made into a direct-to-video
>movie.
Yeah, i saw this on like HBO or something and it was bloody awful!
Jengou
> Jengou wrote:
>
> >Yay ^_^ Ah, and I've been wondering, is the novel you're working on
> >the one that's going to be the one in "Wrong Things"?
>
> The novel I'm working on will be published as a whole, discrete book. My solo
> piece in WRONG THINGS is just a 43-page story -- longer than a short story, not
> quite a novella.
Thanks!
> >Kinda OT, but have you read Lynn Flewelling's "Nightrunner" series?
>
> No ... what is it? The title sounds suspiciously vampirish, but I try to keep
> an open mind.
Fantasy; theiving, spying, wizardry, whorehouses and such. Not a
single vampire in sight ^_^ The writing style is really bland and
oatmeal-ish, I don't recommend it, but the story is pretty nice :-)
Jengou
UShotME
>Date: 6/22/2001 2:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20010622175435...@ng-mq1.aol.com>
>
>PZB wrote:
>
>>>Kinda OT, but have you read Lynn Flewelling's "Nightrunner" series?
>>
>>No ... what is it? The title sounds suspiciously vampirish, but I try to
>>keep
>>an open mind.<<
>
>Probably because of Stephen King's vampire short story, "The Night Flier"
>(from
>NIGHTMARES AND DREAMSCAPES), which I *think* was made into a direct-to-video
>movie.
I think it was direct-to-cable, actually. Horrible, horrible movie. And I
*liked* that story. I don't like Stephen King's short stories, but I did like
that one...and then they fucked me. Typical.
Jengou
> >Subject: Re: PZB Fan Fiction
> >Date: 6/19/2001 11:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <e03e38de.01061...@posting.google.com>
> >
> >Aidan Cross wrote:
> >
> >> This might have come up before..... has anyone read the stories based on
> >> Poppy's work that some of her fans have done on http://www.fanfiction.net ?
> >> They've written stuff like Steve and Ghost's first encounter, Soren from
> >> EC's background etc... I only just came across them but didn't bother
> >> reading them... they got good reviews but I figured they couldn't be half
> as
> >> good since they weren't written by Poppy herself.
> >
> >Yeah. I haven't read a lot of PZB fics, but I think my fave is the one
> >Jim wrote a long time back. The one about the horse urine, short and
> >sweet. Too short, actually, but who am I to complain? The
> >characterization in it was probably one of the best.
> >
>
> I don't remember this at all. Maybe I'm on too many antihistamines at the
> moment. Anybody know what this urine thing is all about?
>
>
> JR
Tried looking for it in the a.b.pzb archive, couldn't find it :-/ I
think I was new to the newsgroup and was whining for more G&S stories,
fanfics even, and you scrawled one with flourish. The gist of it was,
G&S were on a road trip, the car skidded on some horse urine, the car
crashed, and G&S died (in each other's arms? I can't remember). Yah
made me cry :-P
Why are you taking so many antihistamines??
Jengou
Jengou
> Even better...fanfic is like the tribute bands you see at cruddy bars.
> "Not Poppy Z. Brite, but an INCREDIBLE SIMULATION."
:-P Well, it's a great way for tribute bands to get more recognition,
and if they're good, I'm not gonna complain. 'Course if their shitty,
then bah.
> I look at it this way: If you're a good writer, you're writing your own
> ideas and coming up with your own stories. Why read something that's
> just going to resemble something you've already read and leave you with
> a greasy aftertaste of the inferior? Free doesn't mean it's worth
> reading or expending time and energy, just that it's not costing anyone money.
Maybe because I'm a narrow-minded little thing, but I'm not very fond
of reading about -new- characters. It takes too much energy to get to
know someone new in a book, and revisiting old ones that you like are
so much more comforting, because you know you like those characters.
If I'm going to read something written by an amateur, I'd much rather
read a fic about Ghost's day at school than an original Mr. Bob's day
at school. With the fic, I can read a fellow reader's take on what
kind of stance Ghost would have at school, whether he gets good grades
in English, does he scrawl lyrics on the bathroom walls, etc. With Mr.
Bob, I wouldn't care, unless the amateur author makes me love Mr. Bob
first. But will amateur authors make me love Mr. Bob. Not likely. For
one thing, I hate the name Bob.
At any rate, I don't get a 'greasy aftertaste of the inferior' after
reading bad fanfiction, 'cos it's just something else totally. An
alternate universe, if you like. You've read Stephen King's "The
Stand", and then you watch the movie, it's totally different. If the
movie sucked, then I know I can still reread the great book. I know
it's a different media and may not apply to fanfiction, but that's how
I feel about fanfiction anyway. The writing style is usually so
different that I can't imagine them as the same.
Some fanfic authors have quite a lot of fans, and if they could still
use that name when/if they publish their future novels, they would
already have a group of supporters, which is great. Also, fanfics
-could- be better than the original work. Who says that the (few)
authors who 'write better' than PZB can't be her fans? :-)
Free means that if it's good, I wouldn't mind reading it. I think it's
great advertisement too. I've been reading fanfics/fancomics based on
a Japanese cartoon (Gundam Wing) for a whole year before I shelled out
a fortune and a half on imported Japanese comic books and 20+ videos.
Anyhow. If you want me to rant about the disadvantages of fics, I can
do that too...
Jengou
Jengou
> Jengou wrote:
>
> >PZB wrote:
> >
> >> I don't believe Cait's story about Ghost and Miz Deliverance deserves to be
> >> classified as "fanfic," as I thought fan fiction, by definition, was
> >> unauthorized work written by amateurs.
> >
> >Not really. Fanfiction is, as the name implies, merely fiction based
> >on a book/whatnot written by fans of the book/whatnot. Most of it is
> >crap, yeah, but there are good stuff, and doesn't have to be written
> >by
>
> I should have clarified that the story in question, "Night Story 1973," is a
> COLLABORATION between me and Caitlin. I thought I had said so in my previous
> post, but I have a bad case of almost-finished-novelitis and am having a hard
> time making myself understood.
Again, this sounds really nasty, but if it's a collaboration, will it
appear in one of your future short stories collection? (there'll be
another one, right? *hope) And just to make this sound a bit nicer, I
ordered "SILK" for a whopping 8 bucks. Amazon sells it from $6.50 -_-
I better love it :-P
And another thing; I heard that you wrote the foreword to "The Thorn
Boy" by Storm Constantine. Is it true?
Jengou
Jengou
> brought into question. Poppy will have to write PZB fanfiction under an
> assumed name and sell the shit cheaper just to stay competitive...this is why
> I'm so against these basement dwellers slinging their slop all over the web...
?? I know of several comic artists who draws their own 'fan' comics.
Usually, it those who have their work published under a certain
publisher which doesn't allow a whole lot of smut, so they make 'fan'
comics privately (not sure of the process, but it's not published by
any official publisher, I think) and sell them for loads of money. So
the style/art/plot is just as good as the original because it's by the
same author, except that the stories are not part of the 'real'
storyline. But this can be speculated...
If you want examples of such comic artists, they are Higuri You
(artist of "Seimaden", "Cutlass", "Ludwig", etc) and Maki Murakami
("Gravitation"). Do a search on Google and you'll get lots of results.
Murakami even has a webpage dedicated to her fancomics...I think it's
lots of fun, but everybody doesn't have to like it (duh).
> >Also, if one is inspired by an author, why does one want to take that
> >authors' characters and elaborate on them? Why not take that inspiration
> >and channel the energy into creating your own world and your own special
> >characters?
Different people show their love for characters in different ways.
PZB's PJ is somewhat bordering on a fanfic on the Beatles, and they
could be pissed too... Paul may be thinking, "How do you know John and
I aren't already sleeping together??" Um, is Paul still alive?
*furrows eyebrows* I have no idea.
Jengou
Tony van 't Leven
John Lennon was murdered in '78? '79? Not sure.
Tony
--
Since I type at the top, I have no idea what the following line says -
Tony
Tired of Telemarketers? Write to Telephone Preference Service, Direct
Marketing
Association, PO box 9014, Farmingdale, New York, 11735-9014
...
>
> jtri...@aol.commonslut (UShotME) wrote in message news:<20010620033439...@ng-mg1.aol.com>...
> > >Subject: Re: PZB Fan Fiction
> > >From: i_smoke_...@hotmail.com (Jengou)
> > >Date: 6/19/2001 11:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time
> > >Message-id: <e03e38de.01061...@posting.google.com>
> > >
> > >Aidan Cross wrote:
> > >
> > >> This might have come up before..... has anyone read the stories based on
> > >> Poppy's work that some of her fans have done on http://www.fanfiction.net ?
> > >> They've written stuff like Steve and Ghost's first encounter, Soren from
> > >> EC's background etc... I only just came across them but didn't bother
> > >> reading them... they got good reviews but I figured they couldn't be half
> > as
> > >> good since they weren't written by Poppy herself.
> > >
> > >Yeah. I haven't read a lot of PZB fics, but I think my fave is the one
> > >Jim wrote a long time back. The one about the horse urine, short and
> > >sweet. Too short, actually, but who am I to complain? The
> > >characterization in it was probably one of the best.
> > >
> >
> > I don't remember this at all. Maybe I'm on too many antihistamines at the
> > moment. Anybody know what this urine thing is all about?
> >
> >
> > JR
I thought it was just left over from Ryan the Feral Urine
boy. heh
maimes
Poppy Z. Brite
>> I should have clarified that the story in question, "Night Story 1973," is
>a
>> COLLABORATION between me and Caitlin. I thought I had said so in my
>previous
>> post, but I have a bad case of almost-finished-novelitis and am having a
>hard
>> time making myself understood.
>
>Again, this sounds really nasty, but if it's a collaboration, will it
>appear in one of your future short stories collection? (there'll be
>another one, right? *hope)
I'll probably be doing another collection next year, but have no plans to
include "Night Story 1973," as I don't want to compete with Cait's book. If
the limited edition is too expensive, why not just wait for the trade?
>And another thing; I heard that you wrote the foreword to "The Thorn
>Boy" by Storm Constantine. Is it true?
Yes, I like Storm, although I'm getting a little tired of her public comments
about my sexual orientation.
PZB
UShotME
>Message-id: <e03e38de.01062...@posting.google.com>
>
>> If fanfiction receives widespread acceptance, the whole issue of
>ownership is
>> brought into question. Poppy will have to write PZB fanfiction under an
>> assumed name and sell the shit cheaper just to stay competitive...this is
>why
>> I'm so against these basement dwellers slinging their slop all over the
>web...
>
>?? I know of several comic artists who draws their own 'fan' comics.
>Usually, it those who have their work published under a certain
>publisher which doesn't allow a whole lot of smut, so they make 'fan'
>comics privately (not sure of the process, but it's not published by
>any official publisher, I think) and sell them for loads of money. So
>the style/art/plot is just as good as the original because it's by the
>same author, except that the stories are not part of the 'real'
>storyline. But this can be speculated...
And this raises yet another question: So?
>
>> >Also, if one is inspired by an author, why does one want to take that
>> >authors' characters and elaborate on them? Why not take that inspiration
>> >and channel the energy into creating your own world and your own special
>> >characters?
>
>Different people show their love for characters in different ways.
Like stealing from their creator...
I love Andrew Compton so much, I think I'll raid Poppy's house for
panties...(I'll bring some Beggin' Strips with me to combat the doggies.)
>PZB's PJ is somewhat bordering on a fanfic on the Beatles, and they
>could be pissed too... Paul may be thinking, "How do you know John and
>I aren't already sleeping together??" Um, is Paul still alive?
>*furrows eyebrows* I have no idea.
But, you see, The Beatles are not fictional characters created by someone. I
guess if you're super religious, you could say they're the creations of some
god somewhere and Poppy is stealing from him/Him/her/Her...but I think the
sweet lordy lord's creations are public domain...you have yet to make a valid
point...
Umm...and yeah, Paul McCartney is still alive...in a sense...
UShotME
>Message-id: <e03e38de.01062...@posting.google.com>
>
>Cliff Evans <boz...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:<3B316169...@earthlink.net>...
>
>> Even better...fanfic is like the tribute bands you see at cruddy bars.
>> "Not Poppy Z. Brite, but an INCREDIBLE SIMULATION."
>
>:-P Well, it's a great way for tribute bands to get more recognition,
>and if they're good, I'm not gonna complain. 'Course if their shitty,
>then bah.
>
>> I look at it this way: If you're a good writer, you're writing your own
>> ideas and coming up with your own stories. Why read something that's
>> just going to resemble something you've already read and leave you with
>> a greasy aftertaste of the inferior? Free doesn't mean it's worth
>> reading or expending time and energy, just that it's not costing anyone
>money.
>
>Maybe because I'm a narrow-minded little thing, but I'm not very fond
>of reading about -new- characters. It takes too much energy to get to
>know someone new in a book,
It's the shit like this that makes me want to go live in a cave...
UShotME
>Message-id: <e03e38de.01062...@posting.google.com>
Oh yeah! I remember that now. That's the only fanfic I've ever written. :)
How could I forget the crystallized horse piss...
>
>Why are you taking so many antihistamines??
>
Because I thought for a time that I wanted to breathe. Now I'm not so
sure...
Diana
>Paul, Ringo and George are still alive, as of this moment.
>
>John Lennon was murdered in '78? '79? Not sure
He was shot on December 8, 1980 at 10:50pm ET, and died at 11:15.
Not that I'm an obsessed Beatles fan or anything.
Just to toss in my 2 farthings' worth, I think fan fic and tribute bands can be
useful as starting points for amateurs. But I can't bring myself to think of
them as art.
BTW, I'm new here. Name's Diana.
- - - - - -
Truth is too simple for us; we do not like those who
unmask our illusions. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Frugal Syntax 33
>one thing, I hate the name Bob.
what a way to put down all new writers...
-amy
Tony van 't Leven
Welcome. *L*
Tony
--
Since I type at the top, I have no idea what the following line says -
Tony
Dying can be hazardous to your health.
HiRene23
I wonder in those last 25 minutes if he was conscience or not? I wonder what
he said. Are there any reports?
>BTW, I'm new here. Name's Diana.
Welcome, Diana. :)
Rene
Diana
>Thanks Diana. And let me be the first to say "Welcome".
>
>Welcome. *L*
And let me say "Thank you, Tony."
Thank you, Tony. And thank you, Rene!
Jengou
> ownership is
> >> brought into question. Poppy will have to write PZB fanfiction under an
> >> assumed name and sell the shit cheaper just to stay competitive...this is
> why
> >> I'm so against these basement dwellers slinging their slop all over the
> >web...
> >
> >?? I know of several comic artists who draws their own 'fan' comics.
> >Usually, it those who have their work published under a certain
> >publisher which doesn't allow a whole lot of smut, so they make 'fan'
> >comics privately (not sure of the process, but it's not published by
> >any official publisher, I think) and sell them for loads of money. So
> >the style/art/plot is just as good as the original because it's by the
> >same author, except that the stories are not part of the 'real'
> >storyline. But this can be speculated...
>
> And this raises yet another question: So?
So IF PZB would ever want to write fanfiction, she can do it under her
real and slaughter all her 'competitors' if she so desires, and earn
lots of money (why would she sell it cheaper??). I don't think there
would ever be any confusion with the ownership of characters; the
characters will always be PZB's, because she created them. If fics
become legalized (and I don't think that they ever will be, after the
Bradley incident), it will only be the fics' plot's ownership that
will be in question. I thought that was why you were so against fics
*points up*, and so I suggested that what you think may happen may not
be the case.
> >> >Also, if one is inspired by an author, why does one want to take that
> >> >authors' characters and elaborate on them? Why not take that inspiration
> >> >and channel the energy into creating your own world and your own special
> >> >characters?
> >
> >Different people show their love for characters in different ways.
>
> Like stealing from their creator...
I'm not totally sure whether it's -stealing-. The characters are still
PZB's, as well as at her disposal, 100% of the time. Ilegally
borrowing her characters, definitely. Without her permission, yup. But
PZB doesn't -lose- anything, as far as I know. When you like some
characters so much that you think of stories where they're the main
characters, and you ponder their reaction to certain things, what they
were say, write them down, edit and all, I think that's pretty
dedicated. I certainly wouldn't be able to do that if I didn't love
the characters a whole lot, or have very strong feelings for the
characters.
> I love Andrew Compton so much, I think I'll raid Poppy's house for
> panties...(I'll bring some Beggin' Strips with me to combat the doggies.)
Were is the connection between Andrew Compton and PZB's panties?? And
I think that shows a dedication (or lust, whatever) to her panties
rather than to Andrew Compton.
> >PZB's PJ is somewhat bordering on a fanfic on the Beatles, and they
> >could be pissed too... Paul may be thinking, "How do you know John and
> >I aren't already sleeping together??" Um, is Paul still alive?
> >*furrows eyebrows* I have no idea.
>
> But, you see, The Beatles are not fictional characters created by someone.
It seems to me that you're implying that it's more alright to write
fiction based on real people than on characters, and I'm not sure I
agree with you. I certainly wouldn't have appreciated it if people
wrote nasty stories about me sneaking into my brother's bed and raping
him every night. Even if the author states that this is pure fiction.
If someone would write that about me, they either really hate me, or
actually have some -basis- for writing such stories about me, that I
might be a sick pervert and it wouldn't be anything out of the
ordinary of me if I did indeed rape my brother every night. I would
not find that flattering -at all-. I may lost respect from my family
and friends.
However, if ficcers wrote fics about Trevor doing this to his brother,
I don't think it's quite as harmful to his character, for some reason.
We'd have read D and -know- that Trevor did no such thing, that the
ficcer was very weird for writing such things. With real people, you
never know.
Jengou
Jengou
> >> ideas and coming up with your own stories. Why read something that's
> >> just going to resemble something you've already read and leave you with
> >> a greasy aftertaste of the inferior? Free doesn't mean it's worth
> >> reading or expending time and energy, just that it's not costing anyone
> >money.
> >
> >Maybe because I'm a narrow-minded little thing, but I'm not very fond
> >of reading about -new- characters. It takes too much energy to get to
> >know someone new in a book,
>
> It's the shit like this that makes me want to go live in a cave...
>
>
> JR
Oh, I'm not talking about real people, if that's what you're thinking.
There's a big difference between getting to know people and getting to
know characters. With people, you're sharing - I get to know somebody
through conversation, and they also get to know me. With characters,
it's only one way. Not as much retribution, maybe. I love meeting new
ppl. I went sailing with 1 friend and 4 complete strangers for 2 days,
talking nearly obsessively day and night. It's great!
I guess I shouldn't have said that I'm not fond of reading about new
characters, but that sometimes, it's nice to revisit old characters,
like revisiting old friends. Making new friends is fun, but sometimes
it's also necessary and immensely comfy to chatter with friends from
your childhood/school.
So please don't go live in a cave ^_^
Jengou
Jengou
O_o Ok, sorry. I never took more than 2 tablets a day, and I'm
allergic to just about everything. I've never heard of anybody
overdosing on antihistamines, is all. Again, sorry. You have a very
valid reason.
Jengou
Jengou
Sorry, but yeah, I'm -horrible- that way. I've read too many original
writings online, (remember that little boy who sent me his sexual
fantasy about a girl sucking her own nipple? That was one of the
better stories I've received) and have seen way too much crap. If
their writing isn't good enough to be published or recommended to me
from someone I know/respect, then I don't want to read it. Life is too
short for that, unless I get paid for taking chances to read bad
writing. With publishing, at least I know there's been -some-
filtering...
Jengou
Paul Bens
i_smoke_...@hotmail.com wrote on 6/24/01 11:09 AM:
> I'm not totally sure whether it's -stealing-. The characters are still
> PZB's, as well as at her disposal, 100% of the time. Ilegally
> borrowing her characters, definitely. Without her permission, yup.
Isn't this kinda the definition of stealing? I mean, "ilegally
borrowing....without permission."
-BP
Jengou
> Jengou wrote:
> > I'm not totally sure whether it's -stealing-. The characters are still
> > PZB's, as well as at her disposal, 100% of the time. Ilegally
> > borrowing her characters, definitely. Without her permission, yup.
>
>
> Isn't this kinda the definition of stealing? I mean, "ilegally
> borrowing....without permission."
>
> -BP
Hrmm...you're right. Fic authors claim they give the characters back
after the story...I dunno. Well, fics are illegal no matter how you
look at it, so maybe whether it's stealing or not doesn't matter as
much?
Jengou
GhostAngel
I think the key word here was BORROWING not TAKING....
GhostAngel
Paul Bens
Tainte...@moonshinehollow.com wrote on 6/24/01 2:44 PM:
Semantics...
I "borrow" the lawnmower of someone who doesn't know me and they find out
about it (even if I return it), ya think they aren't gonna call the cops?
And do you think the cops aren't gonna press charges because I "borrowed it
without permission"?
And, "without permission" makes "borrowing" "taking". Borrowing by
definition is "Hey, can I borrow this?"...you know, with the owner's
permission. Anyone can play all the word games one wants and justify it the
way one wants, but borrowing without permission *is* stealing.
-BP
(who needs to borrow a quart of milk from Krogers. But it's okay, I'll buy
another later and put it back.)
Paul Bens
This is what is interesting to me about this topic (not just abbout PZB
fanfic or other fan fic).
Why is it people's perception/definition of stealing/borrowing/etc,. becomes
so flexible when it comes to works of art/literature/etc. It's interesting.
As much as I hate lawyers and litigation, I love that it is for just this
reason copyright laws and proprietary rights laws were created...to protect
artists from this "flexible" phenom.
BP
Laura
"He's so Fine" ? (sitting here hoping I got the right song title)
On Sun, 24 Jun 2001 22:51:59 GMT, Paul Bens <thum...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
Laura
(GhostAngel) wrote:
But, when you borrow something, you are supposed to return it in the
same condition that it was in when you borrowed it.
For example, if I borrow my sister - in - law's skirt and cut off two
inches to make it suit my purposes, and then return it, it's really
not the same any more is it? It no longer fits her. It fits me.
When a fan fic writer "borrowers" a story, then alters it to suit
their purpose, can the story be given back to the author in its
original state? I don't think so. I think it is forever altered and
therefore no longer fits the author.
KiernanCR
>>I think the key word here was BORROWING not TAKING....<<
If you *borrow* without *permission*, it's stealing.
In Pain and Wonder,
CRK
"Some things have to be believed to be seen . . ." - The Shroud
Nillo
> in article e03e38de.01062...@posting.google.com, Jengou at
> i_smoke_...@hotmail.com wrote on 6/24/01 1:37 PM:
>
> > Paul wrote:
> Why is it people's perception/definition of stealing/borrowing/etc,.
becomes
> so flexible when it comes to works of art/literature/etc. It's
interesting.
The main reason their perceptions are more flexible is because the reality
is more flexible. The manifestation of ideas cannot be and aren't owned in
the same way land is. This is certainly even recognized in the law itself.
I have some fair use rights to others' works (as do you) in that I can quote
them in order to critique them, or for educational purposes, I can parody
them (and even mke money off the parody), I can reference them in a variety
of ways, etc. I don't, on the other hand, have fair use rights to the money
in your wallet, your motor vehicle, Poppy's pets or the physical copies of
any book she may own, etc.
> As much as I hate lawyers and litigation, I love that it is for just this
> reason copyright laws and proprietary rights laws were created...to
protect
> artists from this "flexible" phenom.
And to protect this flexible phenom *for* artists! Many artists use parody,
reference other works (quoting phrases in jazz, creating collages, detouring
or recasting already extant works, allowing works to go into the public
domain) to make their art. If copyrights and other intellectual property
rights were absolute, for example, Poppy would not have been able to write
characters who were members of the Church Of The Subgenius without paying
out to the owners of that bundle of property rights. Disney would not have
been able to make films like Snow White, which was a story in the public
domain.
It's a poor artist who claims that intellectual property does or should work
in the same way as real property.
Nick
"This is the bitterest pain among men: to have knowledge but no power." --
Herodotus
Paul Bens
l...@bellatlantic.net wrote on 6/24/01 4:26 PM:
I honestly can't remember all the points of the case, so I can't speak well
about it. But I do recall having heard both songs back-to-back at one point
and the similarities were pretty substantial.
-BP
Cliff Evans
> > >Maybe because I'm a narrow-minded little thing, but I'm not very fond
> > >of reading about -new- characters. It takes too much energy to get to
> > >know someone new in a book,
> > It's the shit like this that makes me want to go live in a cave...
> I guess I shouldn't have said that I'm not fond of reading about new
> characters, but that sometimes, it's nice to revisit old characters,
> like revisiting old friends. Making new friends is fun, but sometimes
> it's also necessary and immensely comfy to chatter with friends from
> your childhood/school.
So which is it? Do you not like reading new things or would you just
rather read old things?
And, might I point out...It's a fucking BOOK. How much energy can it
possibly take to read new stories? I usually have at least two books
going most of the time and it's not like I'm exhausted from reading or anything.
I mean, fine. If you'd rather constantly revisit the same stories and
the same characters over and over again, okay. But don't bitch when your
favorite author moves on, because that's not a whole lot of fun for most
other people.
--
Cliff Evans
<boz...@earthlink.net>
----------------------------------------------------------
"The image of your head on the end of a stick
is a strong incentive toward 'visualizing world peace.'"
-Boyd Rice
----------------------------------------------------------
Paul Bens
wrote on 6/24/01 6:50 PM:
>
> Paul Bens <thum...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:B75BBD06.A402%thum...@earthlink.net...
>> in article e03e38de.01062...@posting.google.com, Jengou at
>> i_smoke_...@hotmail.com wrote on 6/24/01 1:37 PM:
>>
>>> Paul wrote:
>
>> Why is it people's perception/definition of stealing/borrowing/etc,.
> becomes
>> so flexible when it comes to works of art/literature/etc. It's
> interesting.
>
> The main reason their perceptions are more flexible is because the reality
> is more flexible.The manifestation of ideas cannot be and aren't owned in
> the same way land is.
Oh, I realize that. However, even as flexible as the realities are, most
people who get caught "borrowing" an artist's work generally stretch those
reasonings out until they're see-through.
> This is certainly even recognized in the law itself.
> I have some fair use rights to others' works (as do you) in that I can quote
> them in order to critique them, or for educational purposes,
Yes, but fair-use is a far cry from the topic which started this thread.
Fair-use is a good and useful tool. However, taking an author's characters
and creating your own story with them without the author's permission is
hardly covered by fair-use.
>I can parody
> them (and even mke money off the parody), I can reference them in a variety
> of ways, etc. I don't, on the other hand, have fair use rights to the money
> in your wallet, your motor vehicle, Poppy's pets or the physical copies of
> any book she may own, etc.
Yes, but again, the topic which started this can hardly be classified as
fair-use.
>
>> As much as I hate lawyers and litigation, I love that it is for just this
>> reason copyright laws and proprietary rights laws were created...to
> protect
>> artists from this "flexible" phenom.
>
> And to protect this flexible phenom *for* artists!
I agree.
>Many artists use parody,
I can not speak for parody as a whole, only from what I know about it
musically. One can parody popular music (for example Weird Al), but one
must still acquire the synch and performance license from the original
composer (as well as the master-use license if one uses the original musical
recordings in any way). If one parodies a song without the proper licences
(which *can* be denied by the original composer) and attempts to profit from
it offer it up to the public in any way (for financial gain or not), they
can be held liable. (Just ask Vanilla Ice).
Other than that, I connot speak intelligently about other forms of parody.
> reference other works (quoting phrases in jazz, creating collages, detouring
> or recasting already extant works, allowing works to go into the public
> domain) to make their art. If copyrights and other intellectual property
> rights were absolute, for example, Poppy would not have been able to write
> characters who were members of the Church Of The Subgenius without paying
> out to the owners of that bundle of property rights. Disney would not have
> been able to make films like Snow White, which was a story in the public
> domain.
I don't disagree that the copyright laws etc. benifit artists as well as
protect them.
>
> It's a poor artist who claims that intellectual property does or should work
> in the same way as real property.
Were I an artist, I might be offended by that. But since I'm not, I don't
think we're necessarily in disagreement.
-BP
Nillo
> in article %HwZ6.4888$d43....@newsfeed.slurp.net, Nillo at
ni...@agoron.com
> wrote on 6/24/01 6:50 PM:
> >
> >> Why is it people's perception/definition of stealing/borrowing/etc,.
> > >becomes so flexible when it comes to works of art/literature/etc. It's
> > >interesting.
> >
> > The main reason their perceptions are more flexible is because the
reality
> > is more flexible.The manifestation of ideas cannot be and aren't owned
in
> > the same way land is.
>
> Oh, I realize that. However, even as flexible as the realities are, most
> people who get caught "borrowing" an artist's work generally stretch those
> reasonings out until they're see-through.
Much of the time, yes, but I was just answering your question as to "why"
people believe that IP is more flexible than real property. The perceive
that it is because it actually is.
> > This is certainly even recognized in the law itself.
> > I have some fair use rights to others' works (as do you) in that I can
quote
> > them in order to critique them, or for educational purposes,
>
> Yes, but fair-use is a far cry from the topic which started this thread.
> Fair-use is a good and useful tool. However, taking an author's
characters
> and creating your own story with them without the author's permission is
> hardly covered by fair-use.
Depends. After all, _The Wind Done Gone_ uses the same characters as _Gone
With the Wind_ without the permission, and indeed, in spite of the active
litigation, of the author's estate and it managed to finally get to the
market. And this is a good thing.
I'm not making a pro-fanfic argument. I'm simply pointing out that
intellectual property isn't the same thing as stealing/borrowing a lawnmower
and that this is widely recognized. You borrowing my lawnmower relieves me
of my ability to use my lawnmower at all while it is in your possession.
You quoting, parodying, critiquing, or collaging my work can impinge on some
level of my exploitation of that work, but doesn't often do it completely.
That's why such analogies fall apart. My stuff has been swiped rather
frequently; type 'Nick Mamatas' on on google.com or deja.com and you'll see
a number of my articles stolen and put on other websites, mailing lists,
USENET groups etc. That does infringe my copyright. It doesn't take away
my ownership in the same way taking my lawnmower from my garage, even
temporarily does.
> Yes, but again, the topic which started this can hardly be classified as
> fair-use.
Sometimes it can -- _The Wind Done Gone_ and _Lo's Diary_ being two
examples. They fit the general definition of 'fanfic' and were considered
fair use because they are parodic and critical in nature. I bet Poppy's
South park thingie would also fly as fair use. Also, you moved the topic to
ask, more generally, why people think stealing IP is more flexible than
stealing real property. My answer: they think it is more flexible because
it actually *is* more flexible.
> >Many artists use parody,
>
> I can not speak for parody as a whole, only from what I know about it
> musically. One can parody popular music (for example Weird Al), but one
> must still acquire the synch and performance license from the original
> composer (as well as the master-use license if one uses the original
musical
> recordings in any way). If one parodies a song without the proper licences
> (which *can* be denied by the original composer) and attempts to profit
from
> it offer it up to the public in any way (for financial gain or not), they
> can be held liable. (Just ask Vanilla Ice).
No. In fact, this was explicitly struck down in CAMPBELL, aka SKYYWALKER, et
al. v. ACUFF-ROSE MUSIC, INC. (Docket 92-1292 -- Decided March 7, 1994)
Acuff-Rose Music, who owned the publishing rights of Roy Orbison's "Pretty
Woman" sued using your argument, and lost. The Supreme Court unanimously
held that music parody didn't need permission, even if they took the very
heart of the song that makes the song what it is -- marketable and
memorable. Here is, in part, what the court said: "Even if 2 Live Crew's
copying of the original's first line of lyrics and characteristic opening
bass riff may be said to go to the original's 'heart,' that heart is what
most readily conjures up the song for parody, and it is the heart at which
parody takes aim." The court goes on to point out that the 2 Live Crew
version then alters the rest of the song, but also found that 2 Live Crew
*needn't* have done so in order to claim fair use through parody.
This isn't to say that all or even much fanfic is parody/comment/criticism,
but a bunch of it could certainly be seen as such. Not the same thing as
stealing a lawnmower.
> > It's a poor artist who claims that intellectual property does or should
work
> > in the same way as real property.
>
> Were I an artist, I might be offended by that. But since I'm not, I don't
> think we're necessarily in disagreement.
People get offended by lots of reasonable statements.
Nick
--
Paul Bens
wrote on 6/24/01 9:32 PM:
> Paul Bens <thum...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:B75C0160.A66D%thum...@earthlink.net...
>> in article %HwZ6.4888$d43....@newsfeed.slurp.net, Nillo at
> ni...@agoron.com
>> wrote on 6/24/01 6:50 PM:
>>>>> Paul wrote:
>>>
>>>> Why is it people's perception/definition of stealing/borrowing/etc,.
>>>> becomes so flexible when it comes to works of art/literature/etc. It's
>>>> interesting.
>>>
>>> The main reason their perceptions are more flexible is because the
> reality
>>> is more flexible.The manifestation of ideas cannot be and aren't owned
> in
>>> the same way land is.
>>
>> Oh, I realize that. However, even as flexible as the realities are, most
>> people who get caught "borrowing" an artist's work generally stretch those
>> reasonings out until they're see-through.
>
> Much of the time, yes, but I was just answering your question as to "why"
> people believe that IP is more flexible than real property. The perceive
> that it is because it actually is.
So, context doesn't count?
>
>>> This is certainly even recognized in the law itself.
>>> I have some fair use rights to others' works (as do you) in that I can
> quote
>>> them in order to critique them, or for educational purposes,
>>
>> Yes, but fair-use is a far cry from the topic which started this thread.
>> Fair-use is a good and useful tool. However, taking an author's
> characters
>> and creating your own story with them without the author's permission is
>> hardly covered by fair-use.
>
> Depends. After all, _The Wind Done Gone_ uses the same characters as _Gone
> With the Wind_ without the permission, and indeed, in spite of the active
> litigation, of the author's estate and it managed to finally get to the
> market. And this is a good thing.
Though I am not studied on this, was this not a case of "true ownership"?
That is, was there not a disagreement between the heirs as to who had the
rights and therefore the right to license them? I'm not sure but I seemed
to recall hearing that. Could defin be wrong, though.
>
> I'm not making a pro-fanfic argument. I'm simply pointing out that
> intellectual property isn't the same thing as stealing/borrowing a lawnmower
> and that this is widely recognized.
Okay, I chose a bad analogy, granted.
> You borrowing my lawnmower relieves me
> of my ability to use my lawnmower at all while it is in your possession.
> You quoting, parodying, critiquing, or collaging my work
Again, is this not fair use and therefore not really the topic I was
discussing which is taking anothers character and doing with them as you
please without the author's permission? (Boy, there's a run-on sentence).
>can impinge on some
> level of my exploitation of that work, but doesn't often do it completely.
> That's why such analogies fall apart.
> My stuff has been swiped rather
> frequently; type 'Nick Mamatas' on on google.com or deja.com and you'll see
> a number of my articles stolen and put on other websites, mailing lists,
> USENET groups etc. That does infringe my copyright. It doesn't take away
> my ownership in the same way taking my lawnmower from my garage, even
> temporarily does.
And doesn't that piss you off?
>
>> Yes, but again, the topic which started this can hardly be classified as
>> fair-use.
>
> Sometimes it can -- _The Wind Done Gone_ and _Lo's Diary_ being two
> examples. They fit the general definition of 'fanfic' and were considered
> fair use because they are parodic and critical in nature. I bet Poppy's
> South park thingie would also fly as fair use. Also, you moved the topic to
> ask, more generally, why people think stealing IP is more flexible than
> stealing real property. My answer: they think it is more flexible because
> it actually *is* more flexible.
Then perhaps my question should have been more specific. "Why -- from a
moralistic standpoint -- do people find it more acceptable to blatently
steal from works of art?"
>
>>> Many artists use parody,
>>
>> I can not speak for parody as a whole, only from what I know about it
>> musically. One can parody popular music (for example Weird Al), but one
>> must still acquire the synch and performance license from the original
>> composer (as well as the master-use license if one uses the original
> musical
>> recordings in any way). If one parodies a song without the proper licences
>> (which *can* be denied by the original composer) and attempts to profit
> from
>> it offer it up to the public in any way (for financial gain or not), they
>> can be held liable. (Just ask Vanilla Ice).
>
> No. In fact, this was explicitly struck down in CAMPBELL, aka SKYYWALKER, et
> al. v. ACUFF-ROSE MUSIC, INC. (Docket 92-1292 -- Decided March 7, 1994)
> Acuff-Rose Music, who owned the publishing rights of Roy Orbison's "Pretty
> Woman" sued using your argument, and lost. The Supreme Court unanimously
> held that music parody didn't need permission, even if they took the very
> heart of the song that makes the song what it is -- marketable and
> memorable. Here is, in part, what the court said: "Even if 2 Live Crew's
> copying of the original's first line of lyrics and characteristic opening
> bass riff may be said to go to the original's 'heart,' that heart is what
> most readily conjures up the song for parody, and it is the heart at which
> parody takes aim." The court goes on to point out that the 2 Live Crew
> version then alters the rest of the song, but also found that 2 Live Crew
> *needn't* have done so in order to claim fair use through parody.
Well, obviously I am not a lawyer and do not have the reference to which you
speak. I can only go from my experience and point out that from what *I*
have observed (which is limited to my experience), film studios go to great
expense and care to make sure that the music they buy for their films does
not impinge on another artist's work and vigorously pursue all those who
impinge on the music held in their libraries. Of the approximately 4,000
court cases I examined at the studios, 99% of those suits wherein the studio
claimed copyright infringement of their music by 3rd parties were won by the
studios. As far as parody of that music goes, I can think of only 2 such
cases (one early 90s; one late 90s) and both were won by the studios.
Then again, just my experience. In no way trying to speak of the entire
legal world.
And again, we're talking specifically about parody in the above and I *did*
put a disclaimer saying my experience in that area was limited.
>
> This isn't to say that all or even much fanfic is parody/comment/criticism,
> but a bunch of it could certainly be seen as such. Not the same thing as
> stealing a lawnmower.
>
>>> It's a poor artist who claims that intellectual property does or should
> work
>>> in the same way as real property.
>>
>> Were I an artist, I might be offended by that. But since I'm not, I don't
>> think we're necessarily in disagreement.
>
> People get offended by lots of reasonable statements.
Oh, I wasn't offended by the statement. I was amused that it seemed
directed at me when I am not an artist.
-BP
UShotME
>Message-id: <e03e38de.01062...@posting.google.com>
>
Honey, it's illegal *because* it's stealing...
UShotME
>Date: 6/24/2001 6:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <%HwZ6.4888$d43....@newsfeed.slurp.net>
Sure........but you do realize we're talking about something that's not
covered by fair use, right? Or are you trying to say that it is?
UShotME
>Date: 6/24/2001 2:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3932a86c.01062...@posting.google.com>
Oh, if life could be summed up into a key word...
How is 'borrowing without permission' different from 'taking'? And how
exactly do you give 'intellectual property' back? Do you send the author your
little fanfic and allow them, if they wish, to slap their name on it and sell
it as their own?
UShotME
>Date: 6/24/2001 11:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <e03e38de.01062...@posting.google.com>
>
>O_o Ok, sorry. I never took more than 2 tablets a day, and I'm
>allergic to just about everything. I've never heard of anybody
>overdosing on antihistamines, is all. Again, sorry. You have a very
>valid reason.
>
You think I'm crazy? Well, maybe I am, but I still haven't overdosed on
antihistamines! I'm too paranoid about pills to ever overdose on anything...
UShotME
>From: i_smoke_...@hotmail.com (Jengou)
>Date: 6/24/2001 11:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <e03e38de.01062...@posting.google.com>
>
>> >> ideas and coming up with your own stories. Why read something that's
>> >> just going to resemble something you've already read and leave you with
>> >> a greasy aftertaste of the inferior? Free doesn't mean it's worth
>> >> reading or expending time and energy, just that it's not costing anyone
>> >money.
>> >
>> >Maybe because I'm a narrow-minded little thing, but I'm not very fond
>> >of reading about -new- characters. It takes too much energy to get to
>> >know someone new in a book,
>>
>> It's the shit like this that makes me want to go live in a cave...
>>
>>
>> JR
>
>Oh, I'm not talking about real people, if that's what you're thinking.
I wish you had been!
>There's a big difference between getting to know people and getting to
>know characters.
I just have to ask...why do you read if you don't enjoy doing it? How did
you ever pick up that first book? And was that first book Lost Souls? I don't
understand this...I don't see how someone who (I assume) likes to read
could...not...like...reading...
Jengou
> Jengou wrote:
>
> > > >Maybe because I'm a narrow-minded little thing, but I'm not very fond
> > > >of reading about -new- characters. It takes too much energy to get to
> > > >know someone new in a book,
>
> > > It's the shit like this that makes me want to go live in a cave...
>
> > I guess I shouldn't have said that I'm not fond of reading about new
> > characters, but that sometimes, it's nice to revisit old characters,
> > like revisiting old friends. Making new friends is fun, but sometimes
> > it's also necessary and immensely comfy to chatter with friends from
> > your childhood/school.
>
> So which is it? Do you not like reading new things or would you just
> rather read old things?
Both, definitely. In the recent 2 months I've been reading a lot of
crappy 'new books' (simply not the genre I like), so I'm currently
rereading old stuff to just boost back my enthusiasm for reading. And
sometimes, I like a character so much I'd like to reread them in
passages even if I'm in the middle of a good 'new' book. And
revisiting old characters n fanfics means that the plot is different,
so I can read with some suspense, which is a plus. (the downside is,
of course, the usually not-as-good writing style).
> And, might I point out...It's a fucking BOOK. How much energy can it
> possibly take to read new stories? I usually have at least two books
> going most of the time and it's not like I'm exhausted from reading or anything.
I'm not very fond of reading when the sun is shining and I can go
sailing :-) I read -very- slowly, especially when the writing is good.
I want to absorb everything, and often read sentences twice. Mostly
when the book is in English, 'cos it's my 3rd language. I need a
dictionary beside me sometimes.
> I mean, fine. If you'd rather constantly revisit the same stories and
> the same characters over and over again, okay. But don't bitch when your
> favorite author moves on, because that's not a whole lot of fun for most
> other people.
Well, I apologize for making it unpleasant for the rest of you, if
this is a tie-in with the other thread about PZB losing her spunk and
me obsessing over LS. But I really hope you'd read the thread in its
entirety; I don't want to revisit the same stories nor the same
characters. I don't like vampires and don't want to read more stories
about Nothing or Zillah. I think the conclusion was that I wasn't in
the right age group for DB and EC, 'tis all.
Jengou
Diana
>But do you think George Harrison really hacked "My Sweet Lord" from
>"He's so Fine" ? (sitting here hoping I got the right song title)
Yup, that's the tune. I don't believe for a second he did it deliberately. He
was found guilty of "subconscious plagiarism," if that's any help.
.
HiRene23 wrote:
>
> >*sigh* no sense even arguing with the bias on this newsgroup...
>
> Are you surprised that there is a bias towards Poppy's actual writing as
> opposed to fanfic written by amateurs based on her characters??
If it has to happen, at least let it be fun. Some of those people are
way too serious about what is essentially a botched plagiarism job.
.
raggedy annie wrote:
>
> bradley...@aol.comfuckoff (Brad Heck) wrote in message news:<20010619001309...@ng-xc1.aol.com>...
> > Cliff wrote:
> >
> > >Fanfiction makes me think of people who insist on dressing like and
> > >speaking Klingon.
> >
> > Not to mention *smelling* like Trekies, Renaissance Fairies or Civil War
> > "Re-enactors," all of which are World-Historically Bad Things....
>
> as a former trekkie I take offence! ...no, no I don't.. I
> whole-heartedly agree. there's nothing quite so nauseating than a room
> full of trekkies with their little plastic light-up phasers up their
> arses. *shudder*
May I add to this? There is nothing as easily recognizable as "Comic
Book Convention Aroma." I could understand if they had slept out in the
mud, a la Woodstock, but damn it, the stayed right in that hotel!
Running water! Indoor plumbing!
GhostAngel
That is the deciding factor that determines whether it is permissable
or not. Just cause I am pro-fanfic, doesn't mean that you must take
every single chance to knock me down for it. It is Poppy's decision,
and if she requested it, I would take the fiction down that I have
written on fanfiction.net. This whole arguement is biased because the
arguement here isn't even an equal arguement, those against fanfic
will not even listen to the arguements of those who are pro-fanfic,
regardless of what fandom we are talking about.
GhostAngel
.
Paul Bens wrote:
> Another aspect of it: That the "author" of an original work can even
> pontentially be sued by a fanfic writer (and the original author *can* be
> sued whether that author has "approved" fanfic either by consent or lack of
> admonition) is absurd!
I think any good lawyer could bury that stupid little shit in legalities
until their grandchildren had grandchildren. "You say you plagiarized
her work, and she stole your stolen ideas..."
.
KiernanCR wrote:
>
> PZB wrote:
>
> >I should have clarified that the story in question, "Night Story 1973," is a
> >COLLABORATION between me and Caitlin.<<
>
> Ditto "The Rest of the Wrong Thing" in WRONG THINGS.
>
> >>But as a cranky, hermitish author used to being God, it chafes me somehow.<<
>
> Imitation may (or may not) be the most sincere form of flattery. It can also be
> annoying as hell.
Heck, imagine if someone constantly showed up in the same dress you were wearing.
.
I think it might be up to the author to decide if her character was
taken or merely borrowed. It's fairly hard to "Steal" an intangible in a
way that you are thinking, but t's still theft. Borrowing someone's
idea is theft of intellectual property. Just ask Dave Letterman and NBC.
.
Laura wrote:
>
> But do you think George Harrison really hacked "My Sweet Lord" from
> "He's so Fine" ? (sitting here hoping I got the right song title)
I don't think intent is even an issue. (And let's add Huey Lewis v. Ray
Parker Jr. just for fun.)
.
Nillo wrote:
> I'm not making a pro-fanfic argument. I'm simply pointing out that
> intellectual property isn't the same thing as stealing/borrowing a lawnmower
> and that this is widely recognized. You borrowing my lawnmower relieves me
> of my ability to use my lawnmower at all while it is in your possession.
The argument could be made that because of the fan's use of a particular
character, the author was precluded from using them in a way she
intended. Also, if I come up with the idea for a new marketing campaign,
or I devise a new idea for manufacturing a lifesaving drug, are they not
also intangible, intellectual properties? Do you think for a minute any
good drug scientist wouldn't sue?
.
GhostAngel wrote:
>
> This whole arguement is biased because the
> arguement here isn't even an equal arguement, those against fanfic
> will not even listen to the arguements of those who are pro-fanfic,
> regardless of what fandom we are talking about.
Honey, all arguments and discussions are biased. I believe this, you
believe that, and we discuss it. Just because you're not winning
converts doesn't make it wrong. And are you listening to any of the
opposing opinions?
Jengou
> >> >> I look at it this way: If you're a good writer, you're writing your own
> >> >> ideas and coming up with your own stories. Why read something that's
> >> >> just going to resemble something you've already read and leave you with
> >> >> a greasy aftertaste of the inferior? Free doesn't mean it's worth
> >> >> reading or expending time and energy, just that it's not costing anyone
> >> >money.
> >> >
> >> >Maybe because I'm a narrow-minded little thing, but I'm not very fond
> >> >of reading about -new- characters. It takes too much energy to get to
> >> >know someone new in a book,
> >>
> >> It's the shit like this that makes me want to go live in a cave...
> >>
> >>
> >> JR
> >
> >Oh, I'm not talking about real people, if that's what you're thinking.
>
> I wish you had been!
You really hate me, huh? :,-(
> >There's a big difference between getting to know people and getting to
> >know characters.
>
> I just have to ask...why do you read if you don't enjoy doing it? How did
> you ever pick up that first book? And was that first book Lost Souls? I don't
> understand this...I don't see how someone who (I assume) likes to read
> could...not...like...reading...
I don't know what you mean, I do enjoy reading. But to fully enjoy a
book, I have to first fall in love with the characters and/or obsess
over them and/or relate to them and/or feel comfy with them and/or
sympathize with them. Everything else in writing comes second place,
or contribute to the characters' personality. For me to give other
books a completely fair read, I have to get rid of my obsessive
feelings for the characters first. That's only if I -really-care for
the characters, of course. It's really annoying, but not something I
can do much about. Reading fics flush away these feelings for me,
because they explore the sides of a character the original author only
dabbled in on, and I read fics until I'm satisfied. It may be this
annoying characteristic of mine that prevented me from fully enjoying
DB and EC...
When I was younger, I usually stuck to book series, such as Beverly
Cleary's "Ramona" books, Judy Blume's "Fudge" books, and even the
Baby-sitter's Club books, Sweet Valley books and Animorphs. I develop
these long-term relationship with the characters, such that reading
one-shot novels sometimes become very harrowing experiences. Which was
what I meant when I said that I don't enjoy reading about new
characters very much, especially in novels. I almost always want more
about a character I've grown to love, and if I don't get enough, I
hurt. I don't like hurt. But I feel like I'm starting to sound like
Justin in "Self-Made Man", so I'll shut up now.
Jengou