Another word on the Pledge...
Randolph Fritz
We could change it ever day, so that a different diety was invoked
each time. I really would like to hear a bunch of fundies saying
"under Allah" (which, in fact, means "under god," but somehow I don't
think they'd get along with it) or "under the goddess"
(hmmm...interesting implication there) or even "under no god."
Randolph
Priscilla Ballou
Randolph Fritz <rand...@panix.com> wrote:
"Under all the gods" would get those fundies, too!
Priscilla
--
"Love is not something wonderful that you feel; it is something
difficult that you do." -- Elizabeth Goudge
Doug Wickstrom
<slrnaih5ml....@panix3.panix.com>
Randolph Fritz <rand...@panix.com> excited the ether to say:
>We could change it ever day, so that a different diety was invoked
Pet peeve alert:
D E I T Y
End pet peeve alert.
--
Doug Wickstrom <nims...@attbi.com>
"In a country where the sole employer is the State, opposition means death by
slow starvation. The old principle: who does not work shall not eat, has been
replaced by a new one: who does not obey shall not eat." --Leon Trotsky
David Dyer-Bennet
> In article <slrnaih5ml....@panix3.panix.com>,
> Randolph Fritz <rand...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> > Two words, actually...
> >
> > We could change it ever day, so that a different diety was invoked
> > each time. I really would like to hear a bunch of fundies saying
> > "under Allah" (which, in fact, means "under god," but somehow I don't
> > think they'd get along with it) or "under the goddess"
> > (hmmm...interesting implication there) or even "under no god."
>
> "Under all the gods" would get those fundies, too!
And would continue to offent the atheists, probably the agnostics, and
(I hope) everybody who believes in a secular state, regardless of
their own religious beliefs.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, dd...@dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test
John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net
Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/
New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info
Priscilla Ballou
David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:
> Priscilla Ballou <vze2...@verizon.net> writes:
>
> > In article <slrnaih5ml....@panix3.panix.com>,
> > Randolph Fritz <rand...@panix.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Two words, actually...
> > >
> > > We could change it ever day, so that a different diety was invoked
> > > each time. I really would like to hear a bunch of fundies saying
> > > "under Allah" (which, in fact, means "under god," but somehow I don't
> > > think they'd get along with it) or "under the goddess"
> > > (hmmm...interesting implication there) or even "under no god."
> >
> > "Under all the gods" would get those fundies, too!
>
> And would continue to offent the atheists, probably the agnostics, and
> (I hope) everybody who believes in a secular state, regardless of
> their own religious beliefs.
Well, yeah. We were just playing around. *sniff* gonna go home now...
<mumble, mumble>
Steve Franklin
"Doug Wickstrom" <nims...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:2vbhiu4juah3iumnd...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 7 Jul 2002 19:30:29 +0000 (UTC), in message
> <slrnaih5ml....@panix3.panix.com>
> Randolph Fritz <rand...@panix.com> excited the ether to say:
>
> >We could change it ever day, so that a different diety was invoked
>
> Pet peeve alert:
>
> D E I T Y
>
> End pet peeve alert.
>
that was the ONLY word I spelled wrong, 2 out of 3 times. Give the guy a
break. How often does the average person use the word anyway?
Steve Franklin
Margaret Young
wrote:
>On Sun, 7 Jul 2002 19:30:29 +0000 (UTC), in message
><slrnaih5ml....@panix3.panix.com>
> Randolph Fritz <rand...@panix.com> excited the ether to say:
>
>>We could change it ever day, so that a different diety was invoked
>
>Pet peeve alert:
>
>D E I T Y
>
>End pet peeve alert.
Hmmm, "diety" -- a very angry deity.
--
Margaret Young
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Come the apocalypse there will be cockroaches, Keith Richards and the
faint smell of cat pee.
-----------== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Uncensored Usenet News ==----------
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----= Over 100,000 Newsgroups - Unlimited Fast Downloads - 19 Servers =-----
mike weber
typed
>On Sun, 07 Jul 2002 21:19:28 GMT, Doug Wickstrom <nims...@attbi.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 7 Jul 2002 19:30:29 +0000 (UTC), in message
>><slrnaih5ml....@panix3.panix.com>
>> Randolph Fritz <rand...@panix.com> excited the ether to say:
>>
>>>We could change it ever day, so that a different diety was invoked
>>
>>Pet peeve alert:
>>
>>D E I T Y
>>
>>End pet peeve alert.
>
>Hmmm, "diety" -- a very angry deity.
No, a skinny one.
--
"He had long ago come to the conclusion that there
were no 'Things Man Was Not Meant To Know'. He was willing
to believe that there were things Man was Too Dumb To
Figure Out." - Mike Kurland
<mike weber> <mike....@electronictiger.com>
Book Reviews & More -- http://electronictiger.com
Doug Wickstrom
<Hd3W8.25$0P5....@news.abs.net>
"Steve Franklin" <4uwmeo...@sneakemail.com> excited the ether
to say:
>
>"Doug Wickstrom" <nims...@attbi.com> wrote in message
>news:2vbhiu4juah3iumnd...@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 7 Jul 2002 19:30:29 +0000 (UTC), in message
>> <slrnaih5ml....@panix3.panix.com>
>> Randolph Fritz <rand...@panix.com> excited the ether to say:
>>
>> >We could change it ever day, so that a different diety was invoked
>>
>> Pet peeve alert:
>>
>> D E I T Y
>>
>> End pet peeve alert.
>>
>You know, out of an entire manuscript I had published back in the late 80s,
>that was the ONLY word I spelled wrong, 2 out of 3 times. Give the guy a
>break. How often does the average person use the word anyway?
The spill chucker is your friend. Usually.
--
Doug Wickstrom <nims...@attbi.com>
"We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in
which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology." --Carl Sagan
Kip Williams
> On Sun, 07 Jul 2002 18:30:49 -0400, Margaret Young <mmy...@umich.edu>
> typed
>
>
>>On Sun, 07 Jul 2002 21:19:28 GMT, Doug Wickstrom <nims...@attbi.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Sun, 7 Jul 2002 19:30:29 +0000 (UTC), in message
>>><slrnaih5ml....@panix3.panix.com>
>>>Randolph Fritz <rand...@panix.com> excited the ether to say:
>>>
>>>
>>>>We could change it ever day, so that a different diety was invoked
>>>
>>>Pet peeve alert:
>>>
>>>D E I T Y
>>>
>>>End pet peeve alert.
>>
>>Hmmm, "diety" -- a very angry deity.
>
>
> No, a skinny one.
"That's why it's so angry."
--
--Kip (Williams) ...at members.cox.net/kipw
"Well, it looks as though my time is up. The old clock on the wall
has melted." --Hugh "Wavy Gravy" Romney
Vicki Rosenzweig
18:25:45 -0400:
At least three times.
Of course, it doesn't help that that misspelling got into the Unix
spell program. (It may have been taken out by now, at least in some
Unices.)
--
Vicki Rosenzweig | v...@redbird.org
r.a.sf.f faq at http://www.redbird.org/rassef-faq.html
Vicki Rosenzweig
-0400:
>On Sun, 07 Jul 2002 21:19:28 GMT, Doug Wickstrom <nims...@attbi.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 7 Jul 2002 19:30:29 +0000 (UTC), in message
>><slrnaih5ml....@panix3.panix.com>
>> Randolph Fritz <rand...@panix.com> excited the ether to say:
>>
>>>We could change it ever day, so that a different diety was invoked
>>
>>Pet peeve alert:
>>
>>D E I T Y
>>
>>End pet peeve alert.
>
>Hmmm, "diety" -- a very angry deity.
ObSF: Deus Irae
John Smith
>Priscilla Ballou <vze2...@verizon.net> writes:
>
>> In article <slrnaih5ml....@panix3.panix.com>,
>> Randolph Fritz <rand...@panix.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Two words, actually...
>> >
>> > We could change it ever day, so that a different diety was invoked
>> > each time. I really would like to hear a bunch of fundies saying
>> > "under Allah" (which, in fact, means "under god," but somehow I don't
>> > think they'd get along with it) or "under the goddess"
>> > (hmmm...interesting implication there) or even "under no god."
>>
>> "Under all the gods" would get those fundies, too!
>
>And would continue to offent the atheists, probably the agnostics, and
>(I hope) everybody who believes in a secular state, regardless of
>their own religious beliefs.
Or at least anyone who is loser enough to care about something so
meaningless.
Fluff
"Randolph Fritz" <rand...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:slrnaih5ml....@panix3.panix.com...
How about "Under the Jolly Green Giant"?
Flufff
Hell hath no fury like a woman cloned!
O. Deus
Wouldn't make much sense, "God" is a general catch-all term that covers the
vauge religious beliefs of the vast majority of Americans. Allah refferences
a specific minor (relative to the US) based creed or 'goddess' which is not
an actual religious belief in the first place.
As an atheist, I find it simpler to just skip that part without all the fuss
that some seem to be making over it...
O. Deus
>>> > We could change it ever day, so that a different diety was invoked
>>> > each time. I really would like to hear a bunch of fundies saying
>>> > "under Allah" (which, in fact, means "under god," but somehow I don't
>>> > think they'd get along with it) or "under the goddess"
>>> > (hmmm...interesting implication there) or even "under no god."
>>And would continue to offent the atheists, probably the agnostics, and
>>(I hope) everybody who believes in a secular state, regardless of
>>their own religious beliefs.
>
>Or at least anyone who is loser enough to care about something so
>meaningless.
Which apparently would include you, since you took the time to comment on
it...
John Smith
mike weber
typed
Are you planning to get in a fight with Odious?
Can i have the beer & popcorn concession?
mike weber
typed
One day, in "Life in Hell", Bongo, Binky's son, the rabbit with one
ear, sat at his desk in class and recited:
I pledge allegiance to Frank Zappa of the United Mutations of America
and to the Duke of Prunes and Grand Wazoo for which he stands.
One size, excentrifugal, with yellow sharks and hot rats for all.
(Bongo's response to glaring teacher after the above: "The present-day
composer refuses to die!")
http://www.mich.com/~drhanna/pledge93.htm
((If i can read the teeny lettering on the side of the panels, this
strip appeared on 12/17/93, thirteen days after FZ died. Quick
work.))
John Smith
>On Sun, 07 Jul 2002 20:29:59 -0700, John Smith <bit...@biteme.org>
>typed
>
>>"O. Deus" <od...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>>
>>>John Smith wrote in message
>>>
>>>>>> > We could change it ever day, so that a different diety was invoked
>>>>>> > each time. I really would like to hear a bunch of fundies saying
>>>>>> > "under Allah" (which, in fact, means "under god," but somehow I don't
>>>>>> > think they'd get along with it) or "under the goddess"
>>>>>> > (hmmm...interesting implication there) or even "under no god."
>>>
>>>>>And would continue to offent the atheists, probably the agnostics, and
>>>>>(I hope) everybody who believes in a secular state, regardless of
>>>>>their own religious beliefs.
>>>>
>>>>Or at least anyone who is loser enough to care about something so
>>>>meaningless.
>>>
>>>
>>>Which apparently would include you, since you took the time to comment on
>>>it...
>>>
>>You're gonna be fun for a *long* time.
>
>Are you planning to get in a fight with Odious?
Well, it is up to me, since he has no will of his own. It'll last as long as
he amuses me.
>
>Can i have the beer & popcorn concession?
Only if I get a percentage.
Manny Olds
>> In article <slrnaih5ml....@panix3.panix.com>,
>> Randolph Fritz <rand...@panix.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Two words, actually...
>> >
>> > We could change it ever day, so that a different diety was invoked
>> > each time. I really would like to hear a bunch of fundies saying
>> > "under Allah" (which, in fact, means "under god," but somehow I don't
>> > think they'd get along with it) or "under the goddess"
>> > (hmmm...interesting implication there) or even "under no god."
>>
>> "Under all the gods" would get those fundies, too!
> And would continue to offent the atheists, probably the agnostics, and
> (I hope) everybody who believes in a secular state, regardless of
> their own religious beliefs.
And (just to broaden your horizons a bit) those who don't believe in the
kind of subordination implied by "under".
--
Manny Olds (old...@pobox.com) of Riverdale Park, Maryland, USA
"If you intend to try power and tyranny over us, we bondes have resolved
to part company from you and select another leader who will let us keep
our faith as we wish." -- History of Hacon the Good
David G. Bell
<82ohiugqg45d9mchv...@news.panix.com>
v...@redbird.org "Vicki Rosenzweig" wrote:
> Quoth "Steve Franklin" <4uwmeo...@sneakemail.com> on Sun, 7 Jul 2002
> 18:25:45 -0400:
>
> >
> >"Doug Wickstrom" <nims...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> >news:2vbhiu4juah3iumnd...@4ax.com...
> >> On Sun, 7 Jul 2002 19:30:29 +0000 (UTC), in message
> >> <slrnaih5ml....@panix3.panix.com>
> >> Randolph Fritz <rand...@panix.com> excited the ether to say:
> >>
> >> >We could change it ever day, so that a different diety was invoked
> >>
> >> Pet peeve alert:
> >>
> >> D E I T Y
> >>
> >> End pet peeve alert.
> >>
> >You know, out of an entire manuscript I had published back in the late 80s,
> >that was the ONLY word I spelled wrong, 2 out of 3 times. Give the guy a
> >break. How often does the average person use the word anyway?
> >
> At least three times.
>
> Of course, it doesn't help that that misspelling got into the Unix
> spell program. (It may have been taken out by now, at least in some
> Unices.)
There was a freeware DOS program, around 1990, that had a terrible list
of correct spellings. I went through it by hand, and deleted a lot of
exotic words, and corrected many others. It looked like a personal
project, with the spelling list biased towards that person's use, but
the wrong stuff was so often so incredibly obvious.
--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.
Mr. Punch's Advice to a Young Man About to Become a Farmer:
"Marry, instead."
Kip Williams
> On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 12:49:20 +1000, "Fluff" <sno...@optushome.com.au>
> typed
>
>
>>"Randolph Fritz" <rand...@panix.com> wrote in message
>>news:slrnaih5ml....@panix3.panix.com...
>>
>>>Two words, actually...
>>>
>>>We could change it ever day, so that a different diety was invoked
>>>each time. I really would like to hear a bunch of fundies saying
>>>"under Allah" (which, in fact, means "under god," but somehow I don't
>>>think they'd get along with it) or "under the goddess"
>>>(hmmm...interesting implication there) or even "under no god."
>>>
>>
>>
>>How about "Under the Jolly Green Giant"?
>>
>
> One day, in "Life in Hell", Bongo, Binky's son, the rabbit with one
> ear, sat at his desk in class and recited:
>
> I pledge allegiance to Frank Zappa of the United Mutations of America
> and to the Duke of Prunes and Grand Wazoo for which he stands.
>
> One size, excentrifugal, with yellow sharks and hot rats for all.
>
> (Bongo's response to glaring teacher after the above: "The present-day
> composer refuses to die!")
>
> http://www.mich.com/~drhanna/pledge93.htm
>
> ((If i can read the teeny lettering on the side of the panels, this
> strip appeared on 12/17/93, thirteen days after FZ died. Quick
> work.))
We went to the Army Transportation Museum at Ft. Eustis yesterday
afternoon, to see how things were going. I was sorry I had to miss
the Flying Wing, the Jet Pack, and the nasty-looking platform you
stand on that has a huge propellor underneath. All these are
apparently earmarked for a new section that hasn't opened yet. They
do still have the big green four-legged pneumatic walker that looks
like Lucas cribbed from it for the Star Wars series.
Anyway, we were looking at an exhibit of fortified trucks (from
'hardened convoys' in Vietnam), with colorful names like "Iron
Butterfly," "Born Loser," and the one that I was particularly
tickled to see, "Uncle Meat."
Incidentally, the museum still has _Bill Mauldin's Army_ for sale.
Best collection of his stuff I've seen yet.
Lori Coulson
> Wouldn't make much sense, "God" is a general catch-all term that covers the
> vauge religious beliefs of the vast majority of Americans. Allah refferences
> a specific minor (relative to the US) based creed or 'goddess' which is not
> an actual religious belief in the first place.
Ahem, before you go stating that "Goddess" is not an actual religious
belief, check out www.witchvox.com, www.caw.org (the
Goddess-worshiping organization of which I _am_ a member), and texts
such as _Drawing Down the Moon_ by Margot Adler (of NPR). Another
Pagan, Goddess worshipping organization is the Covenant of the
Goddess.
Publications also include (but are not limited to) _PanGaia_,
_Circle_, _Sagewoman_, _The Crone Chronicles_, and the now-in-limbo,
granddaddy of 'em all _Green Egg_.
Lori R. Coulson
Church of All Worlds, 3rd Circle
Manny Olds
> such as _Drawing Down the Moon_ by Margot Adler (of NPR). Another
If you do, please tear out the chapter on Asatru and burn it. It will
mislead you severely.
--
Manny Olds (old...@pobox.com) of Riverdale Park, Maryland, USA
Vingolf Fellowship (http://www.vingolf.org/)
Frigga's Web (http://www.friggasweb.org)
Reeves Hall of Frigga's Web (http://www.reeves-hall.org/)
Asatru-U Project (http://www.asatru-u.org)
David Dyer-Bennet
*You* may think your pledge is just worthless words, but many of us do
not feel that way.
mike weber
>Incidentally, the museum still has _Bill Mauldin's Army_ for sale.
>Best collection of his stuff I've seen yet.
Fer sure. I've got a copy somewhere 'round here.
mike weber
typed
>*You* may think your pledge is just worthless words, but many of us do
>not feel that way.
Oaths sworn under duress are invalid.
Robert Sneddon
writes
>Lori Coulson <OV...@juno.com> wrote:
>> such as _Drawing Down the Moon_ by Margot Adler (of NPR). Another
>
>If you do, please tear out the chapter on Asatru and burn it. It will
>mislead you severely.
>
A friend of mine who is in "seminary college" training to be a fire
ritual shaman (Norse tendency) has a Black Library of bad pagan
publishing; they're coming out faster than he can collect them.
Charity stores are a good source of spangles and bangles Wicca books,
but for the hard-core stupidity he has to seek out those tiny shops with
the curtained-off display window and a photocopy of a flyer with a
pentacle on it advertising some kind of expensive weekend course in a
field near a stone circle somewhere.
--
Robert Sneddon nojay (at) nojay (dot) fsnet (dot) co (dot) uk
Manny Olds
> In article <agcd4a$8ss$1...@news1.Radix.Net>, Manny Olds <old...@pobox.com>
> writes
>>Lori Coulson <OV...@juno.com> wrote:
>>> such as _Drawing Down the Moon_ by Margot Adler (of NPR). Another
>>
>>If you do, please tear out the chapter on Asatru and burn it. It will
>>mislead you severely.
>>
> A friend of mine who is in "seminary college" training to be a fire
> ritual shaman (Norse tendency) has a Black Library of bad pagan
> publishing; they're coming out faster than he can collect them.
Two things trouble me about the Asatru material in DDTM. First, it gets
such wide distribution into a population that has not been inoculated
against it. And so it is a lot of work to treat the symptoms a case at a
time. And people just keep on recommending it to virgin populations.
Second, Adler is supposed to be a journalist. That buys her writing a lot
of credibility. Then she admits that she doesn't like or understand Asatru
and couldn't steel herself to do proper research--yet she included it
anyway. (And next to Feraferia, to show how seriously she misunderstands
the idea of reconstruction.) That is unprofessional, IMO.
I can understand how she completely missed the implications of hard
polytheism on getting an assortment of sources. (She talked almost
exclusively to devotees of one god, AFAIK.) But then there are the
just-plain-stupidities of claiming that a group is male-dominated and
anti-feminist and all--when more than half the national leaders she quotes
herself are women.
Really, just tear out that chapter.
--
Manny Olds (old...@pobox.com) of Riverdale Park, Maryland, USA
"There is, however, a limit at which forbearance ceases to be a virtue."
-- Edmund Burke
Michael J. Lowrey
>
> Manny Olds <old...@pobox.com> writes
> >Lori Coulson <OV...@juno.com> wrote:
> >> such as _Drawing Down the Moon_ by Margot Adler (of NPR). Another
> >
> >If you do, please tear out the chapter on Asatru and burn it. It will
> >mislead you severely.
> >
>
> A friend of mine who is in "seminary college" training to be a fire
> ritual shaman (Norse tendency) has a Black Library of bad pagan
> publishing; they're coming out faster than he can collect them.
>
> Charity stores are a good source of spangles and bangles Wicca books,
> but for the hard-core stupidity he has to seek out those tiny shops with
> the curtained-off display window and a photocopy of a flyer with a
> pentacle on it advertising some kind of expensive weekend course in a
> field near a stone circle somewhere.
I was in Marquette University[1]'s library once, and looked
at their holdings on Cherokee culture. Sadly, they included
a book of "spangles and bangles" paganism by a person
purporting to be a Cherokee shamaness. She included helpful
tables relating the seven directions to seven gemstones
(none of which, ISTR, occur in Cherokee territory, and
indeed few in North America); and her explanation of the
Cherokee memories of Atlantis.
[1] Major Jesuit-run Catholic university here in Milwaukee.
--
Orange Mike
knows plenty of honest pagans
despises shabby crap like this, from ANYBODY
cd skogsberg
>> such as _Drawing Down the Moon_ by Margot Adler (of NPR). Another
>If you do, please tear out the chapter on Asatru and burn it. It will
>mislead you severely.
EXPN, please?
/cd
--
It's a lovely abstract ideal, and it's the true heir of enlightenment
rationalism, and it's wrong. -- Graydon Saunders
Manny Olds
> Manny Olds <old...@pobox.com> wrote:
>>Lori Coulson <OV...@juno.com> wrote:
>>> such as _Drawing Down the Moon_ by Margot Adler (of NPR). Another
>>If you do, please tear out the chapter on Asatru and burn it. It will
>>mislead you severely.
> EXPN, please?
Is that a request for a short expansion?
--
Manny Olds (old...@pobox.com) of Riverdale Park, Maryland, USA
"Getting on the net and expecting everyone to ignore standards, and to do it
your way makes as much sense as blotting Odhin so you can tell him how to run
his life." -- Lissa Potter
Kip Williams
> On Mon, 08 Jul 2002 12:08:51 GMT, Kip Williams <ki...@cox.net> typed
>
>
>>Incidentally, the museum still has _Bill Mauldin's Army_ for sale.
>>Best collection of his stuff I've seen yet.
>
>
> Fer sure. I've got a copy somewhere 'round here.
I remember you mentioning it, and may I commend your taste? Yes!
I especially like the wealth of his earlier stuff, when he was
drawing carefully, in a style that reminded me of Robert McCloskey.
Ed Dravecky III
> Randolph Fritz <rand...@panix.com> excited the ether to say:
>
> D E I T Y
> End pet peeve alert.
No, it's 'diety' when you mean for people to say "one nation,
under Atkins" or "under Feingold" or "under The ZONE" and so on.
--
Ed Dravecky III - Addison, Texas
Celebrate freedom--read a banned book!
Leah Smith
Fluff wrote:
There are several churches around here that now have "under God" on their
signs.
This feels strange. Even though I'm not an atheist, I don't think the
state should have "under G-d" in the pledge, and I do not say it. I do
however, on occasion pray for the country.
-Leah
David Dyer-Bennet
> On 08 Jul 2002 11:31:24 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net>
> typed
>
>
> >*You* may think your pledge is just worthless words, but many of us do
> >not feel that way.
>
> Oaths sworn under duress are invalid.
Yes, but I'm going to wait until they actually apply duress to me to
worry about it.
mike weber
typed
>mike weber <mike....@electronictiger.com> writes:
>
>> On 08 Jul 2002 11:31:24 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net>
>> typed
>>
>>
>> >*You* may think your pledge is just worthless words, but many of us do
>> >not feel that way.
>>
>> Oaths sworn under duress are invalid.
>
>Yes, but I'm going to wait until they actually apply duress to me to
>worry about it.
Third grade is, almost by definition, 100% duress.
mike weber
>mike weber wrote:
>> On Mon, 08 Jul 2002 12:08:51 GMT, Kip Williams <ki...@cox.net> typed
>>
>>
>>>Incidentally, the museum still has _Bill Mauldin's Army_ for sale.
>>>Best collection of his stuff I've seen yet.
>>
>>
>> Fer sure. I've got a copy somewhere 'round here.
>
>I remember you mentioning it, and may I commend your taste? Yes!
>
>I especially like the wealth of his earlier stuff, when he was
>drawing carefully, in a style that reminded me of Robert McCloskey.
I just recently picked up a copy of "Back Home".
We were in Chicago when Adlai Stevenson died, and Mauldin's memorial
was simply a pair of old shoes, one on its side so you could see the
hole in the bottom.
I also loved his early take on the Civil Rights movement in the South
-- couple of stereotypical rednecks with clubs and so on "Let that one
go -- he says he don't wanna be mah equal..."
mike weber
<no...@nospam.demon.co.uk> typed
> A friend of mine who is in "seminary college" training to be a fire
>ritual shaman (Norse tendency) has a Black Library of bad pagan
>publishing; they're coming out faster than he can collect them.
>
> Charity stores are a good source of spangles and bangles Wicca books,
>but for the hard-core stupidity he has to seek out those tiny shops with
>the curtained-off display window and a photocopy of a flyer with a
>pentacle on it advertising some kind of expensive weekend course in a
>field near a stone circle somewhere.
And sy "hi" to Giles and Anya.
Kip Williams
> On Mon, 08 Jul 2002 23:10:53 GMT, Kip Williams <ki...@cox.net> typed
>
>
>>mike weber wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 08 Jul 2002 12:08:51 GMT, Kip Williams <ki...@cox.net> typed
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Incidentally, the museum still has _Bill Mauldin's Army_ for sale.
>>>>Best collection of his stuff I've seen yet.
>>>
>>>
>>>Fer sure. I've got a copy somewhere 'round here.
>>
>>I remember you mentioning it, and may I commend your taste? Yes!
>>
>>I especially like the wealth of his earlier stuff, when he was
>>drawing carefully, in a style that reminded me of Robert McCloskey.
>
>
> I just recently picked up a copy of "Back Home".
>
> We were in Chicago when Adlai Stevenson died, and Mauldin's memorial
> was simply a pair of old shoes, one on its side so you could see the
> hole in the bottom.
>
> I also loved his early take on the Civil Rights movement in the South
> -- couple of stereotypical rednecks with clubs and so on "Let that one
> go -- he says he don't wanna be mah equal..."
That's a real eye-opener of a book, and you can see him getting more
radical as a reaction to the treatment they got "back home." Not
that he was calm or sedentary before. Sometimes I read "Up Front"
and then go right on through "Back Home" while I'm at it. As a
cartoonist and writer, Mauldin was at the top of his profession.
John Smith
>John Smith <bit...@biteme.org> writes:
>
>> David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Priscilla Ballou <vze2...@verizon.net> writes:
>> >
>> >> In article <slrnaih5ml....@panix3.panix.com>,
>> >> Randolph Fritz <rand...@panix.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Two words, actually...
>> >> >
>> >> > We could change it ever day, so that a different diety was invoked
>> >> > each time. I really would like to hear a bunch of fundies saying
>> >> > "under Allah" (which, in fact, means "under god," but somehow I don't
>> >> > think they'd get along with it) or "under the goddess"
>> >> > (hmmm...interesting implication there) or even "under no god."
>> >>
>> >> "Under all the gods" would get those fundies, too!
>> >
>> >And would continue to offent the atheists, probably the agnostics, and
>> >(I hope) everybody who believes in a secular state, regardless of
>> >their own religious beliefs.
>>
>> Or at least anyone who is loser enough to care about something so
>> meaningless.
>
>*You* may think your pledge is just worthless words, but many of us do
>not feel that way.
They are worthless words when one is compelled to recite them, and they are
worthless words to anyone who thinks they are worthless words. And, in fact,
words, as such, are worthless to you and everyone else. It is the
_sentiment_ that has meaning. Words are just symbols.
The bottom line is, to the guy who filed this lawsuit, they are worthless
words, but he's still loser enough to care.
(I suspect I agree with you, more or less, on the sentiment those words
express, though probably with less jingoism.)
John Smith
>On 08 Jul 2002 11:31:24 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net>
>typed
>
>
>>*You* may think your pledge is just worthless words, but many of us do
>>not feel that way.
>
>Oaths sworn under duress are invalid.
Note that this case is not about a 3rd grader being forced to recite the PoA
under duress. That issue was settled in 1943, when the Supreme Court rules
it unconstitutional to force anyone to recite the pledge (and that was the
original version without "under God"), or salute the flag. See _WEST
VIRGINIA STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION v. BARNETTE, 319 U.S. 624 (1943)_, in
which the SCOTUS reversed Minersville School District v. Gobitis (only three
years old at the time).
This is about using the force of law to prevent everyone *else* from
reciting the pledge if they so choose, because this loser's kid is so much a
loser herself (in her father's eyes) that even hearing anyone else profess a
belief in God will cause irreparable damage to her tender little psyche.
You should read the ruling. The moron (and his even stupider lawyer)
demanded the court order the President to change the law. Guess actually
reading the Constitution isn't required to pass the California bar.
John Smith
>On 08 Jul 2002 18:44:02 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net>
>typed
>
>>mike weber <mike....@electronictiger.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 08 Jul 2002 11:31:24 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net>
>>> typed
>>>
>>>
>>> >*You* may think your pledge is just worthless words, but many of us do
>>> >not feel that way.
>>>
>>> Oaths sworn under duress are invalid.
>>
>>Yes, but I'm going to wait until they actually apply duress to me to
>>worry about it.
>
>Third grade is, almost by definition, 100% duress.
You really think that this guy wasn't aware that his daughter had the right
to refuse to participate? Or do you just believe that the kid's so messed up
(which is possible, considering what a loser the father is) that she
wouldn't obey her father's instruction to do so?
If he'd told the kid not to participate, in front of the teacher, and the
kid had caught any form of shit over it at all, *then* he'd have had a real,
genuine lawsuit, and both the teacher and district would have gotten quite
justifiably reamed. But this was *never* about his kid not being coerced
into reciting the pledge, it was about preventing everyone else from
expressing any form of religious belief in front of his rat.
And on that score, he's going to lose, and rightly so.
O. Deus
Still not an actual religion, no more than Nazi attempts to manufacture
pagan religions. It's a manufactured religion, a trendy attempt to revive
vaugely pagan practices.
O Deus
> "O. Deus" <od...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> >>>> > We could change it ever day, so that a different diety was invoked
> >>>> > each time. I really would like to hear a bunch of fundies saying
> >>>> > "under Allah" (which, in fact, means "under god," but somehow I don't
> >>>> > think they'd get along with it) or "under the goddess"
> >>>> > (hmmm...interesting implication there) or even "under no god."
>
> >>>And would continue to offent the atheists, probably the agnostics, and
> >>>(I hope) everybody who believes in a secular state, regardless of
> >>>their own religious beliefs.
> >>
> >>Or at least anyone who is loser enough to care about something so
> >>meaningless.
> >
> >
> >Which apparently would include you, since you took the time to comment on
> >it...
> >
> You're gonna be fun for a *long* time.
If you're so intelectually and socially deprived as to depend on
trolling as an outlet, I can't help but pity you.
mike weber
typed
Only if they decide to change the laws.
mike weber
>That's a real eye-opener of a book, and you can see him getting more
>radical as a reaction to the treatment they got "back home." Not
>that he was calm or sedentary before. Sometimes I read "Up Front"
>and then go right on through "Back Home" while I'm at it. As a
>cartoonist and writer, Mauldin was at the top of his profession.
Have you read "Bill Mauldin's Korea"?
Kip Williams
> On Tue, 09 Jul 2002 01:14:27 GMT, Kip Williams <ki...@cox.net> typed
>
>
>
>>That's a real eye-opener of a book, and you can see him getting more
>>radical as a reaction to the treatment they got "back home." Not
>>that he was calm or sedentary before. Sometimes I read "Up Front"
>>and then go right on through "Back Home" while I'm at it. As a
>>cartoonist and writer, Mauldin was at the top of his profession.
>
>
> Have you read "Bill Mauldin's Korea"?
No, I haven't run across a copy so far. I'll try and see if I can
find one.
John Smith
John Smith
Wanna bet? Supremes are gonna shot this one in the head, as they often to do
the 9th.
Doug Wickstrom
<n3gjiu45i7dq9eqlj...@4ax.com>
mike weber <mike....@electronictiger.com> excited the ether to
say:
>On 08 Jul 2002 11:31:24 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net>
>typed
>
>
>>*You* may think your pledge is just worthless words, but many of us do
>>not feel that way.
>
>Oaths sworn under duress are invalid.
"Greetings from your President"
--
Doug Wickstrom <nims...@attbi.com>
"I know, indeed, the evil of that I purpose; but my inclination gets the
better of my judgement." --Euripides
cd skogsberg
>cd skogsberg <d97...@dtek.chalmers.se> wrote:
>> Manny Olds <old...@pobox.com> wrote:
>>>Lori Coulson <OV...@juno.com> wrote:
>>>> such as _Drawing Down the Moon_ by Margot Adler (of NPR). Another
>>>If you do, please tear out the chapter on Asatru and burn it. It will
>>>mislead you severely.
>> EXPN, please?
>Is that a request for a short expansion?
Yes. What is it about it that's misleading? (I haven't read the book,
so I'm genuinely curious here.)
/cd
--
I will not deny that nothing can defend
from the helplesness that's cutting deep inside,
and I cannot prevent the thought that nothing's real.
Seems I've waited years for this day to end.
-- VNV Nation, "Rubicon"
David G. Bell
<iiakiugtbdpva09sr...@4ax.com>
mike....@electronictiger.com "mike weber" wrote:
> On 08 Jul 2002 18:44:02 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net>
> typed
>
> >mike weber <mike....@electronictiger.com> writes:
> >
> >> On 08 Jul 2002 11:31:24 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net>
> >> typed
> >>
> >>
> >> >*You* may think your pledge is just worthless words, but many of us do
> >> >not feel that way.
> >>
> >> Oaths sworn under duress are invalid.
> >
> >Yes, but I'm going to wait until they actually apply duress to me to
> >worry about it.
>
> Third grade is, almost by definition, 100% duress.
Off on a tangent a little, what's the position on third-graders giving
evidence in court...
...under oath?
--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.
Mr. Punch's Advice to a Young Man About to Become a Farmer:
"Marry, instead."
Manny Olds
> Manny Olds <old...@pobox.com> wrote:
>>cd skogsberg <d97...@dtek.chalmers.se> wrote:
>>> Manny Olds <old...@pobox.com> wrote:
>>>>Lori Coulson <OV...@juno.com> wrote:
>>>>> such as _Drawing Down the Moon_ by Margot Adler (of NPR). Another
>>>>If you do, please tear out the chapter on Asatru and burn it. It will
>>>>mislead you severely.
>>> EXPN, please?
>>Is that a request for a short expansion?
> Yes. What is it about it that's misleading? (I haven't read the book,
> so I'm genuinely curious here.)
Here are some notes I wrote up on this in case someone asked. This is Far
Too Much Information for practically everyone. You have been warned.
First, a global warning. A lot of the facts she reports are wrong. Wrong
in different ways and to different degrees, but it would be a mistake to
use this chapter at all as a guide to Asatru. I usually recommend that
people just tear it out and use it as kindling, so they get some good out
of it. I stand by that.
I am going to indulge one specific sarcastic nitpick. "Some good
scholarship"? From the person who thinks that Feraferia is reconstructing
some real past religion? From someone who really believes that One Great
Universal Goddess Cult bushwah? Ptui!
Okay, so what are the substantial problems with this section? I gather
them into two baskets: (1) Bad Reporting and (2) Her Odd Bias.
(1) Bad Reporting
I have to give you a bit of historic rundown to explain what she *should*
have covered. The Viking Brotherhood, which later changed its name to the
Asatru Free Assembly (AFA), was founded in 1971. By the late 1970s, there
was a big ongoing struggle over genes and history (to be as brief as
possible). In 1978, some hardcore extremists split off and formed a
national socialist group. But this didn't settle it and by the mid-80s
there was pretty much open warfare. In 1987, the AFA shut down and the
Asatru Alliance (AA) and the Ring of Troth (RoT) were formed out of the
remains. Then in 1996, Steve McNallen founded another AFA, the Asatru Folk
Assembly.
The RoT addresses itself to those who "feel drawn to the ways of the
Heathen North", who "share a defining personal loyalty to...the gods and
goddesses of the Northlands". The AA has settled on the official position
that they promote Northern European Culture, that religion is a part of
culture, and that any individual kindred is responsible for deciding whom
to admit and whom to exclude. The current AFA believes in "innate
spiritual impulses" inherited from one's ancestors and their official
position is (as far as I can make out) that someone with no Northern
European heritage should (in fact, ought to want to) look elsewhere.
The second edition of Adler's book was completed in 1986. She was supposed
to be interviewing the key players in this whole brouhaha just as the pot
hit boil. All the people that ended up forming the (more liberal) AA and
RoT were prominent leader-types in AFA#1 in 1985. But there is no trace of
them or of non-racialist heathenism in her writeup.
She latched onto Steve McNallen as her main source and never saw what he
did not show her. I can understand how this happened, but it doesn't fix
the problem: her section is a retouched snapshot of what turned out to be
only one faction in a big schism. It is the official Vatican version of
Christianity before the Protestant Reformation. It was inaccurate when it
was written; by the 1997 edition, it was embarassingly out of date.
I also find it amusing that she manages to maintain her position that
Asatru is male-dominated even though four out of the six Asatru
elder-types she names as sources are women.
(2) Her Odd Bias
As we discussed before, Adler has an definite opinion of what a "religion"
is. And that doesn't include much reference to religion. She may slide by
when she is covering wiccanesque pagans or CAW, but she doesn't get away
with it when she is covering Asatru. Asatru is a religion with plenty of
religious features. We have gods, we have belief, we have orthodoxy and
orthopraxy, etc. And she is so blinded a priori definition of "pagan path"
that she (apparently) simply does not see a lot of Asatru when it is laid
out in front of her.
For example, look at her material on "what are the gods". She describes
two possibilities: that they are "examples and models" and that they are
"numinous" "ancient, non-verbal wisdom". But most heathens believe that
the gods are real, individual beings. We are agnostic on details,
generally, but our belief in the reality of the gods is fundamental.
Elsewhere, Adler tells us that a "real religious development has been
taking place with interest in magic, ritual, and runes." That is a pretty
narrow (and trivial) view of "real religion". I would say that a real
religious development has take place when you start to understand how your
cosmology ramifies in your ethos or when you get a feel for where "normal"
Asatru is and how far off "normal" puts you outside the religion.
One writer has composed what he calls the Four Bedposts of Asatru, which I
summarize: (1) troth (a particular kind of relationship) with the gods of
our particular pantheon; (2) blot & sumbel & Yule; (3) ethos based on a
particular view of Wyrd; (3) reconstruction based on best available
information about the historic religions and on sensibly-vetted UPG. Magic
is "gravy".
I don't think that Adler covered even one of the bedposts in a useful way.
If you read that section and can't fill in significant details or
explanations on my sketch of the bedposts, then you are evidence that I am
right.
But then, I am just a member of a troubling and confusing "path" that
"just won't go away". Barf.
Manny Olds (old...@pobox.com) of Riverdale Park, Maryland, USA
"As for magic, to throw another wrench into the works, it is possible also
to believe that magical acts are possible, while at the same time
remaining convinced that the overwhelming bulk of the claims made by the
collected wizard corps of the alternative/ambient-wierdness community in
modern North America is a lot of self-delusion, wanking and horseshit."
-- William Bainbridge
Arthur D. Hlavaty
Hey, why don't you guys step outside to settle this?
--
Arthur D.Hlavaty hla...@panix.com
Church of the SuperGenius in Wile E. we trust
E-zine available on request
Arthur D. Hlavaty
Maybe if you hadn't taken that particular pseudonym, you wouldn't have
the delusion that you are capable of defining "actual religion."
cd skogsberg
>cd skogsberg <d97...@dtek.chalmers.se> wrote:
>> Manny Olds <old...@pobox.com> wrote:
>>>cd skogsberg <d97...@dtek.chalmers.se> wrote:
>>>> Manny Olds <old...@pobox.com> wrote:
>>>>>Lori Coulson <OV...@juno.com> wrote:
>
>>>>>> such as _Drawing Down the Moon_ by Margot Adler (of NPR). Another
>
>>>>>If you do, please tear out the chapter on Asatru and burn it. It will
>>>>>mislead you severely.
>
>>>> EXPN, please?
>
>>>Is that a request for a short expansion?
>
>> Yes. What is it about it that's misleading? (I haven't read the book,
>> so I'm genuinely curious here.)
>
>Here are some notes I wrote up on this in case someone asked. This is Far
>Too Much Information for practically everyone. You have been warned.
Thank you, that was fascinating.
/cd
--
"It's a bright wonderful world where Barney is a costume full of
animate proto-matter and the Teletubbies are incarnations of fractal
chaos with a message only our future youth can understand and embrace.
Welcome home." -- Frank M. Adams
Lori Coulson
> Lori Coulson <OV...@juno.com> wrote:
> > such as _Drawing Down the Moon_ by Margot Adler (of NPR). Another
>
> If you do, please tear out the chapter on Asatru and burn it. It will
> mislead you severely.
Oops, I'd forgotten about that section! There's lots of stuff to stay
away from, or to read with a salt shaker beside you (most of Llewellyn
Publications, for instance).
Manny, what do you think of Freya Aswynn's book, _Leaves of
Yggdrasil_?
Lori Coulson
Steve Smith
>
> "O. Deus" <od...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message news:<agav3m$u...@dispatch.concentric.net>...
> > Wouldn't make much sense, "God" is a general catch-all term that covers the
> > vauge religious beliefs of the vast majority of Americans. Allah refferences
> > a specific minor (relative to the US) based creed or 'goddess' which is not
> > an actual religious belief in the first place.
>
> Ahem, before you go stating that "Goddess" is not an actual religious
> belief, check out www.witchvox.com, www.caw.org (the
> Goddess-worshiping organization of which I _am_ a member), and texts
> Goddess.
>
> Publications also include (but are not limited to) _PanGaia_,
> _Circle_, _Sagewoman_, _The Crone Chronicles_, and the now-in-limbo,
> granddaddy of 'em all _Green Egg_.
Uh, no. Our President has said that it's not a real religion.
(http://www.webwhiteblue.org/debate/2000-10-15/bush/question/)
Disagreeing with him is treason, you know, according to his chief law
enforcement officer.
--
Steve Smith s...@aginc.net
Agincourt Computing http://www.aginc.net
"Truth is stranger than fiction because fiction has to make sense."
Steve Smith
Manny Olds
> Manny, what do you think of Freya Aswynn's book, _Leaves of
> Yggdrasil_?
I'm not a rune-into person. But I bought this book and read it. What
strikes me is that she is very clear about what is from actual precedent
and what is her own UPG (er, "Unsubstantianted Personal Gnosis"). Her
view of the runes is very influential, but I do know some runesters that
don't agree wth all her interpretations. And she explains her divinatory
methods as well as anyone could, I think.
This has been replaced by _Northern Mysteries and Magic_, BTW, which is
pretty much a new and improved edition that comes with a rune-galdor CD. I
don't know how effective her chanting is, but I find the "hagalaz" track
has great entertainment value. I haven't bought this one, so I have not
read the book.
--
Manny Olds (old...@pobox.com) of Riverdale Park, Maryland, USA
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not
become a monster. For when you look into an abyss, the abyss also looks
into you." -- Nietzsche
Steve Smith
> Still not an actual religion, no more than Nazi attempts to manufacture
> pagan religions. It's a manufactured religion, a trendy attempt to revive
> vaugely pagan practices.
So how is this less "real" than any other religion? Doesn't have
Jerusalem as a Holy City? No Holy Book Direct From God? No detailed
description of required/forbidden sexual practices? No TV preachers?
Manny Olds
> Still not an actual religion, no more than Nazi attempts to manufacture
> pagan religions. It's a manufactured religion, a trendy attempt to revive
> vaugely pagan practices.
Just a kind of side note for those who have an ear to hear...The Nazis
were actually much more into promoting their own brand of Vigorous Civic
Christianity than any pagan religion, although they did appropriate some
old pagan symbols to evoke cultural pride. In fact, they were quite
displeased with those who did practice the old religion; a number of them
ended up in the camps.
(Some of the Nazi leaders dabbled in occultic stuff, but that was not
really "pagan religion" either, no more than Methodist kids playing with a
Ouija board.)
--
Manny Olds (old...@pobox.com) of Riverdale Park, Maryland, USA
who is pretty much resigned to the loss of the swastika as an emblem of
Thor for a good long while
O Deus
Is this will in any way enhanced by your jaunty tin foil hat which
allows you to recieve secret messages from our Martian masters?
O Deus
> > > Wouldn't make much sense, "God" is a general catch-all term that covers the
> > > vauge religious beliefs of the vast majority of Americans. Allah refferences
> > > a specific minor (relative to the US) based creed or 'goddess' which is not
> > > an actual religious belief in the first place.
> Uh, no. Our President has said that it's not a real religion.
> (http://www.webwhiteblue.org/debate/2000-10-15/bush/question/)
> Disagreeing with him is treason, you know, according to his chief law
> enforcement officer.
Funny how every argument seems to come down to grousing about W, no
matter how off-topic. Reminds me of the old days when every argument
would sooner or later turn into Clinton-bashing. I really think it's
time for a variation of Godwin's Law when it comes to mentioning
Clinton\Bush in completely irrelevant contexts.
O Deus
> "O. Deus" wrote:
>
> > Still not an actual religion, no more than Nazi attempts to manufacture
> > pagan religions. It's a manufactured religion, a trendy attempt to revive
> > vaugely pagan practices.
>
> So how is this less "real" than any other religion? Doesn't have
> Jerusalem as a Holy City? No Holy Book Direct From God? No detailed
> description of required/forbidden sexual practices? No TV preachers?
At least four centuries of widespread practice with a chain of
continuity for starters if they want to seriously compete with
Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Bhuddism and the big boys.
O Deus
> O. Deus <od...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
> > Still not an actual religion, no more than Nazi attempts to manufacture
> > pagan religions. It's a manufactured religion, a trendy attempt to revive
> > vaugely pagan practices.
> (Some of the Nazi leaders dabbled in occultic stuff, but that was not
> really "pagan religion" either, no more than Methodist kids playing with a
> Ouija board.)
Or Methodist kids buying True Magick, New Generation Witchcraft or
Green Witchcraft or any of the other Wicca for Dummies equivalents and
spouting off about the natural power of the goddess and their link to
the earth without ever viewing it as anything except a trendy
accessory than a deeply held spirtual belief passed on through the
generations.
Manny Olds
When I was in high school, a lot of kids were playing with being
Christian. It's the age for it.
--
Manny Olds (old...@pobox.com) of Riverdale Park, Maryland, USA
"Legislation against new religions is often inspired by the self-interest
of established religions, which, like any business, resent competition and
the loss of their market share."
-- Hexham & Poewe, _New Religions as Global Cultures_
Nancy Lebovitz
Manny Olds <old...@pobox.com> wrote:
>O. Deus <od...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>> Still not an actual religion, no more than Nazi attempts to manufacture
>> pagan religions. It's a manufactured religion, a trendy attempt to revive
>> vaugely pagan practices.
>
>Just a kind of side note for those who have an ear to hear...The Nazis
>were actually much more into promoting their own brand of Vigorous Civic
>Christianity than any pagan religion, although they did appropriate some
>old pagan symbols to evoke cultural pride. In fact, they were quite
>displeased with those who did practice the old religion; a number of them
>ended up in the camps.
>
>(Some of the Nazi leaders dabbled in occultic stuff, but that was not
>really "pagan religion" either, no more than Methodist kids playing with a
>Ouija board.)
I've heard that the Nazis had plans for eventually getting rid of
Christianity--I don't know whether this is true or if so, whether
there was any serious intention to actually try it.
--
Nancy Lebovitz na...@netaxs.com www.nancybuttons.com 100 new slogans
I want to move to theory. Everything works in theory.
Michael J. Lowrey
>
> In article <agf3m0$mn6$1...@news1.Radix.Net>,
> Manny Olds <old...@pobox.com> wrote:
> >O. Deus <od...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Still not an actual religion, no more than Nazi attempts to manufacture
> >> pagan religions. It's a manufactured religion, a trendy attempt to revive
> >> vaugely pagan practices.
> >
> >Just a kind of side note for those who have an ear to hear...The Nazis
> >were actually much more into promoting their own brand of Vigorous Civic
> >Christianity than any pagan religion, although they did appropriate some
> >old pagan symbols to evoke cultural pride. In fact, they were quite
> >displeased with those who did practice the old religion; a number of them
> >ended up in the camps.
> >
> >(Some of the Nazi leaders dabbled in occultic stuff, but that was not
> >really "pagan religion" either, no more than Methodist kids playing with a
> >Ouija board.)
>
> I've heard that the Nazis had plans for eventually getting rid of
> Christianity--I don't know whether this is true or if so, whether
> there was any serious intention to actually try it.
There was a lot of very explicit secret stuff captured at
the end of WW2 which shows that they did plan to do so, in
favor of their own bogus neo-Aryan cult; but first they had
to implement their other takeover plans.
--
Michael J. Lowrey
Manny Olds
> Nancy Lebovitz wrote:
>>
> There was a lot of very explicit secret stuff captured at
> the end of WW2 which shows that they did plan to do so, in
> favor of their own bogus neo-Aryan cult; but first they had
> to implement their other takeover plans.
Cite?
--
Manny Olds (old...@pobox.com) of Riverdale Park, Maryland, USA
"This is the global village, and the village, contrary to the city, has
always been a place where conformity, narrow-minded snooping,
denunciation, gossip and poison-pen letters reign. This is what we see
with the Internet now." -- philosopher Alain Finkielkraut
James Nicoll
O Deus <od...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>At least four centuries of widespread practice with a chain of
>continuity for starters if they want to seriously compete with
>Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Bhuddism and the big boys.
"Bhuddism"? What's this, the random h method of spelling
foreign words?
Well, this rule eliminates sects like Fundamentalism from the
list of real religions, for starters. Actually anything relying on the
King James Bible is in trouble, given that the translation is dodgy,
therefore breaking the chain of continuity and the KJV was only translated
in 1611. Won't be the basis for a real religion for another nine years.
Interestingly, I suspect once one discards the sects which are too recent
to be religions the US ceases to be a particularly Christian nation. It
would have a large plurality of Catholics and the other established branches
like Greek Orthodox, Lutherans and such but a lot of the big Protestant
branches wouldn't count. Too young.
What will be particularly interesting is Odeus explaining to
the Mormons that they're too young to count, given that at the rate of
conversion they have maintained since their founding the CoLDS will be
the majority religion in the US sometime in the latter half of this
century.
Ed Dravecky III
> O Deus <od...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> > At least four centuries of widespread practice with a chain of
> > continuity for starters if they want to seriously compete with
> > Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Bhuddism and the big boys.
>
> "Bhuddism"? What's this, the random h method of spelling
> foreign words?
Bhuddism is the marijuana-fueled worship of Pauly Shore, whom you
might remember from such films as "Son-In-Law" and "Bio-Dome."
Its adherents greet every person they meet as "Bhuddy" (this is
often misunderstood as "Buddy). They tend to take jobs as
drive-thru order takers, valet car parkers, or President of the
United States. They receive coded organizational messages in TV
shows as diverse as "Teletubbies" and "MTV's The Real World."
They are harmless, except for the ones that become President.
--
Ed Dravecky III
Addison, Texas
Mary Kay Kare
> They
> do still have the big green four-legged pneumatic walker that looks
> like Lucas cribbed from it for the Star Wars series.
No, he stole the loading cranes from the Oakland waterfront. It was
pretty surreal first time I saw them.
MKK
mike weber
>mike weber wrote:
>> On Tue, 09 Jul 2002 01:14:27 GMT, Kip Williams <ki...@cox.net> typed
>>
>>
>>
>>>That's a real eye-opener of a book, and you can see him getting more
>>>radical as a reaction to the treatment they got "back home." Not
>>>that he was calm or sedentary before. Sometimes I read "Up Front"
>>>and then go right on through "Back Home" while I'm at it. As a
>>>cartoonist and writer, Mauldin was at the top of his profession.
>>
>>
>> Have you read "Bill Mauldin's Korea"?
>
>No, I haven't run across a copy so far. I'll try and see if I can
>find one.
Well worth it. Mauldin's conceit as a corresponednt in that war was
that it was actually Willy who was going over, and his despatche are
in the form of letters to Joe back home, accompanied by cartoons.
--
"He had long ago come to the conclusion that there
were no 'Things Man Was Not Meant To Know'. He was willing
to believe that there were things Man was Too Dumb To
Figure Out." - Mike Kurland
<mike weber> <mike....@electronictiger.com>
Book Reviews & More -- http://electronictiger.com
mike weber
Rather like Bill Mauldin's (i think it was Mauldin -- it's his sort of
narsty) cartoon showing a copy of "Das Kapital" face down next to a
chaise longue by a Malibu swimming pool...
Vicki Rosenzweig
12:40:53 -0400:
>On 08 Jul 2002 11:31:24 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net>
>typed
>
>
>>*You* may think your pledge is just worthless words, but many of us do
>>not feel that way.
>
>Oaths sworn under duress are invalid.
True.
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America,
and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible,
with liberty and justice for all.
<fx: wiping eyes>
--
Vicki Rosenzweig | v...@redbird.org
r.a.sf.f faq at http://www.redbird.org/rassef-faq.html
Vicki Rosenzweig
>In article <c6784f8f.02070...@posting.google.com>,
>O Deus <od...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>>
>>At least four centuries of widespread practice with a chain of
>>continuity for starters if they want to seriously compete with
>>Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Bhuddism and the big boys.
>
> "Bhuddism"? What's this, the random h method of spelling
>foreign words?
>
A dubious attempt at some trufannish street cred, perhaps.
Jay Denebeim
James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
> What will be particularly interesting is Odeus explaining to
>the Mormons that they're too young to count
The baptists aparently don't count them as a religion. My ex-boss's
wife called RLDS a 'cult'. I irritated me more than my ex-wife
though. I took this to mean that a cult is any religion younger than
your own which would include for me, all you christians, islamics and
so ons.
Jay
--
* Jay Denebeim Moderator rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated *
* newsgroup submission address: b5...@deepthot.org *
* moderator contact address: b5mod-...@deepthot.org *
* personal contact address: dene...@deepthot.org *
Del Cotter
James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> said:
>O Deus <od...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>>At least four centuries of widespread practice with a chain of
>>continuity for starters if they want to seriously compete with
>>Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Bhuddism and the big boys.
>
>"Bhuddism"? What's this, the random h method of spelling
>foreign words?
It's the religion of Ghengis Khan, Mahatma Ghandi and the Ghurkas.
(ObDaveBarry: "Mahatma Ghandi and the Ghurkas" would be a good name for
a band)
--
Del Cotter d...@branta.demon.co.uk CONTEXXT - THE 2002 UNICON
Guests of Honour: University of Gloucestershire
Ben Jeapes www.jeapes.ndirect.co.uk Cheltenham 9-11 Aug 2002
Keith Brooke www.infinityplus.co.uk/kbrooke/ www.unicon.org.uk
With Harmuni 2 - Filking in ConteXXt www.chocky.demon.co.uk/harmuni2/
Kip Williams
> Rather like Bill Mauldin's (i think it was Mauldin -- it's his sort of
> narsty) cartoon showing a copy of "Das Kapital" face down next to a
> chaise longue by a Malibu swimming pool...
I have a -tic- about the correct spelling of "Chaise Longue." Only
instead of complaining when I see it misspelled, I find it saves me
a lot of time to merely commend it when I see it spelled correctly.
--
--Kip (Williams) ...at members.cox.net/kipw
"Well, it looks as though my time is up. The old clock on the wall
has melted." --Hugh "Wavy Gravy" Romney
mike weber
typed
>On Mon, 08 Jul 2002 12:40:53 -0400, in message
><n3gjiu45i7dq9eqlj...@4ax.com>
> mike weber <mike....@electronictiger.com> excited the ether to
>say:
>
>>On 08 Jul 2002 11:31:24 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net>
>>typed
>>
>>
>>>*You* may think your pledge is just worthless words, but many of us do
>>>not feel that way.
>>
>>Oaths sworn under duress are invalid.
>
>"Greetings from your President"
Didn't say you couldn't be held to the terms by force majeure, just
that the oath was invalid.
I took *my* oath wilingly -- in the Navy.
mike weber
>mike weber wrote:
>> Rather like Bill Mauldin's (i think it was Mauldin -- it's his sort of
>> narsty) cartoon showing a copy of "Das Kapital" face down next to a
>> chaise longue by a Malibu swimming pool...
>
>I have a -tic- about the correct spelling of "Chaise Longue." Only
>instead of complaining when I see it misspelled, I find it saves me
>a lot of time to merely commend it when I see it spelled correctly.
Hey -- it *could* be a type, ya know.
(Actually, i have a -tic- about it, too.)
John Smith
It's certainly enhanced by the fact that you can't stop responding to me.
O Deus
> In article <c6784f8f.02070...@posting.google.com>,
> O Deus <od...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> >
> >At least four centuries of widespread practice with a chain of
> >continuity for starters if they want to seriously compete with
> >Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Bhuddism and the big boys.
> Well, this rule eliminates sects like Fundamentalism from the
> list of real religions, for starters. Actually anything relying on the
> King James Bible is in trouble, given that the translation is dodgy,
> therefore breaking the chain of continuity and the KJV was only translated
> in 1611.
Maybe for some dogmatists, but any religion that is simply a somewhat
modified version of the original religion and fits within the
parameters of that religion and is generally still considered
Christianity, doesn't pose a problem.
> Won't be the basis for a real religion for another nine years.
> Interestingly, I suspect once one discards the sects which are too recent
> to be religions the US ceases to be a particularly Christian nation. It
> would have a large plurality of Catholics and the other established branches
> like Greek Orthodox, Lutherans and such but a lot of the big Protestant
> branches wouldn't count. Too young.
All Christian sub-branches with the possible exception of Mormons.
> What will be particularly interesting is Odeus explaining to
> the Mormons that they're too young to count, given that at the rate of
> conversion they have maintained since their founding the CoLDS will be
> the majority religion in the US sometime in the latter half of this
> century.
Maybe, maybe not. I wouldn't bet on those studies too hard myself.
O Deus
> On Wed, 10 Jul 2002, in rec.arts.sf.fandom,
> James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> said:
>
> >O Deus <od...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> >>At least four centuries of widespread practice with a chain of
> >>continuity for starters if they want to seriously compete with
> >>Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Bhuddism and the big boys.
> >
> >"Bhuddism"? What's this, the random h method of spelling
> >foreign words?
> It's the religion of Ghengis Khan, Mahatma Ghandi and the Ghurkas.
You people do realize that spelling flames over words derived from
non-Western languages are particularly ridiculous, much like the
endless bickering over the proper spelling of "Al Queda."
(Hunt: There isn't one, there are several variations of transcribing
words from Arabic.)
O Deus
> In article <aghica$1tt$1...@panix1.panix.com>,
> James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> > What will be particularly interesting is Odeus explaining to
> >the Mormons that they're too young to count
>
> The baptists aparently don't count them as a religion. My ex-boss's
> wife called RLDS a 'cult'. I irritated me more than my ex-wife
> though. I took this to mean that a cult is any religion younger than
> your own which would include for me, all you christians, islamics and
> so ons.
My own parameters for calling something a cult would be a system of
beliefs with a still living founder which is reducible to him and
which he can modify at will.
Steve Smith
>
> In article <c6784f8f.02070...@posting.google.com>,
> O Deus <od...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> >
> >At least four centuries of widespread practice with a chain of
> >continuity for starters if they want to seriously compete with
> >Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Bhuddism and the big boys.
> Well, this rule eliminates sects like Fundamentalism from the
> list of real religions, for starters. Actually anything relying on the
> King James Bible is in trouble, given that the translation is dodgy,
> therefore breaking the chain of continuity and the KJV was only translated
> in 1611. Won't be the basis for a real religion for another nine years.
> Interestingly, I suspect once one discards the sects which are too recent
> to be religions the US ceases to be a particularly Christian nation. It
> would have a large plurality of Catholics and the other established branches
> like Greek Orthodox, Lutherans and such but a lot of the big Protestant
> branches wouldn't count. Too young.
No problem. He'll simply define "chain of continuity" to allow or
disallow whatever he wants.
> What will be particularly interesting is Odeus explaining to
> the Mormons that they're too young to count, given that at the rate of
> conversion they have maintained since their founding the CoLDS will be
> the majority religion in the US sometime in the latter half of this
> century.
Yup. Mormons tend to give more mainline Christians the collywobbles.
--
Steve Smith s...@aginc.net
Agincourt Computing http://www.aginc.net
"Truth is stranger than fiction because fiction has to make sense."
Mark Atwood
>
> Yup. Mormons tend to give more mainline Christians the collywobbles.
That's a *feature*, not a bug.
Which reminds me of a wise observation that was told to me once, that
is true and deserves to be propagated.
Mormons, in the US, in general, on average, as a group, look like
ordinary Republican party political conservatives, just like all
the other Republican party political conservatives.
But, assuming they are can often lead to surprises.
To recall a line from the first Dragonlance book: "I am not in his
party. We just happen to be walking the same direction."
--
Mark Atwood | Well done is better than well said.
m...@pobox.com |
http://www.pobox.com/~mra
Arthur D. Hlavaty
wrote:
>In article <aghica$1tt$1...@panix1.panix.com>,
>James Nicoll <jdni...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>> What will be particularly interesting is Odeus explaining to
>>the Mormons that they're too young to count
>
>The baptists aparently don't count them as a religion. My ex-boss's
>wife called RLDS a 'cult'. I irritated me more than my ex-wife
>though. I took this to mean that a cult is any religion younger than
>your own which would include for me, all you christians, islamics and
>so ons.
Some Christians believe that Mormons shouldn't call themselves
Christians because they have too many gods. Ross Pavlac joined a
Christian picket line at a new Mormon church on those grounds.
--
Arthur D.Hlavaty hla...@panix.com
Church of the SuperGenius in Wile E. we trust
E-zine available on request
James Nicoll
Ah, so I can turn a cult into a religion with one single bullet?
Say, that means David Koresh's group is a religion now. Wonder
if they'll be allowed to join that faith-based charities thing?
Jay Denebeim
Arthur D. Hlavaty <hla...@panix.com> wrote:
>Some Christians believe that Mormons shouldn't call themselves
>Christians because they have too many gods. Ross Pavlac joined a
>Christian picket line at a new Mormon church on those grounds.
Well, regular christians have at least 4 with some sects having more
arguably. I don't see how adding more should effect anything.
Ed Dravecky III
> On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 23:52:13 GMT, Kip Williams <ki...@cox.net> typed
> >mike weber wrote:
> > > Rather like Bill Mauldin's (i think it was Mauldin -- it's
> > > his sort of narsty) cartoon showing a copy of "Das Kapital"
> > > face down next to a chaise longue by a Malibu swimming pool...
> >
> > I have a -tic- about the correct spelling of "Chaise Longue."
> > Only instead of complaining when I see it misspelled, I find
> > it saves me a lot of time to merely commend it when I see it
> > spelled correctly.
>
> Hey -- it *could* be a type, ya know.
> (Actually, i have a -tic- about it, too.)
I've grown so inured to spelling errors on usenet that I no longer
have a tic about it. Now I just freshen my breath while still only
consuming two calories doing it so I have a tic-tac about it instead.
--
Ed Dravecky III - Addison, Texas
Worldcon membership for sale, e-mail for details
Keith F. Lynch
> I've grown so inured to spelling errors on usenet that I no longer
> have a tic about it. Now I just freshen my breath while still only
> consuming two calories doing it so I have a tic-tac about it instead.
You'll never "loose" weight at that rate.
--
Keith F. Lynch - k...@keithlynch.net - http://keithlynch.net/
I always welcome replies to my e-mail, postings, and web pages, but
unsolicited bulk e-mail (spam) is not acceptable. Please do not send me
HTML, "rich text," or attachments, as all such email is discarded unread.
Keith F. Lynch
> What will be particularly interesting is Odeus explaining to the
> Mormons that they're too young to count, given that at the rate of
> conversion they have maintained since their founding the CoLDS will
> be the majority religion in the US sometime in the latter half of
> this century.
If I could choose which Christian sect was the One True Religion I'd
choose Mormonism, since you get to BE a god. That sounds like more
fun than sitting around praising God forever. I think that would get
boring after the first few geological ages.
The traditional christian heaven doesn't sound very interesting, since
it obviously doesn't have Internet access. (At least I never see
posts, email, or web pages from there.) And since, as far as I know,
they don't even have books.
Or DO books go to heaven? Maybe we should thank the book burners.
Maybe that's how books go there. All of mine, carefully preserved,
will remain here on earth. Should I put in my will that all my books
and magazines, and a copy of my backup tapes, should be thrown on my
funeral pyre?
The Islamic heaven just has me confused. If everyone gets 72 virgins
for their exclusive use, does that imply that 72/73 of all people
have to die virgins? And doesn't it also imply that each of the 72
virgins gets 72 virgins? Maybe it's workable if there's an infinite
population in heaven, I don't know. But why would anyone want a
virgin? I prefer someone with a little experience.
I'd prefer fannish hheaven. Better known as Eternicon. Where the bid
parties go on forever, as the hour just gets later and later for a
time without end. And the bowl of cashews never runs empty, and they
aren't fattening, and don't even get your hands greasy.
Or perhaps techno-heaven. Paradise with rivets on it. It has the
disadvantage that you have to *build* it, rather than just believing
really really hard, or living a virtuous life, or being killed for
the faith in some spectacularly unpleasant way. And instead of a
relatively inexpensive cremation or burial, you have to have yourself
frozen if you want to get there. But this is counterbalanced by the
fact that it's likely to be REAL, and not just a silly fantasy like
the others.
O Deus
Not today, but in a century or two they might be if they really
develop their beliefs and bring in a few thousand converts a
generation. Religions have started this way before, regardless of the
details of Jesus' or Joseph Smith's life originally.
But like most cults, Koresh's followers aren't likely to make that
transition because their beliefs were nothing special and they were
just troubled people being manipulated around a cult leader's pinkie.
O Deus
> James Nicoll wrote:
> >
> > In article <c6784f8f.02070...@posting.google.com>,
> > O Deus <od...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >At least four centuries of widespread practice with a chain of
> > >continuity for starters if they want to seriously compete with
> > >Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Bhuddism and the big boys.
>
> > Well, this rule eliminates sects like Fundamentalism from the
> > list of real religions, for starters. Actually anything relying on the
> > King James Bible is in trouble, given that the translation is dodgy,
> > therefore breaking the chain of continuity and the KJV was only translated
> > in 1611. Won't be the basis for a real religion for another nine years.
> > Interestingly, I suspect once one discards the sects which are too recent
> > to be religions the US ceases to be a particularly Christian nation. It
> > would have a large plurality of Catholics and the other established branches
> > like Greek Orthodox, Lutherans and such but a lot of the big Protestant
> > branches wouldn't count. Too young.
>
> No problem. He'll simply define "chain of continuity" to allow or
> disallow whatever he wants.
Hardly, chain of continuity simply implies a faith springing from the
beliefs of another existing and widely practiced faith with
significant commonalities in their beliefs so that they are clearly
identifiable as having a common ancestry.
David Dyer-Bennet
> The Islamic heaven just has me confused. If everyone gets 72 virgins
> for their exclusive use, does that imply that 72/73 of all people
> have to die virgins? And doesn't it also imply that each of the 72
> virgins gets 72 virgins? Maybe it's workable if there's an infinite
> population in heaven, I don't know.
They're not part of the population, they're on staff.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, dd...@dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test
John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net
Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/
New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info
Del Cotter
Keith F. Lynch <k...@KeithLynch.net> said:
>The Islamic heaven just has me confused. If everyone gets 72 virgins
>for their exclusive use, does that imply that 72/73 of all people
>have to die virgins? And doesn't it also imply that each of the 72
>virgins gets 72 virgins? Maybe it's workable if there's an infinite
>population in heaven, I don't know.
The "virgins" aren't women who've gone to Islamic heaven, they're
houris. Houris are like angels in the old-fashioned sense, non-human
creations of God, rather than in the modern folk-tradition sense of
humans who have gone to heaven and been given wings and a harp.
>But why would anyone want a
>virgin? I prefer someone with a little experience.
They're thousands of years older than you are (unless God creates a new
batch for every man who dies, I'm not too clear on that part) and
they're only virgins physically, and they're still virgins the next time
and the next. Although since it takes you 10,000 years to finish having
an orgasm, and you've got 72 virgins to satisfy, it's not unreasonable
that they'd grow a new hymen, with 710,000 years to wait.
But don't ask me to explain religion.
--
. . . . Del Cotter d...@branta.demon.co.uk . . . .
JustRead:e:TerryPratchettTheTruth:JeromeKJeromeThreeMenInABoat:WilliamGo
ldmanThePrincessBride:AlastairReynoldsRevelationSpace:GregEganQuarantine
ToRead:KimStanleyRobinsonTheYearsOfRice&Salt:BenJeapesHisMajesty'sStarsh