Monomachos
Omega
"Monomachos", related to the one discussed, but perhaps with some peaces
missing.
Marina Monomachos (died 1147) married Leo Diogenis (Leo was assassinated
1116).
Allegedly, Marina Monomachos was the daughter of Vladimir Monomachos, and
Gytha (or Gyntha) of England.
Vladimir appears to be the very same Vladimir discussed earlier, his surname
was not Monomachos, therefore the Marina's surname couldn't be Monomachos.
Is there another Vladimir with the surname Monomachos??
By the way:
Monomachos is a person who fights his own battles (a person who does not
seek outside help to fight a war). It is a nick name for e VERY COURAGEOUS
person.
Monos means Alone; It definitely does not mean "ONE".
Machos (from machi (i = eta)) means battle.
The translation "One Battle" or "One Fight" is wrong.
Dr. George Tsambourakis
Omega Thoroughbreds
Tooborac, Victoria, Australia
e-Mail: om...@thoroughbreds.com.au
Web-Site: http://www.thoroughbreds.com.au
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Now that a few people are involved in this, I am presenting you another
> "Monomachos", related to the one discussed, but perhaps with some peaces
> missing.
>
> Marina Monomachos (died 1147) married Leo Diogenis (Leo was assassinated
> 1116).
>
> Allegedly, Marina Monomachos was the daughter of Vladimir Monomachos, and
> Gytha (or Gyntha) of England.
Gytha would be the appropriate form, although this is likely a
shortenning of the original Eadgyth, AElfgyth, or AEthelgyth.
> Vladimir appears to be the very same Vladimir discussed earlier, his surname
> was not Monomachos, therefore the Marina's surname couldn't be Monomachos.
>
> Is there another Vladimir with the surname Monomachos??
While Vladimir was not surnamed Monomachos, he was certainly
aware of the kinship. As such, it would not surprise me that a
daughter marrying back into the Greek culture would use it as a
surname, so I see no reason to hypothesize some other Vladimir
Monomachos.
taf
Omega
right to choose which surname they are going to adopt. So, theoretically,
she could choose her fathers or mothers surname.
However, there is another Monomachos.
George Monomachos, born 1020. Duke of Illyricum.
Allegedly, he may have been her son. However, her husband Leo died four
years before George was conceived and to my knowledge she did not re-marry.
and there are a few more that I am trying to sort out.
Renia
> Yes, it makes sense. Not many people know that Greek women had and have the
> right to choose which surname they are going to adopt. So, theoretically,
> she could choose her fathers or mothers surname.
The same actually applies in England, but I think few people know that. However,
the convention is to take the husband's name.
Renia
Omega
There was an article here in Australia in a leading news paper a few years
ago regarding women rights in different countries around the world.
To my surprise, Greece was the leading country in women rights, well ahead
of the rest.
Of course, rights often take second place to tradition.
Off course traditionally, women adopt their husband's name;
however, in Greece, by law women can kept their own, and could even
"challenge" their husband to use it/adopt it.
Dr. George Tsambourakis
Omega Thoroughbreds
Tooborac, Victoria, Australia
e-Mail: om...@thoroughbreds.com.au
Web-Site: http://www.thoroughbreds.com.au
"Renia" <PSim...@cwcom.net> wrote in message
news:3A7BE57F...@cwcom.net...
Andrew S. Kalinkin
>
> Now that a few people are involved in this, I am presenting you another
> "Monomachos", related to the one discussed, but perhaps with some peaces
> missing.
>
> Marina Monomachos (died 1147) married Leo Diogenis (Leo was assassinated
> 1116).
>
> Allegedly, Marina Monomachos was the daughter of Vladimir Monomachos, and
> Gytha (or Gyntha) of England.
>
> Vladimir appears to be the very same Vladimir discussed earlier, his surname
> was not Monomachos, therefore the Marina's surname couldn't be Monomachos.
Yes, Vladimir Monomakh had a daughter Maria, who was married to Leo Diogenis,
who claimed to be a son of emperor Roman IV.
It is not very likely, though, that her mother was Gytha. Although there is
no definitive proof, it seems, for chronological reasons, that Vladimir's
three daughters were from his second marriage.
Andrew
Omega
Diogenis,
> who claimed to be a son of emperor Roman IV.
NO argument about that. Maria was his daughter from his first wife
(Gytha), the other two were from his second. And she did marry Leo Diogenis
(who died the 15th of August 1116, assassinated), and who was the emperor's
son.
The problems are: a) The name is Marina and not Maria; b) she allegedly had
a son called George Monomachos (b.1120). Why Monomachos??
Was George, perhaps, her brother (half brother)???? or perhaps a "bastard"?
Why was he in Dalmatia? How did George become a Duke in Dalmatia?
I have noticed that the German's rightly or wrongly also call Vladimir
"Monomachos" so he may have been "named" Monomachos by Modern (and not so
Modern) Historians.
Omega
There are TWO Leo Diogenis
The husband of Maria, is Leo the son of the Emperor.
The husband of Marina Monomachos, LEO DIOGENIS is the son of Konstantinos
Diogenis and Theodora Kamninos.
Both died 1116.
I am sorry , I just didn't look the correct page.
--
Dr. George Tsambourakis
Omega Thoroughbreds
Tooborac, Victoria, Australia
e-Mail: om...@thoroughbreds.com.au
Web-Site: http://www.thoroughbreds.com.au
"Omega" <om...@thoroughbreds.com.au> wrote in message
news:7E3f6.11$5e6....@vic.nntp.telstra.net...
Omega
good library.
The DIOGENIS family.
Diogenis (He did not have a surname),
He had at least two sons.
Romanos IV, Diogenis (his fathers first name was used as his surname).
Romanos married at least once.
His last wife was the Empress Eudokia Makrembolitis (or Makrembolitisa if
you prefer), widow of Constantine X and had with her at least two sons
Nikiphoros and Leo. He also had a son named Konstantinos and a daughter
(name unknown to me).
We know he had a daughter, because one of the conditions set for his release
by the Seljuk Sultan Alp Arslan, was that Romanos's daughter marry Arslan's
Son.
Romanos married Eudokia in Dec 1067, and become Emperor the 1st of January
1068. Taking into account that Eudokia and Romanos were separated after two
years, and we know he had the two sons with her, the son and daughter must
have been from an previous marriage. The daughter must have been old enough
to be considered as "wife" prospect.
His son LEO (assassinated 15 Aug 1116) married Maria, the daughter of
Vladimir.
His son Konstantinos, married Theodora Komninos, the daughter of John I
Komninos and Anna Dalassinos (or Dalassina if you prefer).
The had at least one son and one daughter.
LEO Diogenis (born about 1085) married MARINA MONOMACHOS (unknown).
ANNA Diogenis married UROSH NEMANJA.
Off course George Monomachos, Duke of Illiricum is still not accounted for.
Any corrections or additional information would be appreciated.
Stewart, Peter
hereditary surnames become popular early in the Medieval period was for
women to bear a feminine form of the chosen name - this was more a personal
and social attribute than a legal identifier. Usage in the Greek world today
is of course different.
Historians and genealogists nowadays usually follow the convention of
transliterating names as closely as possible to their originals, for
instance giving Makrembolites and its feminine form Makrembolitissa,
Komnenos and feminine Komnene, Dalassenos and Dalassene, Diogenes and
Diogenissa etc - all of these are given unfamiliar transliterations in your
posting below.
If you wish to adopt a different convention on SMG, which is of course your
prerogative, it might be worthwhile to post a general explanation of this.
Peter Stewart
> ______________________________
>
Omega
> transliterating names as closely as possible to their originals, for
> instance giving Makrembolites and its feminine form Makrembolitissa,
> Komnenos and feminine Komnene, Dalassenos and Dalassene, Diogenes and
> Diogenissa etc - all of these are given unfamiliar transliterations in
your
> posting below.
Your views are not wrong but at the same time are not correct.
The name change occurs only if a third party discusses the individual
involved. Only than
Makrembolitis (Macro-Embolitis) becomes Makrembolitissa
Doukas becomes Doukaina
Komninos becomes Komninou
Dalassinos becomes Dalassinou
Diogenis becomes Diogenous
This applies to first names too.
For example: The wife of George becomes Georgaina
Today nobody dares to call names incorrectly.
Nobody calls Ms Onasis "Onassina".
As a surname, for the family records, nothing changes. Legally, the only
change that "MAY" take place is the removal of the ending "S" in all names
that end in "is" (i = eta).
It's not the Greeks that cause these problems but historians (mainly
French), who couldn't possibly be or say something wrong.
Unfortunately, Greeks must take part of the blame, for not forcefully
correcting all these misunderstandings. However, we can be excused being
slaves for some 400 years with our only friends being the Russians..
Dr. George Tsambourakis
Omega Thoroughbreds
Tooborac, Victoria, Australia
e-Mail: om...@thoroughbreds.com.au
Web-Site: http://www.thoroughbreds.com.au
"Stewart, Peter" <Peter....@crsrehab.gov.au> wrote in message
news:BE9CF8DEAB7ED311B05E...@v003138e.crsrehab.gov.au...
> We seem to be at cross-purposes over Byzantine Greek names. The custom
when
> hereditary surnames become popular early in the Medieval period was for
> women to bear a feminine form of the chosen name - this was more a
personal
> and social attribute than a legal identifier. Usage in the Greek world
today
> is of course different.
>
>
Stewart, Peter
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Omega [mailto:om...@thoroughbreds.com.au]
> Sent: Monday, 5 February 2001 18:53
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Monomachos
>
>
> > Historians and genealogists nowadays usually follow the
> > convention of transliterating names as closely as possible
> > to their originals, for instance giving Makrembolites and
> > its feminine form Makrembolitissa, Komnenos and feminine
> > Komnene, Dalassenos and Dalassene, Diogenes and
> > Diogenissa etc - all of these are given unfamiliar
> > transliterations in your posting below.
>
>
> Your views are not wrong but at the same time are not correct.
> The name change occurs only if a third party discusses the individual
> involved. Only than Makrembolitis (Macro-Embolitis) becomes
> Makrembolitissa
> Doukas becomes Doukaina
> Komninos becomes Komninou
> Dalassinos becomes Dalassinou
> Diogenis becomes Diogenous
I am a third party discussing these individuals. As I have never had the
pleasure of addressing a member of the Komnenos ffamily, I've never had
occasion to use the form "Komnenou", which is not a feminine form nor the
equivalent of "Doukaina" etc.
>
> This applies to first names too.
> For example: The wife of George becomes Georgaina
>
> Today nobody dares to call names incorrectly.
> Nobody calls Ms Onasis "Onassina".
As I said, usage in the Greek world today is different from that in the
Medieval period, in large part for the reasons to which I briefly alluded.
However, we are not speaking of third parties living in the Greek world of
today.
> As a surname, for the family records, nothing changes.
> Legally, the only change that "MAY" take place is the
> removal of the ending "S" in all names
> that end in "is" (i = eta).
But why does i = eta? For the sake of consistent understanding, can you
please consider posting a general explanation of your principles in
transliterating Medieval names?
> It's not the Greeks that cause these problems but historians (mainly
> French), who couldn't possibly be or say something wrong.
French historians are less likely than Germans or those in the
English-speaking world to adopt the conventions I described. For instance,
it is still quite usual for them to write of Monomachos as Monomaque, and so
on.
> Unfortunately, Greeks must take part of the blame, for not forcefully
> correcting all these misunderstandings. However, we can be
> excused being slaves for some 400 years with our only friends being
> the Russians..
People other than Greeks and Russians have contributed very greatly to the
understanding of Byzantine history and genealogy, which is what we are
discussing. Demotic speakers in the past 400 years were not necessarily
these scholars' best sources of information, although as you suggest they
are happily reclaiming their culture's glorious past today.
Peter Stewart
Omega
> > correcting all these misunderstandings. However, we can be
> > excused being slaves for some 400 years with our only friends being
> > the Russians..
>
> People other than Greeks and Russians have contributed very greatly to the
> understanding of Byzantine history and genealogy, which is what we are
> discussing. Demotic speakers in the past 400 years were not necessarily
> these scholars' best sources of information, although as you suggest they
> are happily reclaiming their culture's glorious past today.
You miss interpret my comments. I am saying that Greeks did not contribute
much to the understanding of the Byzantine History, because they were not
free to do so.
When I said, the Russians were our only friends, that's exactly what I
meant, I did not mean that the Russians contributed more to the
understanding of the Byzantine history than the French did.
However, it is a fact that French "ambassadors" were travelling in Greece,
visiting our Byzantine monasteries under falls pretences, requesting to see
the Libraries, etc, pilfering books and icons. Some "Germans" did that too.
British did take lots of antics from Greece mainly the last two centuries.
> I am a third party discussing these individuals. As I have never had the
> pleasure of addressing a member of the Komnenos family, I've never had
> occasion to use the form "Komnenou", which is not a feminine form nor the
> equivalent of "Doukaina" etc.
The surname of the a person is the name he/she is introduced to you.
If you were a guest of Mr Doukas and some one was introducing you to the two
individuals, he would have said: "May I introduce you to Mr Doukas, amd Mrs
Doukas. That's the correct name.
If you were outside, talking to one of your friends, and Mrs Doukas was
doing her shopping on the other site of the road, and YOU DID NOT LIKE MRS
DOUKAS VERY MUCH, than you will say: "There is Doukaina". In other words,
the comment may be easily interpreted as a sexist remark. It means that
she has NO personality.
It's almost as you are saying "There is Doukas's dog". That's the reason
it is not being used.
Regarding Komninos, it is: O Komninos; H Komninos or H Komninou; TO
Komninon.
> But why does i = eta? For the sake of consistent understanding, can you
> please consider posting a general explanation of your principles in
> transliterating Medieval names?
The Greek language has 6 i. The term i is used as starting point for
all six.
The i Yiota (I)
The i Hta (H) Because Hta does not exist as i in other languages, and
for phonetic reasons, the Greek Hta is being written as "e". Many Greeks
accept that.
The i Ypsilon (Y)
The i Omikron-Yiota (OI)
The i Epsilon-Yiota (EI)
and The i Ypsilon-Yiota (YI)
Each of those i, is deliberately changed by each country to suit it's own
purposes.
However, the one's that Kill our language are the French and British. The
Germans, Scandinavians, Italians, etc are more accommodating.
Stewart, Peter
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Omega [mailto:om...@thoroughbreds.com.au]
> Sent: Tuesday, 6 February 2001 10:26
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Monomachos
>
>
> > > Unfortunately, Greeks must take part of the blame, for
> > > not forcefully correcting all these misunderstandings.
> > > However, we can be excused being slaves for some 400
> > > years with our only friends being the Russians..
> >
> > People other than Greeks and Russians have contributed very
> > greatly to the understanding of Byzantine history and genealogy,
> > which is what we are discussing. Demotic speakers in the past
> > 400 years were not necessarily these scholars' best sources of
> > information, although as you suggest they are happily reclaiming
> > their culture's glorious past today.
>
> You miss interpret my comments. I am saying that Greeks did
> not contribute much to the understanding of the Byzantine History,
> because they were not free to do so.
> When I said, the Russians were our only friends, that's exactly what I
> meant, I did not mean that the Russians contributed more to the
> understanding of the Byzantine history than the French did.
Just as well Lord Byron doesn't subscribe to SMG beyond the grave -- I
expect he would have found this opinion of yours rather questionable.
I didn't mean to interpret your comments so much as to make my own, to the
effect that the modern Greek people have not been & still may not be the
world's greatest experts on their own past culture.
> However, it is a fact that French "ambassadors" were travelling in
> Greece, visiting our Byzantine monasteries under falls pretences,
> requesting to see the Libraries, etc, pilfering books and icons. Some
> "Germans" did that too.
> British did take lots of antics from Greece mainly the last
> two centuries.
>
> > I am a third party discussing these individuals. As I have never
> > had the pleasure of addressing a member of the Komnenos family,
> > I've never had occasion to use the form "Komnenou", which is not
> > a feminine form nor the equivalent of "Doukaina" etc.
>
> The surname of the a person is the name he/she is introduced to you.
>
> If you were a guest of Mr Doukas and some one was introducing
> you to the two individuals, he would have said: "May I introduce you to
> Mr Doukas, amd Mrs Doukas. That's the correct name.
>
> If you were outside, talking to one of your friends, and Mrs
> Doukas was doing her shopping on the other site of the road, and
> YOU DID NOT LIKE MRS DOUKAS VERY MUCH, than you
> will say: "There is Doukaina". In other words, the comment may be
> easily interpreted as a sexist remark.
> It means that she has NO personality.
> It's almost as you are saying "There is Doukas's dog".
> That's the reason it is not being used.
I thought it was clear as could be in my earlier postings that in my opinion
Medieval usage was different from today's naming etiquette -- and in the
Medieval period a "Mrs Doukaina" simply didn't exist. Any woman bearing that
surname was probably a "doukablast" (if that is a word which can be used in
English) & was at least descended from a Doukas at some remove rather than
just married to one.
From what I know of those Doukai who are my ancestors, there were a few that
I might have crossed the road to avoid while shopping. But they did have
personalities.
Peter Stewart
Omega
> effect that the modern Greek people have not been & still may not be the
> world's greatest experts on their own past culture.
This is one of your comment that we agree 100%.
The Medieval times, were considered as "years of shame" for Greeks.
We only learned (in schools) selected parts of the Byzantine History, in
fact we learned more Byzantine History in Theology lessons than in History
lessons.
There is a "black hole" in the Greek History books from about 1453 to 1800.
Only the last 30 years, historians started to ask questions and some
progress has been made.
It should be mentioned that Venetians took all document (many thank God for
this) when they left Greece, and it's only the last 10 years or so that
these documents were copied (scanned) and are now available for study
Dr. George Tsambourakis
Omega Thoroughbreds
Tooborac, Victoria, Australia
e-Mail: om...@thoroughbreds.com.au
Web-Site: http://www.thoroughbreds.com.au
"Stewart, Peter" <Peter....@crsrehab.gov.au> wrote in message
news:BE9CF8DEAB7ED311B05E...@v003138e.crsrehab.gov.au...
Settipani
use the international convention in writing byzantine name. Even greek
byzantinist does like this. So it is necessary to avoid forms like Komninos,
Monomachos for a woman and so on.
For the rest, there are several things to add for Diogenes’ genealogy.
The name Diogenes is not frequent and so, is it possible that a number of its
bearers were linked. Perhaps from the sixth century when noble people of this
name make their appearence in the sources. More plausibly, since the 8th century
with a tourmarch Diogenes. From this line come Diogenes Adralestos. He was a
nephew and a captain of Bardas Phocas (+ 989), so presumably, the son of an
Adralestos (son of a Diogenissa) or, more probably, of a Diogenes (son of an
Adralestina) and of a Phocaina, daughter of Leon the Curopalat (whose maternal
grandmother was already an Anastasia Adralestina). Diogenes Adralestos was
probably the father of Constantine Diogenes, patrikios, duke of Thessalonike in
1017. After a second plot against the Emperor, he was emprisoned in 1031 and
comitted suicide for escape the torture. He had married an Argyropoulina, niece
of Romanos III Argyros (probably daughter of Basil Argyros). Their were the
parents of Romanos IV Diogenes. The first wife of Romanos IV was an Alousiana,
sister of Samuel Alousianos, and he had by her a son, Constantine, married in
1068 to Theodora Comnena.
For the Monomachoi, their first member is Gregorios, a noble of Paphlagonia,
born c. 740. Himself, or his wife Anna, is a relative of empress Theodora.
Several Monomachoi were known from this time to Theodosios, but not a firm
genealogy. Theodosios was almost certainly married to a Tornikia, since his son
Constantine is the close relative of several Tornikioi. Constantine IX had a
wife (name unknown) and a mistress (Maria), both Skleraina, and his putative
daughter is obviously issued from one of them. The wife is the daughter of Basil
Skleros and of Pulcheria Argyropoulina, and the mistress is the sister of
Romanos Skleros and the paternal niece of Basil. It was the common grandfather
of these two women, the famous Romanos Skleros, who has married a sister of Abou
Taglib, emir of Alep. Romanos’ grandmother, Gregoria, was the
great-granddaughter of Bardas, brother of emperor Basil I, who claimed a descent
from Alexander the Great. But the descent is fictional of course.
You could find all relevant references in J.-F. Vannier, Les Argyroi, Paris,
1974 and J.-Cl. Cheynet, Pouvoir et Contestation à Byzance, Paris, 1990.
Last, Constantine’s relative who married Vsevolod (I think there is a good
chance she was a daughter, but she can be a niece or a first cousin) is not
known by name. There are some chances that her name was Anna (nor Maria or
Irene, and certainly not Maria Irene).
CS
Settipani
forbids Dr. Tsambourakis to choose the mode of transcription which he wishes.
Moreover, his system is perhaps more correct that anyone else. It is just
necessary to consider henceforth that there is two way of transcribing the
Byzantine names: his own and the one that is adopted by the rest of the world.
No problem for me.
PS : The three daughters of Constantine VII who are nuns are named Theophano,
Zoe and Anna.
CS
Omega
which
> you are replying -- I assume your comments above were addressed to
Christian
> Settipani.
I am sorry about this, I though that the a reply to a message will appear as
a "threat" to that message. Obviously I am wrong if my messages confuse
users.
> Equally, Byzantine Greeks had a perfect right to chose naming conventions
> different from those followed today, and equally deserving of respect. As
M
> Settipani wrote, "it is necessary to avoid forms like Komninos, Monomachos
> for a woman and so on" -- perhaps not quite necessary, if you have a
strong
> feeling against it, but generally to be preferred on an international
> newsgroup.
Could you explain WHEN the Byzantine Greeks had the perfect right to
choose????
Also, could you explain the following?
If the Scandinavians talk about HARALD ANDERSSON, then it is clear that they
talk about Harald, the son of Andersson.
If the Russians talk about IGOR IVANISOVICH than it clear they talk about
Igor the son of Ivan.
How come than that when you talk about DOUKAINA (that's how it is spelled
correctly) which means "The wife of Doukas" you actually mean "The daughter
of Doukas"????
If Mr Doukas marries Joanne Black, than Mrs Joanne Black, is called by a
third party DOUKAINA, simply because she now belongs to Mr Doukas. His
daughters and sons are Doukas by birth. Mrs Doukaina herself will never
introduced or be introduced as Doukaina, but as Mrs Doukas.
Dr. George Tsambourakis
Omega Thoroughbreds
Tooborac, Victoria, Australia
e-Mail: om...@thoroughbreds.com.au
Web-Site: http://www.thoroughbreds.com.au
"Stewart, Peter" <Peter....@crsrehab.gov.au> wrote in message
news:BE9CF8DEAB7ED311B05E...@v003138e.crsrehab.gov.au...
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Omega [mailto:om...@thoroughbreds.com.au]
> > Sent: Wednesday, 7 February 2001 7:02
> > To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> > Subject: Re: Monomachos
> >
> >
> > As far as the Monomachos family is concern, I have no reason
> > to dissagree.
> > His surname was Monomachos, his nickname was "Evergetis".
> > As far as the exotic names are concern, you can use the International
> > convention (the names forced upon the Greeks by the French)
> > and I use the correct Greek names.
>
> He certainly can and does use "the International convention", but in what
> sense does this force any particular names upon the Greeks? The only
> alphabet in which you can "use the correct Greek names" is the Greek, and
it
> is surely proper for the users of other alphabets to determine the system
of
> transliteration into theirs.
>
>
> Peter Stewart
>
Omega
Is it known why the five daughters finished up nuns?
Were forced to do so?
I couldn't find any one being married or divorced or having children.
Dr. George Tsambourakis
Omega Thoroughbreds
Tooborac, Victoria, Australia
e-Mail: om...@thoroughbreds.com.au
Web-Site: http://www.thoroughbreds.com.au
"Settipani" <ina...@club-internet.fr> wrote in message
news:3A81BBC2...@club-internet.fr...
Omega
can cause sometimes misunderstandings.
> How come than that when you talk about DOUKAINA
When I say "When YOU talk", I know in English is mainly used when directly
addressing one person. The equivalent word in Greek is plural, and it is
the plural from of YOU that I use, meaning all of you.
Dr. George Tsambourakis
Omega Thoroughbreds
Tooborac, Victoria, Australia
e-Mail: om...@thoroughbreds.com.au
Web-Site: http://www.thoroughbreds.com.au
"Omega" <om...@thoroughbreds.com.au> wrote in message
news:9Whg6.3$pG6....@vic.nntp.telstra.net...
Serban Marin
You said:
>
> The above statement is wrong, The Greeks are under the Patriarchate of
> Constantinople. Always have been.
>
I don't have the article signed by George Arnakis at hand, about "The Role
of Religion in the Development of Balkan Nationalism" (1974). There is a
chapter about the Eastern Orthodox Church, seens as the preserver of the
nationality. Everything it's OK: the Patriarch of Constantinople not only
remained the spiritual leader of the Orthodox community from the Ottoman
territories after 1453, but also the only possible hope for this community.
This position was not undermined during the centuries.
And in 1821 the Patriarch Gregorios V was hanged by the Turks, because of
the Greek uprising.
But: the image of the Patriarch did not become as a martyr. Why? Because the
Holy Orthodox Synod had anathematizes the "Philiki Etairia" on March 1821.
Yes, this revolutionary movement was imported from France (your favourite
key-word). But does it put the realities of the 19th century in shadow? Do
you intend to deny that movement that rejected the Patriarchal institution.
Actually, the Patriarchate of Athens was a reality! Yes, the Greeks have
always been under the Patriarchate of Constantinople, you say, but only when
this Patriarchate represented their exclusive hope (namely, in the period of
Ottoman rule). When a new hope appeared (that is, the revolutionary
anti-ecclesiastical movement), they created their own ecclesiastical
hierarchy, having Athens as center.
It is not be denied that, nowadays, there is not a unique Orthodox church.
Bartholomew I exists, I agree, and it is also called as "Oecumenical
Patriarch". But is he indeed oecumenical?
I think that the national orthodox churches is a reality. And the point is
that not only the Russians, Romanians, Bulgarians, Serbians have their own
patriarchates, but also the Greeks! And, beside this, the appearance of
those national patriarchates, is it also a French invention?
All the best,
Serban Marin,
Bucharest, Romania
sma...@dnt.ro
Omega
Religion in Greece is something difficult to explain and talking about
religion isn't easy.
Myself, I am not a religious person.
.The words "Oecumenical Patriarch" are dating back many centuries. I am not
100% sure, these words were firstly used to place the Patriarch of
Constantinople above the newly appointed Patriarch of Jerusalem.
I will give you a simple example: A Greek marriage that took place in a
Church controlled by the Patriarchate of Jerusalem in a territory that the
Patriarchate of Constantinople considers as it own (for example Australia),
it is not valid/recognised in Greece. These two patriarchates fight
against each other even today.
There are numerous other Patriarchs; Alexandria, Russia, etc. that co-exist
but to my knowledge the Patriarch of Constantinople is considered to be just
a little bit above them. Why? I don't know and I am not in the position to
speculate..
As far as a Patriarch in Athens, I never heard that before. I will ring the
Archbishops office in Sydney, and ask about it.
regards
Dr. George Tsambourakis
Omega Thoroughbreds
Tooborac, Victoria, Australia
e-Mail: om...@thoroughbreds.com.au
Web-Site: http://www.thoroughbreds.com.au
"Serban Marin" <sma...@dnt.ro> wrote in message
news:008301c09085$abfe6540$347de7c1@v0t8w0...
Stewart, Peter
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Omega [mailto:om...@thoroughbreds.com.au]
> Sent: Thursday, 8 February 2001 7:06
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Monomachos
>
>
> > It would be helpful if you could include at least some of
> > the post to which you are replying -- I assume your comments
> > above were addressed to Christian Settipani.
>
> I am sorry about this, I though that the a reply to a message
> will appear as a "threat" to that message. Obviously I am wrong
> if my messages confuse users.
Perhaps it depends on how individual subscribers receive postings from the
newsgroup -- mine come in digests & once I have deleted that last one all
the postings it contains are gone. It's then impossible to check the
sequence within any thread, unless I keep my Outlook folders clogged up with
past digests.
> > Equally, Byzantine Greeks had a perfect right to chose
> > naming conventions different from those followed today,
> > and equally deserving of respect. As M Settipani wrote, "it
> > is necessary to avoid forms like Komninos, Monomachos
> > for a woman and so on" -- perhaps not quite necessary, if
> > you have a strong feeling against it, but generally to be
> > preferred on an international newsgroup.
>
> Could you explain WHEN the Byzantine Greeks had the perfect right to
> choose????
When they were living & chosing the surnames they wished to be known by, of
course -- I can't see any point to this question.
> Also, could you explain the following?
>
> If the Scandinavians talk about HARALD ANDERSSON, then it is
> clear that they talk about Harald, the son of Andersson.
No, they are talking about Harald the son of Anders.
> If the Russians talk about IGOR IVANISOVICH than it clear
> they talk about Igor the son of Ivan. How come than that when
> you talk about DOUKAINA (that's how it is spelled
> correctly) which means "The wife of Doukas" you actually mean
> "The daughter of Doukas"????
Doukaina did not mean the "wife of Doukas" in the period of the I am talking
about -- rather, as I've said before, it was the feminine form of a surname
adopted by women for social & personal reasons after the fashion started
early in the Medieval era, to indicate their status as "doukoblastoi" or
relatives with some other blood connection which entitled them to share in
the glory of the Doukai.
>
> If Mr Doukas marries Joanne Black, than Mrs Joanne Black, is
> called by a third party DOUKAINA, simply because she now
> belongs to Mr Doukas. His daughters and sons are Doukas
> by birth. Mrs Doukaina herself will never introduced or be
> introduced as Doukaina, but as Mrs Doukas.
You are still insisting on a retrospective application of current practice.
Genealogists and historians generally prefer to use naming conventions
appropriate to the period of the individuals concerned: in the period I am
speaking of, the daughter of a Doukas was a Doukaina by birth or choice --
she may have preferred to be known (although men did this much more
frequently) by a compound surname or by another surname altogether if she
was descended, say, from an even grander family. The name "Doukaina" did not
indicate that she belonged to any particular Doukas by marriage, but to the
family itself by birth. Therefore, if an Andronikos Komnenos married a Maria
Doukaina, for example, genealogists will not refer to her after that point
as Komnene but always as Doukaina. What her counterpart might be called in
the polite usage of Athens today is neither here nor there.
Peter Stewart
Omega
> > > naming conventions different from those followed today,
> > > and equally deserving of respect. As M Settipani wrote, "it
> > > is necessary to avoid forms like Komninos, Monomachos
> > > for a woman and so on" -- perhaps not quite necessary, if
> > > you have a strong feeling against it, but generally to be
> > > preferred on an international newsgroup.
> >
> > Could you explain WHEN the Byzantine Greeks had the perfect right to
> > choose????
of
> course -- I can't see any point to this question.
You claim that the Greeks had the perfect right to choose, and I asked you
When did they have the opportunity?? All these names date back many
centuries.
The Greeks always to my knowledge used the names correctly.
> > If the Scandinavians talk about HARALD ANDERSSON, then it is
> > clear that they talk about Harald, the son of Andersson.
>
> No, they are talking about Harald the son of Anders.
I know, I was checking to see if people read the whole message or just part
of it.
It appears you are the only one who did read it. Time to stop the thread.
> Doukaina did not mean the "wife of Doukas" in the period of the I am
talking
> about -- rather, as I've said before, it was the feminine form of a
surname
> adopted by women for social & personal reasons after the fashion started
> early in the Medieval era, to indicate their status as "doukoblastoi" or
> relatives with some other blood connection which entitled them to share in
> the glory of the Doukai.
Doukaina means the wife of Doukas, how others interpret it is a different
story.
Also DOUKAI does not mean anything, the closest to the Greek is DOUKOI
which has been used from time time.
However, because Doukas ands in "as" the plural Doukoi is not correct.
The plural of Doukas is Doukides (e sound ai)
Komninos (ending in "os") becomes Komninoi
Palaiologos --> Palaiologoi
Monomachos ---> Monomachoi
> You are still insisting on a retrospective application of current
practice.
No, I am realist, I don't believe that changes are possible. It will cost
millions of dollars
ten of thousands of books will have to be rewritten etc.
I just would like to see a better understanding of the Greek names and
language.
We must learn from our mistakes for a better future.
Omega
talking
> about -- rather, as I've said before, it was the feminine form of a
surname
> adopted by women for social & personal reasons after the fashion started
> early in the Medieval era, to indicate their status as "doukoblastoi" or
> relatives with some other blood connection which entitled them to share in
> the glory of the Doukai.
"doukoblastoi"
This is something I never expected. I am Blastos (plural Blastoi).
I know I am related to the Komninos and Notaras, but I never expected a
Doukas relationship.
I would appreciate it very much if you could give me a reference.
Stewart, Peter
> From: Omega [mailto:om...@thoroughbreds.com.au]
> Sent: Friday, 9 February 2001 7:07
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: Monomachos
>
>
> > talking about -- rather, as I've said before, it was the feminine form
of a
> > surname adopted by women for social & personal reasons after the
> > fashion started early in the Medieval era, to indicate their status as
> > "doukoblastoi" or relatives with some other blood connection which
> > entitled them to share in the glory of the Doukai.
>
> "doukoblastoi"
>
> This is something I never expected. I am Blastos (plural Blastoi).
> I know I am related to the Komninos and Notaras, but I never
> expected a Doukas relationship.
> I would appreciate it very much if you could give me a reference.
Please note that "doukoblastoi" was spelled without a capital letter -- this
means "buds of the Doukas [stem]", not a variant name.
Several people in the twelfth century and later were described as
"doukoblastos", which is in some cases out only evidence for their ancestry.
See the work by Demetrios Polemis cited in my last posting.
Peter Stewart
Omega
Firstly, I do not speak NEW Greek, but old Greek.
Secondly, all names ending in AS, have a different plural. It all depends
in which part of the word is the tone.
according to your way of thinking.
Phokas is Phokai
Notaras is Notarai
Pappas (meaning Priest) is Pappai
and Doukas of course as you already argue is Doukai.
The fact however is that the plural forms of
Phokas ----> Phokades; Notaras ---> Notarades; Pappas ---> Pappades
but Doukas because the tone is not in the end of the word is Doukides;
the same way as Satrapes (Satrap) is Satrapides;
Off course, the next question is does Mr Polemis Speak Greek????
It is not a forgone conclusions that all Greeks do.
> to indicate their status as "doukoblastoi" or
> relatives with some other blood connection which entitled them to share in
> the glory of the Doukai.
You answer (in your other reply), contradicts you statement above in which
you say relatives with SOME OTHER BLOOD. But again, that's life, some are
always right.
> Please note that "doukoblastoi" was spelled without a capital letter --
this
> means "buds of the Doukas [stem]", not a variant name.
Blastos (you call "buds") is a religious name, meaning the "beginning of a
new growth".
and it does not matter how you interpret it, there is a 50:50 chance that it
refers to a Doukas -Blastos marriage. However, one word itself means
nothing.
Dr. George Tsambourakis
Omega Thoroughbreds
Tooborac, Victoria, Australia
e-Mail: om...@thoroughbreds.com.au
Web-Site: http://www.thoroughbreds.com.au
> >
>