The Northern Hsiung-Nu
Allan M. Andersen
I have found something New about the Northern Hsiung-Nu.
What I have is:
They probably descended from Hu han yeh. Perhaps You
can say something about that, Igor.
The Northern Hsiung-Nu consisted of:
1. Punu, ruled 46-after 64 CE. Then:
2. Yu liu, died 87 CE.
3. Name not known, ruled 87-91 CE. Then:
4. Yuichugan, 91-93 CE.
My source then states:
Source is: http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/sibiria.html
"The northern Hsinug-Nu remowed to modern Kazakhstan,
where the Huyang endured until the middle of of the 2nd.
century CE: driven out of their lands by Xian-Bi,
they migrated further west across the Ukraine and into
Europe, which they bedeviled under the name of the Huns...".
Perhaps You could continue the lineage back in time, if we
could only say, that Atilla the Hun, was a descendant of
this Punu, the first Khan of the Northern Hsiung-Nu. Even if we
cant tell exactly how.
Sincerely Allan.
Randy Jones
re-check?
-- Randy Jones
--- "Allan M. Andersen"
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Doug Smith
Doug
randy...@yahoo.com (Randy Jones) wrote in message news:<2003020403210...@web10504.mail.yahoo.com>...
Steven C. Perkins
The Genetic Legacy of the Mongols
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v72n3/024530/024530.w
eb.pdf
Regards,
Steven C. Perkins
On 4 Feb 2003 at 2:41, Doug Smith wrote:
Date forwarded: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 03:47:37 -0700
Date sent: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 02:41:59 -0800
Forwarded by: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
From: al...@mindspring.com (Doug Smith)
Subject: Re: The Northern Hsiung-Nu
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Organization: http://groups.google.com/
Randy Jones
doesn't help much to refer us to it.
-- Randy Jones
--- "Steven C. Perkins" <sper...@interaccess.com>
wrote:
Grant Menzies
>Unfortunately, this article requires a password, so it
>doesn't help much to refer us to it.
Here's an abstract, at least - sounds most interesting:
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v72n3/024530/brief/024530.abstract.html
Grant
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Grant Menzies
=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Gordon Banks
"We have identified a Y-chromosomal lineage with several unusual features.
It was found in 16 populations throughout a large region of Asia, stretching
from the Pacific to the Caspian Sea, and was present at high frequency: 8%
of the men in this region carry it, and it thus makes up 0.5% of the world
total. The pattern of variation within the lineage suggested that it
originated in Mongolia 1,000 years ago. Such a rapid spread cannot have
occurred by chance; it must have been a result of selection. The lineage is
carried by likely male-line descendants of Genghis Khan, and we therefore
propose that it has spread by a novel form of social selection resulting
from their behavior."
The only argument I'd have is that the behavior wasn't all that novel,
although I guess the Mongols took it to new heights.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Grant Menzies [mailto:scot...@europa.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 7:46 AM
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: The Northern Hsiung-Nu
>
>
Steven C. Perkins
Mousavi, _The Hazaras of Afghanistan_, (Richmond: 1998), which is
mentioned as haveing a genealogical chart. DOes anyone on the list have a
copy?
Regards,
Steven C. Perkins
Igor Sklar
My family library is not very up-to-date. There are some Russian
classics on the issue, however: 1) K. A. Inostrantsev. Hsiung-Nu and
Huns (1929); 2) A. P. Okladnikov. The Ancient People of Siberia and
Their Culture (1948); 3) A. N. Bernstam. On the History of Huns
(1951); 4) S. V. Kiselyov. The Ancient History of Southern Siberia
(1951); 5) L. N. Gumilyov. Hsiung-Nu (1963).
Some of these books are supplied with genealogical tables of the
Hsiung-Nu Khans. None, however, shows any connection between them and
Atilla. The first Hsiung-Nu khan was a contemporary of first Hun
emperors of China. The last Northern Hsiung-Nu khan mentioned is Hiu
Lee (khan 126-142), son of Chan (khan 63-85), son of Bi (khan 48-55),
son of Wu Chu Liu (khan 8-13 AD), son of Hu Han Yeh (khan 58-31 BC),
son of Hui Lui (khan 48-60 BC).
Respects, Igor
Steven C. Perkins
here;
http://dogbert.abebooks.com/abe/BookDetails?bi=185130350
in case someone wants to buy it.
Regards,
Steven C. Perkins
On 4 Feb 2003 at 9:35, Gordon Banks wrote:
Date forwarded: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 10:35:40 -0700
Date sent: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 09:35:39 -0800
Forwarded by: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
From: Gordon Banks <g...@gordonbanks.com>
Subject: RE: The Northern Hsiung-Nu
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Does look interesting. Here's the abstract:
"We have identified a Y-chromosomal lineage with several unusual
features.
It was found in 16 populations throughout a large region of Asia,
stretching from the Pacific to the Caspian Sea, and was present at high
frequency: 8% of the men in this region carry it, and it thus makes up
0.5% of the world total. The pattern of variation within the lineage
suggested that it originated in Mongolia 1,000 years ago. Such a rapid
spread cannot have occurred by chance; it must have been a result of
selection. The lineage is carried by likely male-line descendants of
Genghis Khan, and we therefore propose that it has spread by a novel form
of social selection resulting from their behavior."
The only argument I'd have is that the behavior wasn't all that novel,
although I guess the Mongols took it to new heights.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Grant Menzies [mailto:scot...@europa.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 7:46 AM
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: The Northern Hsiung-Nu
>
>
Andrey Frizyuk
perhaps this link will be of interest to you:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~royalty/mongol/persons.html
Best regards
Igor Sklar
> Does look interesting. Here's the abstract:
>
> "We have identified a Y-chromosomal lineage with several unusual features.
> It was found in 16 populations throughout a large region of Asia, stretching
> from the Pacific to the Caspian Sea, and was present at high frequency: 8%
> of the men in this region carry it, and it thus makes up 0.5% of the world
> total. The pattern of variation within the lineage suggested that it
> originated in Mongolia 1,000 years ago. Such a rapid spread cannot have
> occurred by chance; it must have been a result of selection. The lineage is
> carried by likely male-line descendants of Genghis Khan, and we therefore
> propose that it has spread by a novel form of social selection resulting
> from their behavior."
Very well! Perhaps these figures may counterbalance the popular
opinion that Juchi was not a biological son of Genghis.
Apparently, this idea belongs to Chagatai or Odogei, who wanted to
exclude Juchi from succession. The author of
The_Secret_History_of_Mongols, who was a follower of Ogodei and wrote
the work for his family, has Chagatai calling Juchi "bastard" (254,
though the true meaning of Mongolian words is still obscure). But what
is the reaction of Genghis Khan? "How dare you talk about Juchi like
this? Is not he the eldest of my heirs? That I never heard such wicked
words again!" (255). All in all, Genghis Khan pronounces the words
"Juchi is my eldest son" thrice (210, 242, 254)! Can we ignore this
strongly stated opinion of Genghis in favour of some insult of obscure
meaning?
The name of Juchi is translated as "Unexpected Guest". He was sent to
Genghis by Chilger, the captor of his wife, after several months of
captivity. The Secret History doesn't specify the term of captivity,
and I'm not sure whether it could exceed six months.
We are told that "it would be difficult to explain the election of
Ogadei as Genghis Khan's successor if there had been no doubts among
the Mongols concerning the legitimacy of Juchi's birth". What? Genghis
died in August of 1227, Juchi six months earlier, so he could not be a
participant of any elections whatsoever. Perhaps the author of these
lines was not acquainted with the rules of Mongolian succession? Or he
did not know that after Juchi's death Genghis himself chose the second
son to be his heir (Secret_History, 269)?
What is more important, however, is that Juchi was at loggerheads with
his father from 1221 and did not take part in his later campaigns. The
reason for this antagonism is not entirely clear; I think it is
connected with the new marriage of Genghis which took place about that
time. But Genghis did not exclude Juchi from succession, since he
didn't devide his ulus between other brothers, but chose as heir
Juchi's younger son Batu. Is it also "difficult to explain the
election of Batu as Juchi's successor if there had been no doubts
among the Mongols concerning the legitimacy of Ordu's [the elder son
of Juchi] birth?"
Perhaps we cannot tell for sure whether Juchi was Genghis' son or he
was not, but to deny any possibility of their blood relation offhand
is hardly sensible. The registered progeny of Juchi was more copious
by far than that of Ogedei, Chagatai, and Tolui, taken together.
Central Asia was a part of Juchi's ulus, and was ruled by his
descendants. And how we find out that there a still quite a few of
them living there!
Cheers, Igor
Andrey Frizyuk
Let's take Juchi's junior son. Descendants of Sheibani ruled Central
Asia for several centuries. I haven't studied sources as yet, but it
seems inevitable that they married into Il-Khans of Persia (descending
from Tolui) or some other Genghisid families.
Once we accept that there was Genghisid blood in this line, we may
trace curious Genghisid connections into modern times. Here's a
sample:
Genghis -> Juchi -> Sheibani -> Belhadir -> Juji Buka -> Bada Kul ->
Mangu Timur -> Tunka Mundi -> Ali Oghlan -> Hadji Muhammad -> Mahmudek
-> Ibak (+before 1493) -> Murtaza, Khan of Siberia (+1565) -> Kuchum,
the last Khan of Siberia (+ca 1599) -> Tsarevich Alei -> Alp-Arslan,
Khan of Kasimov (+1626) -> Vasily, Khan of Kasimov (*1624, +ca 1679)
-> Tsarevna Domna Kasimovkaya (+ca 1729; m. Prince Yury Khilkov) ->
Pss Praskovia Khilkova (*1682, +1739; m. Prince Alexey Dolgorukov) ->
Prince Alexander Dolgorukov (*1718, +1782) -> Prince Mikhail
Dolgorukov (*1758, +1813) -> Prince Mikhail Dolgorukov (*1790, +1841)
-> Prince Mikhail Dolgorukov (*1816) -> Pss Yekaterina
Dolgorukova-Yurievskaya (*14.11.1847 Moscow, +15.02.1922 Nice); m.
Tsarskoye Selo 18.07.1880 Emperor Alexander II (*1818, +1881) -> ...