what constitutes a 'good' carnatic concert?
sur...@ibm.net
in the context of song raga selection, the length of raga alaapanai
etc. the traditional format will start with a varnam, an invocation to
Lord Ganesha, a couple of short songs, etc.
Some questions come to mind:
- is it appropriate to sing (in the sense of:: do you enjoy a concert
with) the first song in , say, revati?
- how long should there be alaapanai for a main raagam?
- are there some raagams that just do not have the scope for a long
exposition or can a good artist perform a 45 minute alaapanai in any
raagam?
- What is the 'concert value' of singing a ragam taaanam pallavi in a
raagam like, say, bindumaalini?
- Do you feel disappointed if there is no thillana?
- Should the Raagam thaanam paallavi, if there is one, be in an unusual
thaalam?
i understand that these are all questions of personal taste, but i
cannot help feeling that this ppersonal taste is cultivated by our early
listening patterns. For example, if you grew up listening to the music
of singers like MD Ramanathan and Semmangudi Srinivasa Iyer, you will
have different preferences than if you listened to a lot of nadhaswaram
or Madurai Somu, or if you listened to Unnikrishnan, Vijay Siva and
Bombay Jayashree.
i would love to hear some other opinions on this.
suresh
Ram Venkataraman
sur...@ibm.net wrote:
> what is a 'good' concert?
>
> in the context of song raga selection, the length of raga alaapanai
> etc. the traditional format will start with a varnam, an invocation to
> Lord Ganesha, a couple of short songs, etc.
This 'kutcheri' format is supposed to have been formulated /popularised
byAriyakudi. Tthis is what I call a 'madi kutcheri' when discussing the
possible items any artiste will be singing in a concert in Toronto. Some
artistes do not want/plan to sing a RTP in any particular concert for all
sorts of reasons. And, some audiences (organizers) do not want RTP or
elaborate alaapanas and prefer more 'shorter' items. My point is that there
is no single specific format which works for all
occasions/audiences/artistes.
> Some questions come to mind:
> - is it appropriate to sing (in the sense of:: do you enjoy a concert
> with) the first song in , say, revati?
I do not know whether there is any rule that a varnam cannot be in Revathi.
Orif there is a rule saying Revathi cannot be sung as the first piece,
whether it
is varnam or not. If the artiste is comfortable with singing Revathi as his
first
raga - that is the mood he wants to set for the concert - I say good for
him.
Of course, any audience is composed of all sorts of 'rasikas' with all sorts
of interests. For instance, there are 'rasikas' who spend all the time in
watching
out whether the artiste is rendering the 'raga' technically perfect that
they lose
the 'enjoyment' of that singing. Artiste will be 'putting his life' into
conveying a
particular nuance/bhava to the listener, but this rasika will be worried
about
whether Andhara Gandharam was missing or misplaced. What is a 'good' piece
of singing is so subjective, we cannot give a 'definition' to fit all
circumstances.
TVSankaranarayanan used to quote his uncle Sri Madurai Mani Iyer, that any
concert should be considered 'good' (a 'success' as he terms it), if at
least one
rasika sitting in an obsure corner takes back the feeling which he will
relive
again and again, that the artiste did a particular piece in an excellent
manner
He (Rasika) will be telling his grandchildren or his friends 'annikki TVS
ennamaa thodiyai oru pidi pidichar theriyumaa' ! So a concert/any item in
it
is good if it makes a lasting impression on any or all of the audience
listening
to it and it makes it great, if the artiste also enjoys it and gets a
professional
satisfaction of his work.
> - how long should there be alaapanai for a main raagam?
> - are there some raagams that just do not have the scope for a long
> exposition or can a good artist perform a 45 minute alaapanai in any
> raagam?
> - What is the 'concert value' of singing a ragam taaanam pallavi in a
> raagam like, say, bindumaalini?
Again, all these points are subjective - depends on the audience, time
andthe artiste. Thiruvaduthurai Rajaratnam Pillai is reputed to have given
just Thodi alone for 3-4 hours ! Even if it is not that long in reality, I
am
sure many of his Thodi renderings were 1-2 hours, particularly if they are
done in the Festival Processions around the Temple. We have had a few
artistes (like TNS) taking one hour or more for any one kriti/raga in North
American Concerts. The 'Season' concerts in Madras do not allow for
this 'luxury' - because everyone of them is timebound for less than 3 hrs.
Around 4 hrs is a common norm for the concerts in Toronto and the rare
5+ hrs concerts (like the 1998 Cleveland Festival Concert by TNS) are
also natural in North American Context.
On the question of 'concert value' of doing RTP in obscure/rare ragas like
Bindumalini, I think the jury is still out. I think 'how it is done' is more
relevant or important than 'what raga was used'. Again taking TNS as
a shining example - in 1998 Toronto Thyagaraja Festival he did a great
RTP in the raga 'Tilang'. I haven't heard anybody doing a long alaapana
in Tilang, let alone a RTP. Sri TNS did that RTP so good - I am sure
the whole audience will agree with me on this - it really did not matter
that Tilang is an obsure raga and no one does elobrartion in that raga.
The 'enjoyment' and appreciation would be same whether it was Tilang
or even a so called newly 'invented' raga. The bottom line is a 'good'
rendering is not dependent upon a particular raga, tala, language,
composer, kriti or even that particular artiste. It is the combination of
all the 'right components at the right time at the right place'.
> - Do you feel disappointed if there is no thillana?
> - Should the Raagam thaanam paallavi, if there is one, be in an unusual
> thaalam?
>
Let me give an example. Ashok Ramani was performing in Toronto withNagai
Murali on violin and Mannargudi Easwaran on Mridangam. The
mridangam maestro Trichy Sankaran was in the audience, sitting in the
front, 'putting talam' etc. Ashok Ramani chose to do the RTP in a very
special Tala. The RTP was very good and 'thani' by Easwaran was
very enjoyable - both for himself and for the audience. At the end of
the Thani, Ashok Ramani announced what the Tala was and apprecited
Easwaran's playing and was joined in that appluase by Sankaran. Honestly
speaking, on a personal level, the whole thing was 'over my head'. And I
am quite sure that is the case with a great portion of the audience. Maybe
some of the students of 'laya' and the music critics like Dr.Pasupathy would
have realised the intricacies of that performance and appreciated in the
technical sense. My impression of all this was: the artistes were trying
something special and technically a little bit complicated to execute and
they succeeded to give an enjoyable piece of music even if it is the fine
laya patterns blending in with the whole atmosphere adding 'wholesome'
feeling to the RTP. And we do have countless RTP's in Adi Tala being
judged in two extremes - terrific to terrible!
> i understand that these are all questions of personal taste, but i
> cannot help feeling that this ppersonal taste is cultivated by our early
> listening patterns. For example, if you grew up listening to the music
> of singers like MD Ramanathan and Semmangudi Srinivasa Iyer, you will
> have different preferences than if you listened to a lot of nadhaswaram
> or Madurai Somu, or if you listened to Unnikrishnan, Vijay Siva and
> Bombay Jayashree.
>
Exactly. It all depends what you are looking for in a concert or particular
item.If you are 'nitpicking', you will never - ok. almost never - will get
to enjoy a
good concert. If you can get the 'emotional ambience' of enjoyment by just
being there at that time and 'absorb' the good music, then you will be
getting
more often than not only 'good' concerts.
> i would love to hear some other opinions on this.
Here is my opinion as a music lover and organizer over the past 30+ years.
>
>
> suresh
Let all the concerts you attend be 'good' concerts - 'good' at least to you
as
per your own personal definitions.
Venkataraman
Sundar
A very interesting topic:
I agree that as a concert goer, it is a matter of personal choice.
I apologise for sharing my thoughts more from a lower platform than a
technical one.
I used to 'package' the concerts for my friend and guru (he was another
Suresh); the concerts were in Ahmedabad where the audience is varied; very
few will understand that you tried a variation of a tala in the RTP let one
RTP.
We will normally decide the duration of the concert with an error margin of
15 minutes. I will also take into account the speeches and time gap between
songs (only allowances allowed are having water and getting into the mood of
the next rag).
In the process of selection of songs and the main ragas I used to give
importance to novelty and appeal.
I used to pay attention to the slickness of the concert; I believe that you
lose the audience if you do not have the time sense; (pardon me for saying
this: half the guys hearing may be wondering how to get back home after the
concert; we sing for them also). I used to have a fast song after a main
raga so that the tempo of the concert is maintained.
Not more than four thukkadas in the end. Lots of them makes a concert a
drab.
There will definitely be a tillana; an interesting tukkada may peplace at
times a thirupugazh.
This is what I look for also if i go to a concert.
Sundar
sur...@ibm.net wrote in message <36764E98...@ibm.net>...
>what is a 'good' concert?
>
>in the context of song raga selection, the length of raga alaapanai
>etc. the traditional format will start with a varnam, an invocation to
>Lord Ganesha, a couple of short songs, etc.
>
>Some questions come to mind:
>- is it appropriate to sing (in the sense of:: do you enjoy a concert
>with) the first song in , say, revati?
>- how long should there be alaapanai for a main raagam?
>- are there some raagams that just do not have the scope for a long
>exposition or can a good artist perform a 45 minute alaapanai in any
>raagam?
>- What is the 'concert value' of singing a ragam taaanam pallavi in a
>raagam like, say, bindumaalini?
>- Do you feel disappointed if there is no thillana?
>- Should the Raagam thaanam paallavi, if there is one, be in an unusual
>thaalam?
>
>i understand that these are all questions of personal taste, but i
>cannot help feeling that this ppersonal taste is cultivated by our early
>listening patterns. For example, if you grew up listening to the music
>of singers like MD Ramanathan and Semmangudi Srinivasa Iyer, you will
>have different preferences than if you listened to a lot of nadhaswaram
>or Madurai Somu, or if you listened to Unnikrishnan, Vijay Siva and
>Bombay Jayashree.
>
>i would love to hear some other opinions on this.
>
>suresh
>
Srinivasd
>I used to 'package' the concerts for my friend and guru
Interesting response by sm_sundar in this thread indeed... even if I don't
agree with everything in the post. The reason: there is a sense of proportion
about what musicians can offer and audience can realistically expect for a
one-shot done deal. The latter either pay or gain entrance somehow purportly
to enjoy some moments with classics. Going by the reviews on RMIC, I wonder, if
the American dEsi audience is more demanding than giving as though standing in
a line for fast-food reciting the mantra 'customer is always right' (especially
when one's 'relative' could be the cashier or fast-food assembler :).
In an ideal setting for classics here are some of my views:
First off, there should be no expectation about the duration of a concert.
Several years ago a famous vocalist from India was accused of 'short changing'
the audiences who drove from various parts of mid-west and 'gained' entrance to
his concert. Having heard the contemptuous under-tones from the so called
'disappointed rasikAs' I have no sympathy for them. Mid-west is such a
far-flung place (like tri-state and silicon-valley), any out-of-ordinary
(except may be for a cow darshan) pleasure seeking trip turns into a long
drive. Add to that incliment weather and unexpected traffic scenarios
especially for inexperienced dEsi drivers in expensive leased cars. Enough
about midwest. The artistes receiving 'percentages of door collection' don't
have to extend their planned performance 'cos the 'last customer' happened to
arrive before what would be a 'mangalam'. On the other hand, this issue would
not araise for an advertised 'chamber' or 'house' performance where the 'hosts'
or 'owners' can turn away the demanding thrill seeking drifters at the door
step, albeit in social terms. In the alleged mid-western incident I side with
the artiste who chose to cut his performance short for whatever unannounced
reasons after obliging to sing a few krithis. This is more consistent with the
dEsi 'buffets' where one may like everything but choose to eat very little
while paying the same price as a 'hungry drifter.'
Secondly, the so called 'kucheri' of Sri.Ariyakudi gets repeated in RMIC as
though he was left out of the trinity by an accident. I think there is a reason
why 'artistes' are who they are. You can bring an artiste to people but can't
make the artiste serve them like a business can.
Thirdly, there is no 'scripture' about beginning
and ending a concert with 'standard patterns' one expects in a 'satyanArayana
vratam' or someone's bethrothal. A concert is both social and artistic
gathering of similar minds, but never a place to seek 'deliverence' or some
'boon.'
Fourthly, if there ever was an a la carte menu designed for concerts as
'vAtapi, rAgam, RTP, alApana, krithi, varnam, thillana, thukkada,
thani.......mangalam' then IMO (like the ones before and to follow) it was
prepared for kumbHakarna. Most normal people can't take all those sound bytes
(reiterating the earlier 'buffet' analogy and appending to kumbHakarna's
eat-sleep patterns) sometimes delivered in strange languages. If an artiste is
willing to do all that for 'one flat rate', then the audience need not be
obligated to take in all of that in 'one flat sitting.' I'd expect quality
minded people both on and off stage to determine their 'time to leave' without
any worry about getting paid less or expectation of partial 'refunds.'
Especially when someone arrives late and leaves prematurely, it won't look
like good 'sponsor-customer' relationship, but the real sponsors should know
that utilities they rent can 'go away' just like that not to mention fire
alarms 'setting off' regardless of their feelings and objections.
Finally, a good carnatic concert is one where the artistes and audience show up
on time no matter how long they sit together and what 'kucheri padHati' they
indulge in. When one can't make the time schedule, there has to be mutual
understanding about human fraility to 'follow all rules set by the elite who
most probably never intended to apply the rules for themselves.' Having said
that, the rules about concert etiquette are good if they are also posted
somewhere (perhaps on back of the ticket stub or on a flyer). I'd like to see
this as one of the rules at the bottom: 'this is not a service-oriented
business where you can return for full/partial refunds or exchange the
merchandise because neither the artistes nor the sponsors offer bar-coded
products coming out of assembly-line industries.'
raj...@md2.vsnl.net.in
two hours concert I do not personally like fifteen songs all given in jet
speed with capsule alapanas, capsule swaras etc. I would like to have the
following pathathi for a two or two and half-hour concert which is now usual
in India
1. a brisk varnam for warming up 2. a small song in a delightful and pleasant
raga 3. an elaborate alapana in a raga in which the performer is well versed
a good medium pace sakhtya with quite an extensive niraval and swara
prasthara followed by thani 4. not less than four delightful bajans, slokas,
folk music etc. I do not want to call these by the pejorative expression
"thukada"
This arrangement will be ideal for a two-hour concert; I realize that
ariyakudi fans will think of me blasphemous in trying to change the pathathi
set up by him. In his days he himself was revolutionary in changing the
concert management to suit a four-hour concert in Sabhas. In any society the
old revolutionaries become the establishment in course of time.
If a performer sings or plays continuously ragas like revati, varali, and
dhenuka naturally it will be dull. But this is only subjective opinion.
Regarding elaborate alapana in ragas like Bindumalini I think it depends upon
the performer. Dwaram Venkatasamy Naidu used to play beautiful alapanas in
ragas like Kaanada or sahana.
My personal opinion is that Ragam, Thanam, Pallavi should be sung only in
specialised concerts of knowledgeable persons and not for lay rasikas. Most
people may not understand "eduppu two places from the samam"
We need many musical critics of younger age group particularly those who have
not heard directly the stalwarts like Ariyakudi. Ariyakudi and his
contemporaries were great performers. But to say the music has deteriorated
after these stalwarts is prejudiced opinion. Perhaps in another forty years
then the then old men will say that there has not been and there will never be
musicians like Sudha raghunathan, jayashree, sanjay etc. etc. Whatever you
experience in your young age with the young spouse by your side will always
remains in your memory.
venkataraman
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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Rms2020
I believe there is no accurate recipe: you will know whether it IS one or not
only when you have listened to it. To use the food analogy again: what is a
good dosa? One can have a standard sort of recipe, but as we all know, each
person's dosa turns out differently and sometimes even that is not consistent.
A lot depends on the type of rice, type of dhal, and many other factors.
The "concert Paddhathi" has been taught merely as a sort of recommended
guidelines and not an arbitrary set of "commandments". These guidelines are
based upon the experience and knowledge of the musicologists and musicians,
upon what would "sound" good in juxtaposition with the next piece and so on,
and not a dictatorial whim of theoreticians. It is formulated for the benefit
of budding artists, so that he/she would not (due to lack of experience and
practical knowledge) mix and match in a way where the end result would be
chaotic or unbalanced.
In essence, the "concert Paddhathi" is a more simple concept than what some
postings seem to allege.
Meena Shanker
rajagopalan
concert", here is a thought. if society got advanced enough and it became
cheap enough to hold a concert, we may have a chance to go away from the
"one-size-fits-all" concert format that is more or less in vogue today. the
economics of a concert (more so in the u.s. than in india) are such that it is
imperative that the organizers cast a wide net to attract all sorts of
listeners and hence a concert must necessarily have enough for every category
of listener that one wants to attract. if anything, the fact that such a
format exists today and is so successful is nothing short of miraculous given
the context of an economically developing country like india where people do
not have a lot of extra money. that said, we can also hope that as we progress
economically we will also be able to "afford" many kinds of concerts to suit
the various tastes of the listeners. until then, we will have to wear filters
to concerts. :-) i do not think that the so-called "ariyakudi" format for
south icm concerts is flawed. what i question is the rigidity that some
ascribe to it that does not seem to have existed even in the great ariyakudi's
concerts!
a friend of mine once commented that carnatic music is not a performing art, in
the sense that the best music is to be found in non-standardized formats, not
in concerts. this is probably true of any form of art.
if i were to suggest a variation in the tradition, what i would like to see
more than concerts are the informal or semi-formal sessions (the closest term i
can think of is "baithak" that i cannot translate adequately) where all kinds
of artists with varying degrees of skill can perform with some semblance of
independence from the vicissitudes of current fashion. on the surface, it
seems that all one needs is a basement and a regular schedule but things can be
more complicated.
the main problem (having been minimally involved in organizing concerts) seems
to be economics again. when i was in boston, mass., some time back, i was
trying to get people together to have a regular "session" when a tabla player
expressed a need for some kind of remuneration. i thought his desire was very
legitimate. after all, unlike us amateurs who have alternate means of
sustenance, a friday or saturday night is a prime time for a professional
musician to be spending time on non-remunerative enjoyment. but i could not
find a way to collect money at the session that would not be considered rude.
i briefly considered instituting a collection from the attendees but there were
questions such as how to share the money collected etc. that i could not answer
to my satisfaction. after all, almost every one present was participating to
some extent. however, i also felt that the amateurs "owed" the professionals
in the midst in a way that is highly ambiguous but real. on the other hand,
how does one distinguish an amateur from one who is not? in the more feudal
days, such sessions would perhaps be funded by a host or patron. i have heard
that sometimes artists hosted each other but every time there would always be
some form of payment to the main artists even if the host was himself/herself
an artist of the same ilk and hence not much richer.
in these more democratic days, i hope for a way that would cater to all the
quarters without the need for a rich host and yet not have to go through the
economic and administrative overhead of a full-scale concert. i would like to
hear ideas on this from folks here. perhaps, there is something like this in
indian or non-indian music (or otherwise) circles that we could borrow and
adapt. if it were successful, we would possibly be rewarded with a sustainable
alternative to concerts.
happy holidays,
raj
---
s. rajagopalan
raghav
> re: the various posts on the topic of "what constitutes a good carnatic
> concert", here is a thought. if society got advanced enough and it became
> cheap enough to hold a concert, we may have a chance to go away from the
> "one-size-fits-all" concert format that is more or less in vogue today. the
> economics of a concert (more so in the u.s. than in india) are such that it is
> imperative that the organizers cast a wide net to attract all sorts of
> listeners and hence a concert must necessarily have enough for every category
> of listener that one wants to attract. if anything, the fact that such a
> format exists today and is so successful is nothing short of miraculous given
> the context of an economically developing country like india where people do
> not have a lot of extra money. that said, we can also hope that as we progress
> economically we will also be able to "afford" many kinds of concerts to suit
> the various tastes of the listeners. until then, we will have to wear filters
> to concerts. :-) i do not think that the so-called "ariyakudi" format for
> south icm concerts is flawed. what i question is the rigidity that some
> ascribe to it that does not seem to have existed even in the great ariyakudi's
> concerts!
I personally think the Ariyakudi format sucks and is the major reason of why
Carnatic
classical concerts are not as enjoyable as Hindustani ones. The singer ususally
ends up elaborating only ghana ragas like todi, kambhoji or kalyani leaving
beautiful
ragas like Abhogi, Hamsanadam, Malayamarutam(and hosts of others) in the cold. I
have listened to umpteen "Marugelara" or "Brovabarama"s being sung in the same
style by
various singers without their interpretation at all. The actual manodharama starts
only
when the RTP starts.
By the way who was Ariyakudi to set
the standards of kutcheri?
Maybe Ariyakudi knew lots of songs and so he proclaimed everyone should sing
some few thukadas(atleast 5-6) before going onto major pieces. That is the main
reason
why evereyone around has started singing aroung 10-12 krithis per concert. And the
singer has to
keep on learning new ones to attract more audience leaving hime less time to
actually improvise on
thepieces he knows. I have a concert tape of Ariyakudi where he has sung 15 ragas.
It was good but the raga knowledge I got was nil. Anyday I prefer m.D.Ramanthan's
style which was more relaxing and had a few krithis and the user gets involved
with the
raga and the composition.
My 2 cents
Raghav
Srinivasd
>I personally think the Ariyakudi format sucks and is the major reason of why
>Carnatic
>classical concerts are not as enjoyable as Hindustani ones.
Such honesty takes toll on the ears ;-). 'Think it was Jasraj in a hindusthani
concert I went to who sang just one piece for what seemed like an eternity. One
could bicker over the superiority of 'Jasraj format' vs. 'Ariyakudi format'.
The enduring artistes seem to make up a format on the fly based on the audience
turn out (and turn off). The organizers of carnatic concerts however are
fretting over the 'marketing' aspect and like all good salespeople are
promoting 'time tested' formats. As they do, they seem to be ignoring the
maxims 'time is of essence' and 'time is money.'
Ooha!
I have exactly the opposite opinion!
If any - the Hindustani style is what sucks. Most Hindustani concerts are
boring. They draaag on and on while the artist is 'roughing' it through the
one goddamn raga that he picked. Half the time there are no lyrics for
the piece. What do I care what ragam that is?
I think the Carnatic music concert platform has much more to offer and keep
one entertained. It not only solicits the technically oriented' listener
but also the general music lover. It doesn't matter if it is Ariyakudi /or
some other idiot that has put it together.
What is wrong with both systems is no one makes changes. It is the same
old- same old.
** I like MS SHEELA's extensions of RTP's ( Listen to her 96 Toronto
concert and 98 Cleveland concert) where she extends the RTP into a
ragamalika at the end.
** In place of dumb instruments like 'ghatam', they should introduce new
accompaniments.
** There is an over emphasis of percussion in Carnatic- They should shorten
the 'thani' .Believe me if you get rid of the Thani and cut the violinist's
time, at least two more RTP's can be inserted into a concert.
** Most of the sahityam is 'religious. What is with this? Why can't they
pick some 'non-religious poetry to fit in.
No offence- just my 2cents as well.
raghav wrote in message <367FC351...@in.oracle.com>...
R YAMUNACHARI
Hello,
I have been reading the views expressed by many of you. There are
supporting and opposing opinions on the Ariyakudi's style of a concert. In
good old days I have heard music stalwarts like Madurai Somu, Mani Iyer,
Sheik Chinna Moulana and a host of others. They are known to take their
every concert (and the audience) seriousely. What a reporterie. The
Maduarai Somu concert on a Vinayak Chathurthi day in 1975 in Mayavaram
still lingers in my mind. Boy !, he went on singing for 4 and half hours;
and still was roaring to go on. It was 12.30 a.m the next day. Kutcheries
in those days used to last for atleast 3 hours. There was no interference.
No film songs. They used to start with a brisk Hamsadhwani or Nattai or
Dharbar. A few few classics from Thyagaraja , Shastri, and Dhikshithar.
Then a Panchratna krithi (usually Endaro mahanu ), followed by a RTP in a
Ghana raga. They wrapped up the concert with light raga krithis and
thillanas.
This is what Ariyakudi expected and set the standard for rendition.His
contemporaries also accepted the practice. As the concert duration shrank,
singers squeezed the time for rendition of each item. Every one is trying
to eat his cake and have it too.
Today's listeners do not have the time and energy to spend sitting and
listen to the singers. The singers also do not have the reporterie to keep
their listeners interested for more than 2 hours. Like the one-day cricket,
classical music concert also has shrunk in format and variety. But it keeps
every one satisfied overall.
Any format is good as long as there is someone to accept it. Today even if
some musician is ready to give a 4 hour concert, the Sabhas will out right
reject the idea.
Thanks,
Rangarajan.
Stamford, CT.
Rms2020
From: "Ooha!" <ramabo...@sprynet.com>
Date: 12/24/98 9:01 AM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <75thop$5vt$1...@juliana.sprynet.com>
"Ooha" wrote:
>It doesn't matter if it is Ariyakudi /or
>some other idiot that has put it together.
>** In place of dumb instruments like 'ghatam', they should introduce new
>accompaniments.
>** There is an over emphasis of percussion in Carnatic- They should shorten
>** In place of dumb instruments like 'ghatam', they should introduce new
>accompaniments.
>** There is an over emphasis of percussion in Carnatic- They should shorten
>the 'thani' .Believe me if you get rid of the Thani and cut the violinist's
>time, at least two more RTP's can be inserted into a concert.
>** Most of the sahityam is 'religious. What is with this? Why can't they
>pick some 'non-religious poetry to fit in.
! ! ! ! ! ! ?????? Am I reading this correctly?
I believe we have reached a point of no return. This most recent posting
leads me to believe that these discussions, all of which ran almost
concurrently, and which were overlapping each other in subject matter - what
constitutes a good concert, aspects of Thani, and backseat performers and
audience participation, have reached a dead end. Everyone has the right to
dislike the existing concert formats, dislike and criticize the way fine arts
events are organized, dislike artists, dislike Thani, like Western instruments;
in short, is entitled to one's opinions and preferences on anything or anyone
connected. But must we become so conceited and arrogant as to refer to any one
especially elderly musicians, particularly those who are deceased, as
"idiots"? Do any of us have the credentials to do so?
I rest my case.
Meena Shanker
Srinivasd
Depends on who the poster is between 'from' and 'sender' fields (this is not
a chat group to reference "handles") based on 'path.' Refer you to a spate of
spams recently in SCI from concentric.net. The poster ramabo...@sprynet.com
is utilizing freedom of speech to dumb down the discussion (if it was any
smart to begin with :) which is also largely the trend in other RMIC threads.
> But must we become so conceited and arrogant as to refer to any one
>especially elderly musicians, particularly those who are deceased, as
>"idiots"?
>Do any of us have the credentials to do so?
On the other hand, RMIC is not some alt.religion group. With regards to idiots,
by some accounts there are more of them alive than ever before.
man...@earthlink.net
music, in this newsgroup. Often these guys (A.P. crowd) who consider themselves to
be the self-appointed professors of music, discount the fact what they r worth in
the ever- changing music world! Lastly, comments on deceased Ariyakudi was
inappropriate to the topic. I am in agreement with Meena. If u dont like 'thani,'
take a break, walk out and enjoy the place ur in.
R.M
Rms2020 wrote:
> Subject: Re: on alternate concert formats...
> From: "Ooha!" <ramabo...@sprynet.com>
> Date: 12/24/98 9:01 AM Eastern Standard Time
> Message-id: <75thop$5vt$1...@juliana.sprynet.com>
>
> "Ooha" wrote:
> >It doesn't matter if it is Ariyakudi /or
> >some other idiot that has put it together.
>
> >** In place of dumb instruments like 'ghatam', they should introduce new
> >accompaniments.
> >** There is an over emphasis of percussion in Carnatic- They should shorten
>
> >** In place of dumb instruments like 'ghatam', they should introduce new
> >accompaniments.
> >** There is an over emphasis of percussion in Carnatic- They should shorten
>
> >the 'thani' .Believe me if you get rid of the Thani and cut the violinist's
> >time, at least two more RTP's can be inserted into a concert.
> >** Most of the sahityam is 'religious. What is with this? Why can't they
> >pick some 'non-religious poetry to fit in.
>
> ! ! ! ! ! ! ?????? Am I reading this correctly?
> I believe we have reached a point of no return. This most recent posting
> leads me to believe that these discussions, all of which ran almost
> concurrently, and which were overlapping each other in subject matter - what
> constitutes a good concert, aspects of Thani, and backseat performers and
> audience participation, have reached a dead end. Everyone has the right to
> dislike the existing concert formats, dislike and criticize the way fine arts
> events are organized, dislike artists, dislike Thani, like Western instruments;
> in short, is entitled to one's opinions and preferences on anything or anyone
> connected. But must we become so conceited and arrogant as to refer to any one
> especially elderly musicians, particularly those who are deceased, as
> "idiots"? Do any of us have the credentials to do so?
Rms2020
below:
Subject: Re: on alternate concert formats...
Message-id: <19981228123428...@ng-ce1.aol.com>
>Depends on who the poster is between 'from' and 'sender' fields (this is
>not
>a chat group to reference "handles") based on 'path.' Refer you to a spate
>of
>spams recently in SCI from concentric.net. The poster
>ramabo...@sprynet.com
>is utilizing freedom of speech to dumb down the discussion (if it was any
>smart to begin with :) which is also largely the trend in other RMIC threads.
>
>> But must we become so conceited and arrogant as to refer to any one
>>especially elderly musicians, particularly those who are deceased, as
>>"idiots"?
>>Do any of us have the credentials to do so?
>
>On the other hand, RMIC is not some alt.religion group. With regards to
>idiots,
>by some accounts there are more of them alive than ever before.
O.K., so you have the ability to point out that perhaps I did not use exactly
accurate terminology in relation to "handles" and "path" etc. while trying
to reference Mr. Ramabommaraju's posting. Hooray for you!!
I admit I do not have any computer related expertise to apply proper lingo
connected with posting on the newsgroup bulletin board, or engaging in a chat
group session. But is that relevant or material to the subject at hand and to
what we have been trying to discuss? We are not discussing computer related
topics here, or comparing each other's savvy in that area.
Do people have "freedom of speech"? Absolutely! Especially here in the U.S.A.
everyone has all kinds of freedoms. I am not challenging anyone's individual
rights or freedoms to express whatever personal opinions they might have, or to
do whatever they want to. But the fact remains that what distinguishes culture
and civilization from barabarism, is the manner in which individuals choose to
use those freedoms in relating to the rest of society. The language any
individual uses to exercise one's freedom of expression is a good barometer of
whether that individual is a gentleman/lady, or otherwise.
As far as idiots are concerned - alive or dead, I would recommend following the
adage: "People who live in glass houses should not throw stones"; and the
Bibilcal tenet: "Judge not, lest ye be judged".
Meena Shanker
Srinivasd
features. With other ISPs/NNTP hosts one can use smart agents for reading
news.
Srinivasd
>Often these guys (A.P. crowd) who consider themselves to
>be the self-appointed professors of music, discount the fact what they r
>worth in
>the ever- changing music world!
Of course, this thread wouldn't have met Tamil standards without regionalism
and DMK nationalism. Fortunately, no one has to attend concerts organized by
such zealots to enjoy classical music rain or shine!
Ooha!
I am sorry if it offended you that I comment "Ariyakudi or some other idiot"
in my posting. I did not mean to imply Ariaykudi as an idiot. May be
Ariyakudi was a great saint or may he was an asshole. How do I know? Just
because he is an older musician, it doesn't mean that he was a great guy.
The context was that "irrespective of who invented the style, it is a good
style"! I am sure you all got the point, If you did not- forget it!
Yeah- Mr. Ariayakudi invented a style of Carnatic concert that has been in
prominence for some time. Thank You Mr. Ariyakudi. In spite of what anyone
says, our Carnatic concert style is quite enjoyable.
Subramanian
overtones both covert and overt. The reference to Ariyakkudi was quite
uncalled for on two counts. One is Ariyakkudi was considered one of the
doyens in Carnatic music(ordinary mortals have no place to criticise him in
such language). Secondly, one does not talk in insulting fashion of dead
people since they cannot defend themselves now. Meena Shanker and a lot of
us have every reason to get peeved by the imbecile remarks of a few
inconsiderate individuals. Let us ignore them as unworthy of even being
recognized , let alone being answered.
Subramanian
man...@earthlink.net wrote in article <368F33A1...@earthlink.net>...
> This is not the first time I have read weird comments from the Andhra
crowd about
> music, in this newsgroup. Often these guys (A.P. crowd) who consider
themselves to
> be the self-appointed professors of music, discount the fact what they r
worth in
> the ever- changing music world! Lastly, comments on deceased Ariyakudi
was
> inappropriate to the topic. I am in agreement with Meena. If u dont like
'thani,'
> take a break, walk out and enjoy the place ur in.
>
> R.M
>
>
> Rms2020 wrote:
>
> > Subject: Re: on alternate concert formats...
> > connected. But must we become so conceited and arrogant as to refer to
any one
> > especially elderly musicians, particularly those who are deceased, as
> > "idiots"? Do any of us have the credentials to do so?
Srinivasd
> Secondly, one does not talk in insulting fashion of dead
>people since they cannot defend themselves now. Meena Shanker and a lot of
>us have every reason to get peeved by the imbecile remarks of a few
>inconsiderate individuals.
I hope you see for yourself the lack of logic in the above statements.
>Let us ignore them as unworthy of even being
>recognized , let alone being answered.
More illogic.... coming from a Tamil chauvinist.
An "alternate concert format" is de facto against the wishes of the
establishment. Ariyyakkudi gave rise to the establishment. So debunking all
myths surrounding such an establishment is not blasphemy. A real idiot is the
one who debunks and then apologizes for debunking.
man...@earthlink.net
PS: This is not the response of a Tamil Chauvinist, but a detector
of human vaccum especially in music. The author has categorised the behavior
of a community because of discernable idiosynchrasies in the newsgroups.
The authors credentials in music will become self-evident when you accidently
pick up his CD. Take care
Srinivasd
the misperceptions of battling bulges. Here is a summary:
*) make concerts short and sweet
*) have hourly breaks for long concerts
*) vary the role of percussion in vocal
and non-vocal/instrumental concerts
*) if there is RTP, have several RTPs, but none is ok too
*) rAga alApana need not be for "well known ghana" rAgas only
*) reserve seats for 'singing' or 'participatory' audience (see further
comments below)
*) make no compromises with classical music, but feel free to make changes
- musicians who prefer to enjoy the same seating comfort as the audience (or
stand up) and deliver their music should be encouraged do so
-vice versa for the audience who want to sit on the ground and 'indulge'
More to be added.
>--------------1A99C110943B9B176E0B2889
>Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>
>I appreciate the blend of music and computer knowledge in the expatriate
>Telugu folks. Who else can refer to people as threads and apparition of
>bytes? While words in Telugu are articulated with a singin' tone even at
>the worst point of ones temper, many languages in the world speed up to
>a nasty tone in such an angry situation. Again a medal of patience for
>Cyberbad. Coming to the point, if (big IF, though) battery-operated cars
>become popular, or gas prices go high, or u are sick of filling gas,
>would you blame Henry Ford for inventing fuel-powered cars? So why not
>stop blaming people, and get inventive to establish an alternate format
>of (carnatic) music. Can u?
>
>
><U>PS:</U> This is not the response of a Tamil Chauvinist, but a detector
>of human vaccum especially in music. The author has categorised the behavior
>of a community because of discernable idiosynchrasies in the newsgroups.
>The authors credentials in music will become self-evident when you accidently
>pick up his CD. Take care
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Srinivasd wrote:
><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>>From: "Subramanian " <maha...@bestweb.net>
>
>> Secondly, one does not talk in insulting fashion of dead
>
>>people since they cannot defend themselves now. Meena Shanker
>and a lot of
>
>>us have every reason to get peeved by the imbecile remarks of a few
>
>>inconsiderate individuals.
>
>
>I hope you see for yourself the lack of logic in the above statements.
>
>
>>Let us ignore them as unworthy of even being
>
>>recognized , let alone being answered.
>
>
>More illogic.... coming from a Tamil chauvinist.
>
>An "alternate concert format" is de facto against the wishes of the
>
>establishment. Ariyyakkudi gave rise to the establishment. So debunking
>all
>
>myths surrounding such an establishment is not blasphemy. A real
>idiot is the
>
>one who debunks and then apologizes for debunking.
>
> </BLOCKQUOTE>
>
>
>--------------1A99C110943B9B176E0B2889--
>
>
></PRE></HTML>
Thanjavur
Classical music and not for bashing and name calling the pioneers who played
an unequivocal role in cultivating interests in the minds of thousands of
peoples who appreciated classical/carnatic music and continue to do so.
There are some morons who do not have the mere capability to understand and
appreciate the stalwarts like Ariyakudi, who introduced new techniques
through his imagination and hard work and gurukula.
I even ashamed of myself to respond to such morally corrupt threads where
someone uses such unprintable epithets to refer to eminent gurus. Every one
has to look at their back in a mirror just for a second before even thinking
of writing few words about prominent musicians, whatever it maybe and
whoever it maybe, and especially Ariyakudi.
Oh! what a shame.
Please participate in the discussions if you think you can really contribute
to the classical/carnatic music world in a good way that is at least worth
discussing.
Ofcourse everyone has all kind's of freedoms, and if not the profane thread
would not have appeared at all. Everyone will agree with this. At the same
time there is some basic ground rules (what happened to decency!!!,
ethics!!!, and attitude!!! etc. halo!!) that any human being should stick
to.
Moreover this is a group with all kinds of freedoms and there will ever be a
need to use smart agents to contribute and participate and its group members
participate in a meaningful and worthwhile discussions concerned about
classical/carnatic music.
For theoretical, cutthroat and crappy discussions, members are strongly
encouraged to use a group like meremortal.immusic.for.dummies.
One can bring a pony to a tank but ten cannot make it to drink!
man...@earthlink.net wrote in message <368F33A1...@earthlink.net>...
Thanjavur
Srinivasd
>Moreover this is a group with all kinds of freedoms and there will ever be a
>need to use smart agents to contribute and participate and its group members
>participate in a meaningful and worthwhile discussions concerned about
>classical/carnatic music.
Can you be specific? Apparently you are not using a 'smart agent' for this
post.
>For theoretical, cutthroat and crappy discussions, members are strongly
>encouraged to use a group like meremortal.immusic.for.dummies.
Also (what members? you aren't thinking of your 'sangam' are you?) you are
strongly encouraged to CFV a group like meremortal.ariyyakkudi.for.tamils (let
me know if you want to know).
Nick Haynes
(Subramanian) wrote:
> I usually get enraged when criticism takes derogatory and insulting
> overtones both covert and overt. The reference to Ariyakkudi was quite
> uncalled for on two counts. One is Ariyakkudi was considered one of the
> doyens in Carnatic music(ordinary mortals have no place to criticise
> him in
> such language). Secondly, one does not talk in insulting fashion of dead
> people since they cannot defend themselves now. Meena Shanker and a
> lot of
> us have every reason to get peeved by the imbecile remarks of a few
> inconsiderate individuals. Let us ignore them as unworthy of even being
> recognized , let alone being answered.
>
> Subramanian
>
Yes, it is a pity that this thread and its parents, which started,
admittedly, with some moans and grumbles, has now passed out of its
constructive and informed stage and descended into negativity.
Best Wishes,
N i c k
Nick Haynes.
Rms2020
into a sort of analysis of the First Amendment. A few posters have written
that as some of the postings are written in very insulting tones and very foul
language, they deserve no response and are not worthy of attention. I am very
much inclined to agree, but nevertheless, I have a few points to make:
1. 'Ooha' says: "May be Ariyakudi was a great saint or may he was an asshole.
How do I know?". I must concede that I (or many other people) do not know
for sure whether Ariyakudi (or any other musician) is a saint or a scoundrel.
But that aspect is totally immaterial here. He is not here on trial for any
known transgressions, nor are we here to judge his eligibility for sainthood.
Therefore, logically speaking, I do not have to automatically assume that he is
a scoundrel, and therefore conclude that he deserves to be referred to in
derogatory terms. But I don't have to elevate him to the level of a saint
either, and I can just as well give him the benefit of the doubt and imagine
that he is somewhere in between, and refer to him in at least neutral and
decent terms. This is not a moralistic preachy statement, but one made in the
interest of common decency and social sensitivity.
2. 'Ooha' further says: "Just because he is an older musician, it doesn't mean
that he was a great guy." This argument is something I have heard only in this
country, coming from even little children. I am not expecting that all old
people be automatically designated as "great guys" (or gals). But our ancient
culture and heritage is one that exhorts us to respect age and knowledge. We
all know for a fact that Ariyakudi (and other similar musicians) have more
knowledge than most of us - at least in the realm of music. And, as long as a
person has not been proven to have done serious wrong to anyone, that person
does deserve at least some respect.
3. While some seem to be preoccupied with regional or language divides, most
readers do not pay the slightest attention to those boundaries. The contents
are what matter, not whether it is by Tamilians, Telugu, D.M.K., Communist,
Congress, Republicans, or Democrats.
4. Bad language is just as noxious and smells just as foul no matter who says
it or in what language - it is immaterial whether it is Tamil, Telugu, Hindi,
Sanskrit, or Swahili. But I dare say that while many very freely seem to use
dirty language in English, whether in conversation or in print, not many would
use the same words translated into Tamil or any of our other vernaculars - they
are just too gross! I am aware that some people consider it to be
fashionable, progressive and "modern" to use dirty gutter language in
English. It is considered part of "mainstreaming", "blending in", and being
"cool". After all, we hear it used by many comedians and showbiz people, and
they certainly are popular and get some laughs. Perhaps some of us who don't
relish it belong to a very different generation, (or class) and may be rather
conservative.
As for the First Amendment, I have some thoughts on that:
a) Clean language is something no one will object to, and therefore everyone
will read when that is the vehicle. Therefore it follows that if only in a
sort of self-serving way, as a practical strategy for effectiveness, it would
be to one's advantage to use readable language to convey one's point of view.
b) Conversely, bad language is definitely objectionable to at least a section
of readers, who will automatically spot a perpetual user of it as Mr. X, Y, or
Ms.Z, and stop reading their postings. In his posting Mr. Srinivasd throws
out a challenge: "AOL 4.0 has filters to eliminate unwanted posts based on
several "offending" features. With other ISPs/NNTP hosts one can use smart
agents for reading news." This is a very clever piece of advice, but rather
ill-advised! By insisting on using bad language and challenging people to
stop reading if they are offended, one has actually achieved the opposite
results - that of decreasing one's readership. And even if people read, the
main message gets lost in the feeling of nausea that grips the reader. In
effect, that person has wittingly or unwittingly sabotaged their own mission,
assuming that it is their serious intent to disseminate information or personal
opinions, and not merely to offend readers and create needless ill feeling.
May this topic rest in peace.
Meena Shanker
Srinivasd
<good advice snipped>
>While some seem to be preoccupied with regional or language divides, most
>readers do not pay the slightest attention to those boundaries.
They expressed wholesale disdain for Telugus *after* an apology was posted by
their nemesis. AFAIC, they can regularly do this after getting cross-post
privileges in soc.culture.indian.telugu (or the SCIT :-).
>This [using filters/agents to eliminate unwanted posts]is a very clever piece
of advice, but rather
>ill-advised!
Why? 'Cos you want people to read your rather long posts and at the same time
you want some people to get off this NG/ internet? I hope not.
man...@earthlink.net
Although the usher of the 21st century deserves a revised format, I am not sure
your suggestions will gain the appreciation of a wide audience. My initial feeling
is that there is no original denomination in ur suggestion; seems more like a
modification of existing format. A shift in a musical format, with roots, needs
strong justification. World has witnessed that such a basic shift is promulgated by
a fool-proof original idea. In reply to your fluffy suggestions, I state that
perhaps (am kinda sure..) few modern/young carnatic singers have already adopted
some of the changes. If the "revised format" is partially in vogue, even today,
then those suggestions of yours will be considered plagiarised. Fundamentally
speaking, your suggestions are of the type a mechanic would come up by assembling
cars rather than an engineer after research. i.e., suggestions derived from
practice are not as glamorous as those derived from theory and later put into
practice, most likely for the first time. I recommend you post your summary as a
separate post and solicit responses.
Good Luck!
R.M
Srinivasd wrote:
> >> > Secondly, one does not talk in insulting fashion of dead
> >> >people since they cannot defend themselves now. Meena Shanker and a lot
> >of
> >> >us have every reason to get peeved by the imbecile remarks of a few
> >> >inconsiderate individuals.
> >>
> >> I hope you see for yourself the lack of logic in the above statements.
> >>
> >> >Let us ignore them as unworthy of even being
> >> >recognized , let alone being answered.
> >>
> >> Secondly, one does not talk in insulting fashion of dead
> >
> >>people since they cannot defend themselves now. Meena Shanker
> >and a lot of
> >
> >>us have every reason to get peeved by the imbecile remarks of a few
> >
> >>inconsiderate individuals.
> >
> >
> >I hope you see for yourself the lack of logic in the above statements.
> >
> >
> >>Let us ignore them as unworthy of even being
> >
> >>recognized , let alone being answered.
> >
> >
Ooha!
Rms2020
the NG/internet.
I was merely expressing objections to dirty language. But if some people don't
see the light and wish to wade in the gutter, that is their prerogative. The
others just have to stay away from them.
There are quite a few people besides myself who writes long posts - it
sometimes takes that to get some points across.
Fortunately however, there are only a very few who use dirty language, and a
few who write in a very contentious language and tone, but without adequate
substance.
Srinivasd
>Fundamentally
>speaking, your suggestions are of the type a mechanic would come up by
>assembling
>cars rather than an engineer after research. i.e., suggestions derived from
>practice are not as glamorous as those derived from theory and later put into
>practice, most likely for the first time. I recommend you post your summary
>as a
>separate post and solicit responses.
>
>Good Luck!
>
>R.M
Dear fellow CARnataka Technician: the post was a summary of contributions by
the thread posters, notably, except you.
If you want my idea of a "real alternate concert format," right off-the-bat
will suggest aboard space station, with listeners on the earth. That however
may already have been thought of by some NASA's western music buff. So on
second thought, will settle for any outdoor venue where there are no 'fire
alarms' and people can sing/play their hearts out with the lead/main musicians.
This too has already been tried by the western musicians on the beaches.
My final offering is:
musicians on separate stages on the venue corners with audio/visual
interaction. People bored with rAga alApana can turn to the mridangist who puts
on his/her (thani) show on another corner. Of course making sure that musicians
are in 'sound-proof spaces' requires some more thought but can be done
inexpensively with see-thru plastic tents. And the sound inside the 'spaces'
can be beamed to the audience by 'directional' stereos.
Krishna Rayaprolu
language and write outrageous articles in the NGs. Studies have indicated that
such people have some psychological problems or complexes and they need a lot of
attention. These people find NGs as the best vehicles to grab people's attention
since the audience is large and they don't have to see the reader's faces.
The article suggests that the best punishment you can give to such people is by
ignoring them. Something that doesn't happen in this NG at all. Replying to such
posts in a heated way is probably the best way to encourage them.
Thanjavur
Krishna Rayaprolu wrote in message <3693E9CC...@staff.prodigy.com>...
man...@earthlink.net
quitz
Srinivasd wrote:
>
> >Fundamentally
> >speaking, your suggestions are of the type a mechanic would come up by
> >assembling
> >cars rather than an engineer after research. i.e., suggestions derived from
> >practice are not as glamorous as those derived from theory and later put into
> >practice, most likely for the first time. I recommend you post your summary
> >as a
> >separate post and solicit responses.
> >
> >Good Luck!
> >
> >R.M
>
Rms2020
Meena Shanker
Srinivasd
>so shallow is this summary, this newsgroup is infested by.....
>
>quitz
Refer to dictionary for the meanings of summary and alternate; and also on how
to write 'meaningful' sentences in the English language.
Nick Haynes
(Rms2020) wrote:
> Ditto/Amen - to both "Thanjavur" and Krishna Rayaprolu
>
> Meena Shanker
>
Absolutely.
man...@earthlink.net
so shallow is this summary, this newsgroup is infested by.....
suggest u spend more time learning threads in programming languages than in petty
newsgroups; such an activity may feed u in a place like this.....
quitz
Srinivasd
coherent. So fold your phony crap and write about something RMIC/NG readership
can relate.