Voicing again
Yogi Panda
hours of playing on end, I confirmed my preference for the sound with
the lid on the short stick, (or even with the lid down with only the
front flap open!), rather than the lid on the long stick. Not only
because of the 'too loud' issue, but because of the tone quality itself.
I believe the acoustics of my living room is quite usual for
North-America, with wall-to-wall carpeting, overstuffed furniture,
rather heavy drapes for a rather large window, but there are open spaces
to dining room and hallway as well, etc.
I have again been thinking of voicing the instrument down a little. How
much effort will it take to make the tonal difference between long and
short stick? How many hours of needling the hammers? Any other voicing
technique that can be applied?
My piano tech did a little voicing six months ago, he suggested an
octave or so in the high treble area and I then thought he could do the
bass/treble break as well. He was not really convinced that the latter
is needed, but he did it anyway. As far as I can tell, needling was all
he did, and the purpose was only to even out the tonal characteristics
across the keyboard.
What I am talking about now is changing the tonal characteristics across
the keyboard a little, which is more consequential and should be done
with more caution, I am already happy with the tone. Of course, I could
simply leave the lid on the short stick, (and that's the least expensive
way of doing it too), I just want to explore the issue from time to
time.
(This is where my Clavinova excels, I can have a harpsichord voice at
the push of a button! :-))
Yogi
jaso...@my-deja.com
Voicing will change that tone quality. While you might get the result
you want, it is very possible you will be less satisfied.
If you do indeed decide to proceed, have it done in small increments.
While more expensive (more visits), I think you'll have a better shot
at getting what you want.
Steve Cohen
Jasons Music Centers
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Radu Focshaner
> I believe the acoustics of my living room is quite usual for
> North-America, with wall-to-wall carpeting, overstuffed furniture,
> rather heavy drapes for a rather large window, but there are open spaces
> to dining room and hallway as well, etc.
I knew that Le Corbusier designed some projects in Brasilia , but did
not know that F.L.Wright was involved in Borneo urban architecture. Good
for you, Yogi !
============
Why aren't you celebrating Christmas like all the normal people instead
of posting to rmmp ?
Radu
Rick Clark
>
>Why aren't you celebrating Christmas like all the normal people instead
>of posting to rmmp ?
I'll be celebrating as soon as I can find a Jerk restaurant with beer
and rum drinks open!
Rick Clark,
Keystone floors, bamboo furniture, open windows, metal blinds,
paintings. Not a drape, carpet, or overstuffed anything except me gut.
Where dem jerk mon?
Yogi Panda
> of posting to rmmp ?
In my old country, we don't celebrate Christmas, and we still don't do
it here as much as the rest of the new country does. But gosh, Radu, you
are posting to rmmp too, and both of your old and new countries are
celebrating Christmas!
I do enjoy the holidays, I can play the piano until my fingers are well
oiled and able to appreciate, for example, the accuracy and
responsiveness of my action, something that I am beginning to lose/have
lost outside the holidays.
Later in life, I am perhaps going to buy a $3M art case Steinway even if
it isn't a quality musical instrument.
Yogi, just kidding
Barrie Heaton
>
>I have again been thinking of voicing the instrument down a little. How
>much effort will it take to make the tonal difference between long and
>short stick? How many hours of needling the hammers? Any other voicing
>technique that can be applied?
There are 3 methods needles, steam and liquids (alcohol or fabric
softener) . the latter 2 are used for deep toning and the alcohol or
fabric softener have been a result of the excessive use of hammer dope
by some manufactures. Steam as been around just as long as needles and
great care must be taken when used.
In your case needles is what I would use, it would also be a good time
to have the hammers re-faced. I would take the piano down is steps at
least a week between each step, when you are happy with the level, then
final toning would be done.
Barrie,
--
Barrie Heaton PGP key on request http://www.a440.co.uk/
AcryliKey Ivory Repair System UK © http://www.acrylikey.co.uk/
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Yogi Panda
> to have the hammers re-faced. I would take the piano down is steps at
> least a week between each step, when you are happy with the level, then
> final toning would be done.
Thanks for the comments, Barrie and Steve. So, OK, step by step, perhaps
an hour or two of needling the hammers every month or so, non?
My piano is less than two years old, though, the hammers are not even
grooved, although there are string marks in the centre of the register.
So hammer refacing is not necessary, non?
What is final toning?
Yogi
Ed Foote
an hour or two of needling the hammers every month or so, non? My piano is
less than two years old, though, the hammers are not even
grooved, although there are string marks in the centre of the register.
So hammer refacing is not necessary, non? >>
Greetings,
The use of needles can be damaging if they are improperly used.
Many hammers have been ruined by the use of shallow needling right on or
near the contact point, while ignoring the rest of the hammer. What is
required is the conditioning of the entire hammer structure, and for that to be
done with needles requires that the needles go in deep.
Whereas the softening of the hammer felt at the strike point can effect a
very rapid loss of brilliance, it is temporary and when the dead felt that it
causes becomes packed down, you have less tone that when you started. It also
doesn't create the full tonal range that the hammer is capable of, it only
deadens the attack of the hammer.
For full tone production, the hammer needs to be a combination of hardness
down deep under the strike point and a graduated density of felt from there up
to the top. This means that the shoulders must be free to flex and still be
strong enough to control the distortion of the hammer under full force.
Check your voicing by listening to the change of tone that results from
changing the level of force. When played ppp, there should be a VERY mellow,
dark, soft tone. As you play harder and harder, the tone should begin to
produce a higher and higher percentage of the higher frequencies as the note
gets louder. When it is properly voiced for the venue(and the customers
preference is an important component of this), then the hammer will produce
its maximum brilliance at the level of maximum force.
A predictable increase of brilliance as the force of playing is increased is
the parameter by which a hammer's voice is measured. A hammer that is only
softened at the strike point may be muted on soft play, but will go from a soft
sound to a hard sound with a very small increase in force. Horowitz's piano
was like this, but he had the control to handle it,(though I think his tone in
later years became somewhat brittle). A hammer that is overneedled will never
produce the brilliance at the top end and basically sound dead when you begin
pushing it harder and harder.
Once the hammer is loosened up with deep needling down on the shoulders, it
may need some slight touch-up needling every 200 hours of play and perhaps some
light reshaping every second or third voicing. An hour or two of needling
every month seems excessive.
Regards,
Ed Foote
Nashville, Tennessee
(The next one's in the can: "Six Degrees of Tonality" more info later)
http://www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/index.html
Barrie Heaton
>
>Thanks for the comments, Barrie and Steve. So, OK, step by step, perhaps
>an hour or two of needling the hammers every month or so, non?
>
>My piano is less than two years old, though, the hammers are not even
>grooved, although there are string marks in the centre of the register.
>So hammer refacing is not necessary, non?
One item that has not been mentioned is that the correct use of needles
can used to improve sustain on good quality hammers, (providing they
have not been bugged up ) the other methods can not do this and are not
ideal on a good piano.
I have 2 sets of needles 15mm and 10mm for deep and 5mm and 2mm for
picking out, plus different sizes and two toning tools. if you look
at the side of the hammer and you take the strike point as 12, if the
needles are inserted at 10 and 2 at an angel of about 40 degrees coming
back to the tail but not entering the core felt this will release some
of the tension just above the core at the same time making the outer
layers more elastic (but not harder) giving the hammer a spring in its
return, thus giving a cleaner strike.
Not easy subject to put into words, it takes lots of practise on good
quality hammers which most tuners don't get the chance to have a go on.
(twenty years age I did) Different makers have a different approach to
how they make there hammers S&S have a soft hammer with many layers they
dope them to suit the piano other makes start with a very hard hammer
with less layers and still dope them up making very deep needling hard
work.
Better long lasting results are achieved with needles than with other
methods
If you ever get the chance visit a felt factory go and see hammers being
made, you will be amassed in what goes into it. The Bacon felt
factory in the US now makes the raw sheets for S&S. up to the 80s they
were made at the Royal Gorge factory in Oldham, England, more work went
into hammer felt for S&S, manly in the way it was layered and pressed
than other makes.
Regards,
Yogi Panda
> picking out, plus different sizes and two toning tools.
Barrie,
What is a toning tool?
I even looked things up in my copy of Reblitz pp. 196-201, but I
couldn't find any reference to it.
Yogi
Yogi Panda
Thanks for the comments, more questions interspersed.
> For full tone production, the hammer needs to be a combination of hardness
> down deep under the strike point and a graduated density of felt from there up
> to the top. This means that the shoulders must be free to flex and still be
> strong enough to control the distortion of the hammer under full force.
My copy of Reblitz says in the diagram on p.198 something along the
lines of shallow needling at 12 o'clock, medium needling at 11 and 1
o'clock and deep needling at 10 and 2 o'clock. Is that the appropriate
means to the end described in the above quote? I seem to sense a caution
against the shallow needling at 12 o'clock and a preference in favour of
the deep needling at 10 and 2 o'clock.
> Check your voicing by listening to the change of tone that results from
> changing the level of force. When played ppp, there should be a VERY mellow,
> dark, soft tone. As you play harder and harder, the tone should begin to
> produce a higher and higher percentage of the higher frequencies as the note
> gets louder. When it is properly voiced for the venue(and the customers
> preference is an important component of this), then the hammer will produce
> its maximum brilliance at the level of maximum force.
Ed, I don't have a super duper Steinway with soft hammers and what you
referred to in past postings as 'malleable tone', I merely have a Kawai
(RX-3) which does have it but only to a limited extent. How much work is
it to move halfway towards Steinway's 'malleability'? Threequarters way?
All the way?
If I let the work do in small increments of one hour each month, how
many months will it take for halfway, threequarters way, all the way?
And how can I let the work do in small increments? One prick the first
time, a second prick the second time, a third prick the third time, etc
?
Yogi
Rick Clark
>I even looked things up in my copy of Reblitz pp. 196-201, but I
>couldn't find any reference to it.
Barrie is English, therefore he speaks a foreign language.
Rick Clark
Barrie Heaton
>> I have 2 sets of needles 15mm and 10mm for deep and 5mm and 2mm for
>> picking out, plus different sizes and two toning tools.
>
>Barrie,
>
>What is a toning tool?
Toning tool is what we put the needless in, I have one with adjustable
handle you can set the head to different angels and one that fits in
the palm of the hand, allowing you to grip hold the hammer head with
your thumb and 3rd index finger and apply the force with the palm of you
hand.
You may spell it as toneing the Oxford English Dic spells it as toning.
Voicing, BTW is what you do to harpsichords in the UK not pianos, just
one more difference in our language.
All the best
Yogi Panda
illustrated in Fig 5-57 in Reblitz p. 197.
Yogi
Yogi Panda
Thanks for the comments, more questions interspersed.
> For full tone production, the hammer needs to be a combination of hardness
> down deep under the strike point and a graduated density of felt from there up
> to the top. This means that the shoulders must be free to flex and still be
> strong enough to control the distortion of the hammer under full force.
My copy of Reblitz says in the diagram on p.198 something along the
lines of shallow needling at 12 o'clock, medium needling at 11 and 1
o'clock and deep needling at 10 and 2 o'clock. Is that the appropriate
means to the end described in the above quote? I seem to sense a caution
against the shallow needling at 12 o'clock and a preference in favour of
the deep needling at 10 and 2 o'clock.
> Check your voicing by listening to the change of tone that results from
> changing the level of force. When played ppp, there should be a VERY mellow,
> dark, soft tone. As you play harder and harder, the tone should begin to
> produce a higher and higher percentage of the higher frequencies as the note
> gets louder. When it is properly voiced for the venue(and the customers
> preference is an important component of this), then the hammer will produce
> its maximum brilliance at the level of maximum force.
Ed, I don't have a super duper Steinway with soft hammers and what you
Ed Foote
lines of shallow needling at 12 o'clock, medium needling at 11 and 1
o'clock and deep needling at 10 and 2 o'clock. Is that the appropriate
means to the end described in the above quote? I seem to sense a caution
against the shallow needling at 12 o'clock and a preference in favour of
the deep needling at 10 and 2 o'clock.
Greetings,
Yes, this is one approach, but there are considerations.
The felt at the contact point needs to be soft at the very surface. This is
where the mellowness comes from at the ppp level. The felt can be softened by
loosening the whole hammer, or it can be softened by breaking the fibers right
there with a needle. The former is much more durable a voicing than the
latter.
>> I don't have a super duper Steinway with soft hammers and what you referred
to in past postings as 'malleable tone', I merely have a Kawai
(RX-3) which does have it but only to a limited extent. How much work is it to
move halfway towards Steinway's 'malleability'? Threequarters way?
All the way?<<
Well, here is the crux of the Steinway sound. I don't know of any other
brand that will ultimately allow as wide a range of tonal response as the
Steinway grands. Most other high-end pianos can be worked up towards that
range, though. ( That is NOT a troll, just a personal observation).
>>If I let the work do in small increments of one hour each month, how many
months will it take for halfway, threequarters way, all the way?
And how can I let the work do in small increments? One prick the first
time, a second prick the second time, a third prick the third time, etc>>
My preferred approach to a new set of hammers is to do enough deep, deep,
needling way down on the shoulders ( at the 8:00-10:00 and 2:00-4:00 "o'clock
" positions) so that under the FF blows, there will be no harsh "breaking up"
of the sound. This lets me know that I have created some resilience in the
structure. This deep needling will still not produce the finer gradations of
the lower force playing, but it will allow the felt to move around and the
hammer to resolve some of the internal pressure. An increase in fundamental
usually accompanies this first treatement.
This initial voicing should then be left alone while the piano gets enough
playing to let the damage,( and needles do create damage, ie, breaking felt
fibers) to be absorbed. By relaxing some of the tension along the outer
surface of the hammer somewhat away from the strike point, the entire mass of
felt changes a little. The hammer will then be ready for slightly shallower
needling closer to the 11:00 and 1:00 o'clock positions.
The closer needle work then begins to feed resilience into the working area
of the felt, but must be done with care, since the compression in a hammer is
like air in a tire, once you let it out, there is no way to get it back in!
Hardeners reverse the effect to a degree, but usually begin to compromise the
width of the tonal range.
Once these two voicings are done, the need to cut fibers at the strike
point for mellowness are seldom needed. Occasionally there will be a localized
hard spot in the felt, and a bit of accupuncture is needed.
The final goal is to have a hammer with a graduated density between the tip
of the core and the surface of the felt. The degree of graduation is made
obvious by the degree of tonal change as the hammer is thrown harder and harder
into the strings. A hammer that is rock hard at the bottom, and puffy soft at
the very skin, with an even, gradual change between the two will exhibit a
tonal palette that a pianist can control. A hammer that is a rock
all the way through or soft all the way to the core will exhibit no "palette"
at all. The former will be brassy at all levels, the latter will be dead an no
amount of force will make it "speak".
The Steinway hammers are made soft, and the use of hardeners create the
graduation. My beef with this approach is the short life-span of the tone if
the hammers are hardened to sound really nice from the get-go. After several
hundred hours of play, the hammers become brassy and the tone becomes shrill.
The best sound seems to come from too-soft hammers that are played enough to
develop the brilliance, but it is harder to sell these pianos to the public;
they want it good, right now!
The RX pianos are capable of a wide range of tone if the hammers are
treated properly, but needling the crown accelerates the wear and imho, is
unnecessary if the whole structure is treated properly.
Yogi Panda
> of the core and the surface of the felt. The degree of graduation is made
> obvious by the degree of tonal change as the hammer is thrown harder and harder
> into the strings. A hammer that is rock hard at the bottom, and puffy soft at
> the very skin, with an even, gradual change between the two will exhibit a
> tonal palette that a pianist can control.
Wow, Ed, that was an illuminating essay!
> The RX pianos are capable of a wide range of tone if the hammers are
> treated properly, but needling the crown accelerates the wear and imho, is
> unnecessary if the whole structure is treated properly.
What do you mean by 'if the hammers are treated properly'? Do you mean
that the factory is not doing enough treatment to bring the RX hammers
to full potential in terms of achieving 'malleable tone'?
Yogi
Ed Foote
<> The RX pianos are capable of a wide range of tone if the hammers are
> treated properly, but needling the crown accelerates the wear and imho, is
> unnecessary if the whole structure is treated properly.
yogi asks:
What do you mean by 'if the hammers are treated properly'? Do you mean
that the factory is not doing enough treatment to bring the RX hammers to full
potential in terms of achieving 'malleable tone'?>>
not exactly.
The manufacturers do not know where their pianos are going to end up, nor who
will buy them, so their voicing is, of necessity, an average.
Above and beyond the inherent compromise the makers must make, the use of
these pianos is different from owner to owner, so there will be a need for
voicing any of them.
I think the RX pianos begin as nicely as any, but after they have been
played there will be the need to voice, and that is where the owner should
educate themselves. It is important to know what is involved, so that you can
protect yourself from the technician that doesn't!
Yogi Panda
> will buy them, so their voicing is, of necessity, an average.
> Above and beyond the inherent compromise the makers must make, the use of
> these pianos is different from owner to owner, so there will be a need for
> voicing any of them.
> I think the RX pianos begin as nicely as any, but after they have been
> played there will be the need to voice, and that is where the owner should
> educate themselves. It is important to know what is involved, so that you can
> protect yourself from the technician that doesn't!
When my (excellent) tech suggested to voice that one octave in the high
treble, I myself did not hear any voicing inconsistency at all, although
I let him do what he thought he needed to do. And vice versa, I heard (a
very slight) voicing inconsistency in the bass/treble break, the he did
not or only faintly noticed, but which he corrected to perfection, to my
ears anyway. I did see him use the voicing tool with the deep (ca 15 mm)
needles, BTW. Quite frankly, even if these voicings had not been done,
it would not bother me.
Moreover, as I wrote some months ago, I had the good luck of listening
to two RX-3 pianos side by side in a (European) store. One of which may
have been voiced down for a customer who then decided not to take it,
the other sounded like a standard voicing from the factory. I definitely
liked the standard voicing a lot better.
But it seems reasonable to explore what 1% or 2% of the instrument cost
can do to maintain or even improve the tone, and although I need more
time to think things over and not have the work done right away, thanks
for the education, Ed!
Yogi
vin...@my-deja.com
voicing. I have been thinking about whether to have my L hammers built
up a bit for more color. I really feel though that it would be better
to let the sound come on its on. My question is - after it has been
played enough for the hammers to begin bringing out more brillance will
it then need some needling at the soft-playing part of the hammer?
And is it possible just to even out some notes that seem to jump out
now with out interfering with its natural breaking in?
Ed Foote
more color. I really feel though that it would be better to let the sound come
on its on. My question is - after it has been
played enough for the hammers to begin bringing out more brillance will
it then need some needling at the soft-playing part of the hammer?<<
Greetings,
No, not as a rule. The surface compression is what begins to add that
brilliance, and since the felt under it still has some softness, the
combination is what provides you with that "tonal paintbrush".
>>And is it possible just to even out some notes that seem to jump out
now with out interfering with its natural breaking in?>>
Yes, there will always be a few notes above and below the optimum, and the
fastidious tech will just tone them down a little at each tuning, gradually
arriving at an evenness that will be durable.
I may not have made this caution, so will interate:
The Steinway hammers do not get needled on the shoulders! The only place the
needle is used on the Steinway hammers is straight down from the very top.
This needling is deep and usually only needs one or two punctures to have its
effect.
Steinway pianos require that the technician has brand-specific experience!
If you begin loosening up the shoulders of the Steinway hammers, you will ruin
them.
Yogi Panda
> needle is used on the Steinway hammers is straight down from the very top.
Ed,
I understand the above treatment is for Steinway hammers specifically.
The quote below is copied and pasted from a past posting of yours in
this thread. I deduce therefore, that the treatment below applies to any
other make of hammers except Steinway, is that correct? But over and
above that, do RX hammers respond particularly well to some peculiar
needle treatment? I understand your previous points beginning with the
item in the quote below, cautioning against shallow needling at the 12
o'clock position, etc.
Yogi
*********************
My preferred approach to a new set of hammers is to do enough deep,
deep,
needling way down on the shoulders ( at the 8:00-10:00 and 2:00-4:00
"o'clock
<snip>
*********************
Ed Foote
other make of hammers except Steinway, is that correct? <<
I cannot claim familiarity with all makes, but there are others that behave
similarly to Steinway hammers. The Ronson hammers are the only other ones like
Steinway that I am familiar with. They are soft to begin with.
>>But over and above that, do RX hammers respond particularly well to some
peculiar
needle treatment? <<
I don't have any experience with needling the RX hammers yet, the only
ones I have seen have been new and they were quite nice to begin with. This is
in contrast with other Kawai and Yamaha hammers, which all seem to be too hard.
We have a number of new Yamaha C2 and C3 pianos at Vanderbilt this year,
and they are already beginning to develop "hot-spots". I will know more about
the current hammers this summer, when I begin trying to voice them all back
down.
Yogi Panda
> ones I have seen have been new and they were quite nice to begin with. This is
> in contrast with other Kawai and Yamaha hammers, which all seem to be too hard.
When I selected the RX, I was completely ignorant about the hammer
issue, but I am glad to hear a confirmation on the hammer aspect of the
selection. Perhaps Don M will chime in on RX hammer specifics too.
My tech seems to be quite confident doing the (minor) voicing
corrections that I described earlier in this thread, my hope is that he
will be equally confident if in a year or so, the more consequential
voicing issue becomes imminent. I think that at the next tuning, I'll
engage him in a conversation along the lines of the discussion in this
thread, i.e. what he would do to change the voice from lid on long stick
to lid on short stick, etc
Yogi
Don Mannino RPT
The RX hammers are quite able to be customized to suit your ears. The
problem is that, until the work is done, it's hard for you to know if you
will like it! That's why it seems to be good advice to have it voiced down
a little all over, then decide if you want to go further at the next
service.
RX-3 hammers are extensively deep needled on the widest part by the factory,
up until the 10:00 - 2:00 area. Some cases are exceptions, but it rarely
accomplishes much for the technician to do more needling there.
The area between the ends 10:00 - 2:00 area up to ends of slight string
marks (speaking of well shaped hammers that have slight string marks from
one solid tuning) is where most of the fine needling is done to both
"customize" the tone to suit you, and to bring the piano to the best sound
overall.
Ed's post regarding tonal range is excellent. These hammers can give an
excellent range of tone. They can sound extremely mellow but still haved a
strong bite in fff playing if carefully voiced.
Kawai hammers usually sound best if lightly filed with very fine paper after
needling to smooth the uneven surface caused by the needling. Some
technicians do this by tapping on the felt with the backside of the voicing
tool, which also works well for light voicing work.
Don Mannino RPT
"Yogi Panda" <Yo...@n.da> wrote in message news:3A47664F...@n.da...
Yogi Panda
> problem is that, until the work is done, it's hard for you to know if you
> will like it! That's why it seems to be good advice to have it voiced down
> a little all over, then decide if you want to go further at the next
> service.
Thanks for the comments, Don! Is there a 'Voicing Guidelines for RX' in
brochure format or similar that I can use as a basis for discussions
with my tech?
I saw an announcement somewhere that you were holding a workshop on
'Voicing the EX' at one of the PTG conventions in the recent past.
Perhaps something along those lines captured in a nutshell.
This is not intended as training material for my tech, to be sure, I
just thought that it could be useful as a communications vehicle between
my tech and myself, other techs and RX owners may find it useful too.
Yogi
Tom Shaw
After reading this thread and observing your imposition on Mr. Foote (who
has kindly, I must say, answered your every question in detail) I must say
that were I a technician I wouldn't work for you for a million dollars a
tuning. What you are mentioning as a basis for discussion with your tech is
actually an ammunition build up to (1) show him how much smarter you are
than he is and/or (2) to interfere with his expertise as much as
possible...and then, of course, blame him for any deficiencies in the
results. We have a jerk like that in Jerry Jones who doesn't think a
football coach knows anything but he, himself does. He is an egomaniac.
IMO you should hire a tech you can trust and shut up or do the work
yourself.
TS
"Yogi Panda" <Yo...@n.da> wrote in message news:3A4B4FC8...@n.da...
Yogi Panda
You are merely showing that you never developed the ability to
communicate more subtle issues in constructive ways. It takes effort to
do so.
Yogi
Barrie Heaton
>Tom,
>
>You are merely showing that you never developed the ability to
>communicate more subtle issues in constructive ways. It takes effort to
>do so.
>
>Yogi
>
There are piano tuners out there who are very good practical tech's but
are clueless on the theoretical side of why they do it that way, they
will not take kindly to been told the theory of what they are doing no
mater how tactful you do it, in general they don't like other tuners who
recite chapter and verse at them, and seldom attend seminars for this
reason.
The old saying "a little knowledge can be dangerous"
You know your tuner, but not all who will read this thread will.
Tom Shaw
You said it better than I did.
TS
"Barrie Heaton" <Pi...@a440.co.uk> wrote in message
news:n4GwOJA6SIT6EA$k...@tower-forte.demon.co.uk...
Yogi Panda
It is not about theorizing (or prescribing) but about communications. If
you read the postings in this and other threads carefully, you will see
that Ed has a somewhat different view on voicing than Don, for example,
and I am positive that my tech will do voicings his own way too. So
there is a need to communicate on what needs to be done, and both tech
and customer need to spend some effort on the communication aspect of
the job.
This holds true for just about any professional job, e.g. I won't let a
surgeon operate on me if he just says that I need an operation. Luckily,
my tech and I have been communicating a lot better than that and I hope
that we will be communicating well again if the voicing issue comes up.
The best professionals always like talking about their job, BTW, be it
in theoretical terms or practical terms or whatever terms, consistent
with the work styles that they have developed for themselves. I have yet
to meet a competent professional who has problems explaining what he is
doing, it is usually just the other way around, i.e. after I ask a few
questions the best ones will inevitably tell me lots and lots more than
I ever need to know about the subject matter.
Yogi
Tom Shaw
AFAIAC what the piano player needs to do is tell the technician what results
he wants in terms of piano output, tone, action whatever. Not whether to
needle the shoulders of the hammers at 10 o'clock or at the strike point 12
mm deep with 2 strokes per hammer. I absolutely fail to see what these
technical details will add to the dialogue between the tech and the piano
owner except, possibly, to irritate the technician when the owner tells him
that tech so-and-so only needles the bass once every leap year so why do you
want to needle the treble every three years.
The bottom line is that if Yogi Panda understands such details so he can
negotiate the selection and extent of any particular technique then he
doesn't need an expert. I can just see him telling his lawyer what to do in
handling a case for him.
TS .
"Yogi Panda" <Yo...@n.da> wrote in message news:3A4CBD08...@n.da...
Yogi Panda
If YOU understood the details, then YOU would use it in non-constructive
ways, that's the reason why I said that YOU never developed the ability
to communicate more subtle issues in constructive ways. This is not the
first time I have observed this in YOUR writings.
I and others are using detail understanding in constructive ways, as a
starting point for asking the professional about his approaches, etc.
The more detail understanding one has, the more productive the
communication tends to be and a lot more enjoyable too for both!
You can develop this constructive ability too, that's a lot more
enjoyable for yourself than what you are doing all the time, not just in
your responses to me, but also in your comments on politics, etc, i.e.
the world is so bad and the like. If I go through this newsgroup by
hitting the 'next message' button and come across one of your postings,
then more often then not, you come across as a sour apple, no joke!
I don't expect you to understand this, not right away anyway. I tried on
a previous occasion to communicate with you, but you just exhibited your
usual self and took just about anything I said in a non-constructive way
or even worse. Perhaps you can read one of those 'Power of Positive
Thinking' books and practice those ideas in real life. Sheesh!
Yogi
Barrie Heaton
>Hi Barrie,
>
>It is not about theorizing (or prescribing) but about communications. If
>you read the postings in this and other threads carefully, you will see
>that Ed has a somewhat different view on voicing than Don, for example,
>and I am positive that my tech will do voicings his own way too.
Exactly my point you tell your tech I have read that it should be done x
way why are you doing it Y, in some cases it will not go down well at
all.
Like I said not all tuners are happy discussing what, and why they are
doing what they are doing, in great technical detail. Most are happy
to give the client a simple version but get very defensive if you pick
them up on a point or two.
I can only relate the piano trade as I find it, I have worked for
companies that have had 7 techs on the shop floor and most you would
think they had singed the official secrets Act, they way the talked to
the general public.
Yogi Panda
> >you read the postings in this and other threads carefully, you will see
> >that Ed has a somewhat different view on voicing than Don, for example,
> >and I am positive that my tech will do voicings his own way too.
>
> Exactly my point you tell your tech I have read that it should be done x
> way why are you doing it Y, in some cases it will not go down well at
> all.
Hi Barrie,
You made me wonder whether I speak any English at all. I thought I
stated explicitly that 'my tech will do voicings his own way'. That is
completely different from 'me telling my tech I have read that it should
be done x way why are you doing it Y'.
One way of achieving common understanding about a voicing job could be
as follows. I say, the tone needs to change from lid on long stick to
short stick (sic). The tech may answer, I propose to do it x way. If
that's consistent (not necessarily identical) with what I know, then I
may say, what are the benefits of doing it this (x) way. The tech may
answer <whatever> and if that's consistent (not necessarily identical)
with what I know, then that's a green light for doing the job.
If there are differences to what the tech proposes and what I know, then
clarification is needed, sometimes the differences are merely at the
verbal level. Just about the best case is, if the differences turn out
to be based on the tech's own work methods that he has developed for
himself, that increases his credibility in my eyes, that's an instant go
for it. Just about the worst case is if the differences turn out to be
contradictory in substance to what I know and the tech can't explain the
contradiction, or if the tech vacillates saying things what he thinks I
want to hear and the like, that's an instant no go. Sometimes a give and
take process is necessary to resolve the differences.
That's a little more involved than the communications for a (reversible)
tuning job, a voicing job is not quite that reversible if something goes
wrong. This should be therefore desirable from the tech's point of view
too, by informing me what he is going to do and how, and by my consent,
I have been made a co-owner of the job, in other words, it protects the
tech. It also protects me from a tech who does not know what he is
doing. So getting the co-ownerships of both tech and me for the job is
of mutual benefit.
> Like I said not all tuners are happy discussing what, and why they are
> doing what they are doing, in great technical detail. Most are happy
> to give the client a simple version but get very defensive if you pick
> them up on a point or two.
I guess the more consequential and the more irreversible the job is, the
more communications has to happen, for mutual protection.
> I can only relate the piano trade as I find it, I have worked for
> companies that have had 7 techs on the shop floor and most you would
> think they had singed the official secrets Act, they way the talked to
> the general public.
It may be a matter of degree, but the above formulation sure sounds as
if they are doing a disservice to themselves.
Yogi
pianoguy
> Sheesh!
==============
Now you're talking!
--
pianoguy
return email disabled
Yogi Panda
> ==============
> Now you're talking!
Hi pianoguy,
Sheesh is a real word?
A real piano is a sheesh piano?
There are dealers out there selling unsheesh pianos?
Yogi
Barrie Heaton
>Hi Barrie,
>
>You made me wonder whether I speak any English at all. I thought I
>stated explicitly that 'my tech will do voicings his own way'. That is
>completely different from 'me telling my tech I have read that it should
>be done x way why are you doing it Y'.
Your English is probable better than mine I did say in article
In article <n4GwOJA6SIT6EA$k...@tower-forte.demon.co.uk>, Barrie Heaton
<Pi...@a440.co.uk> writes
You know your tuner, but not all who will read this thread will.
_ _
My intention was a general observation and not intended at you
directly,
Kind Regards
Yogi Panda
BTW, on how I usually handle the go/no go/negotiation of 'tasks that can
be described but not prescribed' so to speak.
Thanks for the compliment on my English, but some time ago someone took
his hat off for my 'serendipitous mistakes in English', LOL!
Yogi
James Boyk
> ...I have worked for companies that have had 7 techs on the shop floor and most you would think they had singed the official secrets Act, they way the talked to the general public.
Picking up on just this remark, I know what you mean. I worked very
happily for a quarter-century with a superb tuner/tech who, the first
time we met, really needed some very specific and concrete evidence that
I knew anything at all about pianos. And he was right to want the
evidence! I think most experts--not all, but perhaps 98%--want to see
that a layman knows what he's talking about before they will come
through with info and frank discussion. This is true in every field I'm
familiar with, whether pianos, audio, whatever. On the other hand, once
you *do* show that you've "paid your dues," and show due respect for the
expert's knowledge and experience--I'm not talking about flattery--then
I find that usually experts will be forthcoming. People love talking to
a receptive and appreciative audience.
With pianos, a wonderful first step is to play the instrument and
identify the downweight and dip just by how it feels. I've never had
anyone not talk to me after that. More important, though, is simply to
show that you the pianist realize that the tech's field is just as
complicated and subtle as the field of performing.
James Boyk
Barrie Heaton
<bo...@caltech.edu> writes
>Barrie Heaton wrote:
>> ...I have worked for companies that have had 7 techs on the shop floor and most
>you would think they had singed the official secrets Act, they way the talked to the
>general public.
>
>Picking up on just this remark, I know what you mean. I worked very
>happily for a quarter-century with a superb tuner/tech who, the first
>time we met, really needed some very specific and concrete evidence that
>I knew anything at all about pianos. And he was right to want the
>evidence! I think most experts--not all, but perhaps 98%--want to see
>that a layman knows what he's talking about before they will come
>through with info and frank discussion.
I think the Piano Trade and the French Polishing trade are more guarded
that other trades, about revelling the finer points of a particular part
of the job in hand.
In the UK it can be like that among tuners with each other as well. I
think this is all to do with how tuner/tech are trained in the UK 95%
are collage trained, so we all receive a good foundation to start us
off, However, the down side, is that tools like ETA,s are frowned on by
the UK piano trade at grass roots level to the point that you can not
use one to pass the test to join any of the UK piano trade
organizations, and 5 years ago you would been regarded as a cowboy tuner
if you possessed one - this sort of attitude is bad for the trade as it
will, and does stifle the exchange of ideas.
The Internet has opened the eyes of some UK tuners but they don't join
in like they should do, at present there are aprox 200 UK tuners with
access to the Internet a few observe the PTG list and maybe this news
group, a list server has been started in the UK but it is restricted
accesses, unlike the PTG list open to all.
I will now go and nurse my cold.