Lineage from the last Komnenoi of Trebizond
Pierre Aronax
BE9CF8DEAB7ED311B05E...@v003138e.crsrehab.gov.au...
> No-one is known to be descended from any of the last Komnenoi of
Trebizond,
> except the Safavids in Persia through David II's niece Theodora. However,
> many people are related to them, tangentially if you like.
Hmm. If by "the last Komnenoi of Trebizond" you mean here the two last
reigning emperors, I have to disagree again.
Firstly, I think many Venetian families descend from John IV Komnenos (+
1460) through his daughter (and so niece of David II) married with Nicolo
Crispo, lord of the islands of Santorin and Syra. I know of course that her
existence has been questioned, particularly in two articles of M.
Kursanskis, but I'm not convinced by his hypercriticist demonstration, which
contradicts Venetian sources. Through this daughter, we can have a posterity
in the families Crispo, Malipiero, da Prioli, Balbi, Loredano and of course
Cornaro (the last reigning queen of Cyprus Catarina Cornaro was the
granddaughter of this mysterious Trapezuntine princess).
Secondly, we now know (thanks to Massarelli and above all to Ganchou, art.
cit., p. 216, note 4) that Alexios IV had not one but two daughters, the
second becoming the wife of a king of Georgia and procreating three sons. I
have not presently access to my books, but I think it may be possible to
identify this three sons and the king their father. It is possible that we
have here a posterity of the last Komnenoi of Trebizond through the
Bagrations of Georgia (I agree it will not be a posterity of one of the two
last emperors, but of their sister and, through her, of her mother the
empress Theodora Kantakouzčnč, whose ascendancy we discussed in the previous
posts of that thread).
Any comment someone ?
Pierre
norenxaq
Pierre Aronax wrote:
> Stewart, Peter <Peter....@crsrehab.gov.au> a écrit dans le message :
> BE9CF8DEAB7ED311B05E...@v003138e.crsrehab.gov.au...
>
> > No-one is known to be descended from any of the last Komnenoi of
> Trebizond,
> > except the Safavids in Persia through David II's niece Theodora. However,
> > many people are related to them, tangentially if you like.
>
> Hmm. If by "the last Komnenoi of Trebizond" you mean here the two last
> reigning emperors, I have to disagree again.
>
> Firstly, I think many Venetian families descend from John IV Komnenos (+
> 1460) through his daughter (and so niece of David II) married with Nicolo
> Crispo, lord of the islands of Santorin and Syra.
What was her name?
> I know of course that her
> existence has been questioned, particularly in two articles of M.
> Kursanskis, but I'm not convinced by his hypercriticist demonstration, which
> contradicts Venetian sources. Through this daughter, we can have a posterity
> in the families Crispo, Malipiero, da Prioli, Balbi, Loredano and of course
> Cornaro (the last reigning queen of Cyprus Catarina Cornaro was the
> granddaughter of this mysterious Trapezuntine princess).
Are there charts of these families, and if so, where? Could you post some of
them, if possible showing how they connect?
>
>
> Secondly, we now know (thanks to Massarelli and above all to Ganchou, art.
> cit., p. 216, note 4) that Alexios IV had not one but two daughters, the
> second becoming the wife of a king of Georgia and procreating three sons. I
> have not presently access to my books, but I think it may be possible to
> identify this three sons and the king their father.
Who were they and which Georgian king did the second one marry?
>
>
>
> Pierre
Thank-you
Pierre Aronax
Pierre Aronax <pierre...@hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message :
9jrj4h$cul$1...@front2.grolier.fr...
<...>
> Secondly, we now know (thanks to Massarelli and above all to Ganchou, art.
> cit., p. 216, note 4) that Alexios IV had not one but two daughters, the
> second becoming the wife of a king of Georgia and procreating three sons.
<...>
Here is a basic mistake I acknowledge : I have now check Ganchou's article
again, an I see that my lecture of the Massarelli's quotation was wrong :
the three men are the brother and not the sons of the daughter of Alexios IV
who married the "Emperor of Iberia". So, it will be more difficult to
identify her husband than I said previously...
Pierre
Pierre Aronax
norenxaq <nore...@nethere.com> a écrit dans le message :
3B618C9C...@nethere.com...
>
>
> Pierre Aronax wrote:
<...>
> > Firstly, I think many Venetian families descend from John IV Komnenos (+
> > 1460) through his daughter (and so niece of David II) married with
Nicolo
> > Crispo, lord of the islands of Santorin and Syra.
>
> What was her name?
Unfortunately, her name is not given in primary sources (which in fact are
not primary). The ancient bibliography gave her the name of Valenza,
following Karl Hopf, but this seems exclude because it is not at all a
Byzantine name.
>
> > I know of course that her
> > existence has been questioned, particularly in two articles of M.
> > Kursanskis, but I'm not convinced by his hypercriticist demonstration,
which
> > contradicts Venetian sources. Through this daughter, we can have a
posterity
> > in the families Crispo, Malipiero, da Prioli, Balbi, Loredano and of
course
> > Cornaro (the last reigning queen of Cyprus Catarina Cornaro was the
> > granddaughter of this mysterious Trapezuntine princess).
>
> Are there charts of these families, and if so, where? Could you post some
of
> them, if possible showing how they connect?
I have some notes about that, but not under the hand this evening. I will
post an other mail on that tomorrow or after.
> > Secondly, we now know (thanks to Massarelli and above all to Ganchou,
art.
> > cit., p. 216, note 4) that Alexios IV had not one but two daughters, the
> > second becoming the wife of a king of Georgia and procreating three
sons. I
> > have not presently access to my books, but I think it may be possible to
> > identify this three sons and the king their father.
>
> Who were they and which Georgian king did the second one marry?
I made a mistake here, see my other post : Massarelli mentioned no sons and
no first name for this daughter of Alexios IV, and so his husband the king
of Georgia (if it is indeed a king of Georgia : Massarelli spoke of the
"Imperator di Iveria in le parte de Soria") will be difficult to identify. I
will make immediately an other post about that. The other daughter of
Alexios IV is Maria Komnčnč (+ 17 December 1439), wife of the emperor John
VIII Palaiologos, but she is already well known and had no posterity.
Pierre
Pierre Aronax
Pierre Aronax <pierre...@hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message :
9jrj4h$cul$1...@front2.grolier.fr...
<...>
> Secondly, we now know (thanks to Massarelli and above all to Ganchou, art.
> cit., p. 216, note 4) that Alexios IV had not one but two daughters, the
> second becoming the wife of a king of Georgia and procreating three sons.
<...>
Pierre Aronax
> <...>
>
> > Secondly, we now know (thanks to Massarelli and above all to Ganchou,
art.
> > cit., p. 216, note 4) that Alexios IV had not one but two daughters, the
> > second becoming the wife of a king of Georgia and procreating three
sons.
>
> <...>
>
> Here is a basic mistake I acknowledge : I have now check Ganchou's article
> again, an I see that my lecture of the Massarelli's quotation was wrong :
> the three men are the brother and not the sons of the daughter of Alexios
IV
> who married the "Emperor of Iberia". So, it will be more difficult to
> identify her husband than I said previously...
I have two hypothesis to offer for the identity of the "Emperor of Iberia"
who, according to Massarelli, was married with a daughter of Alexios IV.
Hugues Busac, whose testimony about the Kantakouzenoi has already been
mentionned in the previous posts about the Komnčnoi of Trebizond, talk about
a sister of the Georgios Kantakouzenos (grandfather of his wife and great
grandfather of Spandounes), who was married with "the King of the Iberians"
("me tin rigan tis Iverias"). Nicol in his book about the Kantakouzenoi (p.
191-192, n° 73), accepts this information and manage (unsuccessfully) to
identify this king, but it is rather strange that a Kantakouzčnč became the
wife of a Georgian king, and Laurent, the first editor of Busac, was very
sceptical about this information. But now we know (thanks to Ganchou...)
that the daughter of Georgios Kantakouzenos married with an Emperor of
Trebizond was Theodora Komnčnč, one can ask if this sister of Theodora was
not in fact is daughter, who was said by Massarelli to have married
precisely the "Emperor of Iberia"... Of course, it can also be the contrary
(Busac being right and Massarelli wrong about the lineage of this princess),
but it is more likely that a King of Georgia took a princess of Trebizond as
his wife rather than a Kantakouzene of Constantinople.
But there is perhaps an other possibility. I have used for that M.
Kursanskis, "Relations matrimoniales entre Grands Comnčnes de Trébizonde et
princes géorgiens", in Bedi Kartlisa. Revue de Kartvélologie, 34 (1976), p.
112-127. There is a section p. 125-127 which concerns a Komnčnč who became
the wife of Mamia of Gouria. I resume. The Greek historian Laonikos
Chalkokondylčs wrote tha,t before the fall of Trebizond, David II's wife
(Kursanskis call her Helena but of course her name is not in
Chalkokondylčs...) take refuge near her "gambros" Mamia ("para ton eaftis
gambron ton Mamian", excuse me for the rude transcription), which means
Mamia, the lord of Guria in Caucasus. The interpretation of Kursanskis is
that Chalkokondyles says David II had a daughter who was the wife of Mamia
(and thinks also that she is the same with this queen of the Iberians who is
mentioned by Busac).
But the Greek word "gambros" can also mean sometimes "brother-in-law" and
not "son-in-law". So Mamia can have married a sister of David and a daughter
of Alexios IV and Theodora Komnčnč. Consequently, Mamia could also be the
"Emperor of Iberia" mentioned by Massarelli (even if it will be a very
pompous way to call him...).
Incidentally, IIRC, Mamia "marquis of Gouria" is also mentioned among the
Caucasian princes who were ready to take part in an alliance against the
Turks in 1460-1461 : see the article of Bryer on Ludovico da Bologna's
ambassy (I have not the precise reference here).
Mamia had a posterity. Basing on his chronology, it is perhaps possible to
determine if his wife was a sister or a daughter of David II. But I have not
done the search for the moment.
At least, at we have seen previously, Spandounes said that the son of David
II who escaped went to the King of Georgia called "Gurguiabei", "who was
converted to Christianity", and become the husband of the King's daughter.
As we have also seen, Spandoundes is not a very reliable source in this
passage (not speaking again of the "Helena Kantakouzene case", he says for
example that the wife of Uzun Hasan was the daughter of this Trapezuntin
prince, when she was his cousin; this basic mistake is not even indicated in
the translation of Nicol; rather than that, Nicol even adds a new error in
his note when saying that "Helena Kantakouzene" was éa direct ancestor of
Spandounes' mother", when she is supposed to be is aunt !). Nevertheless, if
this testimony can be admitted, it is not impossible that this King
"Gurguiabei" of Georgia was the same who married precisely a Komnčnč. For
Laurent in his edition of Busac, it is George VIII of Georgia (1453-1469),
but by confusion with his successor Constantin III. For Nicol in his book
about the Kantakouzenoi, "Gurguibei" is rather perhaps a deformation of
"Gurgia Bey", "the lord of Guria", understand the Mamia of Chalkokandyles.
For Kursanskis, it is a deformation "Guji beg", whose meaning in Turk is
simply "the Georgian lord", nothing more (nevertheless, he identifies him
with Mamia of Guria, but doesn't discuss the marriage of his daughter,
because he thinks that Spandounes says the Georgian king was married with a
daughter of the Trapezuntine prince, and not the contrary !). Perhaps it is
better to not use Spandounes here, because his telling is, again, very
confuse (for example, why a Georgian king is supposed to be "converted" to
Christianity, was he not already Christian ?).
In brief, it is worth than with the genealogy of the Kantakouzenoi !
Pierre