Speaker cable recommendation sought
Lou Anschuetz
As I gradually upgrade, I work hard to find the best match. In cabling
though, there are just too many to audition, so a good starting point
menu is sought.
I have Apogee Slant 6s as speakers (very good treble, good mid, weak
in the base, supported with Velodyne Sub natch) being run by a
McCormack DNA 1.0 Deluxe Edition. This turned out to be fortuitous
since the 6s can appear to be too bright on some material, and the
McCormack is better on the mids and base :)
But, I'm running junk cable between the amp and speakers and thus seek
a good match. I don't dislike what I hear, but I know $20 worth of
speaker cable is not doing the best of job.
Music tastes are very eclectic: jazz, blues, rock, classical
(particularly traditional music stuff), and even some home theatre [oh
no!].
As always, thanks for suggestions!
--
---
STRESS is when your gut says, "No way" and your mouth says, "Sure, no problem."
Lou Anschuetz, l...@zaphod.ece.cmu.edu
Network Manager, ECE, Carnegie Mellon University
ShLampen
Dear Cable Buyer,
Tell me why $20 worth of speaker cable is not doing what you want it to do?
Would $100 cable sound five times better? Does price have anything to do
with it?
You know, in your heart of hearts, that a lot of weirdo speaker cable cost
exactly the same to MANUFACTURE as your $20 cable, if not less.
I would suggest you blind test your $20 wire against any other
challengers before you plunk down money!
Steve Lampen
Technology Development Manager
Belden Wire & Cable Co.
Richmond, Indiana
www.belden.com
Johhny Crunch
Lou Anschuetz wrote:
> But, I'm running junk cable between the amp and speakers and thus seek
> a good match. I don't dislike what I hear, but I know $20 worth of
> speaker cable is not doing the best of job.
If you don't dislike what you hear, than why change? I'm running 2 6'
runs of 12 guage "crap" wire. It sounds friggin fantastic. Spending
another 2 grand on fancy wire named after something from the periodic
chart of elements seems silly to me, when that 2 grand could be used
to upgrade a peice of equipment that will actually AFFECT the sound to
some listenable degree (i.e., preamp, amp, speakers, etc)
feel free to disagree ...
--
"Hit Paydirt with KDRT"
Watzpower Corp.
Dear Steve,
to get things straight.
1. Any speaker cable does what I want it to do. The question is just how
good it does it.
2. Does your Porsche 911 drive five times faster than my Volkswagen ?
3. There are some things I know in my heart of hearts, unfortunately
there is nothing to be found about speaker cables.
4. I have blind tested four different types of speaker cable in the
price range between 20-600 DM/m (approx. 12-320 $/3 ft.) and could very
well determine differences (though I could not afford the most expensive
one). I was also able to recognize them (blind) again and again.
Oli
Arthur LeGrand Shapiro
Steve Lampen pontificates:
--> I would suggest you blind test your $20 wire against any other
--> challengers before you plunk down money!
I would think a relatively large company like Belden would have both
the resources and the technical expertise to purchase a set of, say,
ten different high-end speaker cables, disassemble them, and tell us
what's really inside. Indeed, why couldn't Belden get into the
business???
Nobody presumably enjoys plunking down big bucks for something as
unglamorous as wire, but to my ears it makes a difference.
I've been living with new speakers for 3 1/2 weeks, and was not happy
until removing my most expensive interconnect (a $750 Kimber KCTG
between preamp and amp) and replacing it with a Luminous Synchestra at
a third the price a few days ago. It definitely improved some tonal
anolmolies I could sense in piano midrange reproduction. I think I'm
headed toward an unpleasant period of further experimentation. And it
looks like my particular speaker cables, painfully chosen to optimize
my former Legacy Sig IIIs, are not going to be the best choice for the
system as it now is configured. We're talking four figure costs here,
so I'd love to have a $20 Belden cable that performed as well.
BTW, are any readers able to share opinions on Purist Collosus A
speaker cable? I've found a biwired set at a attractive price, but
have never owned any Purist cabling.
Art
Pete Goudreau
Can't do that...:-)
I built a spkr cable from some telephone binder group cable some time
back and compared it against Cardas Golden 5C at the local hifihut in
one of their reference systems. That's $16 (for TARA spades) versus
$2200 for the 5C. I couldn't hear the difference, try as I might,
although some of the guys at the store claimed to be able to. After
listening through that cable for a few months, I tried a slightly
different arrangement with the same wire and it did sound oh so slightly
different, and maybe a bit better. Either way, it really is awfully
difficult to imagine spending $2200 for wire that isn't any better than
something that you can buy for a few bucks a foot. As you say above,
spend the money on the items where it counts rather than on stuff like
this where it really doesn't seem to matter a whole lot. Then again, if
you think you hear a difference and don't mind spending the money, go
for it. Best of luck...
Cheers,
Pete
ShLampen
In article <5v9b77$j...@agate.berkeley.edu>, Arthur LeGrand Shapiro
<ART...@mpa15c.mv.unisys.com> writes:
>I would think a relatively large company like Belden would have both
>the resources and the technical expertise to purchase a set of, say,
>ten different high-end speaker cables, disassemble them, and tell us
>what's really inside. Indeed, why couldn't Belden get into the
>business???
As the world's largest producer of audio and video cable, we could do
just about anything we wanted! However, we come from a professional
and commerical background. This requires that what we make and what
we claim, we can PROVE. Data cable, for instance, must meet TIA/EIA
568A, which is an industyr standard. There aren't any cable standards
for audio (even professional audio) and this is why even professionals
make wrong choices sometimes.
So it's not that we don't believe you can hear a difference. It's
that there's nothing in our lab that can predict it, measure it, or
repeat the effect. I would LOVE to prove the existence of
directionality, oxygen-free, break-in or any other
currently-unmeasurable effect. Boy, would I! We'd make a mint!!!!
Steve Lampen
TPL
With all the discussions on cables, I wonder if there are articles
online that talk about the differences between braided vs solid core
vs flat cables in terms of their effects on the sound?
Tzu-Ping
Leslie Wolstenholme
In message <5vak6p$8...@agate.berkeley.edu>
shla...@aol.com (ShLampen) writes:
It is a pet theory of mine that there are things in heaven and on
earth of which we have little or no concept, let alone understanding.
There are forces at work within materials at such microscopic levels
which we are unable to measure using existing technology.
Such, I believe are the effects within cables used for transmission of
audio signals. Now, I don't want to get into Zen and such on this NG
but I strongly suspect that there is uncharted territory all around
us.
Steve wants to prove certain effects which as yet are only surmised.
Hopefully, within the next decade or so, new analytical processes may
emerge which enable us to 'see' inside materials.
As a for instance, before the invention of the electron microscope,
the structure of materials below a certain size could only be guessed
at.
My point is that because modern technology cannot at the moment
'prove' that something exists, does not necessarily mean that it does
not exist.
Even with all the test gear in the world, the best instrument for
measuring sound 'quality' is still a pair of ears.
Good listening,
Les W.........>>
Avondale Audio
ShLampen
In article <5vmg38$h...@agate.berkeley.edu>, Leslie Wolstenholme
<avon...@zetnet.co.uk> writes:
>There are forces at work within materials at such microscopic levels
>which we are unable to measure using existing technology.
I agree completely. To disagree is to negate all the scientific discovery
of the past.
>I strongly suspect that there is uncharted territory all around us.
No problem here either. In fact, I fully believe this.
>Steve wants to prove certain effects which as yet are only surmised.
>Hopefully, within the next decade or so, new analytical processes may
>emerge which enable us to 'see' inside materials.
Yes! And if you have any suggestions, I am all ears!
>My point is that because modern technology cannot at the moment
>'prove' that something exists, does not necessarily mean that it does
>not exist. Even with all the test gear in the world, the best instrument for
>measuring sound 'quality' is still a pair of ears.
Yes. But the problem is that the ear is not a repeatable test instrument.
If it were, we could have a professional "listener" checking all our audio
cables, just as we test them now for electrical performance. The problem is
that human perception is, historically, fraught with innaccuracy and
variability.
I once worked at a radio station where I help install some new consoles.
On the board they had EQ switches which could be modified with a card to
give different EQ settings to the annouce mic. However, the Director of
Engineering had not ordered the card so the switches just routed the audio
straight through. One day (out of meanness) he told the DJ's that each
button was a different EQ and they should play with it to see which one
they liked . (Remember they were all hard-wired and did nothing.) But sure
enough, after a week or so, each DJ, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, said that each
buttoi sounded different and that there was one the particularly
liked...and they even argued amongst themselves as to which one was better.
Even more astounding was, after the Director of Engineering told them it
was a joke and that the button did nothing, the DJ's didn't believe him and
CONTINUED TO USE THE BUTTON AS THEY ALREADY HAD. The human mind is a
powerful thing!!!!
If you believe you hear a difference, does that mean there really is a
difference, or you think there's a difference, or someone else would hear
the same difference, or a different difference? It is especially difficult
when even the terms of description (thin, weak, soft...are they the same
thing?) cannot be agreed upon. However, terms like volt, amp, and ohm are
defined and agreed upon and so can be used by anyone anywhere who sets his
lab up to those standards.
I wasn't kidding when I said I wish I could prove directionality (or any
other non lab parameter). Just imagine the money Belden could make if we
could measure directionality, make cables that way, and everyone who could
hear the difference agreed with what we did. We could make bundles of money
on low-cost cables (not unlike others already are).
There is no question that the more we know, the more we know we DON'T
know. (And with 100 engineers on staff, there's a whole bunch we don't
know...and nobody does either.) And I feel sorry for the consumers who
don't know (and can't be expected to know) the difference between
scientifically accepted standards and loony-fringe hype. But my opinion is
that anyone who has paid over $10 a foot for any audio cable has
unfortunately been in contact with the latter.
But one of the reasons I play on these newsgroups is because maybe, just
maybe, someone will suggest some way-out thing which turns out to not be so
way-out. Believe me, as much time as I spend defending (or promoting)
Belden on this little screen is not (as you can tell from my job title)
really my job. My job is to think strange thoughts and make new products. I
would GUARANTEE that in the next 20 years, you'll be using things in your
installation which you never dreamed of. And hopefully, I dreamed of them,
or one of you dreamed of them and gave me the seed from which the idea grew.
So how about some seeds? Square wire? Room-temperature super-conductive
cable? I'm open for any suggestion.
Steve Lampen
Technology Development Manager
Belden Wire & Cable Co.
www.belden.com
Our 4000-product download catalog is now on-line.
We still have AES passes available. Leave name and address at
steve....@belden.com
[ duplicate .sig removed - jmv ]
Rndmtn
Cables.
They are an example of diminishing returns. I'm never sure if the expense
for the fancy cables outweighs a "possible" marginal gain.
Well if you go by the idea that it doesn't matter, then anything might
work for you. You can run Rat Shack stuff or anything. But then, if
the copper is not 99.999 etc oxygen free, then you have the bugger of
corrosion. Some AQ wires showed some corosion that was rather
unsettling. It was similar to the stuff that comes with car speakers.
If you want something to last (good copper, teflon insulation, decent
spades) then try Kimberkable. It is priced reasonably and fair. 4TC
or 8TC are pretty good. 8TC has better bass, probably due to more
copper. Regardless of what people say, the better the gauge and the
better the copper--the better the sound should be. You might be able
to get the same amount of copper by doubling the lines.
Pay for quality. There is a definite loss as you go higher in price.
I might think about paying the bucks for silver but even then, the
diminishing returns factors seems to become more evident.
Cables for some reason seem to need break in. My ears were bleeding
for a week with Kimberkable. The bass came up noticibly. Things that
didn't shake in the room were actually rattling. (Probably due to
more copper)
Ultimately, it comes to the idea that you should try what you want.
People will have extreme opinions on cables. You should decide on
your own.
d maru
I'm fixing a hole where the rain gets in
And stops my mind from wandering
Where it will go.
--'d beatles
Marc Sorensen
How about rolling your own?
Interconnects and cables of various forms, material purity, etc.
I am not selling info nor speaking for one who is, but if anyone is
interested, I can point you in the direction to get started. The
advantage is price/performance and even a better understanding of
theory, with the right sources for information.
Copper, silver, teflon, etc...all is avialable.
(yes, I can hear a difference, sometimes, and it is rather nice to be
able to even tweak commercially available cables!)
marc
Peter Musseleck
Well now, I think it's out of the question that there is in fact a very
big difference in sound "reproduction" of cables. Anyway - if you don't
want to spend a large amount of money you may try this:
Go and get some data cable (24 wires at least, 36 is OK) and connect the
wires 1, 3, 5, ... positive and 2, 4, 6, ... negative. This makes a
cable that sounds like at least $50 / m.
Peter
Jay1Bala
How about a recommendation for a speaker calbe: Belden, Canare or
others can go
through their files and come up with a cable that they produce that
has the
shortest rise-time and lowest inductance of all...... BTW Beldon
doesnt
publish these numbers for almost all their cables... if anyone has
access to these information please let me know of the model
number for me to try out.
Jay.
My Stereo: EAR 859 SEi tube amp, Lowther PM6A speaker, Kimber Black
Pearl
silver strand cables, 2 VMPS Larger subwoofers, Townshend Elite Rock
turntable
and a Rega RB300 arm. A Quote: A good life may be long enough, but a
long life may not be good enough.