Licence Midas + Delphi 7
Alessandro
client, he need buy a licence of Midas ( about $ 299).
I start a new project using 3-Tier / Delphi 7 / dbExpress. I would like know
if my new clients, that i install this project, need buy a licence of midas,
ou not .
Thanks
Alessandro
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
necessary components needed to incur a license.
--
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
(Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You)
Your only obligation in any lifetime is to be true to yourself. Being true to
anyone else or anything else is not only impossible, but the mark of a fake
messiah. (R Bach)
Bob Swart
> D7 Enterprise comes free deployment of MIDAS. Pro doesn't come with the
> necessary components needed to incur a license.
Are you sure about the latter? If I combine RemObjects SDK with Delphi 7
professional I can build multi-tier applications where the data packets are
sent from the server to the client, and resolved by both the ClientDataSet
and DataSetProvider components that are available in Delphi 7 Professional (I
tried, it works, without Delphi 7 Enterprise required).
I was under the impression that you needed a license if a data packet was
sent from one machine to another and/or was resolved on more than one
machine...
(is there an up-to-date DataSnap license document with those details?)
Groetjes,
Bob Swart (aka Dr.Bob - www.DrBob42.com)
--
Bob Swart Training & Consultancy (eBob42.com) - Delphi & Web Services
webmaster UK Borland User Group (BUG) & Borland UK Connections member
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
Bob Swart wrote:
>
> Hi Jeff,
>
> > D7 Enterprise comes free deployment of MIDAS. Pro doesn't come with the
> > necessary components needed to incur a license.
>
> Are you sure about the latter? If I combine RemObjects SDK with Delphi 7
> professional I can build multi-tier applications where the data packets are
> sent from the server to the client, and resolved by both the ClientDataSet
> and DataSetProvider components that are available in Delphi 7 Professional (I
> tried, it works, without Delphi 7 Enterprise required).
Since when did RemObjects come with D7 Pro? You can no longer buy licenses so
this would be a combination you can't legally do with D7 Pro. It is restricted
use of MIDAS under the D7 Pro license. In D6 it would have require a license
purchase, but as of D7 Borland does not sell MIDAS licenses anymore so you can
only do what is allowed in the license. D7 Pro alone does not ship with the
necessary components to violate the Pro license.
> I was under the impression that you needed a license if a data packet was
> sent from one machine to another and/or was resolved on more than one
> machine...
>
You do, but like I said you can no longer buy licenses and S7 Pro doesn't ship
with the capabilities to do this. You would have to go outside of Delphi Pro
and then you would be violating the MIDAS part of the Pro license.
Bob Swart
> Since when did RemObjects come with D7 Pro?
I'm sorry if I was unclear: RemObjects SDK is a third-party product, and
doesn't come with Delphi 7 Pro. But if you buy it (RemObjects SDK) and
install it in Delphi 6 or 7 Professional, then you have the capability of
producing multi-tier applications. Using a DataSetProvider on the server
side, the RemObjects component to do the communication, and a ClientDataSet
component on the client side.
> You can no longer buy licenses so this would be a combination you
> can't legally do with D7 Pro. It is restricted use of MIDAS under
> the D7 Pro license. In D6 it would have require a license purchase,
> but as of D7 Borland does not sell MIDAS licenses anymore so you can
> only do what is allowed in the license. D7 Pro alone does not ship
> with the necessary components to violate the Pro license.
For Delphi 6 Pro, you would need to purchase a DataSnap license in order to
deploy such applications. The same thing for Delphi 7 Pro, although I now
understand from your words that Borland no longer sells DataSnap licenses for
Delphi 7 Pro? Wow, I didn't know that. Was that explicitly stated somewhere?
Did I miss that? I only recall that Delphi 7 Enterprise (or higher) now
contains a DataSnap license "in the box", but to me that didn't imply that
you can no longer purchase a DataSnap license for Delphi 7 Professional.
Hmm...
> You do, but like I said you can no longer buy licenses and S7 Pro
> doesn't ship with the capabilities to do this. You would have to
> go outside of Delphi Pro and then you would be violating the MIDAS
> part of the Pro license.
Ouch! That's a serious limitation of the Pro license (the fact that you can
only extend it to include a DataSnap license by purchasing Delphi 7
Enterprise, which is more expensive than a "stand-alone DataSnap license"
used to cost)...
Alessandro Federici - RemObjects Software, Inc.
news:3E55C0EF...@mindspring.com...
> as of D7 Borland does not sell MIDAS licenses anymore so you can
> only do what is allowed in the license.
And what is this for?
http://shop.borland.com/dr/v2/ec_MAIN.Entry10?V1=378262&PN=1&SP=10023&xid=39
696&DSP=&CUR=840&PGRP=0&CACHE_ID=0
--
Best regards,
Alessandro Federici
RemObjects Software, Inc.
www.remobjects.com
al...@remobjects.com
marc hoffman
> You do, but like I said you can no longer buy licenses and S7 Pro
> doesn't ship with the capabilities to do this. You would have to go
> outside of Delphi Pro and then you would be violating the MIDAS part
> of the Pro license.
How about getting your facts straight first?
--
marc hoffman (m...@elitedev.com)
elitedevelopments software
http://www.elitedev.com
Everything is useless
Nothing works at all
Nothing ever matters
Welcome to the fall
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
"Alessandro Federici - RemObjects Software, Inc." wrote:
>
> "Jeff Overcash (TeamB)" <jeffov...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:3E55C0EF...@mindspring.com...
>
> > as of D7 Borland does not sell MIDAS licenses anymore so you can
> > only do what is allowed in the license.
>
> And what is this for?
>
> http://shop.borland.com/dr/v2/ec_MAIN.Entry10?V1=378262&PN=1&SP=10023&xid=39
> 696&DSP=&CUR=840&PGRP=0&CACHE_ID=0
That license is available for D6 Enterprise owners. DataSnap license have never
been available for purchase to Pro users. John Kaster is the one who told me
that DataSnap license are no longer for sale with D7. According to him if you
need a deployment license you must
"If a Pro user decides he or she wants to create an application using a
DataSnap server, they simply need to purchase an Enterprise version. Everyone
who works on developing the DataSnap server application must have a legal copy
of Enterprise (or above)."
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
marc hoffman wrote:
>
> Jeff,
>
> > You do, but like I said you can no longer buy licenses and S7 Pro
> > doesn't ship with the capabilities to do this. You would have to go
> > outside of Delphi Pro and then you would be violating the MIDAS part
> > of the Pro license.
>
> How about getting your facts straight first?
>
My facts are straight according to John Kaster.
Alessandro Federici - RemObjects Software, Inc.
> My facts are straight according to John Kaster.
So it looks. I just talked to him.
Good thing we always say to our customers to check with Borland on Datasnap
legal matters :-)
Alex Ehrlich
I always get sick on "go buy the big license set for MIDAS". Go for
HyperBase by Vladimir Gaitanoff (http://www.vglib.com/ or look around on
Torry or wherever), it's a free drop-in replacement for MIDAS (up to D6,
AFAIK) with full source.
Alex
marc hoffman
>> How about getting your facts straight first?
> My facts are straight according to John Kaster.
well. then tell him to better remove the products from the shop that no
longer are sold.
btw: does this also mean that anybody who's developing DataSnap applications
with Delphi 6 Enterprise will no longer be allowed to deploy them (since he
can't buy a license)? if so, i guess that must have made a lot of Delphi 6
customers very happy...
wondering,
--
marc hoffman (m...@elitedev.com)
elitedevelopments software
http://www.elitedev.com
"When two events occur simultaneously pertaining to the
same object of inquiry, one must always pay strict attention."
Anders Melander
>(is there an up-to-date DataSnap license document with those details?)
From Delphi 7 license.txt:
-CUT---CUT---CUT---CUT---CUT---CUT---CUT---CUT-
ADDITIONAL LICENSE TERMS FOR DEPLOYING MULTI-TIER WORKS
The Enterprise and Architect Editions of the Product include redistributable files identified as "ClientDataset Redistributables" in the "readme" or "deploy" files for creating multi-tier and client/server application Works. A valid license of either Delphi 7 Architect or Delphi 7 Enterprise includes the right to develop, install and deploy the ClientDataset Redistributables as part of your Work for the purpose of supporting data sharing among two or more computers.
"Data sharing" refers to any use of the ClientDataset Redistributables, including but not limited to DataSnap Middleware Drivers, for supporting the transmission, by any means, of data from one computer to another for use by ClientDataset Redistributables installed on another computer that get resolved back to the original datastore.
The DataSnap Middleware drivers are identified as TSOAPConnection, TSocketConnection and TDCOMConnection in the VCL framework and TSOAPconnection in the CLX framework.
-CUT---CUT---CUT---CUT---CUT---CUT---CUT---CUT-
Bob Swart
> From Delphi 7 license.txt:
AFAIK, this quote is not part of the Delphi 7 Professional license.txt.
Furthermore, it does not explicitly say that "a valid license of either
Delphi 7 Enterprise or Delphi 7 Architect is the *only* way to obtain the
right to develop, install and deploy the ClientDataSet Redistributables as
part of your Work for the purpose of supporting data sharing among two or
more computers", but from what I hear this is indeed the case. Bummer. I wish
I knew this before I wrote my latest article on this...
marc hoffman
> AFAIK, this quote is not part of the Delphi 7 Professional
> license.txt.
> Furthermore, it does not explicitly say that "a valid license of
> either Delphi 7 Enterprise or Delphi 7 Architect is the *only* way to
> obtain the right to develop, install and deploy the ClientDataSet
> Redistributables as part of your Work for the purpose of supporting
> data sharing among two or more computers", but from what I hear this
> is indeed the case. Bummer. I wish I knew this before I wrote my
> latest article on this...
plus (not that i say i'd *recommend* this should be done; i believe Borland
do deserve their license fees), the DataSnap license pretty much tries to
enforce a limit on what you can do with your *data*, not whether you may use
certain Borland provided code or not. It does not prohibit you from using
ClientDataSet, it just does not allow you to move your data that was stored
by the ClientDataSet in a data packet from one machine to another. Since
your data pretty much belongs to yourself, not Borland, my guess is it would
be very hard to enforce legally to keep someone from moving their data from
one pc to another. But of course i am not a lawyer.
Case in point: you write a standalone application to store your address
database and store data in a .cds file. Unfortunately your harddrive becomes
defect and you need to copy your data to a different pc to prevent data
loss - and you supposedly can't do that without a DataSnap license.
Alessandro Federici - RemObjects Software, Inc.
news:3E5698AD...@chello.nl...
> Furthermore, it does not explicitly say that "a valid license of either
> Delphi 7 Enterprise or Delphi 7 Architect is the *only* way to obtain the
> right to develop, install and deploy the ClientDataSet Redistributables as
> part of your Work for the purpose of supporting data sharing among two or
> more computers"
Agreed, that is a very important detail and that is made even more confusing
by the fact licenses are sold on borland.com and don't state they only apply
to D6.
I am sure they will address the problem asap.
I informed John Kaster and he should promptly check this thread.
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
marc hoffman wrote:
>
> Jeff,
>
> >> How about getting your facts straight first?
>
> > My facts are straight according to John Kaster.
>
> well. then tell him to better remove the products from the shop that no
> longer are sold.
>
Delphi 6 MIDAS license are still sold.
> btw: does this also mean that anybody who's developing DataSnap applications
> with Delphi 6 Enterprise will no longer be allowed to deploy them (since he
> can't buy a license)? if so, i guess that must have made a lot of Delphi 6
> customers very happy...
>
They can buy them for D6. You can't buy D7 MIDAS licenses which is what I said
in the first place. I never said you can't buy them for D6 Enterprise.
--
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
(Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You)
If there is somebody up there could they throw me down a line. Just a
little helping hand just a little understanding. Just some answers to the
questions that surround me now. If there's somebody up there could
they throw me down a line. (Fish)
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
"Alessandro Federici - RemObjects Software, Inc." wrote:
>
> "Jeff Overcash (TeamB)" <jeffov...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:3E563C64...@mindspring.com...
>
> > My facts are straight according to John Kaster.
>
> So it looks. I just talked to him.
>
I'm glad John backs up what I said.
--
Jeff Overcash (TeamB)
(Please do not email me directly unless asked. Thank You)
marc hoffman
> Delphi 6 MIDAS license are still sold.
well. you said "You can no longer buy licenses", which suggested that
licenses were sold at some point in time, and no longer are.
> They can buy them for D6. You can't buy D7 MIDAS licenses which is
> what I said in the first place.
it might be what you *intended* to say, not what you said.
Dan Miser
news:3e56...@newsgroups.borland.com...
<snip>
> your data pretty much belongs to yourself, not Borland, my guess is it
would
> be very hard to enforce legally to keep someone from moving their data
from
> one pc to another. But of course i am not a lawyer.
>
guess on that, much less offer pseudo-advice to others on the vailidity and
legality of this license.
> Case in point: you write a standalone application to store your address
> database and store data in a .cds file. Unfortunately your harddrive
becomes
> defect and you need to copy your data to a different pc to prevent data
> loss - and you supposedly can't do that without a DataSnap license.
>
This is ***NOT*** true. The license specifically says that 2 conditions need
to be met before you need to obtain a license:
1. You need to transfer a DataSnap datapacket between 2 or more machines
2. You operate on that datapacket with CDS Redistributables on both ends.
So copying a cds file to another machine is not prohibited. You can email
it, FTP it, MQ it, or do whatever you want to it as long as you don't use
CDS Redistributables on both machines to manipulate the data packet.
--
Dan Miser
http://www.distribucon.com
John Kaster (Borland)
> plus (not that i say i'd *recommend* this should be done; i believe Borland
> do deserve their license fees), the DataSnap license pretty much tries to
> enforce a limit on what you can do with your *data*,
No, Marc. That is not what the license does. The license regards using Borland
patented technology to manipulate your data.
> one pc to another. But of course i am not a lawyer.
So it would be far better for you to not render a legal opinion.
> database and store data in a .cds file. Unfortunately your harddrive becomes
> defect and you need to copy your data to a different pc to prevent data
> loss - and you supposedly can't do that without a DataSnap license.
You are mistaken. It would be better for you to make sure of your facts before
making statements, as you reminded Jeff Overcash earlier in this thread.
--
John Kaster, Borland Developer Relations, http://bdn.borland.com
$1280/$50K: http://homepages.borland.com/jkaster/tnt/thanks.html
Make a wish: http://qc.borland.com * Get source http://codecentral.borland.com
Alessandro Federici
news:3e5c3bbf$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> This is ***NOT*** true. The license specifically says that 2 conditions
need
> to be met before you need to obtain a license:
> 1. You need to transfer a DataSnap datapacket between 2 or more machines
> 2. You operate on that datapacket with CDS Redistributables on both ends.
I thought the same but apparently we're wrong. Using the bins on one machine
for the prupose of streaming them is enough.
(2) is not mandatory. When I ask John if I could use the CDS to broadcast
updates using my own classes I was told I cannot.
It apparently doesn't matter if you use the Borland redists on both ends.
I would LOVE to be wrong. If that is the case then I can definitely use the
CDS in RO apps (assuming I don't use TProviders on the server side).
Specific example: client side I use the CDS and save it as XML or binary
data using either
the internal format or a custom one I create. Then use my RO channels to
send this stream them
to an RO provider/resolver which is ENTIRELY written by me and executes the
SQL statements.
Kaster told me I cannot do that.
For the reference, there's a long thread started by John Jacobson in
non-tech about this in which I asked this
question and got an answer that doesn't match your interpretation of the
license.
(BTW I agree with your interpretation anyways but apparently that is not
what was meant).
> So copying a cds file to another machine is not prohibited. You can email
> it, FTP it, MQ it, or do whatever you want to it as long as you don't use
> CDS Redistributables on both machines to manipulate the data packet.
I'd triple check with Kaster before saying this (I CCed him).
Once again, if what you said is true I would have NO problems in using the
CDS in RO assuming I make my own resolvers for the server side.
Anders Melander
>> So copying a cds file to another machine is not prohibited. You can email
>> it, FTP it, MQ it, or do whatever you want to it as long as you don't use
>> CDS Redistributables on both machines to manipulate the data packet.
>
>I'd triple check with Kaster before saying this (I CCed him).
>Once again, if what you said is true I would have NO problems in using the
>CDS in RO assuming I make my own resolvers for the server side.
Does it really matter what JK says if the license says another thing?
From your description of your system I'd say you don't need a license.
Alessandro Federici
news:f83p5v0p097bvlgvk...@4ax.com...
> Does it really matter what JK says if the license says another thing?
> From your description of your system I'd say you don't need a license.
And so say all those I asked to and it is what I believe it's clearily
written
in all the Delphi 6 and 7 licenses but unfortunately unless I receive a
clear "you're reading the license correctly" from Borland authorities I
cannot risk to base my work on something that is *potentially* not legal.
I am sure that if I used it and for some reasons we'd end up in court I'd
win (after all English is English) but I think my money are better spent
other ways.
For the 100th time ;-)
--------------------------
D6: "Data sharing" refers to any use of the ClientDataset Redistributables
for supporting the transmission by any
means of data from one computer to another ***for use by ClientDataset
Redistributables installed on another computer***."
D7: "Data sharing" refers to any use of the ClientDataset Redistributables,
including but not limited to DataSnap
Middleware Drivers, for supporting the transmission, by any means, of data
from one computer to another ***for use
by ClientDataset Redistributables installed on another computer*** that get
resolved back to the original datastore."
--------------------------
According to what's above, if the other machine application doesn't use CDS
redist (like in my example) there's no violation.
I believe according to John Kaster there is.
To him the clarification (once again).
Alessandro Federici
news:3e5c9c79$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> I am sure that if I used it and for some reasons we'd end up in court I'd
> win (after all English is English) but I think my money are better spent
> other ways.
For the record, this was related to the sentence "Does it really matter what
JK says if the license says another thing?"
and means "yes, it definitely matters!" <G>
Anders Melander
>unless I receive a clear "you're reading the license correctly" from
>Borland authorities I cannot risk to base my work on something that
>is *potentially* not legal.
I understand, but then you should get the statement from the *proper* authorities.
>According to what's above, if the other machine application doesn't use CDS
>redist (like in my example) there's no violation.
Additionally, with D7, the server can't use the high level connection components i.e. the "DataSnap Middleware Drivers", which as far as I understood, you *don't* use.
The "including but not limited to" part is so vague that it's effectually void IMO, IANAL, etc.
This all reminds me of the 3rd party midas.dll replacement (I forget the product name) that got snuffed by Borland because they claimed use of it didn't circumvent the MIDAS license requirement, even though the D6 MIDAS license requirements explicitly states that you don't need a license if you don't use borland's midas.dll.
Craig Stuntz [TeamB]
> This all reminds me of the 3rd party midas.dll replacement (I forget
> the product name) that got snuffed by Borland because they claimed
> use of it didn't circumvent the MIDAS license requirement, even
> though the D6 MIDAS license requirements explicitly states that you
> don't need a license if you don't use borland's midas.dll.
You're thinking of HyperBase. However, that isn't what the D6 license
says. midas.dll is not even mentioned in the license.rtf file at all.
The author of HyperBase *claimed* that replacing midas.dll was enough
to evade paying for a DataSnap license, but this claim is not
substantiated by the license. He continued to claim this even after it
was pointed out to him that the license said no such thing. I consider
this actively lying to Delphi developers, and it's among the most
shameful behavior I've ever seen from a component vendor.
For reference, I'm including the complete text of the D6 license
regarding DataSnap applications below.
-Craig
ADDITIONAL LICENSE TERMS FOR DEPLOYING MULTI-TIER WORKS
This version of the software may include redistributable files
identified as "ClientDataset Redistributables" for creating multi-tier
application Works. Installation and use of the ClientDataset
Redistributables for supporting data sharing among two or more
computers requires purchase of a DataSnap Deployment License, available
separately from Borland; please refer to the on-line documentation,
including DEPLOY.TXT, for contact information. "Data sharing" refers
to any use of the ClientDataset Redistributables for supporting the
transmission by any means of data from one computer to another for use
by ClientDataset Redistributables installed on another computer. Note
that purchase of a DataSnap Deployment License is not required for
deploying an application which does not use ClientDataset
Redistributables for supporting such data sharing among computers.
--
Craig Stuntz [TeamB] . Vertex Systems Corp. . Columbus, OH
Delphi/InterBase Weblog : http://delphi.weblogs.com
InterBase Perf. Monitor : http://delphi.weblogs.com/IBPerformanceMonitor
InterBase PLANalyzer 1.1: http://delphi.weblogs.com/IBPLANalyzer
Dan Miser
or not you needed a license.
"Anders Melander" <and...@aztech.dk> wrote in message
news:22jp5v82amhg4jg6i...@4ax.com...
marc hoffman
> This is ***NOT*** true. The license specifically says that 2 conditions
need
> to be met before you need to obtain a license:
> 1. You need to transfer a DataSnap datapacket between 2 or more machines
> 2. You operate on that datapacket with CDS Redistributables on both ends.
> So copying a cds file to another machine is not prohibited. You can email
> it, FTP it, MQ it, or do whatever you want to it as long as you don't use
> CDS Redistributables on both machines to manipulate the data packet.
iow, i can *copy* the dataset to another computer, but i may not access it
again (since that would require using the "CDS redistributables"? what good
does it do that i can move my data, if i'm not allowed to touch them
afterwards?
Anders Melander
>You're thinking of HyperBase.
Yes.
>midas.dll is not even mentioned in the license.rtf file at all.
From Delphi 6 deploy.txt:
A server deployment license is not required for deploying
MIDAS.DLL and STDVCL40.DLL in an application in which
the client and server reside on the same machine. These two
files are the Client Dataset Redistributables referred to
in the License Statement.
Anders Melander
>That is incorrect. MIDAS.DLL was never, ever the deciding factor in whether
>or not you needed a license.
It might not have been how the license was intended to be, but then the license text should have been better phrased.
I have no problem with Borland wanting money for their work, but it does look to me as if the MIDAS/DataSnap license is a moving target.
Here's how I see it: First there's the D6 license which, as I read it, makes midas.dll the cardinal point. Then when someone writes a midas.dll replacement, Borland claims that midas.dll is not the deciding factor. Now we have the D7 license which, again as I read it, focuses on midas.dll *and* the connection components. Then when someone writes a system that doesn't use midas.dll (on the server) or the connection components, Borland claims that a DataSnap license is still required.
It actually looks as if Borland doesn't want anyone to use TClientDataset without a DataSnap license for anything that involves more than one tier (excluding the database tier). If that is the case, why not simply say so?
Of course I might have misunderstood everything, which I will happily accept if anyone can prove it based on the license documents, but there does at least seem to be a big problem in the wording of the license text. The D7 license text is an improvement from D6, but apparently it isn't good enough yet. How hard can it be?
Craig Stuntz [TeamB]
> >midas.dll is not even mentioned in the license.rtf file at all.
>
> From Delphi 6 deploy.txt:
>
> A server deployment license is not required for deploying
> MIDAS.DLL and STDVCL40.DLL in an application in which
> the client and server reside on the same machine. These two
> files are the Client Dataset Redistributables referred to
> in the License Statement.
That isn't the license, but you've just proved my point anyway.
The passage you cite explicitly states that you do not need a license
when client and server are on the same machine (true of any
MIDAS/DataSnap application, no matter whose midas.dll you use). It
contains no statement that a DataSnap license is never required when
not using Borland's midas.dll.
There is no such statement in the license.
-Craig
John Kaster (Borland)
> (2) is not mandatory. When I ask John if I could use the CDS to broadcast
> updates using my own classes I was told I cannot.
You can do this:
1. retrieve a CDS from Machine A onto Machine B
2. work with the data on Machine B
3. resolve the data on Machine B into a different, complete data set
4. Send that data back to Machine A, and use your own differencing engine to
update the data on Machine A.
If you don't transport the delta information back to Machine A for updating
the master database, you don't need a licnese. If you pass the delta
information back to Machine A from Machine B and then use that delta to update
the master data, you need a DataSnap license, or in the case of Delphi 7,
Enterprise or Architect.
IOW, using the automatic change tracking capabilities of CDSs across machine
boundaries is the crucial piece.
Dan Miser
> iow, i can *copy* the dataset to another computer, but i may not access it
> again (since that would require using the "CDS redistributables"? what
good
> does it do that i can move my data, if i'm not allowed to touch them
> afterwards?
>
Correct. You can copy the CDS file. Your whole premise in the last post was
that you couldn't even do that without incurring a license, which was wrong.
You are not allowed to use CDS Redistributables to operate on the file once
it's been moved to another machine unless you want to obtain a license.
As for what good that does, it allows for you to create a backup of your
data without incurring a license. If you want multi-machine, DataSnap-type
behavior, then you're going to end up needing a license. It's about that
simple.
IIRC, there is even some new loosening of the licens in D7 Pro to allow for
the case where you can distribute a CDS file to multiple computers and use
CDS Redistributable to acceess that file without incurring a license - as
long as you don't resolve back to the original machine.
Dan Miser
Developers need to quit playing lawyer. If there is a real and serious
question about what the license says, and you don't want to take Borland's
word for it, I would recommend contacting a lawyer to find out. Of course,
even there, multiple lawyers will say multiple things. That's the way the
world works. There's not much you or I can do to change that.
The reason the license was phrased the way it was was to allow for *more*
freedom on the developer's part. The easiest license would have been
something like "If you use CDS, DataSetProvider, MIDAS.DLL, or anything else
relating to DataSnap, you need a license.". Instead, Borland went to a great
deal of trouble to try and allow for usage in other scenarios without
requiring the purchase of a license.
Using MIDAS.DLL (and it's predecessor DBCLIENT.DLL) was never the sole
determination for requiring a license. Never. Not even in D3. The perfect
example that backs that up is the JMIDAS product Borland released. It didn't
use the DLL, but it required the license. That was the whole point of the
exercise.
As for the "moving target" statement, I'll agree. But only as it pertains to
making MIDAS more available with each version. From a $5,000 product to a
per-user option to a $300 product, to being available in Pro, to allowing
"forward-only datasets" in D7, to including the license in D7, I see a
continual push forward to get this technology in the hands of as many people
as possible.
As for "how hard can it be", it can be very hard. Some people are going to
go through countless contortions to try and bend the rules. As I said above,
the license could have been very easy, but that would have meant black and
white. Borland has done a great job of providing the gray area to many
developers so that the technology could be used without incurring the
purchase of a license.
--
Dan Miser
http://www.distribucon.com
"Anders Melander" <and...@aztech.dk> wrote in message
news:qoop5vgmlfd13gh0j...@4ax.com...
marc hoffman
> As for what good that does, it allows for you to create a backup of your
> data without incurring a license.
but what good is a backup i'm not allowed to access/restore in case the
original fails?
> IIRC, there is even some new loosening of the licens in D7 Pro to allow
for
> the case where you can distribute a CDS file to multiple computers and use
> CDS Redistributable to acceess that file without incurring a license - as
> long as you don't resolve back to the original machine.
that's different/better of course. i was not aware of that. that's good news
for those that don't have D7 Enterprise and still want to use MyBase.
thanx,
marc
Alessandro Federici
news:3e5cecb0$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Hi John,
and thanks for the support. See below:
> You can do this:
> 1. retrieve a CDS from Machine A onto Machine B
> 2. work with the data on Machine B
> 3. resolve the data on Machine B into a different, complete data set
Define "resolve". It's a crucial piece.
What I need to stream back it's obviously delta information (in whichever
form) that has been
generated on Machine B. So you're telling me that if I put the delta
information in my own dataset and then stream
that one it is ok? Later on in this email I read conflicting information
(marked as **???**).
> 4. Send that data back to Machine A, and use your own differencing engine
to
> update the data on Machine A.
Yes, that is understood. On the second machine there cannot be any CDS
redist used.
Still I don't see why the license would suggest I have to put the delta that
was in machine B in another TDataset (or media) before
streaming it back. Specifically, if I have a resolver that is able to
understand CDS XML or the binary stream should have been sufficient to avoid
getting in conflict with what Dan marked as (2).
Please, point me to the part of license that tells that if I have something
written by me which is able to replace Borland's CDS redists on Machine A, I
am in violation.
> If you don't transport the delta information back to Machine A for
updating
> the master database, you don't need a licnese. If you pass the delta
> information back to Machine A from Machine B and then use that delta to
update
> the master data, you need a DataSnap license, or in the case of Delphi 7,
> Enterprise or Architect.
**???**
This is what I thought you said in that thread in non-tech but I guess it
depends on the meaning of " resolve the data on Machine B into a different,
complete data set" which I don't think I am taking the way you do.
According to this last sentence it does not matter if I have CDS redists
used on the other side which is why I told Dan (2) is not required.
> IOW, using the automatic change tracking capabilities of CDSs across
machine
> boundaries is the crucial piece.
I understand that and I agree it makes total business sense.
The issue is that I (and some other people) don't see this written in the
license.
Alessandro Federici
> The easiest license would have been
> something like "If you use CDS, DataSetProvider, MIDAS.DLL, or anything
else
> relating to DataSnap, you need a license.". Instead, Borland went to a
great
> deal of trouble to try and allow for usage in other scenarios without
> requiring the purchase of a license.
Actually would have just been "If you use CDS, DataSetProvider, MIDAS.DLL,
or anything else
relating to DataSnap in a multi tier application using non-Borland
middleware, you need a license."
Yes. This would definitely remove any doubt.
Alessandro Federici
> I understand, but then you should get the statement from the *proper*
authorities.
John Kaster is as proper of an authority as I need.
He does represent Borland's words so that's good enough for me.
> Additionally, with D7, the server can't use the high level connection
components i.e. the "DataSnap Middleware Drivers", which as far as > I
understood, you *don't* use.
> The "including but not limited to" part is so vague that it's effectually
void IMO, IANAL, etc.
> This all reminds me of the 3rd party midas.dll replacement (I forget the
product name) that got snuffed by Borland because they claimed > use of it
didn't circumvent the MIDAS license requirement, even though the D6 MIDAS
license requirements explicitly states that you
> don't need a license if you don't use borland's midas.dll.
The issue in that case seems that the guy made his own replacements USING
parts of Borland code which is definitely a violation
of anything you can think of. This wouldn't be my case obviously.
Alessandro Federici
> If you want multi-machine, DataSnap-type
> behavior, then you're going to end up needing a license. It's about that
> simple.
Actually it is that simple but the problem is that that is not what some
people understand by reading the license.
The way license reads to me and many others is like "If you want
multi-machine, DataSnap-type behavior, and you are using the CDS redists on
both ends, you need a license".
That is really all I am trying to say.
See the better (IMO) wording that could have been used in my other reply to
you.
Borland has God's given right NOT to see their stuff used in a competing
product and they
should enforce that.
Dan Miser
> > As for what good that does, it allows for you to create a backup of your
> > data without incurring a license.
>
> but what good is a backup i'm not allowed to access/restore in case the
> original fails?
I don't see that this license collides with the "make a backup" clause of
every license known to mankind. I suppose if you read the DataSnap license
that narrowly, then you could make an argument supporting your position.
However, I think you're arguing over semantics here. I would be willing to
bet huge sums of money that if this was to truly happen, then Borland would
grant an exclusion to that license.
Of course, the absolute best thing to do would be to contact Borland and ask
them. If that doesn't suffice, contact a lawyer who knows the intricacies of
such things.
Dan Miser
distinction between Borland and non-Borland middleware. Using the words
middleware and "multi-tier application" is also open to interpretation. When
is software categroized as middleware? What about physical vs. logical
tiers? Does a DB count as a tier? etc.
It's a very concise problem (provide a legally binding license that covers
all cases) with a very complex solution. No matter what text you type, there
will be holes in it, unless you resort to legalese, at which point, we're
back to where we started.
I really do understand that not many people like the license. But I do like
that Borland has continually made MIDAS/DataSnap more available.
--
Dan Miser
http://www.distribucon.com
"Alessandro Federici" <alef@[nospam]remobjects.com> wrote in message
news:3e5d215f$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
Alessandro Federici
> Well, that's not equivalent to the way the old license read. There was no
> distinction between Borland and non-Borland middleware.
Yes, and that is the whole wording problem.
It's not what was said, but it is what it was meant I believe.
> Using the words middleware and "multi-tier application" is also open to
interpretation. When
> is software categroized as middleware? What about physical vs. logical
> tiers? Does a DB count as a tier? etc.
It's not open to any interpretation. Any definition of multitier system is
the same.
Client - Middle Tier - DB (where client and middle tier are on different
machines).
> No matter what text you type, there
> will be holes in it, unless you resort to legalese, at which point, we're
> back to where we started.
Unfortunately the license resorted to legalese.
> I really do understand that not many people like the license. But I do
like
> that Borland has continually made MIDAS/DataSnap more available.
For the record, I don't have a SINGLE problem in using or paying for the
license.
I don't belive in freebies and Borland has all the rights to get $ for their
work.
What I am trying to understand better or to help formulating with better
words is JUST a sentence.
This is a matter of English, not Borland, not Datasnap.
Anders Melander
>It contains no statement that a DataSnap license is never required when
>not using Borland's midas.dll.
No, not in itself, but if you combine the two documents:
1) license.txt does not explicitly mention midas.dll, but instead refers to it as the "ClientDataset Redistributables". deploy.txt explains what the "ClientDataset Redistributables" are, namely MIDAS.DLL and STDVCL40.DLL.
2) license.txt states "Note that purchase of a DataSnap Deployment License is not required for deploying an application which does not use ClientDataset Redistributables for supporting such data sharing among computers."
Ergo: "Note that purchase of a DataSnap Deployment License is not required for deploying an application which does not use MIDAS.DLL or STDVCL40.DLL for supporting such data sharing among computers."
Anyhow, I think it has now been established elsewhere in this thread that the intended meaning of the license is not what it says in the docs, so let's just leave it at that.
John Kaster (Borland)
> What I need to stream back it's obviously delta information (in whichever
> form)
Then it hasn't been resolved. For example, "MergeChangeLog" would resolve the
data locally. After the changes have been merged, you can send the dataset back.
marc hoffman
> Of course, the absolute best thing to do would be to contact Borland and
ask
> them. If that doesn't suffice, contact a lawyer who knows the intricacies
of
> such things.
People have. paraphrased "i wanna build a mybase standalone app. the license
sais i cannor move .cds files (or datapackets) between machines. will i be
allowed to write .cds files with my application on one machine, swap disks
and load then into my application on a other machine?" answer "this requires
a datansap license, as the data packet crosses machine boundaries".
i'm not trying to be picky here. i'm not trying to cheat and save nmoney
(matter of fact, i dont care, as i own both payed-for datasnap licenses for
our webservers hosting production datasnap codes, as well as a copy of
Delphi 7 Architect which makes the prior obsolete). but we get asked these
questions by our (RO) customers on a daily basis, as many of them are using
not using Delphi 7 Enterprise+. These details do matter to them, and it's
unfortunate that these details seem to not be clear defined.
either way, the second part of your previous message basically negates the
above assumptoon about non-multi-tier applications. if John can confrm this,
this will indeed be good news for many Delphi 6/7 Professional users.
Alessandro Federici
> > What I need to stream back it's obviously delta information (in
whichever
> > form)
>
> Then it hasn't been resolved. For example, "MergeChangeLog" would resolve
the
> data locally. After the changes have been merged, you can send the dataset
back.
Exactly!
So it does NOT matter if you use CDS redists on the other side.
Alessandro Federici
> and STDVCL40.DLL.
??????????
I don't see that line in my D7 txt
Craig Stuntz [TeamB]
> ??????????
> I don't see that line in my D7 txt
We're talking about the D6 license here.
Alessandro Federici
news:3e5d3013$1...@newsgroups.borland.com...
> > ??????????
> > I don't see that line in my D7 txt
>
> We're talking about the D6 license here.
Oh sorry. I also thought that was another thing (the VCL package that
contains TLists, TButtons, etc).
Ignore me.
Craig Stuntz [TeamB]
> Craig Stuntz [TeamB] wrote:
>
> >It contains no statement that a DataSnap license is never required
> >when not using Borland's midas.dll.
>
> No, not in itself, but if you combine the two documents:
Even with this combination, you're still omitting the other file.
The reason I'm stressing this so much is that I still see mention of
HyperBase from time to time, and it needs to be made clear that no
matter how you combine the documents or spin the text, what the author
told people to do is not allowed, and that he continued to say things
to the contrary after he had been told that this was the case. Borland
"squashed" this because the author was lying to Borland customers.
Bob Swart
> If you don't transport the delta information back to Machine A for updating
> the master database, you don't need a licnese. If you pass the delta
> information back to Machine A from Machine B and then use that delta to update
> the master data, you need a DataSnap license, or in the case of Delphi 7,
> Enterprise or Architect.
>
> IOW, using the automatic change tracking capabilities of CDSs across machine
> boundaries is the crucial piece.
That's a very clear example, thanks!
The only unfortunately misunderstanding by me was that I didn't know
(until recently) that Delphi 7 Professional users can only obtain a
DataSnap license by purchasing a copy of Delphi 7 Enterprise or
Architect...
Groetjes,
Bob Swart (aka Dr.Bob - www.DrBob42.com)
--
Bob Swart Training & Consultancy (eBob42.com) - Delphi & Web Services
webmaster UK Borland User Group (BUG) & Borland UK Connections member