The Template Search
Dorothea M. Rovner
In article <57fr35$5...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, s-o...@staff.uiuc.edu (orso
steven n) wrote:
> Similarly, the Iberian Section reports promising new finds mapping Londo
> Mollari and Vir Cotto onto the roles of Don Quixote and Sancho Panza.
Yer Iberianists aren't looking half hard enough. I think _Fuenteovejuna_
(Lope de Vega) has a lot to say about the mess on Centauri Prime, and
_La vida es sue~o_ (Pedro Caldero'n de la Barca) is a better template for
the Babylon 5 romantic situations. :)
Thanks for a good laugh.
Dorothea
--
Dorothea M. Rovner | "Nuestras vidas son los rios
Gradual Student | que van a dar en la mar/qu'es el morir."
dmro...@students.wisc.edu | Jorge Manrique
orso steven n
With the plunge into an abyss at the end of "Z'ha'dum" and the introduction
of a character named Lorien in Season Four, the argument that *Babylon 5*
has been fashioned from a *Lord of the Rings* template has returned to
rastb5-mod yet again. JMS has rightly protested this development, pointing
out that he is well-read in world literature, and that his writing makes
references, conscious and subconscious, to all sorts of literary traditions.
(See the "JMS Speaks" section of the Lurker's Guide episode page for "What
Ever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi?") This has been amply demonstrated over the
years by fans who have mapped the plot and characters of *Babylon 5* onto
several other templates--among them various epic traditions (Gilgamesh, The
Odyssey, The Aeneid, and the Matter of Britain); assorted Western and Asian
mythologies; any number of multi-volume speculative-fiction series; the
complete works of William Shakespeare; and films as varied as "The Dark
Crystal," "Casablanca," "Snow White," "The Princess Bride," and the "Star
Wars" trilogy. There has even been a boneheaded attempt to map the series
onto a "Bambi" template.
It is to bring order out of this chaos that an international consortium of
B5 analysts has formed the Straczynski Template Research and Evaluation
Project (STREP), whose purpose is to identify all the intentional and
subconscious allusions in *Babylon 5*, and thereby to put to rest once and
for all the charge that it is merely *The Lord of the Rings* "with the
serial numbers filed off." Research teams affiliated with the Project have
already identified new, hitherto unsuspected templates for the series.
Consider, for example, the early reports from the European Literatures
Division. Things are proceeding smoothly in the Germanic and Scandinavian
Section, where promising leads have been developed comparing the isolated
character of the B5 station ("all alone in the night") to the closed world
of the tuberculosis sanitarium in Thomas Mann's *Magic Mountain*, and where
a draft paper on "Delenn as Little Mermaid" has drawn enthusiastic comment.
Similarly, the Iberian Section reports promising new finds mapping Londo
Mollari and Vir Cotto onto the roles of Don Quixote and Sancho Panza.
Unfortunately, all is not well in the Italian Section. After developing
some leads exploring Ariosto's *Orlando Furioso* as a possible template
--indeed, a "Kosh as Hippogriff" draft had been circulating for weeks--the
entire section went on strike (before anyone had even cracked open a copy
of Tasso's *Gerusalemme Liberata*) to protest the British Section's attempt
to pre-emptively credit the entire series to a template based on Spenser's
*Faerie Queene*.
But by far the most exciting discovery has come from the American Popular
Culture Division, which is reportedly on the verge of announcing that it has
identified the Master Template. According to a well-placed source within
the Division (code name: STREP Throat), the essential source for *Babylon 5*
turns out to be one of the pre-eminent American television programs to have
aired during JMS's formative years: *The Dick Van Dyke Show*, broadcast
from 1961 through 1966. The basic template mapping is:
Rob Petrie John Sheridan
Laura Petrie Delenn
Richie Petrie Lennier
Jerry Helper Michael Garibaldi
Millie Helper Susan Ivanova
Buddy Sorrell G'Kar
Sally Rogers Na'Toth
Mel Cooley Londo Mollari
Alan Brady Kosh Naranek
Even as we await the Division's full-fledged analysis, correspondences
between the two programs leap to mind:
--The DVDS opening credits in the early seasons showed Rob Petrie
tumbling over an ottoman--the obvious basis for John Sheridan's
plunges in "The Fall of Night" and "Z'ha'dum." The fact that in
later seasons Rob learned to sidestep the ottoman predicts that
Sheridan will survive for later seasons and will eventually abandon
his vexing habit of bungee-jumping without a bungee-cord.
--Early DVDS episodes in which Alan Brady's face was not seen are
the obvious basis for Kosh Naranek's hiding in an encounter suit;
his manifestations as a being of light in "Fall of Night" and "Dust
to Dust" relate to Carl Reiner's decision to let Brady's face be
seen as the DVDS evolved; and the celebrated DVDS episode in which
Laura revealed on television that Brady wore a wig undoubtedly
forecasts our getting to see what a "proper Vorlon" looks like.
--Jeffrey Sinclair's "removal from the chessboard" after one season
can be traced to the handful of episodes in which Jerry Van Dyke
appeared as Rob Petrie's brother.
--The much-remarked change in Delenn's personality from her strong-
willed Minbari determination to her simpering dependence on
Sheridan obviously reflects the onset of the Laura Petrie "Ohhh,
R-r-r-r-rooooooooob-b-b-b!" Syndrome. Similarly, Delenn's bad-hair
day in "Soul Mates" was directly inspired by the episode in which
Laura dyed her hair blonde, and then back to black, with calamitous
results. The prospect that Mira Furlan, resplendant in Capri slacks,
will someday make a dramatic entrance into Sheridan's quarters
headfirst atop an avalanche of walnuts promises another memorable
"Wham!" for the *Babylon 5* saga.
Skeptics may argue that mapping G'Kar to Buddy, Na'Toth to Sally, and Londo
to Mel establishes the basic Narn-Centauri dynamic, but fails to account
for Vir Cotto. That is where JMS's unique creative genius comes into play.
Richard Deacon, who played Mel Cooley, also appeared in a recurring role on
*Leave It To Beaver* as Fred Rutherford, the posturing father of Clarence
"Lumpy" Rutherford--and there you have the obvious prototype for the Londo-
Vir relationship. (What, you thought it was a coincidence that Tony Dow
has joined the B5 production team? There are no coincidences!)
To be sure, the DVDS template offers no basis for Stephen Franklin and
Marcus Cole, but not to worry: Spurred by the example of "Exogenesis" and
the realization that 1960s television lies at the root of *Babylon 5*, an
American Popular Culture Division crash team has been poring over tapes of
of *I Spy* (1965-1968). From Alexander Scott's command of foreign languages
to Stephen Franklin's mastery of xenobiology is no great leap, and neither
is the shift from Kelly Robinson's tennis racket to Marcus Cole's fighting
staff.
Who knows? If the American Popular Culture Division can find someone brave
enough to stomach Sally Field and John Davidson in "The Girl With Something
Extra" (1973-1974), it might even find the source for the telepaths. No,
really . . . don't forget that Sally Field also played the woman with
multiple personalities in *Sybil*, and look what happened to Talia Winters
in "Divided Loyalties." There are no coincidences . . . .
***************************************************************************
******** s-o...@uiuc.edu ******** Every silver lining has a cloud. ********
***************************************************************************
******* Those who study the past are condemned to see it repeated. ********
***************************************************************************
Jay Denebeim
In article <57fr35$5...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
orso steven n <s-o...@staff.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> Rob Petrie John Sheridan
> Laura Petrie Delenn
> Richie Petrie Lennier
> Jerry Helper Michael Garibaldi
> Millie Helper Susan Ivanova
> Buddy Sorrell G'Kar
> Sally Rogers Na'Toth
> Mel Cooley Londo Mollari
> Alan Brady Kosh Naranek
I'm sorry, I think your mapping is off. Clearly Susan Ivanova is
Sally Rogers. Both characters have 'man problems'. And, of course,
the clincher is that both characters and actresses adorn the left side
of their head with a striking adornment. This leads me to map Michael
to Buddy, certainly their senses of humor are similar.
Jay
--
* Jay Denebeim, Moderator, rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated *
* newsgroup submission address: ras...@solon.com *
* moderator contact address: rastb5-...@solon.com *
* personal contact address: dene...@4u.net *
Grizel
Ok, I am tired of hearing OVER AND OVER people reading in similairities
between B5 and Trek, or B5 and Tolkien, or B5 and the Arthutrian
legends, B5 vs Woody Woodpecker Cartoons. STOP! I's all bullshit! GET A
LIFE! Just enjoy the damned show! Please replace your seat trays and
proceed to your left out the bay doors, you will be assigned a weapon,
kill yourself when prompted.
Not everything in life HAS to be like something else! Somethings can
just BE. They don't have to be modeled off anything, there doesn't have
to be a plagerism involved for a show to hold it's own, and be
insightful. They may have a familiar elements, but in a show this
original and mind shaking it's hard to believe jms spent years trying to
sell someone elses work only to be found a plagarist that early into the
game. URG!
I get sick and tired of having one of my friends continually say under
her breath "yep, I think Ivanona is the lady of the lake" or Garibaldi
is mordred now..." IS NOT...SHUT UP! "oh yeah I said, and I suppose
Lenier is the walrus, coo coo cachoo." When you get a plauseable idea,
then speak. There are tons of you insist this also, those of you getting
really mad at this post are probably the ones doing this crap.
All these stories have a thing in common, light vs dark, evil vs good.
love vs hatred, knowing vs unknown it's a theme millienia old. GET OVER
IT! IT's nothing but what it is.
Grizel
Who is now mad enough to actually drive to work.
Laura Gillenwater
s-o...@staff.uiuc.edu (orso steven n) wrote:
>According to a well-placed source within the Division (code name: STREP >Throat), the essential source for *Babylon 5*
>turns out to be one of the pre-eminent American television programs
>to have aired during JMS's formative years: *The Dick Van Dyke Show*, >broadcast from 1961 through 1966. The basic template mappi=
ng is:
>
>
> Rob Petrie John Sheridan
> Laura Petrie Delenn
> Richie Petrie Lennier
> Jerry Helper Michael Garibaldi
> Millie Helper Susan Ivanova
> Buddy Sorrell G'Kar
> Sally Rogers Na'Toth
> Mel Cooley Londo Mollari
> Alan Brady Kosh Naranek
No, no - here's where the research went awry - Alan Brady is clearly
Cartagia. In fact, while watching the scene of Cartagia addressing the
heads on his desk, I was strongly reminded of a similar scene in which
Alan speaks to a line up of toupees on heads on his desk in the classic
episode in which Laura goes on a game show and spills the beans about the
fact that Alan wears a toupe. "You hear that, fellas - she says she's
sorry" Alan says to his heads....
Kosh must have been Sally's aunt - Sally was always quoting these really
cryptic things her aunt had said.
[snipped lot of good stuff]
> --Jeffrey Sinclair's "removal from the chessboard" after one season
> can be traced to the handful of episodes in which Jerry Van Dyke
> appeared as Rob Petrie's brother.
Here again, I must beg to differ. I think that Stacy Petrie (Rob's
brother) with his dual personality (when sleepwalking he transforms into
an alternate personality) might have inspired Talia and her "sleeper"
personality.
[more snippage]
>Skeptics may argue that mapping G'Kar to Buddy, Na'Toth to Sally, and >Londo to Mel establishes the basic Narn-Centauri dynamic, bu=
t fails to >account for Vir Cotto. That is where JMS's unique creative genius comes into play. Richard Deacon, who played Mel Coole=
y, also appeared in a >recurring role on *Leave It To Beaver* as Fred Rutherford, the posturing >father of Clarence "Lumpy" Rutherfo=
rd--and there you have the obvious >prototype for the Londo-Vir relationship. (What, you thought it was a >coincidence that Tony Do=
w has joined the B5 production team? There are >no coincidences!)
I think a far more effective mapping of these characters would be as
follows:
Buddy = G'Kar
Pickles = N'Toth
Sally = Londo
Herman Glimpshire = Vir (this is reflected in Vir's early, less strong,
personality)
With Alan as Cartagia, I'm thinking that perhaps Mel is Morden - they are
related, but not directly. Although Mel worked for the same "cause" as
Alan, Mel was able to realize that Alan was sometimes overly, shall we
say, eccentric. Mel, like Morden, is the perpetual messenger.
>***********************************************************************
>******* Those who study the past are condemned to see it repeated. ****
>***********************************************************************
Yes, it's called "reruns"! ;-)
Laura
Mary Jean Holmes
Grizel <sca...@dnaco.net> wrote:
<snip>
>Not everything in life HAS to be like something else! Some things can
>just BE.
Now, there's an excellent point, and echoes what was said about
Sheridan's need to just *be*. We are all products of generation
upon generation of human reproduction -- but does the fact that
all of that past is a part of us make us merely a knockoff, a
pale, derivate copy of our ancestors? Absolutely not! We each
have our own unique DNA structure, and in spite of all the
influences stamped upon our lives by genetics, role models,
parental influence, etc., we are still one of a kind.
B5 may be the child of all the literature and storytelling that
has gone before; like all children, it carries some vague
resemblance to its parents and ancestors, but in itself it is
unique, and capable of being great on its own merit.
If you're listening, Joe, you've been a good parent. You've
raised this child quite well indeed.
MJ
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The parochially-minded tend to flog petty issues to a nubbin."
---Robinton, A. McCaffrey's *All the Weyrs of Pern* (c)1991
mbo...@ukans.edu
Get over it.
The vast majority of people are pattern matchers or mismatchers, so
they're constantly comparing to see if things are alike or different.
Basically, you've got people that look for sameness (biggest %),
difference (next smallest), sameness with difference (next smallest),
and difference with sameness (smallest %). Tendency to do this is an
unconsciously ingrained behavior that they CAN be made consciously
aware of, but it takes practice and willingness on their part. Also,
the behavior is, of course, on a continuum, not discrete, and is
sometimes context specific.
So, that 's the long way of saying you've got as much chance of
getting people to stop comparing as you have of levitating up to
20,000 feet, finding the Holy Grail full of single malt waiting for
you to sip from it, and then soaring up to Santa's for a giftie before
a short stop at the Fortress of Solitude on the way home.
Grizel <sca...@dnaco.net> electronically penned the following
missive:
Nathan Mates
In article <57hn80$p...@raven.cc.ukans.edu>, <mbo...@ukans.edu> wrote:
>So, that 's the long way of saying you've got as much chance of
>getting people to stop comparing as you have of levitating up to
>20,000 feet, finding the Holy Grail full of single malt waiting for
>you to sip from it, and then soaring up to Santa's for a giftie before
>a short stop at the Fortress of Solitude on the way home.
No, the odds are identical to people heading for a library,
*reading* several classic myths and stories, and realizing that they
all share common elements, but they're not copies of each other. Once
people have a lot to compare with, they'll get over this silly habit
of comparing things to the one and only example of something in the
genre that they know about.
In the meantime, we can keep pointing folks towards the library and
telling them to start with Homer and don't stop until they've devoured
the classics of the past 3000 years.
Nathan Mates
--
<*> Nathan Mates http://www.visi.com/~nathan/ <*>
# What are the facts? Again and again and again-- what are the _facts_?
# Shun wishful thinking, avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors
# think-- what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? -R.A. Heinlein
J. Potts
In article <329BE9...@dnaco.net>, Grizel <sca...@dnaco.net> wrote:
>Ok, I am tired of hearing OVER AND OVER people reading in similairities
>between B5 and Trek, or B5 and Tolkien, or B5 and the Arthutrian
>legends, B5 vs Woody Woodpecker Cartoons. STOP! I's all bullshit! GET A
>LIFE! Just enjoy the damned show! Please replace your seat trays and
>proceed to your left out the bay doors, you will be assigned a weapon,
>kill yourself when prompted.
>
>Not everything in life HAS to be like something else! Somethings can
>just BE. They don't have to be modeled off anything, there doesn't have
>to be a plagerism involved for a show to hold it's own, and be
>insightful. They may have a familiar elements, but in a show this
>original and mind shaking it's hard to believe jms spent years trying to
>sell someone elses work only to be found a plagarist that early into the
>game. URG!
>
>I get sick and tired of having one of my friends continually say under
>her breath "yep, I think Ivanona is the lady of the lake" or Garibaldi
>is mordred now..." IS NOT...SHUT UP! "oh yeah I said, and I suppose
>Lenier is the walrus, coo coo cachoo." When you get a plauseable idea,
>then speak. There are tons of you insist this also, those of you getting
>really mad at this post are probably the ones doing this crap.
>
>All these stories have a thing in common, light vs dark, evil vs good.
>love vs hatred, knowing vs unknown it's a theme millienia old. GET OVER
>IT! IT's nothing but what it is.
Grizel, dear, Steve was funnin' with ya'. This is known as HUMOR and
damn fine humor at that. So chill, baby and go watch some B5.
--
JRP
"BLONDE? Blonde? You didn't TELL me you were a blonde....."
--Gharlane of Eddore
Jeannette Simpson
>Grizel <sca...@dnaco.net> complained:
>>Ok, I am tired of hearing OVER AND OVER people reading in similairities
>>between B5 and Trek, or B5 and Tolkien, or B5 and the Arthutrian
>>legends, B5 vs Woody Woodpecker Cartoons. STOP!
mbo...@ukans.edu replied:
>So, that 's the long way of saying you've got as much chance of
>getting people to stop comparing as you have of levitating up to
>20,000 feet, finding the Holy Grail full of single malt waiting for
>you to sip from it, and then soaring up to Santa's for a giftie before
>a short stop at the Fortress of Solitude on the way home.
But the guy sure has a *point*. I agree with the sentiment 100%.
Jeannette
Raymond
(* Spoilers for unknown *)
s-o...@staff.uiuc.edu (orso steven n) wrote:
[snipping a simply HUGE article]
> Who knows? If the American Popular Culture Division can find someone brave
> enough to stomach Sally Field and John Davidson in "The Girl With Something
> Extra" (1973-1974), it might even find the source for the telepaths. No,
> really . . . don't forget that Sally Field also played the woman with
> multiple personalities in *Sybil*, and look what happened to Talia Winters
> in "Divided Loyalties." There are no coincidences . . . .
Hmmn; Sally Field...
Have your field operatives been crossreferencing with her part in "The
Flying Nun"?? I'm not sure, but that might be the key to unravelling the
true source of Lyta. (Female, carrying Holy Spirits that can fly).
This could tie in nicely with the *Sybil* tread (as the use of two
telepaths was only necessitated by the change in actors. Hence there
being two characters from the one source!).
I could be on the wrong continent with this line of reasoning though,...
Raymond.
South Pacific.
Maureen
Grizel <sca...@dnaco.net> wrote:
:
:All these stories have a thing in common, light vs dark, evil vs good.
:love vs hatred, knowing vs unknown it's a theme millienia old. GET OVER
:IT! IT's nothing but what it is.
:
:Grizel
:Who is now mad enough to actually drive to work.
re: Get over it.
Admit it, Grizel. You stole that line from Don Henley, didn't you?
<VBG>
Maur
--------------------------------------------------
email: mau...@boondock.com
www: http://www.boondock.com
May God stand between you and harm
In all the empty places where you must walk
luna4...@aol.com
Grizel said:
<<Ok, I am tired of hearing OVER AND OVER people reading in similairities
between B5 and Trek, or B5 and Tolkien, or B5 and the Arthutrian
legends, B5 vs Woody Woodpecker Cartoons. STOP! I's all bullshit! GET A
LIFE! Just enjoy the damned show!
(snippety)
I get sick and tired of having one of my friends continually say under
her breath "yep, I think Ivanona is the lady of the lake" or Garibaldi
is mordred now..." IS NOT...SHUT UP! "oh yeah I said, and I suppose
Lenier is the walrus, coo coo cachoo.">>
Well, I for one credit jms with widening my interests quite a bit. I've
*always* loved the Arthurian stuff, long before B5. But now I'm also
reading about and discussing more myth, legend, philosophy, religion, and
other good stuff than I ever did before.
And best of all, I'm *finally* reading The Lord of the Rings, after years
of putting it off, and I'm loving every second....
And oh, by the way:
*Delenn* is the Lady of the Lake.
*Kosh*, it would seem, is the Walrus <goo goo ga joob>
TTFN
--------------------
Luna4...@aol.com
...."I'll be in the car...."
--------------------