Monterey Bay, general ranting.
Joe Sestrich
<ja...@no.spam.ever.bellatlantic.net> wrote:
> Since I've started a small fire, I'll add my more specific
> culinary criticisms of MB. The first time i was there, I had the sesame
>tuna, with some sort of >compound butter. I ordered the tuna rare.
>
> When the tuna came, the portion was huge. The sesame seeds it was coated
>in had been cooked at so high a temperature
> that they were black. The seeds charred, ashen taste marred
> every bite thereafter.
Well, you lost credibility with me right there. I've had that dish and
unless they've changed the recipe or they ran out and some idiot decided to
"substitute", the sesame seeds are *supposed* to be black. They come that
way naturally. In fact I Iiked the preparation, and bought the same sesame
seeds at the grocery to use at home, (and also some wasabi for mashed
potatoes. ) However, I 've been to Monterey 3 times, and the first time was
great, but each time thereafter was a little less impressive, so who knows.
I've been to the Pittsburgh Fish Mkt twice for dinner, once for lunch, and
a couple times at the sushi bar, and I've never had a complaint. Had dinner
at Steelhead on Saturday for the first time, I thought everything was fine,
I'd give it an 8 or 9 out of 10. The menu was a bit limited in choices. It
also annoys me to spend $49 on an $18 bottle of wine. I'm sorry, but that's
just like the $4 box of jujubes at the movies. It's a practice that needs
to change.
I like cheap places, too. I go to Applebee's on McKnight a lot, they do
what they do ok. I work downtown, and *never* go to fast food for lunch,
except out of desperation. I want to go where the owner is working behind
the counter. I like the Big Burrito group, Kaya. They're usually good at
giving you a human sized portion of creatively prepared food at a
reasonable cost, and their servers are usually intelligent and
enthusiastic about the food.
In general, portions are way too big. If I can buy a 12 oz piece of tuna
for $20 dollars, why can't I go somewhere and get a 6 oz piece for $10 or
$12? I like getting apps and or soup, and my wife loves dessert, but you're
stuffing me with the entree. I can't even fit a second beer (which used to
come in a 10 oz draft glass, now it's 16) in at a casual place, or my wife
passes up the $ 4.00 dessert cause she's stuffed. If you gave me less, I'd
buy more.
Service sucks everywhere. Nobody gives a shit about anyone but themselves,
so how are you supposed to train waitstaff? They're the final link between
the chef and customer, and they're usually responsible for
keeping up the dessert tray, bread, dressings, sometimes they even make the
salads. Half the time they abandon you as soon as they drop off the food,
and if somethings missing or incorrect, you're out of luck. By the time you
get their attention, your wife is half done eating, or your food is cold.
Or you could have sold me that second $3.75 import beer, and boosted your
check average. By the time you come back, I don't want it anymore. Just
water, please.
I worked in fine dining kitchens for 15 years, and I know how difficult it
is to get people (cooks included) to recognize the difference between good
and bad, and actually give a shit. It cuts across all levels, too. I've
had great meals at little hole-in-the-wall places, and so-so ones at a fine
dining place.
Even a simple hamburger can go from great to awful, based on how much care
you take with it. Is the bun grilled, or is it cold and stale? Nicely
built, or slapped together and falling apart? Garnished in some way? Pickle
on the side? How about the fries? Fresh and hot, or cold and gummy?
Undercooked or overcooked? If you asked for mustard or mayo, did you get
it? My wife likes to dip her fries in ranch dressing, she only gets it
about %50 of the time when she asks for it.
Notice that none of these things actually *cost* the business anything,
(unless you need to re-do something), yet they are the things that get your
attention,and make you come back when they are done consistently well.
I'm not looking for a guy named Jeeves with clenched teeth and a towel
over his arm, but is respectful and knowledgeable about the menu too much
to ask?
JN
"Joe Sestrich" <js...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote in message
news:2767968522.956250708@GRUEL64.PPP.ANDREW.CMU.EDU...
> Well, you lost credibility with me right there. I've had that dish and
> unless they've changed the recipe or they ran out and some idiot decided to
> "substitute", the sesame seeds are *supposed* to be black. They come that
Joe, Joe, Joe,
I *know* what black sesame seeds are. Whether or
not they were black sesame seeds, I recognize a charred seed
when I see it: the little seed shaped ash was a really big clue,
so was the nasty, burnt sesame taste.
More simply: toasted/roasted seeds(no matter the color)=good
burnt/charred=bad.
Don't assume ignorance of everyone posting on Usenet.
Pamela Peele
can't pgh produce professional service? is it a cultural thing here?
re monterey bay one more time. i ate there once with a dinner guest who
ordered the sesame tuna. what a disaster! it was awful. this beautiful
slice of tuna was embedded with burnt sesame seeds that we could not
sucessfully scrape off. it ruined the taste of the fish. it made me feel
bad about the entire city.
further, i personally like mayo with my fries. and i rarely bother even
asking in the states b/c i prefer fresh mayo to the jar stuff that is so
often used here. but still, if a diner asks for something explicitly, i
expect the establishment to try its best to produce it. that is the
difference between a so-so restaurant (read that most pgh places) and a
good restaurant.
want to have a wonderful dinner, go to le bec fin in philly. for that
matter go to the fountain restaurant in philly or the striped bass in
philly.
check out cuisnet on the web for ratings for cities you might be visiting
soon. you will rarely go wrong with a four seasons hotel restaurant.
okay, back to lurking for me. pp
Jeremiah McAuliffe
<pe...@vms.cis.pitt.edu> wrote:
>i agree with joe, the service in pgh sucks everywhere. why is that? why
>can't pgh produce professional service? is it a cultural thing here?
Well, I've got two cents on that one.
This is now quite a few years ago but..... I worked as a waiter for
TGI Fridays (Tyson's Corner, VA) when they were still privately owned.
At that time everything was made fresh in the store.... even salad
dressings, etc. I, and we, were terrific servers. First, they didn't
just hire anyone. Second, there was about a two week training. One had
to know, and was tested, on every aspect of the menu and the food
prep, portion sizes, hundreds of specialty drinks-- everything. Didn't
pass the tests? Didn't work. In addition, after the classroom
training, you followed a "top ten" waiter/waitress (w/w-- pronounced
dub-dub) around for a week before you could even wait a table
yourself, and then it was under supervision of an experienced w/w
until they were confident in your abilities.
The w/w ranking system determined one's ability to choose shifts. So,
the goal was to get into the top ten. The ratings were not just by
management, but by other waitstaff as well. Even as I think back, I'm
quite amazed at how much pride and *ownership* we felt regarding the
store. The standards were very high. The top ten held in a kind of
awe.
I was quickly in the top ten (but of course!<g>), stayed there, and
made money. While the store itself only paid $2.01 an hour, tips were
generally in the 20%-25% range.
The store itself, and all Fridays at that time, took great pride in
their food. If it wasn't right, or acceptable to the w/w, we did not
have to accept it, and we were strict, and the kitchen staff knew
that. In addition, at that time Fridays did not advertise. It relied
on word of mouth. (Dan Scoggins, the owner had all sorts of little
"theories" that we were taught like mantras. One was the "four walls
theory"-- basically, that a restaurant's success or failure was
determined *only* by what went on within the four walls.)
The money that could have gone into advertising was used, instead, to
give food away. So, for instance, good customers got a free dessert or
drink. If the customer was even slightly unhappy with something we
paid for the meal. There was never any fight with a manager over this.
If the w/w went to the manager saying something like "table 34 didn't
really like their shrimp, can we promo it?" the answer would be "yes"
for the most part, or "give them deserts" or something like that. And
of course, there was never a fight with the kitchen if something
wasn't acceptable--- they made it over. The customers were kept happy.
Now, when I came to Pittsburgh to go to school I was able to transfer
to a Fridays up here. In figuring out my budget I checked the sales of
the stores... the Monroeville store was similar to the Tyson's Corner
store in sales and so that is where I went.
HOWEVER...... imagine my surprise when tips averaged only 10%. I
couldn't figure it out! What was I doing wrong? Well, nothing..... I
still kept sodas filled without being asked. People got their special
orders correct. NEVER had I been given such poor tips!
Pittsburgh diners were (and maybe still are) just lousy, lousy
tippers. I sure hope that has changed..... you do get what you pay
for! (I've had arguments with people here about this---- the tip is
*part of the cost of the meal* and is minimally 15% of the bill,
unless service is particularly bad, more if it is particularly good.)
At the same time, Fridays went public. Slowly we stopped making all
our own food... the fries came in frozen, the dressings bottled, etc.
Fridays became generic. Training for w/ws cut down to a week, and
then, it was just a couple hours a day, not almost a full day (with
homework needed that evening and detailed testing!) So, it became just
another restaurant, and for the workers, just another job, and they
hire just about anyone.
I have some friends who still work there.... we often lament what the
restaurant was and what it has become......
Chalk bad service up to corporate mentalities, cutting costs, and
greed.....
Jeremiah McAuliffe ali...@city-net.com
Visit Dr. Jihad! Page O' Heavy Issues
http://speed.city-net.com/~alimhaq/miaha.html
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Pamela Peele
Jeremiah McAuliffe wrote in message
<7JYBOUv3+Jugvp...@4ax.com>...
>On Fri, 21 Apr 2000 17:27:52 -0400, "Pamela Peele"
><pe...@vms.cis.pitt.edu> wrote:
>
>>i agree with joe, the service in pgh sucks everywhere. why is that? why
>>can't pgh produce professional service? is it a cultural thing here?
>
>Well, I've got two cents on that one.
>
>tippers. I sure hope that has changed..... you do get what you pay
>for! (I've had arguments with people here about this---- the tip is
>*part of the cost of the meal* and is minimally 15% of the bill,
>unless service is particularly bad, more if it is particularly good.)
>
>
>greed.....
>
explanation makes no sense. if it were true then corp ownership and profit
max'ing are not practiced in many restaurants.
it is not that wait staff are uniformly unprofessional (supported by simple
observation). go to le bec fin, susanne foo, the stiped bass, the fountain
(all philly places) or beccos, china grill, union sq cafe, russian tea room,
aquagrill, patria (all nyc places) just for a small sample.... they all have
professional wait staff. so wait staff are not uniformly poor and
unprofessional.
there are many examples of restaurants with professional wait staffs (just
not here in pgh). the restaurant business is a brutal one (here and
elsewhere) and those not closely watching their bottom lines will not be in
business long (even in pgh). i don't think profit max'ing creates
unprofessional wait staffs, quite the contrary, i would expect it to support
professional wait staffs... that is the interface between your kitchen and
your diner.
my impression is that pgh'ers do not demand or expect professional wait
staff. maybe they don't even want it. certainly if they are tipping 10% on
avg, they are getting what they pay for and may not value or be willing to
pay more for better service.
but not everybody who lives here is a native of this place and i would
expect some businesses to realize that and cater to the subset of folks who
1) expect and are willing to pay for professional service and 2) expect and
are willing to pay for exceptional dining.
i am always surprised at the baum vivant for example. they have good food
(the sauteed fois gras is quiet nice), but the service there is very uneven.
i have had excellent, professional service there, and mediocre service at
other times. i don't understand it. and i bet the diners there leave more
than a 10% tip too.
i was a solid 20% tipper when i moved here. but i don't get service that
warrents that very often now and i have moved down to a 15% tipper for pgh
dining. i would love to go back to tipping 20% b/c it would mean that i was
getting professional service.
can someone enlighten me as to why there seems to be a dearth of
professional wait staff here (and can you direct me to places that have
consistent, professional wait staff and good food)?
PP
Jonathan Goodish
<ali...@city-net.com> wrote:
> Pittsburgh diners were (and maybe still are) just lousy, lousy
> tippers. I sure hope that has changed..... you do get what you pay
> for! (I've had arguments with people here about this---- the tip is
> *part of the cost of the meal* and is minimally 15% of the bill,
> unless service is particularly bad, more if it is particularly good.)
That is absolute nonsense. Tips are a gratuity, which is a priviledge,
not a right. As a customer of a restaurant, I have absolutely ZERO
obligation to tip.
That being said, I usually tip at least 10%, often 20% if the SERVICE is
good. Good service and bad food will still get a tip, but excellent food
and poor service will get no tip. If both are REALLY bad, occasionally I
won't pay the full bill (this has happened only ONCE in my lifetime so
far, and the restaurant is now out of business.)
I think service is going downhill in a LOT of restaurants because of the
trend to use "wait staff" and "servers." I place my order with the wait
staff, and then someone ELSE brings me the food. I may never see the wait
staff again until the check comes. I don't like this at all; it
impersonalizes service and, in most cases, has just caused restaurants
with good service go downhill fast. Along with this trend comes the "tip
pool," where any tips left don't go to the wait staff, but rather are
placed into a pool and divided among all of the staff who worked a
particular shift. I don't like this either, and often will NOT tip at
these restaurants unless I tip with cash and make sure that I personally
hand it to the wait staff.
JKG
JAY SKELTON
server/waitstaff. The people have been there for years, know what they
need to do to make a good buck and they do it.
As for other restaurants, there is such an influx of restaurants popping
up almost every day. With that it as a restaurant manager is
increasingly difficult to locate good help. Good help doesnt leave
restaurants. Anymore we have to rely on mediocre help just to have
enough staff to run our establishment. High school students and college
students are one of the reasons service has declined. For the most part
they have nothing to care about, they do this part time to make extra
cash, and do not consider this a "real" job, so therefore really do not
care. There are very few "professional" servers out there that do this
"for a living"
This is not a cop out, but more an insight as to why service has
declined so rapidly in this area.
Jonathan Goodish
> As for other restaurants, there is such an influx of restaurants popping
> up almost every day. With that it as a restaurant manager is
> increasingly difficult to locate good help. Good help doesnt leave
> restaurants. Anymore we have to rely on mediocre help just to have
> enough staff to run our establishment. High school students and college
> students are one of the reasons service has declined. For the most part
> they have nothing to care about, they do this part time to make extra
> cash, and do not consider this a "real" job, so therefore really do not
> care. There are very few "professional" servers out there that do this
I blame part of the attitude problem on the CUSTOMER. I am careful to
never leave a tip unless I think the service is good. If it's not what I
consider to be good service, no tip. Tips are not an entitlement, but so
many people leave them by default that, to some wait staff, they seem like
an entitlement. If more people didn't tip when the service was mediocre
or poor, and did tip when the service was really good, I have a feeling
that much of the problem would disappear as those high school students
learn that better service==more money for them.
The other part of the blame has to go to the wait staff/server model. In
this model, where there's an "equal distribution of wealth" from tips,
there is no incentive for one waiter/waitress to do any better than
another.
JKG
Thomas Edgar Nichols
Goo...@mail.co
> <ali...@city-net.com> wrote:
> > Pittsburgh diners were (and maybe still are) just lousy, lousy
> > tippers. I sure hope that has changed..... you do get what you pay
> > for! (I've had arguments with people here about this---- the tip is
> > *part of the cost of the meal* and is minimally 15% of the bill,
> > unless service is particularly bad, more if it is particularly good.)
>
> That is absolute nonsense. Tips are a gratuity, which is a priviledge,
> not a right. As a customer of a restaurant, I have absolutely ZERO
> obligation to tip.
How can you say that when you know people are getting paid $2/hr!?
I hate the system, but the system is that these people don't get paid a
decent wage unless customers tip. (In Europe, where restaurant workers
make a real wage, tipping isn't so critical, and by convention much
less... e.g. in Germany we just rounded up the bill to the whole
DeutchMark.)
Hence, because of a screwed up system where people get paid 3rd world
hourly wages, I feel a moral obligation to tip.
-Tom
Jeremiah McAuliffe
<pe...@vms.cis.pitt.edu> wrote:
>>
>>Chalk bad service up to corporate mentalities, cutting costs, and
>>greed.....
>>
> i can't just chalk it up to corp mentality or cost cutting or greed. that
>explanation makes no sense. if it were true then corp ownership and profit
>max'ing are not practiced in many restaurants.
Well..... I should have been clearer in that statement..... the lack
of *training* due to cost-cutting.....
Jeremiah McAuliffe
wrote:
care. There are very few "professional" servers out there that do
this
>
>I blame part of the attitude problem on the CUSTOMER. I am careful to
>never leave a tip unless I think the service is good. If it's not what I
>consider to be good service, no tip. Tips are not an entitlement,
Tips are part of the cost of your meal. Most restaurants only pay the
wait staff a couple bucks an hour. They are expected to make at least
minimum wage by means of their tips. If people took your nasty
attitude then you could expect to pay substantially more for the
food... perhaps that is a better system, I don't know.... but then I
suppose we'd hear complaints about the high cost of the meal.
Man! If I were you I would never go back to a restaurant where you
didn't tip..... there might be funky things in your food. <laughing
*choke*>
Precisely what do you consider to be good service that merits your
couple of bucks?
Jeremiah McAuliffe
wrote:
>In article <7JYBOUv3+Jugvp...@4ax.com>, Jeremiah McAuliffe
><ali...@city-net.com> wrote:
>> Pittsburgh diners were (and maybe still are) just lousy, lousy
>> tippers. I sure hope that has changed..... you do get what you pay
>> for! (I've had arguments with people here about this---- the tip is
>> *part of the cost of the meal* and is minimally 15% of the bill,
>> unless service is particularly bad, more if it is particularly good.)
>
>That is absolute nonsense. Tips are a gratuity, which is a priviledge,
>not a right. As a customer of a restaurant, I have absolutely ZERO
>obligation to tip.
Then you will find yourself paying more for the meals.
Did you read the whole post? Restaurants often pay less than the
minimum wage.... the waiters get paid by the tips.... if you don't
tip, they'll have to pay the wait staff, upping the cost of the actual
meal.
Tipping is part of the cost of the meal.....
Jeremiah McAuliffe
>> That is absolute nonsense. Tips are a gratuity, which is a priviledge,
>> not a right. As a customer of a restaurant, I have absolutely ZERO
>> obligation to tip.
>
And if you know that, and still refuse to tip... then you are
knowingly taking free labor... its called "exploitation." :-/
Now, I'm sure none of us like to think of ourselves as exploiters of
others..... and I'm sure, that armed with this knowledge, any decent
person will change their attitude towards tipping. I hope.....
Sam Pistachio
> >That is absolute nonsense. Tips are a gratuity, which is a priviledge,
> >not a right. As a customer of a restaurant, I have absolutely ZERO
> >obligation to tip.
>
> Then you will find yourself paying more for the meals.
>
> Did you read the whole post? Restaurants often pay less than the
> minimum wage.... the waiters get paid by the tips.... if you don't
> tip, they'll have to pay the wait staff, upping the cost of the actual
> meal.
>
> Tipping is part of the cost of the meal.....
>
No, it isn't! The menu price is the price of the meal, INCLUDING someone to
bring it out, toss it down, snarl, and walk away. Now if that person
expects a tip, they will actually offer me a service, such as WAITING on me,
being polite and helpful, filling my drink, etc. The argument that they
make under minimum wage is bull. If you want to be a pissed-off worker, go
to McDonalds and earn your minimum wage + for scowling at customers.
On the other hand, when I run across a server who is actually good at their
job and give great service, I tip generously. Around 20% at least. AND I
go out of my way to talk to the manager to compliment the wait staff.
S !
Jeremiah McAuliffe
<Pyth...@zbzoom.net> wrote:
>Jeremiah McAuliffe wrote:
>> Tipping is part of the cost of the meal.....
>>
>
>No, it isn't! The menu price is the price of the meal, INCLUDING someone to
>bring it out, toss it down, snarl, and walk away. Now if that person
>expects a tip, they will actually offer me a service, such as WAITING on me,
>being polite and helpful, filling my drink, etc. The argument that they
>make under minimum wage is bull. If you want to be a pissed-off worker, go
>to McDonalds and earn your minimum wage + for scowling at customers.
Bud, I'm not a pissed off worker. I don't wait tables. I did it many
years ago... if you would bother reading the posts.... maybe you
wouldn't come across as such a jerk.
The point is (some of you can eat, but you seem to have some trouble
reading) restaurants do not pay their wait staff minimum.... they are
expected to make their money from the tips. The example I gave was
when I worked at Fridays, now many years ago, and we were paid $2.01
an hour, far below the minimum even at that time.
So, following some logic here..... if you have the attitude that you
don't have to tip, then the restaurant is going to have to pay the
wait staff, which will translate into higher prices for the actual
meal.
Now, again, maybe that is indeed a better system, but don't pretend
that the cost of the meal is actually paying for all the labor. Unless
things have changed, and I don't think they have, it does not pay for
all the labor.... your tip has to make it up.
So, in conclusion, when you go out, figure that the tip is also part
of the cost of the meal. In general, that is considered 15%. Less if
the service is particularly bad, more if particularly good.
These are not difficult points to grasp.
Jeremiah McAuliffe
Jonathan Goodish
<ali...@city-net.com> wrote:
> The point is (some of you can eat, but you seem to have some trouble
> reading) restaurants do not pay their wait staff minimum.... they are
> expected to make their money from the tips. The example I gave was
> when I worked at Fridays, now many years ago, and we were paid $2.01
> an hour, far below the minimum even at that time.
You know what? Not my problem. You should know what your hourly rate is
(regardless of whether it's minimum or not) before you take the job. You
don't like what they're paying you? Don't take the job.
> So, following some logic here..... if you have the attitude that you
> don't have to tip, then the restaurant is going to have to pay the
> wait staff, which will translate into higher prices for the actual
> meal.
Well, the FACT is that I DON'T have to tip. However, I do tip if the
service is good. Tips, or gratuity, are by definition a priviledge and
not an entitlement. Without the "priviledge" part, there is no incentive
for anyone to provide the customer with good service.
Whether or not the restaurant management sees it this way is another
discussion entirely. It's obvious that some do (where you get good
service,) but it's also obvious that some do not (where you don't get good
service.) Where management teaches that tips are an entitlement, and
where wait staff views tips as an entitlement, I'm almost guaranteed to
NOT get acceptable service.
JKG
Jeremiah McAuliffe
wrote:
>In article <0B8COfXmWbfN3l...@4ax.com>, Jeremiah McAuliffe
><ali...@city-net.com> wrote:
>> The point is (some of you can eat, but you seem to have some trouble
>> reading) restaurants do not pay their wait staff minimum.... they are
>> expected to make their money from the tips. The example I gave was
>> when I worked at Fridays, now many years ago, and we were paid $2.01
>> an hour, far below the minimum even at that time.
>
>You know what? Not my problem.
Nice attitude.
The fact is, you are then an exploiter.... the waiter or waitress pays
tax regardless.
And we wonder why our kids are nutsy and violent.....
Jonathan Goodish
<ali...@city-net.com> wrote:
> The fact is, you are then an exploiter.... the waiter or waitress pays
> tax regardless.
Huh? What the heck are you talking about?
> And we wonder why our kids are nutsy and violent.....
Exactly. Apparently, they grow up learning to expect entitlements and to
have things handed to them, and then complain when they don't get those
things.
The patrons of a restaurant work hard to earn money so that they can spend
it in such a dining establishment. They don't earn it to subsidize your
wages because you don't make as much as you think you should. A tip (or
gratuity, as it's also called) is not an entitlement.
Don't like what you're making? Get another job that pays more. That's
excellent advice for ANY career field.
JKG
Jeremiah McAuliffe
wrote:
>thats hogwash, the industry standard of Service Labor is 10%, big deal
15%
Even Dear Abby knows that.
Guess Pittsburgh diners get *exactly* the kind of service they
deserve.... lousy.
You guys are cheap, selfish, and nasty.
Again, a suggestion, I wouldn't go to any one particular restaurant
with any regularity... you will indeed get just what you merit.
JAY SKELTON
as hell better earn $3 an hour between tables or they shouldnt be in the
business.
Jeremiah McAuliffe wrote:
>
> On Sat, 22 Apr 2000 12:13:18 -0400, j...@mail.com (Jonathan Goodish)
> wrote:
>
> >In article <7JYBOUv3+Jugvp...@4ax.com>, Jeremiah McAuliffe
> ><ali...@city-net.com> wrote:
> >> Pittsburgh diners were (and maybe still are) just lousy, lousy
> >> tippers. I sure hope that has changed..... you do get what you pay
> >> for! (I've had arguments with people here about this---- the tip is
> >> *part of the cost of the meal* and is minimally 15% of the bill,
> >> unless service is particularly bad, more if it is particularly good.)
> >
> >That is absolute nonsense. Tips are a gratuity, which is a priviledge,
> >not a right. As a customer of a restaurant, I have absolutely ZERO
> >obligation to tip.
>
> Then you will find yourself paying more for the meals.
>
> Did you read the whole post? Restaurants often pay less than the
> minimum wage.... the waiters get paid by the tips.... if you don't
> tip, they'll have to pay the wait staff, upping the cost of the actual
> meal.
>
> Tipping is part of the cost of the meal.....
>
JAY SKELTON
Sam Pistachio wrote:
>
> Jeremiah McAuliffe wrote:
>
> > >That is absolute nonsense. Tips are a gratuity, which is a priviledge,
> > >not a right. As a customer of a restaurant, I have absolutely ZERO
> > >obligation to tip.
> >
> > Then you will find yourself paying more for the meals.
> >
> > Did you read the whole post? Restaurants often pay less than the
> > minimum wage.... the waiters get paid by the tips.... if you don't
> > tip, they'll have to pay the wait staff, upping the cost of the actual
> > meal.
> >
> > Tipping is part of the cost of the meal.....
> >
>
> No, it isn't! The menu price is the price of the meal, INCLUDING someone to
> bring it out, toss it down, snarl, and walk away. Now if that person
> expects a tip, they will actually offer me a service, such as WAITING on me,
> being polite and helpful, filling my drink, etc. The argument that they
> make under minimum wage is bull. If you want to be a pissed-off worker, go
> to McDonalds and earn your minimum wage + for scowling at customers.
>
Calvin Hawke
For those unfamiliar (and not easily offended by graphic
language), you may refer to
http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/redriver/540/script.html.
Scroll down a bit to the line "You don't believe in tipping?"
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Kobey DeVale
> In article <k2oCOZlXPjrbVXK23=C+dg3...@4ax.com>, Jeremiah McAuliffe
> <ali...@city-net.com> wrote:
> > The fact is, you are then an exploiter.... the waiter or waitress pays
> > tax regardless.
>
> Huh? What the heck are you talking about?
>
I guess I will stop lurking and jump in. Many years ago when I was a
waitress there were 2 ways of calculating a wait person's taxable wage.
1. You actually claimed your tips.
2. Some percentage of the meals you served was automatically claimed. I do
not remember what the percentage was.
The restaurant decided which method to support. Therefore, if the restaurant
was using method #2 and you stiffed then we get to the situation mentioned
above.
Personally, I do not like the European system. I like being in the feedback
loop. Generally in Sweden it takes an act of God for someone to refill my
water glass. (We are saying European but I do not think I actually refers
to all of Europe - Italy anyone?)
On the other hand one of things I initially liked about my now husband was
his tipping style. I had dated some very nice guys who were stingy tippers
for the service received - it made me uncomfortable.
BTW I just got outstanding service at the Olive Garden. Not a place I would
expect the level of service I received.
Anyone else think that the declining service level isn't just associated with
the restaurant industry? Personally, I
think it is a more general trend.
Obviously tipping is not required - you can legally leave the restaurant
without tipping. On the other hand there
is the expectation of a tip for reasonable service. Definitely the
expectation exists for good or excellent service. I know people who never
tip - they find it extravagant. Personally I think they should not dine at
places with wait staff.
>
>
> > And we wonder why our kids are nutsy and violent.....
>
> Exactly. Apparently, they grow up learning to expect entitlements and to
> have things handed to them, and then complain when they don't get those
> things.
>
> The patrons of a restaurant work hard to earn money so that they can spend
> it in such a dining establishment. They don't earn it to subsidize your
> wages because you don't make as much as you think you should. A tip (or
> gratuity, as it's also called) is not an entitlement.
>
> Don't like what you're making? Get another job that pays more. That's
> excellent advice for ANY career field.
>
> JKG
--
Kobey DeVale
Matt Silberstein
<kde...@ece.cmu.edu>:
[snip]
|On the other hand one of things I initially liked about my now husband was
|his tipping style. I had dated some very nice guys who were stingy tippers
|for the service received - it made me uncomfortable.
It is considered a good way to test how a date treats people. And how
they will act sexually. Not saying it is universal or anything, just a
worthwhile clue.
|BTW I just got outstanding service at the Olive Garden. Not a place I would
|expect the level of service I received.
|
|Anyone else think that the declining service level isn't just associated with
|the restaurant industry? Personally, I
|think it is a more general trend.
There are several factors involved. One, of course, was that
everything was better when we were young, the world is going to hell
in a hand cart and has been since ancient times. (See .sig.)
More seriously, the U.S. has some conflicting views of service
positions. We (used to at least) have this general objection to
serving others. Americans were "Free Men" and all that. So we did not
like the european style. I think this works on both sides of the
plate, so to speak. The good economy affects this as well. Many
companies, not just restaurants, find it hard to get people for low
paid positions. And waiting on tables is not easy and takes quite a
bit of experience to master.
|Obviously tipping is not required - you can legally leave the restaurant
|without tipping. On the other hand there
|is the expectation of a tip for reasonable service. Definitely the
|expectation exists for good or excellent service. I know people who never
|tip - they find it extravagant. Personally I think they should not dine at
|places with wait staff.
It is that kind of arrogance, and it is arrogance, that bothers me.
The notion, expressed here recently, that my views on how things
should work are how things do work. If I think that tipping is an
inappropriate way to run things, then it is inappropriate and isn't
really done. The term here is parasite. The people who don't tip are
effectively living off of those who do. They get the service the
waiter/ress would give to a tipping customer. Calling it an
"entitlement" and dismissing it is just a smoke screen. It is not an
entitlement, it is payment for services rendered, you just get to set
the pay rate with a default expectation of 15% for normal behavior.
[snip]
Matt Silberstein
===========================
Let others praise ancient times, I am glad to live in these.
Ovid
Christine Berliner
> Good service is a premium anymore. Good restaurants have no turnover in
> server/waitstaff. The people have been there for years, know what they
> need to do to make a good buck and they do it.
>
> As for other restaurants, there is such an influx of restaurants popping
> up almost every day. With that it as a restaurant manager is
> increasingly difficult to locate good help. Good help doesnt leave
> restaurants. Anymore we have to rely on mediocre help just to have
> enough staff to run our establishment. High school students and college
> students are one of the reasons service has declined. For the most part
> they have nothing to care about, they do this part time to make extra
> cash, and do not consider this a "real" job, so therefore really do not
> care. There are very few "professional" servers out there that do this
> "for a living"
>
> This is not a cop out, but more an insight as to why service has
> declined so rapidly in this area.
>
It seems there is not a singular reason for poor table service in
Pittsburgh, but rather a group of issues that contribute to a general
attitude: What the Pgh customer wants or puts up with; how much they tip;
what type of folks make up the wait staff; and, finally, what the
restauranteurs attitude is.
In this particular post, I'd like to address two things.
[1] Good wait staff WILL leave a restaurant if they can get more respect &
money elsewhere. I think the respect part is just as important as the $
part. If they are ALREADY getting the respect & $, then they will stay.
You CAN get them if you are willing, but not if you want to pay H.S. &
college student wages.
(and which restaurants are these that seem to be hogging up all the good
wait staff?)
[2] If it is clear to the H.S. & college students that this is an
important job, then they will do it correctly. This means training and
maintenance, and... respect from the owners/managers/bosses. It also means
you have to be tough with the lazy, rude, incompetent servers. It also
means that if a customer complains, you show the server how to handle the
problem correctly: the customer is always right, but this doesn't make the
server always wrong. Lead by example.
I hear in your post a valid issue about availability of quality help, but
I don't hear anything about creating quality as a general attitude
throughout your organization. Perhaps it is there, and I just missed it...
Christine
Christine Berliner
chri...@pitt.edu
JN
on this newsgroup have any experience in restaurants, save
as patrons.
First off the tip/tax thing: server's do not "pay taxes on sales
for which they get stiffed." The mandatory percentage that folks
make so much of is a number significant only to employers. If a
server does not claim at least 8% of his sales in tips, as an
employer, you must claim it for him. Servers, as the rest of us,
must legally claim all of their income. Almost all servers do
better than 8%.
That said, servers make a very modest living for the work that
they do. As a former restaurant manager, the good servers averaged
around $32,000 gross in a year, most made significantly less. This
was at a high-profile, expensive, busy, Pittsburgh restaurant. While that
sounds like a decent wage, there is no upside, no promotion. It is a dead
end job. They all worked *very* hard for their money. It is a demanding
job--stressful, physically and emotionally tiring, requiring large amounts
of study to be truly excellent.
BTW--I extrapolated this number from their gross sales and hourly
wages, not from their claimed tips, which are often fictional.
Why so few good servers? First off, the smart ones soon figure out
that if they are smart enough to do this job, they can find something
else that pays more easily enough. Those who stay in the job
are constrained somehow by lack of education, substance abuse,
or financial problems. Most consumers will not pay enough for
good service to attract really talented people.
Given the current labor market, you are not getting the cream
of the crop to work as restaurant servers. To expect them to perform
as such is folly.
How do I know so much? I started as server, worked my way through
college, and became a restaurant manager. I have about 12 years of
experience in the restaurant business both as an employee and as a manager.
(Though I'm now thankfully out of the business)
lorieanne redovan
Jeremiah McAuliffe wrote:
>
> On Sat, 22 Apr 2000 17:10:26 -0400, Sam Pistachio
> <Pyth...@zbzoom.net> wrote:
>
> >Jeremiah McAuliffe wrote:
>
> >> Tipping is part of the cost of the meal.....
> >>
> >
> >No, it isn't! The menu price is the price of the meal, INCLUDING someone to
> >bring it out, toss it down, snarl, and walk away. Now if that person
> >expects a tip, they will actually offer me a service, such as WAITING on me,
> >being polite and helpful, filling my drink, etc. The argument that they
> >make under minimum wage is bull. If you want to be a pissed-off worker, go
> >to McDonalds and earn your minimum wage + for scowling at customers.
>
> Bud, I'm not a pissed off worker. I don't wait tables. I did it many
> years ago... if you would bother reading the posts.... maybe you
> wouldn't come across as such a jerk.
>
> The point is (some of you can eat, but you seem to have some trouble
> reading) restaurants do not pay their wait staff minimum.... they are
> expected to make their money from the tips. The example I gave was
> when I worked at Fridays, now many years ago, and we were paid $2.01
> an hour, far below the minimum even at that time.
>
> So, following some logic here..... if you have the attitude that you
> don't have to tip, then the restaurant is going to have to pay the
> wait staff, which will translate into higher prices for the actual
> meal.
>
> Now, again, maybe that is indeed a better system, but don't pretend
> that the cost of the meal is actually paying for all the labor. Unless
> things have changed, and I don't think they have, it does not pay for
> all the labor.... your tip has to make it up.
>
> So, in conclusion, when you go out, figure that the tip is also part
> of the cost of the meal. In general, that is considered 15%. Less if
> the service is particularly bad, more if particularly good.
>
> These are not difficult points to grasp.
>
Jim Mann
lorieanne redovan wrote in message <393C9806...@home.com>...
>It's 8%. For example, If a patron spends $50 on dinner, the server is
>assessed $4 and pays taxes on that $4 weather it was or was not
>received.
>
Hopefully, at the very least this balances out,and ideally you then wind up
with more than that. If I have a $50 dinner, unless the service is actively
bad, I expect to pay $8-$10 as a tip.
---
Jim Mann