TB Tropez Plus Evaluation Comments...
John Brand
Here follows my initial views:
Set-up:
Easy enough on my Plug and Play motherboard. Auto everthing. it just
started win95 twice? Maybe I pushed a wrong button somewhere. The Cable
that came with for CD rom is a SONY style and worked. The Joystick port
is excellent, much better tuned than my PAS16 (which didn't know about
pentiums etc) using the same joystick.
Wavetable:
The wavetable sounds very, very good, and when compared to my friend's
AWE32, he was very very jealous. I only know this now, but the patch
sets for some instruments are a little shaky. Someone on the newsgroups
pointed this our to me, and now I notice it quite badly. Let's say you
play a piano, the you move up a few notes, it becomes a littel louder
and then a littel softer at the patch transistion point carrying on like
that. This is claimed not to be the case on the Ensoniq, Roland and
Yahama boards. However my criteria was a good oatch set with sample
store, which very few cards offer together with all my other things on
the checklist. MIDI files are very good escpecially the demo ones that
came with the Tropez+. I'm glad I bought the card.
Digital Audio:
The sound is clear and crisp and has almost NO noise. I tried sampling
and that was very quiet. I don't have the equip to give it a full test.
I'll leave it up to the experts. The digital editor is quite good. Wave
SE II. This is not a 32-bit app yet. In fact not any of the apps are for
win95 yet.
Sample Store:
The Tropez Plus control panel is a mess. It takes forever to start
(every time) and it consistantly crashes once per session on my win95
(pentium 133) machine, at least. Everything from MIDI is then disabled.
I only wish I knew of a way to RESET the MIDI side or even the whole
sound card from win95 apart from restarting it (win95). I have also
found that the setupsnd is not always required for General MIDI, so I
leave it out of my autoexec and no problems so far.
I tried the Tropez with a program called Awave (shareware messed up
completely) and that has a special program to interface into the 16-bit
WFGATE.DLL (David I thought you said Native drivers!) This DLL is
probably the cause of all my hassles. Although, Awave only takes long
the first time I start it. Not the second and Third. Another question
for David: How do I access the 7 drum sets, or are all the 7 sets
crammed into the one channel 10. Awave has a great interface, Maybe its
time that I write one like it for the Tropez. the only question is where
do we get a 32-bit DLL and the calls to it???? David (again???) Of all
the features, the Tropez Control Panel really sucks!
Games:
Need for Speed has an MSS option but the detection will not work, only
sound blaster pro is working. This is not good, because Need for speed
uses digital streaming and the audio is passed from the cdrom throught
the sound card is 16-bits. I know this from my PAS16 previously which
sounded great. Now its all crunchy (8-bit) and noisy. What now!!! The
setup simply refuses. Even tried DOS mode? Anyone?
Decent 2, Duke Nukem 3D, Warcraft II all work great without the setupsnd
program, on General MIDI. Decent and Duke do not have MSS as an option,
a real pity. In fact I am quite surprised of the fact that recent games
don't support this standard: Wing Commander IV???? Luckily I'm not too
worried because the DirectSound drivers for Windows 95 will eliminate
incompatibilities of sound cards. Games will just work without setup,
like another guy said, you'll just start wondering how the game knew
your card....hehe it didn't. It asked DirectSound for a sound device and
got it.
(David G, I didn't think that DirectSound would make the game faster or
differ from card to card, but more interested to know IF the driver is
in the works, to allow games just to use it. I don't even think it needs
one because the default DirectSound driver is probably good enough. It
was the DirectMusic driver I was concerned about......I know its new and
the specs are brand new, but I hope it will be there when Internet apps
and games want to use it!)
Prospecting buyers....this was for you!
--
John Brand
email: joh...@hipsys.co.za
"A dim light brightens..."
My opinions are solely my own and NOT my company's!
James L. Triplett
>I recently got my Tropez Plus, FINALLY.
>Here follows my initial views:
>Need for Speed has an MSS option but the detection will not work, only
>sound blaster pro is working. This is not good, because Need for speed
>uses digital streaming and the audio is passed from the cdrom throught
>the sound card is 16-bits. I know this from my PAS16 previously which
>sounded great. Now its all crunchy (8-bit) and noisy. What now!!! The
>setup simply refuses. Even tried DOS mode? Anyone?
>
Any luck getting XCOM to work?
David Gasior
>The wavetable sounds very, very good, and when compared to my friend's
>AWE32, he was very very jealous.
Have you heard the AWE32's wavetable? It is not much better than FM synthesis.
>I'll leave it up to the experts. The digital editor is quite good. Wave
>SE II. This is not a 32-bit app yet. In fact not any of the apps are for
>win95 yet.
WaveSE is a 16bit application, though it runs in both Windows95 and WindowsNT.
>The Tropez Plus control panel is a mess. It takes forever to start
>(every time) and it consistantly crashes once per session on my win95
I have yet to have it crash.
>I tried the Tropez with a program called Awave (shareware messed up
>completely) and that has a special program to interface into the 16-bit
>WFGATE.DLL (David I thought you said Native drivers!)
WFGATE.DLL is not a driver. It is a library of code that programs can use. It
cannot be 32bit unless the Control Panel and WavePatch both were rewritten to
be 32bit.
>(David G, I didn't think that DirectSound would make the game faster or
>differ from card to card, but more interested to know IF the driver is
>in the works, to allow games just to use it. I don't even think it needs
>one because the default DirectSound driver is probably good enough. It
>was the DirectMusic driver I was concerned about......I know its new and
>the specs are brand new, but I hope it will be there when Internet apps
>and games want to use it!)
I am waiting for a response from Crystal regarding DirectSound drivers for the
CS4232 chipset. At this time, we have no plans to support DirectMusic.
David A Gasior
dav...@tbeach.com
Turtle Beach Systems
Jeff Glatt
>>AWE32, he was very very jealous.
>Have you heard the AWE32's wavetable? It is not much better than FM synthesis.
I *have* heard the AWE32's wavetable synth. It *is* better than the FM
synthesis... a lot better. Mind you, I should note that I'm a
professional musician and in comparing the AWE32 to some of the pro
equipment that I use, it may sound like a toy. But then, we're talking
about some *major* differences in price; 10-fold typically. I should
also note that I placed the Roland RAP-10 and SC-7 in the same
computer, and found the Roland waveform set to be noticeably more
pleasing than the AWE32. Yes, I feel that there are better sounding
computer cards, and definitely better sounding external MIDI gear.
But David's statement above is what I consider to be excessive
criticism of the AWE32, and I don't consider it to be accurate. It
should also be noted that David is a Turtle Beach employee, and TB is
CL's biggest competitor.
Furthermore, there are some aspects of the CL cards that may be
important assets to certain consumers, for example, good game support.
For the record, I don't own a CL card. I don't play many games, and I
like the Roland waveform set and performance (ie, it handles MIDI much
better than many other cards), so I bought a RAP-10. I use it mostly
for incidental musical parts, and also as a MIDI interface to my
external gear which is used for my primary sound sources
Jeff Glatt
>worried because the DirectSound drivers for Windows 95 will eliminate
>incompatibilities of sound cards. Games will just work without setup,
>(David G, I didn't think that DirectSound would make the game faster or
>differ from card to card, but more interested to know IF the driver is
>in the works, to allow games just to use it. I don't even think it needs
>one because the default DirectSound driver is probably good enough. It
>was the DirectMusic driver I was concerned about......I know its new and
>the specs are brand new, but I hope it will be there when Internet apps
>and games want to use it!)
You understand that apps have to be written to use DirectSound? You
can't just get DirectSound drivers and expect them to be used by apps
that don't even know about the existance of such.
It will be a little ways off... but none too soon
David Gasior
>>Have you heard the AWE32's wavetable? It is not much better than FM
synthesis.
>But David's statement above is what I consider to be excessive
>criticism of the AWE32, and I don't consider it to be accurate. It
>should also be noted that David is a Turtle Beach employee, and TB is
>CL's biggest competitor.
It is not excessive criticism at all. The 1meg set on the AWE32 is not very
good, in my opinion. I put an AWE32 and a Tropez Plus in the same system, and
played several MIDI files on the AWE32's FM synthesis, EMU synthesis, and then
the Tropez Plus's wavetable synthesis. The sound coming from the AWE32 was
very close when playing in its too formats. Obviously, the wavetable will be a
better choice, but not my much. It is far closer to their FM than it is to our
WaveFront chip, and that is sad considering they are using EMU sounds.
And we are Creative's biggest competitor? Wow, thanks.
Komsomol
>Have you heard the AWE32's wavetable? It is not much better than FM
>synthesis.
>
>It is not excessive criticism at all. The 1meg set on the AWE32 is not very
>good, in my opinion. I put an AWE32 and a Tropez Plus in the same system, and
>played several MIDI files on the AWE32's FM synthesis, EMU synthesis, and then
>the Tropez Plus's wavetable synthesis. The sound coming from the AWE32 was
>very close when playing in its too formats. Obviously, the wavetable will be a
>better choice, but not my much. It is far closer to their FM than it is to our
>WaveFront chip, and that is sad considering they are using EMU sounds.
>
Of course thats your opinion. While the AWE's ROM isn't very good, IMHO (and
many others) the ICS wavefront is only marginally better, and in fact isn't very
good either. Quite an accomplishment for a ROM which is 4X larger than the AWE!
It's interesting that you would choose to publicly attack the AWE's ROM, when
the Tropez+ ROM isn't anything to be very proud of either.
Of course, on an AWE you can install a daughterboard and get great wavetable
sound. That isn't an option when you buy the Tropez+ and realize that it, like
the AWE, has a pretty poor wavetable.
At least EMU knows how properly match a multisample, something its obvious that
the developer of the Wavefront was clueless about! TB's the only company I know
of which stepped backwards in regards to their wavetable ROM, moving from the
pretty good Proteus based ROMs in the old cards to the dreadful Wavefront in the
newer cards.
K
Jeff Glatt
>>>Have you heard the AWE32's wavetable? It is not much better than FM
>synthesis.
>>But David's statement above is what I consider to be excessive
>>criticism of the AWE32, and I don't consider it to be accurate. It
>>should also be noted that David is a Turtle Beach employee, and TB is
>>CL's biggest competitor.
>It is not excessive criticism at all.
I think that it is. I think that the wavetable is noticeably much
better than the FM synthesis, contrary to what you say above.
>The 1meg set on the AWE32 is not very good, in my opinion.
I think that it would sound good to a game player's ears. On the other
hand, people who are accustomed to using pro MIDI gear, or who have
very discerning ears, may not feel that the AWE32 is for them. (I
don't. But at least I've put that into what I consider to be a
reasonable perspective. In fact, many game players do seem to like the
AWE32, quite a bit judging by what I've heard. The people who don't
like it tend to favor more expensive pro gear and fancier cards, like
me).
>I put an AWE32 and a Tropez Plus in the same system, and
>played several MIDI files on the AWE32's FM synthesis, EMU synthesis, and then
>the Tropez Plus's wavetable synthesis. The sound coming from the AWE32 was
>very close when playing in its too formats.
Are you sure that you were actually listening to the wavetable
portion? I heard a much more pronounced difference.
>And we are Creative's biggest competitor? Wow, thanks.
Well, I've been told that the GUS is the biggest seller behind CL
cards, but I see more of TB stuff than the GUS.
Actually, given TB's preoccupation with chasing after the game market
with SB compatibilty, I'd say that TB is more than just CL's biggest
competitor. I'd say that TB wants to be CL
John Brand
Jeff Glatt wrote:
>
> >Luckily I'm not too
> >worried because the DirectSound drivers for Windows 95 will eliminate
> >incompatibilities of sound cards. Games will just work without setup,
>
> >differ from card to card, but more interested to know IF the driver is
> >in the works, to allow games just to use it. I don't even think it needs
> >one because the default DirectSound driver is probably good enough. It
> >was the DirectMusic driver I was concerned about......I know its new and
> >the specs are brand new, but I hope it will be there when Internet apps
> >and games want to use it!)
>
> can't just get DirectSound drivers and expect them to be used by apps
> that don't even know about the existance of such.
>
> It will be a little ways off... but none too soon
In a previous post Jeff Glatt wrote:
> And would developers rather write one set of sound routines (using one
> set of *published* documentation that is available from MS) that will
> work with every sound card made (and work well too because the app
> uses the manufacturer's driver which will no doubt take care of any
> pecularities of a particular card which you now do not have to worry
> about), or continue hunting for oddball, usually incomplete
> development kits for every single sound card on the market and writing
> a set of sound routines for every card that you want to support
Well your two statements don't fully come from the same Jeff? or do
they?
Forget Standards, DirectX will blurr the definition of the hardware
layer. All those guys that are true believers (actually fanatics) in GUS
and SB will fade into the background when Quality will win over
compatibility (This has to be the truth!).
There are a LOT of titles that will be DirectX windows 95 games in
future (I am trying to locate the URL for that page again). Wing
Commander V
will be a Windows 95 game ONLY, to mention but one in the Interplay
stable.
People forget that the Windows95 Games freeze windows and give full CPU
access to the game. The only way to escape is to press CTRL+ALT+DEL or
the
ESC key for the game (or by simply quitting from the game menu). Only
then can you get back to Windows95. This is what game dev. wants: CPU,
Hardware independency.
Don't forget to include DirectMusic in the list. This will provide
Internet and games with download featuers to RAM on soundboards so that
the music can become more interactive that the GM standard. The Internet
web page will download all the samples required and then upload them
through DirectMusic into the RAM on the card. Then the music can play
with very little CPU usage, probably much less than from the CD itself.
This is equally true for games.
I am planning on getting into the Direct scene to write apps for Win95
and possibly a little game or screen saver or something.
Check out Microsoft's web page for Interactive technologies:
http://www.microsoft.com/mediadev/icont.htm
This includes things like speech generation and recognition,
video playback stuff. DirectSound3D will include support for
psychoaucoustic sound with 3D vectors
(like SRS http://www.srslabs.com/ Old Arnold just turned 70)
Enjoy the Vision and Sound....
Hey David? How about getting some dev. info my way to start writing
interfaces into software! Maybe even my own Tropez+ Control Panel.
I think the AWE32 has a better (and ludicrously faster) Control Panel
than the Tropez+. PLEASE SOMEONE OUT THERE HELP ME HAVE A FASTER ONE!
Vince Vu
dga...@ix.netcom.com (David Gasior) writes:
>It is not excessive criticism at all. The 1meg set on the AWE32 is not very
>good, in my opinion. I put an AWE32 and a Tropez Plus in the same system, and
I agree. It is not very good. But then again it is *only* 1meg. It's
pretty damn hard to fit 128 instruments and 51 drums into 1MB at 16-bit.
It's apples and oranges. You're compareing the AWE32's 1MB ROM to
tropez+'s 4MB ROM.
I've never heard the tropez+, but just from the rom size, I'm sure it
sounds better.
Now if you compare it with E-mu's 4MB GM/GS bank or 8MB GM/GS bank, then
that's a different story.
>better choice, but not my much. It is far closer to their FM than it is to our
>WaveFront chip, and that is sad considering they are using EMU sounds.
The way you state this, it sounds like you are inferring the synthesis
chip is inferior because the ROM is only 1MB. I'm sure you are aware of
the limitations of the ICS chip compared to the EMU8000.
Ron Christian x5545
In article <31D780...@hipsys.co.za> John Brand <joh...@hipsys.co.za> writes:
>There are a LOT of titles that will be DirectX windows 95 games in
>future (I am trying to locate the URL for that page again). Wing
>Commander V
>will be a Windows 95 game ONLY, to mention but one in the Interplay
>stable.
<cough> That's what they said about Wing Commander IV... When it came out
it was more like: "Works with Win95" and in tiny letters "Requires a DOS boot".
We'll see.
Ron
--
"The rules require action. The rules do not require results."
-- Pournell
Jhana Brown
>Here follows my initial views:
>Need for Speed has an MSS option but the detection will not work, only
>sound blaster pro is working. This is not good, because Need for speed
>uses digital streaming and the audio is passed from the cdrom throught
>the sound card is 16-bits. I know this from my PAS16 previously which
>sounded great. Now its all crunchy (8-bit) and noisy. What now!!! The
>setup simply refuses. Even tried DOS mode? Anyone?
Have you tried typing TBSWSS, see page 46 of your users manual, at the DOS
prompt prior to executing the games that aren't accurately detecting MSS (or
Win3.X's WSS)? This *only* applies to a few DOS games. Think of it as a
'wake-up' call to the MSS part of the card.
Jhana M. Brown (jh...@crystalake.com)
CrystaLake Multimedia, Inc.
Visit CrystaLake's WWW site at http://www.crystalake.com
"There's magic in the web of it. . ." -William Shakespeare
Jason Dean Malone
jgl...@servtech.com (Jeff Glatt) wrote:
>>>>Have you heard the AWE32's wavetable? It is not much better than FM
>>synthesis.
>
>>>But David's statement above is what I consider to be excessive
>>>criticism of the AWE32, and I don't consider it to be accurate. It
>>>should also be noted that David is a Turtle Beach employee, and TB is
>>>CL's biggest competitor.
>
>
>better than the FM synthesis, contrary to what you say above.
Not by much. Compare the drum sets and strings from the AWE-32
to any OPL-3 board, they don't sound much better. Yes, i realize
that the AWE-32 only has a lousy 1 MB ROM, but CL is charging
230$+ for this 1 Mbyte card?!??? No thank you.
Lunde
I think people would agree that the DAC on the tropez+ is superior to the DAC
on the AWE plus the AWE is just an all around noisier card. I think the use
of ROM to store sound samples is just plain dumb for new cards. It was ok a
couple years ago but ram is so cheap now it doesn't make since to build ROM on
the card. I like the tropez+ but I don't want to pay for the 4 meg of ROM and
then buy 8 megs of Ram (because I want that ability to add my own samples) and
never use the ROM. Enough said, I can't wait for all of the DirectX standards
to be released in full (like directsound, directmusic, directsound3d). That
will be the day to buy a soundcard; the best soundcard will be the one that
produces the best sound...not the one that is *more* SB compatible than the
others.
David Gasior
In article <4r7ag3$f...@murphy2.servtech.com>, jgl...@servtech.com says...
>I think that it would sound good to a game player's ears. On the other
>hand, people who are accustomed to using pro MIDI gear, or who have
>very discerning ears, may not feel that the AWE32 is for them. (
But isn't that the point of buying an expensive card like the AWE32, to get
good MIDI quality closer to professional? You can buy a "game card" for a heck
of a lot less.
>Actually, given TB's preoccupation with chasing after the game market
>with SB compatibilty, I'd say that TB is more than just CL's biggest
>competitor. I'd say that TB wants to be CL
No, we don't want to be CL; we enjoyed showing a profit this quarter. =)
David Gasior
In article <jdreddDt...@netcom.com>, jdr...@netcom.com says...
>I agree. It is not very good. But then again it is *only* 1meg. It's
>pretty damn hard to fit 128 instruments and 51 drums into 1MB at 16-bit.
Ensoniq does a good job of it. =) And while I understand why they do it, I
think a 1meg ROM on their top of the line card is not a quality choice.
>The way you state this, it sounds like you are inferring the synthesis
>chip is inferior because the ROM is only 1MB. I'm sure you are aware of
>the limitations of the ICS chip compared to the EMU8000.
The ICS chip is hardly the best wavetable synth on the market. But for the
price, it is very good. The EMU set is not inferior because of the size, but
because of how it sounds. While that is directly related to the size of the
ROM, there is more than that. And I think that a comparison between the Tropez
Plus 4meg set and the AWE32 1meg set is fair, because they are direct
competitors. If Creative Labs finds that wavetable set as good enough to be on
their top of the line sound card, then they are going to have to expect
similarly designed sound cards/price range to be compared with it. It is not
our fault we provide a 4meg set at the same price as CL.
John Brand
Lunde wrote:
> I think people would agree that the DAC on the tropez+ is superior to the DAC
> on the AWE plus the AWE is just an all around noisier card. I think the use
> of ROM to store sound samples is just plain dumb for new cards. It was ok a
> couple years ago but ram is so cheap now it doesn't make since to build ROM on
> the card. I like the tropez+ but I don't want to pay for the 4 meg of ROM and
> then buy 8 megs of Ram (because I want that ability to add my own samples) and
> never use the ROM. Enough said, I can't wait for all of the DirectX standards
> to be released in full (like directsound, directmusic, directsound3d). That
> will be the day to buy a soundcard; the best soundcard will be the one that
> produces the best sound...not the one that is *more* SB compatible than the
> others.
Way to go (read my other post)
Quality MUST prevail over compatibility!!!
John Brand
compared it to my friend's AWE32, I merely did it for someone out there
who thought I was an idiot comparing datasheets with datasheets before
listeing to the product. I am just glad I have what I wanted and that it
works great (up to certain points of frustration)
Oh, by the way does CL stand for Crystal Lake or Creative Labs?
I think Crystal Lake makes a very good product. If they had RAM, I
would've bought it possibly.
John Brand
> >Here follows my initial views:
> >Need for Speed has an MSS option but the detection will not work, only
> >sound blaster pro is working. This is not good, because Need for speed
> >uses digital streaming and the audio is passed from the cdrom throught
> >the sound card is 16-bits. I know this from my PAS16 previously which
> >sounded great. Now its all crunchy (8-bit) and noisy. What now!!! The
> >setup simply refuses. Even tried DOS mode? Anyone?
>
> prompt prior to executing the games that aren't accurately detecting MSS (or
> Win3.X's WSS)? This *only* applies to a few DOS games. Think of it as a
> 'wake-up' call to the MSS part of the card.
>
only, and WIN95, no joy.
ALSO, DukeNukem 3D places my GM MIDI mode in such a state that it
becomes inoperable when returning to windows after playing the game.
Then I have to restart to even play a MIDI file. NOT NICE!!!!!!!
Bob Chalfin
> >Here follows my initial views:
> >Need for Speed has an MSS option but the detection will not work, only
> >sound blaster pro is working. This is not good, because Need for speed
> >uses digital streaming and the audio is passed from the cdrom throught
> >the sound card is 16-bits. I know this from my PAS16 previously which
> >sounded great. Now its all crunchy (8-bit) and noisy. What now!!! The
> >setup simply refuses. Even tried DOS mode? Anyone?
>
> prompt prior to executing the games that aren't accurately detecting MSS (or
> Win3.X's WSS)? This *only* applies to a few DOS games. Think of it as a
> 'wake-up' call to the MSS part of the card.
>
> CrystaLake Multimedia, Inc.
> Visit CrystaLake's WWW site at http://www.crystalake.com
> "There's magic in the web of it. . ." -William Shakespeare
The other problem could be that the card is not configured with the correct I/O address for WSS.
By default, the Tropez Plus is set up at 0534, but in every game that I've seen that actually
even supports WSS mode, 0534 is not a valid I/O option in the game's setup for WSS, rather 0530
is an option (and usually the default). For this reason, I have been unable to get the Tropez
Plus to work in WSS mode in any game (well, it works, but sound is sped up to Alvin & the
Chipmunks levels!). The only way I know for sure to change the configuration of the Tropez Plus
for WSS mode is by editing the TBSDOS.INI file, where the WSS I/O is set, but then Win95 doesn't
use this config file (hence its name). Sure it will work for a game ran in DOS mode using WSS,
after executing the TBSWSS command, but what about a game ran under Windows? Seems to me you
still need to get the Tropez Plus set up there for WSS using 0530 or one of the other common
options given, but it's not 0534, and I have yet to figure out how to change this. I have 0530
through 0532 available per Device Mgr., but Win95 won't let me reconfigure the "Tropez Plus PnP
Audio Hardware" item (which is the item under which the resources for SB, WSS, etc. are shown and
supposedly set) under Device Mgr. from its current 0534 (actually, it uses 0534-7) to 0530 as
needed.
Also, is MSS = WSS. I don't know. There used to be a product called Microsoft Sound System, and
that's what might be listed in some games people see (I've seen it before). Whereas, WSS is
Windows Sound System, and seems to be an entirely different matter. I haven't seen it listed in
any games/apps I've used, but that in no way means it doesn't exist. Any ideas/clarification on
this matter would help out many I'm sure.
Bob Chalfin
rcha...@ee.net
Patrick R. Mullen
John Brand wrote:
>
> Jhana Brown wrote:
> >
> > In article <31D3B5...@hipsys.co.za>,
> > John Brand <joh...@hipsys.co.za> wrote:
> > >Here follows my initial views:
> > >Need for Speed has an MSS option but the detection will not work, only
> > >sound blaster pro is working. This is not good, because Need for speed
> > >uses digital streaming and the audio is passed from the cdrom throught
> > >the sound card is 16-bits. I know this from my PAS16 previously which
> > >sounded great. Now its all crunchy (8-bit) and noisy. What now!!! The
> > >setup simply refuses. Even tried DOS mode? Anyone?
> >
> > prompt prior to executing the games that aren't accurately detecting MSS (or
> > Win3.X's WSS)? This *only* applies to a few DOS games. Think of it as a
> > 'wake-up' call to the MSS part of the card.
> >
> only, and WIN95, no joy.
> ALSO, DukeNukem 3D places my GM MIDI mode in such a state that it
> becomes inoperable when returning to windows after playing the game.
> Then I have to restart to even play a MIDI file. NOT NICE!!!!!!!
>
> John Brand
> email: joh...@hipsys.co.za
> "A dim light brightens..."
> My opinions are solely my own and NOT my company's!
John:
Your Tropez Plus (like the CrystaLake Multimedia CLMI 140) has a
CS4232 codec chip by made Crystal Semiconductor.
The CS4232 can run in MSS mode *or* SB mode: not BOTH at the same
time. If you don't put the CS4232 into WSS mode when booting DOS,
and have a BLASTER environment variable set, then -- of course! --
your DOS games will NOT detect that you have a MSS compatible
codec (because your CS4232 is masqurading as a SB codec).
Create a CONFIG.SYS/AUTOEXEC.BAT menu system where you can boot-up
DOS with the CS4232 setup as a regular WSS compatible device (Menu
Item #1) or as a Win '95 device (Menu Item #2).
Under Menu Item #1 (setting-up your CS4232 codec in WSS mode),
you need to have the following item in your CONFIG.SYS:
device=C:\WINDOWS.95\TBS2001.EXE /O /R /V <-- Tropez Plus init util
(by-passes PnP and loads TBSDOS.INI)
or:
device=C:\WINDOWS.95\CS4232C.EXE /O /R /V <-- CLMI 140 init util
(by-passes PnP and loads CS4232.INI)
For normal Win '95 operation, the above statements would be different:
device=C:\WINDOWS.95\TBS2001.EXE /W <-- Tropez Plus CS4232 init util
or:
device=C:\WINDOWS.95\CS4232C.exe /W <-- CLMI 140 CS4232 init util
For DOS Mode WSS emulation (Menu Item #1) the AUTOEXEC.BAT file
needs the following line:
C:\TURTLE\TBSMIX /D /S <-- Tropez Plus CS4232 Mixer
C:\TURTLE\TBSWSS <-- Forces WSS mode
or:
C:\CRYSTAL\CS32MIX /D /S <-- CLMI 140 CS4232 Mixer
So that your game comes up in WSS mode correctly, make sure
you leave-out the BLASTER environmental variable setting
under Menu Item #1 (you *might* want to create a 3rd menu
where you bring-up DOS with the CS4232 in SB mode...I'll
leave that as a homework problem).
You'll notice it doesn't much matter whether we're talking about
a Tropez Plus or a CLMI 140 (which are as about as different as
two soundcards can get these days). This is the beauty of the
CS4232 codec: once you learn how to get everything working with
one particular CS4232-based soundcard, every other card based
on the chip becomes a snap to setup and use (well, *almost* --
I will admit that our company made some proprietary fixes to
the CrystaLake CLMI 120/140 version of the CS4232 drivers that
makes their card easier to install and run under DOS/Win 3.1
and Win '95).
--
Cheers!
Patrick R. Mullen
Dir. of Engineering
Mullen Scientific Software
1686 State Route 69
Parish, NY 13131
(315) 625-4660
prmu...@dreamscape.com
Riccardo Losselli
On Mon, 1 Jul 1996 16:08:14 GMT, jdr...@netcom.com (Vince Vu) wrote:
>It's apples and oranges. You're compareing the AWE32's 1MB ROM to
>tropez+'s 4MB ROM.
Ok, let's put it this way.... I think that the point of comparing two
cards is to see what I like more: Oranges or apples.
>Now if you compare it with E-mu's 4MB GM/GS bank or 8MB GM/GS bank, then
>that's a different story.
Now it's you that are comparing oranges and apples. Why comparing the
ROM of the Tropez+ (BTW I've never heard it, so I can't say how it
sounds, but both the Sound Canvas and Yamaha board sound better than
the 8MB GS EMU bank) with the RAM of the card? For me it's ok. But
following your idea it isn't.
>>better choice, but not my much. It is far closer to their FM than it is to our
>>WaveFront chip, and that is sad considering they are using EMU sounds.
>
>The way you state this, it sounds like you are inferring the synthesis
>chip is inferior because the ROM is only 1MB. I'm sure you are aware of
>the limitations of the ICS chip compared to the EMU8000.
I think he's pointing out the same thing I think about the AWE.Very
good chip. Horrible design of the card, that makes that chip sound
awful.
Bye,
Ricky
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Riccardo Losselli
On 2 Jul 1996 02:58:09 GMT, dga...@ix.netcom.com (David Gasior)
wrote:
>In article <jdreddDt...@netcom.com>, jdr...@netcom.com says...
>
>>I agree. It is not very good. But then again it is *only* 1meg. It's
>>pretty damn hard to fit 128 instruments and 51 drums into 1MB at 16-bit.
>
>Ensoniq does a good job of it. =) And while I understand why they do it, I
>think a 1meg ROM on their top of the line card is not a quality choice.
And the GUS P'nP, even if not at Ensoniq level, at least has drums
that don't sound like FM. The AWE does!! Listen to the hi-hat, for
example. Sounds like an FM one.
Maurice Dohmen
This is a very interesting thread! Could you guys say something about
the effect processor on the Tropez+ and on the AWE32?
How do they compare? What are the possibilities/limitations?
Maurice Dohmen
--
Department of Computing Science | Phone +31 15 278 4564
Delft University of Technology | Fax +31 15 278 7141
PO Box 356, NL-2600 AJ Delft, The Netherlands | m.do...@cs.tudelft.nl
http://wwwcg.twi.tudelft.nl/~dohmen
Mit wenig Moos viel los!
Vince Vu
dga...@ix.netcom.com (David Gasior) writes:
>>I agree. It is not very good. But then again it is *only* 1meg. It's
>>pretty damn hard to fit 128 instruments and 51 drums into 1MB at 16-bit.
>Ensoniq does a good job of it. =) And while I understand why they do it, I
>think a 1meg ROM on their top of the line card is not a quality choice.
Sorry, but the Ensoniq SoundScape Elite (top of the line of ensoniq's
cards) has a 2MB ROM, and the samples are not stored as 16-bits.
>similarly designed sound cards/price range to be compared with it. It is not
>our fault we provide a 4meg set at the same price as CL.
Hardly the same price. I was at Fry's yesterday. The SB32 was going for
$140, and the Tropez+ $250.
Jason Dean Malone
dga...@ix.netcom.com (David Gasior) wrote:
>In article <jdreddDt...@netcom.com>, jdr...@netcom.com says...
>
>>pretty damn hard to fit 128 instruments and 51 drums into 1MB at 16-bit.
>
>Ensoniq does a good job of it. =) And while I understand why they do it, I
>think a 1meg ROM on their top of the line card is not a quality choice.
Their top of the line card is the ensoniq soundscape elite,
which uses 2 megs of ROM. and that 2 MB rom sounds a
hell of a lot better than the 4 meg ROM on the TB rio
which uses the cheapy ICS synth...
Jason Dean Malone
ele...@mbox.vol.it (Riccardo Losselli) wrote:
>On 2 Jul 1996 02:58:09 GMT, dga...@ix.netcom.com (David Gasior)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <jdreddDt...@netcom.com>, jdr...@netcom.com says...
>>
>>>I agree. It is not very good. But then again it is *only* 1meg. It's
>>>pretty damn hard to fit 128 instruments and 51 drums into 1MB at 16-bit.
>>
>>Ensoniq does a good job of it. =) And while I understand why they do it, I
>>think a 1meg ROM on their top of the line card is not a quality choice.
>
>that don't sound like FM. The AWE does!! Listen to the hi-hat, for
>example. Sounds like an FM one.
How can you put the Ensoniq [elite] (which has 2.1 Megs BTW)
and the GUS in the same LEAGUE?? To my ear, the elite
sounds _much_ better than the GUS PnP playing MIDI.
The GUS is basically good
for MODs. Thats it.
The ROM sounds on the GUS PnP are among
the worst i've ever heard. So stop ragging on the AWE,
the GUS is ALMOST as bad!
David Gasior
In article <jdreddD...@netcom.com>, jdr...@netcom.com says...
>Sorry, but the Ensoniq SoundScape Elite (top of the line of ensoniq's
>cards) has a 2MB ROM, and the samples are not stored as 16-bits.
I was referring to the OEM SoundScape cards that have 1meg on them and sound
far better than our Tropez32 (with a 1meg set) or the AWE32 (with its 1meg
set).
>Hardly the same price. I was at Fry's yesterday. The SB32 was going for
>$140, and the Tropez+ $250.
Well, you may have wanted to check the price of the AWE32 instead of the SB32
since that is the card we are referring to. The SB32 is Creative Labs entry
level wavetable card, just like our TBS2000, which (wouldn't ya know) sells at
Fry's for $137.
The Lord Leto II
>Now theres a statement I coulc/nt agree with more fully.
>Way to go (read my other post)
>Quality MUST prevail over compatibility!!!
No -- I'd rather have something that works than something that
claims to be great but doesn't work. A more correct statement:
Quality MUST coexist with compatibility!!!
****id Software's Quake .92 is available from ftp.idsoftware.com****
*************The Lord Leto II. God Emperor of Arrakis.*************
* The crowd roars * It's deep and so unhealthy * The rest you know *
* I'll feel the hands that felt me * Cold hands * Your hands *
* Cover my mouth * While I'm staring into bright lights * APPLAUSE *
* APPLAUSE * APPLAUSE * APPLAUSE * -- Faith No More, "Malpractice" *
************ t951%nemomus...@academic.nemostate.edu ************
Jeff Glatt
>>I think that it would sound good to a game player's ears. On the other
>>hand, people who are accustomed to using pro MIDI gear, or who have
>>very discerning ears, may not feel that the AWE32 is for them. (
>But isn't that the point of buying an expensive card like the AWE32, to get
>good MIDI quality closer to professional? You can buy a "game card" for a heck
>of a lot less.
You can buy a game card for less than the Tropez too. You can also buy
a better sounding card than the Tropez or AWE32. It's all relative.
I just don't find your relative comparison of the AWE32 FM synth and
wavetable as "sounds identical" to be very accurate.
>we don't want to be CL; we enjoyed showing a profit this quarter.
Keep following in CL's footsteps, for example with those CDROM/sound
card game bundles, and you may follow more than you'd care to
Riccardo Losselli
On 3 Jul 1996 18:04:42 GMT, Jason Dean Malone <jdmalone> wrote:
>ele...@mbox.vol.it (Riccardo Losselli) wrote:
>>On 2 Jul 1996 02:58:09 GMT, dga...@ix.netcom.com (David Gasior)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In article <jdreddDt...@netcom.com>, jdr...@netcom.com says...
>>>
>>>>I agree. It is not very good. But then again it is *only* 1meg. It's
>>>>pretty damn hard to fit 128 instruments and 51 drums into 1MB at 16-bit.
>>>
>>>Ensoniq does a good job of it. =) And while I understand why they do it, I
>>>think a 1meg ROM on their top of the line card is not a quality choice.
>>
>>And the GUS P'nP, even if not at Ensoniq level, at least has drums
>>that don't sound like FM. The AWE does!! Listen to the hi-hat, for
>>example. Sounds like an FM one.
>
>How can you put the Ensoniq [elite] (which has 2.1 Megs BTW)
>and the GUS in the same LEAGUE?? To my ear, the elite
>sounds _much_ better than the GUS PnP playing MIDI.
First I did not put the Elite and the GUS on the same league.In fact i
said the GUS is NOT at Ensoniq level. Read before shooting, please.
>The GUS is basically good
>for MODs. Thats it.
The GUS is basically PERFECT for mods.
>The ROM sounds on the GUS PnP are among
>the worst i've ever heard. So stop ragging on the AWE,
>the GUS is ALMOST as bad!
That's the point. ALMOST. You just replyed to my post, just saying the
SAME things i said...
Riccardo Losselli
Christopher M. DiPierro
Just to throw my 2 cents in...I recently got the GUS PnP...now for $160
I've got the card with 4 megs on it, and a very nice patch set...much
better MIDI quality than any of the ROM sets I've heard, flawless
compatibility in General Midi, MT32, SB, and original GUS so far even on
things I wouldn't have thought would have had a chance in the world of
working...For the money it's a great card and rendors most of this
discussion about who's ROM set is better pointless...
Vince Vu
ele...@mbox.vol.it (Riccardo Losselli) writes:
>Now it's you that are comparing oranges and apples. Why comparing the
>ROM of the Tropez+ (BTW I've never heard it, so I can't say how it
>sounds, but both the Sound Canvas and Yamaha board sound better than
>the 8MB GS EMU bank) with the RAM of the card? For me it's ok. But
>following your idea it isn't.
Have you ever heard E-mu's 8MB GM bank? Truth please.
Riccardo Losselli
That friend of mine with the AWE came to me with the card and the
bank. He said it was the new GS Emu bank, not GM. I did listen to it,
and It was nice, but really nothing more.