Paranoiac Rage etc.
Mark Raven
mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: ...
>And though it does appear, after searching DejaNews, that you have not
>posted any articles on Hoess,
I am guilty until proven innocent. Very nice. I was merely--and
unjustly--accused of posting articles (which I have never even seen) about
Hoess. For what purpose? Mike Curtis first apologized for wrongly accusing
me, and then denied having done so. These endless episodes of
thrust-apologize-and-parry from you Nizkor minions are hardly flattering.
>you _have_ made demonstrably false claims,
>for example, regarding the "media titans" _New York Times_ and CBS _not_
>commenting on the "vital topic" of the Nazi genocide of European Jewry.
It's not clear whether or not your incomprehension on this issue is
intentional. Giving you the benefit of a doubt, I will explain.
Gord McFee claimed that Jews who "attempted to alert the world to the Nazi
genocide" were "ignored". You posted examples of stories from CBS, the New
York Times, and others, demonstrating that Jewish voices were hardly silenced,
although the examples given fall well short of the official Holocaust story.
(That, as you know, came later.) My point is that if media organs of the
magnitude of CBS and the New York Times were heard from, the claim that Jewish
voices were ignored is nonsensical. Apparently, if anything, they were given
an outsized audience. Thanks for helping me prove it.
Care to quote any more "false claims"?
Incidentally, declaring that CBS and the New York Times cannot be in Jewish
hands because they are "publically-held corporations" is the very definition
of "canard".
[Lipstadt quotes deleted] I'll instead insert -my- favorite Lipstadt quote:
"The claim that there are two sides to every story is an intellectually
childish notion." Doubtless you agree with her.
>I would say that _my_ president and _my_ nation did literally almost
>_nothing_ to stop the genocide of European Jewry.
Fighting--and winning--World War II counts as "almost nothing" in your book.
You're spitting on a whole lot of decent American blood. Shame on you. Tens
of millions dead on all sides and all you care about is the putative
"genocide" of European Jewry. This is pernicious, hideous racism.
Hearing from the likes of you makes it clearer to me why some people say we
shouldn't have fought the war in Europe, or why we shouldn't have won it. You
may recall that America wasn't attacked by Germany. We declared war on them.
In 1942 and 1943 especially, our finest young men were being slaughtered,
drawn, and quartered throughout the Pacific by the Japanese (who -did- attack
us), to a considerable extent because our political leaders found it desirable
to emphasize--and preferentially resupply--the forces in the European theatre.
Your remark is a disgrace.
>The only (partial) >redemption to this utter moral failing is that the
>_my_ country- United >States
As if the United States needed redeeming after World War II. It's not at all
clear that the United States is really your country.
>-was paramount in offering aid _and_ >relocation to the Jews (and
>others) _after_ the war ended.
And look how the United States has been thanked.
Mark Raven
Michael P. Stein
In article <1997012409...@mailmasher.com>,
Mark Raven <mark...@mailmasher.com> wrote:
>mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: ...
>
>>And though it does appear, after searching DejaNews, that you have not
>>posted any articles on Hoess,
>
>I am guilty until proven innocent. Very nice. I was merely--and
>unjustly--accused of posting articles (which I have never even seen) about
>Hoess. For what purpose? Mike Curtis first apologized for wrongly accusing
>me, and then denied having done so. These endless episodes of
>thrust-apologize-and-parry from you Nizkor minions are hardly flattering.
I think the problem is that the person posting the Hoess articles is
also named Raven - Greg Raven.
It was also fun back about two years ago when Jamie McCarthy was
confronted by his evil twin, denier Tim "Landpost" McCarthy.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
Gord McFee
> >you _have_ made demonstrably false claims,
> >for example, regarding the "media titans" _New York Times_ and CBS _not_
> >commenting on the "vital topic" of the Nazi genocide of European Jewry.
>
> It's not clear whether or not your incomprehension on this issue is
> intentional. Giving you the benefit of a doubt, I will explain.
>
> Gord McFee claimed that Jews who "attempted to alert the world to the Nazi
> genocide" were "ignored". You posted examples of stories from CBS, the New
> York Times, and others, demonstrating that Jewish voices were hardly silenced,
> although the examples given fall well short of the official Holocaust story.
> (That, as you know, came later.) My point is that if media organs of the
> magnitude of CBS and the New York Times were heard from, the claim that Jewish
> voices were ignored is nonsensical. Apparently, if anything, they were given
> an outsized audience. Thanks for helping me prove it.
I'll be charitable and assume you misunderstood. What I said was that
the Jews who tried to alert the world were ignored. Perhaps I should
have specified that the Jews who alerted the world, did not do so to get
stories in the New York Times or on CBS. They did it in an attempt to
get someone to do something about the extermination that was being
perpetrated upon them by Nazi Germany. Nobody did anything. *That's*
what I mean by ignored.
[deleted]
> >I would say that _my_ president and _my_ nation did literally almost
> >_nothing_ to stop the genocide of European Jewry.
>
> Fighting--and winning--World War II counts as "almost nothing" in your book.
> You're spitting on a whole lot of decent American blood. Shame on you. Tens
> of millions dead on all sides and all you care about is the putative
> "genocide" of European Jewry. This is pernicious, hideous racism.
Bull. The U.S. did *nothing* about the extermination of the Jews, or a
lot of others who were being exterminated at the same time. Of course,
they helped win the war; so did the many other countries fighting the
Axis. But none of them did squat to stop the exterminations, even after
they had been informed of them. How much more do we have to dumb this
down?
[deleted]
--
Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time
Mark Raven
mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: ...
>In article <1997012409...@mailmasher.com>, Mark Raven
><mark...@mailmasher.com> wrote:
>> mvan...@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: ...
>>
>> >And though it does appear, after searching DejaNews, that you have not
>> >posted any articles on Hoess,
>>
>> I am guilty until proven innocent. Very nice. I was merely--and
>> unjustly--accused of posting articles (which I have never even seen) about
>> Hoess.
>My, my, such think you have, Mr. Raven, for one who rants and snarls so
>much. Or perhaps it is _because_ you rant and snarl so much?
I do not understand this construction: "My, my, such think you have..." What
are you saying?
>> Mike Curtis first apologized for wrongly accusing
>> me, and then denied having done so. These endless episodes of
>> thrust-apologize-and-parry from you Nizkor minions are hardly flattering.
>More like your lack of mastering a newsreader, perhaps? Again, as Mr.
>Curtis explained, his refutation (which was quite well done, btw) was
>aimed at the _other_ Mr. Raven. Such errors _do_ happen.
Well done indeed. He backtracked after his apology and then claimed not to
have mentioned me at all. That's called "lying". And you compliment him on
it. Then you say that -I- haven't mastered a newsreader. Very impressive.
>> >you _have_ made demonstrably false claims,
>> >for example, regarding the "media titans" _New York Times_ and CBS _not_
>> >commenting on the "vital topic" of the Nazi genocide of European Jewry.
>>
>> It's not clear whether or not your incomprehension on this issue is
>> intentional. Giving you the benefit of a doubt, I will explain.
It is now clear that it was completely intentional. I should have known.
>>
>> Gord McFee claimed that Jews who "attempted to alert the world to the Nazi
>> genocide" were "ignored".
>And _you_ claimed, in (false) counterpoint, that the "media titans" NYT
>and CBS did not comment on the Nazi genocide of European Jewry. You made,
>as I showed, a demonstrably false claim. A claim so false, and yet so
>_easy_ to disprove, that one is hard pressed _not_ to call it a deliberate
>lie.
Entirely untrue. I said, if voices were "silenced", how was it that the
loudest voices in the land would not have been heard from? As I said in the
other post, you proved MY point, not yours or Mr. McFee's. And so you did.
>> ...although the examples given fall well short of the official Holocaust
>> story.
>And what is this "official Holocaust story," Mr. Raven? (Besides another
>anti-Semitic canard of yours, that is.)
Would that that were true. Then we could dispense with it once and for all.
But as it is, it's an -official- canard to which you and others dedicate
yourselves.
>> (That, as you know, came later.) My point is that if media organs of the
>> magnitude of CBS and the New York Times were heard from, the claim that
Jewish
>> voices were ignored is nonsensical.
>Poor reasoning on your part, Mr. Raven. There is a vast difference between
>the news media commenting on the genocide of the Jews and the U.S.
>Government taking action in regards to the genocide of the Jews. As
>history shows.
History is written by the victors. When they refrain from exaggerating it so
ridiculously, they can sometimes make it stick.
>> Apparently, if anything, they were given
>> an outsized audience. Thanks for helping me prove it.
>An "outsized" audience? Praytell, Mr. Raven what would be the "proper"
>size for an audience in regard to the news of millions of innocent people
>being slaughtered by naked agression for no other reason than they are
>Jewish?
This is not "the news". This ("no other reason") is the nonsensical claim
that supports the Holocaust Industry and the eternal hatred of Germans, Arabs,
Americans, and anyone else who gets in the Jews' way.
>As for helping you "prove" anythinf, I must daresay your narcissism
>precedes your grasp of the situation! All I have helped prove id that you
>are a bumbling denier who's engages his mouth before he puts his brain in
>gear!
You could probably type better than that if 1) you followed your own advice
and 2) you put down your cigarette holder.
>> Care to quote any more "false claims"?
>>
>> Incidentally, declaring that CBS and the New York Times cannot be in Jewish
>> hands because they are "publically-held corporations" is the very
>> definition of "canard".
>canard n. 1 a false, esp. malicious, report that has been fabricated with
>the intention of doing harm
And the harm is endless in this case. It's destroying my country.
>Given that you have offered nary a shred of proof (nor can you) that the
>NYT and CBS were "in Jewish hands"
The names Sulzberger and Paley mean nothing to you, of course. So why bother?
>for the purpose of demeaning the deaths
>of some 6 million Jews, and specifically the deaths of over 390,000
>Hungarian Jews, is certainly a canard on _your_ part, Mr. Raven. An
>anti-Semitic canard often used by Holocaust deniers and anti-Semites, I
>might add.
"Purpose"? I said nothing about your sacred "6 million" and I have said
nothing about any Hungarians. Quit putting words in my mouth.
>> [Lipstadt quotes deleted] I'll instead insert -my- favorite Lipstadt quote:
>> "The claim that there are two sides to every story is an intellectually
>> childish notion." Doubtless you agree with her.
>That is called a red herring, Mr. Raven. Given your, shall we say,
>_lackluster_ performance in the argumentation department, I find it hardly
>suprising you feel the need to drag such an out of context quote across
>the path of the discussion.
Despite your effete, nay effeminate characterizations, the quote is completely
appropriate. If you learned the lesson it provides here you could start on
your way from hatred to understanding.
>> >I would say that _my_ president and _my_ nation did literally almost
>> >_nothing_ to stop the genocide of European Jewry.
>>
>> Fighting--and winning--World War II counts as "almost nothing" in your
book.
>Oops! There you go again, Mr. Raven, putting words into peoples' mouths
>again. My, you _do_ seem to like the sound of your own words, don't you?
They certainly sound better than yours.
>The fact remains, Mr. Raven, that the United States _did_ do almost
>nothing to stop the genocide of the European Jews. The bombing of
>Auschwitz which, arguably, would have saved the lives of hundreds of
>thousand of innocent lives would _not_ have hindered the Allied war effort
>in any significant manner.
>Yet we did not bomb the killing installations at Auaschwitz. Because of
>this over 390,000 innocent people died.
This is your theory. I certainly doubt it. Meanwhile, if the United States
had not fought your war for you, maybe the job you attribute to the Germans
could have been finished. Would that have been better in your book? You
can't have it both ways. Either America did the right thing or it did the
wrong thing by fighting in Europe.
>> You're spitting on a whole lot of decent American blood. Shame on you.
>Oops, _more_ putting words into peoples' mouths!
Look who's talking.
>The only person I see
>here spitting on decent peoples' blood here is you and your denier ilk,
>Mr. Raven.
It's hard to believe that your accommodations do not include mirrors.
>> Tens of millions dead on all sides and all you care about is the putative
>> "genocide" of European Jewry.
>Oops, yet even more putting words into peoples' mouths! My, aren't you a
>dishonest little shrew, Mr. Raven.
More of your ad hominem in lieu of addressing the issue. Notice you don't
deny what I said.
>> This is pernicious, hideous racism.
>Your vile anti-Semitism and hideous lies are indeed pernicious, Mr. Raven.
>You should try and clean up your act.
>> Hearing from the likes of you makes it clearer to me why some people say we
>> shouldn't have fought the war in Europe or why we shouldn't have won it.
>Really? Are you by chance a closet Nazi apologist too?
More of your ad hominem in lieu of addressing the issue.
>> In 1942 and 1943 especially, our finest young men were being slaughtered,
>> drawn, and quartered throughout the Pacific by the Japanese (who -did-
attack
>> us), to a considerable extent because our political leaders found it
desirable
>> to emphasize--and preferentially resupply--the forces in the European
theatre.
>> Your remark is a disgrace.
>Your ignorance and intellectual dishonesty is what is a disgrace, Mr.
>Raven. Your remarks are nothing more than malicious slander and bigotry.
That's truly twisted. The fact is that you don't care about anyone unless
they're Jewish. You especially hate Americans, and so you devalue the lives
they lost. Any attention to American lives (remember, this is America we're
living in) counts as "malicious slander and bigotry".
>> >The only (partial) >redemption to this utter moral failing is that the
>> >_my_ country- United >States
>>
>> As if the United States needed redeeming after World War II.
>For its abandoment of the Jews? Yes, it did. Just like it would have if we
>had abandoned the British.
>> It's not at all clear that the United States is really your country.
>It is becomeing _quite_ clear, Mr.Raven, that Nazi Germany was _yours_.
Weird. I hold no brief for Nazi Germany, and never have.
But I'll let it pass if you tell us which country is yours? It's certainly
not America.
>> >-was paramount in offering aid _and_ >relocation to the Jews (and
>> >others) _after_ the war ended.
>>
>> And look how the United States has been thanked.
>Indeed. We have been thanked profusely by many of those who we gave aid
>to. We also were able, in part, to don the mantle of world leadership
>_because_ of it and have the free world follow that leadership
>_willingly_. No other country could, or can, do that.
An elite class has donned that mantle, as you well know. But the nation
itself has been enslaved. Every principle upon which this great nation was
founded has been subverted by the likes of YOU. So of course you're glad of
it. You can try every subterfuge in the book, and spew every obscenity, but
you cannot suppress that truth forever.
>So please, Mr. Raven, take your vile lies and slanders and stuff them up
>your ass.
>Mark
Since this is the level of discourse you prefer, and since the reasons for
that preference are quite clear, I consider this discussion closed. You are
not capable of or interested in rational, civilized discussion. And you are
unworthy of my attention.
Mark Raven
Mike Curtis
Gord McFee <gmc...@ibm.net> wrote:
>Mark Raven wrote:
>>
>Bull. The U.S. did *nothing* about the extermination of the Jews, or a
>lot of others who were being exterminated at the same time. Of course,
>they helped win the war; so did the many other countries fighting the
>Axis. But none of them did squat to stop the exterminations, even after
>they had been informed of them. How much more do we have to dumb this
>down?
>
A lot, Gord, a lot. Think of a five year old.
Mike Curtis
E-mail mcu...@inetport.com
Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/
Gord McFee
Mike Curtis wrote:
>
> Gord McFee <gmc...@ibm.net> wrote:
>
> >Mark Raven wrote:
> >>
> >Bull. The U.S. did *nothing* about the extermination of the Jews, or a
> >lot of others who were being exterminated at the same time. Of course,
> >they helped win the war; so did the many other countries fighting the
> >Axis. But none of them did squat to stop the exterminations, even after
> >they had been informed of them. How much more do we have to dumb this
> >down?
> >
>
> A lot, Gord, a lot. Think of a five year old.
As I have now seen. You would think these guys would just come out here
and say they are deniers and get it over with. But they don't. They
seem to have to go through a "fake it that I am curious" phase before
their true colors show. Come to think of it, it is pretty childish.
You don't suppose Mark Raven is somehow related to Greg Raven, do you?
If Annie Alpert can be Jewish simply because of her name, isn't Mark
Raven a denier because of his name?
Mike Curtis
Gord McFee <gmc...@ibm.net> wrote:
>Mike Curtis wrote:
>>
>> Gord McFee <gmc...@ibm.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Mark Raven wrote:
>> >>
>> >Bull. The U.S. did *nothing* about the extermination of the Jews, or a
>> >lot of others who were being exterminated at the same time. Of course,
>> >they helped win the war; so did the many other countries fighting the
>> >Axis. But none of them did squat to stop the exterminations, even after
>> >they had been informed of them. How much more do we have to dumb this
>> >down?
>> >
>>
>> A lot, Gord, a lot. Think of a five year old.
>
>As I have now seen. You would think these guys would just come out here
>and say they are deniers and get it over with. But they don't. They
>seem to have to go through a "fake it that I am curious" phase before
>their true colors show. Come to think of it, it is pretty childish.
>
It's the usual tactic. They do not really debate history either.
1. They attack Nizkor, a Web site. Does this MEAN anything to the
history of the holocaust? Nope.
2. They attack Ken McVay, which is another way of attacking Nizkor.
Does this MEAN anything to the history of the holocaust? Nope.
3. They attack the volunteers who contribute to Nizkor. Does this MEAN
anything to the history of the holocaust? Nope.
4. They whine about free speech issues while kicking people off of
their free-speech lists. But does this MEAN anything to the history of
the holocaust? Nope.
5. They bring their anti-Semitism to this conference to show the
lurkers the extent of their hatreds and how weak its supports are. But
Does this MEAN anything to the history of the holocaust? Indirectly it
can show the readers the failed arguments of the Nazis, but it really
has nothing to do with the history of the holocaust. I post a series
on the non-IHR, Greg Raven Hoess article. Do they want to take me to
task? Nope. It seems not. They want that kind of argument to go away.
6. They post modern crap about Israeli relationships with other
countries. Does this MEAN anything to the history of the holocaust?
Nope.
I don't think they want to revise history at all.
>You don't suppose Mark Raven is somehow related to Greg Raven, do you?
I kinda wondered. The thought did cross my mind, I must admit. But Mr.
Mark Raven has enough trouble without people relating him to Greg
Raven.
>If Annie Alpert can be Jewish simply because of her name, isn't Mark
>Raven a denier because of his name?
>
Curious point. Is denial hereditary? Is there a certain structure to
the deniers face, nose, and ears? How about the color of the eyes? Can
you tell if a person is a denier by looking at their picture? Can you
pick them out on the street and say, "Look, Gord! There's a denier!"
posted/emailed
Mike Curtis
Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?
European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)
Gord McFee
> >As I have now seen. You would think these guys would just come out here
> >and say they are deniers and get it over with. But they don't. They
> >seem to have to go through a "fake it that I am curious" phase before
> >their true colors show. Come to think of it, it is pretty childish.
> >
>
> It's the usual tactic. They do not really debate history either.
>
> 1. They attack Nizkor, a Web site. Does this MEAN anything to the
> history of the holocaust? Nope.
Correct, but it's easier to attack a defenseless Web site than a real
live person.
> 2. They attack Ken McVay, which is another way of attacking Nizkor.
> Does this MEAN anything to the history of the holocaust? Nope.
Correct, but they have so much trouble when they have to deal with
*relevant* facts.
> 3. They attack the volunteers who contribute to Nizkor. Does this MEAN
> anything to the history of the holocaust? Nope.
>
> 4. They whine about free speech issues while kicking people off of
> their free-speech lists. But does this MEAN anything to the history of
> the holocaust? Nope.
Correct again, but it certainly reveals the deniers for the two-faced
cowards they are.
> 5. They bring their anti-Semitism to this conference to show the
> lurkers the extent of their hatreds and how weak its supports are. But
> Does this MEAN anything to the history of the holocaust? Indirectly it
> can show the readers the failed arguments of the Nazis, but it really
> has nothing to do with the history of the holocaust. I post a series
> on the non-IHR, Greg Raven Hoess article. Do they want to take me to
> task? Nope. It seems not. They want that kind of argument to go away.
Correct, but Mike, it's your own damn fault. You had the audacity to
post a reasoned, unemotional, analytical, scholarly dissection of
Raven's Rubbish <TM>. You didn't screech or roar, and you didn't wave
your hands or stamp your feet. Scholarly analysis, which in this case
could and should have led to debate, is beyond their ken, because they
are simply here to fulminate, invent, lie and distort (with a little ad
hominem thrown in for good measure). Hence, thunderous silence from the
denier hoards. They don't *really* want to debate.
> 6. They post modern crap about Israeli relationships with other
> countries. Does this MEAN anything to the history of the holocaust?
> Nope.
Correct again, but it is a guaranteed deflection tactic that seems to
work every time.
> I don't think they want to revise history at all.
I think you are right!
> >You don't suppose Mark Raven is somehow related to Greg Raven, do you?
>
> I kinda wondered. The thought did cross my mind, I must admit. But Mr.
> Mark Raven has enough trouble without people relating him to Greg
> Raven.
And vice versa. :-)
> >If Annie Alpert can be Jewish simply because of her name, isn't Mark
> >Raven a denier because of his name?
> >
>
> Curious point. Is denial hereditary? Is there a certain structure to
> the deniers face, nose, and ears? How about the color of the eyes? Can
> you tell if a person is a denier by looking at their picture? Can you
> pick them out on the street and say, "Look, Gord! There's a denier!"
Maybe it's just the stench.
> posted/emailed
Likewise.
Anthony Sabatini
Mike Curtis <mi...@aimetering.com> wrote in article
<32ecb2a5....@news.zilker.net>...
> Gord McFee <gmc...@ibm.net> wrote:
>
> >Mike Curtis wrote:
> >>
> >> Gord McFee <gmc...@ibm.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >>
> >> >Bull. The U.S. did *nothing* about the extermination of the Jews, or
a
> >> >lot of others who were being exterminated at the same time. Of
course,
> >> >they helped win the war; so did the many other countries fighting the
> >> >Axis. But none of them did squat to stop the exterminations, even
after
> >> >they had been informed of them. How much more do we have to dumb
this
> >> >down?
> >> >
> >>
> >> A lot, Gord, a lot. Think of a five year old.
> >
> >and say they are deniers and get it over with. But they don't. They
> >seem to have to go through a "fake it that I am curious" phase before
> >their true colors show. Come to think of it, it is pretty childish.
> >
>
> It's the usual tactic. They do not really debate history either.
>
> 1. They attack Nizkor, a Web site. Does this MEAN anything to the
> history of the holocaust? Nope.
Hypocrite. I guess debating your precious Holocaust has a lot to do with
smearing and slandering so-called "deniers", doesn't it?
> 2. They attack Ken McVay, which is another way of attacking Nizkor.
> Does this MEAN anything to the history of the holocaust? Nope.
Hypocrite. You Holo-Clones (tm) are always attacking anyone that doesn't
buy all your much-vaunted crap.
> 3. They attack the volunteers who contribute to Nizkor. Does this MEAN
> anything to the history of the holocaust? Nope.
Hypocrite. Can it be that "the [sainted] volunteers who contribute to
Nizkor" never attack those who do not agree with their opinions?
> 4. They whine about free speech issues while kicking people off of
> their free-speech lists. But does this MEAN anything to the history of
> the holocaust? Nope.
Hypocrite. Nizkor's Holo-Clones (tm) bleat that *all* posts are archived
therein, yet when looking for a certain "Joel Rosenberg" in the "people"
database, why can't he be found?
> 5. They bring their anti-Semitism to this conference to show the
> lurkers the extent of their hatreds and how weak its supports are. But
> Does this MEAN anything to the history of the holocaust? Indirectly it
> can show the readers the failed arguments of the Nazis, but it really
> has nothing to do with the history of the holocaust. I post a series
> on the non-IHR, Greg Raven Hoess article. Do they want to take me to
> task? Nope. It seems not. They want that kind of argument to go away.
Hypocrite. Holo-Clones (tm) bring their haughty opinions to this group,
(some) defend anti-Christian drivel, and only occasionally reply to
arguments -- often they merely jump in and try to 'save' their fellow sheep
from defeat by obfuscating issues.
> 6. They post modern crap about Israeli relationships with other
> countries. Does this MEAN anything to the history of the holocaust?
> Nope.
Hypocrite. How did the "modern" country of Israeli come to be?
[the rest of Curtis' bleating deleted]
Anthony Sabatini
Gord McFee <gmc...@ibm.net> wrote in article <32EBE9...@ibm.net>...
> Mike Curtis wrote:
> >
> > Gord McFee <gmc...@ibm.net> wrote:
> >
> > >Mark Raven wrote:
> > >>
> > >Bull. The U.S. did *nothing* about the extermination of the Jews, or
a
> > >lot of others who were being exterminated at the same time. Of
course,
> > >they helped win the war; so did the many other countries fighting the
> > >Axis. But none of them did squat to stop the exterminations, even
after
> > >they had been informed of them. How much more do we have to dumb this
> > >down?
> > >
> >
> > A lot, Gord, a lot. Think of a five year old.
>
> As I have now seen. You would think these guys would just come out here
> and say they are deniers and get it over with. But they don't. They
^^^^^^^
I find this term to be misused, particularly by Holo-Clones (tm).
> seem to have to go through a "fake it that I am curious" phase before
> their true colors show. Come to think of it, it is pretty childish.
>
> You don't suppose Mark Raven is somehow related to Greg Raven, do you?
> If Annie Alpert can be Jewish simply because of her name, isn't Mark
> Raven a denier because of his name?
>
>
Gord McFee
Anthony Sabatini wrote:
>
> Mike Curtis <mi...@aimetering.com> wrote in article
> <32ecb2a5....@news.zilker.net>...
[deleted]
> > >As I have now seen. You would think these guys would just come out here
> > >and say they are deniers and get it over with. But they don't. They
> > >seem to have to go through a "fake it that I am curious" phase before
> > >their true colors show. Come to think of it, it is pretty childish.
> > >
> >
> > It's the usual tactic. They do not really debate history either.
> >
> > 1. They attack Nizkor, a Web site. Does this MEAN anything to the
> > history of the holocaust? Nope.
>
> Hypocrite. I guess debating your precious Holocaust has a lot to do with
> smearing and slandering so-called "deniers", doesn't it?
>
> > 2. They attack Ken McVay, which is another way of attacking Nizkor.
> > Does this MEAN anything to the history of the holocaust? Nope.
>
> Hypocrite. You Holo-Clones (tm) are always attacking anyone that doesn't
> buy all your much-vaunted crap.
Mr. Sabatini, just a word to the wise, and further to my previous post
on this subject. Your rhetoric is now approaching a cross between Kurt
Stele and Mr. Blackmore. This does not particularly enhance your
credibility factor. Just some friendly advice.
[rest deleted]
Henry Ayre
> > Nope.
All of this post (the above sentence all that I saved) is meaningless
twaddle. **WHAT** history of the "holocaust" are we talking about? When
one begins honestly and earnestly to investigate the "history of the
holocaust" one finds rather quickly (nowadays with all the information
available in books, videos, and online) that there is NO real history of
the holocaust, per se, only a history about a story of the same name.
It's a bit like reviewing a Hollywood movie. The movie is fiction and the
review is a true story about a fictional story. The truthfulness of
the review does nothing to make real the original fictional story. Thus,
what we have is reality twice removed.
If lurkers want to explore the real events of Europe from the 1930's to
the post-war era I suggest the following books, all of which I have
carefully read and marked:
THE DISSOLUTION OF EASTERN EUROPEAN JEWRY - Walter N. Sanning
ISBN 0-939484-11-0
THE 'CONFESSIONS' OF KURT GERSTEIN - Henri Roques ISBN 0-939484-27-7
AIR PHOTO EVIDENCE - John C. Ball, Ball Resource Services Ltd, Delta,
B.C, Canada.
THE HOAX OF THE TWENTIETH CENTURY - Arthur R. Butz ISBN 0-911038-00-0
THE HOLOCAUST STORY AND THE LIES OF ULYSSES - Paul Rassinier
ISBN 0-939484-26-9
THE HOLOCAUST ON TRIAL - Robert Lenski ISBN 0-9623220-0-8
AUSCHWITZ: END OF A LEGEND - Carlo Mattogno ISBN 0-939484-50-1
AUSCHWITZ: A JUDGE LOOKS AT THE EVIDENCE - Wilhelm Staeglich
ISBN 0-939484-22-1
For collateral information:
OTHER LOSSES - James Bacque ISBN 1-55958-099-2
THE FATE OF THE JEWS - Roberta Strauss Feuerlicht ISBN 0-7043-2448-2
The above are only a sampling of what I have read and what is available
to be read on the subject, books which deal with suppressed facts, facts
without which we cannot make realistic decisions
Finally, we have anomalies such as the following to try to interpret:
(Note that the article originates in an *Israeli* newspaper.)
Chuck Ferree
Chuck Ferree wrote:
Mr. Sabatini, seems to be really pushing the envelope. He claims he is
not a denier, yet denies very important, and historically proven
Holocaust facts.
He criticizes those who swear and use put-downs, yet does the same
thing himself.
He sometimes behaves like a "troller."
Anthony Sabatini wrote:
>
> Gord McFee <gmc...@ibm.net> wrote in article <32EBE9...@ibm.net>...
> > Mike Curtis wrote:
> > >
> > > Gord McFee <gmc...@ibm.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > >Mark Raven wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >Bull. The U.S. did *nothing* about the extermination of the Jews,
clips
>
> > > A lot, Gord, a lot. Think of a five year old.
> >
> > As I have now seen. You would think these guys would just come out here
> > and say they are deniers and get it over with. But they don't. They
>
> ^^^^^^^
>
> I find this term to be misused, particularly by Holo-Clones (tm).
Chuck> got a better word for us to use? I find your word "Holo-Clones
(tm)." Insulting and child-like. People like Matt Giwer resort to
put-downs like this because they don't (can't) make any progress
dealing with the Holocaust facts.
clips about Raven
Gord McFee
[deleted]
> > As I have now seen. You would think these guys would just come out here
> > and say they are deniers and get it over with. But they don't. They
>
> ^^^^^^^
>
> I find this term to be misused, particularly by Holo-Clones (tm).
You used it in its verb form about 20 times in a recent post to me. :-)
Doc Tavish
herman wrote:
> Bald faced cowardly German lies!
> Only Nazis tell the TRUTH! The Kindly SS! Beloved of all nations!
> We NEVER used Poison Gas! We never took Gold from the mouths of
> cadavers! It was the JEWS!
Herman do us all a favor and wipe the foam from around your mouth and
the spittle that drips from your chin. You're a pathetic sight and we
feel sorry for you when you have these delusional outbreaks of yours.
The communist indoctrination is interefering with the synaptic closures
of your brain. If you will come by my lab I will gladly give you some
electro shock therapy that will make you much, much better. You will be
as gentile as a lamb! I mean gentle as a lamb.
Doc Tavish Will Make House Calls by Appointment Only!
Elsa said she would like to work you over too! Whatever that means!
Gretel looked at Elsa with disgust. I see that this will not be a quiet
evening after all!
Jeffrey G. Brown
>Herman do us all a favor and wipe the foam from around your mouth and
>the spittle that drips from your chin. You're a pathetic sight and we
>feel sorry for you when you have these delusional outbreaks of yours.
"...I examine the manner of the debate and conduct. I know who is
telling the truth and who is lying by the tactics employed- the liar
always attacks the opposing person..."
-- Doc Tavish <tav...@phoenix.net>
-- Subject: Statistics Concerning Homosexuals
-- Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 14:57:05 -0600
-- Message-ID: <32D40A...@phoenix.net>
JGB
=====================================================================
Jeffrey G. Brown jeff_...@pol.com
"What's going to happen?" "Something wonderful..." -- '2010'
Anthony Sabatini
Gord McFee <gmc...@ibm.net> wrote in article <32F376...@ibm.net>...> > <32ecb2a5....@news.zilker.net>...
>
> [deleted]
>
> > > >As I have now seen. You would think these guys would just come out
here
> > > >and say they are deniers and get it over with. But they don't.
They
before
> > > >their true colors show. Come to think of it, it is pretty childish.
> > > >
> > >
> > > It's the usual tactic. They do not really debate history either.
> > >
> > > history of the holocaust? Nope.
> >
with
> > smearing and slandering so-called "deniers", doesn't it?
> >
> > > 2. They attack Ken McVay, which is another way of attacking Nizkor.
> >
doesn't
> > buy all your much-vaunted crap.
>
> Mr. Sabatini, just a word to the wise, and further to my previous post
> on this subject. Your rhetoric is now approaching a cross between Kurt
> Stele and Mr. Blackmore.
Mr. McFee, please explain how my comments are considered "rhetoric". Then
please illuminate how it is "approaching a cross between Kurt Stele and Mr.
Blackmore". Once you are done with this, please demonstrate how my comments
are untrue, which you seem to be implying.
> This does not particularly enhance your
> credibility factor.
And now, Mr. McFee, please explain why my "credibility factor" is at risk.
Also, in whose eyes do you deem this will effect?
> Just some friendly advice.
Uh-huh.
>
> [rest deleted]
[.sig snipped]
herman
>
> herman wrote:
>
> > Bald faced cowardly German lies!
> > Only Nazis tell the TRUTH! The Kindly SS! Beloved of all nations!
> > We NEVER used Poison Gas! We never took Gold from the mouths of
> > cadavers! It was the JEWS!
>
herman
>
> herman wrote:
>
> The communist indoctrination is interefering with the synaptic closures
> electro shock therapy that will make you much, much better. You will be
> as gentile as a lamb! I mean gentle as a lamb.
> Doc Tavish Will Make House Calls by Appointment Only!
>
Doc Tavish
> ILSE KOCH liked men with colorful tattoos. As the wife of the
> Buchenwald Commandant she took an interest in “Art”. This blue-eyed
> Master Race White Germanic Aryan sought her “Art” on the body of
> tattooed inmates. Her CHOSEN victims were delivered to the Dispensary
> where an example of Master Race Medicine killed them by injection. They
> had much experience killing by injection during the Euthanasia projects in
> Germany, where they injected thousands of their OWN mentally deficient
> children and the elderly feeble.At the Pathological Department the tatooed
> skin was removed and treated. The treated skins were used by Frau Koch to
> make Lampshades, Bookcovers and Gloves. Below the photo of Ilse Koch
> prisoner # 29 7340 is the photo of Shrunken Heads found at Buchenwald.
>
> The book “The Scourge Of The Swastika” by Lord Russel Of Liverpool
> 1954(before revisionists) and was found at the United States Air Force,
> Library Service Center, Continental Air Command, Robbins AFB, GA.
>
> A Nazi wrote in “This is a complete and total LIE!”
> An animal type Nazi. He said The Nuremberg Trials were a Kangaroo
> Court and the tattooed skins came for Goats. How many tattooed goats
> have you seen?
> He also said that” Ilse Koch’s husband Robert was killed by the Nazi SS
> for maltreating the inmates.”
> Everyone knows about the legendary “kindness” of the SS.
>
> I prefer the American, British and Canadian accounts over the pathological
> Nazi liars- still blaming the Jews after 50 years!
Hey Herman if my electro shock therapy doesn't help you nor Elsa's
paddling your butt with a ping pong paddle doesn't help [Gretel told me
what Elsa had in mind] then Gunther said he'd like to perform a lobotomy
on you if all else fails. Gunther has been taking ICS neurosurgery
courses by mail and he needs to perform an operation before he can get
his diploma! Are you game? The only other alternative is to let Bruno
interview you and see what he recommends!
Doc Tavish
Mark Raven
On Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:30:57 -0500, Gord McFee <gmc...@ibm.net> wrote:
..
>
>You don't suppose Mark Raven is somehow related to Greg Raven, do you?
>If Annie Alpert can be Jewish simply because of her name, isn't Mark
>Raven a denier because of his name?
>
>
>Gord McFee
>I'll write no line before its time
It's as good an argument as any of your fellow-travellers have come up with,
Gord.
"Denier" = "One who questions authority" = "Nazi". It's a weird equation, if
you ask me. But I didn't create it, I merely remark on it.
Mark Raven
Mike Curtis
Henry Ayre <he...@alaska.net> wrote:
>Does this MEAN anything to the history of the holocaust?
>> > Nope.
>
>All of this post (the above sentence all that I saved) is meaningless
>twaddle. **WHAT** history of the "holocaust" are we talking about?
Mr. Ayre snips out what I wrote and doesn't address one iota of what I
was saying. I'm talking about history and not what you folks prefer to
talk about. What is that? Why it is what you snipped. See----->
1. They attack Nizkor, a Web site. Does this MEAN anything to the
history of the holocaust? Nope.
2. They attack Ken McVay, which is another way of attacking Nizkor.
Does this MEAN anything to the history of the holocaust? Nope.
3. They attack the volunteers who contribute to Nizkor. Does this MEAN
anything to the history of the holocaust? Nope.
4. They whine about free speech issues while kicking people off of
their free-speech lists. But does this MEAN anything to the history of
the holocaust? Nope.
5. They bring their anti-Semitism to this conference to show the
lurkers the extent of their hatreds and how weak its supports are. But
Does this MEAN anything to the history of the holocaust? Indirectly it
can show the readers the failed arguments of the Nazis, but it really
has nothing to do with the history of the holocaust. I post a series
on the non-IHR, Greg Raven Hoess article. Do they want to take me to
task? Nope. It seems not. They want that kind of argument to go away.
6. They post modern crap about Israeli relationships with other
countries. Does this MEAN anything to the history of the holocaust?
Nope.
I don't think they want to revise history at all.
> When
>one begins honestly and earnestly to investigate the "history of the
>holocaust" one finds rather quickly (nowadays with all the information
>available in books, videos, and online) that there is NO real history of
>the holocaust, per se, only a history about a story of the same name.
It's called dealing with the evidence honestly and without distortion,
Mr. Ayre. So I have to ask why all the silence when a refutation of
Mr. Raven's Hoess article is placed on the table?
[snip]
[snipped list of distortionist material.]
Mr. Ayre seems fearful to debate on his own. But what else is new?
cz...@worldnet.att.net
On Tue, 04 Feb 1997 07:03:21 -0500, herman <her...@internetmci.com>
wrote:
:White Pride SS Oficer Reinhardt Heydrich called “The Blond Beast”
: by /his own Nazis. He was known for his insatiable greed for power
: known /for a total lack of human compassion. You know- your kind.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
WRONG! Heydrich having Jewish blood is not a weak possibility.
A number of Jews were Nazi soldiers, including some officers.
They chose RACE over the silly notion of family -- unlike the vast
majority of stupid Jewish Sheeple.
They were of course non-simite in appearance.
ChuckF2323
Chuck Ferree wrote:
Subject: Re: Still Cowardly Nazis
From: cz...@worldnet.att.net
Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 18:55:08 GMT
Message-ID: <32f98217...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>
On Tue, 04 Feb 1997 07:03:21 -0500, herman <her...@internetmci.com>
wrote:
:White Pride SS Oficer Reinhardt Heydrich called “The Blond Beast”
: by /his own Nazis. He was known for his insatiable greed for power
: known /for a total lack of human compassion. You know- your kind.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
WRONG! Heydrich having Jewish blood is not a weak possibility.
Chuck> Bullshit. Prove it.
A number of Jews were Nazi soldiers, including some officers.
Chuck> More Bullshit. Prove it.
They chose RACE over the silly notion of family -- unlike the vast
majority of stupid Jewish Sheeple.
Chuck> using distorted opinions to take pot-shots at Jews. Racist, bigot MF.
They were of course non-simite in appearance.
Chuck> No shit !!!
LET ANY DOUBTER, IN ALL THE GENERATIONS TO COME, CONTEMPLATE WHAT IT WOULD BE LIKE TO LIVE IN A WORLD DOMINATED BY HITLER, THE JAPANESE WARLORDS, OR ANY OTHER CRUEL DICTATOR OR DESPOT. Ira C. Eaker Commanding General, United States Air Force
LUEK
chuck...@aol.com (ChuckF2323) wrote:
>Chuck Ferree wrote:
Something about old dead Nazis snipped:
>LET ANY DOUBTER, IN ALL THE GENERATIONS TO COME, CONTEMPLATE WHAT IT WOULD BE LIKE >TO LIVE IN A WORLD DOMINATED BY HITLER, THE JAPANESE WARLORDS, OR ANY OTHER CRUEL >DICTATOR OR DESPOT. Ira C. Eaker Commanding General, United States Air Force
>OR ANY OTHER CRUEL DICTATOR OR DESPOT
bill clinton?
PS: Please use word wrap!
Gord McFee
[deleted]
> > Mr. Sabatini, just a word to the wise, and further to my previous post
> > on this subject. Your rhetoric is now approaching a cross between Kurt
> > Stele and Mr. Blackmore.
>
> Mr. McFee, please explain how my comments are considered "rhetoric". Then
> please illuminate how it is "approaching a cross between Kurt Stele and Mr.
> Blackmore". Once you are done with this, please demonstrate how my comments
> are untrue, which you seem to be implying.
>
> > This does not particularly enhance your
> > credibility factor.
>
> And now, Mr. McFee, please explain why my "credibility factor" is at risk.
> Also, in whose eyes do you deem this will effect?
The only eyes on this are yours and mine. I asked you several questions
in a post over a week ago and you have not responded. The whole affair
between you and me has been civil and polite, and I was not referring to
exchanges between you and me when I made the Stele remark. (Expressions
such as Holo-clone and Nizkook are Stele favorites.)
I am just curious why you have not responded to my post.
Gord McFee
Mark Raven wrote:
>
> On Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:30:57 -0500, Gord McFee <gmc...@ibm.net> wrote:
> ..
> >
> >You don't suppose Mark Raven is somehow related to Greg Raven, do you?
> >If Annie Alpert can be Jewish simply because of her name, isn't Mark
> >Raven a denier because of his name?
> Gord.
>
> "Denier" = "One who questions authority" = "Nazi". It's a weird equation, if
> you ask me. But I didn't create it, I merely remark on it.
Glad to see you agree with my incisive comments. :-)
Chuck Ferree
Chuck Ferree wrote:
First of all; doc tavish ain't no kindly natsie. Tha doc is a
crotchity, paranoid commie baiter, who keeps German refugees, workin
for him, doing all sorts of weird stuff. One of his hired hands (so
doc says) does lobotomies. Doc had one, and he swears he can handle
them chipmunks with both hands tied behind his back (by Elsa) the one
what cooks and washes tha doc's back. doc also says that I'm just
another sick homo. Of course tha doc thinks just about everyone is a
homo. He's afraid to face his own latent homosexual tendencies. But
then aren't we all.
Ursus Major wrote:
>
> The "Nazi Fiend" who said the skins were from goats and that the tatoos had been
> added was General Lucius B. Clay, Military Governor of Germany (American zone).
Did he say that the tattoos had been added? I don't think so. He did
re-state his opinion upon being shown medical proof, that the
lampshades were indeed made from human skin. I believe they were, I
saw two of the shades, but I'm no expert, like major.
You should have see the room; they named the "organ room." Hundreds
of jars and bottles containing all sorts of human organs and body
parts. It wasn't a pretty sight.
Chuck
> This report was delivered at a meeting of the Marshall Commission in 1949, in
> Arlington, VA.
>
> (Herman the Geek likes to put lines across the page, making quotations of his
> unaccesable for comment.)
Anthony Sabatini
Chuck Ferree <chu...@rio.com> wrote in article <32F4A5...@rio.com>...
> Chuck Ferree wrote:
>
> Mr. Sabatini, seems to be really pushing the envelope. He claims he is
> not a denier, yet denies very important, and historically proven
> Holocaust facts.
It is you and your 'friends' that have branded me a denier, and only
because I do not believe "millions" died. I thought "deniers" were those
who don't believe the Holocaust happened at all...
> He criticizes those who swear and use put-downs, yet does the same
> thing himself.
Sorry, Chuck, but I didn't start. The Holo-Clones (tm) did. (I guess you
could say that the gloves are off...)
> He sometimes behaves like a "troller."
Uh-huh.
> Anthony Sabatini wrote:
> >
> > Gord McFee <gmc...@ibm.net> wrote in article <32EBE9...@ibm.net>...
> > > Mike Curtis wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Gord McFee <gmc...@ibm.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >Mark Raven wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >Bull. The U.S. did *nothing* about the extermination of the Jews,
>
> clips
>
> >
> > > > A lot, Gord, a lot. Think of a five year old.
> > >
> > > As I have now seen. You would think these guys would just come out
here
> > > and say they are deniers and get it over with. But they don't. They
> >
> > ^^^^^^^
> >
> > I find this term to be misused, particularly by Holo-Clones (tm).
>
> Chuck> got a better word for us to use? I find your word "Holo-Clones
> (tm)." Insulting and child-like. People like Matt Giwer resort to
> put-downs like this because they don't (can't) make any progress
> dealing with the Holocaust facts.
Oh, but I guess you have no problem calling people "denier" and "troller",
eh? BTW, Chuck, it was *your* 'friends' that started with the "put-downs"
in my case. Look it up at DejaNews!
> clips about Raven
[.sig snipped]
ibokor
Doc Tavish (tav...@phoenix.net) wrote:
: Hey Herman if my electro shock therapy doesn't help you nor Elsa's
: paddling your butt with a ping pong paddle doesn't help [Gretel told me
: what Elsa had in mind] then Gunther said he'd like to perform a lobotomy
: on you if all else fails. Gunther has been taking ICS neurosurgery
: courses by mail and he needs to perform an operation before he can get
: his diploma! Are you game? The only other alternative is to let Bruno
: interview you and see what he recommends!
:
:
Poor Gunther needs outside help to do his homework!
If his master had a brain-cell he could have practised
and performed the operation at home or at his place of
employment. But of course anyone who would be caught
dead or alive in your service is certainly going to
feel a profoundly justified sense of intellectual
inferiority when in the company of a retarded amoeba.
Elsa & Gretel Ulrich
ibokor wrote:
>
> Doc Tavish (tav...@phoenix.net) wrote:
>
> : Hey Herman if my electro shock therapy doesn't help you nor Elsa's
> : what Elsa had in mind] then Gunther said he'd like to perform a lobotomy
> : on you if all else fails. Gunther has been taking ICS neurosurgery
> : courses by mail and he needs to perform an operation before he can get
> : his diploma! Are you game? The only other alternative is to let Bruno
> : interview you and see what he recommends!
> :
> :
>
> Poor Gunther needs outside help to do his homework!
Reggie is not an Outcome Based Educationalist! Reggie wants Gunther to
achieve on his own merit. How will Gunther learn if everybody does his
work for him?
> If his master had a brain-cell he could have practised
> and performed the operation at home or at his place of
> employment.
You malign Reggie but Reggie is an unappreciated genius that will be
such as a desert bloom. He will be here to radiate his intellect and
then will die and wither away. Will he be missed? He has many E-Mailers
so it would be up to them to carry on his dream and works.
> But of course anyone who would be caught
> dead or alive in your service is certainly going to
> feel a profoundly justified sense of intellectual
> inferiority when in the company of a retarded amoeba.
You only malign Reggie because of your baseless jealousy. Reggie is
jealous of no one because he is self reliant and a self made man. Only
his lessers seek to denigrate him. You are no friend of Reggie if you
can't see beyond his eccentricities. He can be a very cantankerous
grouch but he always shows a genuine heart of gold to those in his
trusted inner circle.
Elsa & Gretel Ulrich on the behalf of our mentor, soul mate, and friend
Elsa & Gretel Ulrich
Chuck Ferree wrote:
>
> Chuck Ferree wrote:
>
> First of all; doc tavish ain't no kindly natsie. Tha doc is a
> crotchity, paranoid commie baiter, who keeps German refugees, workin
> for him, doing all sorts of weird stuff.
Reggie has us, Gunther as a butler, Gerhardt as a pilot, and Jurgen as
his gardener. Yes we are all Germans. Reggie and Gerhardt flew to
Germany to bring Bruno Eckhardt back to stay with us too! Reggie feels
sorry for all that Germans have to constantly put up with from Jewish
extortional demands!
> One of his hired hands (so
> doc says) does lobotomies.
Gunther is taking an ICS course and when he gets his diploma he say he
will give you 50% off.
> Doc had one, and he swears he can handle
> them chipmunks with both hands tied behind his back (by Elsa) the one
> what cooks and washes tha doc's back.
> doc also says that I'm just
> another sick homo.
You made Reggie mad about something and it was his childish reaction to
respond to you that way! Go ahead and tell on us, we don't care; Reggie
never gets mad at any of us anyway! You all expect Reggie to be perfect
and we will tell you he's not. We believe that he has more character and
compassion than any of his detractors.
> Of course tha doc thinks just about everyone is a
> homo. He's afraid to face his own latent homosexual tendencies.
You wouldn't be saying Reggie is a homo if you can see his flag go to
full mast when Gretel and I sponge him off in the whirlpool tub. Gretel
and I will swear that Reggie is 100% American male. You would not see
Reggie in a good light if you had to. Rumor had it at one time, and we
know it was a joke, that Reggie was a breeder at a Nazi stud farm for
women up in Idaho. Reggie is past 45 now and as all champions he's been
put out to pasture.
Elsa & Gretel Ulrich on the behalf of Reggie McTavish
BTW Mr. Feree did you know that Reggie's deceased uncle, Cyrill
Haversham McTavish could make a Boeing B-17 back up!? Reggie's uncle
Cyrill made much spending money during the war but he got an honorable
discharge because he said: "I can't fly this plane and drop any more
bombs on defenseless German civilians." Mr. Feree these are the
McTavish's; men of true character. You should look up to them as an
example.
Anthony Sabatini
Jeffrey G. Brown <jeff_...@pol.com> wrote in article
<jeff_brown-02...@news.zippo.com>...
> In article <32F54F...@phoenix.net>, tav...@phoenix.net wrote:
>
> >Herman do us all a favor and wipe the foam from around your mouth and
> >the spittle that drips from your chin. You're a pathetic sight and we
> >feel sorry for you when you have these delusional outbreaks of yours.
>
> "...I examine the manner of the debate and conduct. I know who is
> telling the truth and who is lying by the tactics employed- the liar
> always attacks the opposing person..."
>
> -- Doc Tavish <tav...@phoenix.net>
> -- Subject: Statistics Concerning Homosexuals
> -- Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 14:57:05 -0600
> -- Message-ID: <32D40A...@phoenix.net>
So we're back to this, eh?
[.sig snipped]
Michael P. Stein
In article <01bc1248$404b6740$717213cc@server>,
Anthony Sabatini <anth...@infobahnos.com> wrote:
>Chuck Ferree <chu...@rio.com> wrote in article <32F4A5...@rio.com>...
>> Chuck Ferree wrote:
>>
>> Mr. Sabatini, seems to be really pushing the envelope. He claims he is
>> not a denier, yet denies very important, and historically proven
>> Holocaust facts.
>
>It is you and your 'friends' that have branded me a denier, and only
>because I do not believe "millions" died. I thought "deniers" were those
>who don't believe the Holocaust happened at all...
Well, let me put it to you this way. I have been accused of denying
Jesus and Christianity. But I think that's a lie. I believe that there
was a Jesus of Nazareth, who really was crucified. I don't believe he was
born to a virgin, I don't believe he turned water into wine, I don't
believe he was the Messiah, I don't believe he rose from the dead. But he
was a great teacher who had a lot of worthwhile things to say. So I'm not
a Christianity denier. Right?
Posted/emailed.
--
Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer.
Elsa & Gretel Ulrich
> Herman's Head wrote:
>
> Typical Nazi response-
> Another Nazi revisionist- who mails hateful diatribes against Blacks,
> Orientals and Jews on the internet says “Who Me?’ Do you expect to
> believe the “nonsense stories of the American, British & Canadians”?
> “I know all about Gold fillings” There is very little gold in a filling.
> And he said “ IT WOULD TAKE A HELL OF A LOT OF EXTRACTED
> FILLINGS TO MAKE JUST ONE STANDARD BAR OF FORT KNOX
> GOLD”
>
> IT WOULD TAKE A HELL OF A LOT OF EXTRACTED FILLINGS TO
> MAKE JUST ONE STANDARD BAR OF FORT KNOX GOLD!
>
> IT WOULD TAKE A HELL OF A LOT OF EXTRACTED FILLINGS TO
> MAKE JUST ONE STANDARD BAR OF FORT KNOX GOLD!
>
> IT WOULD TAKE A HELL OF A LOT OF EXTRACTED FILLINGS TO
> MAKE JUST ONE STANDARD BAR OF FORT KNOX GOLD!
>
> IT WOULD TAKE A HELL OF A LOT OF EXTRACTED FILLINGS TO
> MAKE JUST ONE STANDARD BAR OF FORT KNOX GOLD!
Elsa & Gretel here. Folks do you remember the TV show called Herman's
Head that aired a few years ago on the Fox Network? The show starred
William Ragsdale and he was a researcher. The show revolved around
Herman's thought processes and the processes were his: lust, his
intellect, his tender side, and his coward side. Remember seeing the
girl and the three guys playing Herman's conscious thought?
Look at the Herman we now have in this ng. We conclude that his
consciousness is made up from the Three Stooges and Pee Wee Herman! This
guy is truly all clown!
Elsa & Gretel Ulrich
BTW Gunther says he will still lobotomize you! You need help with your
Head Herman! :-)
ChuckF2323
Chuck Ferree wrote:
First of all, Tavish isn't a Nazi. He's a commie baiter and a homophobic.
And of course a liar.
Subject: Re: Doc Tavish kindly Nazi
From: grea...@mindspring.com
Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 07:05:26 -0500
Message-ID: <32F9C9...@mindspring.com>
Anne Frank a young Jewish girl hid from the Nazis in an Amsterdam attic
and maintained a diary of how she lived day to day. After the war her
diary
was found. A local criminal had turned in the Frank family to the Nazis.
Little Anne Frank was carted off to a Concentration Camp. And three
month short of her 16th birthday ,at Bergen Belsen she was gassed, and
Chuck> Anne Frank was not gassed. No gas chambers at Belsen. Anne Frank
died from neglect and probably Typhus.
her remains and the remains of many, many young gassed children were
sent to the Crematorium Ovens to be burned to ashes.
Chuck> Another lie. No crematoriums at Belsen. The thousands of dead, were
buried in several mass graves.
Before she was gassed, like so many young girls with long hair, her hair
was shorn. Her hair was SOLD by the hundreds of kilos for manufacture
into carpeting and insulation in military clothing. Those with Gold
fillings
in their teeth were extracted before cremation and fillings stacked in
cartons to be melted into bars of Gold Bullion. Jew Gold.
Chuck> more of the doc krocks bullshit
People , like the Nazis, with the same Anti-Jew tactics, spread their
malicious hatred to this very day. These people come from families where
they got no love or kindness. Starved by the lack of human compassion
they have none. And they have no kindness to give. They can remember
back 2000 years and call Anne Frank Christ Killer- But they cannot
remember back 50 years ago for what THEY have done to those Jews.
Chuck> yeah about six million Jews and 8-10 million others. But doc tha
krock new that.
They always lose in the end. Their day to day lives are a tragic waste.
Their
leaders end up on the end of a rope. They are despised of men.
Herman
Chuck> Herman, get a different job. Try to get on the Prescott Police
Department.
Typical Nazi response-
Another Nazi revisionist- who mails hateful diatribes against Blacks,
Orientals and Jews on the internet says Who Me? Do you expect to
believe the nonsense stories of the American, British & Canadians?
I know all about Gold fillings There is very little gold in a filling.
Chuck> Maybe so, but 10-20 million gold fillings is a lot of gold
fillings. They did it any way, the Nazis were really not too bright.
And he said IT WOULD TAKE A HELL OF A LOT OF EXTRACTED
FILLINGS TO MAKE JUST ONE STANDARD BAR OF FORT KNOX
GOLD
IT WOULD TAKE A HELL OF A LOT OF EXTRACTED FILLINGS TO
MAKE JUST ONE STANDARD BAR OF FORT KNOX GOLD!
Chuck> Sure would, but the gold bars weren't at Ft Knox! They are probably
still in Swiss banks, where the Nazis stashed them.
IDIOT !!
Bob Whitaker
grea...@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> > Doc Tavish (tav...@phoenix.net) wrote:
> >
> > : Hey Herman if my electro shock therapy doesn't help you nor Elsa's
>
> The other Rosenberg. Alfred Rosenberg
> Hitler’s chief racial ideologist.
>
> He too was obsessed by his belief in an “international Jewish conspiracy”
>
> The Nazi who was found guilty of extermination of Jews and participation in
> forced labor.
> The one who stood trial before the world.
> The one who was sentenced to death by hanging at Nuremberg.
>
> And long before the Nuremberg trials tens of thousands of American,
> British and Canadian died on the beaches of Normandy and in the fields of
> France, Holland, Belgium and tens of thousands more bled but survived.
> Just to stop these madmen.
>
> And more than 30 million dead in Europe.
> Enough to build 600 Vietnam War Memorials!
> And for what?
>
> So the bastards with their obsession in an “international Jewish
> conspiracy” can spout their Jew Hating sentiments!
>
> Herman
Good PC!
Actually, without Lenin there could have been no Hitler.
Anti-semitism was incidental. If it hadn't been Nazism, it would have
been Stalinism in Germany. The slaughter and disaster would have
occurred anyway.
But that's just historical reasoning, and it is not useful to Political
Corretness like your "everything would have been great without
anti-semitism" bit.
Your "it was all just evil rightism bit" is useful to the PC
establishment, and real thought never is.
Anthony Sabatini
Gord McFee <gmc...@ibm.net> wrote in article <32F7FB...@ibm.net>...
I believe the term Holo-Clone (tm) can be attributed to me, as can
Gobbledi-Talk (tm), a favored game of the Holo-Clones (tm).
> I am just curious why you have not responded to my post.
I have no idea which post you are referring to. Why don't you just e-mail
me the thread subject or something and ask me to comment? (BTW, Mr. McFee,
I hope that you understand how Usenet works. Sometimes message take a while
before they appear on other people's news server; sometimes messages even
get lost.) I try to reply to all questions _as soon as I see them_.
[.sig snipped]
Anthony Sabatini
Michael P. Stein <mst...@access1.digex.net> wrote in article
<5dbm39$l...@access1.digex.net>...
> In article <01bc1248$404b6740$717213cc@server>,
> Anthony Sabatini <anth...@infobahnos.com> wrote:
> >Chuck Ferree <chu...@rio.com> wrote in article
<32F4A5...@rio.com>...
> >> Chuck Ferree wrote:
> >>
> >> Mr. Sabatini, seems to be really pushing the envelope. He claims he is
> >> not a denier, yet denies very important, and historically proven
> >> Holocaust facts.
> >
> >It is you and your 'friends' that have branded me a denier, and only
> >because I do not believe "millions" died. I thought "deniers" were those
> >who don't believe the Holocaust happened at all...
>
> Well, let me put it to you this way. I have been accused of denying
> Jesus and Christianity. But I think that's a lie. I believe that there
> was a Jesus of Nazareth, who really was crucified. I don't believe he
was
> born to a virgin, I don't believe he turned water into wine, I don't
> believe he was the Messiah, I don't believe he rose from the dead. But
he
> was a great teacher who had a lot of worthwhile things to say. So I'm
not
> a Christianity denier. Right?
No, I would not call you a "Christianity denier". You have the choice
whether to believe or not. You see, Mr. Stein, unlike you and your fellow
cronies, I feel no compulsion to impose my beliefs on others.
Now let me ask you a few questions, Mr. Stein. Since I have answered yours,
I hope you will extend me the same courtesy.
How would you feel if you lived in a country where questioning the validity
of Jesus Christ as divine was a criminal offence?
What would you do if the Catholic Church, for example, kept files on what
you publicly say (on Usenet) regarding your disbelief?
How would you react if Protestants, for instance, kept showing repeated
disdain for your beliefs?
What if one or two of them public slandered you by calling you
anti-Christian, a Christ-killer, etc.?
What would you do if you heard that a government from another country where
you had fellow disbelievers were contemplating laws against such disbelief?
Please answer each question above without diverting the topic. Thank you.
[.sig snipped]
ibokor
Elsa & Gretel Ulrich (tav...@phoenix.net) wrote:
:
: You only malign Reggie because of your baseless jealousy.
:
I malign no-one. I just take him at his word and
let them speak for him.
But you are right in as much as if I were to be
jealous of your employer -- and you can rest easy
knowing that I am not -- then such jealousy would
be completely baseless!
: Reggie is jealous of no one because he is self reliant
: and a self made man.
That explains why he cuts such a poor figure.
He needs pity rather than the scorn he has so
carefully earned.
: Only his lessers seek to denigrate him.
He himself is one of his chief lessers in that case,
for there is no greater denigration of him
possible than to take him at his word.
: You are no friend of Reggie
True!
We have never met, so we could hardly be friends!
His e-mail messages and postings have done nothing
to whet my appetite for meeting him. On the contrary,
they make me smugly content at my good fortune to
not have such that being in the circle of my
acquaintances!
: if you can't see beyond his eccentricities. He can be a very cantankerous
: grouch but he always shows a genuine heart of gold to those in his
: trusted inner circle.
They should enjoy his "heart of gold". I have no desire
to disrupt their pleasure or diminish their share of it.
: Elsa & Gretel Ulrich on the behalf of our mentor, soul mate, and friend
d.A. on my own behalf.
John Walker
During WWII, according to author Iwo Pogonowski,
there were over 8,500 German camps organized in 13 administrative
districts.
The main camps and branches were:
1. Dachau
2. Buchenwald - Dora
3. Flossenburg
4. Gross Rosen
5. Majanek
6. Notz Weller Struthof
7. Neurengamme
8. Auschwitz-Birkenau
9. Ravensbruck
10. Mathausen
11. Sachsenhausen - Oranienburg
12. Stutthof
13. Plaszow
=======================================
Also, there were 4 special mass extermination camps:
1. Culmhof (360,000 killed)
2. Belzec (600,000 killed)
3. Sobibor (250,000 killed)
4. Treblinka II (750,000 killed by Cyclon "B" gas)
========================================
Majdanek (200,000 killed)
Birkenau-Auschwitz II (3,500,000 killed)
=========================================
These figures, Pogonowski says, are according to the
commission investigating German-Nazi (socialist -JW)
crimes in Poland.
The 8,500 Nazi (socialist -JW) camps, during WWII, held
18 million prisoners of which 11 million were killed.
This included 3.5 million Polish citizens of of 5 million processed.
==========================================
Camps other than the extermination cajps were punitive-investigative,
hard labor, special prison camps for youth and children, transit camps,
and ghetos converted into concentration camps.
In the prisoner of war camps, 3.4 million soviet men perished, as did
thousands of Italians, Poles, Yugoslavs, Britons, Frenchmen and others.
====================
Thus, it would probably be unlikely that the youngster
mentioned below, Anne Frank, was gassed to death
at Bergen Beltsen. But, the method of death does not
matter so much as the injustice.
Pogonowski: "1939-1945 -- Poland lost 6,028,000 people or
22% of population, the highest percent of any country inEurope; 644,00
were killed in combat and ther est in prisons, death camps, executions,
and annihilation of ghettos; nearly half of the victims were Jews; almost
all
gypies were exterminated; 40% of university professors were killed;
27 universities and institutes were destroyed with 50% of all schools
and libraries. In World War II Poland lost 40% of her gross national
wealth.
Further adding to the injustice rendered Poland was the treachery of
the Allies in surrendering Poland to communist domination. This compounded
Polands tragedies and losses.
WWII was not fought to save the Jews.
We do a great injustice to promote the revisionism that only
Jews suffered and died.
The injustice continued after WWII as socialist/communists Russia and
China continued killing for the greater glory of achieving their new
world order.
==========
- John Walker
==============================================
ChuckF2323 <chuck...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970206234...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> Chuck Ferree wrote:
[snip]
> Little Anne Frank was carted off to a Concentration Camp. And three
> month short of her 16th birthday ,at Bergen Belsen she was gassed, and
[snip]
Daniel Keren
In Message-ID: <01bbffd9$30dc9850$4c7213cc@server>,
the "Holocaust revisionist" Anthony Sabatini
<anth...@infobahnos.com>, wrote the following about
the members of the Nizkor project for documentation
of the Holocaust:
# Well, I don't know about the Communists, but if I
# have my way, the only thing these Nizkorites will
# be interrogating is the prison guard as to what time
# lunch is served.
<end quote from Sabatini's article>
But, do not forget: "revisionist" always claim that
they support free speech...
-Danny Keren.
ChuckF2323
Chuck Ferree...DID NOT WRITE THAT ANNE FRANK WAS GASSED, JUST THE
OPPOSITE. SHE DIED FROM NEGLECT AND OR TYPHUS. SHE IS BURIED IN A MASS
GRAVE WITH THOUSANDS OF OTHERS WHO DIED AT BELSEN.
Jeffrey G. Brown
>Look at the Herman we now have in this ng. We conclude that his
>consciousness is made up from the Three Stooges and Pee Wee Herman! This
>guy is truly all clown!
"...I examine the manner of the debate and conduct. I know who is
telling the truth and who is lying by the tactics employed- the liar
always attacks the opposing person..."
-- Doc Tavish <tav...@phoenix.net>
-- Subject: Statistics Concerning Homosexuals
-- Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 14:57:05 -0600
-- Message-ID: <32D40A...@phoenix.net>
"Name calling only makes you look like a chronic boob to
those who know better!"
-- From: Doc Tavish <tav...@phoenix.net>
-- Subject: Statistically Speaking: Tavish is Still
Correct as Always & Only People W/O Answers
Name Call!
-- Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 20:26:12 -0600
-- Message-ID: <32F54C...@phoenix.net>
JGB
=====================================================================
Jeffrey G. Brown jeff_...@pol.com
"What's going to happen?" "Something wonderful..." -- '2010'
Roger Hughes
In message 2F54FC...@phoenix.net> <32F5C2...@internetmci.com>
<32fbd9ff...@news.sure.net> <32F79C...@rio.com>
<32F932...@phoenix.net> - grea...@mindspring.com writes:
:>
:>Anne Frank a young Jewish girl hid from the Nazis in an Amsterdam attic
:>was found. A local criminal had turned in the Frank family to the Nazis.
Herman, you're a complete idiot. Ann Frank was NOT gassed. She died of typhus
at Bergen-Belsen. If you would have ever bothered to read her alledged
diary, you'd know that.
:>Before she was gassed, like so many young girls with long hair, her hair
:>was shorn. Her hair was SOLD by the hundreds of kilos for manufacture
:>into carpeting and insulation in military clothing. Those with Gold fillings
:>in their teeth were extracted before cremation and fillings stacked in
:>cartons to be melted into bars of Gold Bullion. Jew Gold.
More hallucinations. Besides, there is very little gold in fillings. Go ask
your dentist sometime.
:>People , like the Nazis, with the same Anti-Jew tactics, spread their
:>malicious hatred to this very day.
I try to spread the truth.
:>These people come from families where
:>they got no love or kindness. Starved by the lack of human compassion
:>they have none. And they have no kindness to give.
More raving idiocy.
:>They can remember
:>back 2000 years and call Anne Frank “Christ Killer”- But they cannot
:>remember back 50 years ago for what THEY have done to those Jews.
I have never done anything to any Jews. That doesn't mean I believe the
'Chosen' bullshit either. Like I said, I try to find the truth and then
disseminate it. The difference with me is that I couldn't care less if some
of it makes Jews angry.
:>They always lose in the end. Their day to day lives are a tragic waste. Their
:>leaders end up on the end of a rope. They are despised of men.
You do more harm than help for your side. People read your posts and see a
lunatic. You're not convincing anyone. If anything, you turn people towards
White racialism.
Keep it up!
=============================================
The National Alliance - The Premier Patriotic
Organization for persons of European descent.
Hear NA chairman, Dr. William Pierce, in real
time audio on American Dissident Voices at
http://www.natall.com
http://www.natvan.com
Why fool around with anything else?
=============================================
Michael P. Stein
In article <01bc1431$28b00ab0$267213cc@server>,
Funny, you should. I was being quite ironic in my last message.
Language is a matter of social convention. The color of snow is
called, in English, "white." But there is nothing magical about the
word; we could call it "blanc" or "weiss" or "bzork" as long as
everyone agreed that this pattern of letters/sounds referred to
the-color-that-snow-is. But assuming that we both are speaking English,
if I claim that the natural color of snow is green then I am implicitly
denying that snow is white.
There are some words which are, in a sense, a shorthand for a fairly
large and complex set of attributes. "Christianity" is one of those
words. There are fringe aspects about which people disagree - e.g., does
the host really _become_ the body of Jesus Christ or not - while still
being recognizable as what everyone agrees is Christian. But there are
some core aspects which, I submit, are so integral to the definition of
the word, in its socially accepted meaning, that to deny one of those
aspects is to deny the thing itself.
I further submit that the Messiah-hood of Jesus is one of the aspects
of Christianity which is absolutely essential to the definition. To deny
that tenet is indeed to deny "Christianity," no matter how many of the
moral teachings contained in the Gospels one accepts. I had hoped you
would see that my previous tongue-in-cheek response about not being a
"Christianity denier" involved an illicit redefinition of "Christianity"
to exclude one of its fundamental and integral aspects. It is as if I had
said, "I don't deny that snow is white. I know that I say that snow is
green, but I redefine green to be a shade of white, so I am really not a
white snow denier."
The Holocaust is another complex term. The exact numbers are open to
discussion. But one of the central aspects is that there was mass murder
and that it was official policy - I earlier posted and emailed to you a
list of attributes of Holocaust denial. When you called murder
"relatively rare," you denied one of the fundamental and integral aspects
of the core meaning of that which is represented by the term "Holocaust"
as generally defined.
Actually, there is one distinction _I_ draw which others may disagree
with. I used my views on Christianity only as an example to illustrate a
point. Under ordinary circumstances I do not make a point of going around
expressing public disbelief in Christianity. I have absolutely no desire
to persuade anyone to share my (dis)belief on that issue. I will not
describe as a holocaust denier anyone who does not go out of their way to
_share_ their position, to persuade others of it. You will note that I
have said you made comments _close_ to Holocaust denial, but I did not
accuse you of it flat out. That is because I have not reached a verdict
on your intentions.
> You have the choice
> whether to believe or not. You see, Mr. Stein, unlike you and your fellow
> cronies, I feel no compulsion to impose my beliefs on others.
Where, praytell, have I ever tried to impose my beliefs on others?
Produce one shred of evidence that I have ever advocated or even condoned
imposing any penalty - whether jailing, loss of job, or obscene phone
calls - on anyone who does not share my beliefs? I have gone on record as
opposing any restrictions on revisionist speech. If you like, I can
supply you with the names of revisionists to whom I have offered my
cooperation in tracking down people who have mailbombed them - you can ask
them if they think I'm only talk on this issue.
_You_, on the other hand, have expressed approval for jailing those
whose _speech_ you consider sleazy tactics. So just who is trying to
impose his beliefs on whom here?
You've stated your opinions. I've stated my opinions about your
opinions. If your statement of opinion is not an attempt to impose them
on me, how is my statement of contrary opinion - rude as you may think it
- an attempt to impose my beliefs on you?
> Now let me ask you a few questions, Mr. Stein. Since I have answered yours,
> I hope you will extend me the same courtesy.
Of course. It is wise to seek information before forming opinions,
and if you had followed that principle from the first, you might not have
run into nearly so much flak here (especially from me). You're quite
right that I haven't had much respect for your opinions, but if you think
it's because of what they are, you're wrong. It is in large part because
you formed them and announced them to the world without really making what
I consider even a halfway reasonable attempt to educate yourself on the
available evidence.
You waltzed into alt.revisionism with a "theory" based on what
appeared to be about two nanoseconds worth of study (and nothing you've
said since then gives me any reason to change that opinion). You said you
wanted to know what people thought. Well, you got _exactly_ what you
_claimed_ you wanted. Trouble is, people (myself included) thought you
were a bloody fool, and said so, some none too gently. (Some said worse.)
Now instead of remedying the holes in your knowlege, you seem to have
decided that you are just going to get even with all the mean nasty
bullies like me who sneered at that bright shiny theory of which you were
so proud. Oh, gosh, no, what happened couldn't POSSIBLY be due to
ANYTHING you did, like shooting off your mouth in ignorance. Your
attitude doesn't exactly give me reason to change my opinion of you.
Remember, nobody came looking for you to rain on your parade. _You_
took it upon yourself to come _here_, into a newsgroup where some of us
have been participating for three years and even longer, and spending
hours in the library reading material. And you decided _you_ were going
to announce your pet theory (how many milliseconds of research did you do
to come up with it?) in this environment and expect to get - what?
Showers of praise for your brilliant scholarship and insight? *snort* Get
real!
I have much better relations with, e.g., Ehrlich606. I may disagree
with him, but I have more respect for his opinions in general. It is
because he has a much better grasp of what it is he is disagreeing with
than you do.
And your lack of care is not just limited to the Holocaust. Again, I
challenge you to produce evidence that I am, "unlike you," trying to
"impose" my beliefs on others. Persuade, yes. (And there's a good chance
you don't even realize what beliefs I am and am not trying to persuade
people _of_ - but I will say rather enigmatically that I don't consider
that to be your fault.) But "impose?" Of the two of us, you are the only
one who has called for jailing someone you disagree with. Yet you accuse
_me_ of trying to impose _my_ beliefs. As I said, you are a hypocrite.
Keep up the false claims about my views and intentions and you can add
"shameless liar" to your list of attributes, absolutely free.
> How would you feel if you lived in a country where questioning the validity
> of Jesus Christ as divine was a criminal offence?
Wouldn't like it. Fortunately I don't live in such a country. I also
don't live in a country where questioning the Holocaust is a criminal
offense. I intend to keep it that way if I have any say in the matter. I
have publicly stated that other countries are wrong in doing so on both
moral and pragmatic grounds.
How would you like it if someone accused you of wanting to impose
criminal penalties for disbelief in Christianity simply because some other
Christians did so? You objected when Mark Van Alstine called you
antisemitic because of your position on the Holocaust. You will recall
that twice I voiced public disagreement with his position. Yet here you
seem to be trying to insinuate that I am in agreement with censoring
Holocaust denial simply because a few of those who agree with my views on
the intellectual corruption of Holocaust denial have (much against my
wishes) done so in other countries. Some thanks I get for defending you
against an unfounded accusation!
> What would you do if the Catholic Church, for example, kept files on what
> you publicly say (on Usenet) regarding your disbelief?
Nothing. The Catholic Church has no power (at least in America) to do
anything to me based on those files.
But more to the point, I post to Usenet with the knowledge and
_intent_ that the whole wide world could read what I write. It is
absolutely incomprehensible to me that I should be upset by someone doing
with my posts _exactly_ what I intended to be done with them - viz.,
reading them. If they keep files on what I say in a public forum, and
reread it, so much the better! Maybe then they'll learn that I am right
and they are wrong! :) :) :)
As long as the _whole_ file is open for inspection (as it is on
Nizkor), and there is no deceptive editing (which there is not, despite
Matt Giwer's claims - neither he nor anyone else has ever demonstrated any
difference in a Nizkor post from the DejaNews or AltaVista version), it is
my problem if I've said something stupid (which, on occasion, I have).
The words I say are what they are, and they don't suddenly shift meaning
because they're in a church file as opposed to your news server. If I
apologize for my stupidity, and that apology is also in the file, I am
content.
Intellectual consistency is a warm puppy.
> How would you react if Protestants, for instance, kept showing repeated
> disdain for your beliefs?
It would depend on the circumstances and the exact expression of that
disdain. I'm not trying to be evasive. I really cannot think of how to
give a general answer which will give you a reliable understanding of how
I would react in a specific situation. I could come up with some
hypothetical examples myself, but there might be some cases which _you_
might think very close to the example, yet which would cause me to react
significantly differently. Also, what I come up with as an example might
not be anywhere close to a case you would like to know about. If you give
me a more concrete situation I hope I can respond to it in a meaningful
way.
Just as an example of what I'm talking about, I'd certainly have a
more annoyed reaction to someone coming to my door to tell me that I need
to change my beliefs than I would if I walked into a church of my own
volition and heard the same thing. In the first case, someone took it
upon themselves to seek me out and lecture me. In the second case, it is
my fault for being there to hear something that contradicts my opinions,
and it is _my_ duty to deal with it, not _theirs_ to be careful not to
offend me. I walked into _their_ turf. It makes a difference, I think.
And you know what? The thing I chiefly resent about the first case
above is not that they're denigrating my beliefs by telling me I need to
change them. It's that they are _wasting my time_. I have better uses
for it.
> What if one or two of them public slandered you by calling you
> anti-Christian, a Christ-killer, etc.?
I'd say they were wrong. I'd point out they had no evidence of my
anti-Christianity, and that I was not around two thousand years ago. I
will remind you that I pointed out in public, in response to Mark Van
Alstine's accusation, that I had seen no evidence of antisemitism on your
part.
On the other hand, they could call me a Christianity denier. It would
be true. Therefore it would not be slander.
To see actual examples of my responses in such circumstances, check
out my responses on the Talmud distortions, the articles which falsely
claim that the Talmud teaches that when a grown man has sex with a girl
under three years and a day old, it is nothing. I actually am much more
patient with those - at least on the first go-round, when I tell the
_whole_ story and give the references - because I give them the benefit of
the doubt and assume they are innocently repeating someone else's
persuasive lie-by-omission.
Intellectual consistency is a warm puppy.
> What would you do if you heard that a government from another country where
> you had fellow disbelievers were contemplating laws against such disbelief?
I would register my opposition to it in some way. I suppose my
actions would depend in part on how effective I thought they would be.
The actions might include letter writing, protests, participation in a
boycott, etc. As a concrete example, I'm concerned about the human rights
situation in China, but they seem to be quite content to ignore protests.
I don't strictly boycott Chinese goods - they are simply too pervasive to
make such purity possible - but if there is a Chinese and a non-Chinese
product available, I do take that into consideration before buying.
In response to a question about my views about imposing controls on
the Internet to combat "hate speech," which was under consideration in
Canada, I wrote to express my opposition to controls. You see, you don't
even have to give me a hypothetical based on self-interest. I've got
real-world examples to show I'm not just an empty shirt on this issue. I
speak up for my opponents when I think truth and justice is on their side
- as you should know from the episode with Mark Van Alstine calling you an
antisemite.
Intellectual consistency is a warm puppy.
> Please answer each question above without diverting the topic. Thank you.
I trust my answers have been sufficiently clear and to the point. One
of the questions was too broad to give a very meaningful answer, but if
you draw it more narrowly I might be able to respond better.
grea...@mindspring.com
>
> In message 2F54FC...@phoenix.net> <32F5C2...@internetmci.com>
> <32fbd9ff...@news.sure.net> <32F79C...@rio.com>
> <32F932...@phoenix.net> - grea...@mindspring.com writes:
> :>
> :>Anne Frank a young Jewish girl hid from the Nazis in an Amsterdam attic
> :>and maintained a diary of how she lived day to day. After the war her diary
> :>was found. A local criminal had turned in the Frank family to the Nazis.
> :>Little Anne Frank was carted off to a Concentration Camp. And three
> :>month short of her 16th birthday ,at Bergen Belsen she was gassed, and
> :>her remains and the remains of many, many young gassed children were
> :>sent to the Crematorium Ovens to be burned to ashes.
>
> Herman, you're a complete idiot. Ann Frank was NOT gassed. She died of typhus
> at Bergen-Belsen.
Oh I understand! Your kind dragged a young innocent Jewish teenage and
forced her into a Death Camp- Bergen-Belsen and she died of typhus!
Lucky girl she died before being forced into the gas chamber.
You cynical Nazi bastards will quibble over how they killed their prey
by beatings,starvation,disease,shooting or gassing!
Mark Raven
You make yourself look ridiculous with this post. I thought that the examples
from Matt Giwer represented a bit of hysteria but did you really take this
quote from Mr. Sabatini seriously? It sounds like humor to me. There might
even be a pun in there.
So that we might take you seriously, would you please give us examples where
people were imprisoned for stating Holocaust Orthodoxy? Or the Official
Story, or whatever you want to call it. Examples, please? They would make
your argument a bit more credible. You know that people are already in jail
for -questioning- that Story. So give us examples where people have been
imprisoned for stating the approved version of the story. It will support the
idea that you are truly threatened by silly jokes like the one you quoted
above. Examples, please?
Mark Raven
Avital Pilpel
Roger Hughes wrote:
>
> In message 2F54FC...@phoenix.net> <32F5C2...@internetmci.com>
> <32fbd9ff...@news.sure.net> <32F79C...@rio.com>
> <32F932...@phoenix.net> - grea...@mindspring.com writes:
> :>
> :>Anne Frank a young Jewish girl hid from the Nazis in an Amsterdam attic
> :>and maintained a diary of how she lived day to day. After the war her diary
> :>was found. A local criminal had turned in the Frank family to the Nazis.
> :>Little Anne Frank was carted off to a Concentration Camp. And three
> :>month short of her 16th birthday ,at Bergen Belsen she was gassed, and
> :>her remains and the remains of many, many young gassed children were
> :>sent to the Crematorium Ovens to be burned to ashes.
>
> Herman, you're a complete idiot. Ann Frank was NOT gassed. She died of typhus
> diary, you'd know that.
>
Well, this is interesting: "You see that lying jew?? He claims that anna
frank died from gassing in a concentration camp where millions died, but as we
all know, she merely died of typhus!".
You forgot to remind the reader that she died just to spite the poor Germans
and blame them for her death.
Besides, if yo consider the diaries to be "alleged", how come you refer the
poster you replied to to them?
--
Avital Pilpel.
=====================================
The majority is never right.
-Lazarus Long
=====================================
Gord McFee
Anthony Sabatini wrote:
>
> Gord McFee <gmc...@ibm.net> wrote in article <32F7FB...@ibm.net>...
deleted]
> > I am just curious why you have not responded to my post.
>
> I have no idea which post you are referring to. Why don't you just e-mail
> me the thread subject or something and ask me to comment? (BTW, Mr. McFee,
> I hope that you understand how Usenet works. Sometimes message take a while
> before they appear on other people's news server; sometimes messages even
> get lost.) I try to reply to all questions _as soon as I see them_.
Yes, I understand how Usenet works Part of my questioning was based on
the fact that several posts that appeared well after mine had been
responded to by you and mine had not. In any event, we have now cleared
up by e-mail which post it was and I reposted it the other day. I look
forward to your response.
--
Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time
HeadedTo...@dinner.time
I usually don't "lead" innocent children as much, they just aren't
that fast....
Oh, I'm sorry! I thought that was a question...
M Huber
It's not nice to fool Mother Technology.
There was NEVER any gassing.
LUEK
grea...@mindspring.com wrote:
>Another Nazi revisionist- who mails hateful diatribes against Blacks,
>Orientals and Jews on the internet says “Who Me?’ Do you expect to
>believe the “nonsense stories of the American, British & Canadians”?
>“I know all about Gold fillings” There is very little gold in a filling.
>And he said “ IT WOULD TAKE A HELL OF A LOT OF EXTRACTED
>FILLINGS TO MAKE JUST ONE STANDARD BAR OF FORT KNOX
>GOLD”
>IT WOULD TAKE A HELL OF A LOT OF EXTRACTED FILLINGS TO
>MAKE JUST ONE STANDARD BAR OF FORT KNOX GOLD!
>IT WOULD TAKE A HELL OF A LOT OF EXTRACTED FILLINGS TO
>MAKE JUST ONE STANDARD BAR OF FORT KNOX GOLD!
>IT WOULD TAKE A HELL OF A LOT OF EXTRACTED FILLINGS TO
>MAKE JUST ONE STANDARD BAR OF FORT KNOX GOLD!
>IT WOULD TAKE A HELL OF A LOT OF EXTRACTED FILLINGS TO
>MAKE JUST ONE STANDARD BAR OF FORT KNOX GOLD!
My God, "herman/greatdane" what happened?
Did you blackout and collapse on the F1 DOS repeat key of
your 1979 Radio Shack Tandy keyboard?
Better lay off the sauce for awhile...Do you know what the initials AA
stand for? I wonder if they have a Website? Think about it.
grea...@mindspring.com
Just another Nazi revisionist supporter.
The American,British & Canadian troops that died on the beaches of
Normandy to free Europe from his type.
Call me any name you want Nazi lover. Facts are facts.
You are just another Anti-American coward:
vindi...@aol.com
In article <32F68D...@internetmci.com>, herman wrote:
>Only Nazis tell the TRUTH!
I take strong exception to your assertion, brother herman.
In my humble opinion, there are a number of others who tell the truth.
While there are many who tell the truth less often than
National-Socialists, there are some also who tell the truth even more than
National-Socialists.
Your problem may lie in your isolated life style. If you will get out
more, meet people, talk about politics with people from many backgrounds
-- not just college kids -- you will eventually find a good number of good
people who tell good truth.
And as, continuing in your search, you continue to meet others who lie, do
not begrudge them too much. They are merely the product of their society
and economic conditions. If things had gone better for them, they would
be much more honest, I'm sure.
Thank you, herman, for your refreshing honest.
Respectfully, V8
Mark Van Alstine
> In message 2F54FC...@phoenix.net> <32F5C2...@internetmci.com>
> <32fbd9ff...@news.sure.net> <32F79C...@rio.com>
> <32F932...@phoenix.net> - grea...@mindspring.com writes:
> :>
> :>Anne Frank a young Jewish girl hid from the Nazis in an Amsterdam attic
> :>and maintained a diary of how she lived day to day. After the war her diary
> :>was found. A local criminal had turned in the Frank family to the Nazis.
> :>Little Anne Frank was carted off to a Concentration Camp. And three
> :>month short of her 16th birthday ,at Bergen Belsen she was gassed, and
> :>her remains and the remains of many, many young gassed children were
> :>sent to the Crematorium Ovens to be burned to ashes.
>
> Herman, you're a complete idiot. Ann Frank was NOT gassed. She died of typhus
> at Bergen-Belsen. If you would have ever bothered to read her alledged
> diary, you'd know that.
This is indeed true. Anne Frank, by all documented reports, died of typhus
at Bergen-Belsen sometime in March of 1945. (cf. Barnouw & van der
Stroom, _The Diary of Anned Frank; The Critical Edition_, pp.49-56.)
> :>Before she was gassed, like so many young girls with long hair, her hair
> :>was shorn. Her hair was SOLD by the hundreds of kilos for manufacture
> :>into carpeting and insulation in military clothing. Those with Gold
fillings
> :>in their teeth were extracted before cremation and fillings stacked in
> :>cartons to be melted into bars of Gold Bullion. Jew Gold.
>
> More hallucinations.
And what is Mr. Hughes evidence that the extraction of gold dental work
from the corpses of the gassed victims are "hallucinations?" Would Mr.
Hughes care to explain such "hallucinations" in light of the photograph of
a pile extracted gold teeth and dental works taken from the corpses of the
gassed victims at Birkanau, as shown on page 162 of _Auschwitz: a history
in photographs_?
> Besides, there is very little gold in fillings. Go ask
> your dentist sometime.
Indeed. This, however, does _not_ negate the fact that the gold dental
work of the gassed victims were extracted from their corspes. The fact is
that the bulk of the gold taken from the gassed victims was in the form of
jewelry. This probably amounted to, on average, approximately 5-7 grams
per victim.
> :>People , like the Nazis, with the same Anti-Jew tactics, spread their
> :>malicious hatred to this very day.
>
> I try to spread the truth.
By calling reports of the collection of prisoners' hair, and it sale to
German firms for the purpose of manufacturing goods, "hallucinations?"
Perhaps Mr. Hughes is unaware that according to Pohl's February 6, 1943,
report on the textile _Aktion_ up to that time, 3 tons of women's hair had
been collected. (cf. Hilberg, _Destruction_, p.615.) According to Dr.
Andrzej Strzlecki, of the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum, "in
instructions issued on January 4 and 11, 1943, the administrative
authorities of 11 concentration camps were directed to deliver the hair to
the following German firms: Alex Zink Filzfabrik AG in Roth, near
Nuremberg; Paul Reinmann in Mieroszow, in the Sudenten (Freidland Bez.
Breslau); and Fa"rberi Forst AG, in Forst on the Luzycka Nysa (Neisse)
River. One kg (2.2. pounds) of hair was worth 0.50 Reichmark (RM; about
$1.09)." (cf. Gutman, _Anatomy_, p.260.)
Furhtermore, Mr. Hughes also appears to be unaware that photographs, taken
upon the liberation of Auschwitz show, for example, quanties of women's
hair, as well as _bolts of cloth_ made from human hair. (cf. Sweibocka,
_Auschwitz: a history in photographs_, pp.162,211.)
I would suggest that perhaps it is Mr. Hughes who is the one suffering
from "hallucinations" here.
[snip]
> :>They always lose in the end. Their day to day lives are a tragic waste.
> :>Their leaders end up on the end of a rope. They are despised of men.
>
> You do more harm than help for your side. People read your posts and see a
> lunatic. You're not convincing anyone. If anything, you turn people towards
> White racialism.
>
> Keep it up!
>
> =============================================
> The National Alliance - The Premier Patriotic
> Organization for persons of European descent.
> Hear NA chairman, Dr. William Pierce, in real
> time audio on American Dissident Voices at
> http://www.natall.com
> http://www.natvan.com
> Why fool around with anything else?
> =============================================
Actually, Mr. Hughes, an open supporter of viruntly hateful and
anti-Semitic neo-Nazi National Allience it appears, is quite convincing.
I have no doubt he convinces people every time he posts of the sheer
lunacy of those, includsing himself, who find succor in the violence,
hate, bigotry, racism, and anti-Semitism of Nazi ideology as promulgated
by the National Alliance.
Such, it seems, is the way of pathetic losers, maladroits, and miscreants.
Mark
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts."
-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel Keren
Daniel Keren
Mark Raven <mark...@mailmasher.com> writes:
[To me]
# You make yourself look ridiculous with this post. I thought
# that the examples from Matt Giwer represented a bit of hysteria
# but did you really take this quote from Mr. Sabatini seriously?
Of course. Let us look at it again:
<begin quote from Sabatini's article>
In Message-ID: <01bbffd9$30dc9850$4c7213cc@server>,
the "Holocaust revisionist" Anthony Sabatini
<anth...@infobahnos.com>, wrote the following about
the members of the Nizkor project for documentation
of the Holocaust:
# Well, I don't know about the Communists, but if I
# have my way, the only thing these Nizkorites will
# be interrogating is the prison guard as to what time
# lunch is served.
<end quote from Sabatini's article>
# It sounds like humor to me.
Interesting. Matt Giwer, the well-known "leading revisionist
scholar", said something similar about the documents which
mention the "gas chamber" in Krema V and the "gassing cellar"
in Krema III: that these documents represent a "morbid sense
of humor" on the part of the SS-men who wrote them.
Your suggestion, that Sabatini was "joking" when he wrote
what he wrote, is no less idiotic than Giwer's claim. Is there
any evidence that he was joking? No.
# There might even be a pun in there.
A pun? A pun, you say? Boys and girls, can anyone see
a pun in Sabatini's article?
Where's the pun?
# It will support the idea that you are truly threatened by silly
# jokes like the one you quoted above.
I don't feel threatened. Nazi punks don't rule the world yet,
and it doesn't seem this will happen in the near future. The
purpose of the repost - as well as reposts about other attempts
by "revisionists" to intimidate and persecute those who
disagree with them - is to expose these Nazi punks for what
they are: hypocrites who whine and screech about "freedom
of speech", while simultaneously using Nazi-like methods to
silence the opposition.
However, I understand Sabatini's frustration; I hope it will
make him happy to hear that, in the next few days, I'll post
examples of attempts by other "revisionists" against free speech.
He should not be there all alone.
-Danny Keren.
General Bullmoose
On {Mon, 10 Feb 1997 22:29:57 GMT}, {dke...@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)} wrote
in {alt.revisionism}:
[AG the goose]
>Mark Raven <mark...@mailmasher.com> writes:
>
>[To me]
>
># You make yourself look ridiculous with this post. I thought
># that the examples from Matt Giwer represented a bit of hysteria
># but did you really take this quote from Mr. Sabatini seriously?
>
>Of course. Let us look at it again:
>
><begin quote from Sabatini's article>
>
>In Message-ID: <01bbffd9$30dc9850$4c7213cc@server>,
>the "Holocaust revisionist" Anthony Sabatini
><anth...@infobahnos.com>, wrote the following about
>the members of the Nizkor project for documentation
>of the Holocaust:
>
># Well, I don't know about the Communists, but if I
># have my way, the only thing these Nizkorites will
># be interrogating is the prison guard as to what time
># lunch is served.
>
><end quote from Sabatini's article>
>
># It sounds like humor to me.
>
>Interesting. Matt Giwer, the well-known "leading revisionist
>scholar", said something similar about the documents which
>mention the "gas chamber" in Krema V and the "gassing cellar"
>in Krema III: that these documents represent a "morbid sense
>of humor" on the part of the SS-men who wrote them.
But we did know at the time what you were concealing about the
"gasification cellar" claim. Now we do. What is your point here? Concealing
something else?
>Your suggestion, that Sabatini was "joking" when he wrote
>what he wrote, is no less idiotic than Giwer's claim. Is there
>any evidence that he was joking? No.
Who gives a rat's ass if it was a joke or not? It was only a holocaust.
Not something to get all worked up about.
It isn't like people are going to come back to life or anything.
Besides if they did it would make for a frightful housing problem in
Poland. We can't have that now can we.
=====
What's good for General Bullmoose is good for the USA.
Mark Raven
Dan, I have trouble believing that you really take Anthony Sabatini's remark
seriously. Yes, it was humourous, and yes, it might even be said to have
involved a pun. The play on words would relate to multiple meanings of the
word "interrogate". I explain this now even though I am beginning to suspect
that your objection was disingenuous.
I apologize for introducing Matt Giwer's name into this discussion. I know
very little about him, and it seems to be an unnecessary distraction. But I
did want to make the point that Mr Sabatini's language is by comparison
light-hearted. I still think his remark was humourous and intended that way.
But we should hear from him, if he is so inclined.
For you to compare Mr. Sabatini's remark with gas chambers seems to me to
trivialize your own story.
Meanwhile, you neglected to supply us with evidence about how the threat of
improsonment might be taken seriously by Nizkorites.
For your convenience, I will reproduce that section of my note:
"So that we might take you seriously, would you please give us examples where
people were imprisoned for stating Holocaust Orthodoxy? Or the Official
Story, or whatever you want to call it. Examples, please? They would make
your argument a bit more credible. You know that people are already in jail
for -questioning- that Story. So give us examples where people have been
imprisoned for stating the approved version of the story. It will support the
idea that you are truly threatened by silly jokes like the one you quoted
above. Examples, please?"
Danny Keren wrote:
>Mark Raven <mark...@mailmasher.com> writes:
># You make yourself look ridiculous with this post. I thought
># that the examples from Matt Giwer represented a bit of hysteria
># but did you really take this quote from Mr. Sabatini seriously?
>Of course. Let us look at it again:
><begin quote from Sabatini's article>
>In Message-ID: <01bbffd9$30dc9850$4c7213cc@server>,
>the "Holocaust revisionist" Anthony Sabatini
><anth...@infobahnos.com>, wrote the following about
>the members of the Nizkor project for documentation
>of the Holocaust:
># Well, I don't know about the Communists, but if I
># have my way, the only thing these Nizkorites will
># be interrogating is the prison guard as to what time
># lunch is served.
><end quote from Sabatini's article>
># It sounds like humor to me.
>Interesting. Matt Giwer, the well-known "leading revisionist
>scholar", said something similar about the documents which
>mention the "gas chamber" in Krema V and the "gassing cellar"
>in Krema III: that these documents represent a "morbid sense
>of humor" on the part of the SS-men who wrote them.
>Your suggestion, that Sabatini was "joking" when he wrote
>what he wrote, is no less idiotic than Giwer's claim. Is there
>any evidence that he was joking? No.
># There might even be a pun in there.
>A pun? A pun, you say? Boys and girls, can anyone see
>a pun in Sabatini's article?
>Where's the pun?
># It will support the idea that you are truly threatened by silly
># jokes like the one you quoted above.
>I don't feel threatened. Nazi punks don't rule the world yet,
>and it doesn't seem this will happen in the near future. The
>purpose of the repost - as well as reposts about other attempts
>by "revisionists" to intimidate and persecute those who
>disagree with them - is to expose these Nazi punks for what
>they are: hypocrites who whine and screech about "freedom
>of speech", while simultaneously using Nazi-like methods to
>silence the opposition.
>However, I understand Sabatini's frustration; I hope it will
>make him happy to hear that, in the next few days, I'll post
>examples of attempts by other "revisionists" against free speech.
>He should not be there all alone.
-Danny Keren.
Mark Raven
Mark Raven
Jurgen Schiller
grea...@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> Roger Hughes wrote:
> >
> > In message 2F54FC...@phoenix.net> <32F5C2...@internetmci.com>
> > <32fbd9ff...@news.sure.net> <32F79C...@rio.com>
> > <32F932...@phoenix.net> - grea...@mindspring.com writes:
> > :>
> > :>Anne Frank a young Jewish girl hid from the Nazis in an Amsterdam attic
> > :>and maintained a diary of how she lived day to day. After the war her diary
> > :>was found. A local criminal had turned in the Frank family to the Nazis.
> > :>Little Anne Frank was carted off to a Concentration Camp. And three
> > :>month short of her 16th birthday ,at Bergen Belsen she was gassed, and
> > :>her remains and the remains of many, many young gassed children were
> > :>sent to the Crematorium Ovens to be burned to ashes.
> >
> > Herman, you're a complete idiot. Ann Frank was NOT gassed. She died of typhus
> > at Bergen-Belsen.
Herman, yaeh you numbnuts, read Joshua and see how the Jews would enter
a city and kill all the men, women, and children and then burn the whole
city and everything in it! Would this not be the same results as a
Crematorium Oven? Face the truth o' Child of Satan, you are from the
tribe of the original child killers! Were not the lives destroyed by
your genocidal acts just as precious as Anne Frank's or were they simply
expendable because Gentiles are but mere beasts? Herman you look very
bad now! Don't be bad mouthing Germans for what your people pioneered!
You will face judgment and punishment eventually so repent and clean
your tarnished conscience now while you can!
Doc Tavish
Doc Tavish
Jews have been the most prolific killers to ever walk the Earth! Theirs
is the only religion founded on genocide and based on the subjugation of
all non-Jewish nations!
grea...@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> Roger Hughes wrote:
> >
> > In message 2F54FC...@phoenix.net> <32F5C2...@internetmci.com>
> > <32fbd9ff...@news.sure.net> <32F79C...@rio.com>
> > <32F932...@phoenix.net> - grea...@mindspring.com writes:
> > :>
> > :>Anne Frank a young Jewish girl hid from the Nazis in an Amsterdam attic
> > :>and maintained a diary of how she lived day to day. After the war her diary
> > :>was found. A local criminal had turned in the Frank family to the Nazis.
> > :>Little Anne Frank was carted off to a Concentration Camp. And three
> > :>month short of her 16th birthday ,at Bergen Belsen she was gassed, and
> > :>her remains and the remains of many, many young gassed children were
> > :>sent to the Crematorium Ovens to be burned to ashes.
> >
> > Herman, you're a complete idiot. Ann Frank was NOT gassed. She died of typhus
> > at Bergen-Belsen.
>
> Oh I understand! Your kind dragged a young innocent Jewish teenage and
> forced her into a Death Camp- Bergen-Belsen and she died of typhus!
> Lucky girl she died before being forced into the gas chamber.
>
> You cynical Nazi bastards will quibble over how they killed their prey
> by beatings,starvation,disease,shooting or gassing!
>
Herman, you spasmodic piece of human debris, explain why Jews under
their genocidal compact form their G-d killed off all the women and
children (not to mention the men) in all of the towns that they set
upon. Read Joshua and see how genocidal your sweet little kikes were to
Gentiles and then we may listen to your whining and wailing about what
some Gentiles finally did to Jews! Nazism was only about 12 years most
BUT your Jew killing spree against Gentiles lasted for thousands of
years!
"You cynical Jew kike bastards will quibble over how they killed their
prey by beatings, running through with sword or hacking to pieces with
sword!"
Doc Tavish
What Gentiles despise the most about Jewry is their total lack of never
admitting that they have done others wrong. Jews have been pogromed for
thousands of years and set upon BUT they have never [ever] done anything
to bring it upon themselves- oh no! Jews are the apples in G-d's eye and
Gentiles are beasts that must be tolerated. It's okay for Jews to kill
Gentiles but let one event and time in history give Jews what they have
dealt for thousands of years then they are ready to cry foul! Tough
luck. The Swiss and the Swedes are getting fed up with Jew whining too!
You make wake up one morning and find out that your former allies have
turned against you out of disgust!
Jurgen Schiller
grea...@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> Roger Hughes wrote:
> >
> > In message 2F54FC...@phoenix.net> <32F5C2...@internetmci.com>
> > <32fbd9ff...@news.sure.net> <32F79C...@rio.com>
> > <32F932...@phoenix.net> - grea...@mindspring.com writes:
> > :>
> > :>Anne Frank a young Jewish girl hid from the Nazis in an Amsterdam attic
> > :>and maintained a diary of how she lived day to day. After the war her diary
> > :>was found. A local criminal had turned in the Frank family to the Nazis.
> > :>Little Anne Frank was carted off to a Concentration Camp. And three
> > :>month short of her 16th birthday ,at Bergen Belsen she was gassed, and
> > :>her remains and the remains of many, many young gassed children were
> > :>sent to the Crematorium Ovens to be burned to ashes.
> >
> > Herman, you're a complete idiot. Ann Frank was NOT gassed. She died of typhus
> > at Bergen-Belsen.
Herman, yeah you numbnuts, read Joshua and see how the Jews would enter
Chuck Ferree
Chuck Ferree wrote:
Gee whizz, but I hate to break the news on tha doc krock. The kindly
old commie is bonkers. He talks to us through fantasy playmates.
Neither tha doc krock nor his fantasy playmates know what tha hell
they are talking about. "Herman" plays the good, but dumb guy role,
which gives tha doc krock an opportunity to kick "Herman" around in
order for tha doc krock to get his petty-anti-lies posted. The doc
krock seems to think this is a clever way to have it both ways.
Problem is, tha doc krock ain't smart enough to pull it off. So he
comes off looking like an idiot, which I'm sure is O.K. with tha doc
krock and all his slimey, slutty pretend German friends.
Well, if that's the best he can do, so be it. It's about on par with
that other idiot who likes to use WW-II heros names because he
couldn't pass the muster. Two pees in a pod.
Chuck
Mark Raven
On Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:37:29 GMT, Hoo...@holler.mil (General Bullmoose) wrote:
>On {Mon, 10 Feb 1997 22:29:57 GMT}, {dke...@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)}
wrote
>in {alt.revisionism}:...
>>Interesting. Matt Giwer, the well-known "leading revisionist
>>scholar", said something similar about the documents which
>>mention the "gas chamber" in Krema V and the "gassing cellar"
>>in Krema III: that these documents represent a "morbid sense
>>of humor" on the part of the SS-men who wrote them.
>...
> Who gives a rat's ass if it was a joke or not? It was only a
holocaust.
>Not something to get all worked up about.
>...
Now honestly. Is this the famous "Matt Giwer" you're all so worked up about?
I can hardly believe it. Either he's a lunatic who might well be ignored, or
he's an ADL plant to give you all an easy target.
.."well-known 'leading revisionist scholar'" indeed. Would you supply any
evidence for THAT assertion? Or was it another joke?
I can't believe that the Nizkorites occupy themselves with matters like this,
assuming he is indeed the character you're talking about.
Mark Raven
Jeffrey G. Brown
In article <3300FF...@phoenix.net>, tav...@phoenix.net wrote:
>Herman, you spasmodic piece of human debris...
"...I examine the manner of the debate and conduct. I know who is
telling the truth and who is lying by the tactics employed- the liar
always attacks the opposing person..."
-- Doc Tavish <tav...@phoenix.net>
-- Subject: Statistics Concerning Homosexuals
-- Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 14:57:05 -0600
-- Message-ID: <32D40A...@phoenix.net>
"Name calling only makes you look like a chronic boob to
those who know better!"
-- From: Doc Tavish <tav...@phoenix.net>
-- Subject: Statistically Speaking: Tavish is Still
Correct as Always & Only People W/O Answers
Name Call!
-- Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 20:26:12 -0600
-- Message-ID: <32F54C...@phoenix.net>
JGB
=====================================================================
Jeffrey G. Brown jeff_...@pol.com
"What's going to happen?" "Something wonderful..." -- '2010'
Jeffrey G. Brown
In article <330101...@phoenix.net>, "Jurgen Schiller"
(tav...@phoenix.net) wrote:
> [...deletia...]
>Doc Tavish
Tell us again, "Doc" about all these 'refugees' you've got living with
you... yet you can't seem to remember which one you're pretending to be.
As Lincoln said: tell the truth, and you'll have less to remember.
Jeffrey G. Brown
In article <330101...@phoenix.net>, tav...@phoenix.net wrote:
>Herman, yeah you numbnuts...
"...I examine the manner of the debate and conduct. I know who is
telling the truth and who is lying by the tactics employed- the liar
always attacks the opposing person..."
-- Doc Tavish <tav...@phoenix.net>
-- Subject: Statistics Concerning Homosexuals
-- Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 14:57:05 -0600
-- Message-ID: <32D40A...@phoenix.net>
"Name calling only makes you look like a chronic boob to
those who know better!"
-- From: Doc Tavish <tav...@phoenix.net>
-- Subject: Statistically Speaking: Tavish is Still
Correct as Always & Only People W/O Answers
Name Call!
-- Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 20:26:12 -0600
-- Message-ID: <32F54C...@phoenix.net>
> [...deletia...]
"...I examine the manner of the debate and conduct. I know who is
telling the truth and who is lying by the tactics employed- the liar
always attacks the opposing person..."
-- Doc Tavish <tav...@phoenix.net>
-- Subject: Statistics Concerning Homosexuals
-- Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 14:57:05 -0600
-- Message-ID: <32D40A...@phoenix.net>
"Name calling only makes you look like a chronic boob to
those who know better!"
-- From: Doc Tavish <tav...@phoenix.net>
-- Subject: Statistically Speaking: Tavish is Still
Correct as Always & Only People W/O Answers
Name Call!
-- Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 20:26:12 -0600
-- Message-ID: <32F54C...@phoenix.net>
JGB
Jeffrey G. Brown
>Were not the lives destroyed by
>your genocidal acts just as precious as Anne Frank's or were they simply
>expendable because Gentiles are but mere beasts?
Here, "Doc" demonstrates that the racists are nothing if not unimaginative
in their tactics. Nothing like making an accusation devoid of any evidence
when you've run out of spittle.
Tell us, "Doc"... what hard evidence do you have that "Herman" is
_personally_ responsible for any "Gentile" deaths?
Not that I expect an honest answer, mind you. "Doc" has already condemned
himself as both a "liar" and a "chronic boob". Of course, he's also made
it clear that he applies his definitions of these terms to everyone
_except_ himself...
Anthony Sabatini
Holo-Clone (tm) unit "Daniel Keren" <dke...@world.std.com> whined in
article <E5Ert...@world.std.com>...
> # that the examples from Matt Giwer represented a bit of hysteria
> # but did you really take this quote from Mr. Sabatini seriously?
>
> Of course. Let us look at it again:
>
> <begin quote from Sabatini's article>
>
> In Message-ID: <01bbffd9$30dc9850$4c7213cc@server>,
> the "Holocaust revisionist" Anthony Sabatini
> <anth...@infobahnos.com>, wrote the following about
> the members of the Nizkor project for documentation
> of the Holocaust:
>
> # Well, I don't know about the Communists, but if I
> # have my way, the only thing these Nizkorites will
> # be interrogating is the prison guard as to what time
> # lunch is served.
>
> <end quote from Sabatini's article>
>
> # It sounds like humor to me.
>
> scholar", said something similar about the documents which
> mention the "gas chamber" in Krema V and the "gassing cellar"
> in Krema III: that these documents represent a "morbid sense
> of humor" on the part of the SS-men who wrote them.
>
> what he wrote, is no less idiotic than Giwer's claim. Is there
> any evidence that he was joking? No.
>
> # There might even be a pun in there.
>
> A pun? A pun, you say? Boys and girls, can anyone see
> a pun in Sabatini's article?
>
> Where's the pun?
If you bothered to read the entire exchange, you _might_ have seen it. (But
then again, maybe not...) Let's take a look, OK?
<begin article>
Subject: Re: KGB Americas Monitoring Private Citizens? Yes!
From: "Anthony Sabatini" <anth...@infobahnos.com>
Date: 1997/01/11
Message-Id: <01bbffd9$30dc9850$4c7213cc@server>
References: <1997010823...@mailmasher.com>
<5b3enj$f...@news.usaor.net> <5b47b4$5...@news.usaor.net>
<5b49jj$i...@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <32D65D...@phoenix.net>
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Newsgroups:
alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-Power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Doc Tavish <tav...@phoenix.net> wrote in article
<32D65D...@phoenix.net>...
[snip]
> Wow! I am really impressed at the depths you Communist agents go to in
> monitoring the lives of private citizens! You are the dangerous group-
> not the private citizens you snoop on with your long hooked Khazar
> noses! "Ahhhh Chachacha", as the ol' snozola Jimmy Durante would say.
>
> Doc Tavish Watches North American Communist Activity
>
> Ken are your files on us going to be used eventually when we are rounded
> up and "interrogated"?
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Well, I don't know about the Communists, but if I have my way, the only
thing these Nizkorites will be interrogating is the prison guard as to what
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
time lunch is served.
[snip]
<end article>
Are you starting to see it, Mr. Keren? (Probably not...)
> # It will support the idea that you are truly threatened by silly
> # jokes like the one you quoted above.
>
> I don't feel threatened. Nazi punks don't rule the world yet,
Are you calling me a Nazi, Mr. Keren? Only a true, inbred Holo-Clone (tm)
would.
> and it doesn't seem this will happen in the near future. The
> purpose of the repost - as well as reposts about other attempts
> by "revisionists" to intimidate and persecute those who
> disagree with them - is to expose these Nazi punks for what
I did not post that because of disagreements, but rather due to their (in
my opinion illegally) keeping files on private citizens.
> they are: hypocrites who whine and screech about "freedom
> of speech", while simultaneously using Nazi-like methods to
> silence the opposition.
And you whine about and smear anyone you don't agree with. Want proof? I
will only be glad to post it. (Note: I have already posted a sample in a
response to your mindless drivel.)
> However, I understand Sabatini's frustration;
Fool. What makes you think I'm frustrated? Can it possibly be because, as
time progresses, less and less people buy into your fanciful tales? Can it
be because younger generations couldn't give a damn about your wild
stories? Could this be it? ROTFL.
> I hope it will
> make him happy to hear that, in the next few days, I'll post
> examples of attempts by other "revisionists" against free speech.
> He should not be there all alone.
How sweet...
[.sig snipped]
Sweet dreams, Danny-boy!
grea...@mindspring.com
>
> grea...@mindspring.com wrote:
> >
> > Roger Hughes wrote:
> > >
> > > In message 2F54FC...@phoenix.net> <32F5C2...@internetmci.com>
> > > <32fbd9ff...@news.sure.net> <32F79C...@rio.com>
> > > <32F932...@phoenix.net> - grea...@mindspring.com writes:
> > > :>
> > > :>Anne Frank a young Jewish girl hid from the Nazis in an Amsterdam attic
> > > :>and maintained a diary of how she lived day to day. After the war her diary
> > > :>was found. A local criminal had turned in the Frank family to the Nazis.
> > > :>Little Anne Frank was carted off to a Concentration Camp. And three
> > > :>month short of her 16th birthday ,at Bergen Belsen she was gassed, and
> > > :>her remains and the remains of many, many young gassed children were
> > > :>sent to the Crematorium Ovens to be burned to ashes.
> > >
> > > Herman, you're a complete idiot. Ann Frank was NOT gassed. She died of typhus
> > > at Bergen-Belsen.
starved to death not drowned. Not suffocated but were shot.
Can't you damn people get it all right. We had to do it. We had to kill
young children.
Chuck Ferree
Chuck writes for tha doc krock:
Better listen up, Herman, this guy has the word from "ON HIGH!" Him
and Jimmy Swigart two of a kind.
Daniel Keren
Mark Raven <mark...@mailmasher.com> writes:
# Dan, I have trouble believing that you really take
# Anthony Sabatini's remark seriously. Yes, it was
# humourous, and yes, it might even be said to have
# involved a pun.
Again: what he wrote is quoted below. If you have any
evidence that it was humorous, let's see it. If there's
a pun, tell us where it is.
# Meanwhile, you neglected to supply us with evidence about
# how the threat of improsonment might be taken seriously
# by Nizkorites.
Sabatini made a declaration of intent. Whether he will
ever have the power to imprison those who disagree with
him, is a different matter.
In Message-ID: <01bbffd9$30dc9850$4c7213cc@server>,
the "Holocaust revisionist" Anthony Sabatini
<anth...@infobahnos.com>, wrote the following about
the members of the Nizkor project for documentation
of the Holocaust:
# Well, I don't know about the Communists, but if I
# have my way, the only thing these Nizkorites will
# be interrogating is the prison guard as to what time
# lunch is served.
<end quote from Sabatini's article>
-Danny Keren.
Jubilation T. Cornpone
On {Wed, 12 Feb 1997 07:54:59 -0500}, {grea...@mindspring.com} wrote in
{alt.revisionism}:
[AG the goose]
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>--------------52A668EF35AF
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>--------------52A668EF35AF
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name="Rosen.txt"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>Content-Disposition: inline; filename="Rosen.txt"
>
>The other Rosenberg. Alfred Rosenberg
>Hitler’s chief racial ideologist.
>
>He too was obsessed by his belief in an “international Jewish conspiracy”
>
>The Nazi who was found guilty of extermination of Jews and participation in
>forced labor.
>The one who stood trial before the world.
>The one who was sentenced to death by hanging at Nuremberg.
>
>And long before the Nuremberg trials tens of thousands of American,
>British and Canadian died on the beaches of Normandy and in the fields of
>France, Holland, Belgium and tens of thousands more bled but survived.
>Just to stop these madmen.
And all this time I thought they fought to protect those madmen in
Russia.
However, most of those I talked to about why they fought said that it was
because their country asked them. The rest said they were drafted. Most of
those candidly said they did not see why they were fighting Germany while they
were insistant that fighting Japan was a good idea.
>And more than 30 million dead in Europe.
>Enough to build 600 Vietnam War Memorials!
>And for what?
>
>So the bastards with their obsession in an “international Jewish
>conspiracy” can spout their Jew Hating sentiments!
As with the civil war, purposes change. No, the civil war was not fought
to end slavery and no WW II was not fought to and anti-semitism. However the
former was at least a contributing factor to the civil war while the latter had
nothing whatsoever to do with WW II.
Are you demonstrating that you are a product of a public school history
education? If not, who does get the credit for your ignorance of WW II?
=====
Who was it who changed a rout into an utter defeat?
grea...@mindspring.com
Jubilation T. Cornpone wrote:
>
> On {Wed, 12 Feb 1997 07:54:59 -0500}, {grea...@mindspring.com} wrote in
> {alt.revisionism}:
> [AG the goose]
> >And long before the Nuremberg trials tens of thousands of American,
> >British and Canadian died on the beaches of Normandy and in the fields of
> >France, Holland, Belgium and tens of thousands more bled but survived.
> >Just to stop these madmen.
>
> And all this time I thought they fought to protect those madmen in
> Russia.
>
> However, most of those I talked to about why they fought said that it was
> because their country asked them. The rest said they were drafted. Most of
> those candidly said they did not see why they were fighting Germany while they
> were insistant that fighting Japan was a good idea.
You goddam Nazi revisionist. American soldiers in WWII were not stupid
mindless robots like your admiring Nazis.
Every last one of those brave men who fought and died for us so you be
free to spout your Anti-american rhetoric.
Every last one of them together with our allies defeated the entrenched
German War machine.
Every last one of them left their home and comfort of America, farmers
and mechanics, laborers and Medical Doctors fought bravely, with
determination and success.
Every last one of them was a hero.
What the hell did you do for this country, other than bad mouth it?
Herman
Jessica Woods
--
THE LAST PATROL
"Operation Thunderstorm"
lpa...@aye.net
http://www.aye.net./~emtwoods/
Mike Woods: mwo...@aye.net
Jessica Woods: emtw...@aye.net
Chris Hamrick: Tsto...@prodigy.net
Mark Raven
Danny Keren wrote:
>Mark Raven <mark...@mailmasher.com> writes:
># Dan, I have trouble believing that you really take
># Anthony Sabatini's remark seriously. Yes, it was
># humourous, and yes, it might even be said to have
># involved a pun.
>Again: what he wrote is quoted below. If you have any
>evidence that it was humorous, let's see it. If there's
>a pun, tell us where it is.
Oddly enough, it was in the post you responded to, but for some reason you
decided to delete the relevant material and then ask where it was. I will
post it again:
" The play on words would relate to multiple meanings of the word
"interrogate". I explain this now even though I am beginning to suspect that
your objection was disingenuous. "
"Disingenuous" was clearly a kind word. You're simply dishonest. Why play
such a stupid game? Anyone can see what the joke was. Anyone but you, I
guess. And anyone can see that I explained it in my previous post. You
simply decided to ignore (and, in your response, delete) the parts that didn't
support your stupid "point" about Mr Sabatini. Who exactly do you think
you're fooling?
Then, of course, for the third consecutive time you ignored (and deleted) the
only point that might give your "argument" some credence, namely:
" Meanwhile, you neglected to supply us with evidence about how the threat of
improsonment might be taken seriously by Nizkorites.
For your convenience, I will reproduce that section of my note:
'So that we might take you seriously, would you please give us examples where
people were imprisoned for stating Holocaust Orthodoxy? Or the Official
Story, or whatever you want to call it. Examples, please? They would make
your argument a bit more credible. You know that people are already in jail
for -questioning- that Story. So give us examples where people have been
imprisoned for stating the approved version of the story. It will support the
idea that you are truly threatened by silly jokes like the one you quoted
above. Examples, please?'"
It's so -blatant-, Mr. Keren. You're embarrassing your fellow Nizkorites, and
that takes some doing. But why?
>Sabatini made a declaration of intent. Whether he will
>ever have the power to imprison those who disagree with
>him, is a different matter.
>In Message-ID: <01bbffd9$30dc9850$4c7213cc@server>,
>the "Holocaust revisionist" Anthony Sabatini
><anth...@infobahnos.com>, wrote the following about
>the members of the Nizkor project for documentation
>of the Holocaust:
># Well, I don't know about the Communists, but if I
># have my way, the only thing these Nizkorites will
># be interrogating is the prison guard as to what time
># lunch is served.
><end quote from Sabatini's article>
>-Danny Keren.
Mark Raven
Mark Raven
Anthony Sabatini
In message-Id <E4zys...@world.std.com>, the Holo-Clone (tm) "Daniel
Keren" said:
I don't buy that. You "retired"? At such a young age? Give
me a stinkin' break. You're just too stupid to find a decent
job. You can't even handle highschool math. Want me to prove
it yet again? And, of course, there's your charming
personality, which really doesn't help.
<end quote from Keren's article>
But, do not forget: Holo-Clones (tm) claim that they are honest people that
simply want to "educate" the masses...
Then, in message-Id <E4xyL...@world.std.com> the Holo-Clone (tm) "Daniel
Keren" said:
He's just a hypocritical pig, with an inferiority complex
which drives him up the wall. So he takes it out on the
net. He's the electronic equivalent of a drunkard cursing
the people who pass his corner. He's just a senile, revolting
old swine. No more, no less.
<end quote from Keren's article>
But, do not forget: Holo-Clones (tm) claim that it is the "revisionists"
who resort to petty insults...
Another time, in message-id <E3Mpo...@world.std.com>, the Holo-Clone (tm)
"Daniel Keren" said:
I never called this lying scumbag a "child molester". I did call
him a lying Nazi bastard and an antisemite, because that's what
he obviously is; he posts numerous lies
<end quote from Keren's article>
But, do not forget: Holo-Clones (tm) claim that it is the "revisionists"
who use foul and abusive language...
In yet another article (message-id <E3rFJ...@world.std.com>), the
Holo-Clone (tm) "Daniel Keren" said:
Why do you have to keep posting such incredibly idiotic
articles, proving that you are both very ignorant and
extremely stupid? Do you get a pleasure out of this? How
odd.
<end quote from Keren's article>
But, do not forget: Holo-Clones (tm) claim that it is the "revisionists"
who attack others...
And in article message-id <E3pJy...@world.std.com>, the Holo-Clone (tm)
"Daniel Keren" said:
No, it is the world of senile, drunkard, unemployed losers
such as yourself, Matt.
Some people can be helped, after they understand that they are
sick. You, however, are in such a state that it is impossible
for you to realize that you are sick.
There is nothing to do for you; you'll continue to be a vulgar,
stupid, and ignorant troll, for the rest of your life. It will
just become worse as you grow older.
And, during all these years, you will really believe that you
are a smart person and that you are winning.
It's quite pathetic, really. But, hey, it's your life, if
that's an appropriate term.
<end quote from Keren's article>
But, do not forget: Holo-Clones (tm) claim that "revisionists" never
discuss the topic at hand, but rather go on tirades against their
detractors...
Anthony Sabatini
Michael P. Stein <mst...@access4.digex.net> wrote in article
<5djrs1$j...@access4.digex.net>...
> In article <01bc1431$28b00ab0$267213cc@server>,
> Anthony Sabatini <anth...@infobahnos.com> wrote:
> > Michael P. Stein <mst...@access1.digex.net> wrote in article
> > <5dbm39$l...@access1.digex.net>...
> > > In article <01bc1248$404b6740$717213cc@server>,
> > > Anthony Sabatini <anth...@infobahnos.com> wrote:
> > > >Chuck Ferree <chu...@rio.com> wrote in article
> > <32F4A5...@rio.com>...
> > > >> Chuck Ferree wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Mr. Sabatini, seems to be really pushing the envelope. He claims
he is
> >
> > > >> not a denier, yet denies very important, and historically proven
> > > >> Holocaust facts.
> > > >
> > > >It is you and your 'friends' that have branded me a denier, and only
> > > >because I do not believe "millions" died. I thought "deniers" were
those
> > > >who don't believe the Holocaust happened at all...
> > >
> > > Well, let me put it to you this way. I have been accused of
denying
> > > Jesus and Christianity. But I think that's a lie. I believe that
there
> > > was a Jesus of Nazareth, who really was crucified. I don't believe
he
> > was
> > > born to a virgin, I don't believe he turned water into wine, I don't
> > > believe he was the Messiah, I don't believe he rose from the dead.
But
> > he
> > > was a great teacher who had a lot of worthwhile things to say. So
I'm
> > not
> > > a Christianity denier. Right?
> >
> > No, I would not call you a "Christianity denier".
>
> Funny, you should. I was being quite ironic in my last message.
I'm sorry, I thought you were referring to "Christianity denier" as a slur,
the way you and your Holo-Clone (tm) 'buddies' refer to me.
> Language is a matter of social convention. The color of snow is
> called, in English, "white." But there is nothing magical about the
> word; we could call it "blanc" or "weiss" or "bzork" as long as
> everyone agreed that this pattern of letters/sounds referred to
> the-color-that-snow-is. But assuming that we both are speaking English,
> if I claim that the natural color of snow is green then I am implicitly
> denying that snow is white.
>
> There are some words which are, in a sense, a shorthand for a fairly
> large and complex set of attributes. "Christianity" is one of those
> words. There are fringe aspects about which people disagree - e.g., does
> the host really _become_ the body of Jesus Christ or not - while still
> being recognizable as what everyone agrees is Christian. But there are
> some core aspects which, I submit, are so integral to the definition of
> the word, in its socially accepted meaning, that to deny one of those
> aspects is to deny the thing itself.
>
> I further submit that the Messiah-hood of Jesus is one of the aspects
> of Christianity which is absolutely essential to the definition. To deny
> that tenet is indeed to deny "Christianity," no matter how many of the
> moral teachings contained in the Gospels one accepts. I had hoped you
> would see that my previous tongue-in-cheek response about not being a
> "Christianity denier" involved an illicit redefinition of "Christianity"
> to exclude one of its fundamental and integral aspects. It is as if I
had
> said, "I don't deny that snow is white. I know that I say that snow is
> green, but I redefine green to be a shade of white, so I am really not a
> white snow denier."
>
> The Holocaust is another complex term. The exact numbers are open to
> discussion. But one of the central aspects is that there was mass murder
> and that it was official policy - I earlier posted and emailed to you a
> list of attributes of Holocaust denial. When you called murder
> "relatively rare," you denied one of the fundamental and integral
aspects
> of the core meaning of that which is represented by the term "Holocaust"
> as generally defined.
>
> Actually, there is one distinction _I_ draw which others may disagree
> with. I used my views on Christianity only as an example to illustrate a
> point. Under ordinary circumstances I do not make a point of going
around
> expressing public disbelief in Christianity. I have absolutely no desire
> to persuade anyone to share my (dis)belief on that issue. I will not
> describe as a holocaust denier anyone who does not go out of their way to
> _share_ their position, to persuade others of it. You will note that I
> have said you made comments _close_ to Holocaust denial, but I did not
> accuse you of it flat out. That is because I have not reached a verdict
> on your intentions.
Well, thanks for the long vote of confidence...I think.
> > You have the choice
> > whether to believe or not. You see, Mr. Stein, unlike you and your
fellow
> > cronies, I feel no compulsion to impose my beliefs on others.
>
> Where, praytell, have I ever tried to impose my beliefs on others?
> Produce one shred of evidence that I have ever advocated or even condoned
> imposing any penalty - whether jailing, loss of job, or obscene phone
> calls - on anyone who does not share my beliefs? I have gone on record
as
> opposing any restrictions on revisionist speech. If you like, I can
> supply you with the names of revisionists to whom I have offered my
> cooperation in tracking down people who have mailbombed them - you can
ask
> them if they think I'm only talk on this issue.
You are correct here. I apologize for accusing you of sharing this
particular (annoying) trait with your Holo-Clone (tm) buddies.
> _You_, on the other hand, have expressed approval for jailing those
> whose _speech_ you consider sleazy tactics. So just who is trying to
> impose his beliefs on whom here?
This is patently false. Nowhere in my text do I state my reason for saying
this as being disagreement. It was in response to someone asking what
Nizkor intended to do with the files they keep on people. That person asked
if the rest of us would be "interrogated" using this information. This is
why I replied about hoping Nizkor would "interrogate" the prison guard as
to what time lunch would be served.
Mr. Stein, I believe you have jumped to a conclusion here, something which
you have reprimanded me for. Do you now not also deserve the same
treatment?
> You've stated your opinions. I've stated my opinions about your
> opinions. If your statement of opinion is not an attempt to impose them
> on me, how is my statement of contrary opinion - rude as you may think it
> - an attempt to impose my beliefs on you?
I was not referring to your statements in any particular thread, but rather
when taken as a whole, and particularly when coupled with the various texts
available at the Nizkor site. Further, you know damn well that much that is
written here by Nizkor is intended for lurkers. This is an underhanded
technique, and you know this as well.
> > Now let me ask you a few questions, Mr. Stein. Since I have answered
yours,
> > I hope you will extend me the same courtesy.
>
> Of course. It is wise to seek information before forming opinions,
> and if you had followed that principle from the first, you might not have
> run into nearly so much flak here (especially from me). You're quite
> right that I haven't had much respect for your opinions, but if you think
> it's because of what they are, you're wrong. It is in large part because
> you formed them and announced them to the world without really making
what
> I consider even a halfway reasonable attempt to educate yourself on the
> available evidence.
You still maintain that alt.revisionism is some kind of serious, scientific
"talk-line", when in fact it is nothing more than another newsgroup on the
Net. Do you honestly believe that anything that is said here will lead to
some revolutionary change in the world?
> You waltzed into alt.revisionism with a "theory" based on what
> appeared to be about two nanoseconds worth of study (and nothing you've
> said since then gives me any reason to change that opinion). You said
you
> wanted to know what people thought. Well, you got _exactly_ what you
> _claimed_ you wanted. Trouble is, people (myself included) thought you
> were a bloody fool, and said so, some none too gently. (Some said worse.)
You are not being fair here. I clearly stated many times that I am not an
historian, and that I have no intention of "proving" my claims here to
change the world. I merely wanted to toss some ideas around, but fell into
a group of foul-mouthed miscreants who take themselves far too seriously.
(And you certainly belong to the latter camp!)
> Now instead of remedying the holes in your knowlege, you seem to have
> decided that you are just going to get even with all the mean nasty
> bullies like me who sneered at that bright shiny theory of which you were
> so proud. Oh, gosh, no, what happened couldn't POSSIBLY be due to
> ANYTHING you did, like shooting off your mouth in ignorance. Your
> attitude doesn't exactly give me reason to change my opinion of you.
You are again reasoning from a false pretension (i.e., that this newsgroup
serves some serious, scientific need). As such, your argument here is
meaningless.
> Remember, nobody came looking for you to rain on your parade. _You_
> took it upon yourself to come _here_, into a newsgroup where some of us
> have been participating for three years and even longer, and spending
> hours in the library reading material. And you decided _you_ were going
> to announce your pet theory (how many milliseconds of research did you do
> to come up with it?) in this environment and expect to get - what?
> Showers of praise for your brilliant scholarship and insight? *snort*
Get
> real!
See above. You and your Holo-Clone (tm) 'buddies' have insulted, smeared
and belittled me, even after I announced that I was not an historian. This
type of behavior is disgusting, and that I have now joined the battle
_using your own tactics_, I see little need for you to chastise me, or
validity to this particular argument of yours.
> I have much better relations with, e.g., Ehrlich606. I may disagree
> with him, but I have more respect for his opinions in general. It is
> because he has a much better grasp of what it is he is disagreeing with
> than you do.
This is meaningless.
> And your lack of care is not just limited to the Holocaust. Again, I
> challenge you to produce evidence that I am, "unlike you," trying to
> "impose" my beliefs on others. Persuade, yes. (And there's a good
chance
> you don't even realize what beliefs I am and am not trying to persuade
> people _of_ - but I will say rather enigmatically that I don't consider
> that to be your fault.) But "impose?" Of the two of us, you are the
only
> one who has called for jailing someone you disagree with. Yet you accuse
> _me_ of trying to impose _my_ beliefs. As I said, you are a hypocrite.
> Keep up the false claims about my views and intentions and you can add
> "shameless liar" to your list of attributes, absolutely free.
See above.
> > How would you feel if you lived in a country where questioning the
validity
> > of Jesus Christ as divine was a criminal offence?
>
> Wouldn't like it. Fortunately I don't live in such a country. I
also
> don't live in a country where questioning the Holocaust is a criminal
> offense. I intend to keep it that way if I have any say in the matter.
I
> have publicly stated that other countries are wrong in doing so on both
> moral and pragmatic grounds.
>
> How would you like it if someone accused you of wanting to impose
> criminal penalties for disbelief in Christianity simply because some
other
> Christians did so? You objected when Mark Van Alstine called you
> antisemitic because of your position on the Holocaust. You will recall
> that twice I voiced public disagreement with his position. Yet here you
> seem to be trying to insinuate that I am in agreement with censoring
> Holocaust denial simply because a few of those who agree with my views on
> the intellectual corruption of Holocaust denial have (much against my
> wishes) done so in other countries. Some thanks I get for defending you
> against an unfounded accusation!
See above. (And I will now extend my thanks for you opinion regarding my
alleged anti-Semitism and Nazi apologia.)
> > What would you do if the Catholic Church, for example, kept files on
what
> > you publicly say (on Usenet) regarding your disbelief?
>
> Nothing. The Catholic Church has no power (at least in America) to
do
> anything to me based on those files.
Ah, but what if they did? What if the Church decided to send your file(s)
to your employer, for example?
> But more to the point, I post to Usenet with the knowledge and
> _intent_ that the whole wide world could read what I write. It is
> absolutely incomprehensible to me that I should be upset by someone doing
> with my posts _exactly_ what I intended to be done with them - viz.,
> reading them. If they keep files on what I say in a public forum, and
> reread it, so much the better! Maybe then they'll learn that I am right
> and they are wrong! :) :) :)
>
> As long as the _whole_ file is open for inspection (as it is on
> Nizkor), and there is no deceptive editing (which there is not, despite
> Matt Giwer's claims - neither he nor anyone else has ever demonstrated
any
> difference in a Nizkor post from the DejaNews or AltaVista version), it
is
> my problem if I've said something stupid (which, on occasion, I have).
> The words I say are what they are, and they don't suddenly shift meaning
> because they're in a church file as opposed to your news server. If I
> apologize for my stupidity, and that apology is also in the file, I am
> content.
Another false assumption. I have no problem with DejaNews or Alta Vista
keeping my posts, because _that is what they do_. This is their "mission"
here -- nothing more, nothing less. Nizkor, on the other hand, has a
distinctive and emotionally-charged objective. I have given this example
before, but imagine yourself leafing through the FBI's Most Wanted list,
when all of a sudden you find *your* name there. The FBI assures you that
you are not a criminal, but your name (and photograph) remain there just
the same. My problem, then, is the _context_ in which my posts are archived
at Nizkor. Is this clearer for you?
> Intellectual consistency is a warm puppy.
As opposed to a cold one?
> > How would you react if Protestants, for instance, kept showing repeated
> > disdain for your beliefs?
>
> It would depend on the circumstances and the exact expression of that
> disdain. I'm not trying to be evasive. I really cannot think of how to
> give a general answer which will give you a reliable understanding of how
> I would react in a specific situation. I could come up with some
> hypothetical examples myself, but there might be some cases which _you_
> might think very close to the example, yet which would cause me to react
> significantly differently. Also, what I come up with as an example might
> not be anywhere close to a case you would like to know about. If you
give
> me a more concrete situation I hope I can respond to it in a meaningful
> way.
>
> Just as an example of what I'm talking about, I'd certainly have a
> more annoyed reaction to someone coming to my door to tell me that I need
> to change my beliefs than I would if I walked into a church of my own
> volition and heard the same thing. In the first case, someone took it
> upon themselves to seek me out and lecture me. In the second case, it is
> my fault for being there to hear something that contradicts my opinions,
> and it is _my_ duty to deal with it, not _theirs_ to be careful not to
> offend me. I walked into _their_ turf. It makes a difference, I think.
>
> And you know what? The thing I chiefly resent about the first case
> above is not that they're denigrating my beliefs by telling me I need to
> change them. It's that they are _wasting my time_. I have better uses
> for it.
Think of how you and your 'buddies' have acted with me; this will give you
a better idea of what I mean.
> > What if one or two of them public slandered you by calling you
> > anti-Christian, a Christ-killer, etc.?
>
> I'd say they were wrong. I'd point out they had no evidence of my
> anti-Christianity, and that I was not around two thousand years ago. I
> will remind you that I pointed out in public, in response to Mark Van
> Alstine's accusation, that I had seen no evidence of antisemitism on your
> part.
>
> On the other hand, they could call me a Christianity denier. It
would
> be true. Therefore it would not be slander.
>
> To see actual examples of my responses in such circumstances, check
> out my responses on the Talmud distortions, the articles which falsely
> claim that the Talmud teaches that when a grown man has sex with a girl
> under three years and a day old, it is nothing. I actually am much more
> patient with those - at least on the first go-round, when I tell the
> _whole_ story and give the references - because I give them the benefit
of
> the doubt and assume they are innocently repeating someone else's
> persuasive lie-by-omission.
>
> Intellectual consistency is a warm puppy.
Whoa! Hold on their a sec! I'd like you to assume that "Christ-killer" had
the same social stigma attached to it as "anti-Semite" and/or "Nazi".
> > What would you do if you heard that a government from another country
where
> > you had fellow disbelievers were contemplating laws against such
disbelief?
>
> I would register my opposition to it in some way. I suppose my
> actions would depend in part on how effective I thought they would be.
> The actions might include letter writing, protests, participation in a
> boycott, etc. As a concrete example, I'm concerned about the human
rights
> situation in China, but they seem to be quite content to ignore protests.
> I don't strictly boycott Chinese goods - they are simply too pervasive to
> make such purity possible - but if there is a Chinese and a non-Chinese
> product available, I do take that into consideration before buying.
And just how "effective" do you think this is?
> In response to a question about my views about imposing controls on
> the Internet to combat "hate speech," which was under consideration in
> Canada, I wrote to express my opposition to controls. You see, you don't
> even have to give me a hypothetical based on self-interest. I've got
> real-world examples to show I'm not just an empty shirt on this issue. I
> speak up for my opponents when I think truth and justice is on their side
> - as you should know from the episode with Mark Van Alstine calling you
an
> antisemite.
Yes, I appreciate that.
> Intellectual consistency is a warm puppy.
>
>
> > Please answer each question above without diverting the topic. Thank
you.
>
> I trust my answers have been sufficiently clear and to the point.
One
> of the questions was too broad to give a very meaningful answer, but if
> you draw it more narrowly I might be able to respond better.
[.sig snipped]
LUEK
grea...@mindspring.com wrote:
>Every last one of those brave men who fought and died for us so you be
>free to spout your Anti-american rhetoric.
>Every last one of them together with our allies defeated the entrenched
>German War machine.
>Every last one of them left their home and comfort of America, farmers
>and mechanics, laborers and Medical Doctors fought bravely, with
>determination and success.
>Every last one of them was a hero.
>Herman
Well Herman how about Private Slovik? Huh, no response? Thought so.
Ha! Ha!