Blackmore's obtuse Postings
Mike Curtis
Subject: Re: Irma Grese: By Special Request
From: tut...@aol.com (Tutu101)
I see he prefers the tutu101 address for this round.
Date: 1996/12/25
Message-Id: <19961225122...@ladder01.news.aol.com>
References: <32c4f60a...@news.inetport.com>
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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Mike Curtis wrote:
>>Fact is that the doctors controled the selections and possibly made
>>the final decisions. Maybe. Some doctors were more comfortable than
>>others with the selection process which suggests that Blackmore read
>>Lifton's book. Others testified that she would actually take part in
>>the selections so it comes down to who the judges believed. Since they
>>do not explain it, one can't tell. Then there are the beatings that
>>possibly killed people. the throwing people into harms way and other
>>such charges against Grese.
Blackmore replies:
>It was never charged that she beat anyone to death, was it?
> And of so, whom? Where is a name?--rb
Mike Curtis responds:
_The Belsen Trial_ page 251 where Grese is under examination by her
defense council:
The witness, Szafran, has accused you of beating a girl at Belsen with
a riding crop about a fortnight before the British troops arrived, and
also that at Auschwitz during a selection two girls jumped out of the
window and you shot them while they were lying on the ground. Is that
true? --I never shot at all at any prisoner.
[note the answer that Grese carefully gives]
[We find the D. Szafran testimony on page 85 where she is questioned
by the prosecution:]
Whilst you were at Auschwitz did you see any other persons beaten
besides yourself? -- I saw it very often when I was working in
Kommando 103 and we were carrying loads of earth and coal. I have seen
Kramer beat a person so often that I cannot really say how many times.
I have see Grese do it in Auschwitz, and about a fortnight before the
British troops liberated Belsen I saw her beat a girl in the camp. She
had a pistol, but she was using a riding-crop. The beatings were very
severe. If they were not the cause of death they were not called
severe in the camp.
[Then we go to Grese's council crosss-examining D. Szafran on page
87:]
Do you remember telling us that you had seen Grese, No. 9, beating a
girl in Belsen about a fortnight before the British troops arrived? --
I remember it now, it was in the kitchen. Grese was not the kitchen
Kommandant, she came there with the Lager Kommandant on inspection.
She beat the girl with a riding whip made of leather.
If I tell you that at Auschwitz Grese carried a stick and sometimes a
whip, but that at Belsen she never carried either, are you sure that
you are not confused over this incident? -- In Auschwitz she wore a
pistol and in Belsen she went about with a riding whip. She was one of
the few S.S. women who had a permit to carry arms. I cannot say
whether she was wearing a pistol at the time of this incident. Perhaps
it is possible that by that time members were not allowed to carry
arms.
[Then on re-cross of this witness by the prosecution on page 90:]
You said that you could tell us of a good many more instances of
Grese's conduct? -- Yes. In Camp A, Block 9, Blockälteste Ria and
Hoessler and Dr. Enna, the prison doctor, made a selection for the gas
chamber, and two selected girls jumped out of the window and Grese
approached them as they were lying on the ground and shot them twice.
She was always active in the camp gate making inspections and if any
of the prisoners wore another sock or shoe or anything like that, he
or she would be beaten up. I cannot remember with what she used to
beat them because I had to stand at attention.
You have been asked a good many questions about dates. Were you given
calendars either at Auschwitz or Belsen? --No, but I remember very
well because they were so terrible and ghastly.
<end quote there was no further questioning of this witness>
[Let's go back for another at page 251 which happens to be the next
question put to Grese by her defense council:]
The witness Stein told us that at selection in the summer of 1944 some
prisoners tried to hide, but that you saw them, told somebody, and a
woman was shot. It was suggested that the woman was shot by an S.S.
man on guard. Had you any authority to issue orders to an S.S. guard?
-- No.
[Comment -- recall her testimony that she gave unauthorized orders.]
The same witness alleged there was an incident when a mother was
talking to her daughter over the wire between two compounds, that you
arrived on a bicycle and beat the mother so severely that she was
lying on the ground where you kicked her? -- I do not deny that I
beat her, but I did not beat her until she fell to the ground, and I
did not kick her either.
[Let's go back to Ilona Stein's evidence and her cross-examination by
Grese's council on page 99-100:]
With regard to the incident you described of a woman being shot when
trying to escape from a selection parade in Auschwitz, was she a
Hungarian? -- Yes.
You described an incident when Grese arrived on a bicycle and beat
another woman. did she beat her with her belt? -- I do not know
exactly what was in her hands, but I did see that she had something in
them. I do remember, however, that I have seen Grese taking off her
belt and beating prisoners with it.
Was the body taken away on a stretcher by hand or was it taken away by
something on wheels? -- when somebody died, which happened in very
many cases, he was simply put into a blanket and dragged away.
Have you ever been beaten by Grese yourself? -- No, not in the kitchen
where I was working, but once when I was out on a working party Grese
saw me talking to somebody through the barbed wire and she immediately
started beating me.
Did you see Grese beating a great many people a great many times at
both camps? -- I saw her more frequently doing this in Auschwitz than
in Belsen.
Was the reason you only had this one beating from her because you
behaved yourself well? -- I had not very great contact with her
because, working in the kitchen, we were rather separated.
<end quote>
Let's go to page 747 for I. Stein's Deposition:
2. Whilst I was at Birkenau an S.S. woman named Irma Grese was
resposible form many beatings, one murder and sending people to the
gas chamber. I identify No. 2 on photograph Z/4/2 as Irma Grese. What
I speak of I speak of to my own knowledge.
3. In July, 1944, I was working in the kitchen at Birkenau when I saw
a woman, whose daughter was in an ajoining camp, go to the dividing
wire in order to speak to her daughter. Grese, who was passing on a
bicycle, immediatelygot off, took off her leather belt and beat the
woman with it. She also beat her on the face and head with her fists,
and when the woman fell to the ground she trampled on her. The woman's
face became swollen and blue. A friend of the woman's daughter took
her away and the woman was in the hospital for three weeks suffering
from the effectrs of the beating. I saw everything myself that Grese
did to this victim.
4. Whilst at Birkenau I have seen Grese making selections with Dr.
Mengele of people to be sent to the gas chamber. On these parades
Grese herself chose the people to be killed in this way. In one
selection about August, 1944, there were between 2000 and 3000
selected. At this selection Grese and Mengele were responsible for
selecting those for the gas chamber. People chosen would sometimes
sneak away from the line and hide themselves under their beds. Grese
would go and find them, beat them until they collapsed and then drag
them back into line again. I have seen everything I describe. It was
general knowledge in this camp that persons selected in this way went
to the gas chamber.
5. Sometime in August or September 194, at one of these selection
parades, one Hungarian woman who had been selected tried to escape
from the line and join her daughter in another line which was for
those not chosen. Grese noticed this and ordered one of the S.S.
guards to shoot the woman, which he did. I did not hear the order, but
saw Grese speak to the guard and he shot at once. In the company of
some nurses from the hospital I took the dead body to the mortuary.
<end quote>
******************
Well, Blackmore should I go on with more of the witnesses?
Blackmore writes:
> Something is very wrong
>with this part of the testimony. And if the gas chambers were indeed
>based upon
>rumor, then she was not guilty anyway.
Mike Curtis surmises:
>Based on rumor? What happened to Blackmores claim that he excepted
>that women and children, etc., were gassed but it wasn't a policy of
>the Nazi Government?
Blackmore evades:
>Why do you twist statements all the time? I said I have some theories
>about what may have happened and why, but it is all speculation on my
>part. I do not believe that the German government gave orders to murder
>women and children.--rb
They did. If the government was legally elected then the government
did this. Hitler appointed his minion to their positions, did he not?
Mike Curtis writes:
> Hmmmm. Since Grese knew what S.B. was and she was
>very definate. Since she does say that EVERYONE in the camp knew about
>the gas chambers it appears that whether or not the officers discussed
>this fact among themselves is moot.
Blackmore admits he actually believes her:
> She already admitted that NO staff member
>ever told her their were gas chambers at Auschwitz.--rb
Mike Curtis writes:
>So she did. Why should they discuss that with which they may have been
>uncomfortable. Why call it "on the way back to camp," "gone away," or
>"up the smoke stack," or even "sonderbehandlung?"
Blackmore responds:
>This would be contrary to human nature. Everyone in the camp was tlaking
>about the rumored gas chambers, but, aside from some suriviors, no one
>ever seems to have actually seen them...Hmmmm.--rb
Hmmmm. Hoessler did. Kramer did. There are some other S.S. who did
also. Are you reading selectively or did you trap yourself again by
accepting material from someone else?
Mike Curtis
E-mail mcu...@inetport.com
Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/
Tutu101
In reply to Curtis's "ObtuseBlackmore" post: Michael, can you try to be
more concise and less verbose. If you want to argue withme,take it one
point at a time. Your long posts are simply too turgid, with too much
material crammed in there. As to your comments:
I don't believe your witness who claims she saw Grese beat someone to
death. I happen to know that gratuitous beatings of inmates at Auschwitz
were strictly prohibited. Your witness never names the alleged victim or
the alleged person who was with her. All forms of corporal punishment had
to be approved of in advance by authorities in Berlin. The very idea of
little Irma Grese beating people to death with her cellophane whip is a
joke. Grese was innocent. She never deserved to hang on the basis of
unproved witchcraft like hysterical denunciations. And all this fuss and
ado you raise about these issues is unconvincing and reminds me of a
Shakespearian line: "Thou doth protest too much."
Daniel Keren
tut...@aol.com (Tutu101) writes:
# The very idea of little Irma Grese beating people
# to death with her cellophane whip is a joke.
But she also beat them with a stick.
Why don't you take good advice when offered? I told you: I
HAVE THE BOOK. I can check on you.
"I usually used to beat them on the shoulders, but
there were times when, because of the numbers involved,
they were beaten on any part of the body that happened
to be easiest".
Irma Grese, on how she used to beat Auschwitz inmates
with a stick; p. 713, "The Belsen Trial". Oh, I know,
this page fell out of your copy, or some Joooooooo stole
it, right?
Now, picture poor little Irma smacking one of those living
skeletons on the head with a stick. You're saying she
couldn't kill someone that way?
# Grese was innocent.
You mean, from your point of view? Of course. After all, she
"only" killed Jews, right?
Read her testimony about SS-woman Buchalter who was punished,
and how commandant Hoess forced her (Grese) to beat Buchalter.
That's how your heroes educated their young men and women.
After being forced to beat another SS-woman, do you think she
would have had any problems with beating Jews, who, she was
told since she was a child, were "sub-human vermin"?
-Danny Keren.
Mike Curtis
tut...@aol.com (Tutu101) wrote:
>In reply to Curtis's "ObtuseBlackmore" post: Michael, can you try to be
>more concise and less verbose.
From reading the responses supplied by deniers and your handlers I
have found them to be illiterate and obtuse. So, I am making an effort
to make an explanation that a five year old would understand.
> If you want to argue withme,take it one
>point at a time. Your long posts are simply too turgid, with too much
>material crammed in there.
(Is Blackmore pouting?) Tough. Sorry you can't handle the task at
hand.
> As to your comments:
>
>I don't believe your witness who claims she saw Grese beat someone to
>death.
The judges did believe the presentation and the defense was unable to
restore their client by impeaching the witness. Your opinions do not
matter a twig in this discussion. We are already aware of your bias
and inclinations. What you use to back up your opinion is of much more
value here that an empty "because I say so" argument.
> I happen to know that gratuitous beatings of inmates at Auschwitz
>were strictly prohibited.
You do!!!!!!!!!!!! You were there!!!!!!!!!!! You are an eyewitness?
Should we begin calling you a liar now also. You know that witness
testimony you complain about?
> Your witness never names the alleged victim or
>the alleged person who was with her.
So what? Many of these people never got to know each other.Names
became meaningless or forgotten in the Auschwitz atmosphere. The
charges did not require names to the victimsd for it does say: "and
other Allied nationals whose names are unknown."
> All forms of corporal punishment had
>to be approved of in advance by authorities in Berlin.
I thought you said that Berlin had nothing to do with this stuff. when
exactly is Blackmore going to be consistent?
> The very idea of
>little Irma Grese beating people to death with her cellophane whip is a
>joke.
I don't find it funny. She also confessed to it, or did you pass by
that uncomfortable (to your position) testimony when skimming the
book?
> Grese was innocent.
The Court disagreed. They did agree that 11 or so others were not
guilty.
> She never deserved to hang on the basis of
>unproved witchcraft like hysterical denunciations.
She wasn't charged with witchcraft. Stay with the subject matter at
hand.
> And all this fuss and
>ado you raise about these issues is unconvincing and reminds me of a
>Shakespearian line: "Thou doth protest too much."
Look in the mirror, Backmore, for you didn't have to reply to this
post.
Mark Van Alstine
In article <19961227110...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
tut...@aol.com (Tutu101) wrote:
> In reply to Curtis's "ObtuseBlackmore" post: Michael, can you try to be
> more concise and less verbose. If you want to argue withme,take it one
> point at a time. Your long posts are simply too turgid, with too much
> material crammed in there. As to your comments:
>
> I don't believe your witness who claims she saw Grese beat someone to
> death.
And your evidence of such is what exactly, Mr. Belling?
> I happen to know that gratuitous beatings of inmates at Auschwitz
> were strictly prohibited.
Where yo there, Mr. Belling? Or are you simply _assuming_ that because
"officially" such mistreatment of prisoners was suppossedly prohibited, it
didn't happen? How do you explain your "knowing" in light of numerous
testimonies by Nazis and inmates that such beatings took place and were
actually quite common?
> Your witness never names the alleged victim or
> the alleged person who was with her.
Why should this be this required Mr. Belling? Just so that you can toss
one more stumbling block in the path of truth?
> All forms of corporal punishment had
> to be approved of in advance by authorities in Berlin.
And do you have evidence that they _weren't_ approved of?
> The very idea of little Irma Grese beating people to death with her
cellophane
> whip is a joke.
Ah, yes, the "cellophane" whip. But Olga Lengyel simply called it a whip
and noted that Grese "made liberal use" of it and that the prisoners'
"shrieks of pain" and "spurts of blood made her smile." (Lengyel, _Five
Chimneys_, pp.103-104.) And Grese also beat her with pistol and fists as
well:
"...With calculated deliberation, she took her revolver from her desk and
advanced toward me. We were a striking , I, close-cropped, clad in rags,
dirty, drenched from the rain, and she with her coiffed hair, her striking
beauty, and her artful makeup. Her impeccably tailored suit showed off her
lovely figure.
"'You swine,' she hissed between her teeth. I cringed from the cold barrel
of her revolver as she passed it over my left temple. I felt her hot
breath. 'You're afraid, aren't you?'
"Suddenly, the butt of her gun came down on my head, once, twice, again
and again. She struck me full in the face with her fist, again and again.
"I tatsed my blood, I stumbled. I toppled on the wolskin. When I opened my
eyes I was lying outside in the mud, exposed to the rain which was still
falling. The camp bell was ringing for another 'selection.' Bruised,
covered with blood, I picked myself up and ran toward my barrack in order
not to miss the roll call.
"As I turned, I saw Irma Griese coming from the Fuererstube, her whip in
hand, to designate the next batch for the gas chamber. Why she did not
send me there, or shoot me, or put me to death in some more evil fashion,
I could never guess." (Ibid. pp.107-108.)
> Grese was innocent.
Grese was a sadistic torturer who selected prisoners for death in the gas
chambers at Auschwitz.
> She never deserved to hang on the basis of
> unproved witchcraft like hysterical denunciations.
The crimes for which Grese was tried, convicted of, and executed for were
neither "unproved witchcraft" nor "hysterical denunciations." Such will
not change no matter how times Mr. Belling makes "hysterical
denunciations" of "unproved witchcraft."
> And all this fuss and ado you raise about these issues is unconvincing and
> reminds me of a Shakespearian line: "Thou doth protest too much."
Actually, the evidence against Grese (and Kramer et. al.) at the Belsen
Trial was compelling. And if Mr. Belling is interested in quotes, perhaps
_he_ will take the following to heart:
"It is better to be silent, and be thought a fool, than to speak and
remove all doubt."
-Silvan Engel
For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semtism, and outright lies,
please visit:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196
Mark
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts."
-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Doc Tor
>In article <19961227110...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
>tut...@aol.com (Tutu101) wrote:
>
>> In reply to Curtis's "ObtuseBlackmore" post: Michael, can you try to be
>> more concise and less verbose. If you want to argue withme,take it one
>> point at a time. Your long posts are simply too turgid, with too much
>> material crammed in there. As to your comments:
>>
>> I don't believe your witness who claims she saw Grese beat someone to
>> death.
>
>And your evidence of such is what exactly, Mr. Belling?
>
>> I happen to know that gratuitous beatings of inmates at Auschwitz
>> were strictly prohibited.
>
>Where yo there, Mr. Belling? Or are you simply _assuming_ that because
>"officially" such mistreatment of prisoners was suppossedly prohibited, it
>didn't happen? How do you explain your "knowing" in light of numerous
>testimonies by Nazis and inmates that such beatings took place and were
>actually quite common?
>> Your witness never names the alleged victim or
>> the alleged person who was with her.
>
>Why should this be this required Mr. Belling? Just so that you can toss
>one more stumbling block in the path of truth?
How does one establish the commission of a crime without a victim?
>> All forms of corporal punishment had
>> to be approved of in advance by authorities in Berlin.
>
>And do you have evidence that they _weren't_ approved of?
You folks would certainly have found the records of it by now. But
then, without a name, how would you know?
>> The very idea of little Irma Grese beating people to death with her
>cellophane
>> whip is a joke.
>
>Ah, yes, the "cellophane" whip. But Olga Lengyel simply called it a whip
>and noted that Grese "made liberal use" of it and that the prisoners'
>"shrieks of pain" and "spurts of blood made her smile." (Lengyel, _Five
>Chimneys_, pp.103-104.) And Grese also beat her with pistol and fists as
>well:
Ah, yes, second only to a wet noodle in lethality.
>"...With calculated deliberation, she took her revolver from her desk and
>advanced toward me. We were a striking , I, close-cropped, clad in rags,
>dirty, drenched from the rain, and she with her coiffed hair, her striking
>beauty, and her artful makeup. Her impeccably tailored suit showed off her
>lovely figure.
Sounds more like female jealousy here.
>"'You swine,' she hissed between her teeth. I cringed from the cold barrel
>of her revolver as she passed it over my left temple. I felt her hot
>breath. 'You're afraid, aren't you?'
Out of curiosity, since all of these bad guys use revolvers, what
was the make and model of this military issue revolver. It is just a
matter of idle curiosity as Smith's Book of Pistols and Revolvers does
not list one for either world war.
>"Suddenly, the butt of her gun came down on my head, once, twice, again
>and again. She struck me full in the face with her fist, again and again.
>
>"I tatsed my blood, I stumbled. I toppled on the wolskin. When I opened my
>eyes I was lying outside in the mud, exposed to the rain which was still
>falling. The camp bell was ringing for another 'selection.' Bruised,
>covered with blood, I picked myself up and ran toward my barrack in order
>not to miss the roll call.
>
>"As I turned, I saw Irma Griese coming from the Fuererstube, her whip in
>hand, to designate the next batch for the gas chamber. Why she did not
>send me there, or shoot me, or put me to death in some more evil fashion,
>I could never guess." (Ibid. pp.107-108.)
What Grese only got from rumor this woman knows about even though
she never saw one either.
>> Grese was innocent.
>
>Grese was a sadistic torturer who selected prisoners for death in the gas
>chambers at Auschwitz.
You appear to base that claim upon the statement of a woman who had
no more than rumor to go on either.
>> She never deserved to hang on the basis of
>> unproved witchcraft like hysterical denunciations.
>
>The crimes for which Grese was tried, convicted of, and executed for were
>neither "unproved witchcraft" nor "hysterical denunciations." Such will
>not change no matter how times Mr. Belling makes "hysterical
>denunciations" of "unproved witchcraft."
Rather they were worse as there are not even named victims, the
"witnesses" had no way to know what was happening to people either,
and of course any of them could just taken a look towards the Kremas
at any time and seen the thousands of people lined up around the block
for their turn to inhale -- but no one saw them.
>> And all this fuss and ado you raise about these issues is unconvincing and
>> reminds me of a Shakespearian line: "Thou doth protest too much."
>
>Actually, the evidence against Grese (and Kramer et. al.) at the Belsen
>Trial was compelling. And if Mr. Belling is interested in quotes, perhaps
>_he_ will take the following to heart:
Grese was being tried for gassing people where there were not gass
chambers? How amusing.
Or perhaps you are saying they were being tried for crimes as
Auschwitz which the prosecturs were not permitted to examine and thus
had no evidence there were gas chambers of any kind. After all, had
they simply seen the layout of the camp and been pointed ot the Kremas
they could have seen for themselves the absurdity of the claim.
>"It is better to be silent, and be thought a fool, than to speak and
>remove all doubt."
> -Silvan Engel
>
>
>For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
>Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semtism, and outright lies,
>please visit:
More kike-talk. It does get tiring.
-- Doc Tor
=====
If history has taught us anything it is that history will be revised.
---
Revisionists are sneaky bastards, always relying on facts and figures.
Doc Tor
On Fri, 27 Dec 1996 17:09:27 -0500, schw...@infinet.com (Sara aka
Perrrfect) wrote:
>In article <32c4348...@news.gte.net>, Matt Giwer (mgi...@gte.net), an
>unmitigated coward pretending to be pre...@itated.ued wrote:
As noted, kike speak is congenital defect carried by the female of
the species.
>Fascinating that people too cowardly to use their own names love to hide
>under the guise of doctors. Doc Savage. (Yes, I know, it's a fictional
>character). Doc Tor. Doc Tavish. See a trend here?
See the kike be clever. It is not so clever?
>Sara
>
>--
>"Remember, there is a great difference between kneeling down and bending over."
> Frank Zappa
An example of a kike fixation.
Doc Tor
On Fri, 27 Dec 1996 17:01:20 GMT, mcu...@inetport.com (Mike Curtis)
wrote:
>tut...@aol.com (Tutu101) wrote:
>
>>In reply to Curtis's "ObtuseBlackmore" post: Michael, can you try to be
>>more concise and less verbose.
>
>From reading the responses supplied by deniers and your handlers I
>have found them to be illiterate and obtuse. So, I am making an effort
>to make an explanation that a five year old would understand.
Another example of kike-mouth for all to observe.
Sara aka Perrrfect
In article <32c4348...@news.gte.net>, Matt Giwer (mgi...@gte.net), an
unmitigated coward pretending to be pre...@itated.ued wrote:
Fascinating that people too cowardly to use their own names love to hide
under the guise of doctors. Doc Savage. (Yes, I know, it's a fictional
character). Doc Tor. Doc Tavish. See a trend here?
Hilary Ostrov
On Fri, 27 Dec 1996 17:01:20 GMT, in
<32c9fb3b...@news.inetport.com>, mcu...@inetport.com (Mike
Curtis) wrote:
>tut...@aol.com (Tutu101) wrote:
>
[snip]
>> All forms of corporal punishment had
>>to be approved of in advance by authorities in Berlin.
>
>I thought you said that Berlin had nothing to do with this stuff. when
>exactly is Blackmore going to be consistent?
>
Gee, Mike, Blackmore _is_ consistent! No matter which nym s/he pastes
under s/he always manages to prove s/he can't handle the basics of
USENET 101. Not to mention being faithfully consistent with all the
tenets of DENIER 101, including "peddle a lie - and when cornered
squirm and/or backpedal as fast as you can" ;>)
Posted/e-mailed
hro
=====================
Hilary Ostrov
E-mail: hos...@uniserve.com
WWW: http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/
Gord McFee
In message <schwartz-ya023180...@news.infinet.com> -
schw...@infinet.com (Sara aka Perrrfect)Fri, 27 Dec 1996 17:09:27 -0500
writes:
:>
:>In article <32c4348...@news.gte.net>, Matt Giwer (mgi...@gte.net), an
:>unmitigated coward pretending to be pre...@itated.ued wrote:
:>
:>Fascinating that people too cowardly to use their own names love to hide
:>under the guise of doctors. Doc Savage. (Yes, I know, it's a fictional
:>character). Doc Tor. Doc Tavish. See a trend here?
Yeah. They are two *sick* losers!
--
Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time
Michael P. Stein
In article <19961227110...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Tutu101 <tut...@aol.com> wrote:
>I don't believe your witness who claims she saw Grese beat someone to
>were strictly prohibited.
So was what happened to Rodney King. I suppose you will claim that
the strict prohibition against police brutality proves that the videotape
was forged?
>Your witness never names the alleged victim or
>the alleged person who was with her.
Irrelevant. If I see a murder on the street, it is not necessary for
me to know the victim's name in order to know that I have seen a murder.
Nor is the name of the accompanying person relevant unless that person
also appears as a witness and contradicts the story.
>All forms of corporal punishment had
>to be approved of in advance by authorities in Berlin. The very idea of
>little Irma Grese beating people to death with her cellophane whip is a
>joke. Grese was innocent. She never deserved to hang on the basis of
>unproved witchcraft like hysterical denunciations. And all this fuss and
>ado you raise about these issues is unconvincing and reminds me of a
>Shakespearian line: "Thou doth protest too much."
Pot. Kettle. Black.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
Doc Tavish
Doc Tor wrote:
>
> On Fri, 27 Dec 1996 17:09:27 -0500, schw...@infinet.com (Sara aka
> Perrrfect) wrote:
>
> >unmitigated coward pretending to be pre...@itated.ued wrote:
>
> the species.
>
> >under the guise of doctors. Doc Savage. (Yes, I know, it's a fictional
> >character). Doc Tor. Doc Tavish. See a trend here?
Sara, my next incarnation may be Doc Tari :-) You're so sweet when you
get flustered you'll never have to worry about getting help if you call
out: "is there a doctor in the house"? I am terrified that hostile Jooos
want to get me and make me confess to things I didn't do - or to let
them make sport of me. I know something about you now that I didn't know
before. You taught at a cosmetology school for a while and you were the
one that taught Lorena Bobbit how to do manicures!
Doc Tavish
>
> See the kike be clever. It is not so clever?
>
> >Sara
> >
> >--
> >"Remember, there is a great difference between kneeling down and bending over."
> > Frank Zappa
>
> An example of a kike fixation.
>
Mike Curtis
hos...@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:
>On Fri, 27 Dec 1996 17:01:20 GMT, in
><32c9fb3b...@news.inetport.com>, mcu...@inetport.com (Mike
>Curtis) wrote:
>
>>tut...@aol.com (Tutu101) wrote:
>>
>
>[snip]
>
>>> All forms of corporal punishment had
>>>to be approved of in advance by authorities in Berlin.
>>
>>I thought you said that Berlin had nothing to do with this stuff. when
>>exactly is Blackmore going to be consistent?
>>
>
>Gee, Mike, Blackmore _is_ consistent! No matter which nym s/he pastes
>under s/he always manages to prove s/he can't handle the basics of
>USENET 101. Not to mention being faithfully consistent with all the
>tenets of DENIER 101, including "peddle a lie - and when cornered
>squirm and/or backpedal as fast as you can" ;>)
>
If this is how they are being handled, Hillary, no wonder the denial
groups are afraid to enter this newsgroup anymore. They are plum outa
ideas.
Posted/e-mailed
Mike Curtis
rblac...@juno.com wrote:
> mcu...@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
>
>
>
> If this is how they are being handled, Hillary, no wonder the denial
> groups are afraid to enter this newsgroup anymore. They are plum outa
> ideas.
>
>>>>>
>No one is afraid of your little newsgroup.....by the way, there is
>no contradiction in what I wrote..but youknew that already Mike...
>stop jacking the browsers....
Wrote about what? This from Mr. Blackmore, who suffers from thread
drift and doesn't want to wait for his handlers.
They are scared silly. They haven't been here since I first joined
this group. This isn't my little newsgroup, btw. If they weren't
fearful of presenting their arguments they would show up and discuss
this stuff as good historical revisionists. What better way to promote
debate than to prove the basic point historically? If that were truly
what these groups wanted to do we wouldn't be having this discussion
about their cowardace, now would we?
Michael P. Stein
In article <5a5vfm$j...@juliana.sprynet.com>, <rblac...@juno.com> wrote:
> mcu...@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
> If this is how they are being handled, Hillary, no wonder the denial
> groups are afraid to enter this newsgroup anymore. They are plum outa
> ideas.
>
>>>>>
>No one is afraid of your little newsgroup.....
"I always have a suspicion of people who claim to speak for everyone.
They have bizarre complexes." - rblackmore
Source:
Subject: Re: No SS Man Was Ever Punished?
Date: 22 Dec 1996 10:13:24 GMT
Message-ID: <59j1k4$h...@juliana.sprynet.com>
rblac...@juno.com
> writes:
> :>
> :>In article <32c4348...@news.gte.net>, Matt Giwer (mgi...@gte.net), an
> :>unmitigated coward pretending to be pre...@itated.ued wrote:
> :>Fascinating that people too cowardly to use their own names love to hide
> :>under the guise of doctors. Doc Savage. (Yes, I know, it's a fictional
> :>character). Doc Tor. Doc Tavish. See a trend here?
>
>
>
>
> --
> Gord McFee
> I'll write no line before its time
>
>
>>>>
rblac...@juno.com
mcu...@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
If this is how they are being handled, Hillary, no wonder the denial
groups are afraid to enter this newsgroup anymore. They are plum outa
ideas.
Posted/e-mailed
Mike Curtis
E-mail mcu...@inetport.com
> Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/
>
>>>>
rblac...@juno.com
mst...@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) writes:
In article <19961227110...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Tutu101 <tut...@aol.com> wrote:
I don't believe your witness who claims she saw Grese beat someone to
death. I happen to know that gratuitous beatings of inmates at Auschwitz
were strictly prohibited.
So was what happened to Rodney King. I suppose you will claim that
the strict prohibition against police brutality proves that the videotape
was forged?
We have that on video tape. not a very good analogy.-rb
Your witness never names the alleged victim or
the alleged person who was with her.-rb
Irrelevant. If I see a murder on the street, it is not necessary for
me to know the victim's name in order to know that I have seen a murder.
Nor is the name of the accompanying person relevant unless that person
> also appears as a witness and contradicts the story.
Ah--but it IS necessary to provide a corpse to prove murder has indeed taken
place. The allegations against Grese were simply maliciously imputed to her
by hateful, hysterical, and jealous ex-inmates.--rb
>
>
> >All forms of corporal punishment had
> >to be approved of in advance by authorities in Berlin. The very idea of
> >little Irma Grese beating people to death with her cellophane whip is a
> >joke. Grese was innocent. She never deserved to hang on the basis of
> >unproved witchcraft like hysterical denunciations. And all this fuss and
> >ado you raise about these issues is unconvincing and reminds me of a
> >Shakespearian line: "Thou doth protest too much."
>
> Pot. Kettle. Black.
I am not protesting.--rb
Gord McFee
In message <5a5vbn$j...@juliana.sprynet.com> - rblac...@juno.com29 Dec 1996
14:31:19 GMT writes:
:>
:>> gmc...@ibm.net (Gord McFee) writes:
:>> In message <schwartz-ya023180...@news.infinet.com> -
:>> schw...@infinet.com (Sara aka Perrrfect)Fri, 27 Dec 1996 17:09:27 -0500
:>> writes:
:>> :>
:>> :>In article <32c4348...@news.gte.net>, Matt Giwer (mgi...@gte.net), an
:>> :>unmitigated coward pretending to be pre...@itated.ued wrote:
:>> :>
:>> :>Fascinating that people too cowardly to use their own names love to hide
:>> :>under the guise of doctors. Doc Savage. (Yes, I know, it's a fictional
:>> :>character). Doc Tor. Doc Tavish. See a trend here?
:>>
:>> Yeah. They are two *sick* losers!
:>Don't forget Doc Keren...
It's Dr. Keren. Unlike the two losers I referred to above, Dr. Keren has
earned the right to be called Dr.
rblac...@juno.com
pre...@itated.ued (Doc Tor) writes:
On Fri, 27 Dec 1996 22:31:01 -0700, mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van
Alstine) wrote:
I don't believe your witness who claims she saw Grese beat someone to
death.
And your evidence of such is what exactly, Mr. Belling?
COMMENT:
I don't need evidence. I said I don't believe her. It is up to you to provide
evidence that what she alleged was true. it was not provided at the Belsen
trial, so I doubt whether you shall provide it today. As it is, I am still waiting for
the Larson autopsy reports......rb
I happen to know that gratuitous beatings of inmates at Auschwitz
were strictly prohibited.
Where yo there, Mr. Belling? Or are you simply _assuming_ that because
"officially" such mistreatment of prisoners was suppossedly prohibited, it
didn't happen? How do you explain your "knowing" in light of numerous
testimonies by Nazis and inmates that such beatings took place and were
actually quite common?
COMMENT: These statements, without factual evidence, are irrelevant and prove nothing.
Yet, such beatings were indeed prohibited.--rb
Your witness never names the alleged victim or
the alleged person who was with her.
Why should this be this required Mr. Belling? Just so that you can toss
one more stumbling block in the path of truth?
COMMENT: It would not be a stumbing bloc had she at least had a NAME for
these alleged victims. Her testimony strikes me as being hysterical and completely
fabricated.--rb
How does one establish the commission of a crime without a victim?
All forms of corporal punishment had
to be approved of in advance by authorities in Berlin.
And do you have evidence that they _weren't_ approved of?
COMMENT: Do you have evidence that they WERE?--rb
You folks would certainly have found the records of it by now. But
then, without a name, how would you know?
The very idea of little Irma Grese beating people to death with her
cellophane
whip is a joke.
> >
> >Ah, yes, the "cellophane" whip. But Olga Lengyel simply called it a whip
> >and noted that Grese "made liberal use" of it and that the prisoners'
> >"shrieks of pain" and "spurts of blood made her smile." (Lengyel, _Five
> >Chimneys_, pp.103-104.) And Grese also beat her with pistol and fists as
> >well:
COMMENT: This sounds like more fabricated, nonsense again, similar to "the angel
of Death" nonsense, which was obviously copied from the Mengele pattern and used
as a form of "artistic license" to paint the most horrifying picture possible. A droll, truthful,
report would not have sold many copies....she had to demonize her guards in a mythological
way.--rb
>
> Ah, yes, second only to a wet noodle in lethality.
>
> >"...With calculated deliberation, she took her revolver from her desk and
> >advanced toward me. We were a striking , I, close-cropped, clad in rags,
> >dirty, drenched from the rain, and she with her coiffed hair, her striking
> >beauty, and her artful makeup. Her impeccably tailored suit showed off her
> >lovely figure.
COMMENT: Typical Hollywood drama. This sounds so absurd. By the way, Greses
never sported "coiffed hair" at Auschwitz. Another invention among many by your witness.--rb
>
> Sounds more like female jealousy here.
>
> >"'You swine,' she hissed between her teeth. I cringed from the cold barrel
> >of her revolver as she passed it over my left temple. I felt her hot
> >breath. 'You're afraid, aren't you?'
COMMENT: Listen to the dialogue again...."You swine, she HISSED between
her teeth. I CRINGED from the COLD BARREL of her revolver......More artistic license,
the descriptions are direct out of a Peter Lorre film......and revolvers were not standard issue
to concentration camp overseers...another lie.--rb
>
> Out of curiosity, since all of these bad guys use revolvers, what
> was the make and model of this military issue revolver. It is just a
> matter of idle curiosity as Smith's Book of Pistols and Revolvers does
> not list one for either world war.
>
> >"Suddenly, the butt of her gun came down on my head, once, twice, again
> >and again. She struck me full in the face with her fist, again and again.
> >
> >"I tatsed my blood, I stumbled. I toppled on the wolskin. When I opened my
> >eyes I was lying outside in the mud, exposed to the rain which was still
> >falling. The camp bell was ringing for another 'selection.' Bruised,
> >covered with blood, I picked myself up and ran toward my barrack in order
> >not to miss the roll call.
> >
> >"As I turned, I saw Irma Griese coming from the Fuererstube, her whip in
> >hand, to designate the next batch for the gas chamber. Why she did not
> >send me there, or shoot me, or put me to death in some more evil fashion,
> >I could never guess." (Ibid. pp.107-108.)
COMMENT: Of course, what else could come after the scenes depicted above, but
Irma Grese dispatching people to the rumored "gas chambers"...It is obvious Olga
was hoping for a movie contract bid with those descriptions. Send it on to Spielberg,
it ought to be more humorous than Schindler's list, and that was a riot.--rb
>
> What Grese only got from rumor this woman knows about even though
> she never saw one either.
>
> >> Grese was innocent.
> >
> >Grese was a sadistic torturer who selected prisoners for death in the gas
> >chambers at Auschwitz.
COMMENT: Because YOU say so.....rb
>
> You appear to base that claim upon the statement of a woman who had
> no more than rumor to go on either.
>
> >> She never deserved to hang on the basis of
> >> unproved witchcraft like hysterical denunciations.
> >
> >The crimes for which Grese was tried, convicted of, and executed for were
> >neither "unproved witchcraft" nor "hysterical denunciations." Such will
> >not change no matter how times Mr. Belling makes "hysterical
> >denunciations" of "unproved witchcraft."
I fear that what I wrote is true....RB
>
> Rather they were worse as there are not even named victims, the
> "witnesses" had no way to know what was happening to people either,
> and of course any of them could just taken a look towards the Kremas
> at any time and seen the thousands of people lined up around the block
> for their turn to inhale -- but no one saw them.
>
> >> And all this fuss and ado you raise about these issues is unconvincing and
> >> reminds me of a Shakespearian line: "Thou doth protest too much."
> >
> >Actually, the evidence against Grese (and Kramer et. al.) at the Belsen
> >Trial was compelling. And if Mr. Belling is interested in quotes, perhaps
> >_he_ will take the following to heart:
>
> Grese was being tried for gassing people where there were not gass
> chambers? How amusing.
COMMENT:
Jews were being tried for ritual murder when there were no ritual murders?
How amusing......rb
Mike Curtis
rblac...@juno.com wrote:
This post sums up Blackmore and deniers for what they are. They have
the gall to accuse historians and many of us here of handling the
history of the Holocaust like a religion. No good historian accepts
something historical as gospel without the proper substantiation.
Let's look at what Blackmore has said now!
> On Fri, 27 Dec 1996 22:31:01 -0700, mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van
> Alstine) wrote:
rblackmore writes:
> I don't believe your witness who claims she saw Grese beat someone to
> death.
>
Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>And your evidence of such is what exactly, Mr. Belling?
>
rblackmore writes:
>COMMENT:
>
>I don't need evidence. I said I don't believe her.
He doesn't need evidence! Blackmore just chooses NOT to believe this
witness because it interferes with his denial game. To hell with
substantiation and in this case the rule of legal testimony.
> It is up to you to provide
>evidence that what she alleged was true.
No, we do not. The Judges believed this particular witness or they
didn't. The judges did believe the presentation and the defense was
unable to restore their client by impeaching the witness. Your
opinions do not matter a twig in this discussion. We are already aware
of your bias and inclinations. What you use to back up your opinion is
of much more value here that an empty "because I say so" argument.
A pattern was presented for the accused Grese that was unique to her
and to the other accused. As a pattern grows and more people testify
as to what they saw then the picture the defense has to overcome is
clear. This they were unable to do.
> it was not provided at the Belsen
>trial, so I doubt whether you shall provide it today. As it is, I am still waiting for
>the Larson autopsy reports......rb
The case was made conclusively at the Belsen trial no matter how much
you whine. Yale has told you where to find the reports so go and get
them.
>
> I happen to know that gratuitous beatings of inmates at Auschwitz
> were strictly prohibited.
>
>Where yo there, Mr. Belling? Or are you simply _assuming_ that because
>"officially" such mistreatment of prisoners was suppossedly prohibited, it
>didn't happen? How do you explain your "knowing" in light of numerous
>testimonies by Nazis and inmates that such beatings took place and were
>actually quite common?
>
>
>COMMENT: These statements, without factual evidence, are irrelevant and prove nothing.
>Yet, such beatings were indeed prohibited.--rb
>
The question isn't if the rules "prohibited the beatings, but rather
if the rule was idle as far as prisoners were concerned.
Grese under prosecution questioning by Col. Backhouse:
[page 256]
Were you allowed to beat people? -- No.
So it was not a question of having orders from your superiors to do
it. You did this against orders, did you? -- Yes.
[Blackmore should note the above admission.]
Were you the only person who beat prisoners against regulations? -- I
do not know.
Did you ever see anyone else beat prisoners? -- Yes.
[Then she does know that others beat prisoners against regulations.
Blackmore tries to tell us that this wasn't a fuzzy rule in the camps.
Is Grese hedging around here?]
Did you sometimes get orders to do so? -- No.
Did you give orders to other Aufseherinnen working under you to beat
prisoners? -- Yes.
[Here is Grese giving orders that Blackmore continually _used_ to say
that she could not give. He just said *orders* and did not specify the
*kind* of orders. The point in this testimony is that she had no
authority to give orders to beat other prisoners and yet, she did.]
Had you the right to give such authorization? -- No.
[Apparently she had no fear of the consequences concerning the
violation of this rule.]
<end quote>
> Your witness never names the alleged victim or
> the alleged person who was with her.
>
>Why should this be this required Mr. Belling? Just so that you can toss
>one more stumbling block in the path of truth?
>
>COMMENT: It would not be a stumbing bloc had she at least had a NAME for
>these alleged victims. Her testimony strikes me as being hysterical and completely
>fabricated.--rb
>
Let's see. I wonder how many individuals named the victims they saw
blow up in the Oklahoma bombing. Names, Blackmore, were not required
by the charges unless actual names were mentioned.
[snip]
> The very idea of little Irma Grese beating people to death with her
>cellophane
> whip is a joke.
>> >
>> >Ah, yes, the "cellophane" whip. But Olga Lengyel simply called it a whip
>> >and noted that Grese "made liberal use" of it and that the prisoners'
>> >"shrieks of pain" and "spurts of blood made her smile." (Lengyel, _Five
>> >Chimneys_, pp.103-104.) And Grese also beat her with pistol and fists as
>> >well:
>
>
>COMMENT: This sounds like more fabricated, nonsense again, similar to "the angel
>of Death" nonsense, which was obviously copied from the Mengele pattern and used
>as a form of "artistic license" to paint the most horrifying picture possible. A droll, truthful,
>report would not have sold many copies....she had to demonize her guards in a mythological
>way.--rb
Did you carry a stick at Auschwitz? -- Yes, an ordinary walking-stick.
Did you carry a whip at Auschwitz? -- Yes, made out of cellophane in
the weaving factory in the camp. It was a very light whip, but if I
hit somebody with it, it would hurt. After eight days Kommandant
Kramer prohibited whips, but we nevertheless went on using them, I
never carried a rubber truncheon.
Sorry, Blackmore, but she carried a stick and a whip and she admitted
using them to beat internees. Next question?
>>
>> Ah, yes, second only to a wet noodle in lethality.
>>
>> >"...With calculated deliberation, she took her revolver from her desk and
>> >advanced toward me. We were a striking , I, close-cropped, clad in rags,
>> >dirty, drenched from the rain, and she with her coiffed hair, her striking
>> >beauty, and her artful makeup. Her impeccably tailored suit showed off her
>> >lovely figure.
>
>
>COMMENT: Typical Hollywood drama. This sounds so absurd. By the way, Greses
>never sported "coiffed hair" at Auschwitz. Another invention among many by your witness.--rb
She didn't? You were there again?!
>>
>> Sounds more like female jealousy here.
>>
>> >"'You swine,' she hissed between her teeth. I cringed from the cold barrel
>> >of her revolver as she passed it over my left temple. I felt her hot
>> >breath. 'You're afraid, aren't you?'
>
>COMMENT: Listen to the dialogue again...."You swine, she HISSED between
>her teeth. I CRINGED from the COLD BARREL of her revolver......More artistic license,
>the descriptions are direct out of a Peter Lorre film......and revolvers were not standard issue
>to concentration camp overseers...another lie.--rb
Fabrications just flow from Blackmore's.
[page 256 of _The Belsen Trial_]
You affected heavy top-boots and you liked to walk around with a
revolver strapped on your waist and a whip in your had, did you not?
-- I did not like it.
[Ahh, but she did it. He had the boots, she had the whip and she had
the revolver, folks, but the poor girl did not like it.]
You thought it very clever to have a whip made in the factory and even
when the Kommandant told you to stop using it you went on, did you
not? -- Yes.
[A resounding YES echos through the halls of justice. The Witness
admits disobeying orders from her comanding officer!]
What was this whip really made of? -- Cellophane paper plaited like a
pigtail. It was translucent like white glass.
[The Nazi Grese is proud of this illegal whip.]
The type of whip you would use for a horse? -- Yes.
Then most of these prisoners who said they saw you carrying a riding
whip were not far wrong, were they? -- No, they were not wrong.
[Oops. Who is Blackmore going to believe now?]
Did the other Aufseherinnen have these whips made too? -- No.
[This goes to my point above that Grese was unique in this respect.]
It was just your bright idea? -- Yes.
[She did this thing all by her lonesome.]
In Lager "C" you used to carry a walking-stick, too, and sometimes you
beat people with the whip and sometimes with the stick? -- Yes.
[Another resounding YES!]
<end quotes>
>
>COMMENT: Of course, what else could come after the scenes depicted above, but
>Irma Grese dispatching people to the rumored "gas chambers"...It is obvious Olga
>was hoping for a movie contract bid with those descriptions. Send it on to Spielberg,
>it ought to be more humorous than Schindler's list, and that was a riot.--rb
There is nothing humorous about these appalling events.
>>
>> What Grese only got from rumor this woman knows about even though
>> she never saw one either.
>>
>> >> Grese was innocent.
>> >
>> >Grese was a sadistic torturer who selected prisoners for death in the gas
>> >chambers at Auschwitz.
>
>COMMENT: Because YOU say so.....rb
Because she admitted to it, acted the part and her defense could not
overcome the evidence against her.
[snip]
Gord McFee
Mike Curtis wrote:
>
> rblac...@juno.com wrote:
>
> This post sums up Blackmore and deniers for what they are. They have
> the gall to accuse historians and many of us here of handling the
> history of the Holocaust like a religion. No good historian accepts
> something historical as gospel without the proper substantiation.
> Let's look at what Blackmore has said now!
That's what being a denier is all about, Mike, it's the old double
standard. Deny everything until you are backed into a corner and then
accept only what you absolutely have to. Then turn around a week later
and deny you ever accepted anything at all.
[deleted]
> rblackmore writes:
> >COMMENT:
> >
> >I don't need evidence. I said I don't believe her.
>
> He doesn't need evidence! Blackmore just chooses NOT to believe this
> witness because it interferes with his denial game. To hell with
> substantiation and in this case the rule of legal testimony.
That's his game and that is the game all of them play. It's the same
approach that has them refuse the testimony of *every* witness, unless
the witness happens to support the denier point of view.
Don't forget, Grese and every other SS person was tortured beyond words
until they would say anything that the evil Allies wanted. This
happened both after and during the war.
Mark Van Alstine
> pre...@itated.ued (Doc Tor) writes:
> On Fri, 27 Dec 1996 22:31:01 -0700, mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van
> Alstine) wrote:
> rblackmore writes:
>
> I don't believe your witness who claims she saw Grese beat someone to
> death.
>
> And your evidence of such is what exactly, Mr. Belling?
>
> COMMENT:
>
> I don't need evidence. I said I don't believe her....
In other words Mr.Belling has a solipsistic world-view. All that does not
emanate from his imagination is exlcuded.
[snip]
> I happen to know that gratuitous beatings of inmates at Auschwitz
> were strictly prohibited.
As they are also strictly prohibited by law in the U.S. Yet there are many
documented cases of police brutality. Such as in the case of Rodney King,
for example.
Mr. Belling's implied assertion that becuase "gratuitous beatings of
inmates at Auschwitz" was "strictly prohibited" _evidences_ that inmates
at Auschwitz _weren't_ gratuitously beaten is (at best) simply fallacious
reasoning. Given that there are numerable accounts of prisoners being
gratuitously beaten at Auschwitz, Mr. Belling's implied assertion can be
seen as something more than a paucity of reasoning skills: a deliberate
attempt on his part to white-wash Nazi brutality.
> Where yo there, Mr. Belling? Or are you simply _assuming_ that because
> "officially" such mistreatment of prisoners was suppossedly prohibited, it
> didn't happen? How do you explain your "knowing" in light of numerous
> testimonies by Nazis and inmates that such beatings took place and were
> actually quite common?
>
>
> COMMENT: These statements, without factual evidence, are irrelevant
> and prove nothing.
Again, Mr. Belling's attempts to white-wash Nazi brutality. Here are few
more examples of the kind of Nazi brutality that Mr. Belling attempts to
so fervently white-whash and deny:
"Sixty prisoners newly arrived from the police prison at Sonowitz and
marked with Nos. 1283-1342 also take part inthe punishment roll call
occaisoned by the escape of Tadeusz Wiejowski.
"During the first punishment roll call, the first public flogging, on the
stand made in the camp carpentry shop, takes, place. Flogging is
administered to prisoners interrogated by the SS functionaries of the
Political Section on suspicion of helping Tadeusz Wiejowski escape and
maintaining contacts with civilian workers employed in the camp. Flogging
is carried out by the Roll Call Leader, Gerhard Palitzsch,* with a stick
four centimeters in diameter." (Czech, _Auscwhitz Chronicle_, p.17.)
"*Formally, a flogging consists of 25 blows, but this rule is not
followed. The whipped prisoners has to count the blows himself aloud in
German. If he makes a mistake, the punishment is repeated from the
beginning." (Ibid. p.17fn.)
"A few hundred Russian prisoners of war are admitted and put in Block 11.
They are put to work excavating sand n the gravel pit behind the camp
kitchen, next to the SS Block Leader's room. Within a few days the entire
group is murdered during work. Yhe SS Men kill them with shots from a
short, small-caliber gun and the Capos beat them to death with shovels and
picks." (Ibid. p74.)
"1,200 convalescents and patients whose rapid recovery to the point of
being able to work seems questionable are transferred to Birkenau and
lodged in Barrack Number 4, later Number 7, the so-called isolation ward
of Section B-Ib. The sick are unloaded in the courtyard of the barrack and
are beaten to death with rods by SS men. The corpses of the murdered men
are brought back to Auschwitz and incinerated in the crematorium." (Ibid.
p.143.)
> Yet, such beatings were indeed prohibited.--rb
Again, Mr. Belling's implied assertion can be seen as something more than
a paucity of reasoning skills: a deliberate attempt on his part to
white-wash Nazi brutality.
> Your witness never names the alleged victim or
> the alleged person who was with her.
>
> Why should this be this required Mr. Belling? Just so that you can toss
> one more stumbling block in the path of truth?
>
> COMMENT: It would not be a stumbing bloc had she at least had a NAME for
> these alleged victims. Her testimony strikes me as being hysterical and
> completely fabricated.--rb
In other words Mr.Belling has a solipsistic world-view. All that does not
emanate from his twisted imagination is exlcuded.
> How does one establish the commission of a crime without a victim?
>
> All forms of corporal punishment had
> to be approved of in advance by authorities in Berlin.
>
> And do you have evidence that they _weren't_ approved of?
>
> COMMENT: Do you have evidence that they WERE?--rb
Given, for example, that it took _six_ days between (July 18 to July, 24,
1940) the time SS Major General Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski ordered the
execution of cilivian workers in connection to the escape of Tadeusz
Wiejowski, and when Ho"ss recieved written confirmation of Bach-Zelewski's
order, it would indeed appear that the immediate flogging of prisoners who
were _suspected_ of aiding Tadeusz Wiejowsk escape _was_ done without the
advance approval by "by authorities in Berlin." (cf. Ibid. pp.17,19,24.)
> You folks would certainly have found the records of it by now. But
> then, without a name, how would you know?
See above.
> The very idea of little Irma Grese beating people to death with her
> cellophane whip is a joke.
>
> > >Ah, yes, the "cellophane" whip. But Olga Lengyel simply called it a whip
> > >and noted that Grese "made liberal use" of it and that the prisoners'
> > >"shrieks of pain" and "spurts of blood made her smile." (Lengyel, _Five
> > >Chimneys_, pp.103-104.) And Grese also beat her with pistol and fists as
> > >well:
>
>
> COMMENT: This sounds like more fabricated, nonsense again, similar to
> "the angel of Death" nonsense, which was obviously copied from the Mengele
> pattern and used as a form of "artistic license" to paint the most
> horrifying picture possible. A droll, truthful, report would not have sold
> many copies....she had to demonize her guards in a mythological way.--rb
Mr. Belling's assertion can be seen as something more than a paucity of
reasoning skills: a deliberate attempt on his part to white-wash Nazi
brutality.
> > Ah, yes, second only to a wet noodle in lethality.
> >
> > >"...With calculated deliberation, she took her revolver from her desk and
> > >advanced toward me. We were a striking , I, close-cropped, clad in rags,
> > >dirty, drenched from the rain, and she with her coiffed hair, her striking
> > >beauty, and her artful makeup. Her impeccably tailored suit showed off her
> > >lovely figure.
>
>
> COMMENT: Typical Hollywood drama. This sounds so absurd. By the way,
> Greses never sported "coiffed hair" at Auschwitz. Another invention among
> many by your witness.--rb
Mr. Belling's assertion can be seen as something more than a paucity of
reasoning skills: a deliberate attempt on his part to white-wash Nazi
brutality.
> > Sounds more like female jealousy here.
> >
> > >"'You swine,' she hissed between her teeth. I cringed from the cold barrel
> > >of her revolver as she passed it over my left temple. I felt her hot
> > >breath. 'You're afraid, aren't you?'
>
> COMMENT: Listen to the dialogue again...."You swine, she HISSED between
> her teeth. I CRINGED from the COLD BARREL of her revolver......More
> artistic license, the descriptions are direct out of a Peter Lorre
> film......and revolvers were not standard issue to concentration camp
> overseers...another lie.--rb
Mr. Belling's assertion can be seen as something more than a paucity of
reasoning skills: a deliberate attempt on his part to white-wash Nazi
brutality.
> > Out of curiosity, since all of these bad guys use revolvers, what
> > was the make and model of this military issue revolver. It is just a
> > matter of idle curiosity as Smith's Book of Pistols and Revolvers does
> > not list one for either world war.
> >
> > >"Suddenly, the butt of her gun came down on my head, once, twice, again
> > >and again. She struck me full in the face with her fist, again and again.
> > >
> > >"I tatsed my blood, I stumbled. I toppled on the wolskin. When I opened my
> > >eyes I was lying outside in the mud, exposed to the rain which was still
> > >falling. The camp bell was ringing for another 'selection.' Bruised,
> > >covered with blood, I picked myself up and ran toward my barrack in order
> > >not to miss the roll call.
> > >
> > >"As I turned, I saw Irma Griese coming from the Fuererstube, her whip in
> > >hand, to designate the next batch for the gas chamber. Why she did not
> > >send me there, or shoot me, or put me to death in some more evil fashion,
> > >I could never guess." (Ibid. pp.107-108.)
>
>
> COMMENT: Of course, what else could come after the scenes depicted above,
> but Irma Grese dispatching people to the rumored "gas chambers"...It is
> obvious Olga was hoping for a movie contract bid with those descriptions.
> Send it on to Spielberg, it ought to be more humorous than Schindler's list,
> and that was a riot.--rb
Mr. Belling's assertion can be seen as something more than a paucity of
reasoning skills: a deliberate attempt on his part to white-wash Nazi
brutality.
> > What Grese only got from rumor this woman knows about even though
> > she never saw one either.
> >
> > >> Grese was innocent.
> > >
> > >Grese was a sadistic torturer who selected prisoners for death in the gas
> > >chambers at Auschwitz.
>
> COMMENT: Because YOU say so.....rb
Er, no. Because eyewtinesses _and_ Grese said so.
> > You appear to base that claim upon the statement of a woman who had
> > no more than rumor to go on either.
> >
> > >> She never deserved to hang on the basis of
> > >> unproved witchcraft like hysterical denunciations.
> > >
> > >The crimes for which Grese was tried, convicted of, and executed for were
> > >neither "unproved witchcraft" nor "hysterical denunciations." Such will
> > >not change no matter how times Mr. Belling makes "hysterical
> > >denunciations" of "unproved witchcraft."
>
> I fear that what I wrote is true....RB
In other words Mr.Belling has a solipsistic world-view. All that does not
emanate from his imagination is exlcuded.
> > Rather they were worse as there are not even named victims, the
> > "witnesses" had no way to know what was happening to people either,
> > and of course any of them could just taken a look towards the Kremas
> > at any time and seen the thousands of people lined up around the block
> > for their turn to inhale -- but no one saw them.
> >
> > >> And all this fuss and ado you raise about these issues is
> > >>unconvincing and reminds me of a Shakespearian line:
> > >>"Thou doth protest too much."
> > >
> > >Actually, the evidence against Grese (and Kramer et. al.) at the Belsen
> > >Trial was compelling. And if Mr. Belling is interested in quotes, perhaps
> > >_he_ will take the following to heart:
> >
> > Grese was being tried for gassing people where there were not gass
> > chambers? How amusing.
>
> COMMENT: Jews were being tried for ritual murder when there were no
> ritual murders? How amusing......rb
Mr. Belling's assertion can be seen as something more than a paucity of
reasoning skills: a deliberate attempt on his part to white-wash Nazi
brutality.
For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semtism, and outright lies,
please visit:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
rblac...@juno.com
mcu...@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
rblac...@juno.com wrote:
Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
And your evidence of such is what exactly, Mr. Belling?
rblackmore writes:
COMMENT:
I don't need evidence. I said I don't believe her.
He doesn't need evidence! Blackmore just chooses NOT to believe this
witness because it interferes with his denial game. To hell with
substantiation and in this case the rule of legal testimony.
COMMENT: Pot. Kettle. Black. Since when have you ever provided evidence for
anything except your own ignorance.--rb
It is up to you to provide
evidence that what she alleged was true.--rb
No, we do not. The Judges believed this particular witness or they
didn't. The judges did believe the presentation and the defense was
unable to restore their client by impeaching the witness. Your
opinions do not matter a twig in this discussion. We are already aware
of your bias and inclinations. What you use to back up your opinion is
of much more value here that an empty "because I say so" argument.
A pattern was presented for the accused Grese that was unique to her
and to the other accused. As a pattern grows and more people testify
as to what they saw then the picture the defense has to overcome is
clear. This they were unable to do.
COMMENT: Your judges were simply no better than wild west hanging
judges who didn't give a rat's ass about examining evidence in this trial.
If they did, the Germans would either have been acquitted or else received
low prison terms, depending on the case. As it is, your witnesses should have
been charged with perjury. As they were not, it tells us quite a bit about the
low standard of evidence required to hang Germans after the war---in this case-
NONE at all.--rb
Anal Stine:
it was not provided at the Belsen
trial, so I doubt whether you shall provide it today. As it is, I am still waiting for
the Larson autopsy reports......rb
The case was made conclusively at the Belsen trial no matter how much
you whine. Yale has told you where to find the reports so go and get
them.
COMMENT: No, it will not work this way. YOU offered to produce the reports,
and then reiterated the promise when Mike Stein drew it to your attention. Where are the
reports? More fakes, frauds, lies, and your refusal to provide the evidence proves it,
otherwise you would have shut me up a long time ago.....You can't, because you know you
cannot produce what you have promised.--rb
I happen to know that gratuitous beatings of inmates at Auschwitz
were strictly prohibited. --rb
Where yo there, Mr. Belling? Or are you simply _assuming_ that because
"officially" such mistreatment of prisoners was suppossedly prohibited, it
didn't happen? How do you explain your "knowing" in light of numerous
testimonies by Nazis and inmates that such beatings took place and were
actually quite common?
COMMENT: These statements, without factual evidence, are irrelevant and prove nothing.
Yet, such beatings were indeed prohibited.--rb
The question isn't if the rules "prohibited the beatings, but rather
if the rule was idle as far as prisoners were concerned.
Grese under prosecution questioning by Col. Backhouse:
[page 256]
Were you allowed to beat people? -- No.
So it was not a question of having orders from your superiors to do
it. You did this against orders, did you? -- Yes.
[Blackmore should note the above admission.]
COMMENT: I do not need to note it. If she beat people, perhaps they deserved it.
Perhaps she was attacked. perhaps they were indulging in an offensive activity.
This is no reason to give someone the death penalty. What about those Israeli
cops who admitted to beating a Palestinian prisoner to death with a baseball
bat? Have they been charged and convicted? of course not...hyopocrite.--rb
Were you the only person who beat prisoners against regulations? -- I
do not know.
Did you ever see anyone else beat prisoners? -- Yes.
[Then she does know that others beat prisoners against regulations.
Blackmore tries to tell us that this wasn't a fuzzy rule in the camps.
Is Grese hedging around here?]
Did you sometimes get orders to do so? -- No.
Did you give orders to other Aufseherinnen working under you to beat
prisoners? -- Yes.
[Here is Grese giving orders that Blackmore continually _used_ to say
that she could not give. He just said *orders* and did not specify the
*kind* of orders. The point in this testimony is that she had no
authority to give orders to beat other prisoners and yet, she did.]
COMMENT: She could not give orders to the SS. Only to other Aufseherinnen.
However, even these orders had their limitations.--rb
Had you the right to give such authorization? -- No.
[Apparently she had no fear of the consequences concerning the
violation of this rule.]
COMMENT: For beating a thief? She need not fear in that case.--rb
<end quote>
Your witness never names the alleged victim or
the alleged person who was with her.
Why should this be this required Mr. Belling? Just so that you can toss
one more stumbling block in the path of truth?
COMMENT: It would not be a stumbing bloc had she at least had a NAME for
these alleged victims. Her testimony strikes me as being hysterical and completely
fabricated.--rb
Let's see. I wonder how many individuals named the victims they saw
blow up in the Oklahoma bombing. Names, Blackmore, were not required
by the charges unless actual names were mentioned.
COMMENT: What a foolish argument. We all know their identities. In murder trials
it is customary to produce an identity of an alleged victim.--rb
[snip]
The very idea of little Irma Grese beating people to death with her
cellophane
whip is a joke.
Ah, yes, the "cellophane" whip. But Olga Lengyel simply called it a whip
and noted that Grese "made liberal use" of it and that the prisoners'
"shrieks of pain" and "spurts of blood made her smile." (Lengyel, _Fiv
Chimneys_, pp.103-104.) And Grese also beat her with pistol and fists as
well:
COMMENT: Olga Lengyel is a liar, plain and simple. And this is not all she lied about.--rb
COMMENT: This sounds like more fabricated, nonsense again, similar to "the angel
of Death" nonsense, which was obviously copied from the Mengele pattern and used
as a form of "artistic license" to paint the most horrifying picture possible. A droll, truthful,
report would not have sold many copies....she had to demonize her guards in a mythological
way.--rb
Did you carry a stick at Auschwitz? -- Yes, an ordinary walking-stick.
Did you carry a whip at Auschwitz? -- Yes, made out of cellophane in
the weaving factory in the camp. It was a very light whip, but if I
hit somebody with it, it would hurt. After eight days Kommandant
Kramer prohibited whips, but we nevertheless went on using them, I
never carried a rubber truncheon.
Sorry, Blackmore, but she carried a stick and a whip and she admitted
using them to beat internees. Next question?
COMMENT: So? A cellophane whip...ow, Mr. Peebles,,,,,no so hard!
And a stick....so what? I dare say she needed something to protect herself
with...in American prisons they generally have billy clubs, mace, guns....but
little Irma Grese is supposed to walk around unarmed and unprotected in the midst
of thousands of prisoners....don't think so, chum.--rb
Ah, yes, second only to a wet noodle in lethality.
"...With calculated deliberation, she took her revolver from her desk and
advanced toward me. We were a striking , I, close-cropped, clad in rags,
dirty, drenched from the rain, and she with her coiffed hair, her striking
beauty, and her artful makeup. Her impeccably tailored suit showed off her
lovely figure.
COMMENT: Typical Hollywood drama. This sounds so absurd. By the way, Greses
never sported "coiffed hair" at Auschwitz. Another invention among many by your witness.--rb
She didn't? You were there again?!
COMMENT: That was made clear at the Belsen trial, o ignorant one.--rb
Sounds more like female jealousy here.
"'You swine,' she hissed between her teeth. I cringed from the cold barrel
of her revolver as she passed it over my left temple. I felt her hot
breath. 'You're afraid, aren't you?'
COMMENT: Listen to the dialogue again...."You swine, she HISSED between
her teeth. I CRINGED from the COLD BARREL of her revolver......More artistic license,
the descriptions are direct out of a Peter Lorre film......and revolvers were not standard issue
to concentration camp overseers...another lie.--rb
Fabrications just flow from Blackmore's.
COMMENT: The truth hurts sometimes, doesn't it?--rb
[page 256 of _The Belsen Trial_]
You affected heavy top-boots and you liked to walk around with a
revolver strapped on your waist and a whip in your had, did you not?
-- I did not like it.
COMMENT: I repeat--revolvers were not standard issue to German guards.
They were issued 9 mm. Get the original german word for revolver used at the
trial and I will bet 100 to 1 that "revolver" was not the word used. It could not
have been. It was probably translated as "pistole".--rb
[Ahh, but she did it. He had the boots, she had the whip and she had
the revolver, folks, but the poor girl did not like it.]
You thought it very clever to have a whip made in the factory and even
when the Kommandant told you to stop using it you went on, did you
not? -- Yes.
[A resounding YES echos through the halls of justice. The Witness
admits disobeying orders from her comanding officer!]
COMMENT: Yes, a cellophane whip...It might just as well as been made of
jello. Now, are you saying that Ms. Grese deserved the death penalty
for obtaining items with which to defend herself? Sure, you are.--rb
What was this whip really made of? -- Cellophane paper plaited like a
pigtail. It was translucent like white glass.
[The Nazi Grese is proud of this illegal whip.]
The type of whip you would use for a horse? -- Yes.
Then most of these prisoners who said they saw you carrying a riding
whip were not far wrong, were they? -- No, they were not wrong.
[Oops. Who is Blackmore going to believe now?]
COMMENT: I have no problem with this. She should have been issued
with a bigger stick, as far as I am concerned.--rb
Did the other Aufseherinnen have these whips made too? -- No.
[This goes to my point above that Grese was unique in this respect.]
It was just your bright idea? -- Yes.
[She did this thing all by her lonesome.]
In Lager "C" you used to carry a walking-stick, too, and sometimes you
beat people with the whip and sometimes with the stick? -- Yes.
[Another resounding YES!]
<end quotes>
COMMENT: So? What are you trying to prove? That carrying items to defend oneself
is a crime worthy of the death penalty? Foolish man.--rb
COMMENT: Of course, what else could come after the scenes depicted above, but
Irma Grese dispatching people to the rumored "gas chambers"...It is obvious Olga
was hoping for a movie contract bid with those descriptions. Send it on to Spielberg,
it ought to be more humorous than Schindler's list, and that was a riot.--rb
There is nothing humorous about these appalling events.
COMMENTS: They are indeed humorous because they are total fabrications.--rb
What Grese only got from rumor this woman knows about even though
she never saw one either.
Grese was innocent.
Grese was a sadistic torturer who selected prisoners for death in the gas
chambers at Auschwitz.
COMMENT: Because YOU say so.....rb
Because she admitted to it, acted the part and her defense could not
overcome the evidence against her.
COMMENT: She never admitted any such things. Stop putting words into other
people's mouths. There was no evidence against her. None. Zero. Zilch. She
was a martyr.--rb
rblac...@juno.com
> Gord McFee <gmc...@ibm.net> writes:
> >
> > He doesn't need evidence! Blackmore just chooses NOT to believe this
> > witness because it interferes with his denial game. To hell with
> > substantiation and in this case the rule of legal testimony.
>
> That's his game and that is the game all of them play. It's the same
> approach that has them refuse the testimony of *every* witness, unless
> the witness happens to support the denier point of view.
>
> Don't forget, Grese and every other SS person was tortured beyond words
> until they would say anything that the evil Allies wanted. This
> happened both after and during the war.
>
>
> --
> Gord McFee
> I'll write no line before its time
>
>>>>Comment: I will simply state that I am not playing a game. I will state
that none of the defendants at the Belsen Trial were given a fair trial. they
were given the semblance of a fair trial. I never implied that grese was tortured.
Her testimony exonerates her in any event, looking at it today. And the testimony
of those who testified against her is revealed as being contrived and plain old
perjury, to which murder must now be added, as their false testimonies led to the
deaths of many innocent people. When have any of you people ever acknowledged
an obvious truth? Very rare....rb
Mark Van Alstine
> > Gord McFee <gmc...@ibm.net> writes:
>
>
> > >
> > > He doesn't need evidence! Blackmore just chooses NOT to believe this
> > > witness because it interferes with his denial game. To hell with
> > > substantiation and in this case the rule of legal testimony.
> >
> > That's his game and that is the game all of them play. It's the same
> > approach that has them refuse the testimony of *every* witness, unless
> > the witness happens to support the denier point of view.
> >
> > Don't forget, Grese and every other SS person was tortured beyond words
> > until they would say anything that the evil Allies wanted. This
> > happened both after and during the war.
> >
> > --
> > Gord McFee
> > I'll write no line before its time
> >
> >>>>Comment: I will simply state that I am not playing a game. I will state
> that none of the defendants at the Belsen Trial were given a fair trial.
Mr. Belling's tirade of Nazi apologia, once again thwarted by the
historical record, stamps his little feet and howls "NOT FAIR! THE TRIAL
WASN'T FAIR!"
And why, according to Mr. Belling, wasn't the trial fair? Because Mr.
Belling says so. How droll. As if the opinion of an anti-Semitic lying
scumbag Nazi apoligist mattered.
[Mr. Belling's infantile ranting snipped]
rblac...@juno.com
mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
SNIP
COMMENT: I took the liberty of snipping your irrelevant propaganda lifted
from the Danuta Czech book save for the example below:
Given, for example, that it took _six_ days between (July 18 to July, 24,
1940) the time SS Major General Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski ordered the
execution of cilivian workers in connection to the escape of Tadeusz
Wiejowski, and when Ho"ss recieved written confirmation of Bach-Zelewski's
order, it would indeed appear that the immediate flogging of prisoners who
were _suspected_ of aiding Tadeusz Wiejowsk escape _was_ done without the
advance approval by "by authorities in Berlin." (cf. Ibid. pp.17,19,24.)
COMMENT: So happy you broought this subject up. The fact is, none of the
people mentioned above were ever executed, as the execution was prohibited
by Berlin, even though Hoess wanted to have them executed.--rb
BTW, I also took the liberty of excising the rest of your comments as they were
irrelevant and insipid.
Gord McFee
rblac...@juno.com wrote:
>
> > Gord McFee <gmc...@ibm.net> writes:
>
> > >
> > > He doesn't need evidence! Blackmore just chooses NOT to believe this
> > > witness because it interferes with his denial game. To hell with
> > > substantiation and in this case the rule of legal testimony.
> >
> > That's his game and that is the game all of them play. It's the same
> > approach that has them refuse the testimony of *every* witness, unless
> > the witness happens to support the denier point of view.
> >
> > Don't forget, Grese and every other SS person was tortured beyond words
> > until they would say anything that the evil Allies wanted. This
> > happened both after and during the war.
> Comment: I will simply state that I am not playing a game. I will state
> that none of the defendants at the Belsen Trial were given a fair trial. they
> were given the semblance of a fair trial.
And on what is this based? Simply because you say so?
I never implied that grese was tortured.
> Her testimony exonerates her in any event, looking at it today. And the testimony
> of those who testified against her is revealed as being contrived and plain old
> perjury, to which murder must now be added, as their false testimonies led to the
> deaths of many innocent people. When have any of you people ever acknowledged
> an obvious truth? Very rare....rb
A cheap shot, Mr. Blackmore. You dismiss evidence with a wave of your
hand, saying, "It is not acceptable because I don't believe it", and
then you ask when *we* have acknowledged an obvious truth? Rings hollow
to me.
Mark Van Alstine
> mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>
> SNIP
>
> COMMENT: I took the liberty of snipping your irrelevant propaganda lifted
> from the Danuta Czech book save for the example below:
Unsuprising, Mr. Belling, as you, after all, have a predilection to
"ignoring" what you cannot refute.
> Given, for example, that it took _six_ days between (July 18 to July, 24,
> 1940) the time SS Major General Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski ordered the
> execution of cilivian workers in connection to the escape of Tadeusz
> Wiejowski, and when Ho"ss recieved written confirmation of Bach-Zelewski's
> order, it would indeed appear that the immediate flogging of prisoners who
> were _suspected_ of aiding Tadeusz Wiejowsk escape _was_ done without the
> advance approval by "by authorities in Berlin." (cf. Ibid. pp.17,19,24.)
>
> COMMENT: So happy you broought this subject up. The fact is, none of the
> people mentioned above were ever executed, as the execution was prohibited
> by Berlin, even though Hoess wanted to have them executed.--rb
Indeed, Mr. Belling, I never claimed otherwise. The point of my
illustration was to show that it took _six_ days for Back-Zelewski's order
to Ho"ss to be confirmed in writing. Interestingly enough, Glu"cks reply
to halt the executions of the civilian workers took _fourteen_ days to
reach Ho"ss. (cf. Czech, _Auscwitz Chronicle_, p.23.)
Yet the prisoners _were_ flogged on July 6 on the _suspicion_ of aiding
Tadeusz Wiejowksi escaped that very same day. Considering the delays as
evidenced by the letters from Bach-Zelewski and Glu"cks, it is obvious
that no authorization for the floggings was given _or_ refused. In fact,
there is no evidence that _permission_ to flog the prisoners was even
_asked_ for.
Further indication that the torture of prisoners was executed without
explicit case-by-case permission from Berlin can be seen in the following:
"August 1940 is marked by increasing terrorization of the prisoners by the
SS. Along with various kinds of harassment used by the SS men and Prisoner
Functionaries, regular camp punishments are introduced by the camp
administration. These are carried on the basis of a writtem punishment by
the SS men for a misdemeanor as soon as it is confirmed by the Commandant
or the Camp Commander. After the regularly imposed flogging and punishment
of being tied to a stake and assignment to a penal company are initiated
in August. At the introduction of these punishments, however, the
prisoners are neither informed of the effective camp order nor instructed
in the offenses against the normal regulations. In addition, the
obligation to run while working is introduced." (cf. Ibis. pp.22-23.)
Of special note is the part about punishments being "carried on the basis
of a writtem punishment by the SS men for a misdemeanor as soon as it is
confirmed by the Commandant or the Camp Commander."
No request for authorization of punishments from Berlin. The matter is
_immediately_ decided by the "Commandant or the Camp Commander."
The exception to this rule, of course, was the execution of "hostages."
According to Ho"ss: "Most of the hostages had been in the camp for quite
some time. Neither they nor the camp administration knew they were
hostages. Suddenly a telegram would arrive from the Gestapo or from
Himmler stating, 'The following prisoners are to be shot or hanged as
hostages.' Compliance with this order had to be reported within a few
hours. The prisoners concerned were taken away from their work areas or
pulled out during roll call and brought to the detention block [Block 11].
Those who had been imprisoned for quite some time knew what this meant; at
least they had an idea of what was in store for them. I the detention
block they were informed of the order to execute them. At first, in 1940
and the early part of 1941, they were shot in the back of the neck. The
bedridden patients in the hospital infirmary [Block 10] were killed by
injection [phenol injection directly into the heart]." (Ho"ss, _Death
Dealer_, p.129.)
Knowing full-well of Mr. Belling's allergic reaction to the mention of
Ho"ss's name (not to mention the historical record), and his inevitable
spastic cries that Ho"ss was tortured into writing his memoirs, the
following is educational in that it confirms what Ho"ss wrote:
"The first execution by shooting takes place in the camp. Those executed
are the 40 Poles Himmler selected from the four lists presented by the
local Stapo in retaliation for the alleged violence and assualt on police
officials in Kattowitz. Himmler orders the execution to be carried out
without the public's knowledge. The list of the condemmed is sent with
instructions of the SS Commander in Chief* on November 1 in the form of an
order through the Head of Sipo and SD in Berlin, Heydrich, to the Superior
SS and Police Commander in Breslau, von dem Bach-Zelewski. The latter
gives an additional order to the head of the Gestapo in Kattowitz, Senior
State Councillor Dr. Emmanuel Scha:fer. Because of the order to carry out
the execution in secret, the site of Auschwitz C.C. is selected. The
condemmed are admitted to Auschwitz on November 22 at 11:45 AM from the
Kripo headquarters in Kattowitz. The execution is performed at 12 0'clock;
it takes 20 minutes and is directed by SS First Lieutenant Karl Fritzsch,
the Camp Commander. SS Second Lieutenant Ta"ger is the commander of the
execution squad, consisting of 20 SS Men from the Auschwitz Death's Head
Guard Company. Two SS Men shot each of the condemned individually."
(Czech, _Auschwitz Chronicle_, p.35; cf. APMO D-AuI-1/5, 6, 8-9, 10-13,
50-56, The Execution of November 22, 1940.)
"*The SS Commander in Chief condemns eight Poles whose names are not given
on the list to life imprisonment in a Class III concentration camp."
(Ibid. p.35fn.)
"168 prisoners are shot at the execution wall in the courtyard of Block
11. They belong to the group of painters, artists, and actors who were
arrested on April 16, 1942, in the Artists' Cafe in Krakow and sent to
Auschwitz on April 24 and 25. In the camp, they were given Nos.
32489-32586 and 33091-33190. The prisoners are taken to the courtyard four
at a time and shot. The Block Senior utters the following sentance: "For
the murder of the head of the Luftwaffe in Krakow, you are condemned to
death." Then they are killed with individual shots from a smal-caliber
weapon. Present at the execution are the Director of the Political
Department, Maximillian Grabner, Protective Custody Commander Hans
Aumeier, and the Labor Deployment Director, Heinrich Schwarz." (Ibid.,
p.171; cf. APMO, Ho"ss Trial, vol. 4, p. 80, Account of Former Prisoner
Tadeusz Wasowicz; D-Aul-3/1/3, Occupancy Register, pp. 410-416; Kret,*
"Penal Company," p.104. [168 executed].)
"* Kret, who is housed at the time on the courtyard side of the bunker,
where the execution takes place, hears the words of the Block Senior, the
conversation of the SS officers, and with a fellow sufferer, counts the
number of shots fired." (cf. Ibid. p.171fn.)
Of course, the above reprisals against hostages was clearly a war crime,
as such actions were strictly forbidden by Article 50 of the Hague
Convention (IV) to which Germany was a signatory. (cf. Reisman, _The Laws
of War_, p.233.)
> BTW, I also took the liberty of excising the rest of your comments
> as they were irrelevant and insipid.
Unsuprising, Mr. Belling, as after all, you being an anti-Semtic lying
scumbag Nazi apologist, have a predilection to "ignoring" what you cannot
refute. Or lie about.
For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semtism, and outright lies,
please visit:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/tutu101.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/lies/whole-truth
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/anyone-out-there-12-14
rblac...@juno.com
And why, according to Mr. Belling, wasn't the trial fair? Because Mr.
Belling says so. How droll. As if the opinion of an anti-Semitic lying
scumbag Nazi apoligist mattered.
>>>>
And why was the trial fair, one might ask? Because Mark V. Anal Stink says so!
rblac...@juno.com
Gord McFee <gmc...@ibm.net> writes:
rblac...@juno.com wrote:
Comment: I will simply state that I am not playing a game. I will state
that none of the defendants at the Belsen Trial were given a fair trial. they
were given the semblance of a fair trial.
And on what is this based? Simply because you say so?
COMMENT: Of course not. it is based upon an educated opinion after I read the
trial proceedings as well as researched the manner in which Germans were
usually treated after capture.--rb
I never implied that grese was tortured.
Her testimony exonerates her in any event, looking at it today. And the testimony
of those who testified against her is revealed as being contrived and plain old
perjury, to which murder must now be added, as their false testimonies led to the
deaths of many innocent people. When have any of you people ever acknowledged
an obvious truth? Very rare....rb
A cheap shot, Mr. Blackmore. You dismiss evidence with a wave of your
hand, saying, "It is not acceptable because I don't believe it", and
then you ask when *we* have acknowledged an obvious truth? Rings hollow
> to me.
COMMENT: In all truth, what "evidence" are you referring to? I would most certainly
admit of such evidence if any were to be found convincing...yet I am not convinced.
Why do you suppose that is? I have read the transcripts and perused other material
pertinent to the trial and the allegations. I have not found any of the evidence you seem
to be referring to. This being the true state of affairs, I do not think it appropriate to remark
that I am simply dismissing evidence "with a wave of my hand". Give me something I can
work with.--rb
Mike Curtis
rblac...@juno.com wrote:
> mcu...@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
> rblac...@juno.com wrote:
>
>
>
> Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
> And your evidence of such is what exactly, Mr. Belling?
>
>
> rblackmore writes:
> COMMENT:
>
> I don't need evidence. I said I don't believe her.
>
> He doesn't need evidence! Blackmore just chooses NOT to believe this
> witness because it interferes with his denial game. To hell with
> substantiation and in this case the rule of legal testimony.
>
>COMMENT: Pot. Kettle. Black. Since when have you ever provided evidence for
>anything except your own ignorance.--rb
>
Then their is no reason to carry on with this discussion.
> It is up to you to provide
> evidence that what she alleged was true.--rb
>
>
> No, we do not. The Judges believed this particular witness or they
> didn't. The judges did believe the presentation and the defense was
> unable to restore their client by impeaching the witness. Your
> opinions do not matter a twig in this discussion. We are already aware
> of your bias and inclinations. What you use to back up your opinion is
> of much more value here that an empty "because I say so" argument.
> A pattern was presented for the accused Grese that was unique to her
> and to the other accused. As a pattern grows and more people testify
> as to what they saw then the picture the defense has to overcome is
> clear. This they were unable to do.
>
>COMMENT: Your judges were simply no better than wild west hanging
>judges who didn't give a rat's ass about examining evidence in this trial.
That must be why they excluded some of what the prosecution presented.
Sure, Blackmore, you just keep digging that hole.
>If they did, the Germans would either have been acquitted or else received
>low prison terms, depending on the case.
11 were acquitted. One received 20 years. Several received 10 years.
And a few received 5 years.
> As it is, your witnesses should have
>been charged with perjury.
You've made no case for this point.
> As they were not, it tells us quite a bit about the
>low standard of evidence required to hang Germans after the war---in this case-
>NONE at all.--rb
>
Huh huh, sure, Blackmore.
>COMMENT: No, it will not work this way. YOU offered to produce the reports,
>and then reiterated the promise when Mike Stein drew it to your attention. Where are the
>reports? More fakes, frauds, lies, and your refusal to provide the evidence proves it,
>otherwise you would have shut me up a long time ago.....You can't, because you know you
>cannot produce what you have promised.--rb
>
He produced it despite the fact he wasn't the one you originally
asked. I don't suppose this makes you feel foolish?
>
> I happen to know that gratuitous beatings of inmates at Auschwitz
> were strictly prohibited. --rb
>
>
> Where yo there, Mr. Belling? Or are you simply _assuming_ that because
> "officially" such mistreatment of prisoners was suppossedly prohibited, it
> didn't happen? How do you explain your "knowing" in light of numerous
> testimonies by Nazis and inmates that such beatings took place and were
> actually quite common?
>
>
> COMMENT: These statements, without factual evidence, are irrelevant and prove nothing.
> Yet, such beatings were indeed prohibited.--rb
>
Keep ignoring all that testimony I key in for you. Well, that's okay,
other folks see it even if you continually ignore it.
>
> The question isn't if the rules "prohibited the beatings, but rather
> if the rule was idle as far as prisoners were concerned.
>
> Grese under prosecution questioning by Col. Backhouse:
>
> [page 256]
>
> Were you allowed to beat people? -- No.
>
> So it was not a question of having orders from your superiors to do
> it. You did this against orders, did you? -- Yes.
>
> [Blackmore should note the above admission.]
>
>COMMENT: I do not need to note it.
It's Grese's testimony and you are wildly impressed with her!
> If she beat people,
She says she did.
> perhaps they deserved it.
Of course, Balckmore is stomping his tiny feet.
>Perhaps she was attacked. perhaps they were indulging in an offensive activity.
>This is no reason to give someone the death penalty. What about those Israeli
>cops who admitted to beating a Palestinian prisoner to death with a baseball
>bat? Have they been charged and convicted? of course not...hyopocrite.--rb
>
Perhaps, maybe, possibly, supposing, and then possibly if only
Blackmore had a brain. But why not end by name calling, Mr. Giwer.
> Were you the only person who beat prisoners against regulations? -- I
> do not know.
>
> Did you ever see anyone else beat prisoners? -- Yes.
>
> [Then she does know that others beat prisoners against regulations.
> Blackmore tries to tell us that this wasn't a fuzzy rule in the camps.
> Is Grese hedging around here?]
>
> Did you sometimes get orders to do so? -- No.
>
> Did you give orders to other Aufseherinnen working under you to beat
> prisoners? -- Yes.
>
> [Here is Grese giving orders that Blackmore continually _used_ to say
> that she could not give. He just said *orders* and did not specify the
> *kind* of orders. The point in this testimony is that she had no
> authority to give orders to beat other prisoners and yet, she did.]
>
>COMMENT: She could not give orders to the SS. Only to other Aufseherinnen.
THEY WERE SS you idiot!
>However, even these orders had their limitations.--rb
>
Sure, Blackmore, sure. Unfortunately the testimony by this SS member
does not seem to make your case for you. Go back to stomping your
little feet.
> Had you the right to give such authorization? -- No.
>
> [Apparently she had no fear of the consequences concerning the
> violation of this rule.]
>
>COMMENT: For beating a thief? She need not fear in that case.--rb
>
I see nothing in the testimony about who was being beaten for what
purpose. Stomp those feet.
> Your witness never names the alleged victim or
> the alleged person who was with her.
>
>Why should this be this required Mr. Belling? Just so that you can toss
>one more stumbling block in the path of truth?
>
>COMMENT: It would not be a stumbing bloc had she at least had a NAME for
>these alleged victims. Her testimony strikes me as being hysterical and completely
>fabricated.--rb
>
The charges did not require names in all cases. Sorry. Stomp those
feet.
>
> Let's see. I wonder how many individuals named the victims they saw
> blow up in the Oklahoma bombing. Names, Blackmore, were not required
> by the charges unless actual names were mentioned.
>
>COMMENT: What a foolish argument. We all know their identities.
You do! Name 10. I don't even know all the names of people working in
the company I work in.
> In murder trials
>it is customary to produce an identity of an alleged victim.--rb
>
Mass murder is not a typical murder trial. People were not identified
before they were gassed. They were inspected for the abiltiy to
perform slave labor.
> [snip]
>
> The very idea of little Irma Grese beating people to death with her
>cellophane
> whip is a joke.
>
>Ah, yes, the "cellophane" whip. But Olga Lengyel simply called it a whip
>and noted that Grese "made liberal use" of it and that the prisoners'
>"shrieks of pain" and "spurts of blood made her smile." (Lengyel, _Fiv
>Chimneys_, pp.103-104.) And Grese also beat her with pistol and fists as
>well:
>
>COMMENT: Olga Lengyel is a liar, plain and simple. And this is not all she lied about.--rb
>
Stomp those feet!!!
[snipped more foot stomping]
>
> Did you carry a stick at Auschwitz? -- Yes, an ordinary walking-stick.
>
> Did you carry a whip at Auschwitz? -- Yes, made out of cellophane in
> the weaving factory in the camp. It was a very light whip, but if I
> hit somebody with it, it would hurt. After eight days Kommandant
> Kramer prohibited whips, but we nevertheless went on using them, I
> never carried a rubber truncheon.
>
> Sorry, Blackmore, but she carried a stick and a whip and she admitted
> using them to beat internees. Next question?
>
>COMMENT: So? A cellophane whip...ow, Mr. Peebles,,,,,no so hard!
Cellophane will cut you, Blackmore.
>And a stick....so what?
Note the hand waving folks.
> I dare say she needed something to protect herself
>with...in American prisons they generally have billy clubs, mace, guns....but
>little Irma Grese is supposed to walk around unarmed and unprotected in the midst
>of thousands of prisoners....don't think so, chum.--rb
Please don't get coy with me.
I'm bored so snip.
Mike Curtis
rblac...@juno.com wrote:
I do not see Mr. Van Alstine saying the trial was fair here. Rather,
he is commenting on your high and mighty claim that it wasn't. It is
very clear that you need to explain, using proper sources, why the
trial was unfair. Because you think it is, is not valid. Those who
associate themselves with the guilty rarely think their friends
receive fair trials. If you had actually read the book you used to
quote, then you would have a better picture of how this trial was
handled. Blackmore has never inquired as to why a book containing
trial records was released in 1949. Since it is a primary source, it
is good to know why. There was such controversy that the book was
released in hopes that its contents would enlighten the public.
From _The Final Solution_ by Gerald Reitlinger, A.S. Barnes & Company,
A Perpetua Book, 1961 says on page 469-70:
"This, the first British war-trial was criticised from every quarter.
The acquittals made anti-British propaganda in the countries that had
been liberated by Russia. The verdicts, which had been reached under
conditons so different from those under which British justice normally
functions, caused grave misgivings in legal circles at home. In their
hour of liberation the victims of Belsen could not have realised that
there was no system of human justice, adapted to such immense
collective crimes, and that perhaps there never would be.
On December 22nd, 1951, five of the Belsen female guards and Kapos,
who had received ten-year sentences for their part in beating and
tormenting the half-dead and the living skeletons in their care, were
suddenly released from Werl prison. . . . ."
Yale F. Edeiken
> mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) responded to "blackmore's" apology
for the SS:
>
> > his would probably account for the fact why Himmler gave
> > Konrad Morgen full authority to investigate Hoess....
> Nope. Himmler (inexplicably) gave Morgen carte blanc (until it become
> embarassing) to investigate _corruption_ in the camps.
It's hardly inexplicable. Koch and the others were stealing money that,
otherwise, Himmler could have stolen himself.
"Follow the money." Deep Throat, 1973
> For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
> Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semitism, and outright lies,
> please visit:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/tutu101.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/lies/whole-truth
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/anyone-out-there
-12-14
--YFE
Troy Varange
Perhaps you can't understand Blackmore's posts because you
are ignorant on the respective subjects?
--
Cheers!
Mark Van Alstine
> > mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
> > In article <5ag90a$2...@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblac...@juno.com wrote:
> >
>
> SNIP
>
> COMMENT: You should not have brought the subject of Bach-Zelewski
> up. It has opened a can of worms for you. The fact is that Hoess apparently
> went outside of the perimeters of what was allowed for the administration of
> the camp, and was upbraded for it. The very fact that Bach-Zelewski upheld
> the death sentence
Er, Bach-Zelewski didn't "uphold" the death sentance. He _ordered_ it.
> yet was OVERTURNED by direct order from Berlin is quite
> revealing, in my opinion.
I'm sure it is. But then they were _civilians_, not prisoners. But then,
you always were impressed by Nazis. To the point of trying to pick up a
few, evidently....
> It was not so easy to invoke the death penalty in the camps.
It was _gratuitously_ easy. Just plop a bunch of convalescents down in the
dirt and beat them to death with rods....
> Even the order of a Camp Commander and a high ranking SS General wouldn't
> suffice.
Tell that to the convalescents beaten to death with rods. Or the Russian
POWs shot and beaten to death with shovels and picks while they worked.
> This being the case, I wonder how much went on in these camps during the war
> years that went contrary to the rules and unnoticed by the central
> administration in Berlin? Quite a bit, I imagine. T
Gratuitous beatings? Summary executions? Indeed quite a bit. It was
institutionalized by Eicke.
> his would probably account for the fact why Himmler gave
> Konrad Morgen full authority to investigate Hoess....
Nope. Himmler (inexplicably) gave Morgen carte blanc (until it become
embarassing) to investigate _corruption_ in the camps.
> Are we leading up to something here.....indeed.
You're going to announce a new Nazi hero to worship? Who is it _this_ time?
> Of course you will now start to whine and holler...that is all quite
predictable....yet this case indicates there is much more to this incident
than immediately meets the eye.--rb
No, it simply means (predictably) that your "imagination" is running away
with your tongue again.
For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semitism, and outright lies,
Gord McFee
Troy Varange wrote:
>
> Perhaps you can't understand Blackmore's posts because you
> are ignorant on the respective subjects?
Perhaps you're just spewing troll-bait, Skippy? :-)
Derek Bell
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rblac...@juno.com writes:
>And why was the trial fair, one might ask? Because Mark V. Anal Stink says so!
Losing again, eh?
Derek
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--
Derek Bell db...@maths.tcd.ie | "Donuts - is there _anything_
WWW: http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dbell/index.html| they can't do?"
PGPkey: http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dbell/key.asc| - Homer Simpson
Gord McFee
rblac...@juno.com wrote:
>
> Gord McFee <gmc...@ibm.net> writes:
> rblac...@juno.com wrote:
>
>
> Comment: I will simply state that I am not playing a game. I will state
> that none of the defendants at the Belsen Trial were given a fair trial. they
> were given the semblance of a fair trial.
>
> And on what is this based? Simply because you say so?
>
> COMMENT: Of course not. it is based upon an educated opinion after I read the
> trial proceedings as well as researched the manner in which Germans were
> usually treated after capture.--rb
Let's look at both of those elements. "..after I read the trial
proceedings". I note that you have not dealt with a great deal of
testimony from that trial posted verbatim by Mike Curtis. You have
simply dismissed it, in one case saying, "I simply don't believe it" and
in another "Because I say so". That hardly qualifies as an "educated
opinion" arrived at after doing anything, but rather sounds more like
the denier's trick of distorting until the absolute truth is posted for
everyone to see and then dismiss it with a wave of the hand.
"...researched the manner in which Germans were usually treated after
capture". Your research in this respect has once again been nothing
more than you saying that they were always tortured and beaten and
forced into confessions. You have supplied not a shred of evidence that
that was "usually" the case. In fact, when testimony by both Hoess and
Eichmann is supplied that indicates they at least were not treated that
way, you once again simply dismiss it because it doesn't agree with your
position. Hardly research.
[deleted]
> A cheap shot, Mr. Blackmore. You dismiss evidence with a wave of your
> hand, saying, "It is not acceptable because I don't believe it", and
> then you ask when *we* have acknowledged an obvious truth? Rings hollow
> > to me.
>
> COMMENT: In all truth, what "evidence" are you referring to? I would most certainly
> admit of such evidence if any were to be found convincing...yet I am not convinced.
> Why do you suppose that is? I have read the transcripts and perused other material
> pertinent to the trial and the allegations. I have not found any of the evidence you seem
> to be referring to. This being the true state of affairs, I do not think it appropriate to remark
> that I am simply dismissing evidence "with a wave of my hand". Give me something I can
> work with.--rb
You have been given lots of information to deal with. You simply refuse
to deal with it.
Mark Van Alstine
> > mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) responded to "blackmore's" apology
> for the SS:
> >
> > > his would probably account for the fact why Himmler gave
> > > Konrad Morgen full authority to investigate Hoess....
>
> > Nope. Himmler (inexplicably) gave Morgen carte blanc (until it become
> > embarassing) to investigate _corruption_ in the camps.
>
> It's hardly inexplicable. Koch and the others were stealing
money that,
> otherwise, Himmler could have stolen himself.
>
> "Follow the money." Deep Throat, 1973
Oh. Well, there _is_ that....
Doc Marten
On 4 Jan 1997 13:58:32 -0800, var...@crl.com (Troy Varange) wrote in
alt.revisionism:
>Perhaps you can't understand Blackmore's posts because you
>are ignorant on the respective subjects?
Of course he can understand it. It is a long identified for of
kike mendacity.
"But a Jew could never be parted from his opinions.....The more I
argued with them the more I came to know their dialectic. First they
counted on the stupidity of their adversary, and then, when there was
no other way out, they themselves simply played stupid.
As Adolph identified, he is simply playing stupid. The method
is at times referred as playing coy. It is only taken seriously by
other kikes.
rblac...@juno.com
> mcu...@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
He produced it despite the fact he wasn't the one you originally
asked. I don't suppose this makes you feel foolish?
COMMENT: Not in the least. I look like Fermi compared to your posts.--rb
I happen to know that gratuitous beatings of inmates at Auschwitz
were strictly prohibited. --rb
>
> > COMMENT: These statements, without factual evidence, are irrelevant and prove nothing.
> > Yet, such beatings were indeed prohibited.--rb
> >
>
> Keep ignoring all that testimony I key in for you. Well, that's okay,
> other folks see it even if you continually ignore it.
COMMENT: the testimony was contrived and vengeful fantasy--nothing more.-rb
> Perhaps, maybe, possibly, supposing, and then possibly if only
> Blackmore had a brain. But why not end by name calling, Mr. Giwer.
COMMENT: As YOU just did, Mr. Curtis?--rb
>
> >
> >COMMENT: She could not give orders to the SS. Only to other Aufseherinnen.
>
> THEY WERE SS you idiot!
COMMENT: Name calling again, Mr. Curtis. You're losing it. Let me clarify for you:
She was NOT permitted to give orders to MALE SS staff members.--rb
> >COMMENT: For beating a thief? She need not fear in that case.--rb
> >
>
> I see nothing in the testimony about who was being beaten for what
> purpose. Stomp those feet.
COMMENT: Grese testified that she beat prisoners for stealing and refusing to
maintain order. It is your little toes which are stomping.--rb
Your witness never names the alleged victim or
the alleged person who was with her.
Why should this be this required Mr. Belling? Just so that you can toss
one more stumbling block in the path of truth?
COMMENT: It would not be a stumbing bloc had she at least had a NAME for
these alleged victims. Her testimony strikes me as being hysterical and completely
fabricated.--rb
The charges did not require names in all cases. Sorry. Stomp those
feet.
COMMENT: Yes, I am to stomp my feet to your music? I don't think so...You are
a tone deaf musician at best. Only in the contrived fantasy world of the Holocaust and
wichcraft trials is it unnecessary to provide evidence of capital crimes.--rb
Let's see. I wonder how many individuals named the victims they saw
blow up in the Oklahoma bombing. Names, Blackmore, were not required
by the charges unless actual names were mentioned.
COMMENT: What a foolish argument. We all know their identities.
You do! Name 10. I don't even know all the names of people working in
the company I work in.
COMMENT: Pick up a newspaper for once in your life. The names of ALL
the victims were listed, as well as presenting their individual photos over national
televison during the memorial service.--rb
In murder trials
it is customary to produce an identity of an alleged victim.--rb
Mass murder is not a typical murder trial. People were not identified
before they were gassed. They were inspected for the abiltiy to
perform slave labor.
COMMENT: Ah! So we need not produce evidence that mass murders were
committed? How foolish you are making yourself appear.--rb
[snip]
The very idea of little Irma Grese beating people to death with her
cellophane
whip is a joke.
Ah, yes, the "cellophane" whip. But Olga Lengyel simply called it a whip
and noted that Grese "made liberal use" of it and that the prisoners'
"shrieks of pain" and "spurts of blood made her smile." (Lengyel, _Fiv
Chimneys_, pp.103-104.) And Grese also beat her with pistol and fists as
well:
COMMENT: Olga Lengyel is a liar, plain and simple. And this is not all she lied about.--rb
Stomp those feet!!!
COMMENT: Expose those lies!!!--rb
[snipped more foot stomping]
Did you carry a stick at Auschwitz? -- Yes, an ordinary walking-stick.
Did you carry a whip at Auschwitz? -- Yes, made out of cellophane in
the weaving factory in the camp. It was a very light whip, but if I
hit somebody with it, it would hurt. After eight days Kommandant
Kramer prohibited whips, but we nevertheless went on using them, I
never carried a rubber truncheon.
Sorry, Blackmore, but she carried a stick and a whip and she admitted
using them to beat internees. Next question?
COMMENT: So? A cellophane whip...ow, Mr. Peebles,,,,,no so hard!
Cellophane will cut you, Blackmore.
And a stick....so what?
Note the hand waving folks.
I dare say she needed something to protect herself
with...in American prisons they generally have billy clubs, mace, guns....but
little Irma Grese is supposed to walk around unarmed and unprotected in the midst
of thousands of prisoners....don't think so, chum.--rb
Please don't get coy with me.
I'm bored so snip.
COMMENT: Got to you again, eh? Is that the stomping of little toes I hear?
Daniel Keren
rblac...@juno.com writes:
# I can only reply that your opinions have no basis in fact, IMO.
# I have read through the testimony at the Belsen trial and I must
# simply call a spade a spade. Most of the accusers come off as
# liars, or exaggerators, at best. The Germans appear to be giving
# truthful testimony.
So you accept the testimonies of Hoessler, Kramer, Dr. Klein etc
about the gas chambers? They were Germans, you know.
# As to the German torture allegations, I believe I have
# posted enough evidence in the past regarding this accusation,
You posted zero evidence that, for instance, one accused SS-men
or women who testified in the Belsen Trial was tortured. You
posted zero evidence that any of the numerous SS-men, who testified
in the trials held by the German legal system, was tortured or
mistreated in any way whatsoever.
Yet, every single one of these people gave a description of the
death camps which contradicts everything our insane "revisionists"
claim. But what did these SS-men know, after all? They only built
the camps and ran them, right?
-Danny Keren.
rblac...@juno.com
Gord McFee <gmc...@ibm.net> writes:
Let's look at both of those elements. "..after I read the trial
proceedings". I note that you have not dealt with a great deal of
testimony from that trial posted verbatim by Mike Curtis. You have
simply dismissed it, in one case saying, "I simply don't believe it" and
in another "Because I say so". That hardly qualifies as an "educated
opinion" arrived at after doing anything, but rather sounds more like
the denier's trick of distorting until the absolute truth is posted for
everyone to see and then dismiss it with a wave of the hand.
"...researched the manner in which Germans were usually treated after
capture". Your research in this respect has once again been nothing
more than you saying that they were always tortured and beaten and
forced into confessions. You have supplied not a shred of evidence that
that was "usually" the case. In fact, when testimony by both Hoess and
Eichmann is supplied that indicates they at least were not treated that
way, you once again simply dismiss it because it doesn't agree with your
position. Hardly research.
[deleted]
A cheap shot, Mr. Blackmore. You dismiss evidence with a wave of your
hand, saying, "It is not acceptable because I don't believe it", and
> > then you ask when *we* have acknowledged an obvious truth? Rings hollow
> > > to me.
COMMENT: It is not acceptable to ME. I have higher standards for evaluating the
facts than other people appear to have.-rb
> You have been given lots of information to deal with. You simply refuse
> to deal with it.
>
>
> --
> Gord McFee
> I'll write no line before its time
>
>>>>
COMMENT: I can only reply that your opinions have no basis in fact, IMO.
I have read through the testimony at the Belsen trial and I must simply call
a spade a spade. Most of the accusers come off as liars, or exaggerators,
at best. The Germans appear to be giving truthful testimony. I say this
simply because I have read through the transcripts and that is how I view
it. It is my opinion and I have never claimed anything more. If you or Mr.
Curtis get different feelings from reading the same text, you are both entitled
to your opinons. I simply happen to disagree with them, and I post my reasons
why I believe the way I do. As to the German torture allegations, I believe I have
posted enough evidence in the past regarding this accusation, and I firmly believe
it to be true. Jewish Blood Libel and German Gas Chamber Libel both appear to be plain
old fashioned HOAXES......
rblac...@juno.com
ya...@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes:
..
Nope. Himmler (inexplicably) gave Morgen carte blanc (until it become
embarassing) to investigate _corruption_ in the camps.
It's hardly inexplicable. Koch and the others were stealing money that,
otherwise, Himmler could have stolen himself.
> --YFE
>
>>>>
COMMENT: Of course your explanation is disingenuous. Himmler was basically
incorrupible when it came to money. But confronting you with the truth is like trying
to teach a cat to bark and a dog to meow. Truth does not appear to be in your nature.
rblac...@juno.com
> mcu...@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
>
SNIP
COMMENT: As a matter of fact, I have indeed read the entire book.
I will not have the insolence to state whether you have read it or not.
However, after reading the entire book, it is my opinion based upon my
evaluation of the evidence and the testimony and the "findings of the
court" that the trial was unfair. Consequently I disagree with Reitlinger
and with Mr. Curtis. I have posted many examples of why I believe the trial
was unfair and I ask any interested parties to either access these posts on
alt revisionism or Deja News, and then attempt to locate the book and read
it for yourselves. After hearing both sides of the argument, I leave it for the
browser to make up their own minds as to the fairness of the trial.--rb
Gord McFee
>
> A cheap shot, Mr. Blackmore. You dismiss evidence with a wave of your
> hand, saying, "It is not acceptable because I don't believe it", and
> > > then you ask when *we* have acknowledged an obvious truth? Rings hollow
> > > > to me.
>
> COMMENT: It is not acceptable to ME. I have higher standards for evaluating the
> facts than other people appear to have.-rb
You have no standards at all, or else you would just once say *why* you
dismiss evidence with a cavalier wave of your hand. When the evidence
is incontrovertible, you simply proclaim that you don't believe it, yet
you never show how and in which way the evidence is wrong in your
opinion. That is a very unprofessional method of analysis and debate.
> > You have been given lots of information to deal with. You simply refuse
> > to deal with it.
> COMMENT: I can only reply that your opinions have no basis in fact, IMO.
> I have read through the testimony at the Belsen trial and I must simply call
> a spade a spade. Most of the accusers come off as liars, or exaggerators,
> at best. The Germans appear to be giving truthful testimony. I say this
> simply because I have read through the transcripts and that is how I view
> it. It is my opinion and I have never claimed anything more. If you or Mr.
> Curtis get different feelings from reading the same text, you are both entitled
> to your opinons. I simply happen to disagree with them, and I post my reasons
> why I believe the way I do. As to the German torture allegations, I believe I have
> posted enough evidence in the past regarding this accusation, and I firmly believe
> it to be true. Jewish Blood Libel and German Gas Chamber Libel both appear to be plain
> old fashioned HOAXES......
Fair enough. "Because you say so" is the basis of your thesis. Thank
you for admitting that you do not even attempt to carry out empirical
research, or engage in honest debate.
Yale F. Edeiken
> Nope. Himmler (inexplicably) gave Morgen carte blanc (until it become
> embarassing) to investigate _corruption_ in the camps.
> It's hardly inexplicable. Koch and the others were stealing money that,
> otherwise, Himmler could have stolen himself.
> COMMENT: Of course your explanation is disingenuous. Himmler was basically
> incorrupible when it came to money. But confronting you with the truth is like
trying
> to teach a cat to bark and a dog to meow. Truth does not appear to be in your
nature.
Our resident nazi apologist pops up again with another distortion of the
truth. Himmler presided over an empire (the SS) which stole money and property
hand over fist; it was largely financed by that method. Moreover, the loot he stole
was often passed out to his cohorts as a reward for services rendered to the SS.
For example, SS men were often given confiscated (i.e. stolen) Jewish businesses
at bargain basement prices. That he personally put none of the spoils in his pocket
is irrelevant; he was objecting to others stealing what he could have stolen himself.
A good analogy can be found in the case of Richard J. Daley the Elder,
mayor of Chicago. Although he presided over an organization where corruption
and bribery were endemic and legendary, the are no indications that he put a
penny in his own pockets (cf. Royko "Boss"). He was, however, vicious and
vindictive against any person who attempted to interfer with that corruption.
Providing evidence of the crimes of the nazis to "blackmore" is like
feeding ipecac to an infant. A vomitous spew results.
--YFE
rblac...@juno.com
your colleagues have lost over and over again so many times that I have lost
count.--rb
Chuck Ferree
Chuck Ferree writes:
Comparing Himmler with Mayor Daly is like comparing AIDS with a tooth
ache. Will you guys try to get a little more real.
Doc Marten wrote:
doc martin, is some other turkey using an alias. Dumbshit too.
>
> On 5 Jan 1997 22:13:05 GMT, ya...@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote in
> alt.revisionism:
>
> >> rblac...@juno.com writes:
> >> ya...@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes:
clips
this is a real stretch from reality, but not unexpected. Dumb and
Dumber!!!
Chuck
Doc Marten
>> rblac...@juno.com writes:
>> ya...@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes:
>
>> Nope. Himmler (inexplicably) gave Morgen carte blanc (until it become
>> embarassing) to investigate _corruption_ in the camps.
>
>> It's hardly inexplicable. Koch and the others were stealing money that,
>> otherwise, Himmler could have stolen himself.
>
>> COMMENT: Of course your explanation is disingenuous. Himmler was basically
>> incorrupible when it came to money. But confronting you with the truth is like
>trying
>> to teach a cat to bark and a dog to meow. Truth does not appear to be in your
>nature.
>
> Our resident nazi apologist pops up again with another distortion of the
>truth. Himmler presided over an empire (the SS) which stole money and property
>hand over fist; it was largely financed by that method. Moreover, the loot he stole
>was often passed out to his cohorts as a reward for services rendered to the SS.
>For example, SS men were often given confiscated (i.e. stolen) Jewish businesses
>at bargain basement prices. That he personally put none of the spoils in his pocket
>is irrelevant; he was objecting to others stealing what he could have stolen himself.
>
> A good analogy can be found in the case of Richard J. Daley the Elder,
>mayor of Chicago. Although he presided over an organization where corruption
>and bribery were endemic and legendary, the are no indications that he put a
>penny in his own pockets (cf. Royko "Boss"). He was, however, vicious and
>vindictive against any person who attempted to interfer with that corruption.
Thank you, Mr. I am the LAW!, for putting Himmler in
perspective. I know it must have hurt.
rblac...@juno.com
dke...@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
rblac...@juno.com writes:
I can only reply that your opinions have no basis in fact, IMO.
I have read through the testimony at the Belsen trial and I must
simply call a spade a spade. Most of the accusers come off as
liars, or exaggerators, at best. The Germans appear to be giving
truthful testimony.
about the gas chambers? They were Germans, you know.
posted enough evidence in the past regarding this accusation,
or women who testified in the Belsen Trial was tortured. You
posted zero evidence that any of the numerous SS-men, who testified
in the trials held by the German legal system, was tortured or
mistreated in any way whatsoever.
I believe I have posted evidence in the past that Kramer was mistreated and
tortured, and that his original detailed statement denied the existence of gas chambers.
As I do not regard the gas chambers as a reality at this point, anything they may have
said to corroborate it after their "interrogation" is simply irrelevant--as irrelevant as anything
Jews had to say about Jewish ritual murder.
Yet, every single one of these people gave a description of the
death camps which contradicts everything our insane "revisionists"
claim. But what did these SS-men know, after all? They only built
the camps and ran them, right?
And their descriptions simply strike me as a rehash of the witches sabbat.
The fraudulent details were already known, and the object of the occupation
forces was to see to it that they admitted to their reality. What insane revisionists
do you refer to? Do you consider Primo Levi sane?
rblac...@juno.com
# I have read through the testimony at the Belsen trial and I must
# simply call a spade a spade. Most of the accusers come off as
# liars, or exaggerators, at best. The Germans appear to be giving
# truthful testimony.
So you accept the testimonies of Hoessler, Kramer, Dr. Klein etc
about the gas chambers? They were Germans, you know.
# posted enough evidence in the past regarding this accusation,
Mad Max
On Sun, 05 Jan 1997 21:24:28 +0000, Chuck Ferree <chu...@rio.com>
wrote in alt.revisionism:
>Chuck Ferree writes:
>
>Comparing Himmler with Mayor Daly is like comparing AIDS with a tooth
>ache. Will you guys try to get a little more real.
Tell it to Mister "I am the LAW!". Tell the foul kike-mouth to
shut up.
rblac...@juno.com
ya...@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes:
Providing evidence of the crimes of the nazis to "blackmore" is like
feeding ipecac to an infant. A vomitous spew results.
COMMENT: And you appear to have diarrhea of the mouth. At any rate,
Himmler WAS incorruptible, much as Robespierre fashioned himslef to be,
and I can only retort that it was the Naizs who
accused the Jews of fleecing others and acquiring their property under
questionable pretenses. If you seek documentary proof, run to Nikook
Central and look it up. Perhaps they will provide a cavity filled
with information for you to begin poking your nose into.--rb
Mad Max
> Providing evidence of the crimes of the nazis to "blackmore" is like
>feeding ipecac to an infant. A vomitous spew results.
Are you still into this form of child abuse or have you been
caugt at it too many times?
william c anderson
rblac...@juno.com wrote:
: I have read through the testimony at the Belsen trial and I must simply call
: a spade a spade. Most of the accusers come off as liars, or exaggerators,
: at best. The Germans appear to be giving truthful testimony. I say this
: simply because I have read through the transcripts and that is how I view
: it. It is my opinion and I have never claimed anything more. If you or Mr.
: Curtis get different feelings from reading the same text, you are both entitled
: to your opinons.
Of course, Mr. Belling is free to proceed by whatever method he deems
best, but most historians would find this process of reading a text
and judging it by the "feelings" one gets to be more than slightly
dubious.
Bill
rblac...@juno.com
> Gord McFee <gmc...@ibm.net> writes:
....
>
> Fair enough. "Because you say so" is the basis of your thesis. Thank
> you for admitting that you do not even attempt to carry out empirical
> research, or engage in honest debate.
COMMENT: That is, in fact what I just wrote...I examine the evidence,
and then render an opinion on all the available facts and testimony
according to my reason. Most of the Germans were convicted on the basis
of no concrete evidence, consequently I have an authority to refer to--the
kangaroo court itself.--rb
Mike Curtis
rblac...@juno.com wrote:
>> mcu...@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
[snipped -- yawn] Oh, handlers, hey handlers! This guy really needs
help.
>
>> > COMMENT: These statements, without factual evidence, are irrelevant and prove nothing.
>> > Yet, such beatings were indeed prohibited.--rb
>> >
>>
>> Keep ignoring all that testimony I key in for you. Well, that's okay,
>> other folks see it even if you continually ignore it.
>
>COMMENT: the testimony was contrived and vengeful fantasy--nothing more.-rb
>
This rich. How was this testimony contrived? This dive right into
fantasy land and lets here your unsubstantiated fictional account on
this one while we are at it.
>
>> Perhaps, maybe, possibly, supposing, and then possibly if only
>> Blackmore had a brain. But why not end by name calling, Mr. Giwer.
>
>COMMENT: As YOU just did, Mr. Curtis?--rb
Yup, I give up on you. You have lost all semblance of rational
thought. Anyway, Blackmore is brainless, I haven't a clue who you are.
Maybe this is persona flaw that goes with the nym.
>> >COMMENT: She could not give orders to the SS. Only to other Aufseherinnen.
>>
>> THEY WERE SS you idiot!
>
>COMMENT: Name calling again, Mr. Curtis. You're losing it. Let me clarify for you:
>She was NOT permitted to give orders to MALE SS staff members.--rb
>
Then why did that guard shoot that prisoner after a brief discussion
with her? There seems to be a lot that wasn't permitted on paper.
There seems to be much more that was tolerated. And yes I lost my
temper. Someone who has the idiocy to write "She could not give orders
to the SS. Only to other Aufseherinnen" and pretends to be a careful
researcher is not only a liar but an idiot. But then was extremely ill
when I wrote that. I'm not as ill now. This time, I'm going to stand
by it. I very rarely get personal, but if Blackmore is going to be so
blatent about it, I'd be a fool not to call Blackmore on it.
>
>> >COMMENT: For beating a thief? She need not fear in that case.--rb
>> >
>>
>> I see nothing in the testimony about who was being beaten for what
>> purpose. Stomp those feet.
>
>COMMENT: Grese testified that she beat prisoners for stealing and refusing to
>maintain order. It is your little toes which are stomping.--rb
>
I see. Why don't you believe all her other testimony? And why isn't
this part of the testimony "contrived?" I see, you select the
testimony you agree with and deselect that which troubles your bias.
Why is Blackmore so damn obvious about it? Oh, handlers?
[snip - yawn]
>
> Let's see. I wonder how many individuals named the victims they saw
> blow up in the Oklahoma bombing. Names, Blackmore, were not required
> by the charges unless actual names were mentioned.
>
> COMMENT: What a foolish argument. We all know their identities.
>
> You do! Name 10. I don't even know all the names of people working in
> the company I work in.
>
>COMMENT: Pick up a newspaper for once in your life. The names of ALL
>the victims were listed, as well as presenting their individual photos over national
>televison during the memorial service.--rb
>
Gee, were lists of all the internees at Auschwitz ever provided? Were
lists of all the internees at Bergen-Belsen provided. I thought you
knew the names Blackmore? Hypothetically having you testify as to who
these bombers murdered would be useless. You wouldn't know any of the
names.
> In murder trials
>it is customary to produce an identity of an alleged victim.--rb
>
>
> Mass murder is not a typical murder trial. People were not identified
> before they were gassed. They were inspected for the abiltiy to
> perform slave labor.
>
>COMMENT: Ah! So we need not produce evidence that mass murders were
>committed? How foolish you are making yourself appear.--rb
>
Read the charges in the Belsen trial. Nameless murders were testified
to. Admission was made that those gassed were not recorded.
> [snip]
>
> The very idea of little Irma Grese beating people to death with her
>cellophane
> whip is a joke.
>
>Ah, yes, the "cellophane" whip. But Olga Lengyel simply called it a whip
We are working with the trial testimony that you ignore. I don't much
care about Olga Lengyel at this point for I haven't the book. I do
have what Grese admitted to. She admitted that it was like a horse
whip.
>COMMENT: Got to you again, eh? Is that the stomping of little toes I hear?
You need to get ahold of your handlers, Blackmore.
Mike Curtis
Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?
European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)
Yale F. Edeiken
> rblac...@juno.com who never met a nazi he didn't like writes:
> ya...@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes:
>
>
> feeding ipecac to an infant. A vomitous spew results.
> Himmler WAS incorruptible
He was a thief.
--YFE
Gord McFee
rblac...@juno.com wrote:
>
> dke...@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
[deleted]
> You posted zero evidence that, for instance, one accused SS-men
> or women who testified in the Belsen Trial was tortured. You
> posted zero evidence that any of the numerous SS-men, who testified
> in the trials held by the German legal system, was tortured or
> mistreated in any way whatsoever.
>
> I believe I have posted evidence in the past that Kramer was mistreated and
> tortured, and that his original detailed statement denied the existence of gas chambers.
> As I do not regard the gas chambers as a reality at this point, anything they may have
> said to corroborate it after their "interrogation" is simply irrelevant--as irrelevant as anything
> Jews had to say about Jewish ritual murder.
Mr. Blackmore, this is a bit much. You can't dismiss evidence on the
sole ground that you disagree with it. Please grow up.
Richard Schultz
rblac...@juno.com wrote:
: Most of the Germans were convicted on the basis of no concrete
: evidence, consequently I have an authority to refer to--the
: kangaroo court itself.--rb
Does this include the Germans convicted at the Einsatzgruppen trial?
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry tel: 972-3-531-8065
Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel fax: 972-3-535-1250
-----
"I seem to smell a peculiar and a fishlike smell."
John Morris
In <5asnb5$b...@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>, sch...@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard
Schultz) wrote:
>rblac...@juno.com wrote:
>
>: Most of the Germans were convicted on the basis of no concrete
>: evidence, consequently I have an authority to refer to--the
>: kangaroo court itself.--rb
>
>Does this include the Germans convicted at the Einsatzgruppen trial?
While we're at it, does this include the convictions of members of
Order Police Battalion 101 at Hamburg? The Treblinka trials at
Dusseldorf? Were those "kangaroo courts?"
--
John Morris <John....@UAlberta.CA>
at University of Alberta <Scripture veteris capiunt exempla futuri>
--
The Nizkor Project | http://www.nizkor.org/
rblac...@juno.com
> sch...@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) writes:
> -----
> "I seem to smell a peculiar and a fishlike smell."
COMMENT: That must be emanating from the abode of
Moses Lump......
As to the Einsatzgruppen......many of their reports were exaggerated.
Yet, it was up to German courts to try them for any criminal conduct--not
the allies.
rblac...@juno.com
Maidanek trials in Duesseldorf?
Mark Van Alstine
> dke...@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
> rblac...@juno.com writes:
>
> # I can only reply that your opinions have no basis in fact, IMO.
> # I have read through the testimony at the Belsen trial and I must
> # simply call a spade a spade. Most of the accusers come off as
> # liars, or exaggerators, at best. The Germans appear to be giving
> # truthful testimony.
>
> So you accept the testimonies of Hoessler, Kramer, Dr. Klein etc
> about the gas chambers? They were Germans, you know.
>
> # As to the German torture allegations, I believe I have
> # posted enough evidence in the past regarding this accusation,
>
> You posted zero evidence that, for instance, one accused SS-men
> or women who testified in the Belsen Trial was tortured. You
> posted zero evidence that any of the numerous SS-men, who testified
> in the trials held by the German legal system, was tortured or
> mistreated in any way whatsoever.
>
>
> I believe I have posted evidence in the past that Kramer was mistreated and
> tortured,
Nope.
> ...and that his original detailed statement denied the existence of gas
chambers.
Nope.
> As I do not regard the gas chambers as a reality at this point, anything they
> may have said to corroborate it after their "interrogation" is simply
> irrelevant--as irrelevant as anything Jews had to say about Jewish ritual
> murder.
Nope.
[snip]
Now, If Mr. Belling wishes to discuss _why_ I consider his puerile claims
worthy of nothing but the breifest dismissals, I suggest he:
1. Provide credible and authorative references to substantive evidence
that Kramer was "mistreated and tortured" into confessing.
2. Provide credible and authotative references to substantive evididence
that Kramer denied the existance of homicadal gas chambers at Auchwitz
II-Birkenau.
3. See a mental health professional in regard to his delusional state of mind.
For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semitism, and outright lies,
please visit:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.0996
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1096
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1196
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/blackmore.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/tutu101.1296
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/lies/whole-truth
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph/1996/anyone-out-there-12-14
Mark
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts."
-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Curtis
Gord McFee <gmc...@ibm.net> wrote:
>rblac...@juno.com wrote:
>>
>> dke...@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
>
>[deleted]
>
>> You posted zero evidence that, for instance, one accused SS-men
>> or women who testified in the Belsen Trial was tortured. You
>> posted zero evidence that any of the numerous SS-men, who testified
>> in the trials held by the German legal system, was tortured or
>> mistreated in any way whatsoever.
>>
>> I believe I have posted evidence in the past that Kramer was mistreated and
>> tortured, and that his original detailed statement denied the existence of gas chambers.
>> As I do not regard the gas chambers as a reality at this point, anything they may have
>> said to corroborate it after their "interrogation" is simply irrelevant--as irrelevant as anything
>> Jews had to say about Jewish ritual murder.
>
>Mr. Blackmore, this is a bit much. You can't dismiss evidence on the
>sole ground that you disagree with it. Please grow up.
>
Sure he can, Gord! He's been doing this for two months now. Don't you
feel all that air disturbance from the waving of _both_ hands?
Mike Curtis
rblac...@juno.com wrote:
You haven't honestly dealt with the Belsen trial yet. I don't think it
is time to change yet.
Daniel Keren
rblac...@juno.com writes:
# As to the Einsatzgruppen......many of their reports were
# exaggerated. Yet, it was up to German courts to try them
# for any criminal conduct--not the allies.
I've asked the following quite a few times, and never got
any response from a "revisionist scholar":
Why would the einsatzgruppen leaders (like Jager) intentionally
inflate the number of Jewish women and children their units
murdered? Only if those in charge of them wanted them to kill
as many Jewish women and children as possible, right? And what
does that prove?
-Danny Keren.
Doc Tavish
Troy Varange wrote:
>
> Perhaps you can't understand Blackmore's posts because you
> are ignorant on the respective subjects?
>
> --
> Cheers!
The ignorant couldn't fathom genius even if it were to come up and bite
them on the ass!
Doc Tavish
Richard Schultz
Daniel Keren (dke...@world.std.com) wrote:
: rblac...@juno.com writes:
Which is why I've always considered the Einsatzgruppen trials to be
the smoking gun that the deniers can't wish away. No "eyewitness
testimony." And no denials on the part of the defendants that they
committed the crimes of which they were accused. Greg Raven's refusal
to deal with the topic on one of his periodic ventures into the
solar system probably tells you why he is so insistent on including
gas chambers as a necessary component of any Nazi plan for the
destruction of the Jews -- because the Einsatzgruppen reports prove
that there was such a plan.
Note also that Mr. Bellinger gives no reason for us to believe that
the German courts should have had any jurisdiction over crimes
committed in the Soviet Union.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry tel: 972-3-531-8065
Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel fax: 972-3-535-1250
-----
"I've lost my harmonica, Albert."
Mad Max
On 6 Jan 1997 23:34:27 GMT, ya...@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote in
alt.revisionism:
>> rblac...@juno.com who never met a nazi he didn't like writes:
"He was like Mayer Daley." -- YFE
Gord McFee
Still got that ass fetish, have you "Doc"?
Richard Schultz
Yale F. Edeiken (ya...@enter.net) wrote:
: > The Criminal Giwer forges again:
: > "He was like Mayer Daley." -- YFE
: You are, as usual a filthy liar. No such statement as you place in
: quotation marks was ever made.
I think he was talking about Mayer Daley, the Jewish cousin ("Mayer the
Buyer") of Mayor Daley.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry tel: 972-3-531-8065
Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel fax: 972-3-535-1250
-----
"an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"
rblac...@juno.com
> mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
Now, If Mr. Belling wishes to discuss _why_ I consider his puerile claims
worthy of nothing but the breifest dismissals, I suggest he:
1. Provide credible and authorative references to substantive evidence
that Kramer was "mistreated and tortured" into confessing.
2. Provide credible and authotative references to substantive evididence
that Kramer denied the existance of homicadal gas chambers at Auchwitz
II-Birkenau.
3. See a mental health professional in regard to his delusional state of mind.
For those interested in proof of Mr. Belling's increasingly irrelevant
Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty, anti-Semitism, and outright lies,
please visit:
COMMENT: If I ever decide to see a mental health professional about the state
of my mind, I will be sure to avoid the one you are seeing...he/she is only making
you worse.--rb
rblac...@juno.com
> ya...@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes:
> > rblac...@juno.com who never met a nazi he didn't like writes:
> > ya...@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes:
> >
> >
> > Providing evidence of the crimes of the nazis to "blackmore" is like
> > feeding ipecac to an infant. A vomitous spew results.
>
> > COMMENT: And you appear to have diarrhea of the mouth. At any rate,
> > Himmler WAS incorruptible
>
> He was a thief.
>
> --YFE
>
>>>>
rblac...@juno.com
I might urge you to be a bit more cautious when replying for "most historians".
"Historians" were not the judges who sentenced people to death at the Belsen
Trials.--rb
rblac...@juno.com
> kle...@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) writes:
> On 7 Jan 1997 10:50:03 GMT, rblac...@juno.com wrote:
>
>
> >As to the Einsatzgruppen......many of their reports were exaggerated.
> >Yet, it was up to German courts to try them for any criminal conduct--not
> >the allies.
>
>
> Because _you_ say so, Mr. Bellinger? Since you have provided no
> proof of that and thoroughly lost any credibility the last time
> you posted this particular foolishness I would have thought you
> would have steered away from this one.
>
> Tell you what, how you start by providing a scintilla of proof
> that the reports were exaggerated. That's documented proof, Mr.
> Bellinger - not your opinions, not your beliefs - proof.
> >
>
>
>>>>
COMMENT: ok. In time.
rblac...@juno.com
> > >> COMMENT: And you appear to have diarrhea of the mouth. At any rate,
> > >> Himmler WAS incorruptible
>
> > > He was a thief.
>
>
> You are, as usual a filthy liar. No such statement as you place in
> quotation marks was ever made.
>
>
>>>>
You mean he was anti-Yippie?
John Morris
>> John....@UAlberta.CA (John Morris) writes:
>> In <5asnb5$b...@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>, sch...@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard
>> Schultz) wrote:
>> >rblac...@juno.com wrote:
>> >: Most of the Germans were convicted on the basis of no concrete
>> >: evidence, consequently I have an authority to refer to--the
>> >: kangaroo court itself.--rb
>> >Does this include the Germans convicted at the Einsatzgruppen trial?
>>
>> While we're at it, does this include the convictions of members of
>> Order Police Battalion 101 at Hamburg? The Treblinka trials at
>> Dusseldorf? Were those "kangaroo courts?"
>COMMENT: I would need to research those cases. What about the
>Maidanek trials in Duesseldorf?
Let me get you started. Charges against members the Order Police
Reserve Police Battalion 101 were investigated by the Zentral Stelle
der Landesjustizverwaltungen in Ludwigsberg in 1962. Eleven
convictions were obtained against officers and other members of the
Battalion by the Office of the State Prosecutor in Hamburg. The
Hamburg court established that, as a judicial minimum, the Battalion
had been responsible for the shooting deaths of 38,000 Polish Jews and
the deportation of a further 45,200 to Treblinka.
On appeal, four of the convictions were upheld. The remaining cases
were dropped by the Prosecutor because the appeals court would not
impose sentences in any but two of the cases upheld. The court did not
wish to be criticized for applying ex post facto laws. Nevertheless,
the facts of the case were not in dispute.
The testimonies and depositions of members of the Battalion form the
basis of Christopher Browning's _Ordinary Men_.
On September 3, 1965, the Federal Court of Assizes at Duesseldorf, in
convicting Kurt Franz and nine others of murders committed at
Treblinka, accepted that, as a judicial minimum, 700,000 Jews had been
murdered at Treblinka. The convictions were based largely upon the
testimony of the defendants themselves and upon the expert research of
Helmut Krausnick of the Institut fuer Zeitgeschicte. Kurt Franz' photo
album of the camp did not exactly help his case.
No death sentences were imposed in either case because the Federal
Republic had previously abolished the death penalty.
At first blush, do these sound like "kangaroo" courts?
Yale F. Edeiken
> rblac...@juno.com writes:
> > sch...@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) writes:
> > Note also that Mr. Bellinger gives no reason for us to believe that
> > the German courts should have had any jurisdiction over crimes
> > committed in the Soviet Union.
Soviet Union...
> it was Judge Musmanno who sat in judgment of the accused Germans in the
Einsatzgruppen
> trials...He was an American.--rb
Musmanno sat on the Pennsylvania Supreme Court; his title was
"Justice."
--YFE
Mike Curtis
lib...@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:
>rblac...@juno.com wrote:
>
>: I have read through the testimony at the Belsen trial and I must simply call
>: a spade a spade. Most of the accusers come off as liars, or exaggerators,
>: at best. The Germans appear to be giving truthful testimony. I say this
>: simply because I have read through the transcripts and that is how I view
>: it. It is my opinion and I have never claimed anything more. If you or Mr.
>: Curtis get different feelings from reading the same text, you are both entitled
>: to your opinons.
>
>Of course, Mr. Belling is free to proceed by whatever method he deems
>best, but most historians would find this process of reading a text
>and judging it by the "feelings" one gets to be more than slightly
>dubious.
>
And laughable. When such "feelings" arise, a good historian starts to
research deeper to discover why he has this feeling and tires to
substantiate it. Mr. Bellinger never does this, but prefers to think
that his opinions mean something all by themselves. The feelings of a
bookseller will hardly cause a sniffle in the cold of historical
studies.
Mike
Fafner13
:>Don't forget Doc Keren...
It's Dr. Keren. Unlike the two losers I referred to above, Dr. Keren has
earned the right to be called Dr.
--
Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time
Comment: He has also earned the right to be called other things.
Gord McFee
Fafner13 wrote:
>
> :>Don't forget Doc Keren...
>
> It's Dr. Keren. Unlike the two losers I referred to above, Dr. Keren has
> earned the right to be called Dr.
Mr. Blackmore, if I were in your shoes right now, I wouldn't be too
quick to call people names.
rblac...@juno.com
> mi...@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
> rblac...@juno.com wrote:
> >COMMENT: I would need to research those cases. What about the
> >Maidanek trials in Duesseldorf?
>
> You haven't honestly dealt with the Belsen trial yet. I don't think it
> is time to change yet.
>
>
> Mike Curtis
>
> Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
> Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?
> European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
> Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)
>
>>>>
It is you who has not been honest--with either the browsers or yourself.--rb
rblac...@juno.com
> John....@UAlberta.CA (John Morris) writes:
snip facts supplied bv Mr. Morris
>
> At first blush, do these sound like "kangaroo" courts?
>
> --
> John Morris <John....@UAlberta.CA>
> at University of Alberta <Scripture veteris capiunt exempla futuri>
> --
> The Nizkor Project | http://www.nizkor.org/
>
>>>>
Thanks for the info. I will research this when I have the time,
Mark Van Alstine
In article <19970109210...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
fafn...@aol.com (Fafner13) wrote:
> :>Don't forget Doc Keren...
>
> It's Dr. Keren. Unlike the two losers I referred to above, Dr. Keren has
> earned the right to be called Dr.
>
> --
> Gord McFee
> I'll write no line before its time
>
> Comment: He has also earned the right to be called other things.
Indeed. And unlike the resultant self-inflicted downward plight of Mr.
Belling, those "other things" are indeed complimentary! My thanks to Mr.
Belling for reminding us all of the herculean task Dr. Keren has performed
in providing on-line (literally) megabytes of documentary evidence of the
Nazi genocide of European Jewry.
Kudos to Dr. Keren!
On a completely different note. For those interested in proof of Mr.
Belling's increasingly irrelevant Nazi apologia, intellectual dishonesty,
anti-Semitism, and outright lies, please visit:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/b/bellinger.joseph
Mike Curtis
rblac...@juno.com wrote:
So easy to say. I see you prefer not to _prove_ this accusation.
Interesting tactic.
Mike Curtis
E-mail mcu...@inetport.com
Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/
Mark Van Alstine
In article <32D59F...@ibm.net>, Gord McFee <gmc...@ibm.net> wrote:
> Fafner13 wrote:
> >
> > :>Don't forget Doc Keren...
> >
> > It's Dr. Keren. Unlike the two losers I referred to above, Dr. Keren has
> > earned the right to be called Dr.
>
> > Comment: He has also earned the right to be called other things.
>
> Mr. Blackmore, if I were in your shoes right now, I wouldn't be too
> quick to call people names.
But it's _all_ he has left! (Mr. Belling's phantasmic "proof" withstanding.)
rblac...@juno.com
ya...@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes:
Musmanno sat on the Pennsylvania Supreme Court; his title was
"Justice."
--YFE
Musmanno was an American who sat in judgment over German nationals.
The day he made the decision to do this, he abrogated his right to be called
"Justice."--rblackmore
rblac...@juno.com
mi...@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
Sure he can, Gord! He's been doing this for two months now. Don't you
feel all that air disturbance from the waving of _both_ hands?
Mike Curtis
Comment: Still living on Fantasy Island, aren't you, Mike?---rb
rblac...@juno.com
rblac...@juno.com
mcu...@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
rblackmore writes:
It is you who has not been honest--with either the browsers or yourself.--rb
So easy to say. I see you prefer not to _prove_ this accusation.
Interesting tactic.
Mike Curtis
E-mail mcu...@inetport.com
Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/
Comment: My "proving" it would be superfluous. Read your own posts for direct
confirmation.--rb
rblac...@juno.com
Gord McFee <gmc...@ibm.net> writes:
Fafner13 wrote:
Don't forget Doc Keren...
It's Dr. Keren. Unlike the two losers I referred to above, Dr. Keren has
earned the right to be called Dr.
Comment: He has also earned the right to be called other things.
Mr. Blackmore, if I were in your shoes right now, I wouldn't be too
quick to call people names.
Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time
>>>>
singing a different tune.--rb
rblac...@juno.com
mi...@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
And laughable. When such "feelings" arise, a good historian starts to
research deeper to discover why he has this feeling and tires to
substantiate it. Mr. Bellinger never does this, but prefers to think
that his opinions mean something all by themselves. The feelings of a
bookseller will hardly cause a sniffle in the cold of historical
Mike
Comment:
If such is the case, then you have little to worry about.
rblac...@juno.com
rblac...@juno.com
Don't forget Doc Keren...
It's Dr. Keren. Unlike the two losers I referred to above, Dr. Keren has
earned the right to be called Dr.
Comment: He has also earned the right to be called other things.
Mr. Blackmore, if I were in your shoes right now, I wouldn't be too
quick to call people names.
But it's all he has left!---Mark Van Alstine
Comment: Wrong again. I still have you.--rb
Mark Van Alstine
In article <5b8rip$9...@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblac...@juno.com wrote:
> Gord McFee <gmc...@ibm.net> writes:
> Fafner13 wrote:
>
> Don't forget Doc Keren...
>
> It's Dr. Keren. Unlike the two losers I referred to above, Dr. Keren has
> earned the right to be called Dr.
>
> Comment: He has also earned the right to be called other things.
>
> Mr. Blackmore, if I were in your shoes right now, I wouldn't be too
> quick to call people names.
>
> --
> Gord McFee
> I'll write no line before its time
>
> >>>>
> Comment: You are not in my shoes. if you were, you would be
> singing a different tune.--rb
Indeed. As a castrato.
rblac...@juno.com
>
> > Gord McFee <gmc...@ibm.net> writes:
> > Fafner13 wrote:
> >
> > Don't forget Doc Keren...
> >
> > It's Dr. Keren. Unlike the two losers I referred to above, Dr. Keren has
> > earned the right to be called Dr.
> >
> > Comment: He has also earned the right to be called other things.
> >
> > Mr. Blackmore, if I were in your shoes right now, I wouldn't be too
> > quick to call people names.
> >
> > --
Gord McFee I'll write no line before its time
Comment: You are not in my shoes. if you were, you would be
singing a different tune.--rb
Indeed. As a castrato.
>
>>>>
At least I would have been BORN with balls........rb