Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss

PML vs LOC

13 views
Skip to first unread message

Ron

unread,
Aug 4, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/4/00
to
Considering PML and LOC, does anyone have an opinion on which kit(s) one
should purchase? No doubt there will be both sides of this fence and
several arguments, but I have had a few PML's and have had really good luck
with them. I wanted to try something different so I tried a LOC (EZI-65)
and found several things I didn't much like, such as: needing to glass the
airframe, really weak shock chord, questionable launch lugs, need for
recovery wadding, etc.... Don't pound me for writing this, I really just
want to know why I should buy LOC and would like to hear the positive side.

Also, (and I don't work for PML) PML, in my opinion has some really good
resources for kit specs, motor suggestions, etc.. I haven't been able to
find anything on which motor I should fly the LOC on... And LOC's web site
is no help - or I missed it.

Thanks

Ron


Mnrdengnr

unread,
Aug 5, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/5/00
to
Ron,

You won't get any argument from me on PML. I own a Cirrus, Stratus, Xcaliber,
Type 'A' Eclipse and a Quantum Leap. Also, I just lost a Bullpup. All of my
kits have been modified for dual deployment, even the 38mm BT's. Also, Andrew
in Tech Support is very friendly and replies almost instantly to emails.

Another company worth bragging about is Transolve. I use a Transolve P5 for
deployment and ST2 for staging. My L2 cert was with the Eclipse on a J350 and
dual deployment. Worked like a charm.

I sent my P5 back for sonic inhibit upgrade and I have never had better
service. John at Transolve is extremely courteous.

Disclamer: I do not work for PML or Transolve but I would like to own stock in
them.

Chris TRA 8010

Jackbearjr

unread,
Aug 5, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/5/00
to
>I wanted to try something different so I tried a LOC (EZI-65)
>and found several things I didn't much like, such as: needing to glass the
>airframe, really weak shock chord, questionable launch lugs, need for
>recovery wadding, etc....

I have built several kits of both makes. Glass the airframe? LOC tubing will
withstand more thrust than it gets credit for. My Magnum has been up on a J800
with no glass except what was used to repair a fin after I landed it without
the main chute once. And (FWIW, YMMV) it has logged 12 flights on the same
stock piece of bungee. (I am going to change it out before the next flight on
general principles - I have tempted fate enough). The only kit of any size I
use the stock shock cord in.

OTOH I have seen the stock PML chutes withstand some fairly severe high speed
deployments. I got two delays switched once and put a White Lightning 14 second
delay in a I300 Blue Thunder motor in a PML AmRaam3, for an undertified appx.
18 second delay. Only stripped one line off the chute, easily sewn back, 5"
zipper in the airframe with non stock tubular nylon shock cord.
Jack W. Kale, Jr. NAR #70384 Insured, Tripoli #5798 Level 2

Timmy, you can't take it with you, so if you have a sandwich and your blue
jeans, chill. Your old man, Paul. (1st century, paraphrased)

RocketDude775842

unread,
Aug 5, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/5/00
to
>Considering PML and LOC, does anyone have an opinion on which kit(s) one
>should purchase?

All things considered, customer service, kits, etc... I have to say I'll only
buy from LOC and never PML. I've bought and built from both, as well as having
experience communicating with the personnel.

Scott Jenkins
TRA 7101
Sco...@aol.com

Jls833

unread,
Aug 5, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/5/00
to
> I tried a LOC (EZI-65)
>and found several things I didn't much like, such as: needing to glass the
>airframe, really weak shock chord, questionable launch lugs, need for
>recovery wadding, etc....

Sounds like you already know your answer. I like both companies but would pick
LOC "if" I had to pick just one. More basic no frills solid kits. Glad I
don't have to pick though. I have 5 LOC rockets and 3 PMLs.

Jim

Rocket9005

unread,
Aug 5, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/5/00
to
>Considering PML and LOC, does anyone have an opinion on which kit(s) one
>should purchase?

Buy one of each in the same "class" of kits, and see which one you prefer. I
have built both. I have always had to modify (improvise) LOC kits, built I
built the PML Kits stock. Both performed "nominally". The stock LOC kits are
lighter if impulse is a problem (cert level), but the PML kits have a feel to
them which is second to none.

I had to call PML about wrong fins that I got in an Explorer kit, they sent the
correct out right away, before I returned the wrong ones. I called LOC about
some WARPED fins that I got on a Mini-Mag, They told me how to fix the warp,
but gave me the impression that I was wasting thier time in the phone.

I plan on buying more PML kits.

John

JMoore5196

unread,
Aug 5, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/5/00
to
I've had nearly a dozen PML kits and a half-dozen LOC kits. The main
difference, to me, is in customer service. Ron is a nice enough guy, but when
you call to ask him a question, he responds as though he has better things to
do...and maybe he does!
The guys (and gal) at PML, on the other hand, seem eager to talk with you about
their stuff.
I must say that, dollar for dollar, PML kits seem a better value than LOC.
They certainly require less modification and guesswork than LOC kits. I do
wish their product range was a bit more varied, but you can't have everything.
When I was growing up in the late '60's and early '70's, we often had the same
sort of argument regarding a couple of companies you've probably heard
of...Estes and Centuri. Both, sadly, are long gone. The
tear-it-out-of-the-box and put-it-in-the-sky Estes of today is no relation to
the one I knew as a kid!

Ron

unread,
Aug 5, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/5/00
to
Thanks for the reply.

I tend more towards PML as I am not the best craftsman and it seems that
there is a little less to do than with the LOC... No doubt I will continue
to buy both in the future.

Do you (or anyone else remember the larger) motors you could buy back in the
60's. We also started out with Estes and Centuri (A - D) and in about 1967
or so, we found that we could buy rather large motors in the 20 - 40 lbs
thrust range so they must have been E - G motors or something. I flew them
for about 2 years (couldn't afford more than 1 or 2 every few months) but
believe it or not, I never really looked beyond "how many lbs of thrust does
it have?" - We grow and learn.

Thanks,

Ron


JMoore5196 wrote in message
<20000805115959...@ng-md1.aol.com>...

Crussell51

unread,
Aug 6, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/6/00
to
Ron wrote, perhaps as a general statement:

Coaster motors were offered by the company of the same name in the '60's in
Euless, TX which is between Fort Worth and Dallas. Centuri Engineering out ofn
Arizona offered the Mini-Max line of D, E, and F motors. I spent many hours
trying to figure how I might be able to purchase a kit and some motors in the
late '60's. The biggest problem was the cost of shipping the motors "railway
express". Makes today's Hazmat charges look sane. Mini-Maxes were
questionable motors from the ones I observed. I am sure others had better
results.
Irv Wait in Indiana had a company called RDC - Rocket Development Corp. He
developed the first commercial composite motor - the Enerjet-8. References on
this newsgroup about varible delays have refered to this motor. You literally
had a length of fuse lit by the motor exhaust to determine the delay. Still
have the catalog somewhere. Later, Centuri bought Irv's rights to the enerjet
and sold E's and F's. G motors were not allowed under the "model" rocket
definition at the times.
That is a whole 'nother thread.
Sure wish I'd bought the L'l Hustler kit when it was in a local shop back in
Ohio.

Chas Russell
NAR 9790

nyac...@my-deja.com

unread,
Aug 6, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/6/00
to
> but gave me the impression that I was wasting thier time in the
phone.
>
> I plan on buying more PML kits.
>
Got the same feeling on-line. Asked about info for Rocksim and their
reply "suggested" that I could find some from Apogee. I'm still
learning about HPR, itchin' to spend. At least have some download on
their top sellers. Hey, who ya gonna call?... Think I'll stick with PML
til I learn more.

Carl
NAR # 76928


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Bob Kaplow

unread,
Aug 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/8/00
to
Once again, I didn't see the original post, but based on the responses, I'd
comment that both LOC and PML are the cream of the crop. The machining and
fit on both are absolutely perfect. The difference is personal preference:
traditional kraft tubes and plywood fins from LOC, stiffer but more brittle
phenolic, or the new plastic Quantum tube and G10 fins from PML. Go with
which ever one you prefer. You'll get a good product from either one.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Ctrl-Alt-Del"

Kaplow Klips: http://members.aol.com/myhprcato/KaplowKlips.html (baffle too!)
NIRA: http://www.nira.chicago.il.us NAR: http://www.nar.org
SPAM: spamr...@ChooseYourmail.com u...@ftc.gov postm...@127.0.0.1

Bert Harless

unread,
Aug 8, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/8/00
to
Between me , my son and another friend we have about 7 rockets made from
PML parts, either scratchbuilt or kits. I only have one PML kit at the
moment, an Intruder. It made it's maiden voyage last Saturday at Pawnee
Natl. Grasslands on an I161 ,about 2500', great flight BTW. I like the
idea of the piston ejection, seems pretty tough and reliable. The
quantum tube is very easy to get a good finish on, no filler needed.
We've been using 3M 8115 panel bonder for fillets and gluing parts
together, it's an automotive product that I have access to from my son
the body man. It comes out smooth and sticks very well to just about
anything. Any serious rockets that I build in the future will use QT
and fiberglass fins held together with the 8115. I'm sick and tired of
repairing plastic or plywood fins, and I guess I'm too lazy to go the
whole fiberglass route. Are PML kits tough? You bet they are. Last
Saturday we were getting some pretty stiff winds and I saw some nasty
landings, one was a PML Endeavor that had to going 35MPH horizontally
when it touched down, it flipped end over end about three times and came
out without a scratch. Another came down with a tangled chute and
actually bounced about 3 feet. All of the PML stuff that I saw flown
came out undamaged. I guess some of you guys are lucky enough to fly
over grass or weeds or whatever and it's no big deal but here in
Colorado we have cactus, sagebrush and rocks the size of Rhode Island to
land on. I've been tempted to build a LOC kit, they look very good and
undoubtedly perform great, but I think I'll stay with what has worked
well for me, PML. If you want to do something different buy the PML
parts and do a scratchbuilt.

Bert

Ron wrote:
>
> Considering PML and LOC, does anyone have an opinion on which kit(s) one

> should purchase? No doubt there will be both sides of this fence and
> several arguments, but I have had a few PML's and have had really good luck

> with them. I wanted to try something different so I tried a LOC (EZI-65)


> and found several things I didn't much like, such as: needing to glass the
> airframe, really weak shock chord, questionable launch lugs, need for

> recovery wadding, etc.... Don't pound me for writing this, I really just
> want to know why I should buy LOC and would like to hear the positive side.
>
> Also, (and I don't work for PML) PML, in my opinion has some really good
> resources for kit specs, motor suggestions, etc.. I haven't been able to
> find anything on which motor I should fly the LOC on... And LOC's web site
> is no help - or I missed it.
>
> Thanks
>
> Ron

--
The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe
is that it has never tried to contact us.
remove the nospam from my address to reply

JMoore5196

unread,
Aug 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM8/11/00
to
Ron, might you be thinking of the old Centuri Enerjet motors and associated
kits? Just a thought.

0 new messages