LSH: post-Zero Hour SPOILERS
Elaine & Trent
Yesterday, I went to a con in Delaware to ask Mark Waid (LSH writer)
why I should keep buying the LSH books after Zero Hour. Basically, I've been
readong LSH on and off for the past 12 years, and, IMHO, v4 has been a
complete waste of paper since issue #5. And it's only gotten worse ever
since. McCraw's "Legion on the run" storyline failed to impress me, and that
would be the last straw for me, barring Waid saving the title via Zero Hour.
Well, I talked to him about it, and I believe the title is _saved_.
POST ZERO HOUR SPOILERS FOLLOW!
AND MY EDITOR CAN'T DO ^L!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
First, Mark Waid agrees with me, the current series sucks. The
continuity has been mucked about with so many times that _no_one_ can
understand the book or establish a coherent LSH history. And DC, KC Carlson,
and Paul Levitz agree too.
So, the burning question: what LSH continuity will survive Zero Hour?
The answer: NONE OF IT.
It's ALL GONE. After Zero Hour, LSH continuity will restart at day
one, and proceed from there in _LSH_ & _Legionnaires_. One team with 2
monthly titles.
As revealed in _Previews_, the two 0 issues will retell the origin of
the LSH. What we didn't know until now is that the monthlies will keep going
from that point, not jump ahead. The new stories will adhere to the
framework of the _Adventure_ era, but will differ slightly and embellish
greatly.
So all those retcons you don't like are gone. SW6 -- gone.
Proty/Garth -- gone.
What will the new LSH be like? There will be codenames. Mark fought
against it, but DC wants to stick with the newer ones (Triad, Apparition).
The year will be 2995 (i.e. the assassination attempt on Brande takes place
in the year 2995 now, so that the books can be continually set 1000 years in
the future from the publishing date, like before). Kid Quantum _is_ staying,
and will be included in the first wave of new members. New members will
still join in the same order as previously established, but why they join may
be different. The 30th century will be isolated from the 20th century.
There is no _one_ heroic influence on the LSH like before (previously,
Superboy & Valor). Rather, the Legions inspiration will be the entire 20c
heroic age. Brande is not necessarily the Durlan from L.E.G.I.O.N. Phase is
staying in the 20c, and there is a good explanation for how she got there,
but Mark wouldn't tell me what it is. Brande will still be a billionaire,
the "third richest man in the galaxy," but his company does not build stars.
Rather, Brande Industries is the only company that knows how to build
faster-than-light starship drives. The United Planets will be in its
infancy. Therefore, the UP is dependent on Brande for stardrives, and Brande
is dependent on UP sanction of the LSH (otherwise a group of 15 year old
heroes wouldn't have nearly enough leeway as _Adventure_Comics_ portrays).
Eventually, however, the LSH will be an independent entity (because teenage
superheroes subject to adult guardians are boring). The 20c Valor still
exists, but there is no book to house his exploits, so he's kinda in comics
limbo now. Mark really likes the idea of him seeding the UP worlds, however,
so he'll probably still do that, go into the Buffer Zone for 1000 years, and
pop out in the 30c to join the LSH. Rond Vidar, if he shows up, won't be
a Green Lantern anymore. Zero Hour will have no effect, sadly, on Emerald
Twilight. That's staying. Mark does think it's an idiotic storyline, and a
major mistake on DC's part. How are any of DCs heroes supposed to be heroic
if any one of them can go insane and become a mass murderer?
Greg, I asked Mark if Ayla and Vi's relationship will be explicitly
depicted, but the new direction makes this a moot question. He thinks that
it would be appropriate if the book was still about adults, but since the LSH
are 15 year-olds again the situation is more cagey. This is not to say that
their relationship won't develop along the same lines in the future, though.
He thinks v4 was pretty clear on the subject, anyway.
Tom McCraw will still be a writer, but Mark will be helping him
refine his writing skills. Chris Gardner was also at the con. He won't be
on Legionnaires after #18. He doesn't know who will take over, but DC is
negotiating with Adam Hughes.
Mark does want to bring back leadership elections by readership vote.
And Cos will not be the first leader. But he wouldn't tell me who will be.
I also asked him what he would like to say to the net. He says
please stay with the book. It's been bad lately, but will be good again
after Zero Hour. Also, don't miss "End of an Era", as it will serve as the
farewell to current Legion continuity.
That's all for now. Any questions? Feel free to e-mail me.
-Trent trel...@cellar.org
- is glad he's not on LegionMUSH, boy are THEY in for
trouble........
----------------------...@cellar.org----------------------
"Take a big draw, you're smoking for two now."
-Trent Markham, Lung Doctor (SNL)
Michael A. Chary
This is a *truly* stupid idea.
just my opinion, of course
--
"You were clinically dead for six minutes -- what was it like on
the other side."
"There was an *INCREDIBLE* duty free shop, but I didn't have any money."
-Bizarro "Ipsa scientia potestas est." - Roger Bacon
His Eminence Cardinal Elmo
[SPOILERS like you've never seen!]
>
> Yesterday, I went to a con in Delaware to ask Mark Waid (LSH writer)
> why I should keep buying the LSH books after Zero Hour.
> POST ZERO HOUR SPOILERS FOLLOW!
> AND MY EDITOR CAN'T DO ^L!
Mine can. It just doesn't honor them.
> It's ALL GONE. After Zero Hour, LSH continuity will restart at day
> one, and proceed from there in _LSH_ & _Legionnaires_. One team with 2
> monthly titles.
This could work. At the very least, it'll be a lot easier to drop if it
sucks than if it were the old Legion.
> What will the new LSH be like? There will be codenames. Mark fought
> against it, but DC wants to stick with the newer ones (Triad, Apparition).
Just no "Live Wire", please.
> Kid Quantum _is_ staying, and will be included in the first wave of
> new members.
Sigh.
> Brande will still be a billionaire,
> the "third richest man in the galaxy," but his company does not build stars.
> Rather, Brande Industries is the only company that knows how to build
> faster-than-light starship drives. The United Planets will be in its
> infancy.
And is therefore going to nationalize Brande Industries in no more than
30 microseconds :-)
--
"Help! Help! I'm being oppressed! Come see the violence inherent in the
system!"--Monty Python
elmo (mor...@physics.rice.edu,mor...@fnal.fnal.gov)
Mean Mister Mustard
Michael A. Chary <ma...@po.CWRU.Edu> wrote:
>
>This is a *truly* stupid idea.
>just my opinion, of course
Michael, I am in complete agreement with you.
I just wish this joyous reconciliation were brought about by happier news.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
Marc
(Does DC *want* me to drop their titles? First Harpoon-Hand Aquaman, now
the erasing of THIRTY YEARS of continuity...)
allan b goodrich
Wow....that idea sorta.....SUCKS!!
I liked parts of v4. I spent mucho bucks on v4. I stayed with
v4 up till the McCraw crapola. And now all of it's gone. SCREW.
seems like I shoulda given up at the end of v3.....
pete. silver lining: They could bring back Blok!
David Kirby
: Yesterday, I went to a con in Delaware to ask Mark Waid (LSH writer)
: why I should keep buying the LSH books after Zero Hour. . . .
. . .
: Well, I talked to him about it, and I believe the title is _saved_.
: POST ZERO HOUR SPOILERS FOLLOW!
. . .
: So, the burning question: what LSH continuity will survive Zero Hour?
: The answer: NONE OF IT.
: It's ALL GONE. After Zero Hour, LSH continuity will restart at day
: one, and proceed from there in _LSH_ & _Legionnaires_. One team with 2
: monthly titles.
. . .
Looks like it may be a good time for this long-time Legion
reader to get out while he can. I agree with earlier posters on
similar threads -- part of the fun of the series is its history.
Without that . . . . Well, I don't know if I need to be reading
two more funny books about 15-year-old kids.
-- David
Karl Hiller
ET> The answer: NONE OF IT.
ET> It's ALL GONE. After Zero Hour, LSH continuity will restart at day
ET> one, and proceed from there in _LSH_ & _Legionnaires_. One team
ET> with 2 monthly titles.
Huh.
You know, Dave Sim did a cute thing in Cerebus this month... He
"revealed" that he decided years ago to end Cerebus with issue #200,
instead of #300, but not to tell anyone until #183. That is, instead of
117 more issues, we only have 17 left. It sort of made my guts wrench,
just a little.
So does this.
The SOLE thing that has kept me reading the book through good times and
bad was the sense of history and the depth of the characters. The
relationships between the various members have been built up over many
years, and "reunion" issues like #60 and the "Big Chill" story on
Winath (Annual #3, I think) are a treat to read (whatever other flaws
they may have) because _we know these people_. All the little character
"bits" - Ayla's biting remark about Timber Wolf' promise not to hurt
Mysa, Luornu's crush on Superboy, the history between Brainy and Super-
ahh... Laurel, the Gim/Vera/Vi triangle (with Duplicate Boy, I think),
etc. etc. - these are the heart of the Legion.
Legionnaires always felt somehow artificial, because these characters
lacked all that development. They weren't as *real*. And I'm afraid that
I'll feel the same way about this new direction.
Face it - if the characters develop in the same way as in the past,
who's going to be interested in reading a rehash? "Let's see, at this
rate, Mordru will be making his first appearance in... oh, five years!
I can't wait!" And if they don't develop in the same way, well, then
they aren't the same characters, and why should we care about them?
Dave Sim added later that he was only joking about ending with #200 (it
was part of the metafiction theme he's been developing lately - don't
ask). I really, _really_ hope that this Legion revamp also turns out to
be untrue.
KJH
* RM 1.3 * Eval Day 15 * Viva P.O.O.P.!
Jonathan I. Ezor
Ugh. So they're going to do a Byrne-through on the Legion after Zero
Hour. Oh joy, oh rapture, oh am I feeling ill. This makes *no*
sense. None. When they redid Superman, they did it because it was
boring, *not* because it was confusing. And because it was
stuck in the '70's and the characterization was less than deep and
they felt there were new ways to tell stories about a multi-powered
Kryptonian with midwest values. And because we the longtime readers
were no longer interested in Superman. At least I wasn't. Who wanted
to read God Comics?
Well.
Regarding the Legion, let's take that point by point:
1) Boring but not confusing. Nope. A bit misguided at times, but not
generally boring, and it *certainly* is confusing. But that's what
Zero Hour is for...giving a good reason to clean up the retcons, like
Crisis before it.
2) Stuck in the past and shallow. *No* way. I am in the pro-Giffen
and early v4 camp, and I *loved* the characterization and advancement
which was being done. While it hasn't been done much as of late,
there are still personality quirks and deeper issues being addressed.
3) Longtime readers no longer interested. Uh-*huh*. That's why there
are so many LSH comments here that there is constantly talk of a
separate newsgroup. That's why the current run of stories could put
all those references to the past without Ed. footnotes, expecting the
readership to get at least most of them.
What bugs me is that the decision is already made. This is
*ludicrous*. I thought LGS was their attempt to start over without
worrying too much about old continuity. And I bought it because it
was fun to see fresh characterization of old friends. But it was
*secondary* to the real, true, about to be destroyed Legion!!!!!!!
Why did we bother bridging the five-year gap? What could the
editorial board be thinking???? If they do it....I'll stop buying. I
haven't stopped Green Lantern, I'm only now considering dropping
Titans (which is barely readable, and worse to look at)....but Legion
will go. *poof* I agree with whoever said that we don't need another
book about super-powered teenagers. *deep sigh* {Jonathan}
--
Jonathan I. Ezor
Internet: je...@panix.com
Mean Mister Mustard
Fifth Avenue:
Darkness.
"The, ahhhhhh, rrretcons have been successful. Ahhhhhh, the Legion
has been errrased."
"But damn that Carrrlson for attracting so much attention! You,
ahhh, you said he would be discrrreet!"
"It worrrked, didn't it? The Legion is no more and their fans
have, ahhh, abandoned them with angerrr and disgust..."
* * * * *
Planet Blackball.
A lone figure wanders the scarred wasteland, arriving at a miserable hovel.
He pulls aside the grimy curtain and steps inside.
"Hey, Fleming!" he says, greeting the one-armed hobo within.
"Can't talk now Giff. Gotta go. Seeya later."
Fleming hustled out of the hovel, leaving Giff wide-eyed. "But you
called me here..."
"No he didn't," said a voice from the shadows, "I did."
"Wha -- Tom! You old Beerbommian sonovagun! What are you doing
here!"
"I want to start it up again Giff. Remember the dream? Remember
how it felt...
.
.
* * * * *
Space Cruiser bound for Earth.
"I can't wait to see Earth. Maybe I can get a job..."
"Hey, Giff, gotta sit closer to *her*! Little wiggle in that--"
"That's P.J. Levitz! Maybe he has a job..."
"What? That chick, Mary, she says someone's going to kill Levitz--"
"Got him! OK, got him!"
"Look, it's VOLUME FORCE!"
"We're really gonna make a difference...."
* * * * *
Giff shrugged inside his overcoat. "Okay, Tom. I'll do it. But you
realize my drawing has gone to hell."
"If I wanted an artist, there are some Image boys as good as you
ever were... I need a *plotter*."
"Say, Tom what would you have done if I'd said no?"
"Why, it never occurred to me."
Giff smiled. "You sonova -- so who else is in? Mary?"
Tom nodded. "Of course." He paused, and kicked a pebble. "There's
just one problem. McCraw is working with DCed...."
NOT THE END.
Marc
Nah, on second thought, it'll never happen that way. After all, who would
buy it? ;-)
Michael E. McKean
Legion over from Day Zero, write yet another book about super-powered
teenagers, and dump 36 years of continuity...
For me, it's been 21 years. I grew up with the Legion, went to college
and grad school with them, and beyond. And I mean this in a serious way,
relatively speaking. I started reading just before the *first* Legion
wedding and Superboy rejoining the group. I managed to pick up every issue
since, and nearly all of their appearances before (missing a few Adventure,
but still have all those stories as reprints). Unlike nearly every
other comic book characters, these guys actually aged with me--if not quite
one year for one year, they came alot closer than anyone else.
They grew up, went into and out of relationships, got married or found
life partners, had kids; they began as amateurs in a super-hero "club" and
evolved into a professional law-enforcement group--and later went
further and became a focal point of resistance to the enemies of UP
and Earth. They lived and they died; I've seen few features handle
death as well as the LSH...And the characters grew and changed. They
started as kids and became adults. That is rare enough in comics by
itself to be treasured when you find it...
Many other reasons I could go on about...but the main question I ask
myself is why DC is doing this...and I can't figure it out.
The longtime fans are unlikely to support this...they will lose
many of them, perhaps most, and the ones who do stick around will
either do so out of curiosity or because they are nostaligic for
the teen legion in Adventure Comics, now gone for 25 years...
So if they carry through with this plan, they must be hoping to
pick up tons of new readers who can support two Legion comics.
But who is their target audience? Who do they think will be
interested in a teen Legion that was not interested in an adult
Legion before? Though there are a few teen heroes out there, most
teenagers read about adult heroes...why should it be different for
a 30th century group?
And who will be interested in a group whose history is mostly
determined? We *know* who the kids joining the group after Rokk,
Imra, and Garth will be... where is the mystery? So maybe their
motivations will be different--that's an excuse to retell a
story though, not present it as if it's happening for the first
time. We can guess who will live, who will die, who will date...
The blurb for LGS #0 indicates that that issue will tell the tale
of the first Legionnaire death. But where is the mystery? We
already know that this is likely to be Kid Quantum. Next in line
is Garth (at least temporarily), Ferro, Lyle, etc...This is the
problem that past LSH creators had when the Adult Legion stories
cast the future of the LSH into stone, except that the problem
is greater by an order of magnitude.
There are many good reasons DC could use LGS for a year or even two
to tell the story of the Legion in the post-Zero Hour continuity.
Enough of Legion history has been changed recently to make that
worthwhile. I mean, we still don't really know how Valor/Laurel Gand
replace SUperboy/Mon-El in the early Legion. Or where K.Q. fits in.
Or lots of other smaller changes. It would also serve to introduce
new readers to the LSH. But in the meantime LSH could be
used to tell *new* stories of the current, adult Legion, with the
bulk of its past intact. This to me seems the ideal solution.
Possibly with enough reader complaints we can get something
like this to happen...
Mike McKean
Long Live the Real Legion!!!
R Scott Smith
>From: a...@world.std.com (allan b goodrich)
>Subject: Re: LSH: post-Zero Hour SPOILERS
>Date: Tue, 28 Jun 1994 03:17:08 GMT
> Wow....that idea sorta.....SUCKS!!
And Val. There's lots of potential to see old favourites back. However,
some really great stories have been sent for Kara Zor-El to read. Great
Darkness comes to mind immediately. I even miss Omega and the insane Brainy.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
R Scott Smith "What power would HELL have if those here
imprisoned were not able to DREAM of
HEAVEN?" Neil Gaiman
"The Sandman"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kynn Bartlett
Elaine & Trent <trel...@cellar.org> wrote:
> [spoilers deleted]
> - is glad he's not on LegionMUSH, boy are THEY in for
>trouble........
"RESTART THE DATABASE"
--Russ Smith, PernMUSH, 1991 or so
--Grev Mallor @ LegionMUSH
David T. Chappell
In <seTLoc...@cellar.org>, trel...@cellar.org (Elaine & Trent) writes:
>Zero Hour will have no effect, sadly, on Emerald
>Twilight. That's staying. Mark does think it's an idiotic storyline, and a
>major mistake on DC's part. How are any of DCs heroes supposed to be heroic
>if any one of them can go insane and become a mass murderer?
Aha! Comibing the above with Jurgens recent comments from WIZARD, I think
the real truth is . . .
SHOWCASE #9 will reveal that Hal Jordan is the real Monarch!!!
(No, I'm not serious.)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ *****
David T. Chappell -- dav...@leland.stanford.edu
Stanford University -- Stanford International Mars Mission
Electrical Engineering Department -- Keeper of the Superman FAQ ** Team OS/2
Earl S. Harris
> So does this.
>
> The SOLE thing that has kept me reading the book through good times and
> bad was the sense of history and the depth of the characters. The
> relationships between the various members have been built up over many
> years, and "reunion" issues like #60 and the "Big Chill" story on
> Winath (Annual #3, I think) are a treat to read (whatever other flaws
> they may have) because _we know these people_. All the little character
> "bits" - Ayla's biting remark about Timber Wolf' promise not to hurt
> Mysa, Luornu's crush on Superboy, the history between Brainy and Super-
> ahh... Laurel, the Gim/Vera/Vi triangle (with Duplicate Boy, I think),
> etc. etc. - these are the heart of the Legion.
>
> Legionnaires always felt somehow artificial, because these characters
> lacked all that development. They weren't as *real*. And I'm afraid that
> I'll feel the same way about this new direction.
>
> Face it - if the characters develop in the same way as in the past,
> who's going to be interested in reading a rehash? "Let's see, at this
> rate, Mordru will be making his first appearance in... oh, five years!
> I can't wait!" And if they don't develop in the same way, well, then
> they aren't the same characters, and why should we care about them?
When John Byrne rehashed Superman, interesting in Superman went up. Also,
Superman's origin was rehashed in "Superman" the movie and "Lois & Clark."
Lastly, wasn't the creation of the silver-age heroes often a rehash of
golden-age heroes?
IMHO, rehashing is not as bad as you say. You want to keep the
essence of the original story. Rehashing a storying is also a great
entry point for new readers.
I use to read the Legion of Superheroes. But sometime after Crisis, they lost
me. Continuity got real confusing to me (there was two sets of legions)?
I like stories whose continuity seems managable. I find the rehashing the
Legion very interesting. I may start reading it again.
Earl Harris Jr.
Michael E. McKean
plm...@emoryu1.cc.emory.edu (Paul L. Moses) writes:
|>Hey LSH Fans,
|>
|>Emerald Twilight proves that (fan) nightmares DO come true in the
|>DC Universe. Say goodbye to all the wonderful, unique plot
|>elements and history as the plot bulldozer razes it all to the
|>ground. Watch in shock as a pre-fab storyline is hauled in
|>overnight and looks just like *everything* you've seen before
|>everywhere else.
|>
|>Take it from a Hal fan.
|>
|>Paul
Thanks for the words of sympathy.
Mike
Dave Van Domelen
>In article <seTLoc...@cellar.org>,
>Elaine & Trent <trel...@cellar.org> wrote:
>> [spoilers deleted]
>> - is glad he's not on LegionMUSH, boy are THEY in for
>>trouble........
>"RESTART THE DATABASE"
>--Russ Smith, PernMUSH, 1991 or so
Nah, we can saves lots of it. A big chunk of the DB is nonfeature anyway.
Just go around removing references to domes and stuff, and most of Earth is
okay. And Armorr Avenue would have to be renamed. }-> But I fail to see how
Suicide Slum would be affected at all...it was out of continuity to begin with.
Nah, the DB isn't that much of a problem. The real problem is characters.
several score current feature players having to squeeze into maybe a few dozen
new features. That's gonna be ugly.
Dave Van Domelen, currently Staq Mavlen @ LegionMUSH, considering changing
over to Jhaq Suss....
Ronald Snelgrove
: Well, I talked to him about it, and I believe the title is _saved_.
This is your idea of saved? We differ greatly, my friend.
: -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
: First, Mark Waid agrees with me, the current series sucks. The
: continuity has been mucked about with so many times that _no_one_ can
: understand the book or establish a coherent LSH history. And DC, KC Carlson,
: and Paul Levitz agree too.
Yes, the current series mostly sucked. But so did bits of the Legion going
all the way back to Shooter and Weisinger. Just to be fair in the laying of
blame...
: So, the burning question: what LSH continuity will survive Zero Hour?
: The answer: NONE OF IT.
: It's ALL GONE. After Zero Hour, LSH continuity will restart at day
: one, and proceed from there in _LSH_ & _Legionnaires_. One team with 2
: monthly titles.
Great. So instead of the last 30 years of stories being an integral part of
the Legion, we now get to start *all* over again. Almost makes me wish for
the T&M&K version. At least it dealt with the established continuity, fucking
it senseless aside.
: As revealed in _Previews_, the two 0 issues will retell the origin of
: the LSH. What we didn't know until now is that the monthlies will keep going
: from that point, not jump ahead. The new stories will adhere to the
: framework of the _Adventure_ era, but will differ slightly and embellish
: greatly.
: So all those retcons you don't like are gone. SW6 -- gone.
: Proty/Garth -- gone.
EarthWar -- gone. Great Darkness Saga -- gone. LSH #300 -- gone. All the
characterization and character evolution -- gone. Omega -- gone.
A bit like throwing out the baby with the bathwater, to me. Of course, what
do I know? I'm only a 25 year LSH veteran...
: What will the new LSH be like? There will be codenames. Mark fought
: against it, but DC wants to stick with the newer ones (Triad, Apparition).
Oh joy. So instead of classic (and *maybe* a touch corny but still likeable)
names like Sun Boy or Colossal Boy, we get to see useless moderizations like
Triad. Oh well, I shouldn't complain I guess. She could have been Tryad. (JLA
Bloodwynd insiders joke there)
: Kid Quantum _is_ staying,
*WHY?* To keep the new readers happy? To not confuse them? After all, he
*really was* the 10th member. Yeah, right.
This raises my hackles to the point where I have to get something off my
chest that's been building for a while now. Why does DC insist on trying to
get new readers, even at the expense of its old readers? Don't misunderstand,
I know why they want new readers, and I agree. They need the influx to stay
in business. But it seems to me that the company policy the last year or so
has been "We'll do anything to attract new readers, right up to alienating
our old loyal readers" When they did Emerald Toilet, they were trying to
attract new readers. Fine. But they trashed a 30 year favourite character and
severely pissed off many of the readers they already had in the process; many
to the point where they dropped the Green Lantern title altogether. I know, I
was one of them. They also allowed a complete rewrite on one of their premier
titles. The LSH has been very popular over the last 15-20 years of its existance
and still stood up continuity-wise after the minor ret-con to explain away
the Superboy problem. I didn't like that ret-con either, but it was needed, and
it was able to validate the last 30 years of the title. Now they want to throw
it *all* away? Well, I never thought I'd say this, but this is one reader who
went with the baby and the water...
: Mark does want to bring back leadership elections by readership vote.
: And Cos will not be the first leader. But he wouldn't tell me who will be.
The readership elections were always great fun, so at least that is staying.
: I also asked him what he would like to say to the net. He says
: please stay with the book. It's been bad lately, but will be good again
: after Zero Hour. Also, don't miss "End of an Era", as it will serve as the
It's not Waid that most of us nay-sayers have trouble with. Hell, it's not
even McCraw. It's that the LSH has always been very tight on continuity and now
that is being thrown all away, v.1-4. I have heard the comparison to the
Superman-Byrne restart of 1986. This is not the same, however. That was done
because the character had grown to the point where there was nothing that could
really be done with him anymore, being as powerful and omnipotent as he was.
The LSH still had lots of growing room to go. The reason (as I understand it)
why v.3 came to an end was that Levitz was burnt out and wanted off the title.
The K&T&M team wanted to start their own, so the move to v.4. (If this is wrong,
I'd be glad to be corrected.) But Levitz left the title with plenty to grow on.
Pre-Crisis Superman was stagnant; the LSH was not.
Dennis
Ronald Snelgrove
Much deleted text and stuff
: When John Byrne rehashed Superman, interesting in Superman went up. Also,
: Superman's origin was rehashed in "Superman" the movie and "Lois & Clark."
That's true. But what you have to remember is that Kal-El had reached the
literal point of God-hood. He was so powerful that he was boring. When Byrne
rehashed (as you say) Superman, it rejuvenated the character by making him
accessable to the readership again. The LSH has nopt had this problem. Until
v.4 and all the ret-cons that the creative team inflicted on the title, the
continuity was pretty much straightforward. Agreed the ret-con for the Pockey
Universe Superboy was shoe-horned in, but that was needed to *preserve* the
continuity, not re-write it to stroke the writers' ego.
: Lastly, wasn't the creation of the silver-age heroes often a rehash of
: golden-age heroes?
Yes, but this was the 50's, not the 90's. They didn't have the continuity
we have now, nor were the readers who they were in the 40's. Remember, at this
time comics were strictly for kids. If you read them in the WWII era, then you
shouldn't still be reading them in the mid-50's. Different readers means you
can rehash and pretty much none of your readership will know or care. So endeth
the history lesson... :-)
: I use to read the Legion of Superheroes. But sometime after Crisis, they lost
: me. Continuity got real confusing to me (there was two sets of legions)?
: I like stories whose continuity seems managable. I find the rehashing the
: Legion very interesting. I may start reading it again.
I'd flippantly say 'blame that on K&T&M', but management let them get away
with it...
I hope you do, and I hope you enjoy it. I'll give a 99% guarentee - I won't.
Dennis
Jerry Franke
: Earl S. Harris (esh...@ma.cs.wm.edu) wrote:
: Much deleted text and stuff
: : When John Byrne rehashed Superman, interesting in Superman went up. Also,
: : Superman's origin was rehashed in "Superman" the movie and "Lois & Clark."
: That's true. But what you have to remember is that Kal-El had reached the
: literal point of God-hood. He was so powerful that he was boring. When Byrne
: rehashed (as you say) Superman, it rejuvenated the character by making him
: accessable to the readership again. The LSH has nopt had this problem. Until
: v.4 and all the ret-cons that the creative team inflicted on the title, the
: continuity was pretty much straightforward. Agreed the ret-con for the Pockey
: Universe Superboy was shoe-horned in, but that was needed to *preserve* the
: continuity, not re-write it to stroke the writers' ego.
This is an interesting point. When Byrne remade Superman, I couldn't help
but really miss a lot of the backstory that the character had developed over
50 years. I had always felt that the deaths of Ma & Pa were what turned
Superboy (a teen who used his great powers for good) into Superman (greatest
champion in the universe, protector of the innocent, etc.). I've really
enjoyed the characterization Jonathan and Martha have received since their
'revival', but Supes' motivations for his continual struggle for mankind
seem weakened. Plus, it wiped out an absolutely wonderful story where Pa
gets to come back from the dead and see how his son turned out -- a truly
moving piece.
There were other problems as well -- missing characters (Steve Lombard,
where are you?), redefined characters (the kinder, gentler, Morgan Edge),
and new/changed situations (Clark's no longer behind the anchor desk, with
all the problems that followed). Not to mention the lack of Kara Zor-El and
a completely different Luthor.
And we had to sit through stories "introducing" old characters like Bizarro
and Mr. Mxyzptlk. What a bother.
But, it turned out o.k. for the most part. And, it did what DC wanted it to
do -- garner new Superman readers. I couldn't help but notice that a lot of
the arguments made for why wiping out 30 years of Legion history sucks (and
don't get me wrong -- I think it sucks too) are the same arguments I made
against the "new" Superman -- but I was eventually won over by it. I'm
inclined to give this Legion re-write a chance (a small one, albeit).
jlf (who still thinks that's Squire Burroughs in Dirk's body in Drake's
suit)
Ken Arromdee
Ronald Snelgrove <ron...@locutus.ac.BrockU.CA> wrote:
>: Lastly, wasn't the creation of the silver-age heroes often a rehash of
>: golden-age heroes?
> Yes, but this was the 50's, not the 90's. They didn't have the continuity
>we have now, nor were the readers who they were in the 40's. Remember, at this
>time comics were strictly for kids. If you read them in the WWII era, then you
>shouldn't still be reading them in the mid-50's.
The fifties rehash also didn't really delete the Golden Age characters; the
companies (especially DC) could still publish stories about them, and they
existed in current continuity even while the Silver Age ones did.
The analogy for LSH would be some kind of Earth-2 deal where the post-ZH
Legion can meet the pre-ZH Legion....
--
Ken Arromdee (email: arro...@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
ObYouKnowWho Bait: Stuffed Turkey with Gravy and Mashed Potatoes
"You, a Decider?" --Romana "I decided not to." --The Doctor
Mike O'Connor
Franke) writes:
:This is an interesting point. When Byrne remade Superman, I couldn't help
:but really miss a lot of the backstory that the character had developed over
:50 years. I had always felt that the deaths of Ma & Pa were what turned
:Superboy (a teen who used his great powers for good) into Superman (greatest
:champion in the universe, protector of the innocent, etc.). I've really
:enjoyed the characterization Jonathan and Martha have received since their
:'revival', but Supes' motivations for his continual struggle for mankind
:seem weakened. Plus, it wiped out an absolutely wonderful story where Pa
:gets to come back from the dead and see how his son turned out -- a truly
:moving piece.
I dunno... I tend to disagree that Pa Kent's death was all that
motivating, especially with an established Superboy and such. The
deaths of Spider-Man's Uncle Ben -- "with great power comes great
responsibility" or Batman's parents were a lot more moving. I like
the fact that there wasn't some inner demon tormenting him toward
being a force for good, like there HAS to be.
:There were other problems as well -- missing characters (Steve Lombard,
:where are you?), redefined characters (the kinder, gentler, Morgan Edge),
:and new/changed situations (Clark's no longer behind the anchor desk, with
:all the problems that followed). Not to mention the lack of Kara Zor-El and
:a completely different Luthor.
The Pre-Crisis' Superman's history was becoming a source of baggage.
I never really cared for Kent the broadcaster or Morgan Edge. Having
Steve Lombard around in some form like a sportswriter would be a nice
touch, if only so I can see Supes face when he gets called "Clarkie"
for the first time. :)
I wish Luthor were more of the super-genius than he is currently --
just because he joined the hair club for men is no excuse to lose
his intelligence. :)
...Mike
--
Michael J. O'Connor | Internet: m...@jobone.srl.ford.com
Ford Motor Company, OPEO | UUCP: ...!fmsrl7!opeo!mjo
20000 Rotunda, Bldg. 1-3001 | Phone: +1 (313) 248-1260
Dearborn, MI 48121 | Fax: +1 (313) 323-6277
Ronald Snelgrove
: companies (especially DC) could still publish stories about them, and they
: existed in current continuity even while the Silver Age ones did.
: The analogy for LSH would be some kind of Earth-2 deal where the post-ZH
: Legion can meet the pre-ZH Legion....
OOOOO!!! I like it! Do you think... Nah, they'd never go for it...
Dennis
John Desmarais
: In article <2uqt6f$2...@mailer.fsu.edu> fra...@sed.cs.fsu.edu (Jerry
: Franke) writes:
Give it time. Very slowly we're seeing a return to the Pre-Crisis Luthor.
--
*****************************************************************************
* John Desmarais - 804-868-6160 * I've never let school interfere *
* Yorktown, Virginia * with my education. **************
**************************************************************** Mark Twain *
* Never trust a Prophet who's always in a hurry. **************
Mike O'Connor
writes in response to me:
:: I wish Luthor were more of the super-genius than he is currently --
:: just because he joined the hair club for men is no excuse to lose
:: his intelligence. :)
:
:Give it time. Very slowly we're seeing a return to the Pre-Crisis Luthor.
Better than a Pre-Crisis Luthor would be a Maggin Luthor. :)
Technoknight
In article <2urp33$l...@lucy.infi.net>, joh...@infi.net (John Desmarais) writes:
|>: I wish Luthor were more of the super-genius than he is currently --
|>: just because he joined the hair club for men is no excuse to lose
|>: his intelligence. :)
|>
|>Give it time. Very slowly we're seeing a return to the Pre-Crisis Luthor.
Yuck. I liked the new, "sauve" Lex Luthor. An intimadating old bald man was
getting boring.
Losing Supergirl (Matrix) was a major blow to Lex. Now how is Lex going to
harass Superman without a super-hero ally? We've seen that power suits,
even Superman's own Kryptonian battle-suit, don't mean much to Supes OR
Supergirl.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Generic disclaimer: These thoughts and writings are my own unless otherwise
noted - although Jerrold my twin may think them too.
Jeremy H. Pace | The Vindicator Eph. 6:12
jhp...@eos.ncsu.edu | Technoknight MS V in Wolfpack ROTC
NC State, Raleigh | Computer Engineering
(coordinates 78.79 Long, 35.87 Lat North Hemi.)
"Peace, through superior firepower." - Minos V motto, ST:TNG "The Arsenal
of Freedom"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Derek Bruff
>I never really cared for Kent the broadcaster or Morgan Edge. Having
>Steve Lombard around in some form like a sportswriter would be a nice
>touch, if only so I can see Supes face when he gets called "Clarkie"
>for the first time. :)
While I admit his role in the Superman books has been small, Steve Lombard
*has* been around for the last several years. He does news and "Current
Affair" type shows on WGBS for Edge (or whoever's running it now).
I don't think we've ever seen him off-air (and he's not met Clarkie to
my knowledge), but he's in there.
(And I always enojyed it when I spotted him, cause I remember him, too.)
Derek Bruff
Mean Mister Mustard
>: As revealed in _Previews_, the two 0 issues will retell the origin of
>: the LSH. What we didn't know until now is that the monthlies will keep going
>: from that point, not jump ahead. The new stories will adhere to the
>: framework of the _Adventure_ era, but will differ slightly and embellish
>: greatly.
>: So all those retcons you don't like are gone. SW6 -- gone.
>: Proty/Garth -- gone.
>
>: Kid Quantum _is_ staying,
Gosh, Mr. Waid, I thought you just said all those retcons we don't like are
gone. }->
> It's not Waid that most of us nay-sayers have trouble with. Hell, it's not
>even McCraw. It's that the LSH has always been very tight on continuity and now
>that is being thrown all away, v.1-4. I have heard the comparison to the
>Superman-Byrne restart of 1986. This is not the same, however. That was done
>because the character had grown to the point where there was nothing that could
>really be done with him anymore, being as powerful and omnipotent as he was.
>The LSH still had lots of growing room to go. The reason (as I understand it)
>why v.3 came to an end was that Levitz was burnt out and wanted off the title.
>The K&T&M team wanted to start their own, so the move to v.4. (If this is wrong,
>I'd be glad to be corrected.) But Levitz left the title with plenty to grow on.
>Pre-Crisis Superman was stagnant; the LSH was not.
Nor is the current, Waid-McCraw LSH.
Also, remember (those of you who compare this retcon to the Byrne-Superman
one) that it was that very retconning that screwed up LSH continuity in
the first place. What will this retcon screw up?
I should also point out that we could compare this to any number of revamps
and revitalizations that have "jump-started" books and characters *without*
invalidating histories. Moore did it on Swamp Thing. Miller did it on
Batman. Giffen and DeMatteis did it on JLA. Wolfman and Perez did it on
Titans. But this LSH refitting seems to be taking the "easy" way out.
Marc
"How strange, after the long exacting toil of preparation that it takes only
the slightest effort and less thought to start this brief, elaborate
amusement on its breathless, hurtling race: The merest touch, no more...
"Poor dominoes. Your pretty empire took so long to build. Now, with a
snap of history's fingers... down it goes."
--V for Vendetta
John Desmarais
: In article <1994Jun29.0...@spartan.ac.brocku.ca>,
: Ronald Snelgrove <ron...@locutus.ac.BrockU.CA> wrote:
: >Elaine & Trent (trel...@cellar.org) wrote:
: >: As revealed in _Previews_, the two 0 issues will retell the origin of
: >: the LSH. What we didn't know until now is that the monthlies will keep going
: >: from that point, not jump ahead. The new stories will adhere to the
: >: framework of the _Adventure_ era, but will differ slightly and embellish
: >: greatly.
: >: So all those retcons you don't like are gone. SW6 -- gone.
: >: Proty/Garth -- gone.
: >
: >: Kid Quantum _is_ staying,
: Gosh, Mr. Waid, I thought you just said all those retcons we don't like are
: gone. }->
: > It's not Waid that most of us nay-sayers have trouble with. Hell, it's not
: >even McCraw. It's that the LSH has always been very tight on continuity and now
: >that is being thrown all away, v.1-4. I have heard the comparison to the
: >Superman-Byrne restart of 1986. This is not the same, however. That was done
: >because the character had grown to the point where there was nothing that could
: >really be done with him anymore, being as powerful and omnipotent as he was.
: >The LSH still had lots of growing room to go. The reason (as I understand it)
: >why v.3 came to an end was that Levitz was burnt out and wanted off the title.
: >The K&T&M team wanted to start their own, so the move to v.4. (If this is wrong,
: >I'd be glad to be corrected.) But Levitz left the title with plenty to grow on.
: >Pre-Crisis Superman was stagnant; the LSH was not.
: Nor is the current, Waid-McCraw LSH.
True, its not stagnant, but it is a mess. It is in desparate need of
something, but what I've seen here of Waid's plan isn't it (but then I am a
stodgey of Legion fan from days gone by).
: Also, remember (those of you who compare this retcon to the Byrne-Superman
: one) that it was that very retconning that screwed up LSH continuity in
: the first place. What will this retcon screw up?
: I should also point out that we could compare this to any number of revamps
: and revitalizations that have "jump-started" books and characters *without*
: invalidating histories. Moore did it on Swamp Thing. Miller did it on
: Batman. Giffen and DeMatteis did it on JLA. Wolfman and Perez did it on
: Titans. But this LSH refitting seems to be taking the "easy" way out.
The Post-Crisis Titan mini-revamp did invalidate a small amout of Titans
history, nothing important continuity wise, but the "Who is Donna Troy"
story was one of the best stories Wolfman has written and it was a shame to
see blown away into the wind.
: Marc
: "How strange, after the long exacting toil of preparation that it takes only
: the slightest effort and less thought to start this brief, elaborate
: amusement on its breathless, hurtling race: The merest touch, no more...
: "Poor dominoes. Your pretty empire took so long to build. Now, with a
: snap of history's fingers... down it goes."
: --V for Vendetta
Mean Mister Mustard
>Mean Mister Mustard (ma...@wam.umd.edu) wrote:
>
>: I should also point out that we could compare this to any number of revamps
>: and revitalizations that have "jump-started" books and characters *without*
>: invalidating histories. Moore did it on Swamp Thing. Miller did it on
>: Batman. Giffen and DeMatteis did it on JLA. Wolfman and Perez did it on
>: Titans. But this LSH refitting seems to be taking the "easy" way out.
>
>The Post-Crisis Titan mini-revamp did invalidate a small amout of Titans
>history, nothing important continuity wise, but the "Who is Donna Troy"
>story was one of the best stories Wolfman has written and it was a shame to
>see blown away into the wind.
Well, I was referring to the initial work by Wolfman and Perez, which
did not invalidate any previous stuff, and even used continuity to great
advantage (the story where Gar and Cliff avenge the Doom Patrol was simply
fantastic, the use of the Purple Ray to heal Gar was inspired, HIVE was
composed of old loser villains, and so on).
Post-Crisis, I think the only thing they had to change was Donna's relation
to Wonder Woman. Most of "Who Is Donna Troy" should still be in
continuity; I think baby Donna was still put up for adoption, sold, etc.,
and Dick still found her family for her. And I agree that it's one of
Wolfman's best stories.
Michael E. McKean
retcon that screwed up LSH continuity in the first place. Then he asks,
"What will this retcon screw up?"
The answer to that is obvious. The Byrne Superman continuity. After all,
Superman's second trip to the Pocket Universe, a sequel to his first,
brought us Supergirl and the first time that Superman killed.
Superboy and his pre-Crisis baggage (e.g., the Phantom Zone) are
an essential element for both the setup and the events in that story. That in
turn gave Superman a Crisis of Conscience that led to his journey in
space. It was on this journey through space that he first encountered
(post-Crisis) Mongul and met an alien preacher who had once worked on
Krypton. The preacher gave him the Eradicator, which built the fortess
of solitude and then tried to "Kryptonize" Supes and then Earth before
it was defeated. Both the Eradicator and Mongul were critical parts of
the Reign of Superman storyline; strictly speaking, Superman could not
have returned to life or defeated the Cyborg without the help of the
Eradicator. Coast City would not have been destroyed if Mongul had not
come to Earth to wreak vengeance on Superman. And this of course affects
Green Lantern--no Emerald Twilight, no Kyle, and the GLC still operating.
ANd of course you could go on about the impact Supergirl has had on
Superman continuity.
Mike
Michael A. Chary
Actually, I was just reading through about twenty issues last night.
Just before The Great Darkness Saga up tyhrough Omen and Prophet.
(#287-#310) and Levitz had round about twenty five years of continuity
to wade thirough and deal with, and he did quite well. Dev-Em showed
up, and the Lallorians were there. And Lyle Norg came back (thought that was
Giffen's idea and Levitz didn't like it one tiny little bit.)^"though"
TMK's problem IMHO was that they tried to reivent contuity and'
then did not justify it or tell anyone why.
--
"You were clinically dead for six minutes -- what was it like on
the other side."
"There was an *INCREDIBLE* duty free shop, but I didn't have any money."
-Bizarro "Ipsa scientia potestas est." - Roger Bacon
Bruce Baugh
: TMK's problem IMHO was that they tried to reivent contuity and'
: then did not justify it or tell anyone why.
I might as well say some nice things about Tom and Mary here. I was in
INTERLAC for a few years starting about a month before the new series began.
If there's anything T&M have (or at least had at the time), it's a deep and
abiding and articulate love of Silver Age values: short stories adding up to
a larger framework, good heroes and bad villains, and other Desirable Things
<tm>.
Further, while they were always very professional about deciding what to
talk about and what not, some things became clear. One of them is that
Giffen is _very_ strongwilled, and willing to do things more or less out of
pique. The handling of Polar Boy (issue V4 #12, wasn't it?) was in response
to an ultimatum from Keith that the character would be permanently removed,
so either T&M could write him out or Keith would kill him. Likewise, it was
Keith's intent to make all the older LSH members be the clones, and it took
effort to persuade him othrwise. And so it went.
The peculiar thing to me was, given how much T&M liked the old work, how
little they seemed to realize how much their own efforts were destroying
that heritage. But this was not, so nearly as I can tell, part of any
fiendish plan.
--
bru...@teleport.com
"The Cherokees is excaped from Fort Mudge!"
Kynn Bartlett
Michael E. McKean <mmc...@tempest.ucsd.edu> wrote:
>Marc (Mean Mister Mustard) pointed out that it was the Byrne-Superman
>retcon that screwed up LSH continuity in the first place. Then he asks,
>"What will this retcon screw up?"
>The answer to that is obvious. The Byrne Superman continuity.
Two words:
IRONIC JUSTICE
--Grev Mallor @ LegionMUSH
Karl Hiller
Do you think that, by the time they get around to retelling that story,
maybe there will be no one left reading the book who remembers who the
main villain is? So it can be a mystery to everyone all over again!!
Yay!! :(
Karl
* RM 1.3 * Eval Day 17 * Darkwho?
Bruce Baugh
: Speaking of the Great Darkness Saga...
: Do you think that, by the time they get around to retelling that story,
: maybe there will be no one left reading the book who remembers who the
: main villain is? So it can be a mystery to everyone all over again!!
Hard to say, but I reacted differently to Great Darkness first time around.
See, I'm a New Gods fan (based almost entirely on encountering Engelhart's
version at an impressionable age). So I knew darned well who Darkseid is.
It's just that it never occurred to me that he might show up in the Legion's
time...
Michael Vickers
In a previous article, m...@iao.ford.com (Mike O'Connor) says:
>:There were other problems as well -- missing characters (Steve Lombard,
>:where are you?), redefined characters (the kinder, gentler, Morgan Edge),
>:and new/changed situations (Clark's no longer behind the anchor desk, with
>:all the problems that followed). Not to mention the lack of Kara Zor-El and
>:a completely different Luthor.
>
>The Pre-Crisis' Superman's history was becoming a source of baggage.
>I never really cared for Kent the broadcaster or Morgan Edge. Having
>Steve Lombard around in some form like a sportswriter would be a nice
>touch, if only so I can see Supes face when he gets called "Clarkie"
>for the first time. :)
>
>I wish Luthor were more of the super-genius than he is currently --
>just because he joined the hair club for men is no excuse to lose
>his intelligence. :)
>
> ...Mike
Actually, Steve Lombard does exist in current (pre-ZH) continuity,
according to the "Death of Superman" issue of NEWSTIME, where he is
mentioned as being laid off by Edge and having his toupee fly off his head
and land in his co-host's cleavage while on a live telethon...
BTW, I *much* prefer the post-Crisis Luthor to the guy in the
purple-and-green battlesuit (who was himself a slight revamp of the guy in
the purple bodysuit from the 70s, who was himself etc etc) - the fact of
the matter is that Supes even now is so tough that to make Luthor able to
stand up to him physically is really stretching credibility... making his
power financial and political, however, lets him fight Supes in an arena
where they're considerably more equal. I will agree, though, that Lex has
been acting pretty dumb lately (such as expecting the Kryptonian
battlesuit to do jack all to Supes) but I still think the basic concept is
sound - can you imagine what Lois & Clark would have been like with the
*old* Luthor?
--
Michael Vickers ac...@Freenet.carleton.ca
R Scott Smith
>Also, remember (those of you who compare this retcon to the Byrne-Superman
>one) that it was that very retconning that screwed up LSH continuity in
>the first place. What will this retcon screw up?
Legion appearances in the 20th Century. Superman and Booster Gold come to
mind. And I though I read (in the ZH Wizard posting) that Superman
continuity was sacrosanct. That means that we CAN'T erase Legion-Supes
meetings (I recall two of them, post-Byrne.) How will that be explained?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
R Scott Smith "What power would HELL have if those here
imprisoned were not able to DREAM of
HEAVEN?" Neil Gaiman
"The Sandman"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David T. Chappell
>Legion appearances in the 20th Century. Superman and Booster Gold come to
>mind. And I though I read (in the ZH Wizard posting) that Superman
>continuity was sacrosanct. That means that we CAN'T erase Legion-Supes
>meetings (I recall two of them, post-Byrne.) How will that be explained?
I recall five Superman-LSH post-Byrne encounters. Cosmic Boy (in his own
title), the LSH-Superboy cross-over, Booster Gold, and twice in "Time and Time
Again." The final story is about to be reprinted as a trade paperback, so it'd
be interesting if they invalidate it a week later.
R Scott Smith
>From: dav...@rains-pc-27a.stanford.edu (David T. Chappell)
>Subject: Re: LSH: post-Zero Hour SPOILERS
>Date: 8 Jul 1994 04:35:35 GMT
>In <RSSMITH.35...@CHEMICAL.watstar.uwaterloo.ca>, RSS...@CHEMICAL.watstar.uwaterloo.ca (R Scott Smith) writes:
>>Legion appearances in the 20th Century. Superman and Booster Gold come to
>>mind. And I though I read (in the ZH Wizard posting) that Superman
>>continuity was sacrosanct. That means that we CAN'T erase Legion-Supes
>>meetings (I recall two of them, post-Byrne.) How will that be explained?
>I recall five Superman-LSH post-Byrne encounters. Cosmic Boy (in his own
>title), the LSH-Superboy cross-over, Booster Gold, and twice in "Time and Time
>Again." The final story is about to be reprinted as a trade paperback, so it'd
>be interesting if they invalidate it a week later.
I wasn't counting the Cosmic Boy mini or the Cos meeting in Legends (I'm not
sure where it was), or the Booster Gold, since I don't recall Supes being
involved in that. And I counted the "Time and Time Again" meetings as one,
since they were the same storyline. (Not trying to cover up, just don't
want to seem dumb, since I do have all of the above already.)