Lies about Chung Moo Doe
Todd Facello
long enough, and it's time I said something. People have accused my
martial art of being a cult, and nothing could be further from the
truth. What really imprisoned my Grandmaster was jealousy. The people
right below him were the ones that set him up. They knew that they
would never be able to achieve the great accomplishments of
Grandmaster "Iron" Kim, so they set up the tax fraud scandal which
imprisoned him.
Chung Moo Doe is one of the greatest martial arts ever created. The
history of Chung Moo Doe dates far back to the time of the Han
Dynasty. It has techniques from not one, but eight very fine martial
arts. What one art may lack, at the very least one of the others will
make up for it. Nobody has dared challenge my school openly, for they
know that our superior skills and movements will dominate them
entirely.
I ask that from this point forward, people stop mocking Chung Moo Doe,
and respect it as what it is, a very fine martial art. I will not make
fun of other arts, no matter how unskilled they may be. All I ask is
true respect for the true martial art in which I instruct and
practice.
Sincerely,
Todd Facello
2nd Degree, International System
www.chungmoodoe.com
Chas
>
> I've been reading blatantly untruthful posts mocking my martial art
> long enough, and it's time I said something.
Not bad- on a troll scale of 10; about a 6.5-6.7
--
Chas Clements
casemaker 303-364-0403
ch...@kuntaosilat.net
http://www.kuntaosilat.com/
http://chasclements.tripod.com/index.htm
hcannon18
"Todd Facello" <yinya...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9081912.02081...@posting.google.com...
Personally I like my system better - Han Me the Do.
observa
observa
Do" school of swishing hands secrets.
Alan Jeffery
1st Dan, the 2nd Dan wasn't home at the time.
"hcannon18" <hcan...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:RPD59.362615$DB.11...@news1.east.cox.net...
>
hcannon18
"observa" <obs...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
news:6HE59.3867$hk3.7...@news.xtra.co.nz...
Batman
>Todd Facello wrote:
>>
>> I've been reading blatantly untruthful posts mocking my martial art
>> long enough, and it's time I said something.
>
>Not bad- on a troll scale of 10; about a 6.5-6.7
I might bump him up a little higher, but only because i like making fun of
chung moo doe, and no one has been talking about it lately. This post may
also cause a potential CMDer to dig a little deeper before getting involved,
and save their life, so I give it a 7.9. I just can't give it an 8 unless
there is proof that someone bought it.
Or are you supposed to count off when a troll does something positive? I get
so confused.
-jeff (IH)
Matthew Weigel
>chung moo doe, and no one has been talking about it lately. This post may
>also cause a potential CMDer to dig a little deeper before getting involved,
I know a guy that kept his head when he joined a CMD class, and when
the fees got too high, he just left. I was impressed.
--
Matthew Weigel
Research Systems Programmer
mcwe...@cs.cmu.edu
Nasser
such a difficult thing, they have raised prices so much lately that its,
in my opinion, either you live/eat/breath CMD to afford it and maybe get a
little training in, or go somewhere else. Needless to say, I went
somewhere else, Tang Soo!
Nasser
Todd Facello
or mock other systems. I'm simply asking that others treat Chung Moo
Doe and it's participants in a respectful manner. I believe that
humility is at the core of martial arts, and mocking other systems
completely betrays that. If anyone has evidence of these allegations
being made against my system, I ask that they bring it forth, so we
can discuss it in a mature and straight-forward manner. I feel that if
you can't have respect for other martial artists, then your school has
failed in training your mind. I'm not asking for anyone to bow down to
me or our Grandmaster. All I'm asking for is respect, plain and
simple.
Chas
>
> I don't appreciate being called a troll.
I don't appreciate being called ugly, but there you are.
> I'm not here to cause uproar,
> or mock other systems. I'm simply asking that others treat Chung Moo
> Doe and it's participants in a respectful manner.
The combinations of ersatz history, inflated claims, and lawless
behaviour make it hard to take CMD seriously. The response that CMD
students engender is more like pity/contempt. It's like being a Jimmy
Swaggart follower- yeah; he's a preacher, but there's so much more to
consider.
> I believe that
> humility is at the core of martial arts, and mocking other systems
> completely betrays that.
That's an interesting view; who told you that?
> If anyone has evidence of these allegations
> being made against my system, I ask that they bring it forth, so we
> can discuss it in a mature and straight-forward manner.
The US Attorney seemed to do a good job of that already.
> I feel that if
> you can't have respect for other martial artists, then your school has
> failed in training your mind.
What other things did your school train your mind to accept?
> I'm not asking for anyone to bow down to
> me or our Grandmaster. All I'm asking for is respect, plain and
> simple.
Better that you don't beat your head against the wall-
MH
it was posted in two parts, so I will do the same. part 1 of 2
-----------------
Greetings, All:
This article is public domain, but many of the servers hosting it have
been disabled due to Chung Moonies who bombard the message boards in
an effort to overextend them and shut 'em down (thus preventing people
from getting the facts on Oom Yung Doe and being able to discuss 'em
with others).
Chung Moo Quan, also known as Chung Moo Doe and most recently Oom Yung
Doe, has a very dark history, including tax fraud (founder John C. Kim
and most of his top CMD aids did federal prison time for this),
assault against students, and worse. Please spread the word. Don't
lose your hard earned dollars to a school of martial art made up by an
ex-janitor whose claims to having been "ALL ASIA CHAMPION" were
debunked soundlt in court.
Take Care,
M.C. Busman
-------------------
-------------------
CHUNG MOO QUAN:
THE CULT AND THE CON
Aired November 2-7, 1989
Reporter
Pam Zekman
Producers
Sandy Bergo
Andy Segal
Laura Washington
PART ONE "CULT"
ANCHOR LEAD
There are more than 2,000 cults in the United States. But cults are
becoming more difficult to detect because they often mask their
identity behind a legitimate business or service. Channel 2's
Investigative Team has found such a group: A national chain of martial
arts schools, some of which have used mind control techniques to
intimidate and exploit believers. They teach a martial art called
"Chung Moo Quan." Pam Zekman reports on The Cult and The Con.
PAM ZEKMAN
There are ten Chung Moo Quan schools in the Chicago area and a dozen
others across the country. They were founded here in the late 1970s by
John C. Kim, a former maintenance man who promotes himself as a
martial arts master. His followers say he has supernatural powers.
CHERYL GALLO FORMER STUDENT
His powers were phenomenal. They made him seem like a god to us.
We talked to dozens of former students and instructors who've been
with Chung Moo Quan over
the past 12 years. Most of them asked us to disguise their identities.
They say they're afraid
because the schools they were at thrived on an atmosphere of
intimidation and violence.
Our investigation found that some of the schools have also exploited
students to take theirmoney
and to take over their minds. That's why experts call it a cult.
JOE SZIMHART, CULT EXPERT
It fits every single definition of a cult which I have studied.
Joe Szimhart has deprogrammed several former Chung Moo Quan students.
JOE SZIMHART
Q: And when students say they felt like they were brainwashed?
Brainwashed?
A: There is, quote, brainwashing going on in this organization.
Q: Mind control?
A: Definitely mind control.
The Cult Awareness Network studies cults and has been asked to help
several families whose
relatives were involved with Chung Moo Quan.
CYNTHIA KISSER, CULT AWARENESS NETWORK
They claim to be offering one thing, classes, and that is a front to
draw people in to exploit them
in
other ways that the people never would have consented to if they had
understood the agenda from
the beginning.
Many students are attracted to Chung Moo Quan because the training
looks impressive. The
schools say that by developing a strong mind and body, you not only
learn self-defense, but also
learn to understand yourself and find true happiness. A school
brochure says: "Chung Moo Quan
is an investment in life."
To recruit followers. Some Chung Moo Quan instructors have target
vulnerable people-- those
who are lonely, lack direction, or self esteem.
A former instructor from Minnesota says his school kept dossiers on
students with detailed
personal information.
JEFF AUSTIN, FORMER INSTRUCTOR, MINNESOTA
We looked for people's weaknesses. We would spend time in groups going
over each individual
student and determining how to best "hit their mind" as it was put.
DR. EDWIN MORSE, PSYCHOLOGIST
What happens is that they go into an altered state of consciousness.
In that type of altered state
they're very susceptible to suggestion. It's the same kind of thing
that takes place in a hypnotic
trance.
Some instructors have urged students to abandon future plans, like
college.
FORMER STUDENT
College education was discouraged. This was a much better form of
education.
This former student told his instructors that he was planning to get
married.
FORMER STUDENT
They said it was a bad idea, that a wife would only hold you back and
that she couldn't do for you
what the school could do for you.
Some instructors have alienated students from their families and
friends. then tried to fill the void
Several former students told us they were pressured to move in with
other believers.
FORMER INSTRUCTOR
Q: Why was that done?
A: They have more control over you, so you had no other outside
influences other than
through
Chung Moo Quan.
This woman was married to a student of Chung Moo Quan.
STUDENT'S EX-WIFE
They controlled everything he was doing, physically doing from the
time he woke up until the time
he went to bed.
This woman's son joined several years ago.
STUDENT'S MOTHER
Q: You feel like you've lost your son to Chung Moo Quan?
A: Oh. very much so, yes. Almost like he died.
Some Chung Moo Quan schools have exploited students financially.
Former students say they
were pressured to sign contracts and spent as much as $50,000. To get
their money, some
instructors badgered them with questions.
FORMER STUDENT
Did you have any stocks or bonds that you could sell? Do you have a
grandparent or relative with
money that would be willing to finance your black belt program?
Q: They wanted your money?
A: That's all they wanted was your money.
Followers even say Chung Moo Quan instructors have used intimidation
to keep people in line.
FORMER INSTRUCTOR
They would beat you up physically, you know, if you didn't do whatever
they wanted you to do,
whether its sign a contract or open a door or hand things with two
hands or forget to bow. They
would physically hurt you.
Some have been told that John C. Kim, the school's founder, has secret
powers.
JEFF AUSTIN
It was said that he had a lot of healing powers, that he could
essentially heal anything.
CHERYL GALLO
He had a third eye in his forehead.
Q: That explained what?
A: That he could read your mind.
FORMER INSTRUCTOR
They slowly brainwash you to the point you believe anything they tell
you.
Loyal students are promised salvation. And Chung Moo Quan has an
ominous term for those who
quit.
GREG SONBUCHNER, FORMER INSTRUCTOR, MASSACHUSETTS
And that's what they said to me when I left, is you are walking dead
PAM ZEKMAN ON SET
John C. Kim's Illinois attorney said Kim is not available for
questions. But the attorney says
Chung Moo Quan is not a cult and the idea is nonsense He says Kim is
not responsible for the
schools because they're licensed to individual owners. But if any of
the owners are doing
something wrong, he said he'll revoke their license. A spokesman for
the owners told us they are
simply a group of young businessmen trying to help people
Tonight at 10: intimidation and threats -- to some Chung Moo Quan
students and to me. And
Bill and Walter, we should say here that martial arts instructors in
the city are concerned that this
reflects on all martial arts and of course we are talking about one
chain of schools. By no means
are all martial arts schools like this. They don't approve of these
kind of tactics.
BILL KURTIS
Is it just with Chung Moo Quan? I've never heard of that before. I've
heard of Tae Kwon Do and
karate and things like that.
PAM ZEKMAN
This is a name that he has coined for his schools. He says it's eight
martial arts combined into
one, and it's the name of his schools, the name of his organization,
the Kim schools.
PART TWO "VIOLENCE"
ANCHOR LEAD
Since the mass suicide in Jonestown 11 years ago, Experts have
intensified their efforts to identify
cults and warn the public about potential dangers. Last night, the
channel 2 investigative team
disclosed that a national chain of martial arts schools is a front for
a cult. Tonight charges of
violence and intimidation at some schools of Chung Moo Quan. Pam
Zekman continues her
reports on The Cult and The Con.
PAM ZEKMAN
This is the scene from a famous martial arts movie starring Bruce Lee.
A Chicago area karate
instructor
says he was reminded of the scene when he opened a martial art's
school in suburban Woodridge
in 1982. The karate instructor says he was invited to a nearby
competing school. The school of
Chung Moo Quan, Where he was greeted by 20 students and their
instructors.
GARY COCHRAN, KARATE INSTRUCTOR
This person had so much power over these people that these people were
like robots.
Just like in the Bruce lee movie, Cochran and a friend were surrounded
by students. He says the
instructor ordered them to attack.
MOVIE
"Destroy them! Kill!
In the movie, Bruce Lee wines after fending off dozens of attackers.
In real life. the twenty to one
odds were too much for Cochran. He was beaten by the Chung Moo Quan
students and then
threatened by the instructor, who's no longer there.
GARY COCHRAN
And he said in front of all these people I promise that if you open up
your school we will kill you. ,
Q: He threatened to kill you?
A: Yes, he did.
Q: Were you scared?
A: I was terrified. Numb.
Around that time. police in several suburbs received reports of
harassment, intimidation and
beatings by Chung Moo Quan followers at some schools. This former
Chung Moo Quan
instructor
told us they were trying to put their competitors out of business.
FORMER INSTRUCTOR
We were told to hurt them and we beat them up, put them on the street
and put them in the
hospital a couple of different times.
Q: Why?
A: Because Chung Moo Quan is a superior art and they were garbage
'cause they knew
another style of martial art.
Other martial arts instructors were worried that the incidents were
giving the entire sport a bad
name. So they met with Chung Moo Quan leaders and demanded an end to
the violence.
SCOTT KIFER, USA KARATE
You know, this is not normal for a martial arts school. This is not
the way martial arts schools
operate.
The violence seemed to end. But some Chung Moo Quan schools continued
to intimidate their
own students and staff. Many of those who talk with us asked for
anonymity because they're
afraid. This former instructor says that when he quite several years
ago, the head of the school,
who's no longer there, threatened to have him kill.
FORMER INSTRUCTOR
There's a lot of people listen to every word that the higher belts say
and they'd do anything, even
kill somebody if they were told to kill somebody.
Q: Do you really think that?
A: Sure!
Cult experts are not surprised.
JOE SZIMHART, CULT EXPERT
No, it doesn't surprise me that people would act out every single
command that the management
in
Chung Moo Quan hands out, especially to the instructors because that
is how they're condition.
They're condition to behave (snaps fingers) on command.
This man remembers a chilling test of obedience given by a Chung Moo
Quan official in
Minnesota: How many would knock out a female student on command?
GREG SONBUCHNER, FORMER STUDENT, MINNESOTA
And almost everyone in this group of assistant instructors who were
looking to became instructors
raised their hand and said: Yes, I would handle that without question.
Several students at this school in suburban Glenview say they felt
intimidated when they were
asked to sign contracts and even more intimidated when they dropped
out.
Page 10
This student says that when he quit last year he turned down his
instructor's invitation to discuss
the decision at the school.
FORMER STUDENT
I mean let's not kid ourselves. They had swords and knives and spears
and all of those things are
very intimidating.
Q: You were scared to go back to the school?
A: Oh definitely
Q: Because you thought they might hurt you in some way?
A: Sure!
A student at this school near Boston say's he was hurt when he quit.
In a lawsuit, the student
charges that the instructor graded him around his windpipe and said
"How would you like to die
right now?" The school denies that anyone was assaulted. Several
students say they were told that
Chung Moo Quan was responsible for the death of Bruce Lee. Lee died in
1973 of excess fluid on
the brain that may have been caused by drugs. The Chung Moo Quan
version is that Lee was one
of their followers who divulged secrets. This former instructor says
he heard what happen to Lee
from John C. Kim, the founder of the Chung Moo Quan schools.
GREG SONBUCHNER, FORMER INSTRUCTOR, MASSACHUSETTS
And the way that it was said that he was dealt with is that a higher
belt from Asia came over, was
a seventh degree, came over and injured without touch, and that he
died later from that.
He dose not believe the story.
GREG SONBUCHNER
But what it does tell me is some very scary things about their
thoughts concerning people are what
they consider against the organization and how they would deal with
that.
John C. Kim was not available for an interview. But spokesmen for the
Illinois schools say there
was one school owner who was too forceful and that he was kicked out
several years ago.
SANTE FURIO, REGIONAL INSTRUCTOR
Since that time I don't know of any problems.
They say thousands have benefitted physically and mentally from the
schools and that Chung Moo
Quan is not a cult.
SANTE FURIO
Q: Do the schools try to intimidate students?
A: Not that I know of.
Q: I'm told by an instructor, former instructors that they're trained
to be intimidating
A: That's not true.
PAM ZEKMAN ON THE SET
But in several earlier conversations the same school officials
threaten me if I pursued my
investigation. Sante Furio said the school owners will "come after you
... they're not a gentle
group." And Nick Gallo, an attorney for the schools, said the school
owners are "rockheads, "who
act before they think." He said if I dropped the story, "They'll back
off." If I didn't, he feared an
accident is coming
PART THREE "THE CON"
ANCHOR LEAD
Some martial arts schools are apparently using illegal tactics to
recruit students. Last week the
Channel 2 Investigative Team reported on mind control techniques used
by some of the John C.
Kim Schools of Chung Moo Quan. Tonight Pam Zekman reports on financial
exploitation in
The
Cult and The Con.
PAM ZEKMAN
Chung Moo Quan schools say they teach the "true martial art." The
walls are plastered with
pictures of their Korean founder. Master John C. Kim, said to be a
ninth degree black belt. He's
on posters demonstrating Chung Moo Quan, crouching like a tiger,
soaring like an eagle, and
using his whole body as a weapon to attack. The signs declare he's the
Champion of all Asia.
Instructors say he won the title in the 1950's, but get vague about
where the competition was
held.
TOM McGEE. INSTRUCTOR
Well, in Asia. Exactly. In Asia. More a tournament in Asia. More the
champion off all Asia.
Martial arts officials from Korea say there was no such competition.
TAE HI NAM, USA TAE KWON DO FEDERATION
Q: You could not become champion of all Asia?
A: No.
Q: In the fifties?
A: No.
Q: Not possible?
A: Not possible. No.
It's hard to check the credentials of any martial arts instructor
because there are no recognized
boards in this country to approve the schools or certify their staffs.
But there are state laws to
protect students from being conned ---laws that some Chung Moo Quan
schools have apparently
violated. The law says contracts for martial arts schools cannot
charge more than $2,500 per year.
Students must be given copies of their contracts. And schools cannot
use deceptive or coercive
sales tactics. But several former Chung Moo Quan students say that
before contracts were to be
signed some instructors gave them a strenuous workouts, or humiliated
or hurt them in class. A
former instructor from Minnesota says it was deliberate.
JEFF AUSTIN, FORMER INSTRUCTOR, MINNESOTA
By the time I would get a student into the office, hopefully he's very
intimidated and willing to
accept my direction and my word on things.
Q: And your direction would be?
A: My direction would be to get him in the black belt course
A: Sign on the dotted line?
A: Yes.
He says he quit because students were being misled into believing
Chung Moo Quan was
legitimate.
JEFF AUSTIN
But the things they're doing are completely contradictory to that.
Q: What are they doing?
A: They're conning people.
Students at several schools told us they were pressured to sign
contracts for: a black belt course at
$10,000 to $15,000. the Olympic course for $15,000 to $20,000, and the
Instructor's Course
for
$20,000 to $30,000. The attorney for the schools here in Illinois says
he's surprised to hear of
such
large contracts and says he'll look into our findings.
NICK GALLO, CHUNG MOO QUAN ATTORNEY
I believe Mr. Kim would like to see all the schools comply with all
the regulations.
Gallo says it doesn't really matter what the contract's say because
they're not enforced in court.
But this student who signed a contract for $18,000 and was told just
the opposite.
FORMER STUDENT
Q: What did they say about that contract when you went to quit?
A: That you're obligated to finish off the contract. You had to pay it
off.
We talked to some students who paid the schools as much as $50,000.
They say instructors asked
then to sell their cars, deplete their savings, and give all their
extra money to pay for lessons.
This former student says his instructor suggested he get a second job
to make his payments --
$200 a week in the beginning.
FORMER STUDENT
And then near the end I would be given then my paycheck and they'd
give me money back it I
needed it.
Joe Szimhart has deprogrammed several former students.
JOE SZIMHART CULT EXPERT
The mind control in this organization has them believing that the
quicker they pay it off, the more
righteous or more direction they have within the organization. The
more loyalty they have to
Chung Moo Quan ideas. And therefore they generally drain their bank
accounts quite rapidly.
Former students say they were told to pay in cash.
GREG SONBUCHNER, FORMER INSTRUCTOR, MASSACHUSETTS
What instructors always told us was that was the best way to show
respect.
And they were told it's disrespectful to ask for copies of their
contracts.
FORMER STUDENT
I said, may I please have a copy of that? What's the matter, don't you
trust us? And far be it for
me to tell somebody who can terminate my life in two seconds. no, I
don't trust you.
A few weeks ago the schools, attorney claimed that all students get
copies of their contracts. But
later when he assembled a group of students for us to interview --
they confirmed our finding.
NICK GALLO
Q: Not a single one had gotten a copy of their contracts.
A: That's the first time I have been made aware of that practice.
Q: Does that disturb you?
A: I saw it and I am going to look into it.
We also showed him ID cards for advanced students, which say their
rank is registered with the
"Chung Moo Quan organization. Asian Headquarters." Gallo admits there
is no such
organization
NICK GALLO
Q: It doesn't exist?
A: Not that I am aware of.
Q: Is that a good idea legally, to be giving out these cards if there
is no such organization?
A: I will say this. Pam. You have brought it to my attention and I'm
going to look into it,
and I'm going to review it, and if I feel some changes are necessary,
I will make those
changes.
PAM ZEKMAN ON SET
Kim's attorney says Kim collects a fee from the schools. but says the
owners are responsible for
running them. He says that if the owners are violating any laws their
licenses will be revoked.
And when I asked why the schools demand payment in cash he said that
it was none of my
business. He asked: "Isn't that a matter for the Internal Revenue
Service?
"PART FOUR "INSTRUCTORS"
ANCHOR LEAD
A national chain of martial arts schools is exploiting its staff just
as it exploits its students. Last
week the Channel 2 Investigative Team reported that some of the
schools use intimidation and
mind control techniques. Tonight former instructors speak out for the
first time about the John
C.
Kim Schools of Chung Moo Quan. Pam Zekman reports on the tricks they
used to recruit
followers and raise cash for The Cult and The Con.
PAM ZEKMAN
Jeff Austin was a Chung Moo Quan instructor in Minnesota.
JEFF AUSTIN, FORMER INSTRUCTOR, MINNESOTA
What appealed to me about it was that financially I would be set, they
had set it up; they had
explained that financially you're set; you don't have to worry about
anything anymore.
Greg Sonbuchner was an instructor in Massachusetts.
GREG SONBUCHNER, FORMER INSTRUCTOR, MASSACHUSETTS
The problem is, is that they are convincing a lot of people to become
involved in something and
not telling them what it is.
And this man was an instructor at two schools in the Chicago suburbs.
FORMER INSTRUCTOR
It's very dangerous. They're just ruining people's lives just for
their financial gain.
Their story is one of hope and disillusion, trust and betrayal.
Looking back, they say they were
exploited by a cult and that they unwittingly helped exploit others.
They're speaking out, despite
fear of retaliation. so that others don't fall into the same trap.
They started as students, and
advanced to instructors. But getting there was expensive. This former
instructor says he spent
$50,000 on lessons. shared an apartment with other instructors, and
worked 18 hours a day -- for
no pay.
FORMER INSTRUCTOR
Q: What is it that they do that makes people do these things?
A: Just mind control, brainwashing, They would control how much you'd
sleep, even, and keep
you there late at night practicing, so you'd be more tired and more
vulnerable.
Q: And more willing to sign a huge contract?
A: Whatever they wanted.
In just two years. this instructor signed three contracts for lessons
-- the largest for $36.000. He
was about to sell his business and sign a fourth contract -- a
certificate course that cost as much as
$100,000.
JEFF AUSTIN
Q: $100,000 to get what?
A: I'm not sure. (Laughs) At that point, who cares?
He can laugh now, because he's had extensive counseling since he left
Chung Moo Quan last
March. But at the time he believed that by following the teachings of
the school founder John C.
Kim. he would have financial security and learn the secrets of life.
JEFF AUSTIN
And I was willing to do whatever it took to become a part of that
knowledge.
Instructors say they used the same tactics on now students that were
used to manipulate them
GREG SONBUCHNER
If you can convince them. hey your life is terrible; look at your job,
look at how people treat you,
look at how your wife and family are, you need to improve all of that,
and I'm going to show you
how to do it. Then that's when they got into higher courses and you
become a better instructor.
Regional and national instructors kept track of their performance,
and-not just in martial arts.
JEFF AUSTIN
My whole performance as an instructor was based on money, how much
money I was bringing in.
how much, what types of contracts I was getting people into, how fast
I was getting students to
advance.
Students advance by passing a martial arts test. While other schools
may charge one to two
hundred dollars for a black belt test, some Chung Moo Quan schools
charged one to two thousand
dollars.
JEFF AUSTIN
Q: Two thousand dollars for a test?
A: Yes.
Q: Was there something, was it a long test, a difficult test,
expensive to give?
A: (laughs) No. I don't think so. It's just one more way to get the
student to part with their
money.
Some Chung Moo Quan schools pressured students and instructors to
bring in cash gifts to show
their respect.
JEFF AUSTIN
By the time I became an instructor. I was bringing down $500 per
birthday and for Christmas for
three national instructors. one master. and whatever also came up.
Q: Do you spend $500 on your mother's birthday?
A: Absolutely not. (laughing)
Jeff left earlier this year after his parents intervened and hired a
cult expert to deprogram him.
Greg realized he should get out after a Chung Moo Quan official asked
him a frightening
question.
GREG SONBUCHNER
Are you willing to give up your life or to risk your life for the
knowledge that you can learn? You
know, and I was like, that's weird.
Q: So you now think Chung Moo Quan is what?
A: I would say it's very definitely a destructive cult.
John C. Kim was not available for comment, but his Illinois attorney,
who was once a Chung Moo
Quan student himself, says the schools provide excellent instruction
and have improved the health
of thousands of people.
NICK GALLO, CHUNG MOO QUAN ATTORNEY
Q: Is it a cult?
A: No.
Q: Are students being conned in these contracts?
A: I am unaware of any con in these contracts at this time. If there
is something that you
want
to bring to my attention, something I can review and look at, I'm more
than willing to look at
it.
PAM ZEKMAN ON SET
Gallo says he'll specifically look at whether the schools are
violating a state law that regulates
martial arts schools. Gallo says that if any schools are violating the
law he'll move to discipline the
owners and correct the problem. School officials in Minnesota and
Massachusetts did not return
our phone calls.
ANCHOR LEAD
Martial arts are an increasingly popular sport for people who want to
get in shape or learn
something about self defense. But for some Chicago area families,
martial arts have been a brutal
lesson in heartbreak. Their children enrolled in schools that teach a
style known as Chung Moo
Quan. Pam Zekman reports on what happened to one suburban youth who
got caught up in The
Cult and The Con.
PAM ZEKMAN
He was 17 when he decided to go to a neighborhood martial arts school
to learn how to protect
himself. The school is one of 10 in the Chicago area organized 12
years ago around the teachings
of John C. Kim, a so-called Korean Martial Arts Master who teaches a
style known as Chung
Moo Quan.
STUDENT'S MOTHER
My son, his entire life, all that he is, all that he will be. appears
to be owned by Chung Moo Quan.
Q: Do you think it's a cult?
A: Oh yeah, yeah. I think it's a cult.
In the beginning, his mother tried to be open-minded as she watched
her son's behavior change
radically. But like all cults -- the school drove a wedge between
them. There were fights. tears.
and then resignation that her son was lost. To warn others she agreed
to tell us his story, but asked
for anonymity.
STUDENT'S MOTHER
There is a fear that if they find us making this conversation that
they may injure our family
members or they may injure our son who is deeply in their grasp.
When her son started the lessons were inexpensive. He was a devoted
student practicing Chung
Moo Quan exercises each day. But as he progressed toward a black belt
the cost of lessons and
tests increased dramatically.
STUDENT'S MOTHER
At one point he came into the house and was trying to get a loan for
$5,000 and we're, what do
you need that for? And he says. for a test. And we said $5.000 for a
test? And he says that's
nothing; later on it'll be $15,000.
She says he was holding down 3 jobs -- turning his paychecks over to
the school and getting an
allowance from his instructor for living expenses. He moved into an
apartment with other Chung
Moo Quan students. one day his mother caught them going through her
jewelry box; and stealing
food.
STUDENT'S MOTHER
And I said if you're that hungry I'll feed you, but I really don't
want you stealing from me.
At school ceremonies, she was shocked by the demeanor of the students.
STUDENT'S MOTHER
They all seemed to have a glaze in their eyes. They all seemed
automated.
She says it went beyond the respect and discipline associated with
martial arts.
STUDENT'S MOTHER
It was like a brainwashing. His whole life was waiting for someone
else to dictate to him, what to
do. when to eat. when to move, when to breathe.
Her son once abhorred violence. Now he was obsessed with it.
STUDENT'S MOTHER
Well, he would talk about how they could do certain moves and take a
person's arm and pull it out
of its socket. He said that then you would swing it at the person
and-he said that alone would put
them in shock and you would have won the competition and I'm like --
you're talking about
dismembering people?
At one point. her son was seriously injured on the job an couldn't
walk. The doctors released him
to his mother's care, but after he talked to his Chung Moo Quan
instructor. other students came
to
her house and took her son away.
STUDENT'S MOTHER
And my son said: I made a mistake: I should not have returned to the
home of my parents...
(crying) So my husband and I argued with him, with our son and with
the people taking him out,
but there was like a wall we were arguing with, They weren't hearing
us. With the passage of
time, the injury healed. And for her son. Chung Moo Quan became a
career.
STUDENT'S MOTHER
He says, I will be making a good living when I become an instructor.
He said this is the life
process for me and I will be able to retire at 35.
Her son eventually moved to another state. where he lives with other
instructors. and teaches at a
Chung Moo Quan school.
STUDENT'S MOTHER
Q: And what do you see down the road for him?
A: I think he's trapped. I think he's stuck. I sort think he's a
prisoner.
Q: You feel like you've lost your son to Chung Moo Quan?
A: Very much so almost like he die.
PAM ZEKMAN ON THE SET
The owner of the Napierville school at the time is no longer there. A
spokesman for the schools in
Illinois denies that the schools are a cult. He says they teach
martial arts, but also encourage
discipline in young people. Keeping them off drugs and away from
crime. And he says the
exercise relieves stress and has cured health problems for many
students.
MH
---------------------------------------------------------------
Let's be honest. Founder of Chung Moo Doe / Oom Yung Doe John Chull
Kim admitted in court that Wang Po was someone he created to help
ground the system in history so students could understand it. During
his trial, it also came out that he had lied about there being an
Asian Chung Moo Doe Headquarters, having been an All-Asia Champion in
the '50's, and so on. Not an honest or honorable man. And those who
follow him...have learned by example.
Why else would he tell people that, of all things, Wang (who was found
later to have been a fabrication) was master of a style called 'Yin
Yang Do'? C'mon! There is no such style of martial art in China or
Korea (or anywhere else), only someone without an education in Chinese
philosophy or a person looking to take advantage of other's ignorance
could even propose such an absurd thing.
Chung Moo Quan instructors tell people 'Oom Yung Doe' means 'Mind Body
Way', when in fact it translates as 'Negative-Positive Way'. 'Oom
Yung' is the Korean pronounciation of 'Yin Yang', of course...and to
be honest, I've had it ~up~ the yin-yang with all the dishonest and
misleading CMD - OMD garbage out here.
What does all this mean? Oom Yung Do'ers have been conned by a con
man--John C. 'Iron' Kim. It is clear that John C. Kim and Oom Yung Doe
have No Root, and by rights, anyone who is promoted by John C. Kim in
his Pa-Doe fabricated style Has No Root.
Don't be suckered, folks. There are terrific martial arts schools out
there that charge reasonable rates ($25.00 to $80.00 a month), and low
or no testing fees for rank promotions. ~~~Don't mortgage your home to
buy a black belt in a school with NO ROOTS where the leader is a
convict who served federal prison time!!!~~~ You will be left with a
worthless piece of cloth and he will buy another house for himself!
Chung Moo Doe is a business first and foremost, and unfortunately for
the good people and teachers who get sucked in and wish it were more,
it has no basis in real martial arts. It's purpose is generating
revenue for John C. Kim and other national level instructors. The #1
goal is to make money, NOT to make your quality of life better.
National instructors in the Oom Yung Doe / Chung Moo Doe (those that
didn't leave after the tax conviction) have plenty of health problems,
despite CMD/OMD claims to improve your health and banish illness,
sickness, and heal injuries. Why does Thomas White, fellow convict
and Head National Instructor 8th dan, have knee problems? Truth be
told, Chung Moo Quan / Oom Yung Doe CAUSES health problems because
techniques are done incorrectly! You can't blame Kim since he never
studies M.A....or can you blame him? :o
Game Exposed.
Take Care,
M.C. Busman
Blanche Nonken
> There are more than 2,000 cults in the United States. But cults are
> becoming more difficult to detect because they often mask their
> identity behind a legitimate business or service.
Yeah, but didn't the word "cult" used to mean something other than
"Weird Religious Practice We Find Socially Unacceptible?
Matthew Weigel
How about- "and that has certain hallmark characteristics like taking
all of your money, forbidding contact outside the group, focusing on
weak-willed or vulnerable people, and using a combination of social
pressure and threats to control members"?
Then there's the little question of - has anyone doing CMD had their
oil checked? I mean, I can forgive a certain amount of historical, ah,
*inaccuracy* from someone who can show you what he knows. And I can
forgive someone a bit of applicable ability if they're just trying to
preserve knowledge, and can show the historical value of that
knowledge.
But to not know what you're doing, and not be able to use it... what
are you doing and why are you doing it?
and drain deez nuts
>> me or our Grandmaster. All I'm asking for is respect, plain and
>> simple.
So screw you, then...earn some.
Trav
and drain deez nuts
Chokey?
Trav
Blanche Nonken
> How is this different from Dianetics??
They don't have nifty galvanometers with tailfins?
Blanche Nonken
> Blanche Nonken <bla...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> >MH <Der...@removetheobvoiusspamblocktomail.swipnet.se> wrote:
> >
> >> There are more than 2,000 cults in the United States. But cults are
> >> becoming more difficult to detect because they often mask their
> >> identity behind a legitimate business or service.
> >
> >Yeah, but didn't the word "cult" used to mean something other than
> >"Weird Religious Practice We Find Socially Unacceptible?
>
> How about- "and that has certain hallmark characteristics like taking
> all of your money, forbidding contact outside the group, focusing on
> weak-willed or vulnerable people, and using a combination of social
> pressure and threats to control members"?
That's not a cult, that's a confidence scam. A cult is:
1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its
rites and ceremonies.
2. An instance of great veneration of a person, ideal or thing, esp. as
manifested by a body of admirers: 'the physical fitness cult.'
3. the object of such devotion.
4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing,
person, ideal, etc.
5. (Sociol.) a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites
centering around their sacred symbols.
6. a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox or extremist,
with members often living outside of conventional society under the
direction of a charismatic leader. (Note that money is not mentioned
here; strictly the socioreligious issues addressed.)
7. the members of such a religion or sect.
8. any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person
usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and
that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific.
9. of or pertainint to a cult.
10. of, for, or attracting a small group of devotees; 'a cult movie.'
So, by definitions 1, 4 and 5 I'm a member of a cult. That's fine with
me. I would sure like someone doing media broadcasting to be a little
more definitive when using the "c" word, but I suppose I'm living in a
dreamworld for wanting such a thing. Kinda like the airport thing -
it's easier to not have to think.
hcannon18
"Chas" <gryp...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3D57DC62...@attbi.com...
> Todd Facello wrote:
> >
> > I don't appreciate being called a troll.
>
> I don't appreciate being called ugly, but there you are.
>
> > I'm not here to cause uproar,
> > or mock other systems. I'm simply asking that others treat Chung Moo
> > Doe and it's participants in a respectful manner.
>
> The combinations of ersatz history, inflated claims, and lawless
> behaviour make it hard to take CMD seriously. The response that CMD
> students engender is more like pity/contempt. It's like being a Jimmy
> Swaggart follower- yeah; he's a preacher, but there's so much more to
> consider.
Did you know Jerry Lee Lewis was his cousin?
>
> > I believe that
> > humility is at the core of martial arts, and mocking other systems
> > completely betrays that.
>
> That's an interesting view; who told you that?
The tooth fairy of course. Did you have to ask?
>
> > If anyone has evidence of these allegations
> > being made against my system, I ask that they bring it forth, so we
> > can discuss it in a mature and straight-forward manner.
>
> The US Attorney seemed to do a good job of that already.
Must be those techniques - ya know - steal the do, grab the do, rob the do,
abscond with the do, overcharge the do. Need some new techniques like earn
the do.
>
> > I feel that if
> > you can't have respect for other martial artists, then your school has
> > failed in training your mind.
>
> What other things did your school train your mind to accept?
Uh oh.
>
> > I'm not asking for anyone to bow down to
> > me or our Grandmaster. All I'm asking for is respect, plain and
> > simple.
>
> Better that you don't beat your head against the wall-
>
> -- Double uh oh. This guy does not know you at all does he. just funning.
hcannon18
"Matthew Weigel" <mcwe...@cs.cmu.edu> wrote in message
news:aj95jr$on3$1...@cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu...
> Blanche Nonken <bla...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> >MH <Der...@removetheobvoiusspamblocktomail.swipnet.se> wrote:
> >
> >> There are more than 2,000 cults in the United States. But cults are
> >> becoming more difficult to detect because they often mask their
> >> identity behind a legitimate business or service.
> >
> >Yeah, but didn't the word "cult" used to mean something other than
> >"Weird Religious Practice We Find Socially Unacceptible?
>
> How about- "and that has certain hallmark characteristics like taking
> all of your money, forbidding contact outside the group, focusing on
> weak-willed or vulnerable people, and using a combination of social
> pressure and threats to control members"?
That's not a cult that is my wife.
>
> Then there's the little question of - has anyone doing CMD had their
> oil checked? I mean, I can forgive a certain amount of historical, ah,
> *inaccuracy* from someone who can show you what he knows. And I can
> forgive someone a bit of applicable ability if they're just trying to
> preserve knowledge, and can show the historical value of that
> knowledge.
>
> But to not know what you're doing, and not be able to use it... what
> are you doing and why are you doing it?
Sounds like a wedding.
Matthew Weigel
>> How about- "and that has certain hallmark characteristics like taking
>> all of your money, forbidding contact outside the group, focusing on
>> weak-willed or vulnerable people, and using a combination of social
>> pressure and threats to control members"?
>
>That's not a cult, that's a confidence scam. A cult is:
I was referring to mind-control groups, whether religious, spiritual,
or neither.
I guess it can be called a confidence scam too.
>1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its
>rites and ceremonies.
>4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing,
>person, ideal, etc.
>5. (Sociol.) a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites
>centering around their sacred symbols.
>So, by definitions 1, 4 and 5 I'm a member of a cult. That's fine
>with me. I would sure like someone doing media broadcasting to be a
>little more definitive when using the "c" word,
They are... they almost never use the term cult in any of those ways.
There are plenty of other terms for those, but there aren't many words
for the kind of cult being discussed. "Confidence scam" is a bit
generic for this too, so it actually helps communication if a word gets
pulled into single duty on this idea.
The word itself is, indeed, neutral... sort of like calling a Chinese
martial art "wushu." The fact of the matter, based upon the people that
use the term, tends to be different from that neutrality.
>but I suppose I'm living in a dreamworld for wanting such a thing.
>Kinda like the airport thing - it's easier to not have to think.
Eh? Where is this "not thinking," by using the term cult in a specific
way? I mean, you can't mean all 10 definitions in any particular
usage, many of them contradict each other... and it enhances
communication when the number of definitions used in any particular
context is low.
Batman
<aj7gft$bsp$1...@cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu>:
>Batman <bat...@batcave.edu> wrote:
>
>>chung moo doe, and no one has been talking about it lately. This post
>>may also cause a potential CMDer to dig a little deeper before getting
>>involved,
>
>I know a guy that kept his head when he joined a CMD class, and when
>the fees got too high, he just left. I was impressed.
Cool. Were you .. err i mean this theoretical 'friend' warned beforehand? Or
was something that could just be chalked up to general awareness and a well
maintained bullshit detector?
-jeff (IH)
Batman
>Todd Facello wrote:
>>
>> I don't appreciate being called a troll.
>
>I don't appreciate being called ugly, but there you are.
Chas, you were arrested for being ugly. There's no denying it. When you fill
out a job application, you have to tell them about your problems with the ugly
laws. I think you'll be happier if you just learn to accept the facts.
>> I'm not here to cause uproar,
>> or mock other systems. I'm simply asking that others treat Chung Moo
>> Doe and it's participants in a respectful manner.
no.
>> I believe that
>> humility is at the core of martial arts, and mocking other systems
>> completely betrays that.
>
>That's an interesting view; who told you that?
what view is that? the view that CMD is a martial art?
>> If anyone has evidence of these allegations
>> being made against my system, I ask that they bring it forth, so we
>> can discuss it in a mature and straight-forward manner.
>
>The US Attorney seemed to do a good job of that already.
Oh, but didn't you read his original post, that was all manufactured by the
other jealous CMD teachers. See, they have a form that can teach you how to
manipulate the justice system. Its normally taught at the 5th dan level, but,
since you need it now, pay me $25,000 ... just to show that you are a serious
student ... and I'll go ahead and teach it to you now.
>> I feel that if
>> you can't have respect for other martial artists, then your school has
>> failed in training your mind.
>
>What other things did your school train your mind to accept?
That its not rape (not even stautory) if its your intructor and you do it in
the school, cause legally speaking, he is the supreme ruler inside the dojo
and his authority has been recognized by the supreme court to do everything
from performing marriages, to carrying out capital punishment sentences.
Of course, rule #1 is, always pay on time.
>> I'm not asking for anyone to bow down to
>> me or our Grandmaster. All I'm asking for is respect, plain and
>> simple.
>
>Better that you don't beat your head against the wall-
Why, do you feel its your right to beat thier heads against the wall?
-jeff (IH)
Matthew Weigel
>Cool. Were you .. err i mean this theoretical 'friend' warned
>beforehand?
Haha. Not me, a guy I met at a party. I mentioned I was a martial
artist, he said "wow, I used to do Chung Moo Doe." I tried to not say
anything really belligerent, but kept on talking, and a couple minutes
later he said, "and gosh am I glad I got out of that place. It got too
expensive, and when I talked about quitting they gave me a lot of shit;
after I left I came across a lot of scary shit online about them."
Been trying to get together with him and show him something a bit more,
ah, reasonable, about martial arts.
>Or was something that could just be chalked up to general awareness
>and a well maintained bullshit detector?
I think it was the fact that he works as a librarian and didn't want to
start selling smack to pay the fees.
Kirk Lawson
Dianetics has Travolta and some other famous people. Who does CMD have?
Peace favor your sword (IH)
--
"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or
knowledge of their use."
-Achille Marozzo, 1536
--
"...it's the nature of the media and the participants. A herd of martial
artists gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."
-Chas Speaking of rec.martial-arts
Karen Nagai
The mention of Chung Moo Doe sets off alarms among
lots of martial arts practitioners.
I'm not here to cause uproar,
>or mock other systems. I'm simply asking that others treat Chung Moo
>Doe and it's participants in a respectful manner. I believe that
>humility is at the core of martial arts, and mocking other systems
>completely betrays that.
Atmosphere here ranges from afternoon tea to a Saturday
night kegger. And everything is fair game. That's one
of the uses of Usenet. Everything is fair game. Besides,
I don't think humility is at the core of martial arts...
I think fighting is at the core. We're talking belligerents
here - folks who practice fighting.
If anyone has evidence of these allegations
>being made against my system, I ask that they bring it forth, so we
>can discuss it in a mature and straight-forward manner. I feel that if
>you can't have respect for other martial artists, then your school has
>failed in training your mind. I'm not asking for anyone to bow down to
>me or our Grandmaster. All I'm asking for is respect, plain and
>simple.
"...training your mind?"
"...bow down to me...?"
Quick, anything archived? Anyone?
karen
>
>Sincerely,
>Todd Facello
>2nd Degree, International System
--
Phillip Inoy
Oh Christ, Come off it already!!!
Todd, I have sympathy for what you are trying to accomplsh here. You
want respect for what you believe to be a legitimate system. Yet,
let's face facts.
First, the founder of the system OPENLY ADMITTED to LYING in court
about the systems lineage and where he learned his material.
At best, he is yet another Korean who figured out that there are many
weak minded, under-educated Americans who are easy pickings for this
kind of thing. As a Korean American I am rather ashamed of John C.
Kim. He is an opportunist AT BEST and a shameful McDojo runner at
WORST! This kind of practice has no place in the martial arts. All
this man really knows is Tae Kwon Do or Tang Soo Do. He knows little
else as I will demonstrate later in this post.
Todd, because you are a martial artist and I'm sure you train very
hard, this is one redeeming factor about Chung Moo Quan, I consider
you at least a friend.
And, as that friend, I feel the need to tell you about the falsity of
some of the stuff your practicing.
I know one Rocky Richardson, a former Mc Dojo owner under John Kim. He
lives in Osseo, Minnesota. I met him because he left J.Kim and became
a student of Park Bok Nam. Rocky is a big man and I can tell he took
part in some of the intimidation tactics. I called PBN a few months
ago and spoke with him about Rocky Richardson, his reply is that Rocky
is still a firm beginner and that his "bagua" time with John Kim
didn't help him one iota. Rocky is reasonably good in TKD, but
frankly, I wouldn't send anyone to him. There are loads better
artists.
2 things about John Kim's bagua:
1) It is NOT bagua. Any bagua lineage master will tell you that at
BEST John Kim read a book and couldn't figure it out. I have further
crossed hands with several students in Chung Moo Doe in a bagua
setting and it quickly became a teaching session. From Me, to them.
2) He is not in the least familiar with internal arts as he has
studied with no one of any repute or skill in the IMA circle.
Todd, I met John Kim in Illinois, and as a fellow Korean I can say
that he is quite good at the old, Choi Hong Hi-military system version
of Taekwon Do. He knows precious little else.
Todd, where do you currently live? I can help you find a real internal
arts practitioner in your area as well as someone with real Tae Kwon
Do expertise.
If you want other chinese arts like shuai jiao, xing yi, long fist and
anything else I will help you find it.
One thing I know about Chung Moo do practitioners is that they train
hard. It may not be the right way or the right materials, but you do
train hard.
If you wish it I will help you. Please email me off line with your
interests.
I offer this in the interest of helping a brother in these arts move
forward in skill and expertise without the difficulties associated
with Chung Moo Do.
Good Luck, I wish you the best!
Phillip J. Inoy