Anyone knows "fidchell" (the royal boardgame)?
Bernd Ebach
Today I'd like to test the collective wisdom of the Usenet
commuity. Now her is the question:
While scanning through a dictionary on nordic mythology
I thumbled over an entry that says something about a
"royal boardgame" called "fidchell". The entry is about
Lug, a famous celtic god, who reached the court of Nuadu
Argetlam right after the second battle of Mag Turied.
Nuadu challenges Lug in this "royal boardgame fidchell"...
As there is no entry about "fidchell" in this dirctionary
and I couldnt find information anywhere else the question
is: Who knows anything about this "fidchell" thing? Is
it real or just fiction - a myth to say?
Thanx for ANY hint on that!
(If you have a dictionary on celtic/nordic mythology handy
would you mind looking up "Lug", "Nuadu" and/or "fidchell"?)
8^)
TschauTschau
Bernd
--
contraria non condradictoria sed complementa sunt. --- Niels Bohr
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Bernd Ebach ////\\\\ Bernd...@Student.Uni-Ulm.De
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Gegensaetze widersprechen sich nicht, sondern ergaenzen einander
finn
Bernd Ebach <s_e...@lyra.rz.uni-ulm.de> wrote:
>Morning networld.
>
>Today I'd like to test the collective wisdom of the Usenet
>commuity. Now her is the question:
>
> While scanning through a dictionary on nordic mythology
> I thumbled over an entry that says something about a
> "royal boardgame" called "fidchell". The entry is about
> Lug, a famous celtic god, who reached the court of Nuadu
> Argetlam right after the second battle of Mag Turied.
> Nuadu challenges Lug in this "royal boardgame fidchell"...
>
> As there is no entry about "fidchell" in this dirctionary
> and I couldnt find information anywhere else the question
> is: Who knows anything about this "fidchell" thing? Is
> it real or just fiction - a myth to say?
>
>Thanx for ANY hint on that!
I was under the impression that 'fidchell' is a game not unlike, or
perhaps exactly like, chess.
>(If you have a dictionary on celtic/nordic mythology handy
> would you mind looking up "Lug", "Nuadu" and/or "fidchell"?)
>TschauTschau
> Bernd
finn
--
"I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it."
-- Jack Handey
scott david orr
>In article <30ltmf$4...@wega.rz.uni-ulm.de>,
>Bernd Ebach <s_e...@lyra.rz.uni-ulm.de> wrote:
>>
>> As there is no entry about "fidchell" in this dirctionary
>> and I couldnt find information anywhere else the question
>> is: Who knows anything about this "fidchell" thing? Is
>> it real or just fiction - a myth to say?
>>
>perhaps exactly like, chess.
>
>
is Irish). These games (and other Nordic games, such as hnefatafl ["king-
board"]) only have one or two types of pieces, and the set-up is asymetrical.
In Fox and Geese, for example (which fidchell is _believed_ to have been a
version of) the fox starts in the center of the board, surrounded by 12
geese set up at the edges. The fox can capture the geese by jumping them;
the objective of the geese is to force the fox into a corner where he can't
move. There's a good (if short) discussion of these sorts of games (inclu-
ding diagrams and rules) in GURPS Vikings.
Scott Orr
Peter Cassidy
In article <30ltmf$4...@wega.rz.uni-ulm.de>, s_e...@lyra.rz.uni-ulm.de (Bernd Ebach) writes:
>Morning networld.
Good morning !
> As there is no entry about "fidchell" in this dirctionary
> and I couldnt find information anywhere else the question
> is: Who knows anything about this "fidchell" thing? Is
> it real or just fiction - a myth to say?
>
>Thanx for ANY hint on that!
Fidchell (pronounced 'fih-ell') is the modern Irish word for chess.
If I remember the myth, there was a woman involved somewhere & she was the
stake in the game :-/ That's all I can remember ......
> Bernd Ebach ////\\\\ Bernd...@Student.Uni-Ulm.De
--
Pete
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Peter Cassidy - Motorola BV Ireland - TSE | Si/ na Samhna, |
| pet...@dub.comm.mot.com * My opinions only !! | Tu/s na Bliain U/r. |
| C10...@email.mot.com - ZEI03 | Si/ an Chrann Marbh, |
|** http://dub-tsw7.dub.comm.mot.com/pete.html **| Deireadh an Tuath. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott C DeLancey
> I thumbled over an entry that says something about a
> "royal boardgame" called "fidchell". The entry is about
> Lug, a famous celtic god, who reached the court of Nuadu
> Argetlam right after the second battle of Mag Turied.
> Nuadu challenges Lug in this "royal boardgame fidchell"...
>
> As there is no entry about "fidchell" in this dirctionary
> and I couldnt find information anywhere else the question
> is: Who knows anything about this "fidchell" thing? Is
> it real or just fiction - a myth to say?
This came up on soc.culture.celtic a couple of months ago,
and somebody posted a couple of references, which I can't
remember. Anyway, it is (was) a real board game, and turns up
a lot in Old Irish literature. My understanding is that
it was pretty similar to the game sometimes called "Fox and
Geese", with one player having several pieces with which he
tries to trap the single piece of his opponent, who in turn
is trying with his piece to capture all his opponent's pieces.
Sean O Seaghdha
>
> While scanning through a dictionary on nordic mythology
> I thumbled over an entry that says something about a
> "royal boardgame" called "fidchell". The entry is about
> Lug, a famous celtic god, who reached the court of Nuadu
> Argetlam right after the second battle of Mag Turied.
> Nuadu challenges Lug in this "royal boardgame fidchell"...
> Who knows anything about this "fidchell" thing? Is
> it real or just fiction - a myth to say?
>(If you have a dictionary on celtic/nordic mythology handy
> would you mind looking up "Lug", "Nuadu" and/or "fidchell"?)
Amazing...I've actually managed to find one of those many pieces of paper
with something interesting on it that I file away at random. This was almost
going to read like---Umm, well I have some info on fidchell *somewhere*...
Well here it is...
from _Chess in Europe_ (don't know the author--only have 2 photocopied pages)
In the Celtic story, Peredur comes to the Castle of Wonders and sees there
a *gwyddbwyll* board, on which the men were playing aginst each other...
The exact nature of the game *gwyddbwyll*(20) is now unknown, and was
probably unknown in Chrestien's day. It was certainly a *board-game*, and it
was only natural that Chrestien and his successors should substitute the
familiar chess for the old Celtic game.
(20) The game *gwyddbwyll* is frequently mentioned in the *Mabinogion* and in
other early Welsh works. None of the references give any clue as to the
nature of the game, but none imply that there was any differentiation of piece
other than that necessary to distinguish the one side from the other.
...[discussion of possible confusion of *gwyddbwyll* with *tawlbwrdd*/French
*tables* and the Norse game *hnefatafl*. *Tawlbwrdd* -- 2 sides, one with 16
men, the other 8 men & a king---apparently identical to *hnefatafl*]...
The word gwyddbwyll is historically identical with the Irish word
*fidchell*, and this latter word occurs repeatedly in early Irish works as the
name of a game. Thus it occurs in *Cormac's Glossary* (ed. W. Stokes 1862-8),
where it is said that 'in the first place the fidchell is four-cornered, its
squares are right-angled, and black and white are on it, and moreover, it is
different people that in turn win the game'. Other Irish references add
nothing to our knowledge, with the possible exception of---(1) a passage in
the *Acallamh* [long reference] which describes how Cailte and the King of
Connacht played at fidchell. When the board was brought, three men were
missing. Cailte fetched 3 gold and 3 silver men from a cairn where a game had
been hidden. Each of these men was as big as a big man's fist, and he told
the King that he had left 300 men, half gold and half silver, in the cairn.
(2) The 15th c. *Book of Lismore* (still unedited), describing a gift of a
fidchell to Pope Boneface in the 7th c., says that it had nine lines, and half
of the pieces were men and half women. By the 15th c. the real nature of the
game was certainly completely forgotten.
Phew...I think I'll leave it to someone else to fill you in on Lugh Lamhfhada
(of the Long Arm)and Nuada Airgeadlamh (Silver Hand). Marie-Louise
Sjoestedt's _Gods and Heroes of the Celts_ (1940, reprint 1982 Turtle Island
Foundation, Berkely CA) is probably a good start if you're interested in that
kinda stuff.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
m...@werple.apana.org.au
, , , sg...@cfs01.cc.monash.edu.au
S e a n O S e a g h d h a (muise!) 10024...@compuserve.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Glenn F. Gorsuch
a generic class of games that include the Viking hnefatafl, the alea evangeli of
the Anglo-Saxons, the Welsh gwyddbwyll, the hala tafi of the Icleanders and the
tablut of the Finns and Lapps.
All the above are played on square boards of varying sizes, from seven
squares an a side to as many as 23 (always an odd number, though). One player
had a numerical advantage over the other. One side has a king (always starting
in the center of the board--that's why the odd number of squares) and a number
of men ( eight on the 7X7 board, to perhaps 40 for the 23X23). The other
player had twice as many men but no king.
All pieces had the same move--like a rook in chess. The starting patterns
varied, but all had the king surrounded by his own men at the start. Capture
of pieces was accomplished by flanking a piece by two opposing pieces, though
often a piece moving between two others voluntarily was not considered caught.
To win: the king had to reach the edge of the board, or the other player had
to pen the king so he could not move (all four sides).
Other variations had it that no piece could occupy the center square at
any time _except_ the king. In others, the king had to announce the exist-
ance of a clear run to the edge before he took it.
Hope this helps--have fun playing.
(one of these days, I've _got_ to make up a set!)
Glenn
--
This insightful commentary was brought to you by Glenn F. Gorsuch. Treasure it.
Address? Oh yeah. It's: ggor...@ecst.csuchico.edu Like I'd lie :)
I stand behind everything I just said. Way behind, if possible. Miles, even.
You have come to The End. Please flip this post over and press play to continue.
Mr Neville Steven Percy
<snip>
> While scanning through a dictionary on nordic mythology
> I thumbled over an entry that says something about a
> "royal boardgame" called "fidchell". The entry is about
> Lug, a famous celtic god, who reached the court of Nuadu
> Argetlam right after the second battle of Mag Turied.
> Nuadu challenges Lug in this "royal boardgame fidchell"...
> As there is no entry about "fidchell" in this dirctionary
> and I couldnt find information anywhere else the question
> is: Who knows anything about this "fidchell" thing? Is
> it real or just fiction - a myth to say?
>(If you have a dictionary on celtic/nordic mythology handy
> would you mind looking up "Lug", "Nuadu" and/or "fidchell"?)
Hi, Bernd!
I don't know what book would include Celtic stuff about Lug and Nuadu
and the game of fidchell in 'nordic mythology' -- the only connection is the
approximate northwestern European geography, and the fact that the game
involved seems to have been common to both cultural groups.
The Celts called it fidchell (pronounced approximately: "VIDHkhechl"), and also
gwyddbwyll ("GOOithBOOichl") -- the Welsh "ll" defies pronunciation!
The Vikings called it hnefatafl, or King's Table, and I believe it was the same
game. Both used a chequered board, although over the ages, as well as between
the cultures there were different sizes of board, and different numbers of
pieces. Essentially this game was the precursor to chess, but at this stage
in history there were only two types of piece, the men (=pawns) and the king.
and only one side had a king.
One player takes the king, at the centre of the board, surrounded by his men,
and the other the attackers, with a small group of men at each corner. All
pieces move only along the lines (rook-style; no diagonals), and a player
captures his opponent's pieces by moving such that he has a piece either
side of the captured piece, on the same line, but not necessarily adjacent to
it. The king has to be surrounded on all four sides.
The king player wins if he can escape to a corner square, and the attacker wins
if he can capture the king. As I said, the game existed in many variants, so
if other people post other versions, I would also be keen to learn of those.
Lug (or Lugh, or Llud in Wales) and Nuadu (Nuada, Nydd) were both at one time
or other Kings of the Tuatha de Danaan, the Faerie race of the gods of the old
Celts. Needless to say there is a vast amount of mythology pertaining to them,
and I can only suggest you start with the Mabinogion -- the collection of the
myths of Wales. Other sources may well be better.
>TschauTschau
> Bernd
TschuB! (if this is the same thing...)
Nev (:>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.___o___. |\ |
| ! | | `\ | .---. . .
/'\ ! /'\ | `\ | |-----' `\ /' Neville Percy
\W/ ! \W/ | `\| `*._.* `\/' spb...@ucl.ac.uk
___...oOo...____________________________________________________________________
Grant White
+
+Morning networld.
+
+Today I'd like to test the collective wisdom of the Usenet
+commuity. Now her is the question:
+
+ While scanning through a dictionary on nordic mythology
+ I thumbled over an entry that says something about a
+ "royal boardgame" called "fidchell". The entry is about
+ Lug, a famous celtic god, who reached the court of Nuadu
+ Argetlam right after the second battle of Mag Turied.
+ Nuadu challenges Lug in this "royal boardgame fidchell"...
+
+ As there is no entry about "fidchell" in this dirctionary
+ and I couldnt find information anywhere else the question
+ is: Who knows anything about this "fidchell" thing? Is
+ it real or just fiction - a myth to say?
+
+Thanx for ANY hint on that!
+
+(If you have a dictionary on celtic/nordic mythology handy
+ would you mind looking up "Lug", "Nuadu" and/or "fidchell"?)
+
+ 8^)
+
+TschauTschau
+ Bernd
+
+--
+ contraria non condradictoria sed complementa sunt. --- Niels Bohr
+ -------------------------------------------------------------------
+ Bernd Ebach ////\\\\ Bernd...@Student.Uni-Ulm.De
+ -------------------------------------------------------------------
+ Gegensaetze widersprechen sich nicht, sondern ergaenzen einander
Lug or Lugh apparently means the Long Handed one. He is able to
use the skills of any being he has ever met.
Nuada is the God of War or Silver Handed One, due to his silver
hand....there's a surprise.
Sorry can't find anything about Fidgeting or whatever it was.
--
| Those who live by the sword are generally
@@@@@@|>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hard bastards.
|
These opinions are mine for better for worse. GW
The Blue Goose
there were two uneven sides,all pieces identical except for the king.I
regret that I am unable to recall the name of this game was,although it
was most enjoyable,and it seems to me that it was named after some sort
of nautical conflict.Circa 1970.I realize this may not help with the
Celtic origins of fidchell,but, on the other hand,3M must have gotten it
from somewhere(as they have gotten many of their better"abstract"games
from ancient folk games).
Philip Carrotta
> While scanning through a dictionary on nordic mythology
> I thumbled over an entry that says something about a
> "royal boardgame" called "fidchell". The entry is about
> Lug, a famous celtic god, who reached the court of Nuadu
> Argetlam right after the second battle of Mag Turied.
> Nuadu challenges Lug in this "royal boardgame fidchell"...
> As there is no entry about "fidchell" in this dirctionary
> and I couldnt find information anywhere else the question
> is: Who knows anything about this "fidchell" thing? Is
> it real or just fiction - a myth to say?
>Thanx for ANY hint on that!
For what it's worth, in Gary Gygax's Dangerous Journeys (which my
friends and I foolishly thought worthwhile to check out) there IS a complete
rules compilation for a chess-like game called Fidchell. I never did try to
play, but suffice it to say that it reads much like the remainder of the RPG,
long and complex.
I strongly suspect that Gygax borrowed little from the game but its
name, though I can't be assured of that. It's just very unlikely that the
royal boardgame was played on a 12x12 space chessboard with pieces ranging
from Warriors (who can promote to Guards then Guarg Generals) to Unicorns, and
from Wyverns to Fiends...
But I am far from a historian... For those who DO want to check it out
at least (it DOES appear to be an involved game) you can find its full
description in GDW's Epic of Aerth on pages 238-240...
>TschauTschau
> Bernd
Phil
James Moore
Unfortunately, although physical sets exist of the game, no rules are
known. The only hint that I know of is the Irish word for two people
is "beirt,"* which is also the name of move in the game. Doesn't give
you much to go on, although I've heard the theory that each move
involved a player moving two peices. It could just as easily mean
that a turn was thought of as being one set of actions from each
player. It's also the modern Irish word for chess.
* Irish normally builds the words for counting people by combining
numbers with the word for man ("fear"), so you get:
duine (one person, gender not specified; also used like "someone")
beirt (two people)
triu/r (from *tri fhearr, three men)
ceathrar (from *ceathair fhearr)
etc.
--
James Moore /|\ ja...@wrs.com
Wind River Systems \|/ Alameda, California
Why in the world is Volkswagen so obsessed
with far fig newtons?
Matt Kavanagh
s_e...@lyra.rz.uni-ulm.de "Bernd Ebach" writes:
> Morning networld.
>
> Today I'd like to test the collective wisdom of the Usenet
> commuity. Now her is the question:
>
> While scanning through a dictionary on nordic mythology
> I thumbled over an entry that says something about a
> "royal boardgame" called "fidchell". The entry is about
> Lug, a famous celtic god, who reached the court of Nuadu
> Argetlam right after the second battle of Mag Turied.
> Nuadu challenges Lug in this "royal boardgame fidchell"...
>
> As there is no entry about "fidchell" in this dirctionary
> and I couldnt find information anywhere else the question
> is: Who knows anything about this "fidchell" thing? Is
> it real or just fiction - a myth to say?
>
> Thanx for ANY hint on that!
>
> (If you have a dictionary on celtic/nordic mythology handy
> would you mind looking up "Lug", "Nuadu" and/or "fidchell"?)
*ficheall* is the modern Irish for chess. The game is referred to
in many old Irish writings. I don't think anyone knows the rules of
the original boardgame, hence its mutation into chess over the
centuries.
*Lu/gh* (Irish) was a Celtic god, appearing as *Lleu* (Welsh) and
giving names to such places as Lyons, Le/on and Loudan in France;
Leiden in Holland; Liegnitz in Silesia and London in England. The
word leprechaun comes from a corruption of the Irish *Lu/gh-chroma/in*,
little stooping Lugh.
*Lu/ghnasa*, modern spelling *Lu/nasa* is the Irish word for August.
--
Mait Caomha/nach
ma...@maitiu.demon.co.uk Ni/or li/on beannacht bolg riamh