Lee collet dies
Kaboom
dies. I'm reloading .222rem.
thanks.
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Rick Courtright
#
# Just wanted to get an opinion on lee collet dies as compared to the standard
Hi,
I started using them to improve life expectancy of .303 British cases.
They work as advertised in that department. As for accuracy--the rifle's
not that good, nor am I, so I didn't notice a change there. IIRC,
they're not recommended for autos or lever guns...
Rick
Ken Marsh
Kaboom <s36...@student.uq.edu.au> wrote:
#Just wanted to get an opinion on lee collet dies as compared to the standard
#dies. I'm reloading .222rem.
The resize just the neck, leaving vertical stripes where the collet does
not engage. If you start with a concentric case, you'll end up with one,
which is their greatest strength over conventional neck sizing dies.
If your cases need sizing to fit in the chamber, you'll still need
a FL sizing die.
Ken.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
An Iraq Democracy will become a minority oppressing Theocracy in less
than two years. Iraq's new government needs to be a Republic!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Curt Cooper
Remington. That die set provides a much higher level of accuracy than the
original regular Lee 22-250 die set I purchased. However, the Collet Die Set
only neck sizes the brass, so if you shoot more than one .223 rifle, you may
be required to segregate your brass by rifle.
Nonetheless, the last test target I have for my Ruger 22-250 using my Lee
Collet Die set shows a 1.07" group at 300 yards. Rifle was shot from its
bipod with a Leupold 12X varmint/target scope. Target picture available (in
Microsoft Word) upon request.
Coop
NRA Endowment
SASS Life
NMLRA
"Kaboom" <s36...@student.uq.edu.au> wrote in message
news:b8bg94$19a$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# Just wanted to get an opinion on lee collet dies as compared to the
standard
# dies. I'm reloading .222rem.
#
# thanks.
Cowboy Blob
Peter Hauer
I use both the Lee Collet and Lee regular rifle dies. I have noticed a
slight accuracy benefit from the Collet dies.
But the most important benefit from the Collet dies is much longer case
life.(because the Collet die very gently only sizes the neck of the case)
Also, the Collet die is more convenient because it does NOT have to be
lubricated before sizing.
vty Peter Hauer
If you need a convenient source for great info try:
http://www.CommonSenseNow.com or http://home.attbi.com/~commonsensenow
Download some of the articles and give them to
friends and co-workers. Use the info to write letters
to the editor.
"Kaboom" <s36...@student.uq.edu.au> wrote in message
news:b8bg94$19a$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
standard
> ...
Bart B.
# But the most important benefit from the Collet dies is much longer case
# life. (because the Collet die very gently only sizes the neck of the case).
Normally, I've got over 50 reloads on the same full-length sized .308
case in standard SAAMI dimension chambers with maximum loads. And
these loads are far more accurate than any neck-sized cases I've tried
with all types of neck-only sizing dies available including the Lee
collet dies. I get better accuracy with new, unfired brass than
neck-sized brass.
There must be some differences between how I set up my dies and how
others do it. And there may also be differences in how I define
accuracy.
Lawrence A. Ramsey
able to wear out yet. The headstamp is long gone.
On Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:04:27 +0000 (UTC), bar...@aol.com (Bart B.)
wrote:
> ...
Clark Magnuson
#>> Clark,
#>
#> <snip>
#>>
#>> I've noted that in 1K-yard matches, for every 15 seconds over 30
#>> seconds I leave the round in the hot chamber, I have to come down
#>> 1/4th MOA on the sights so that shot doesn't go high.
#>>
#>> And if I have to wait for more than about 5 minutes to shoot again,
#>> the chamber temperature has dropped enough that the powder
#>> temperature will be lower and the next shot will be low if I don't
#>> come up on the sights to compensate. There's been folks at the
#>> Nationals who've had perfect scores going but had to cease fire for 5
#>> to 10 minutes because a boat was in the impact area. When firing was
#>> resumed, their next shot would be a 9 out the bottom. If the delay
#>> is over 10 minutes, they usually give competitors one sighting shot
#>> because of this situation. But one shot won't heat up the barrel
#>> back where it was and one may have to compensate for this situation,
#>> too.
#>>
#>> Bart
> Regarding the comment:
>
> # But the most important benefit from the Collet dies is much longer case
> # life. (because the Collet die very gently only sizes the neck of
the case).
>
> Normally, I've got over 50 reloads on the same full-length sized .308
> case in standard SAAMI dimension chambers with maximum loads. And
> these loads are far more accurate than any neck-sized cases I've tried
> with all types of neck-only sizing dies available including the Lee
> collet dies. I get better accuracy with new, unfired brass than
> neck-sized brass.
>
> There must be some differences between how I set up my dies and how
> others do it. And there may also be differences in how I define
> accuracy.
Back in the early 80's I solved a chronic problem of power transistor
failure for a defense contractor. All those who tried before had stared
at schematics, while I starred at failed parts. The insulating shoulder
washer was exhibiting "thermal cyclic creep" below the deflection
temperature.
Looking at a graph of metal to metal thermal conductivity, the
conductivity goes up with contact pressure and smoothness. I found a
different material washer and the problems was solved.
Trying to relive my youthful successes, I am suggesting that if the
thermal time constant were fast enough, because of tight fitting ammo,
the Bart could not aim and shoot fast enough to compensate for the
increased velocity of hotter powder. This change in conductivity would
be caused by a neck sized cartridge's increased contact area and contact
force. If Bart has 3 second before hot chamber time must be compensated,
rather than 30 seconds, that could account for the accuracy change.
I have been trying to design an experiment to verify my hypothesis with
a temp probe into the powder of loose or tight cartridges chambered in a
hot chamber and record the change in temp rate. Maybe it would be
easier to just measure the difference with a chrono.
D. J. Dorn
have fireformed brass that is custom to your chamber. It also helps align
the bullet with middle of the bore. That said, I belive you because you say
it's your experience - it baffles me but if you're keeping track and you get
better accuracy from full length sized cases, then great. I'm not sure how
you get brass to last 50 loading when full length sizing, but if you say so,
.. who am I to tell you that you dont'.
Don
"Bart B." <bar...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:b8jftr$hrd$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
case).
> ...
Jim Murphy
I use a chrono to check my reloads and have seen this too.
I noticed that after reloading, my first string of test rounds almost
always starts off slow and steadily increases a few fps with each round. I
don't bother to warm up or rest the barrel, other than my extraordinarily
long seek time between shots.
I haven't seen this behavior with subsequent strings from a warm chamber.
Jim Murphy KE4FPB
Mars ain't the kind of place to raise your kids.
On Mon, 28 Apr 2003, Clark Magnuson wrote:
> ...
Rick Courtright
# Normally, I've got over 50 reloads on the same full-length sized .308
# case in standard SAAMI dimension chambers with maximum loads. And
Bart,
That's a LOT of reloads for any case... when you say standard SAAMI
dimensions are you using custom chambered rifles that are "spot on" to
the specs, thus minimizing the working of the brass with a full length
resize? Any special lube? No mixing of cases between rifles? A
particular brand of brass? Frequent annealing? There's something here
the rest of us aren't taking advantage of...
Thanks for any input!
Rick
Bart B.
follow:
In measuring the pressure ring and shoulder diameter that different
RCBS .308 Win. full-length sizing dies produce, there is a spread of
about three-thousandths of an inch. Normal? Yes. There are
manufacturing tolerances in those drilled, reamed and polished holes
die maker's put in the round steel bars Different chambering
processes and reamers also have dimensional tolerances. What one
factory barrel has is probably a different size chamber than another
for the same cartridge.
When the firing pin strikes the primer, that force drives the case as
far forward in the chamber as possible as it slams against the chamber
shoulder. Evidence of this can be seen by first blackening a primed
bottleneck virgin/unfired case's shoulder (no powder or bullet), then
putting it in the bolt face with its rim behind the extractor, then
carefully chambering the round. Pull the trigger to pop the primer,
then eject the case and look at the marks on the shoulder from it
slamming against the chamber shoulder. If there are no marks on the
case shoulder, that case may well have been too short in headspace for
safe use in the chamber it came out of. Extractor's typically don't
hold the case hard against the bolt face so they're rarely cause this
problem. If you have a sized-case headspace micrometer, such as the
RCBS Precision Mic, you can measure the before and after headspace on
the case - after popping the primer, the case is typically shorter as
its shoulder was set back a thousandth of an inch or more. Slightly
lubricate the case shoulder before popping this primed case will set
it back even further. (Note: comments from readers who actually do
this may be interesting to read) Belted case life can be increased the
same, but a special die must be made to reduce the case diameter
immediately in front of the belt; normal ones don't.
It's prudent to move brass as little as possible so metal fatigue
doesn't make it brittle. Brittle cases usually rupture upon firing
because they stretch at the brittle point enough to break. As rifle
cases typically have thinner walls at their front end compared to the
back, when they're fired, the front part of the body presses hard
against the chamber wall while the back part isn't pressed against it
as much. This causes the back of the case to stretch back. If a
full-length sizing die sets the shoulder back too far, the back of
that case will stretch too far as the head finally stops against the
bolt face. As the pressure ring is where most brass is moved when
cases are full-length resized, this is where cases with their
shoulders set back too far tend to separate - head separation, the
scourge of so many case failures.
Solution? First, use a full-length sizing die that doesn't reduce
body diameters more than two to three thousandths from fired
dimensions. The case body will stretch very little and its reloading
life is greatly extended. Most commercial brass can last a long time,
but military brass (match included) is too brittle for long case life.
Second, uniformly lube your cases. Most pad lubes put on different
amounts and too much means the shoulder sets back too far; too little
and the shoulder may not be set back at all. I tumble 50 cleaned
cases in a foam lined 40-oz. coffee can with a 50-50 mixture of STP
and Hoppe's No. 9 dribbled on the foam. Third, adjust, then lock the
die in the press so it doesn't set the shoulder back more than the
same amount from its fired dimension; yes, you'll need a case
headspace micrometer to do this. And, if you want to reduce the metal
fatigue the neck gets from sizing down and expanding up with that
little ball on the decapping rod, lap out the die's neck to about
three thousandths smaller than loaded-round neck diameter, or whatever
produces the grip you want on the bullet - this also enables much
straighter bullet seating.
Some highpower competitors have got over 100 loads a case using the
above solutions from even the thinnest and most uniform .308 Win.
cases ever made: Western Cartridge WCC58; they made ‘em for the US
Olympic and other international teams for use in free rifles in 300
meter competition. But they were corrosively primed; you had to take
unfired ammo, pull the Western 200-gr. .3088-in. diameter bullet, dump
the ball powder, punch out the primer and reload with better
components. I called Western Cartridge in 1991 asking about those
cases in doing research for the Palma Team's 1992 ammo; the dies that
made those great WCC58 cases were still in a box in storage.
I've used the same full-length sizing die with three different .308
Win. chamber dimensions; I don't think that matters. In commercial
chambers, they differ enough in diameters than one may need to try
several dies to find one that reduces body diameters just right. I
don't think one can get 100 loads per case from a commercial/factory
chamber, but a friend years ago had factory Model 70 target rifle he
got at least 40 loads per case with. I've never annealed a case in my
life. I've got to trim a case once in a while; they do grow in
length. The most loads per case I've got was 102 with WCC58 case. A
Federal .308 Win. brass case produced 57 loads in a controlled test,
but I ran out of powder.
Bart B.
My favorite for .308 Win. is Western Cartridge stuff made in 1958 for
the USA international teams for use in 300 meter free rifles. It had
corrosive primers and one had to get unfired ammo, scrap the oversize
200-gr. SBT bullet (so they would shoot accurate in Winchester's M70
International), ball powder and primer, then put in good stuff. It's
headstamped WCC58. Probably the thinnest brass made; cases weigh
about 150 grains. Wall thickness the most uniform of any brass.
Second is the same brand, but made in 1960 (WCC60) with oversize
190-gr. HPBT bullets but with non-corrosive primers. A bit thicker
brass so cases weigh about 157 grains. Almost as uniform in
thickness, too.
Winchester commercial brass has worked well in my match rifles as has
Federal nickle plated stuff. Heavier, thicker brass but reasonably
uniform for accurate loads.
Clark Magnuson
# little ball on the decapping rod, lap out the die's neck to about
# three thousandths smaller than loaded-round neck diameter, or whatever
# produces the grip you want on the bullet - this also enables much
# straighter bullet seating.
Would Redding Type S Full Bushing Dies do the same thing?
Rick Courtright
#
# Regarding the number of loads per case I and others get; comments
# follow:
Thanks, Bart!
Don't know about others, but I learned a couple of things from your
experience.
Rick
PapaBear
with all those post paid cards for buying or getting freebies from various
companies. One that got my attention is for a 720 page reloading manual by
Richard Lee, has over 26,000 recommended loads from ballistic labs and it
comes with a free Lee reloader press. Total cost is $32.98 including
shipping. I haven't checked their web site to see if the offer is there too
but I'm letting my son buy it for father's day . [;^)
"Rick Courtright" <rcour...@iname.com> wrote in message
news:b8v61l$r3o$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
Ken Marsh
PapaBear <Papa...@bearclaw.com> wrote:
#Don't know the interest here but I just got one of those advertising mailers
#with all those post paid cards for buying or getting freebies from various
#companies. One that got my attention is for a 720 page reloading manual by
#Richard Lee, has over 26,000 recommended loads from ballistic labs and it
#comes with a free Lee reloader press. Total cost is $32.98 including
#shipping. I haven't checked their web site to see if the offer is there too
#but I'm letting my son buy it for father's day . [;^)
$32.98! You can get it for half that from most reloading outlets. Midway
USA has the 2nd edition (part number 484-416) for $12.99. The first
edition is closing out for $9.99 here and there. All those loads are the
free ones you can get from the powder company's hand-out pamphlets.
Ken.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
An Iraq Democracy will become a minority oppressing Theocracy in less
than two years. Iraq's new government needs to be a Republic!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jim Wallace
#Don't know the interest here but I just got one of those advertising mailers
#with all those post paid cards for buying or getting freebies from various
#companies. One that got my attention is for a 720 page reloading manual by
#Richard Lee, has over 26,000 recommended loads from ballistic labs and it
#comes with a free Lee reloader press. Total cost is $32.98 including
#shipping. I haven't checked their web site to see if the offer is there too
#but I'm letting my son buy it for father's day . [;^)
#
You can get that same deal at Midsouth Shooters Supply for $19.48 shipping
may add $4 or $5 to it.. Save your son some green.
Here's the direct link to that item:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?E2B562574
and Midsouth's main page:
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com
I don't work for 'em. They just seem to have the best deals most of the time.
Jim Wallace
American