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House Parliamentary Inquiry - part 3

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Rod Keller

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Nov 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM11/11/97
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I urge my colleagues not to vote for this resolution.

Mr. GILMAN. Mr. Speaker, I yield 2 minutes to the gentleman from Arizona
[Mr. Salmon].

Mr. SALMON. Mr. Speaker, I really respect the folks that have gotten up to
speak in opposition. I believe that they believe very strongly in their
position, and we cannot criticize somebody for speaking their beliefs.
That is what this is all about. But I am flabbergasted at those who might
suggest that since there is other persecution, religious persecution,
going on in the world that we should not start with this.

Mr. Speaker, frankly I am pretty appalled to hear that kind of language
because there is religious persecution going on in the world, and we have
to start somewhere. Here we have an opportunity to stand up and reaffirm
what this country is all about, and I am very, very dismayed that some
have picked up on this taxation comment. This is simply a sense of
Congress. It was one of the examples used of many.

We are not asking Germany to change their taxation policies. We would be
as offended if they did that to us. We are simply using many, many
examples whereby minority religions, again this is much broader than
Scientology, are persecuted in Germany. We are asking for them to reaffirm
a position, simply to reaffirm their position which their Constitution
states, and that is that they endorse religious tolerance in the country
of Germany.

Yes, they are an ally, and yes we treasure that relationship, but we ought
to be able to go to them and tell them the things which trouble us.

I was talking with the gentleman from Ohio [Mr. Ney], and he pointed out
in the paper this morning that there was a German citizen who was just
granted asylum in this country because of religious persecution in
Germany. Yes, that is right, granted asylum in this country because of
religious persecution in Germany. We have got to do all that we can to
stop that.

And again, I want to reaffirm it is much more than taxation. That was
simply one of the ideas that we enumerated in the many ideas or the many
examples of religious intolerance in Germany. Let us get beyond that. Let
us read the bill, because it is much broader than that, and let us
practice what we preach and stand for religious tolerance across the
globe.

Mr. BEREUTER. Mr. Speaker, I yield 2 minutes to the gentleman from
Massachusetts [Mr. Frank].

Mr. FRANK of Massachusetts. Mr. Speaker, I am opposed to this resolution,
and I think that I am as sensitive to the issue of persecution as anyone.
I believe I am the leader in minority group membership in the House,
claiming two myself, and I am going to vote against this resolution.

I would not vote for a resolution that approved of the way Germany is
dealing with the Scientologists and others, but I do not believe a case
has been made to do the very, very solemn act of having this House of
Representatives single them out for condemnation. There are a lot of
things in this world of which we disapprove, and I think the gentleman
from Virginia quite correctly pointed out that if we were going to make a
list of practices worthy of condemnation in this great democratic
institution, even those critical of Germany's treatment of Scientologists
would put it much lower on the list than practices that have gone
unmentioned here. So there is a disproportion.

Secondly, and I understand from my friend from Arizona that is in the
resolution, my colleagues cannot disclaim it, they also have in the
resolution a specific example that people in the youth wing of two
political parties boycotted movies. Well, I do not always like people who
boycott movies, but are we going to have a resolution condemning the
Baptists for condemning Disney? I mean, to intermingle genuine religious
persecution with a decision by private individuals to boycott a movie is a
mistake. It is also inappropriate.

Also I do think we should practice what we preach, but I do not think we
should preach what we do not practice. If we are going to look at people
who are engaging in inappropriate religious persecution, I think the
Governor of Alabama would be on my list. I think people who are atheists
and agnostics in parts of Alabama are under assault and having their
constitutional rights impinged by the Governor of Alabama.

The fact is that Germany is overall a very democratic nation. It is not
perfect. There are not a lot of perfect countries around. But to single
out Germany this way while other countries that have far worse patterns of
abuse are ignored, to intermingle legitimate efforts like a boycott by
political parties with actual persecution and to ignore some of the
problems we have ourselves is wholly inappropriate.

So, Mr. Speaker, I do not think this resolution ought to pass.

[Page: H10523]

Mr. BEREUTER. Mr. Speaker, I thank the gentleman from Massachusetts for
his strong statement.

Mr. Speaker, I yield 2 minutes to the gentleman from Florida [Mr.
McCollum].

(Mr. McCOLLUM asked and was given permission to revise and extend his
remarks.)

Mr. McCOLLUM. Mr. Speaker, I thank the gentleman for yielding this time to
me, and I rise today in opposition to this resolution mainly because I
have experienced a discussion over a period of time as a member of the
Congressional study group on Germany with German members of Parliament
about the issue, particularly of persecution of Scientologists and those
reports we have had.

I recall going over there earlier this year and engaging in quite a
lengthy discussion with several of their members over this matter, and I
have examined the paperwork and the documents and the press accounts and
so on, and I am not here today to be able to talk about every instance of
allegation of somebody being persecuted with respect to a particular
religion, but with respect to the Scientologists in particular I am
unconvinced that the Germans are in any way persecuting them.

Germany has a different kind of system for recognizing religions over
there than we do, and I do not necessarily agree with that, but they have
a system in which there is not tithing like we have. They collect the
taxes from the people, the contributions, if my colleagues will, to the
churches, and apportion them out to the various churches that are
recognized, if my colleagues will, by the government. I do not, again like
I say, necessarily agree with that, but the fact that they do not think
that Scientology merits their giving them this status and the, quote,
persecution that people perceive occurring simply because they are not
recognized for purposes under the German Government's auspices to practice
religion is not a reason to have this resolution out here today.

The truth of the matter is that Scientologists are perceived over there,
rightly or wrongly, and some have said that here in this country, I do not
know if it is right or wrong, as having persecuted some of their own
members. There are those who I have heard over the years allege that it is
difficult to ever quit the Church of Scientology. There are parents that
have complained their children have been held in against their will. There
are all kinds of arguments like that.

But I was hearing in Germany, again I do not know the merits of them, but
that is what the German Government believes. It is not just an issue of
taxation. They do not think that this group, that is the Scientologists,
are truly deserving of their recognition. It is not a matter of are they
Christian, are they Buddhists, are they whatever, it is a matter of the
way they behaved in Germany and their belief that they are not indeed
entitled to this recognition.

So I would urge a defeat of this resolution. It is very, very damaging to
our relationship with Germany.

Mr. BEREUTER. Mr. Speaker, I thank the gentleman from Florida for his
strong statement.

Mr. Speaker, I yield 2 minutes to the distinguished gentleman from Ohio
[Mr. Oxley] the chairman of the German American study group.

(Mr. OXLEY asked and was given permission to revise and extend his
remarks.)

Mr. OXLEY. Mr. Speaker, I also rise in opposition to this, I think,
well-intentioned effort, but what is really the purpose behind this
resolution? Is it to embarrass the German Government? Is it to embarrass
the German people? What will ultimately come out of passage of this
resolution? I frankly fail to see what good it would do.

As the gentleman from Nebraska [Mr. Bereuter] indicated, I am the chairman
this year of the congressional study group on Germany and have had
numerous discussions with our colleagues from the Bundestag particularly
and also with the German Ambassador about this very sensitive issue.

I was concerned, frankly, when I looked at a copy of the letter from the
German Ambassador to the distinguished chairman of the Committee on
International Relations, the gentleman from New York [Mr. Gilman], in
which he indicates that he had offered to have a discussion with those who
would support this amendment, and as near as I can tell, and this was
dated October 29, has had no opportunity whatsoever to tell the German
side of the story on this matter. I find that frankly appalling when
Germany is one of our staunchest allies and ones who have a great deal at
stake in our success in Europe, expanding NATO, expanding trade relations
and the like. And so instead of trying to stick a needle in the eye of the
Germans, it seems to me we ought to be more helpful in trying to come to
understand what these problems are.

I find the language in this resolution quite strong, particularly when it
talks about a German fostering an atmosphere of intolerance toward certain
minority religious groups. Then it goes on to say the resolution expresses
concerns that artists from the United States, members of minority
religious groups, continue to experience German Government discrimination.
Now, I fail to see how the German government is somehow behind these
boycotts of certain movies. There may be particular political groups, but
as the gentleman from Massachusetts [Mr. Frank] said, that happens all the
time over here.

So I would say to our friends, let us defeat this resolution and look
toward a more positive attitude as we relate to our strong allies such as
Germany.

Mr. BEREUTER. Mr. Speaker, I yield myself such time as I may consume.

Mr, Speaker, I understand the other side has a closing statement, and so I
will conclude the opposition to the resolution, and I do rise and continue
my strong opposition to the resolution.

Germany is a free country in which religious freedom is guaranteed under
the Constitution and thus sacrosanct. The U.S. State Department country
report on human rights clearly confirms this in its most recent report.

I would add that I think we need to be reminded every time that what we do
as a body expressing our views on foreign policy is taken very seriously.
This resolution is not balanced. It singles out Germany for a variety of
practices, particularly those related to Scientology where their position
is no different than seven or eight other European countries and several
other countries outside the European Continent.

[Page: H10524]

[TIME: 1815]

This is a troubling situation for them. It is a matter that is pending
currently in their tax court. But I think it is important we not have Tom
Cruise or John Travolta setting foreign policy in this country, and I
think that is a driving factor behind this legislation. It is very
unfortunate. I urge my colleagues to oppose the resolution.

Mr. Speaker, I yield back the balance of my time.

Mr. GILMAN. Mr. Speaker, I yield the balance of my time to the gentleman
from Ohio [Mr. Ney], who will give our concluding remarks.

Mr. NEY. Mr. Speaker, it is probably pretty good we are coming down to the
closure, because now we are coming down to the ridiculous, to mention that
Tom Cruise and John Travolta are setting foreign policy. John Travolta and
Tom Cruise and Ann Archer and Chick Corea are fortunate enough to have a
celebrity status that can bring attention to the issue of discrimination,
not alleged, not taxation, but discrimination.

So I am glad that their intent is not to set foreign policy, but they have
given of their time to set forth a cause that is very, very important to
those who cannot be on this floor to speak or, to those who do not have
celebrity status, to be able to be heard, not only here, but in Germany.

This is not about taxation. Let me tell you about support, as far as
people saying this does not have support. Things do not get lightly here
to the floor. This was not introduced yesterday. This has been around. It
has support, because Democrats and Republicans have voiced that they want
this on the floor tonight, Mr. Speaker. They want the people of this
country and the people around the world to understand this issue, Mr.
Speaker.

And the fact that now our Government has gone a step further and has
officially granted asylum, do you know how hard it is to get asylum? Our
Government stated yesterday, it was in the Washington Post today, that
asylum has been granted to a German citizen because they dared to be
something different, of a different religion, than us. That is how far
this has gone.

Painful words, someone said. It is a shame we are to the point of what
someone may consider painful words. The reason we have painful words is
because there have been painful deeds, not something someone has made up,
but posters that say `no thank you' to a play on the word of `sect,' of
minority religions.

It goes a little beyond that. Those official sanction posters that have a
fly swatter to swat at those pesky little minority members of a religion.
It has gone to the point of not someone saying, let's not watch a movie,
but of a government that has told citizens of the United States that you
in fact shall not perform in the country of Germany because you are a
different religion that we just simply do not like that is the type of
thing that has occurred.

I went to Germany. We tried to talk about this and got the fist pounding
that, we will not talk about it. As far as primary sponsors, I would ask
any of my colleagues if either side of the aisle sitting on the floor of
this House tonight, Mr. Speaker, if anybody from the German Embassy called
them, because I have been out front on this issue for religious freedom
for minorities, and we haven't had any calls, and I did a quick check, and
nobody I know of supporting this has had any type of call in fact.

All we know is in the press. Today in Germany, they just said, as a matter
of fact, an official of the German Government simply said this will not be
brought up by the U.S. Congress until after January maybe to be discussed,
because I guess they set our foreign policy now.

So no matter how good an ally, the real shame tonight is the fact that
they have not wanted to communicate on this issue. The fact is, they
continue to want to choose who in fact from this country can go to their
country, who in fact they will put under surveillance because they simply
do not like the type of religion they are.

These are Americans we are talking about. We are not out to destroy the
relationship of our country, but we are talking about standing up for the
rights of our own American citizens. That is what this is about tonight.

We cannot turn our back any longer on this issue. It has been mentioned
about the other religions, about the Baha'is. It has been mentioned about
persecution of people around the world. I am sorry other things have not
hit the floor. I am not saying they are not important. I believe that we
should stand up for persecution around the world. We have done it in some
votes, obviously, with Chinese resolutions.

But just because those resolutions didn't hit the floor of this House
tonight does not mean this is not any more important.

So this is not something fabricated, this is not something we are
anti-German and we just wanted to bring this up tonight because we didn't
have anything to do. These are serious true incidents that have happened
over and over and over. Members of Congress have stated their feelings
about this and tried the diplomatic route over and over and over. And,
yes, this does have support, and that is how this did end up on the floor
of this House tonight.

This is about standing up, no matter what you think of another religion,
for American citizens' rights, and if the Democrat or the Republican Party
dared, dared, on the registration forms in the United States to say, `Are
you a Catholic or not?' or, `Are you a Protestant, or are you a Muslim, or
are you a Jew?' if that dared to happen in this country, do you know what
type of outcry there would be? On the forms, it happens over there about
certain religions only: Are you a member or not?

It does exist; it is real; we need to stand up.

In closing, I am a Roman Catholic of German background tonight that stands
on the floor simply saying, in fact, we have to stand up for religious
freedom tonight. Our country was found that way. They didn't say bring in
your tired, your poor, and the religion that we choose that can come here.
This is so basic to American principles that everybody should voice their
support of this.

I urge the bipartisan support of standing up tonight, not to slap at
another country, but to stand up tonight for religious freedom.

Mr. GILMAN. Mr. Speaker, I yield back the balance of my time.

The SPEAKER pro tempore. All time has expired. The question is on the
motion offered by the gentleman from New York [Mr. Gilman] that the House
suspend the rules and agree to the concurrent resolution, House Concurrent
Resolution 22, as amended.

The question was taken; and on a division (demanded by Mr. Bereuter) there
were--ayes 3, noes 12.

Mr. SALMON. Mr. Speaker, on that I demand the yeas and nays.

The yeas and nays were ordered.

The SPEAKER pro tempore. Pursuant to clause 5 of rule I and the Chair's
prior announcement, further proceedings on this motion will be postponed.

--
Rod Keller / rke...@voicenet.com / Irresponsible Publisher
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