Help! Info on Clitoridectomies!
Rinn
polite to a guest last night who didn't deserve it. The conversation got
around to religions and I opined that Islam is a cool religion, and she went
batty about clitoridectomies. I tried to explain that I thought this didn't
have anything to do with Islam, but was a holdover from pagan times in
certain areas. Is this true? My perception is that the practice occurs
mainly in Africa. Is that true? Can anyone quote me any hadith on the
practice? Come on, I am defending your faith! :)
Aloha,
Rinn
Rinn
Jochen Katz
"Rinn" <cat...@aloha.net> writes:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/041.sat.html#041.5251 states:
Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 41, Number 5251:
Narrated Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah:
A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina.
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said to her:
Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman
and more desirable for a husband.
The topic is discussed in some detail at this link:
http://www.light-of-life.com/eng/reveal/r5405et7.htm#p123
and further links can be found at
http://answering-islam.org/Women/inislam.html
I hope this helps.
Jochen Katz
Fariduddien Rice
> Help, please. I need some information as soon as possible. I was being
> polite to a guest last night who didn't deserve it. The conversation got
> around to religions and I opined that Islam is a cool religion, and she went
> batty about clitoridectomies. I tried to explain that I thought this didn't
> have anything to do with Islam, but was a holdover from pagan times in
> certain areas. Is this true? My perception is that the practice occurs
> mainly in Africa. Is that true? Can anyone quote me any hadith on the
> practice? Come on, I am defending your faith! :)
Yes, you are correct. Unfortunately, misperceptions about
clitodirectomy are sometimes used to justify prejudice and
violence against Muslims. Sometimes others with an hidden
agenda (such as some Christian missionaries) seek to perpetuate
this myth in order to try to put down Islam, and their actions
tend to result in increased prejudice and violence against
Muslims in the West. (This violence does happen, such as the
recent genocide of Muslims in Bosnia, and the repeat of this that
is now happening in Kosovo, much of which was "justified" by
the Serbs due to anti-Muslim prejudices.)
A good (and neutral) web page on the topic of clitodirectomy
can be found at
http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_cirm.htm
Here, it is explained that the primary countries where
this is practiced are in Africa, countries such as Egypt
and Ethiopia. In the countries where it is practiced,
it is also practiced by Christians and Jews. For example,
in Ethiopia, clitodirectomy is practiced by both Ethiopian
Christians and Ethiopian Jews.
Clitodirectomy (i.e. removal of the clitoris) is practically
unknown outside of a few African countries.
It is not part of Islam, in fact, it could be said to be
against Islam, since Islam in general prohibits bodily
mutilation. This practice of clitodirectomy in those
countries is due to cultural practices, and not religious
ones.
Peace,
__________________________________________________________________________
Fariduddien Rice Email : dien @ rice.net (remove the spaces)
http://www.haqq.com.au/~salam/
__________________________________________________________________________
Fariduddien Rice
> http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/041.sat.html#041.5251 states:
>
> Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 41, Number 5251:
>
> Narrated Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah:
>
> A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina.
> The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said to her:
> Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman
> and more desirable for a husband.
What is considered to be the authenticity of this hadith?
Abu Dawud's collection contains both good and doubtful
hadiths. If the hadith's authenticity is doubtful, then
it is of little relevance (since most Muslims would not
accept it anyhow).
Also, this does not seem to be clitodirectomy, which means
removal of the clitoris, and finally, the Prophet (peace
and blessings of Allah be with him) is advising to
at least *restrict* it.
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be with him)
did not perform this practice on his daughters, nor did his
Companions perform it on their daughters. Therefore,
this practice is not a part of Islamic teachings.
If the hadith is authentic, it shows a *restriction*,
however, the best practice is that of the Prophet
(peace and blessings of Allah be with him), who did not
practice this at all. The vast majority of Muslims in
the world also follow the Prophet's examples, and do not
do it.
Unfortunately, widely misunderstood topics such as this
are often used to justify prejudice and violence against
Muslims in the world. It sickens me that Jochen does not
seem to be hesitant in spreading these myths against
Muslims, when Jochen's writings could (if read by certain
people) be used as a justification to abuse, attack, or even
kill Muslims.
Saheem Siddiqi
> The conversation got
> around to religions and I opined that Islam is a cool religion, and she went
> batty about clitoridectomies. I tried to explain that I thought this didn't
> have anything to do with Islam, but was a holdover from pagan times in
> certain areas.
Certainly you made a very valid point. Many non-muslims practice it, and it's
predominately practised in Africa and select parts of the Middle east. Being
>from the East Indian sub-continent, I can tell you it's unheard of there. My
Iranian friends tell me it's also not practised in Iran ( in so much as they're
aware of). It's also not practised in Turkey and the Maghreb countries. The
practice itself is not forbidden (as there is no clear commandment against it
in the Quran and hadith). However I can say unequivocally it is not mandatory
and the majority of Muslims don't practice it.
Indeed, Rinn, you might find the following news clip interesting (taken from
www.feminist.org interesting [dated Feb. 18th, 1998 ]):
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Egyptian Health Minister Defends Female Circumcision Ban
"Egyptian Health Minister Ismail Sallam criticized Moslem fundamentalists for
opposing Egypt's ban on female circumcision. Sallam was routinely interrupted
by Moslem extremists condemning the ban during a Cairo Book Fair. Sallam
replied, `Growing a beard doesn't give you the right to issue religious
decrees. It's the mufti's prerogative and he said that female circumcision is
not a religious duty .... We must protect poor and peasant girls because we
know that the wealthy, officials, and senior clerics don?t circumcise their
own,' said Sallam.
Egypt's State Council ordered in December that a ban on female circumcision
would stand. The court ruled that, henceforth, it is illegal for anyone to
carry out circumcision operations, even if the girl or her parents agree to it.
Offenders face up to three years in prison.
During female circumcision part or all of the labia and clitoris are amputated
to remove a woman's sexual desire.
More than 90 percent of Egyptian girls are circumcised around the ages of five
or six. Around 70 percent of the operations are performed in the home in filthy
conditions, sometimes resulting in death from bleeding or infection. "
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So as we can see, the Mufti of Egypt is supportive of the Ban despite the cries
of the populous who somehow see it as a pious act.
You can find a better discussion at:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_cirm.htm
I'll post this article if you are not web capable :)
It reminds me (somewhat) of a conversation I had with a Turkish friend who
insisted Muslims were to be circumcised at puberty (ouch!). Apparently that's
the custom in Turkey, and is enforced by the religious establishment. Those
who say that Islam has not been attenuated by local customs and culture are
niave.
> Is this true? My perception is that the practice occurs
> mainly in Africa. Is that true? Can anyone quote me any hadith on the
> practice?
I'll try and look for the Hadith. As far as I can remember the Hadith don't
forbid the practice. As a matter of fact, some insist that it is allowed,
since the Prophet(SAW) had allowed it. However, it does not make the practice
mandatory, as I've stated above. The majority of Muslims don't practice it,
and have no interest in practising it.
Regards,
Saheem.
Jochen Katz
Fariduddien Rice writes:
} > Help, please. I need some information as soon as possible. I was being
} > polite to a guest last night who didn't deserve it. The conversation got
} > around to religions and I opined that Islam is a cool religion, and she went
} > batty about clitoridectomies. I tried to explain that I thought this didn't
} > have anything to do with Islam, but was a holdover from pagan times in
} > certain areas. Is this true? My perception is that the practice occurs
} > mainly in Africa. Is that true? Can anyone quote me any hadith on the
} > practice? Come on, I am defending your faith! :)
}
} Yes, you are correct. Unfortunately, misperceptions about
} clitodirectomy are sometimes used to justify prejudice and
} violence against Muslims.
I never seen it be used that way.
} Sometimes others with an hidden
} agenda (such as some Christian missionaries) seek to perpetuate
} this myth in order to try to put down Islam, and their actions
} tend to result in increased prejudice and violence against
} Muslims in the West.
I have never seen it done this way, but then, I do not know everything
that is going on.
} (This violence does happen, such as the
} recent genocide of Muslims in Bosnia, and the repeat of this that
} is now happening in Kosovo, much of which was "justified" by
} the Serbs due to anti-Muslim prejudices.)
Violence against Muslims sometimes happens, including violence
committed by so-called Christians. However, this above is quite
a strawman. The Muslims in Bosnia to my knowledge do not practice
female genital mutilation and I have NEVER heard Serbs use this
argument in their anti-Muslim propaganda.
You seem to claim that THIS issue is leading to violence against
Muslims in Bosnia. THAT is most certainly ridiculous.
} A good (and neutral) web page on the topic of clitodirectomy
} can be found at
}
} http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_cirm.htm
Thank you for this link, I agree it is relatively fair.
I have added it to my links collection on the issue at
http://answering-islam.org/Women/inislam.html
} Here, it is explained that the primary countries where
} this is practiced are in Africa, countries such as Egypt
} and Ethiopia. In the countries where it is practiced,
} it is also practiced by Christians and Jews. For example,
} in Ethiopia, clitodirectomy is practiced by both Ethiopian
} Christians and Ethiopian Jews.
I agree. It sadly is also practiced by the Copts in Egypt.
It is a tradition that goes back to the Pharaonic times.
} It is not part of Islam, in fact, it could be said to be
} against Islam, since Islam in general prohibits bodily
} mutilation. This practice of clitodirectomy in those
} countries is due to cultural practices, and not religious
} ones.
Are you giving your own fatwas here?
In fact, when the Egyptian government made a law forbidding
female genital mutilation about a year or two ago, the Muslims
made a HUGE noise about it and Al-Azhar protested against
this law and unmistakenly declared this an Islamic practice.
Al-Azhar is as you know the leading Muslim university and
theological authority. Not in the same way binding as the
decisions of the Pope/Vatican for the Catholic church, but
fatwas from Al-Azhar are certainly not unimportant and I
doubt they will be impressed when Dien Rice declares this
against Islam when they stand up over this issue against
the government of Egypt.
I am not completely sure whether the government was forced
to withdraw the law or if it is still in force, because I
have not followed this issue very closely.
In article <79gd7t$qst$1...@waltz.rahul.net>, Fariduddien Rice
writes a second time on the same day responding to me:
} > http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/041.sat.html#041.5251 states:
} >
} > Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 41, Number 5251:
} >
} > Narrated Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah:
} >
} > A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina.
} > The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said to her:
} > Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman
} > and more desirable for a husband.
} What is considered to be the authenticity of this hadith?
I am no expert. Abu Dawud is the third most authoritative
collection of hadiths for the Sunni Muslims.
} Abu Dawud's collection contains both good and doubtful
} hadiths. If the hadith's authenticity is doubtful, then
} it is of little relevance (since most Muslims would not
} accept it anyhow).
And if not? Maybe you want to investigate on what basis
the Al-Azhar Sheikhs/Ulama have given their fatwas I have
mentioned above?
} Also, this does not seem to be clitodirectomy, which means
} removal of the clitoris, and finally, the Prophet (peace
} and blessings of Allah be with him) is advising to
} at least *restrict* it.
That is rather difficult to decide. The clitoris is
"little". The big mutilation (measuring how much is cut
of) is the removal of the labia. However, I am not an
expert on this issue. I only answered to the request
whether there are hadiths on this issue. I quoted that
hadith. All else is not my expertise.
} Unfortunately, widely misunderstood topics such as this
} are often used to justify prejudice and violence against
} Muslims in the world.
Don't mix apples and oranges. I have never seen this used
to justify violence against Muslims.
} It sickens me that Jochen does not
} seem to be hesitant in spreading these myths against
} Muslims, when Jochen's writings could (if read by certain
} people) be used as a justification to abuse, attack, or even
} kill Muslims.
Don't go overboard. Your response is highly emotional.
The question for reference was asked and I gave a reference.
I did not call for prejudice or violence in any way nor does
any of the links to web pages I have given do so.
If you want to do something positive, join a group that
works to eradicate female genital mutilation anywhere it
is practiced, by Muslims or non-Muslims. Don't be like
CAIR who make a huge noise in the US whenever they feel
offended, even though the reason for the statements made
and which they find so offensive are mostly based on
factual reality in large parts of the Muslim world whether
CAIR considers that authentic Islam or not.
I don't ever see them campaign against the violence
and abuses done by Muslims, only against people who
point out those realities.
Anyway, I have not spread myths. I have pointed to the
MUSLIM sources which state these things. And in particular
the author of the book which contains the chapter on
circumcision at located
http://www.light-of-life.com/eng/reveal/r5405et7.htm#p123
has studied fiqh before he became a Christian. His book
on women in Islam is one of the best documented and fair
I have ever seen.
Jochen Katz
Khalid M. Baheyeldin
> In article <79e23i$5dn$1...@waltz.rahul.net>,
> "Rinn" <cat...@aloha.net> writes:
<snip>
> } polite to a guest last night who didn't deserve it. The conversation got
> } around to religions and I opined that Islam is a cool religion, and she went
> } batty about clitoridectomies. I tried to explain that I thought this didn't
> } have anything to do with Islam, but was a holdover from pagan times in
> } certain areas. Is this true? My perception is that the practice occurs
> } mainly in Africa. Is that true? Can anyone quote me any hadith on the
> } practice? Come on, I am defending your faith! :)
> http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/041.sat.html#041.5251 states:
A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet
(peace_be_upon_him) said to her: Do not cut severely as that
is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.
h in Sunan of Abu Dawood is not authentic (i.e. weak). In the original
Arabic version of the Sunan, Abu Dawood HIMSELF (the compiler of the
book) stated "HATHA HADITHUN DA3EEF", i.e. this is a week Hadith.
[Note to MSA people: why don't you work on translating the authors
comments as well as the text of the hadiths themselves? This will
prevent misunderstanding or deliberate misuse]
Even if we assume that it is authentic, it only indicates that the
prophet commented on a custom that was practiced by some of his
contemporaries. He did not order that this is to be done.
You could have quoted the other Hadith in the Musnad by Ahmed Ibn
Hanbal, where Shaddad Ibn Aws reports that the prophet said:
"Cicumcision is a sunnah for Men, MAKRUMAH for women"
MAKRUMAH can be translated as "noble deed" or "honorable", this excludes
Obligatory, (FARDH or WAJIB).
In all cases, this hadith is also non authentic (i.e. weak), as it has
been listed in the book "SILSILAT AL A7ADITH AL DA3IFAH" (The series
on un-authentic (weak) Hadiths) By Al Albani.
So, there is nothing in Quran about it, the 2 hadiths alleged to the
prophet are not authentically proven.
Even if they are proven, they do not constitute it is an obligation (not
mandated), but rather a discretionary act.
This leaves it as a matter of cultural practice. Even if some scholars
have mentioned it in some books, it is mainly cultural. Sources of
Islam are only Quran, Sunnah (authentic hadith of the prophet),
IJMA3 (consensus of all Muslims).
So, Mr. Jochen Katz, you have no case regarding Islam mandating this
matter.
[OK, religous opinion over, now for a non-religuous aspect of
things]
Now, I am Egyptian, and although it is practiced by SOME in Egypt,
it is mainly parts of rural areas, or people having strong rural ties.
I am from a family with rural ancestry, but no family member I know of,
nor my wife's (also with rural ancestry) family.
Note that all what I described is about clitoridectomy only.
In some parts of the Africa, it is not only a Clitoridectomy, but also
sewing together of the Labia Majora, leaving only a tiny hole for
urination. I do not know if this is part of chastity or what, but this
makes the wedding night a wedding nightmare.
In other parts of Africa, and according to some, parts of Egypt, the
Labia Majora are excised (removed) in the process, causing frequent
infections of the genito-urinary organs.
As much as I don't like the above practices, they have to be judged
by the eyes of the society that practice it. Maybe a women there will
not object to these things. We should not take the matter out of
the social and cultural context.
<Reference other anti Muslim sites quoted, lest the article be rejected
for too much quoted text. Nice one-sided view, eh?>
> Jochen Katz
--
Khalid M. Baheyeldin
Senior IT Consultant
Remove all the X characters in my e-mail address to reply
Jochen Katz
} So, Mr. Jochen Katz, you have no case regarding Islam mandating this
} matter.
I never made a case of Islam mandating female genital mutilation.
Go back, read my postings again. Nowhere did I say Islam requires
this. I only said it is practiced by Muslims in certain areas and
it is defended as Islamic by some scholars and that there are hadiths
about it. That is what the questioner asked for. That is what I
responded with. Nothing more, nothing less.
Jochen Katz
Paki126893
CAIR serves an important role as a "watchdog" organization.
It is perfectly acceptable to make a noise when one's religion is slandered,
and what's wrong with setting the record straight with the truth? (For
example, consider the recent events with the New Jersey congressman, or the
Paul Harvey commentary)
As it is, most Americans are already completely ignorant about what Islam is.
No I haven't read every single CAIR news release, but I have seen many that
present a legitimate gripe about an issue.
Obviously, as a man who has no interest in preserving and spreading Islam, Mr.
Katz wouldn't understand -- perhaps he'd rather that Muslims just keep their
mouths shut while misleading words are spread about?
Salaam,
Omar
>Subject: Re: Help! Info on Clitoridectomies!
>From: Jochen Katz
>(snip)
>is practiced, by Muslims or non-Muslims. Don't be like
>CAIR who make a huge noise in the US whenever they feel
>offended, even though the reason for the statements made
>and which they find so offensive are mostly based on
>factual reality in large parts of the Muslim world whether
>CAIR considers that authentic Islam or not.
>(snip)
Asad Khan
Khalid Baheyeldin
Jochen Katz <jk...@math.gatech.edu> wrote:
> I never made a case of Islam mandating female genital mutilation.
Thank you for spelling this out clearly. It may have been
ambiguous in your original post.
> Go back, read my postings again. Nowhere did I say Islam requires
> this. I only said it is practiced by Muslims in certain areas and
> it is defended as Islamic by some scholars and that there are hadiths
> about it. That is what the questioner asked for. That is what I
> responded with. Nothing more, nothing less.
You did not research whether the hadith quoted is authentic or
not. I had to do that in my reply.
I have also preempted the issue and gave you another hadith on
the matter which is not authentic as well.
I hope that you always refer to these hadiths as not authentic
in the future, as well as in your web sites. Maybe better yet,
provide a link to my article in DejaNews to offer an alternate
prespective from a Muslim.
--
Khalid Baheyeldin
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Zaharuddin Fikri
wrote:
>I never made a case of Islam mandating female genital mutilation.
Jochen is correct, and there is no argument here.
It is only that, IMO, some words have been used without regard
for what they mean, or they have been interchanged at some
points, thereby creating confusion in people's minds.
For eg., does anyone know what Rinn, the original poster had in
mind when she started this thread? We know she asked about
clitoridectomy.
For a start, let us see the definition of clitoridectomy:
"consists of the removal of the entire clitoris, usually together
with the adjacent parts of the labia minor (small lips) and
sometimes all of the external genitalia, except parts of the
labia majora (large lips). Some operators make additional cuts to
enlarge the opening of the vagina as this is believed to make
childbirth easier. [Not true.]"
Was this what she was thinking of to ask?
But bearing this definition in mind, let us look at the hadith
Jochen quoted:
> Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 41, Number 5251:
>
> Narrated Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah:
>
> A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina.
> The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said to her:
> Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman
> and more desirable for a husband.
So to the question by the original poster about any hadith on the
practice (of clitoridectomy), Jochen came up with a hadith on
female circumcision, which as I understand it are two different
operations.
This further adds to my contention that Jochen is 101% correct
when he wrote, "I never made a case of Islam mandating female
genital mutilation."
>...I only said it is practiced by Muslims in certain areas and
>it is defended as Islamic by some scholars and that there are hadiths
>about it. That is what the questioner asked for. That is what I
>responded with. Nothing more, nothing less.
Yes, clitoridectomy is undeniably practiced by Muslims in some
parts of the world, and it has been defended by some scholars at
times (although we need to have proof of that "scholarship"), but
as for the third point....
Unfortunately, the hadith you quoted - perhaps unknowingly - was
not only a weak hadith (which cannot and is not used for any
legal purpose in Islam because it has no legal authority), but
most certainly it does not give a full or rounded picture of the
situation; an example of a rounded response, please refer to
Khalid B's post, Msg Id: <79hfiv$ifn$1...@waltz.rahul.net>.
It also bears repeating that there is absolutely no indication in
the hadith that there was an Islamic basis for the practice of
clitoridectomy (or even for female circumcision). It is a hadith
which a search engine would throw up when one searches for the
term circumcision in a database. IOW, it is not a hadith a legal
scholar would use to espouse support for or against
clitoridectomy. Nor the means.
And as many brothers already pointed out, if anything, the hadith
was putting a restriction on the practice of female circumcision;
it does not even mention clitoridectomy (see definition, above).
It makes no mention that the woman who performed the operation
was a Muslim, that the people she performed those operations on
were Muslims, nor that she was practicing under instructions from
Allah or the Prophet sal-lallahu a^layhi wa a^la aalihi wassalam,
and nor that it was an instruction / teaching meant for the
Muslims in general.
So the answer to Rinn's question on 4 February 1999, i.e. whether
there was any hadith which supported, or can be a basis for, the
practices of some Muslims who performed clitoridectomies, the
answer has to be a firm "No."
One lesson: Web search engines, used hastily and
indiscriminately, by uninformed people, is an unreliable source
of information to pass judgments or comments on matters involving
syari^ah.
On another topic, a researcher named Mohamed Badawi presented his
findings on the practice of clitoridectomies in Egypt at a recent
symposium, and concluded, "But Egyptian Moslem religious
authorities at the recognized El Azhar University state there is
no requirement for female genital mutilation in the Koran." (Ref:
http://www.nocirc.org/symposia/first/badawi.html)
This seems to fly in the face of Jochen's statement about
scholars from al-azhar, made in Message
<79hfif$id5$1...@waltz.rahul.net>: "In fact, when the Egyptian
government made a law forbidding female genital mutilation about
a year or two ago, the Muslims made a HUGE noise about it and
Al-Azhar protested against this law and unmistakenly declared
this an Islamic practice." If we nit-pick, we may say that"Egyptian
moslem religious authorities" is a different category than
"scholars". But that would be nit-picking.
But the impression has been given by Jochen that a large majority
(?) of the "authorities" at al-azhar protested and claimed it was
an Islamic practice. Now, I have seen many people write here on
sri and said, "No it is not an Islamic practice since
clitoridectomies are not supported by any qur'an or hadith," and
then there is this conclusion / statement by Mohamed Badawi
saying the same thing.... so who am I to believe?
Jochen further says that the scholars from al-azhar have
"unmistakably" defended FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION as an Islamic
practice.
I would appreciate if Jochen could please tell the n.g. how and
where he got this information that some scholars from al-azhar
protested that law against FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION in Egypt,
and the truthfulness of his source? Or whether those people were the
authorities who could be quoted for issuing statements on behalf of
al-azhar? I might have missed it, if / when it was presented on this n.g.
wassalam,
Zaharuddin Fikri
stan...@yahoo.com
associating it with Islam is ridiculous. It is a geographic connection only.
It predates the Prophet's era and life and has been found to exist in ancient
Egypt. Female Circumcision in most forms are for sexual repression of
females and are examples of gender double standards. Male-dominated
societies often seek support by claiming religious backing for forms of
female supression. The strange thing about female genital mutilation and
other historical forms is that it seem to stay around a century or so after
other forms world wide have been eradicated. Using a cultural protection for
female genital mutilation is like saying cannibals is Borneo had a right to
keep making dinner out of enemies. Or Turkish elite making eunuchs out of
male slaves. These others have been almost eradicated. Then, why not FGM?
Samir Chandiwala
>From reading the following postings, I have noticed that a very key point is
the authenticity of the Hadith's used by Mr. Katz.
I feel that many people who haven't had a formal education in Islam, or non
Muslims, will find it very curious that a Muslim will defend a position by
admitting that a Hadith is false. These people probably do not realize the
way in which Hadith were classified and collected.
I think this would be an excellent opportunity to start a truly productive
discussion that will be informative to Muslims as well as non-Muslims. This
discussion could teach us of Usul ul Fiqh (the methodology of creating
laws). I think this is an excellent opportunity for one of us who have
knowledge to share that knowledge with thousands of other Muslims as well as
non-Muslims.
Instead of focusing our attention on division and frivolous arguments, maybe
we can learn something. I would like everyone to think of the time they
have spent participating in this n.g. and then think of what they have
gained. I stopped reading this group about a year ago because of the
endless cycle of useless arguments. I have come back with high hopes, but I
am again disappointed. I think this is the prime opportunity to open a
serious and intellectual discussion of Islamic knowledge. Sending out ayahs
of the Quran and hadith are very good, but without understanding and
discussion the full benefit can not be gained. This n.g. is a great
resource that we have and we have a responsibility to use it to gain and
share Islamic knowledge.
I sincerely request all of those interested in such a discussion to post it
on this group. I would also request one of our Brothers or Sisters who been
blessed with knowledge to teach us and gain the reward.
Assalamu Aleikum,
Samir Chandiwala
Jochen Katz
stan...@yahoo.com writes:
} I do not believe Female Circumcision is an Islamic Religious ritual. Thus
} associating it with Islam is ridiculous.
What makes a ritual Islamic? Many Muslims in North/East Africa
do practice it with the conviction that it is Islamic.
} It is a geographic connection only.
} It predates the Prophet's era and life and has been found to exist in ancient
} Egypt.
Certainly true. Going to Hajj, circambulating the Kaaba, throwing
stones at the devil, and various other Islamic practices also
predate Islam. Predating doesn't make it non-Islamic as such.
Again, I do not claim that "Islam" mandates it ("whose Islam?"
might be the issue), but there are many Muslim leaders in various
countries who ardently defend the practice or at least fight
against legislation that would prohibit it.
Jochen Katz
Bollywood Anwar
> Help, please. I need some information as soon as possible. I was being
> polite to a guest last night who didn't deserve it. The conversation got
> around to religions and I opined that Islam is a cool religion, and she went
> batty about clitoridectomies. I tried to explain that I thought this didn't
> have anything to do with Islam, but was a holdover from pagan times in
> certain areas. Is this true? My perception is that the practice occurs
> mainly in Africa. Is that true? Can anyone quote me any hadith on the
> practice? Come on, I am defending your faith! :)
Hi Rinn. Thanks for taking the time and effort to look into this issue
and get some Muslim responses rather than simply listening to hearsay from
non-Muslims. The fact is that, as you figured out yourself, "female
circumcision" is an African practice that has existed long before Islam
and Christianity. As such, there is no direct connection between Islam
and this practice. The non-Muslims on this board will no doubt dig out
some scholar's opinion that female circumcision is allowed, but the fact
is that the majority of Islamic scholars (including scholars in Egypt, one
of the countries in which female circumcision can be found) have condemned
this practice. Certainly, Islam does not encourage female circumcision.
In fact, the Prophet Muhammad always put a great deal of stress on the
issue of men sexually pleasing their wives. Since we know that the
majority of sexual pleasure for a woman is attained through clitoral
stimulation, we can clearly see why female circumcision can easily be
considered unIslamic.
In short, you are correct in your assessment that the practice of female
circumcision in some Muslim societies in Africa is a practice that
pre-dates Islam. The proof of this is that there are also Christians in
Egypt and other parts of Africa who also engage in this practice. As
such, female circumcision is a practice that is taking place in *spite*
of Islam and not because of it.
Peace,
Jochen Katz
"Khalid M. Baheyeldin" writes:
} > http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/041.sat.html#041.5251 states:
}
} A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet
} (peace_be_upon_him) said to her: Do not cut severely as that
} is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.
}
} h in Sunan of Abu Dawood is not authentic (i.e. weak). In the original
} Arabic version of the Sunan, Abu Dawood HIMSELF (the compiler of the
} book) stated "HATHA HADITHUN DA3EEF", i.e. this is a week Hadith.
But is "weak" and "not authentic" the same? So far I was of the
impression that this is not so. If it were clearly not authentic,
then Abu Dawud would not have included it in his collection, right?
As far as I understand it, "weak" (da'eef) means that it does not
have a good chain of transmitters, that it cannot be "authenticated"
sufficiently, but it doesn't mean it is fabricated. There are other
hadiths of which it is known they are fabricated (not authentic)
but this is a different category from da'eef.
Is my understanding correct, or how do you view this?
By the way, there is one very interesting hadith that is
a favorite with some people, which seems to be without
any isnad, but many people hold it very dear nevertheless:
At http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/scienceofhadith/afor.html#F2 it is stated regarding the saying:
Allah says, "I was a hidden treasure, and I wished to be known,
so I created a creation (mankind), then made Myself known to
them, and they recognised Me."
that:
Ibn Taimiyyah says, "It is not from the words of the Prophet
(may Allah bless him and grant him peace), and there is no
known isnad for it, neither sahih nor da'if"; al-Zarkashi
(d. 794), Ibn Hajar, al-Suyuti and others agreed with him.
Al-Qari says, "But its meaning is correct, deduced from the
statement of Allah, I have not created the Jinn and Mankind,
except to worship Me, i.e. to recognise/know me, as Ibn
'Abbas (may Allah be pleased with them both) has explained."
These statements are mentioned by al-'Ijlouni, who adds,
"This saying occurs often in the words of the Sufis, who have
relied on it and built upon it some of their principles."
I.e. This hadith is a foundational saying of a major branch of Islam
(Sufism) even though it is not even da'eef as the hadith by Abu
Dawud above. So, it seems that "da'eef" does not mean not authentic,
only that the chain of narrators is leaving something to be desired.
} You could have quoted the other Hadith in the Musnad by Ahmed Ibn
} Hanbal, where Shaddad Ibn Aws reports that the prophet said:
}
} "Cicumcision is a sunnah for Men, MAKRUMAH for women"
}
} MAKRUMAH can be translated as "noble deed" or "honorable", this excludes
} Obligatory, (FARDH or WAJIB).
}
} In all cases, this hadith is also non authentic (i.e. weak), as it has
} been listed in the book "SILSILAT AL A7ADITH AL DA3IFAH" (The series
} on un-authentic (weak) Hadiths) By Al Albani.
Again, I suppose that should be translated "non-authenticated"
not "un-authentic", right? The two words have very different
meanings.
} So, there is nothing in Quran about it, the 2 hadiths alleged to the
} prophet are not authentically proven.
This formulation would agree more with my understanding of "da'eef".
} So, Mr. Jochen Katz, you have no case regarding Islam mandating this
} matter.
To this statement I had replied earlier.
In article <79k7qa$d2$1...@waltz.rahul.net>,
Khalid Baheyeldin <kbahe...@my-dejanews.com> writes:
} In article <79iroa$48e$1...@waltz.rahul.net>,
} Jochen Katz <jk...@math.gatech.edu> wrote:
}
} > I never made a case of Islam mandating female genital mutilation.
}
} Thank you for spelling this out clearly. It may have been
} ambiguous in your original post.
}
} > Go back, read my postings again. Nowhere did I say Islam requires
} > this. I only said it is practiced by Muslims in certain areas and
} > it is defended as Islamic by some scholars and that there are hadiths
} > about it. That is what the questioner asked for. That is what I
} > responded with. Nothing more, nothing less.
}
} You did not research whether the hadith quoted is authentic or
} not. I had to do that in my reply.
Thank you for providing the information. No, I cannot do such
research, because I don't have the necessary literature for it.
} I hope that you always refer to these hadiths as not authentic
} in the future, as well as in your web sites. Maybe better yet,
} provide a link to my article in DejaNews to offer an alternate
} prespective from a Muslim.
You will find that I already did so.
I have no need or desire to misrepresent Islam. I do not believe
in Islam, I think there are many things wrong with Islam, but I
desire that my evaluation of Islam is based on accurate information
and I want others who read my site to be properly informed so that
they have a sound basis for their decisions what to believe in.
Thank you again for your contribution.
Jochen Katz
Jochen Katz
I think this will be my last posting on it. It is not
worth it. I only tried to provide the info that I had
to one who asked. Next I knew, I was severely attacked
for it by Dien Rice. So, I had to go into a lengthy
discussion of some of his unwarranted accusations.
But it is time to stop this snowballing dynamics.
In article <79k9mg$109$1...@waltz.rahul.net>,
za...@psynet.net (Zaharuddin Fikri) writes:
} On another topic, a researcher named Mohamed Badawi presented his
} findings on the practice of clitoridectomies in Egypt at a recent
} symposium, and concluded, "But Egyptian Moslem religious
} authorities at the recognized El Azhar University state there is
} no requirement for female genital mutilation in the Koran." (Ref:
} http://www.nocirc.org/symposia/first/badawi.html)
Even though I would agree with the statement, that there is
no requirement for FGM in the Qur'an, since the Qu'ran does
not mention the topic at all (and none of us ever claimed it
did), I really have to ask Mr. Fikri what his understanding
of a quotation is. Where that web page does he find the
sentence given by him in quotation marks? I could not find
it, and in general find it rather serious when reference
fraud is committed.
For example, the ONLY place in that document where "Azhar University"
is mentioned is in the biographical note on the author, a medical
doctor, not a religious scholar, where it states
Mohamed Badawi, M.D., M.P.H., is a graduate of Cairo University,
School of Medicine (1973); a graduate of the University of Michigan,
School of Public Health (1981); a graduate of Al-Azhar University
School of Medicine, Cairo (1985) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
There is no mentioning of religious authorities from Azhar in
all of this article. The word "Moslem" does not appear at all,
etc.
The whole study was about the practice of female genital mutilations
and NOT a study of the Qur'an or Islam. To say that the author
"concluded" this in his studies gives a completely inaccurate
image of the article, apart from the issue that the statement
'quoted' above is nowhere to be found in the article.
} This seems to fly in the face of Jochen's statement about
} scholars from al-azhar,
A non-existent statement won't fly anywhere.
} made in Message
} <79hfif$id5$1...@waltz.rahul.net>: "In fact, when the Egyptian
} government made a law forbidding female genital mutilation about
} a year or two ago, the Muslims made a HUGE noise about it and
} Al-Azhar protested against this law and unmistakenly declared
} this an Islamic practice." If we nit-pick, we may say that"Egyptian
} moslem religious authorities" is a different category than
} "scholars". But that would be nit-picking.
}
} But the impression has been given by Jochen that a large majority
} (?) of the "authorities" at al-azhar protested and claimed it was
} an Islamic practice. Now, I have seen many people write here on
} sri and said, "No it is not an Islamic practice since
} clitoridectomies are not supported by any qur'an or hadith," and
} then there is this conclusion / statement by Mohamed Badawi
} saying the same thing.... so who am I to believe?
Which statement by M. Badawi? I am getting ever more curious
where on earth you found this statement above. Unless your
computer is seeing a different article than mine at the
address provided, ...
} Jochen further says that the scholars from al-azhar have
} "unmistakably" defended FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION as an Islamic
} practice.
}
} I would appreciate if Jochen could please tell the n.g. how and
} where he got this information that some scholars from al-azhar
} protested that law against FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION in Egypt,
} and the truthfulness of his source? Or whether those people were the
} authorities who could be quoted for issuing statements on behalf of
} al-azhar? I might have missed it, if / when it was presented on this n.g.
I think I made it quite clear in my original posting,
that this is what I remember, but I have not followed
this issue in much detail. I don't remember the source.
It was some kind of newspaper article reporting about the
outcry against this law in Egypt by various religious
authorities and I think to remember that Azhar scholars
were part of it.
I might not have chosen my words very carefully. I realize
that "Al-Azhar" is not necessarily speaking with one voice
and might have scholars of differing opinions on various
issues. Maybe only some Azhar related scholars stated this
opinion. Also, didn't mean to give the impression that
"Islamic practice" means something that is mandated, but
that these people protested against this ban of genital
mutilation as "forbidding what the prophet has not forbidden".
However, any protest does indicate that it is important enough
for some segments of religious authorities to let this horrid
practice contintinue whatever the "official" reasoning against
the ban is.
I hope that clarifies my statement.
Jochen Katz
P.S. The author of the article you refered to, seems to
use interchangably the terms "female sexual castration (FSC)"
and "female genital mutilations" (FGM) which are certainly
two very different issues. Those mutilated women are supposed
to still bear children (only their sexual desire is supposed
to be curbed). Castration on the other hand is an operation
performed to make a person infertile as well as remove the
natural desires by removing the hormone producing glands.
This is usually only performed on males. I have never heard
of female castration at all. That is a strange error to make
for somebody supposedly an expert in the field. And he does
so several times in the article.
oving
Jochen Katz heeft geschreven in bericht <79oqur$f0j$1...@bolero.rahul.net>...
>
>It was some kind of newspaper article reporting about the
>outcry against this law in Egypt by various religious
>authorities and I think to remember that Azhar scholars
>were part of it.
Perhaps this link is one of the sources:
http://www.abanet.org/irr/hr/fgm.html
mentioning:
"A notable example is the Sheikh of Al-Azhar (a prominent Islamic university
in Egypt), who publicly proclaimed recently that FGM had a place in the
jurisprudence of Islam.Under pressure from leaders like the Sheikh, the
Egyptian Ministry of Health issued a decree in 1994 which permitted
hospitals in Egypt to perform the procedure for the equivalent of three
dollars. Human rights organizations and Egyptian activists quickly organized
a strong response to the decree, which essentially medicalized and
legitimatized the practice. The Minister ultimately revoked the directive a
year later. But the controversy confirmed the strong presence of FGM in
Islamic communities.
"
The site:
http://www.state.gov/www/global/human_rights/1996_hrp_report/Egypt.html
mentions about Al-Azhar:
"Various ministries are legally authorized to ban or confiscate books and
other works of art, upon obtaining a court order. The Islamic Research
Institute at Al-Azhar University has legal authority to censor, but not to
confiscate, all publications dealing with the Koran and Islamic scriptural
texts. In recent years the Institute has passed judgment on the suitability
of nonreligious books and artistic productions.
"
plus:
"The same year, President Mubarak stated that the Government would not allow
confiscation of books from the market without a court order, a position
supported by the then-Grand Mufti, who is now the Grand Sheik of Al-Azhar. "
The influence and history of Al-Azhar mentioned at
http://www.hrw.org/hrw/worldreport/Mideast-03.htm :
"Scholars at al-Azhar, the state-funded university which has served as an
authoritative center of Sunni Islamic scholarship for 1,000 years, "
Or perhaps Jochen is mentioning or has read parts of the following:
( http://www.healthmatters.org.uk/issues/hm4.htm )
"Egyptian human rights activists are suing the head of the leading Islamic
Institute as part of a campaign against female genital mutilation.
Members of the non-governmental Egyptian Human Rights Organisation (EOHR)
claim that the Grand Imam of the al-Azhar Institute should pay compensation
for moral damage caused by his ruling in October 1994 that ‘circumcision is
a duty for men and women, and if the citizens of a country refrain from
practising it, the Imam should challenge them as if they were ignoring the
call to prayer.’
The EOHR say the compensation should go towards funding their campaign
against female genital mutilation which aims to show ‘the harms of the
operation to both individuals and society and to clarify that this pagan
custom has no connection with Islam’.
The EOHR quote clerics, including the Grand Mufti of Egypt, who say that
nothing in Islam which supports female circumcision and that Mohammed’s
daughters were not circumcised."
Regards,
Oving.
Fariduddien Rice
(i.e. reports of the sayings of the Prophet, peace and blessings
of Allah be with him), which are either weak or even not possible
to check:
[...]
> By the way, there is one very interesting hadith that is
> a favorite with some people, which seems to be without
> any isnad, but many people hold it very dear nevertheless:
>
> At http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/scienceofhadith/afor.html#F2 it is stated regarding the saying:
>
> Allah says, "I was a hidden treasure, and I wished to be known,
> so I created a creation (mankind), then made Myself known to
> them, and they recognised Me."
>
> that:
>
> Ibn Taimiyyah says, "It is not from the words of the Prophet
> (may Allah bless him and grant him peace), and there is no
> known isnad for it, neither sahih nor da'if"; al-Zarkashi
> (d. 794), Ibn Hajar, al-Suyuti and others agreed with him.
> Al-Qari says, "But its meaning is correct, deduced from the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> statement of Allah, I have not created the Jinn and Mankind,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> except to worship Me, i.e. to recognise/know me, as Ibn
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 'Abbas (may Allah be pleased with them both) has explained."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> These statements are mentioned by al-'Ijlouni, who adds,
> "This saying occurs often in the words of the Sufis, who have
> relied on it and built upon it some of their principles."
The reason why the hadith is used, to my understanding, is because
its meaning is already known to be correct. (This is what the
underlined part says, in the comment you quoted from Al-Qari.)
However, such a hadith certainly cannot be used to establish
any religious practices, or elements of fiqh, or of faith.
If, however, it simply restates something which is already known,
according to some scholars anyhow it is okay to use the hadith in
order to encourage praiseworthy religious practices. Since
this hadith primarily states in a different way something which
is already in the Qur'an, according to some scholars it is okay
to refer to it....
It is in this way that, to my understanding, the above hadith
is used when it is quoted.
> I.e. This hadith is a foundational saying of a major branch of Islam
> (Sufism) even though it is not even da'eef as the hadith by Abu
> Dawud above.
I personally would not say it is "a foundational saying of... Sufism"
because there are many on the Sufi path who would probably prefer not
to use or refer to such a saying, because of its weakness. Tasawwuf
(Islamic Sufism) does not rise or fall on that saying at all, and it
is certainly not at its foundation, except to the degree that it is a
reflection of the statement of the Qur'an....
And Allah knows best.
Asad Khan
controversy on such a matter, then ignore it, because we'll ignore you.
Paki126893
>
>What makes a ritual Islamic? Many Muslims in North/East Africa
>do practice it with the conviction that it is Islamic.
Funny, Mr. Katz is going to define Islam for us?! Along his lines of thinking,
for example, many Spaniards engaged in the Inquisition with the conviction that
it was Christian to do so. Did that make the practice really Christian?
I didn't think so.
Salaam,
Omar
fa1234
Asad Khan wrote in message <79tgev$ga6$1...@bolero.rahul.net>...
>... matters of fiqh are a matter for the Muslims only....
And the door is tightly closed to
those who dabble in things they know not.
Wassalam
Zaharuddin Fikri
wrote:
>What makes a ritual Islamic?
What makes a ritual Islamic is that it must have a basis in the
Qur'an.
QED. :-)
>might be the issue), but there are many Muslim leaders in various
>countries who ardently defend the practice or at least fight
>against legislation that would prohibit it.
That is why we must pose one simple question to those people
regarding any un islamic practices: please give us your basis for
doing what you do from the Qur'an, ahadith or practices of the
first generation. It doesn't matter if those people work at
al-azhar or the bakery next door; in Islam, everyone is the same
level when it comes to our deeds before Allah.
The religion is nasihah (advice).
Amongst the fellow believers, we are enjoined -- by the Qur'an,
and by the example and practice of the Prophet sall-allahu
a'layhi wassalam, his Companions r.a. and the first generation of
Muslims -- to give and partake of advice, even if the giver is of
a lower station than us.
wassalam,
Zaharuddin Fikri
P.S. To why FGM is still being practiced -- despite the new
Sheikh of al-azhar speaking out against it -- is due to strong
familial and traditional or cultural pressures in that region.
Thanks to Oving for providing the sources in his earlier message
<79r610$iol$1...@waltz.rahul.net>.
Jochen Katz
In article <7a2af9$20c$1...@bolero.rahul.net>,
za...@psynet.net (Zaharuddin Fikri) writes:
} >What makes a ritual Islamic?
}
} What makes a ritual Islamic is that it must have a basis in the
} Qur'an.
}
} QED. :-)
Really?
What is the Qur'anic basis for male circumcision?
Is it an Islamic ritual?
Also, would you then do the Christians the same favor and
not declare all kinds of unbiblical things "Christian"?
Or does this only hold for Islam, while Christianity can be
accused of all kinds of things as being Christian and bad
even though they have no Biblical basis?
} >might be the issue), but there are many Muslim leaders in various
} >countries who ardently defend the practice or at least fight
} >against legislation that would prohibit it.
}
} That is why we must pose one simple question to those people
} regarding any un islamic practices: please give us your basis for
} doing what you do from the Qur'an, ahadith or practices of the
} first generation.
Ah, at least you are extending the scope or basis for practices
beyond the Qur'an now confirming you were not of the "Qur'an only"
camp.
Jochen Katz
Haroon Khan
Circumcision be it performed on a mail or a female is not
part of Islam. All that is Islam is contained in the Quran ALONE (17:46).
Plus the parts of the genitals that are removed in male and female
circumcision are not defects but infact natural parts of the body. God
created us in the best design (95:4).
Hence mutilating the genitals of males and females is infact flagrently
disbelieving in God's own assertion in 95:4. Once again I must stress that
the Quran is a fully detailed book (6:112-116). He does not run out of words
(18:109).
Therefore this satanic practise much like many others in traditional Islam
has nothing to do with the original teaching is Islam which is the Quran.
Once again in his numerous attacks on Islam I see Jochen Katz attacking
Islam on base of silly rituals which are Quranically unsound rather than
dealing with the Quran itself.
Peace
Haroon
Mohamed H. Aboul-Seoud
> Salam All,
Salam
>
> Circumcision be it performed on a mail or a female is not
> part of Islam. All that is Islam is contained in the Quran ALONE (17:46).
> Plus the parts of the genitals that are removed in male and female
> circumcision are not defects but infact natural parts of the body. God
> created us in the best design (95:4).
I can't agree more with that.
>
>
> Hence mutilating the genitals of males and females is infact flagrently
> disbelieving in God's own assertion in 95:4. Once again I must stress that
> the Quran is a fully detailed book (6:112-116). He does not run out of words
> (18:109).
>
> Therefore this satanic practise much like many others in traditional Islam
> has nothing to do with the original teaching is Islam which is the Quran.
> Once again in his numerous attacks on Islam I see Jochen Katz attacking
> Islam on base of silly rituals which are Quranically unsound rather than
> dealing with the Quran itself.
This is and will always be the case. These books upheld by the "Qur'an is
not enough" sects are full of absurd medieval stories that trigger justified
responses from every person with a little bit of intellect. Unfortunately,
people label Islam as an backward religion based on these Satanic books.
>
> Peace
> Haroon
God bless
Mohamed H. Aboul-Seoud, Ph.D.
Visiting Assistant Professor
Industrial Engineering Department
University of Louisville, KY