Question about FanFiction
N
I was wondering why almost none of the fanfiction on the net is based on
books. It all seems to be related to either Movies, T.V. shows or Comics.
Is there a reason behind this? I was thinking that perhaps (as far as
copyrights go) that books are not allowed to be used?
I was looking into The Pern Series by Anne MaCaffrey )apoligises for spelling
it wrong?) and I found a MUSH site which had a message from her on it
explaining _exactly_ how she wanted her novels protrayed on the MUSH (ie.
Can't use any of her characters, have to stay within the historical structure,
can't go into the future, can't go back to earth, etc.). Would these hold
true for all Pern related fanfic? I would assume so.
During the 4 months I've been reading the X-Men fanfiction, I've seen
_everything_ happen to those characters, there doesn't seem to be any problem
with doing anything we want with them (as long as we disclaim it ... but even
then I don't think it would really matter).
Does this not hold true with books, which, in some ways are more personal to
the author then a T.V. show or movie where it is more the work of many?
So .. the point of this is, are their different "rules" for writing fanfiction
about books? (I guess I could have said this at the beginning).
And also ... if I (or anyone else) was so inspired, where would be an
appriopriate place to post stuff like that?
Thanks
N.
sami...@novice.uwaterloo.ca
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aleph Press
N (SAMI...@SYSTEMS.uwaterloo.ca) wrote:
: I was wondering why almost none of the fanfiction on the net is based on
: Is there a reason behind this? I was thinking that perhaps (as far as
: copyrights go) that books are not allowed to be used?
*All* fan fiction is, strictly speaking, illegal. If there is a reason
books are not used, it's not due to the legalities of it.
: I was looking into The Pern Series by Anne MaCaffrey )apoligises for spelling
: it wrong?) and I found a MUSH site which had a message from her on it
: explaining _exactly_ how she wanted her novels protrayed on the MUSH (ie.
: Can't use any of her characters, have to stay within the historical structure,
: can't go into the future, can't go back to earth, etc.). Would these hold
: true for all Pern related fanfic? I would assume so.
Yes, unless it's underground. Likewise, all Babylon 5 fanfic is
underground, because the creator of the series has asked that no one
write it; fanfic based on Chelsea Quinn Yarbro's Count St. Germain series
is underground, because she has sent people cease and desist letters; etc.
: During the 4 months I've been reading the X-Men fanfiction, I've seen
: _everything_ happen to those characters, there doesn't seem to be any problem
: with doing anything we want with them (as long as we disclaim it ... but even
: then I don't think it would really matter).
Marvel *could* sue the pants off all of us, if they wanted to. However,
it woul create bad publicity, so instead they follow a "don't ask, don't
tell" policy. As long as we do not tell them we are writing fanfic, they
can pretend not to know.
: Does this not hold true with books, which, in some ways are more personal to
: the author then a T.V. show or movie where it is more the work of many?
: So .. the point of this is, are their different "rules" for writing fanfiction
: about books? (I guess I could have said this at the beginning).
: And also ... if I (or anyone else) was so inspired, where would be an
: appriopriate place to post stuff like that?
There are no *rules*; it's simply that, for some psychological reason,
most people do not feel inspired by books.
Maybe it's the purposes fanfic serves to get into the heads of characters
who, either because TV can't show you thoughts at all or comics can only
do so in a limited way, we don't see inside. Most fanfic is prose,
written about a non-prose medium. Maybe writing prose about books feels
redundant.
That being said, I *did* start to write a fanfic story based on a book,
and quit only because I had nowhere to put it...
As for where to post it? Real good question. I'd suggest that you don't
post it. Instead, get on rec.arts.books or rec.arts.sf.books and ask if
there are any fans of the book you are interested in. Then correspond
with them privately about reading your story. Individual authors are a
lot more anal about protecting their copyright than giant companies are.
--
"These are only my opinions. If they were the gospel truth, your bushes
would be burning." -- Nancy Lebowitz button
"Freedom of religion includes freedom from religion." -- My favorite
bumper sticker
-- Alara Rogers, Aleph Press
al...@netcom.com
All Aleph Press stories are available at ftp.netcom.com /pub/al/aleph.
The Man with the Golden Gun
Aleph Press wrote:
>
> N (SAMI...@SYSTEMS.uwaterloo.ca) wrote:
> : I was wondering why almost none of the fanfiction on the net is based on
> : books. It all seems to be related to either Movies, T.V. shows or Comics.
Well, that does seem to be the case. I suppose that since books are written
out in the same fashion as most fanfic, there's a redundancy issue.
>
> : Is there a reason behind this? I was thinking that perhaps (as far as
> : copyrights go) that books are not allowed to be used?
Well, that's true.
>
> *All* fan fiction is, strictly speaking, illegal. If there is a reason
> books are not used, it's not due to the legalities of it.
It's probably because most of the people who don't feel satisfied with the
progress of an idea are working with a non-book medium, as traditionally
books have lots of information that gets cut from other media. I have seen
some influences of books in fanfic, (I use some myself, actually) but rarely
is it entirely book-based. Maybe it's just the fact that net.folks don't
have as much time for books? <g>
-Scaramanga, who doesn't have time for much of anything.
--
The Man with the Golden Gun, Craig Lovelace, founder of MAVWWDBN
Bartender: Come to think of it, he did say something before he shot
himself. I think it was 'Heil.' Funny how they hold on to
that word.
Bond: Yes, isn't it . . .
-from Ian Fleming's Moonraker
5sm...@wworld.com
In article <591ht6$9hg...@eng.uwaterloo.ca>,
SAMI...@SYSTEMS.uwaterloo.ca (N) wrote:
>
> I was wondering why almost none of the fanfiction on the net is based on
> books. It all seems to be related to either Movies, T.V. shows or Comics.
Well, in this group, that's because it's specified for comics, but I'll
grant you that.
> Is there a reason behind this? I was thinking that perhaps (as far as
> copyrights go) that books are not allowed to be used?
No more than movies, TV, or comics, I would suspect. Sometimes I wonder
why 99% of the stories on acff are about the X-teams, and why none of it
is about, say, Superman. The only real reason is that none of the people
willing to write fanfic want to write about the Man of Tomorrow that much.
I would guess the same goes for full-fledged books, or you aren't looking
hard enough.
In the end, we both have the same course of action. I'm casually working
on some Superman fanfic right now, as a matter of fact.
> And also ... if I (or anyone else) was so inspired, where would be an
> appriopriate place to post stuff like that?
You'd be more likely to get away with it on an alt.* group, certainly,
but the title _does_ say alt.COMICS.fan-fiction. Not that one or two
fanfics based on novels would be a big pain, but rules is rules, after
all.
Jim Smith
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Phil Lee
Aleph Press (al...@netcom.com) wrote:
: N (SAMI...@SYSTEMS.uwaterloo.ca) wrote:
: : I was wondering why almost none of the fanfiction on the net is based on
: : books. It all seems to be related to either Movies, T.V. shows or Comics.
There is actually quite a lot of fan-fiction based on novels, but you
probably won't see much of it on the net. The two biggest examples that
come to mind are Anne McCaffrey's Pern novels and Mercades Lackey's
Heralds of Valdemar stuff.
As far as I know - and I'm no expert on any of this, so I may very well be
wrong - both McCaffrey and Lackey encourage fans to write stories based on
their "worlds", as long as author's characters aren't written about, nor
are they particulary connected in a story. No doubt this is primarily to
keep the fen from doing terrible things to an author's characters - which
I'm sure they quite happily do anyway. ^_^ Also, copyright issues get a
bit sticker when established characters are used, instead of just a
general setting.
McCaffrey fans tend to gather in Wyers, one of the primary functions of
which is to put out some sort of zine. Here, you'll find quite a bit of
fan-fic set in Pern based on original characters and original situations,
with main characters only being mentioned peripherally. Likewise, Lackey
supports "Queen's Own", an organization of larger scope which does
basically the same thing.
The last time I was at DragonCon, some of the Queen's Own people held a
panel that discussed writting fan-fic; Lackey had asked that anyone who
wanted to write stories using her world were welcome to, as long as they
filled out a form requesting permission and sent it in. While I'm sure
many fans ignore this, if you're going to publish your story (or create a
character for role-playing purposes within the zine), you'll need
permission.
Well, there are a couple of examples of fanfic based on novels - as for
why there isn't quite as much, I dunno. You may want to take a look at
_Textual Poachers_ by Henry Jenkins and see if fan-fic based on novels are
mentioned; off hand I don't belive so, but I don't have my copy handy. If
you're interested in fan-fic, and various issues surrounding fan based
works, this is an excellent book. It's academic, so there's a bit of
bullshit to wade through, but aside from that, it's a facinating, well
done examination of fan use of their favorite media.
Also, although it isn't fan-fic, there is a large body of filk songs about
books. "Filk" is loosely defined as fannish folk music, with songs about
SF, fantasy, fan culture, computers, and more. Within the realm of filk,
you'll find songs about a helluva lot of books. ^_^ Just an aside to
point out that while there may not be a wide variety of fan-fic based on
novels, there is still a lot of fan use of novel based material.
Phil
--
Phil Lee - ph...@email.unc.edu - http://sunsite.unc.edu/phil - FnordChan
"I do have a cause though. It's obscenity. I'm for it." - Tom Lehrer
The Great and Powerful Danny Sichel
(why don't people do fanfic about books instead of just comics and tv shows?)
I think it has something to do with the shared universe concept.
For example, official (i.e., published) Avengers stories have been written by
dozens of people, each of whom introduces new plot threads, ignores others, and
generally uses a different viewpoint.
In other words, there's no set concept of "The Avengers".
Conversely, the only Discworld books are ones which Terry Pratchett has written.
He's the master. No one else handles Discworld as well. It's _his_ creation.
Similarly, fanfic set in Astro City doesn't work, because Kurt Busiek is the
only one who knows how it works.
---------
"I think I've read enough comic books to know how to stop a nuclear meltdown,
thank you." - Johnny Applebottom, _Notes War_.
Kielle
Re: Question about FanFiction
On Sun, 15 Dec 1996, N (SAMI...@SYSTEMS.uwaterloo.ca) sed:
> I was wondering why almost none of the fanfiction on the net is
> based on books. It all seems to be related to either Movies, T.V.
> shows or Comics.
<creaking open a rusty chest in the back of her brain and dusting
off the mildewy old Pern terminology...whew, this stuff lasts
longer than Twinkies!>
Dear N,
I think a lot of fanfic writers do go through a stage of writing
stuff based on a favorite book series --I went through an extensive
McCaffery stage myself when I was a kid, and I know folks who are
STILL on a Mercedes Lackey kick -- but in the end books do tend to
have narrower audiences than mass media offerings such as comics or
TV shows. And with something that's the result of many minds
working together over the long-term (as opposed to books, which are
generally the product of a single focused mind in a single massive
burst of effort) it's easier to "fit into the universe" so to speak
without stepping on toes or being completely negated in the sequel.
("All The Weyrs Of Pern," anyone? <shudder>)
> (ie. Can't use any of her characters, have to stay within the
> historical structure, can't go into the future, can't go back to
> earth, etc.). Would these hold true for all Pern related fanfic?
<shrug> I'd say write whatever the heck you like -- it's your
computer. What, does she think you're going to take money away
from her? :) However, you must grudgingly admit that some of her
strictures make sense; I'll bet every Pern fangirl from here to
Ballybran has sent a fighting wing to Earth...and or gone to Pern
herself via a freak time/space warp, and impressed a dragon herself
to boot. PLUS a fair of firelizards. PLUS uber-psionic powers
that would make Lessa swoon with envy. Oy. I'd be annoyed, too.
;) I even saw a Pern/StarTrek crossover once. It was NOT a pretty
sight.
(There IS a cure, though. An old high school buddy and I recently
dug out OUR old fangirl Pern characters, brought them up to date in
our ongoing multi-dimensional roleplaying campaign, and, with the
exception of a favorite firelizard or two, dispatched them all with
great gory relish. Remember, this is also a nice cathartic way to
rid thyself of embarrassing Star Trek Mary-Sues, those Palladium
animal-morphs that breed like bunnies in the bottom of your
"creative" notebook, and really just about ANY White Wolf
characters you may have onhand. <grinning evilly>)
In regards to being sued: Oh yeah, sure. Call me naive, but
honestly, I'd just LIKE to see a company try to sue a 16-year-old
high school student or a nice married grandmother for penning a few
little amateur stories which make no money and are simply for the
entertainment of a mere handful of other likeminded fans. And who
in many cases could easily disappear into anonymity under new
pseudonyms at any time they chose, anyhow. Phooey! To quote a very
wise sage, "I don't think so, Tim."
Where to post it: Ya got me. On your page, I guess -- Martha
McMahon does it, and if I wrote anything worthwhile on the subject
I'd do it too. If you need help creating a page, just ask. Or
surf the net in search of likeminded souls, get your work archived
with them, and start a "book-fanfic" coalition or something. It
could be quite a fun project, actually...
PS: Did you check Karen's GREAT fanfic links at
http://members.aol.com/ksnicholas/fanfic/index.html? I swear, if
it isn't there, it probably doesn't exist. :)
<subliminalmessage:listentosavatage >
.-=K=-.
PS: Okay, I give up. What IS the big whoop-dee with this Jordan
guy? No, I don't really want an answer. ;)
*** "Hey, remember that time when Monet and Merideth skipped out to
town with Queenie's card?" Jubilee giggled. "I swear, I thought
Mr. C was gonna pop a blood vessel or somethin'!"
"Shh," Image shushed her. "She doesn't know about that yet!"
::I do now.::
"Crap!"
-- "Have Yourself A Merry Xmas" ***
Hawk
In article <19961218064...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Kielle <kie...@aol.com> wrote:
>In regards to being sued: Oh yeah, sure. Call me naive, but
>honestly, I'd just LIKE to see a company try to sue a 16-year-old
>high school student or a nice married grandmother for penning a few
>little amateur stories which make no money and are simply for the
>entertainment of a mere handful of other likeminded fans. And who
>in many cases could easily disappear into anonymity under new
>pseudonyms at any time they chose, anyhow. Phooey! To quote a very
>wise sage, "I don't think so, Tim."
They can and do sue. If they do not actively protect their copyright from
fan-fiction, pictures, etc., they can lose the right to complain. If
Marvel, DC, whomever knows about these stories and does not do anything
about them for a certain amount of time, they lose the right to "complain"
to the courts about copright infringement. (At least, that's my
understanding as explained by a non-copright specializing lawyer).
><subliminalmessage:listentosavatage >
>PS: Okay, I give up. What IS the big whoop-dee with this Jordan
>guy? No, I don't really want an answer. ;)
Who you been hearing it from? Me, Dawn, Abyss, Hohn Cho, or Alan Sauer?
(I know that there are more RJ fans on this group and racmx, but I can't
recall their names). If you want to find out what the "whoop-dee" with RJ
is, read his first book. Though be warned - he deliberately starts with a
Tolkein like flavor. Once you get through the first third, it really
picks up. If you don't like the first book, don't bother with the rest.
Or, you could always come over and check out
rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan. We're a sizzling cauldren of... of...
hmmm.. off-topic posts at the moment. There's a few on-topic threads
going on, but they tend to be the "You idiot, there's textual evidence
conflicting what you're saying" type threads.
And if you didn't want an answer, you shouldn't have asked the question.
Hawk
* Men... can't live with 'em, but you can give them to the Reds! *
dats...@aol.com
In article <59a81h$g...@herald.concentric.net>, M...@cris.com wrote:
>
>In article <19961218064...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
>Kielle <kie...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>In regards to being sued: Oh yeah, sure. Call me naive, but
>>honestly, I'd just LIKE to see a company try to sue a 16-year-old
>>high school student or a nice married grandmother for penning a few
>>little amateur stories which make no money and are simply for the
>>entertainment of a mere handful of other likeminded fans. And who
>>in many cases could easily disappear into anonymity under new
>>pseudonyms at any time they chose, anyhow. Phooey! To quote a very
>>wise sage, "I don't think so, Tim."
>
>They can and do sue. If they do not actively protect their copyright
>from fan-fiction, pictures, etc., they can lose the right to complain.
If
>Marvel, DC, whomever knows about these stories and does not do >anything
about them for a certain amount of time, they lose the right to
>"complain" to the courts about copright infringement. (At least, that's
>my understanding as explained by a non-copright specializing lawyer).
So, what, they just don't sue anyone we've ever heard of, or they've lost
the right to complain already? I'm confused.
>><subliminalmessage:listentosavatage >
>
>>PS: Okay, I give up. What IS the big whoop-dee with this Jordan
>>guy? No, I don't really want an answer. ;)
>Who you been hearing it from? Me, Dawn, Abyss, Hohn Cho, or Alan >Sauer?
Wasn't me, honest!
>(I know that there are more RJ fans on this group and racmx, but I can't
>recall their names). If you want to find out what the "whoop-dee" with
>RJ is, read his first book. Though be warned - he deliberately starts
>with a Tolkein like flavor.
Who's this "Tolkein" guy? :)
>Once you get through the first third, it really
>picks up. If you don't like the first book, don't bother with the rest.
And (IMHO) it starts slowing down a lot around the seventh book.
And I mean a _lot._ So much so that I'm almost beginning to lose
interest, and I have stopped reading the newsgroup.
>Or, you could always come over and check out
>rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan. We're a sizzling cauldren of... of...
>hmmm.. off-topic posts at the moment. There's a few on-topic threads
>going on, but they tend to be the "You idiot, there's textual evidence
>conflicting what you're saying" type threads.
Awk, glad I left.
>And if you didn't want an answer, you shouldn't have asked the question.
Yeah. Pthththh.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan Sauer als...@tiny.computing.csbsju.edu
"To follow knowledge, like a sinking star,/Beyond the utmost bound
of human thought." -- from "Ulysses," by Alfred, Lord Tennyson
Hawk
In article <19961220194...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
>>They can and do sue. If they do not actively protect their copyright
>>from fan-fiction, pictures, etc., they can lose the right to complain.
>If
>>Marvel, DC, whomever knows about these stories and does not do >anything
>about them for a certain amount of time, they lose the right to
>>"complain" to the courts about copright infringement. (At least, that's
>>my understanding as explained by a non-copright specializing lawyer).
>So, what, they just don't sue anyone we've ever heard of, or they've lost
>the right to complain already? I'm confused.
I dunno which it is. I suspect that they haven't bothered suing anyone.
Normally, so long as the person is not earning money from the fan-fic,
authors and comapnies realize that fan-fic is a free form of advertising
that they shouldn't get rid of.
And I really don't know how long a company can ignore fan-fic before they
lose the right to sue. If Hohn's not still on vacation, and reading the
group, maybe he can tell us.
[re: Robert Jordan]
>>Who you been hearing it from? Me, Dawn, Abyss, Hohn Cho, or Alan >Sauer?
>Wasn't me, honest!
Nobody believes rabbits.
>Who's this "Tolkein" guy? :)
I dunno. Someone who's books I couldn't finish.
>>Once you get through the first third, it really
>>picks up. If you don't like the first book, don't bother with the rest.
>And (IMHO) it starts slowing down a lot around the seventh book.
>And I mean a _lot._ So much so that I'm almost beginning to lose
>interest, and I have stopped reading the newsgroup.
I didn't mind the slowing down. I enjoyed the time that he lingered on
the different characters. But if we're going to get into RJ, we should do
it by email. Maybe when you answer my mail that's been sitting in your
inbox for a few months?
>Awk, glad I left.
But now you don't get to see Chad flirting with Kate and Lara. It's so
cute...
Hawk
"You're very garlicly. It's kind of sweet. It's like kissing a good
pizza."
http://www.blarg.net/~hawk/fanfic.html - acff FAQ and Where Can I Find
Comic Fan-Fiction on the WWW? FAQ
dats...@aol.com
In article <59fc34$a...@herald.concentric.net>, M...@cris.com wrote:
>In article <19961220194...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> <dats...@aol.com> wrote:
>>In article <59a81h$g...@herald.concentric.net>, M...@cris.com wrote:
(Marvel losing the right to complain if they don't sue)
>>So, what, they just don't sue anyone we've ever heard of, or they've
lost
>>the right to complain already? I'm confused.
>I dunno which it is. I suspect that they haven't bothered suing anyone.
That was my theory too.
>Normally, so long as the person is not earning money from the fan-fic,
>authors and comapnies realize that fan-fic is a free form of advertising
>that they shouldn't get rid of.
And I'm all in favor of that situation continuing, mostly because I've got
about
six-thirty to my name.
>And I really don't know how long a company can ignore fan-fic before they
>lose the right to sue. If Hohn's not still on vacation, and reading the
>group, maybe he can tell us.
Well, I don't need to know _that_ much. I was only mildly curious.
>[re: Robert Jordan]
>>>Who you been hearing it from? Me, Dawn, Abyss, Hohn Cho, or Alan
>Sauer?
>>Wasn't me, honest!
>Nobody believes rabbits.
My continual point is that they _should._
(Wheel of Time)
>I didn't mind the slowing down. I enjoyed the time that he lingered on
>the different characters. But if we're going to get into RJ, we should
do
>it by email. Maybe when you answer my mail that's been sitting in your
>inbox for a few months?
Wrong inbox. And I thought I'd answered that, hmm. No wonder I haven't
heard
from you in a while. I'll look when I get back.
>>Awk, glad I left.
>But now you don't get to see Chad flirting with Kate and Lara. It's so
>cute...
I think I've seen that before, or something much like it.
Gil Trevizo
Cryptor13 <cryp...@aol.com> wrote:
> As far as I know,they haven't sued anyone-yet. And if they're smart, they
> won't.
It didn't stop them from doing what they did to me. Remember that they
don't have to sue to effectively shut this kind of stuff down -- they just
need the threat of a lawsuit. When it comes to FOX and Chris Carter, they
just threatened lawsuit and that has proved sufficient to stifle
unofficial websites for Millennium, though that situation is changing.
M...@cris.com (Hawk) wrote:
> a judge will laugh it out of court. A copyright violation is a copyright
> violation - regardless of the age of the defendent. Marvel, if it so
> chooses, has to prosecute all copyright violations. They can't pick and
> choose. And by the time that someone is old enough to be able to write
> fan-fic, they're old enough to understand the concept of stealing
> characters from a company.
From all I've heard, fanfic is really a trademark violation than a
copyright violation. But it would be simpler if it were a copyright
violation, which doesn't need to be defended vigilantly like trademarks.
In any case, the law here is very vague and certainly malleable. While a
court case is not impossible, I don't think any company would allow things
to escalate to that point -- even a corporation as pig-headed as Fox has
effectively backed-down and agreed to all those things we originally
wanted (though that might be all talk, we'll see). They rely on the power
of the threat -- force them into a position where they *must* sue and my
money is on them giving up. They can force ISPs to shut down websites and
mailing lists, but forcing a lasting rmgroup of a creative newsgroup would
require a lot of weight (and create the equal amount of media attention
painting them as heavy-handed thugs that comes with that).
But, like I've told the folks in fanfic for The X-Files, if they want a
fight in court, I'd be happy to take them on. Maybe the law is stacked
against fanfic, but where it is that needs to be changed. The
constitutional basis for this law is not irrelevant towards fanfic (IMHO
it supports fanfic rather is against it), and if there were such a
crackdown on "fan fiction" at other points in history, our literary
culture would be deprived of such texts as the works of Homer, Chretien de
Troyes, and Shakespeare, to name a few. That's a battle I'd be willing to
fight all the way into a courtroom if needs be, which was simply not the
case with the website debacle with Fox and Chris Carter.
Gil Trevizo + tre...@utep.edu
The X-Files-Fanfic Mailing List + http://mail.utep.edu/~trevizo/x-files
EZ Streets + http://members.aol.com/SaveEZSts
PROTECT X-FILES & MILLENNIUM WEB SITES
http://mail.utep.edu/~trevizo/millennium
Cryptor13
As far as I know,they haven't sued anyone-yet. And if they're smart, they
won't.
of court. Like someone said, are they really going to sue a grandmother or
16 year old. Then again, I'm 18 and prosecutable.
But my point is they don't sue, they do underhanded crap like Carter(never
elevate someone to a perch like him, they'll only show they're as petty as
him) and Fox have. So far as I know, they can't shut down a newsgroup like
this. If they did, they'd be taken to court. Marvel is smart enough not
to; they know they'd alienate the fans even more than they have. And some
creators, though they probably wish we didn't, are smart enough not to do
any crap like that. J.M.S(B5) and Best Brains(MST3K) have the right
attitude: they don't read the stories.
Hawk
In article <19961226000...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Cryptor13 <cryp...@aol.com> wrote:
>As far as I know,they haven't sued anyone-yet. And if they're smart, they
>won't.
>We may be violating copyright, but a judge would laugh any such case out
>of court. Like someone said, are they really going to sue a grandmother or
>16 year old. Then again, I'm 18 and prosecutable.
First off, AOL has an internet netiquette FAQ. You need to read it. If
you already had, you would realize that you need to quote text so that
people know what you're referring to. I do happen to remember that you're
referring to Alan's comment, but I doubt most people do. This isn't an
AOL chatroom, where things will come up right away, and AOL will leave all
the articles in order. There are such things as propogation delays (I
could see your article long before I saw his) and experation dates. I
doubt that Alan's message is still on most people's servers, and it's not
their responsibility to go and figure out what you're talking about. Make
sure to quote and attribute!
(Sorry to go off on this, but I've been seeing too many people on the 'net
lately who haven't been bothering to quote.)
Second, in reference to your comment, don't delude yourself and think that
a judge will laugh it out of court. A copyright violation is a copyright
violation - regardless of the age of the defendent. Marvel, if it so
chooses, has to prosecute all copyright violations. They can't pick and
choose. And by the time that someone is old enough to be able to write
fan-fic, they're old enough to understand the concept of stealing
characters from a company.
Hawk
Joel Ellis Rea
Gil Trevizo wrote:
>
> Cryptor13 <cryp...@aol.com> wrote:
> > As far as I know,they haven't sued anyone-yet. And if they're smart, they
> > won't.
>
> don't have to sue to effectively shut this kind of stuff down -- they just
> need the threat of a lawsuit. When it comes to FOX and Chris Carter, they
> just threatened lawsuit and that has proved sufficient to stifle
> unofficial websites for Millennium, though that situation is changing.
>
> M...@cris.com (Hawk) wrote:
>
> > violation - regardless of the age of the defendent. Marvel, if it so
> > chooses, has to prosecute all copyright violations. They can't pick and
> > choose. And by the time that someone is old enough to be able to write
> > fan-fic, they're old enough to understand the concept of stealing
> > characters from a company.
>
> copyright violation. But it would be simpler if it were a copyright
> violation, which doesn't need to be defended vigilantly like trademarks.
> In any case, the law here is very vague and certainly malleable. While a
> court case is not impossible, I don't think any company would allow things
> to escalate to that point -- even a corporation as pig-headed as Fox has
> effectively backed-down and agreed to all those things we originally
> wanted (though that might be all talk, we'll see). They rely on the power
> of the threat -- force them into a position where they *must* sue and my
> money is on them giving up. They can force ISPs to shut down websites and
> mailing lists, but forcing a lasting rmgroup of a creative newsgroup would
> require a lot of weight (and create the equal amount of media attention
> painting them as heavy-handed thugs that comes with that).
>
> But, like I've told the folks in fanfic for The X-Files, if they want a
> fight in court, I'd be happy to take them on. Maybe the law is stacked
> against fanfic, but where it is that needs to be changed. The
> constitutional basis for this law is not irrelevant towards fanfic (IMHO
> it supports fanfic rather is against it), and if there were such a
> crackdown on "fan fiction" at other points in history, our literary
> culture would be deprived of such texts as the works of Homer, Chretien de
> Troyes, and Shakespeare, to name a few. That's a battle I'd be willing to
> fight all the way into a courtroom if needs be, which was simply not the
> case with the website debacle with Fox and Chris Carter.
>
Basically, what the law says is that those who own trademarks can
decide what is done with them. Marvel and DC some time ago gave blanket
permission for fans to create fan fiction -or- fan art, and even publish
them in non-profit venues, so long as their trademarks and copyrights
were acknowledged in the works themselves. This was mainly to allow for
fanzines, but it has been extended to online services and I presume to
the Internet as well. Note the "-or-" above: fans are NOT permitted to
combine the two and create actual comics-form strips or sequences of
panels forming a story, because they would then be competing directly
with the owners of the trademarks/copyrights, for whom the creation and
publishing of such comics-form stories is their primary business. You
can write PROSE fanfic, fan filks, OR draw fan sketches of characters in
poses, but you cannot draw a strip or sequence of panels involving Marvel
or DC characters involved in the actions and dialogue of a plot or story.
I don't know what other comics companies have followed Marvel's and
DC's lead in this. I know Milestone never made it clear whether fanfic
was allowed or not, because I never did get an answer from them after
repeated inquiries online. For this reason I never did post a couple of
Milestone fanfics I wanted to do (the mere lack of them saying "No, you
can't do that" does -not- constitute a "Yes, you have our permission so
go right ahead" -- if you want to stay legal, or have any respect for
their rights, you will assume "No" unless and until you get a "Yes").
Sticking with Marvel and DC characters and universes, etc. is thus safe
so long as you scrupulously acknowledge the copyrights and trademarks,
but I can't vouch for anyone else's. Perhaps the Keeper of the FAQ
should contact these companies and obtain some form of written permission
similar to the restrictions Marvel and DC impose (which I find quite
reasonable), and post such permissions in the FAQ itself so we'd know
where we stand with them.
Gil's comparison with Homer, Chretien de Troyes, Shakespeare, etc.,
while true, doesn't change the point. Those stories, the characters,
etc. were considered public domain even in the days of those writers.
And they still are: any of us can write a story featuring a "Hercules" or
a "Titania" or a "MacBeth" so long as it they are not recognizably the
same as or based on some trademarked or copyrighted variation such as
Marvel's Hercules, the Action Pack Hercules (as in the guy that's played
by Kevin Zorbo), or the Titania and MacBeth that have appeared on the
(wonderful) cartoon series "Gargoyles." We can even publish such stories
for profit, have movies or TV series made from them, and trademark our
specific variations ourselves so that others cannot use them without our
permission. Look at all the varieties of Thor that exist in the comics
alone: who would confuse Marvel's Thor with the one that appears in the
Elementals, or with the one in "Thôrr-Sverd: The Sword of Thor"? (For
those with HTML-capable E-mail but who aren't reading this with an ISO
Latin 1 Western-encoding character set active, the above should read:
"Thôumflex;rr-Sverd:...") That's a far cry from using Agents Mulder
and Scully as you see fit.
What it boils down to is, "B-but I wuh-wuh-wuh-WAUNT it!!" isn't a
valid legal justification for copyright or trademark infringement.
Kamesennin
How can all fan ficion be illegal, when *usually* the person writing it
isn't making
any money off of it? They're just doing it cuz they're fans (hence the
name)
Kamesennin
OK, how the hell could some big company like Marvel or Fox or whatever
actually
get away with suing a 16 year old just for writing a story using their
characters?
You guys don't seem to undertstand that copyright infringement is only
infringement if the copier is making a profit, which the vast majority of
fanfic writers
aren't doing...
Ruby Lis
This isn't true. Fox successfully sued a kid for using Bart Simpson in an
advertisement for Vacation Bible School. Obviously the kid didn't make
any money on it, but he was using the character to promote his own
interests--so to speak. Because of the public outcry against a big
company taking a kid to court, Fox backed off and let it drop as long as
Bart was no longer used in the ad.
Aleph Press
Kamesennin (kames...@aol.com) wrote:
: OK, how the hell could some big company like Marvel or Fox or whatever
: actually
: get away with suing a 16 year old just for writing a story using their
: characters?
: You guys don't seem to undertstand that copyright infringement is only
: infringement if the copier is making a profit, which the vast majority of
: fanfic writers
: aren't doing...
Mm, no. If Maarvel or Fox or whoeve could prove that they had suffered
financial losses due to fanfic (for instance, people are reading fanfic
instead of buying the original product), they could still sue.
And the point is moot, anyway, because we aere very little and they have
big expensive lawyers. If they *threatened* to sue, most people could not
afford to take them to court.
Chi
Kamesennin <kames...@aol.com> 次寫入到主題
<19961231194...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
Face (Dan)
Aleph Press wrote:
>
> Mm, no. If Maarvel or Fox or whoeve could prove that they had
> suffered financial losses due to fanfic (for instance, people are
> reading fanfic instead of buying the original product), they could
> still sue.
>
> could not afford to take them to court.
>
> al...@netcom.com
>
> All Aleph Press stories are available at ftp.netcom.com /pub/al/
> aleph.
I wouldn't worry. It costs the companies big money to sue you, so they
probably won't unless either: A. You are making money off your fanfic.
or B. They are losing money because of your fanfic. If you watch
yourself, neither of these scenarios will happen.
Just my two bits...
--
Face (Dan)
The Dark Avenger of Netiquette
President, Watcher Comics <ftp://ftp.eyrie.org/pub/racc/watcher/>
Hawk
In article <19961231194...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Kamesennin <kames...@aol.com> wrote:
>OK, how the hell could some big company like Marvel or Fox or whatever
>actually
>get away with suing a 16 year old just for writing a story using their
>characters?
>You guys don't seem to undertstand that copyright infringement is only
>infringement if the copier is making a profit, which the vast majority of
>fanfic writers
>aren't doing...
Your line lengths need to be 75 characters or less, otherwise your
messages show up like the above. Please format properly - if you're not
sure how to do it, ask an AOL techie.
Now onto your point... it does not matter if someone makes a profit from
using someones copyright. The point of the copyright is that other people
can not use your specific ideas/situation/characters without your
permission. If you're not earning money (or harming sales), many
companies will leave fanzines alone. They like the free advertising.
However, you are still violating their copyright, and they have the right
to order you to cease-and-desist.
Hawk
"You're not a salad. You're a meat dish."
Hawk
In article <32C984...@iamerica.net>,
Joel Ellis Rea <jr...@iamerica.net> wrote:
[Gil's entire article deleted]
There was no need to quote everything he said. Netiquette states that you
only quote as much of the previous post as is needed to make your post
understandable.
> Basically, what the law says is that those who own trademarks can
>decide what is done with them. Marvel and DC some time ago gave blanket
>permission for fans to create fan fiction -or- fan art, and even publish
>them in non-profit venues, so long as their trademarks and copyrights
>were acknowledged in the works themselves. This was mainly to allow for
>fanzines, but it has been extended to online services and I presume to
>the Internet as well. Note the "-or-" above: fans are NOT permitted to
>combine the two and create actual comics-form strips or sequences of
>panels forming a story, because they would then be competing directly
>with the owners of the trademarks/copyrights, for whom the creation and
>publishing of such comics-form stories is their primary business. You
>can write PROSE fanfic, fan filks, OR draw fan sketches of characters in
>poses, but you cannot draw a strip or sequence of panels involving Marvel
>or DC characters involved in the actions and dialogue of a plot or story.
I do believe you when you say this; however, I'd like to look at this
permission for myself (call it the researcher in me - I like to look at
the original sources whenever possible *grin*). Could you point me to
where you found that information, please?
> I don't know what other comics companies have followed Marvel's and
>DC's lead in this. I know Milestone never made it clear whether fanfic
>was allowed or not, because I never did get an answer from them after
>repeated inquiries online. For this reason I never did post a couple of
>Milestone fanfics I wanted to do (the mere lack of them saying "No, you
>can't do that" does -not- constitute a "Yes, you have our permission so
>go right ahead" -- if you want to stay legal, or have any respect for
>their rights, you will assume "No" unless and until you get a "Yes").
>Sticking with Marvel and DC characters and universes, etc. is thus safe
>so long as you scrupulously acknowledge the copyrights and trademarks,
>but I can't vouch for anyone else's. Perhaps the Keeper of the FAQ
>should contact these companies and obtain some form of written permission
>similar to the restrictions Marvel and DC impose (which I find quite
>reasonable), and post such permissions in the FAQ itself so we'd know
>where we stand with them.
I wouldn't want to have to contact every single comic company that is out
there, just to get their feelings on fanfic. There are only two companies
out there that have been agressive against fanfic (AFAIK), and that is Fox
and Warner Brothers. I might put something in the FAQ warning people of
the possible repercussions of using their characters in a fanfic; however,
I really wouldn't be too concerned about the other companies unless it
looks like this might become an industry-wide problem. Honestly, I can't
see any reasonable company taking action against what is on this group,
unless they label themselves PG-13 and get sick of seeing their characters
stuck in erotic stories. And considering what some of these
companies put out, I can't see that ever happening. *grin*
I do think that the companies rights have to be respected, and that if
they request that people stop writing/posting these stories, they are well
within their rights. However, I suspect there's a bit of "Don't ask,
don't tell" policy going on with the companies and that if we point out
our existence, they'll feel obligated to ask us to "shut down" (as if you
can permanently get rid of any newsgroup). So long as we don't try to get
money from their characters, or claim them as our own, I would not fret
about any of this.
> What it boils down to is, "B-but I wuh-wuh-wuh-WAUNT it!!" isn't a
>valid legal justification for copyright or trademark infringement.
Seconded.
fanc...@aol.com
In article <32CA4C...@mcleod.net>, "Face wrote:
>I wouldn't worry. It costs the companies big money to sue you, so they
>probably won't unless either: A. You are making money off your fanfic.
>or B. They are losing money because of your fanfic. If you watch
>yourself, neither of these scenarios will happen.
>Just my two bits...
I was going to shrink back into the shadows quietly but had to drop my two
cents on this issue :-) Not that I'm worried any of us will be sued; it's
just that people's understanding of the law is so horrific that I wanted
to add something :-)
It won't cost them big money to sue you...big companies keep lawyers on
retainer...they have lawyers at their beck and call 24 hours a day. It
actually, in a way, costs them more not to sue, because they are paying
the lawyers to just sit around :-) But that's beside the point.
Most lawsuits aren't about the money...it's a cease and desist tactic...
most lawsuits will involve gag orders and restraining orders, the monetary
damages are only secondary. Their real aim is not to get back all the
money you cost them, it's to protect their investment, the item they have
copyrighted. And their investments deserve equal protection from 16 year
old kids, millionaires and gray haired grannies. Who you are isn't going
to save you. They can sue you for copyright infringement even if you don't
make any money or directly affect their profits. If your activities are
seen as adversely affecting the item, the items image (giving a negative
image to an item and making it undesirable to the public or unmarketable)
or marketability, yeah they are going to slap you with a gag order in a
hurry. What we do here is a big threat to profits...why buy Marvel when
you can get as good or better stories here for free? And if all that was
put up here was erotic fan-fiction, or something similar, then yeah, we'd
be hurting the image of X universe and people might get the wrong idea
about what X-men are all about (if they hadn't had expose before reading
something on the net). And then as was discussed before (by many people)
we are using ideas...and if they pick up something similar they can not
prove that they didn't get it from one of us, and then they'd owe that
person money. Banning fan-fict saves them from that snare. Of course the
fact that we're stealing also does. So don't even think of suing Marvel is
you see one of your plots written up in Uncanny X-men some day, cause they
will counter sue and win! ;-)
Read a copyright next time you pick up something. It doesn't say that the
characters can't be reproduced "for profit" without permission...it says
they can't be reproduced period (without permission).
Anyway that's my 2...uh 3...uh 5 cents worth. :-)
Terri
"The majestic equality of the law is such that the rich as well as poor
are punished for stealing bread, begging in the streets and sleeping under
bridges"
-unknown source-