Clemens and really poor umpiring
Dave Donat
happen to think that they are human, and if they miss a call, they missed a
call, and that is part of the game.
Today, in game 4 of the ALCS, I saw what I believe is the most grievious (well
worst) error in umpiring I have EVER seen. What was Terry Cooney thinking,
when he gives Clemens the heave-ho? I've seen the clip of Roger mouthing off
over and over again, and I still see NOTHING justifying it. Cooney appears to
have thought to himself "OK, I am going to show these folks who is boss, no one
is going to mouth off to me!" I personally thought he was a bit arrogant to
think he can use his power as an ump in this way.
The calls in question were ridiculous. Clemens threw 2 tight fastballs in a
row, the second appearing closer to the plate than the first (to me, anyway).
The first was a strike, the second a ball. Clemens then was standing in the
set position for his next pitch (no gestures, no waving of arms) yelling
(presumably obscenities) at Cooney, and then was ejected.
This just made me really mad, and to me destroyed the integrity of the game.
The fans were gypped out of a good pitching match-up, the A's are going to be
gypped out of what should have been a clean sweep. I can just see tons of
articles -- "What if Clemens had stayed in?"...
The whole thing just makes me really mad.
The only saving grace is that if the Bosox actually manage to win the game,
Clemens could probably pitch tomorrow...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ | Dave Donat | "You are confusing 'flakiness' |
| Interactive Fiction Buff | with 'style'! |
| d...@cec2.wustl.edu | |
| | - Jim Ingatowski, "Taxi" | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Professional
> worst) error in umpiring I have EVER seen. What was Terry Cooney thinking,
> when he gives Clemens the heave-ho? I've seen the clip of Roger mouthing off
> over and over again, and I still see NOTHING justifying it. Cooney appears to
What will you do in that situation when someone throws abuses at you
making personal remarks? Will you just ignore him or make his mouth shut.
Well. I agree with your observation that it was really poor officiating on the
part of the umpire.
> set position for his next pitch (no gestures, no waving of arms) yelling
> (presumably obscenities) at Cooney, and then was ejected.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Who will keep QUIET?
>
> This just made me really mad, and to me destroyed the integrity of the game.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And to me it preserved the integrity of the game. I am out there
to watch a game full of spotsmanship and not that of THUGS hurling personal
abuses at each other.
Edward Burns
>Today, in game 4 of the ALCS, I saw what I believe is the most grievious (well
>worst) error in umpiring I have EVER seen. What was Terry Cooney thinking,
>when he gives Clemens the heave-ho? I've seen the clip of Roger mouthing off
>over and over again, and I still see NOTHING justifying it.
In an interview before the game ended, Clemens admitted that he said
f*** when he was yelling at the ump. I think the sentence was "I'm not
f***ing talking to you." If you say that to *any* ump you should expect
to be thrown out.
I'm sorry it happened too but he should have known better.
-Ed
Tim Priddy
> I've seen the clip of Roger mouthing off over and over again,
> and I still see NOTHING justifying it.
Because of the poor sportsmanship shown by Roger in games one
and two he was warned before the game that he should just play baseball
and behave himself. Ron Barr on KSFO (SF radio) reported this after the
game. Can anyone confirm?
What I did see was Fay Vincent and Dr. Bobby Brown grinning
about the call as soon as it was made so I suppose that Cooney was
following their direction.
Cooney had already warned Clemens regarding his use of
obscenity and his protesting ball/strike calls. This according to
Cooney's post game interview.
> The fans were gypped out of a good pitching match-up [...]
Clemens took himself out of the game. Presumably because his
sore arm could take no more. I don't feel gypped at all. I've seen
Clemens lose to Stew plenty of times.
This was obviously another of Roger's off days.
B.T.W. that pitch was certainly a strike.
Tim Priddy (Oakland Coliseum, Sec: 123, row: 3, seat: 13)
internet: tpr...@homrun.intel.com
uucp: ...!{decwrl|hplabs!oliveb}!intelca!mipos3!tpriddy
Marc Sabatella
>This just made me really mad, and to me destroyed the integrity of the game.
>The fans were gypped out of a good pitching match-up, the A's are going to be
>gypped out of what should have been a clean sweep. I can just see tons of
>articles -- "What if Clemens had stayed in?"...
OK, what if Clemens had stayed in? Let's give him the benefit of the doubt,
and say Gallego doesn't hit the double off him, and that he manages to match
the bullpen's scoreless performance the rest of the way through.
So the A's still lead going into the ninth 1-0. My money says Eck pitches
the ninth, or at least comes in after Stew gives up the double, and the score
ends 1-0 (for the third time in the last few Stew-Rocket matchups).
Now, I know what you're thinking, the ejection was demoralizing; the Sox might
have scored some runs if it weren't for that. Three strikes against this
argument: first, the Sox had scored only one run in each of the prevous games;
second, Stewart was clearly putting on the best pitching performance of the
series, and third, the bullpen seemed to take the ejection as a rallying point
(at least for those who insist on seeing cause and effect relationships) - they
appeared to do better after the ejection than before - why should we think the
batters reacted differently?
Plus, Clemens was not looking that sharp - I suspect the A's would have scored
a few more off him.
All the same, the ejection was bogus, and I was really hoping Stewart would
pitch a shuout to take some of the taint off it.
--------------
Marc Sabatella
A's three-peat!
Robert B Davis
>Umpires have become completely self important and arrogant over the
>last 3 seasons. The umpires are the authorities in a game, but they
>From what I've witnessed this season, the umpires have completely gone
>beyond the bounds of good sportsmanship in an effort to bully players.
>That's not what they're there for. Fans pay to see the players play.
>They don't pay to see the umpires take over the game.
Soapbox time. Those who don't want to hear it have been warned. 8-)
The real problem with umpires is the protection they get from their
union. Here is the cycle, not just with the umpire's union but
with (I'll say it) ALL labor unions:
(1) Workers are oppressed, so
(2) labor unions are formed, so that
(3) concessions are forced from the bosses, to the point where
(4) the union becomes entirely too powerful, which makes
(5) the workers completely slothful and arrogant, because
(6) they cannot be fired.
Now I'm not saying that the idea behind labor unions is flawed. (1)
is really no better than (6), and the treatment of the players and
umpires by the owners in years past was despicable. What I don't
understand is why this sort of thing can never stop at stage (3)???
And if you have ever heard an interview with Richie Phillips (head
of the umps union), you'll see exactly what I mean. Phillips'
style of negotiation, from what I can tell, is "I demand, and
you concede." This is hardly what I'd call negotiation. Also,
umpires fear competency tests even more than teachers do. Hell, if
you're competent, why should a competency test scare you?
I'll gladly discuss this through e-mail, since it is not wholly a
baseball topic. I just thought I should point out the root (in my
opinion) of the umpires' arrogance in recent years.
Call me an idealist,
Bob Davis
Dave Donat
>making personal remarks? Will you just ignore him or make his mouth shut.
>Well. I agree with your observation that it was really poor officiating on the
>part of the umpire.
I am in no way defending what Clemens did. And ignoring him is not the answer.
I believe the correct thing to do would have been for Cooney to call time, and
go tell Clemens (and Morgan, so he knows what is going on) that if the abuse
continues, Clemens is going to be thrown out. The decision to eject seem FAR
to emotional to me.
>>
>> This just made me really mad, and to me destroyed the integrity of the game.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> And to me it preserved the integrity of the game. I am out there
>to watch a game full of spotsmanship and not that of THUGS hurling personal
>abuses at each other.
Agreed. So lets have the umps acting in a professional manner, and not
dictating the flow of the game just to show "who's boss"
Bill Beaulac
> And to me it preserved the integrity of the game. I am out there
>to watch a game full of spotsmanship and not that of THUGS hurling personal
>abuses at each other.
If this is the case, in all reality, you should perhaps direct
yourself to the nearest theater. It is a fact of life that at
times verbal, if not physical abuse, becomes part of virtually
any sport from the pros down to Little League. You show me an
athlete who hasn't become emotional and used verbal assaults to
relay it and I'll show you an unsuccessful athlete. I think the
whole point that people should realize is thst in the past few
years the umps have begun to try and take over the game. Be it
with their abuse of the balk rule or the quick thumb, it cheats
the fans. We pay to see the stars play, not umpires stick up
for their egos. It used to be if a player didn't blatantly show
up the ump in full view of the fans, no problem the ump would
usually walk away and let the player calm down. Now, more and
more, you see the umpire become the agressor in disputes. It
was apparent that Cooney was also yelling at Clemens. I don't
think he was saying "C'mon big guy calm down and we can get on
with the game, no problem." At the very least Cooney could have
called time, taken off his mask, approached the mound, and
confront Clemens. Tell him to shut-up, or whatever, and if he
doesn't then he's gone. I don't think Clemens being tossed
had anything to do with the outcome of the series, just the game
in general was tarnished by a man who doesn't want to hear cuss
words. Maybe he should remove himself from the very environment
he finds so objectionable.
-bill
Steven Smith
[U]mpires fear competency tests even more than teachers do. Hell, if
you're competent, why should a competency test scare you?
I'm not going to comment on the bulk of Bob's post on the umpires' union and
unions in general, since I understand and sympathize with most of his points.
I must take issue with the passage above, however. In the second sentence
("Hell..."), substitute the phrase "not on drugs" for "competent" and "urine"
for "competency" and you may see where the root of the disagreement with such
tests lies. Moreover, I don't think "fear" and "scare" are the appropriate
words, either. Such tests are resented more than feared. In this country
you're not supposed to have to prove your innocence. Now that I think about
it, it would be pretty scary if this somehow changed.
Steve
--
s...@blake.acs.washington.edu *
Steve Smith * "Why do I keep f*!#in' up?"
University of Washington HR-20 * -Young and Crazy
Seattle, WA 98195 *
Tom Barrett
>Dave Donat protests the old Clemens heave-ho:
>
> > I've seen the clip of Roger mouthing off over and over again,
> > and I still see NOTHING justifying it.
>
> Because of the poor sportsmanship shown by Roger in games one
>and two he was warned before the game that he should just play baseball
>and behave himself. Ron Barr on KSFO (SF radio) reported this after the
>game. Can anyone confirm?
According to the San Jose Mercury News, there had been warnings issued
to both teams about arguing balls and strikes, but no such warning to
Clemens in particular.
>
> What I did see was Fay Vincent and Dr. Bobby Brown grinning
>about the call as soon as it was made so I suppose that Cooney was
>following their direction.
Seems like a quantum leap in your reasoning there...
>
> Cooney had already warned Clemens regarding his use of
>obscenity and his protesting ball/strike calls. This according to
>Cooney's post game interview.
Again according the the Merc, Cooney had "started it" verbally (Cooney
admitted this himself). Clemens was shaking his head ON THE MOUND
for chrissakes when Cooney stepped out and yelled something like
"if you got something to say to me, say it. Otherwise
throw the ball and I'll call the balls and strikes." Yet another example
of umpires antagonizing players or managers, helping to inflame an incident.
>
> > The fans were gypped out of a good pitching match-up [...]
You better believe it. I was in the bleachers at the time and
there was a general feeling of disbelief and letdown.
>
> Clemens took himself out of the game. Presumably because his
>sore arm could take no more. I don't feel gypped at all. I've seen
>Clemens lose to Stew plenty of times.
Get real!! Took himself out?? Where did you here this? He was tossed.
Anyone with the slightest awareness of Clemens' history knows full well
that Roger would pitch if his arm was hanging from his shoulder by
nothing but bone. He may be a bit of a hothead and know some bad words,
but you're way off on this one, bucko. So you don't feel gypped.
How about relieved?
>
> This was obviously another of Roger's off days.
It was a little early to draw this conclusion. He was having a bad inning
but there were two out and he'd only given up one run. We can suppose
from now till doomsday but I gotta believe he'd have fared better against
Gallego than Bolton who had to respond with a woefully inadequate warm-up
(thanks again, Cooney). After Gallego, the A's did nothing offensively.
ALCS MVP voting:
1) Dave Stewart
2) Terry Cooney
--
-
Tom Barrett (408) 974-3364 AppleLink: TOM.BARRETT
Apple Computer MS 58A 10440 Bubb Road, Cupertino CA 95014
{amdahl,decwrl,hplabs,sun,voder,nsc,mtxinu,dual,unisoft}!apple!tjb
OR t...@apple.com
Matthew Wall
I think Jon Feinstein had it exactly right on NPR this morning: the umpire
should run the game, not feel like they're part of it. This means trying
to pretend you're inivisible, deaf, and definitely dumb if you're behind
the plate.
Matthew Wall
Humanities Computing Coordinator
Swarthmore College
wa...@campus.swarthmore.edu
Mark J. Rinehart
> In article <1990Oct10.2...@cec1.wustl.edu>, d...@cec2.wustl.edu (Dave Donat) writes:
> > worst) error in umpiring I have EVER seen. What was Terry Cooney thinking,
> > when he gives Clemens the heave-ho? I've seen the clip of Roger mouthing off
> > over and over again, and I still see NOTHING justifying it. Cooney appears to
> Well. I agree with your observation that it was really poor officiating on the
> part of the umpire.
> And to me it preserved the integrity of the game. I am out there
> to watch a game full of spotsmanship and not that of THUGS hurling personal
> abuses at each other.
Umpires have become completely self important and arrogant over the
last 3 seasons. The umpires are the authorities in a game, but they
are human also, and they are just as prone to being obnoxious as the
players are. In a playoff game especially, the umpire should be the
coolest head on the field. This incident shows that the hottest head
was the home plate ump. In this situation, if the ump had a problem
with Clemens, he should have said something to Joe Morgan first. That
would have been the *good sportsman* thing to do. Joe would have then
had a chance to tell Clemens to shut up (and who do you think would
have a better chance of cooling Clemens off at that point?) or face
ejection and chances are, that would have cooled things off enough to
allow the game to go on, without further incident. Because it is a
playoff game, each team should be given every chance to play a good
game, without having to worry about an ego problem from the umpires.
From what I've witnessed this season, the umpires have completely gone
beyond the bounds of good sportsmanship in an effort to bully players.
That's not what they're there for. Fans pay to see the players play.
They don't pay to see the umpires take over the game.
Mark
Mark J. Rinehart
> to be thrown out. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
WHY??????????????????????????????? Just what does that have to do with
the ball game?
> I'm sorry it happened too but he should have known better.
This kind of cracks me up - the use of the F word seems to be a
trigger with some umps to toss a player out. What are these umps
anyway - virgins who never heard or used that word before? Give me a
break. And it seems that just the use of the F word can get a player
thrown out of a game. Pure fucking bullshit!!!!!!
This is not a one sided incident here. Clemens may not be right, but
neither is the umpire. And further, the way an umpire truly shows that
he is controlling the game is not to get down to the level of the
player in this instance. The umpire did not use good judgement either.
Mark
Robert Kinne
>The fans were gypped out of a good pitching match-up, the A's are going to be
>gypped out of what should have been a clean sweep. I can just see tons of
>articles -- "What if Clemens had stayed in?"...
>
probably have bashed him around for 4-5 runs by the fourth inning,
and he would have been yanked for one of the Sox' ineffective
middle relief pitchers. When he left, the As already had one
run, which the Sox only matched in the ninth, when it was mean-
ingless. If the game had gone to the ninth 1-0, Boston would
have seen Eckersley and a 1-0 shutout. Give it a rest, as the
Boston manager should have done for Clemens. Aside from his
overly large ego, he is one of the best pitchers in the game,
and shouldn't have been risking further injury.
>
>The only saving grace is that if the Bosox actually manage to win the game,
>Clemens could probably pitch tomorrow...
>
after a six inning outing and four days rest?
Marc Sabatella
>("Hell..."), substitute the phrase "not on drugs" for "competent" and "urine"
>for "competency" and you may see where the root of the disagreement with such
>tests lies.
Nope, sorry, still don't. But that's the subject of yet another flame war.
Marc
Albert Woo
>
>Well, I am in the worst place possible for a diehard Red Sox fan, but I
>am not ashamed to say that I still love Boston.
>
>1. Hey, so we lost to the greatest team of the 80's. Join the club.
>2. There's plenty of excitement in store in 1991. (Mo Vaughn, Phil
>Plantier, Zane Smith)
>3. Fenway Park.
>4. Hey, anyone can win the next World Series, but only we won the FIRST
>World Series!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>IMHO, the World Series will make the ALCS look like a nail-biter.
>
>gui...@ocf.berkeley.edu
Zane Smith? Is he signed, sealed, and delivered for the Red Sox?
Naaahh... after all, "What would the Red Sox do with Zane Smith?"
Anyone can win the next World Series, seemingly, except for a certain
slow, plodding team that resides on Landsdowne St... :-)
You must mean that the ALCS will make the World Series look like a
nail-biter. I mean, how much worse could the W.S. be than a four-
game sweep? OK, maybe if the A's beat the N.L. team 15-2 every game.
But I doubt it. Look for the N.L. team to win at least two games and
make the A's fans sweat at least a token amount.
--Albert Woo
And I'm not even an A's fan!!!!
Asya Kamsky
>In article <7...@VAX1.CC.UAKRON.EDU> r1...@VAX1.CC.UAKRON.EDU (Robert B Davis) writes:
> [U]mpires fear competency tests even more than teachers do. Hell, if
> you're competent, why should a competency test scare you?
>I'm not going to comment on the bulk of Bob's post on the umpires' union and
>unions in general, since I understand and sympathize with most of his points.
>I must take issue with the passage above, however. In the second sentence
>("Hell..."), substitute the phrase "not on drugs" for "competent" and "urine"
>for "competency" and you may see where the root of the disagreement with such
>tests lies. Moreover, I don't think "fear" and "scare" are the appropriate
>words, either. Such tests are resented more than feared. In this country
>you're not supposed to have to prove your innocence. Now that I think about
>it, it would be pretty scary if this somehow changed.
>
>Steve
Ah, but this has to do with having basic skills to do your job -- not
whether your outside-job activities are following you to work.
I believe that the pilot of the plane I'm about to fly on at some time
flew that plane well enough to get the job. But it's 20 years later
and maybe he's going blind, deaf, senile... I'd like him to take a test.
Granted this is not a life and death situation, but I expect the umps to
do what they are paid for.
--
"She's making movies on location she don't know what it means"
Asya Kamsky e-mail: as...@ux5.lbl.gov
(415)486-7433 other: Lawrence Berkeley Labs, 50/232
Tom Barrett
> And to me it preserved the integrity of the game. I am out there
>to watch a game full of spotsmanship and not that of THUGS hurling personal
>abuses at each other.
I don't agree with this characterization but the problem is that one of
these _THUGS_ has the power to change the course of the game more
than ANY individual player. It was an abuse of power.
Zippy
Ron Ezetta writes:
> Tom Barrett writes:
> >Clemens was shaking his head ON THE MOUND
> >for chrissakes when Cooney stepped out and yelled something like
> >"if you got something to say to me, say it. Otherwise
> >throw the ball and I'll call the balls and strikes." Yet another example
> >of umpires antagonizing players or managers, helping to inflame an incident.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
According to Pena and Gallego, he had said something like,
"I hope you're not shaking your head at me."
> Clemens started the whole thing *by* shaking his head while standing
> on the mound. By standing on the mound he makes sure that *everyone*
> knows that he is upset with Cooney. This is a common trick among the
> more bush league pitchers. They don't have the guts or the brains to
> ask the umpire, in a resonable manner, why a pitch was called a ball.
Pitchers routinely shake their heads when looking in from the mound.
It's called "shaking off a call", and it's directed at the catcher.
Cooney was a bit over-sensitive in his assumption, and was IMHO trying to
assert his big ass on Clemens.
> Clemens antagonized the umpire, not the other way around. Clemens
> gets paid too much money to pull such a minor league stunt.
I don't feel too sorry for Roger, but I felt the toss was premature.
There are disputes over the claim that Clemens was personally warned by Cooney
during his first-inning warm-up.
As for what he said, after further review by myself, and four other brew-
chugging analysts, the first line was very certainly,
"I'm not fuckin' talking to you."
The second line looks more like,
"Put your mask on and just call the fuckin' game."
(This was odd, as Cooney did not remove his mask until after he had
charged out from behind the plate.)
The third line was lost, as the home-plate camera was pulling back.
From various players at the game, it was supposedly,
"You don't know the strikezone, you gutless cocksucker."
An interesting coincidence was that the announcers had cut to the A's dugout,
where one of there drone commentators was enlightening us on how Mike Gallego
has always used the same fielder's glove throughout his career.
Meanwhile, the live banter between Clemens and Cooney was totally missed.
When they did cut back, there was a brief shot of Gallego at the plate.
He signalled time, and stepped out. Cooney immediately charged out, gave
the heave-ho sign, and took off his mask.
What I found puzzling was that for a couple of minutes, Clemens was totally
unaware that he had been ejected. Was he on drugs? Was he paying attention
to anything in front of him?
When he did realize the fact, he charged Cooney, and was blocked by umpire,
Vic Voltaggio. The CBS camera crew also missed that, but there's a UPI photo
which was published in practically every sports
section of every newspaper (Boston excluded :-)
Anyway, I hope that MLBB wises up to the fact that CBS only wants the glamour
games, and would rather that there was no baseball prior to October.
Their announcers blow, and their coverage stinks.
They should stick to golf and basketball. Dick Stockton doesn't have a clue
to what's happenning on the field.
It's times like this that I find myself missing Joe Garagiola.
Zippy
William C. Guidera
Ben Ragunton
What destroyed it for me was the way the Boston duggout was reacting. I'll
grant them that they have a right to be upset about Clemens' ejection, but
that in NO WAY justifies all of the garbage that was thrown out from the
duggout onto the field. I was at the game, and everybody(Boston fans
included)found that to be in *extremely* poor taste.
Ben Ragunton
ragu...@water.llnl.gov
Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory
Livermore, California
Voice: (415)422-2461
|^^^^^^|
| |
| |
| (o)(o) _____________________
@ _) _ / |
| ,___| /__ Dave Dravecky |
| / \ is my hero! |
/___\ \____________________|
/ \
Ron Ezetta
>Clemens was shaking his head ON THE MOUND
>for chrissakes when Cooney stepped out and yelled something like
>"if you got something to say to me, say it. Otherwise
>throw the ball and I'll call the balls and strikes." Yet another example
>of umpires antagonizing players or managers, helping to inflame an incident.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Clemens started the whole thing *by* shaking his head while standing
on the mound. By standing on the mound he makes sure that *everyone*
knows that he is upset with Cooney. This is a common trick among the
more bush league pitchers. They don't have the guts or the brains to
ask the umpire, in a resonable manner, why a pitch was called a ball.
Clemens antagonized the umpire, not the other way around. Clemens
gets paid too much money to pull such a minor league stunt.
--
Age 18: * - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - - * Age 30:
1. Sex | Ron Ezetta | Days, weeks, months. | 1. Baseball
2. Beer |ro...@loowit.WR.TEK.COM| Who knows? - Eeyore | 2. Beer
3. Baseball * - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - - * 3. Sex
Lon Hildreth
>but there were two out and he'd only given up one run. We can suppose
>from now till doomsday but I gotta believe he'd have fared better against
>Gallego than Bolton who had to respond with a woefully inadequate warm-up
>(thanks again, Cooney). After Gallego, the A's did nothing offensively.
When a pitcher comes in to replace a pitcher who left because of injury
or ejection he gets as much time as he wants to warm up. If Bolton did
have a "woefully inadequate warm-up" it was no one's fault but his own.
--
Lon Hildreth ...!{decvax,uunet,samsung}!cg-atla!hildreth
Agfa Compugraphic or hild...@cg-atla.agfa.com
Wilmington, MA A Cub fan, but not a Bud man.
Michael Zimmers
fiasco out of proportion. Once Clemens, Joe Morgan and the rest of the
Rox had stopped going non-linear, the network took a station break.
Upon returning, one of the announcers labelled the ejection "the most
significant story in MLB in recent years".
Okay.--
Michael Zimmers | space for rent -- inquire within
Dom Nardy
Dave Donat
They also had the wonderful insight to bring in objective commentator Don
Dekhinger onto the scene. And surprise, surprise, he cautiously backed up the
actions of his colleague Cooney. Has anyone gotten the feeling that CBS does
not know how to do baseball very well...
Donald L. Savard
Matthew Wall
they *did* keep every game close. They scored first in three of four, and
discounting (ugh) the 9th inning of the first game, the scores were 3-1,
4-1, 4-1, and 3-1. That's not bad considering how abominable the relief
core is.
- Matt
P.S. The A's in five in the W.S. Can't win 'em all.
Ted Fischer
>I must say that, while the Red Sox clearly had their rouge hose blown off,
>they *did* keep every game close. They scored first in three of four, and
>discounting (ugh) the 9th inning of the first game, the scores were 3-1,
>4-1, 4-1, and 3-1. That's not bad considering how abominable the relief
>core is.
Actually, the 9th inning of the first game was the only time the
truly abominable parts of the bullpen pitched! (The bullpen has
a couple decent pitchers. Just not enough.)
Cheers,
-Valentine
Tom Barrett
>In article <45...@apple.Apple.COM> t...@Apple.COM (Tom Barrett) writes:
>
>>Clemens was shaking his head ON THE MOUND
>>for chrissakes when Cooney stepped out and yelled something like
>>"if you got something to say to me, say it. Otherwise
>>throw the ball and I'll call the balls and strikes." Yet another example
>>of umpires antagonizing players or managers, helping to inflame an incident.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Clemens started the whole thing *by* shaking his head while standing
> on the mound. By standing on the mound he makes sure that *everyone*
> knows that he is upset with Cooney. This is a common trick among the
> more bush league pitchers. They don't have the guts or the brains to
> ask the umpire, in a resonable manner, why a pitch was called a ball.
It'd be nice if we could eliminate the omniscient mind-reader types
from this discussion :-). Why couldn't Clemens have been shaking his
head at HIMSELF?? I play competitive/recreational sports, and often
do this very thing when I am frustrated with my personal performance.
Too much mind-reading required to draw your conclusion. The VERBAL
confrontation was initiated by Cooney -- no mind-reading here, even
Cooney's account verifies this. And it was the verbal confrontation
that got Clemens the quick thumb; no warning, just YER OUTTA HERE!
As far as dealing effectively with their disagreement, both Clemens and
Cooney were out-of-line. As far as abuse of power, Cooney blew it
big time. BTW, a player has to be VERY careful how he asks an ump
about balls or strikes as he can get tossed for arguing these calls.
>
> Clemens antagonized the umpire, not the other way around. Clemens
> gets paid too much money to pull such a minor league stunt.
What I read in the press and see and hear on the tube indicates that
the umps have gotten MUCH more antagonistic in the past few years.
This was a classic example. BTW, I've NEVER seen or heard of anyone
getting tossed for using a bad word or two from sixty feet away.
In this respect, this event seems unprecedented. It's hard to believe
that all managers and coaches who YELL IN THE FACE of umps only use
words like fudge, darn, and shoot, but maybe they do.
Stephen Gendron
>core is.
I thought the "abominable" releif core did a damn good job (except for that
unmentionable 9th inning). Especially in the 4th game. You can't score one
run a game and expect to win. Blame where blame is due: Abominable Sox offense.
Credit where credit is due: Terrific A's pitching and defense.
David Lukas;133B Barker;x2-6145
>happen to think that they are human, and if they miss a call, they missed a
>call, and that is part of the game.
>
>Today, in game 4 of the ALCS, I saw what I believe is the most grievious (well
>worst) error in umpiring I have EVER seen. What was Terry Cooney thinking,
>when he gives Clemens the heave-ho? I've seen the clip of Roger mouthing off
>have thought to himself "OK, I am going to show these folks who is boss, no one
>is going to mouth off to me!" I personally thought he was a bit arrogant to
>think he can use his power as an ump in this way.
>
.
.
.
.
>
>This just made me really mad, and to me destroyed the integrity of the game.
>gypped out of what should have been a clean sweep. I can just see tons of
>articles -- "What if Clemens had stayed in?"...
As a transplanted Red Sox fan who attended Game 4 of the ALCS at the coliseum,
I agree that Cooney crossed the line in ejecting Clemens. (Clemens should
know better by now, however. Some have suggested that Clemens got tossed on
purpose because he knew he couldn't win the game the way he was pitching.
I don't know if I believe this, but...)
The "what-if" articles have appeared. The next day's National cover (bay area
edition, at least) said the A's win was "made easier by Clemns' ejection."
Wait a minute! Clemens was the losing pitcher, right? He was charged with
all 3 runs, right? Do you suppose that, had he stayed in, he could have
pitched so amazingly well as to take those runs back? Red Sox relief
pitching was quite good that day, giving up no runs after that inning.
I believe Bolton allowed two of Clemens' base-runners to score, but as a
Red Sox fan I am wondering "What if Morgan had realized Clemens couldn't take
the pressure, and started Bolton instead?" Maybe Bolton could have beat
Stewart 1-0 and Clemens could have had a shot at Welch in Game 5. If I were
"following my hunches", that's what I would have done.
(I don't think you can win 4 playoff games 1-0. The Red Sox would have
been doomed anyway unless they started scoring!
David Lukas