Can we be civilized?

Bernhard van Staveren

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Jan 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/6/97

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To all parties involved, also in the newsgroup alt.irc.undernet.

I'm asking myself if this matter can be handled in a civilized way,
so far all that has been going on basically is mud-throwing, slander,
libel and a whole lot of other things.

I invite all people involved to join the channel #madcat, (on the Undernet,
on the 10th of January, 14:00 GMT. For people in the USA that will be
about 8:00 in the morning.) to try and reason this one out. I do not see
why all this is going on when the simplest way to get this problem solved
is to -talk-. If anyone doesn't want me doing this (opening a channel
where this can be discussed) let me know a.s.a.p.

Greetings,

Mandar Mirashi

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Jan 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/6/97

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In article <852562...@xirian.demon.nl>,

Bernhard van Staveren <mad...@xirian.demon.nl> wrote:
> To all parties involved, also in the newsgroup alt.irc.undernet.
>
> I'm asking myself if this matter can be handled in a civilized way,
>so far all that has been going on basically is mud-throwing, slander,
>libel and a whole lot of other things.
>
> I invite all people involved to join the channel #madcat, (on the Undernet,
>on the 10th of January, 14:00 GMT. For people in the USA that will be
>about 8:00 in the morning.) to try and reason this one out. I do not see
>why all this is going on when the simplest way to get this problem solved
>is to -talk-. If anyone doesn't want me doing this (opening a channel
>where this can be discussed) let me know a.s.a.p.
>
>Greetings,
>

Sigh...many of us have tried to resolve this online. They absolutely fail
to see the point Bernhard. For what it's worth, if you can shift the
meeting time to 1:00 GMT on Saturday (8:00 pm EST Fri), I'll be there.

Previous conversations have gone like this:

"So why don't you shut down the channels?"

"Well...we explained why - channel names are not illegal, we are working
with law enforcement in tracking down these criminals, which is a much
more effective way to combat the problem and doesn't open us up for legal
liability"

"But you ban users and +im channels ... shut the porn channels too!"

"We do ban people who do not obey the AUP (acceptable use policies). In
case of channels, there's no effective way to shut down a channel
permanently - any measure is temporary at best. When we notice illegal
activity we report it to law enforcement. We do not CENSOR channels.
FYI, the approach *has* been tried by other operators who inadvertently
ended up interfering with an FBI investigation of online porn".

"But you police channels..shut them down!"

"I just explained why we can't and no, we don't police channels - we are
not policemen. #hacktheirc was +im'ed temporarily due to mass messages
asking people to join it and asked to perform commands that could
compromise their system. It was not censored based on content. FYI, you
can /join #hacktheirc, and #hackteach has been open all this while
to prove this point"

"Admit it...Rev has got you! You're a kidporn supporter."

"Sigh"

It's like talking to a brick wall.

In spite of numerous personal attacks against myself, I'm willing to
reason with these people. So would be a lot of IRC users who see beyond
their dogma. #eboai would love to attend I'm sure.

Of course, if this effort fails (personally I feel it is doomed), then
every venue would have been exhausted. The rest would be for law enforcement
and the justice system to decide, when they do get involved and we will
continue to counter their misleading propaganda.

Thanks for the effort..

Mmmm

--
Mandar Mirashi
Maintainer: ftp.undernet.org, Undernet IRC FAQ.
ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/alt.irc.undernet
For IRC help/Undernet information, check out http://www.undernet.org

Chris Campbell

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Jan 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/6/97

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Sorry, but I work for a living, and I'm sure the others do too. 8am on a
Friday is not a good time. I would guess that Mandar, Don and RevWhite also
work. Jeff is in school at that time. Since most of this is between those
four, and possibly also Angel why not set it on Saturday.

Besides, exactly what posts have YOU been reading? I don't think, in fact
cannot even imagine, RevWhite, Don Ellis, Mandar and TerraByte having
anything even APPROACHING a civilized discussion.

Bernhard van Staveren <mad...@xirian.demon.nl> wrote in article
<852562...@xirian.demon.nl>...

> To all parties involved, also in the newsgroup alt.irc.undernet.
>
> I'm asking myself if this matter can be handled in a civilized way,
> so far all that has been going on basically is mud-throwing, slander,
> libel and a whole lot of other things.
>
> I invite all people involved to join the channel #madcat, (on the
Undernet,
> on the 10th of January, 14:00 GMT. For people in the USA that will be
> about 8:00 in the morning.) to try and reason this one out. I do not see
> why all this is going on when the simplest way to get this problem solved
> is to -talk-. If anyone doesn't want me doing this (opening a channel
> where this can be discussed) let me know a.s.a.p.
>
> Greetings,
>

Mandar Mirashi

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Jan 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/6/97

to

Mandar Mirashi wrote:
>
> In article <852562...@xirian.demon.nl>,

> Bernhard van Staveren <mad...@xirian.demon.nl> wrote:
> > To all parties involved, also in the newsgroup alt.irc.undernet.
> >
> > I'm asking myself if this matter can be handled in a civilized way,
> >so far all that has been going on basically is mud-throwing, slander,
> >libel and a whole lot of other things.
> >
> > I invite all people involved to join the channel #madcat, (on the Undernet,
> >on the 10th of January, 14:00 GMT. For people in the USA that will be
> >about 8:00 in the morning.) to try and reason this one out. I do not see
> >why all this is going on when the simplest way to get this problem solved
> >is to -talk-. If anyone doesn't want me doing this (opening a channel
> >where this can be discussed) let me know a.s.a.p.
> >
> >Greetings,
> >
>

I will be there. Friday 8pm. You got it. No name calling by either side
agreed? No mudslining etc. Just logical talk. If they make sense, I will
step aside and let law enforcement officals do their thing. If nothing
is resolved, then whatever. I know I said I was not going to post but
this needs to end. I will be there.

Thanks...

RevWhite
--
Funny everyone is a bigot... But almost no one admits to it.

Bernhard van Staveren

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Jan 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/7/97

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In article <5arb3k$i...@kiowa.wildstar.net>
man...@kiowa.wildstar.net "Mandar Mirashi" writes:

| Sigh...many of us have tried to resolve this online. They absolutely fail
| to see the point Bernhard. For what it's worth, if you can shift the
| meeting time to 1:00 GMT on Saturday (8:00 pm EST Fri), I'll be there.

Hmm, sure... might have some trouble getting on at that time since everyone
else in the house is doing Zzz catching but okay.. hell.. back to the old
days of IRC-ing till 3am =]

| It's like talking to a brick wall.

Looks like it, oh well... maybe... maybe... really maybe they'll listen
now.

| In spite of numerous personal attacks against myself, I'm willing to
| reason with these people. So would be a lot of IRC users who see beyond
| their dogma. #eboai would love to attend I'm sure.

Everyone's free to drop in =]

| Of course, if this effort fails (personally I feel it is doomed), then
| every venue would have been exhausted.

Heheh... true, but it's worth a try IMO...

| The rest would be for law enforcement
| and the justice system to decide, when they do get involved and we will
| continue to counter their misleading propaganda.

Woohoo! =] If you or Undernet ever get dragged into court, you've got
my support =]

| Thanks for the effort..
NP dude =] Hate to see the Undernet go down because 2 eedjots start playing.

Jason T. Nelson

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Jan 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/7/97

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On Mon, 06 Jan 1997 22:01:23 -0500, Bigot^H^H^H^H^HRevWhite <psb...@ibm.net>
scribbled:

>I will be there. Friday 8pm. You got it. No name calling by either side
>agreed? No mudslining etc. Just logical talk. If they make sense, I will
>step aside and let law enforcement officals do their thing. If nothing
>is resolved, then whatever. I know I said I was not going to post but
>this needs to end. I will be there.

You'll be there in the same way an FBI official will cart Mmmm off to jail?
In the same way that you said you would get his boss to harrass him about
this foolishness? You're well beyond logical talk considering libel and
related legally incorrect activities seem to be your sole method of
conversation.

>Funny everyone is a bigot... But almost no one admits to it.

Take the first step; perhaps you should start a 12-step program to help
others with the same problem you have?

--
Jason T. Nelson <j...@mc.com>
Mercury Computer Systems, Inc Chelmsford, MA
PGP fingerprint = C5 13 96 4F 7C 75 7E 4B AB 0A A4 CE AA 4C 43 72
disclaimer: I speak for no one but myself.

robert

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Jan 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/7/97

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From: Mandar Mirashi <psb...@ibm.net>
References: <852562...@xirian.demon.nl> <5arb3k$i...@kiowa.wildstar.net>
<32D1BC...@geocities.com>

man...@alias.undernet.org:
[blah]

Do you know that in the Netherlands, pretending to be someone else is
illegal?

robert

Craig Brown

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Jan 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/7/97

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Mandar Mirashi <psb...@ibm.net> wrote in article
<32D1BC...@geocities.com>...
> Mandar Mirashi wrote:

> I will be there. Friday 8pm. You got it. No name calling by either side
> agreed? No mudslining etc. Just logical talk. If they make sense, I will
> step aside and let law enforcement officals do their thing. If nothing
> is resolved, then whatever. I know I said I was not going to post but
> this needs to end. I will be there.
>

> Thanks...
>
> RevWhite
> --

> Funny everyone is a bigot... But almost no one admits to it.

I'm glad to see someone at psb...@ibm.net did a wonderful job at trying
to fake Mandar...notice who susposedly wrote the message (Mandar) and who
signed the message (RevWhite)

--

Craig Brown
E-Mail: cwb...@MNSi.net

Arnold Hendriks

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Jan 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/7/97

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robert (rob...@il.ft.hse.nl) wrote:
> Do you know that in the Netherlands, pretending to be someone else is
> illegal?
> robert

only the punishment is too light.

--
May the Carrier be with you,
Arnold Hendriks

Email: jbu...@worldonline.nl Netmail: 2:282/1.1 IRC: UniLynx

. robert can't do it, Artoo. robert can't go on alone. -Luke

Bernhard van Staveren

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Jan 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/7/97

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Rev,

Okay, logical (read: civilized, adult) convo only, mudslinging, swearing,
namecalling etc. is a no go.

Thanks for responding, lets make it worthwile.

robert

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Jan 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM1/9/97

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st88...@rulfsw.fsw.leidenuniv.nl:
>Not true. Giving a name that is not yours to a policeman when he asks
>for your name is illegal. Pretending to be somebody else is not.

I can go around and pretend to be you? I dont think so.

>If it would be, all hulpsinterklazen would have been punished. They are
>not.

Hehehe, very convincing :)

robert