RESULT: humanities.philosophy.objectivism moderated passes 362:46
Jani Patokallio
RESULT
moderated group humanities.philosophy.objectivism passes 362:46
There were 362 YES votes and 46 NO votes, for a total of 408 valid votes.
There was 1 abstain and 1 invalid ballot.
For group passage, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid (YES and NO)
votes. There also must be at least 100 more YES votes than NO votes.
There is a five day discussion period after these results are posted. If no
serious allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the moderator of
news.announce.newgroups will create the group shortly thereafter.
Newsgroups line:
humanities.philosophy.objectivism The ideas of Ayn Rand. (Moderated)
The voting period closed at 23:59:59 UTC, 5 Jun 1996.
This vote was conducted by a neutral third party. Questions
about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.
Proponent: Jason Kuznicki <jt...@po.cwru.edu>
Votetaker: Jani Patokallio <jpat...@alpha.hut.fi>
VOTETAKER'S NOTE:
Despite heated discussion and accusations of fraud by both sides, there
was no evidence of any fraud in the voting itself that I could see.
Both sides overdid their campaigning, but the result was remarkably
unanimous and remains so even if the few mildly suspicious (ie. not
a direct reply to the CFV) votes are eliminated. As it is, only the
obvious (accidental) duplicate votes were removed as usual.
RATIONALE: humanities.philosophy.objectivism
Alt.philosophy.objectivism (a.p.o.), a currently existing group for
the discussion of the philosophy created by Ayn Rand and known as
Objectivism, has become nearly useless as a forum for discussion of
philosophy because of extremely high traffic of irrelevant crossposts,
spaming and flaming. Though they have been repeatedly asked to leave,
the perpetrators of these abuses continue to disturb a.p.o.
The problems of a.p.o. are particularly great because Objectivism is
in many respects an unconventional philosophy and thus tends to attract
posters who are extremely hostile to it, including trolls and the
perpetrators of interminable flamewars. These problems can be avoided
by those interested in Objectivism through the creation of a moderated
newsgroup.
Traffic on h.p.o. will be significant; previous proposals and the first
RFD were met with numerous e-mail and posted messages by individuals
who plan to post to the group regularly.
The proposal should in no way be considered an attempt to moderate or
replace a.p.o., whose status will not change with the creation of h.p.o.
The newsgroup's name follows established protocol with regard to
newsgroup creation. Objectivism is a philosophy; philosophy is a part
of the studies commonly called the humanities. Finally, the
humanities.* hierarchy is a legitimate and previously recognized
first-level hierarchy.
CHARTER: humanities.philosophy.objectivism
Humanities.philosophy.objectivism shall exist for the purpose of fur-
thering discussion by Objectivists and those who admire Ayn Rand's
ideas. Those who disagree with these ideas may of course also post to
h.p.o. for the purposes of civilized debate and discussion of Object-
ivism. Any posters who persistently abuse their posting privileges
are subject to revocation of these privileges at the discretion of the
moderator (qv).
Discussion on h.p.o. may consist of attempts to support, elaborate,
apply, question, or refute the tenets of Objectivist philosophy on the
part of participants. For example, discussion on h.p.o. may include
but is in no way limited to the topics of Anarchism in relation to
Objectivism and the dispute between David Kelley and Leonard Peikoff
as it relates to Objectivist philosophy. Posts which request general
information about a particular topic of Objectivist philosophy or on
the availability of resources related to Objectivism are also welcome.
Every effort shall be made by the posters of h.p.o. to compile a thor-
ough text-only FAQ describing the moderation and posting policies of
h.p.o.
Crossposting shall not be permitted, excepting administrative posts
such as further RFDs, CFVs, and the FAQ. With the approval of the
administrator such material may be crossposted to news.announce.new-
groups, news.answers, news.groups, and other groups deemed necessary
by the moderator. Because a philosophy such as Objectivism has ap-
plications in numerous areas of human action, the actors in many of
which are not themselves directly concerned with Objectivism, discus-
sions that are crossposted often become irrelevant to one or the
other of the groups. This has been a major problem with a.p.o. in
the past.
Moderation Policy:
The newsgroup shall be automoderated; the automoderator shall be
overseen by a nonparticipant net administrator.
The automoderator shall automatically reject all articles that fall
into the following categories:
A) Articles that contain more than 80 characters per line;
B) Articles that are crossposted;
C) Encoded binary messages;
D) Messages containing more than 20 lines of text, 80% or
more of which is quoted material;
E) Articles authored by those that the moderator has
expelled from the group (see below).
The submitters of rejected articles shall be sent a copy of the FAQ
to inform them of the reason why their submissions were rejected.
The moderator of h.p.o. shall be Tim Skirvin <tski...@uiuc.edu>.
The alternate moderator of h.p.o. shall be Richard E. Depew
<r...@redpoll.mrfs.oh.us>. The moderators shall not post to
humanities.philosophy.objectivism except as administrative duties
require.
Commercial postings shall not be permitted; repeated posting of a
commercial nature shall be grounds for the banning of the submitter
from humanities.philosophy.objectivism at the discretion of the mod-
erator. The moderator is further authorized to cancel said postings
if and when they appear, forwarding a copy of the FAQ to the poster.
If a FAQ is not yet available, a copy of this charter shall be sent
instead.
Postings commonly acknowledged by the Usenet community to be "spam"
or similar forms of net-abuse shall not be permitted; the moderator
is authorized to cancel all such posts, inform the submitter of his
decision, and, if the abuse persists after an initial warning, ban
the submitter of the posts from the newsgroup.
The moderator may also cancel posts which are offtopic for the group.
For example, humanities.philosophy.objectivism excludes the discus-
sion of Neo-Tech, Zon Power and the publications and activities of
the Neo-Tech Publishing Company. Such material is off-topic for
humanities.philosophy.objectivism and repeated posts of this nature
shall result in the expulsion of the poster. The Automoderator may
also be programmed and reprogrammed as necessary to return the ex-
cluded postings to the sender, attatching a copy of the FAQ for h.p.o.
No specific individuals shall be excluded from h.p.o., save as their
behavior on the forum itself warrants.
The alternate shall succeed the moderator upon retirement. Should
the alternate be unwilling to do so, the moderator may choose an-
other impartial nonparticipant individual to fill his place.
END CHARTER.
MODERATOR INFO: humanities.philosophy.objectivism
Moderator: tski...@uiuc.edu (Tim Skirvin)
Article submission address: tskirv...@math.uiuc.edu
Administrative contact address: tski...@uiuc.edu
END MODERATOR INFO.
humanities.philosophy.objectivism Final Vote Ack
Voted Yes
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
00057...@mcimail.com Rodney Schroeter
00063...@mcimail.com Evan Picoult
10002...@CompuServe.COM Alex LEIBOVICI
10027...@CompuServe.COM Victor Manta
73261...@CompuServe.COM Darlene Price
73742...@CompuServe.COM Greg Greenberg
74734...@CompuServe.COM Darius Cooper
75613...@CompuServe.COM Tedd Potts
aar...@ewl.uky.edu Aaron B. Dossett
ad...@visalia.com Adam Wildavsky
afar...@spdmail.spd.dsccc.com Al Fargnoli
a...@wimsey.com Aristotle Jones
ajoh...@netexpress.net Aaron Johnson.
al...@primenet.com Alan Nitikman
ala...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu Alex Lattin
albe...@ix.netcom.com Albert Carrasco
all...@frontiernet.net Jay Allen
alo...@whale.st.usm.edu Austin George Loomis
ana...@seas.ucla.edu Sanjiv Dhir
and...@microsoft.com Andrew Layman
an...@pagan.net Winston Andy Collier
an...@harlequin.com Andy Latto
apo...@ns.bitstream.net Chuck Freeman
arc...@hsc.fr Vincent Archer
ari...@taronga.com Stephanie da Silva
arro...@hops.cs.jhu.edu Ken Arromdee
AS...@acad2.alaska.edu BARBARA A BAUM
asda...@umich.edu Andrew Seth Dalton
ashi...@hookup.net Ayn Shipley
aud...@ix.netcom.com Lee Behel
aw...@freenet.carleton.ca John Monroe
awc...@psu.edu Alexander Cadman
bah...@hbc.psu.edu Brett Hoffstadt
b...@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu Dov Bai-MSI Visitor
ba...@hookup.net Brad Aisa
ba...@CMU.EDU Bartosz Blacha
baz...@hypermall.com Jawaid Bazyar
bbr...@asu.edu Bill Brown
Bend...@aol.com James G. Bender
ben...@inow.com Freddy Ben-Zeev
ber...@primenet.com George Berger
bet...@microsoft.com Beth Carter
be...@speicher.com Betsy Speicher
birc...@email.njin.net Shag
blac...@apci.net Tom Blackburn
bla...@sprynet.com Blair Schofield
bm...@austin.geoquest.slb.com Bryan Mau
bn...@austin.geoquest.slb.com Bill Ney
bni...@cloud9.net Bruce Nicoll
Bro...@aol.com Victoria Trask
br...@aracnet.com Bruce Baugh
bumg...@jmu.edu Lee S. Bumgarner
bw...@eng.ua.edu Barry Weck
bw...@teleport.com Brad Williams
byo...@netcom.com Brian K. Yoder
b_y...@cc.colorado.edu Brook Young
ca...@freenet.toronto.on.ca Kristen Plummer
cat...@netcom.com Mark Kupferman
cerv...@gate.net Mike Cervantes
cha...@u.washington.edu Lorraine McConaghy
chou...@austin.geoquest.slb.com Chad Houston
ch...@kai.com Chris Huson
chri...@ghgcorp.com Christopher K. Land
chu...@uts.cc.utexas.edu Henry Churchyard
cjsa...@apollo1.uophx.edu Chris Sandvick
CMisc...@aol.com Craig Misciagno.
co...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
c...@climate.asrc.albany.edu Steve Cox
cre...@d0sgi0.fnal.gov Cathy Cretsinger
cru...@ix.netcom.com Brad Wilson/Crucial Software
cs92...@red.ariel.cs.yorku.ca DINO CARUBIA
cshe...@austin.geoquest.slb.com Charlie Shelton
cwa...@ece.utexas.edu Chris Walker
da...@bigdog.chem.ucla.edu Dana Elese Holmes
dan...@vis.inf.ethz.ch Daniel Gerald Kluge
da...@postoffice.ttmc.com Dan Wisehart
DASH...@VTVM1.CC.VT.EDU Shoshana Milgram Knapp
Da...@Weston-CDP.Com Dave Weston, CDP
davi...@microsoft.com David Schach
david...@il.us.swissbank.com David Kloba
dc...@andrew.cmu.edu Douglas B Clayton
d...@panix.com Minister of Truth
dec...@village.ios.com Grace De Cicco
de...@endure.demon.co.uk Richard Brooke
dev...@hclb.demon.co.uk Dave Evans
dga...@globalreach.com Domingo Garcia
dhan...@gate.net Daniel B. Hankins
di...@artsci.wustl.edu D.M. Brickell
di...@merlot.Stanford.EDU Bill Dixon
DKnig...@aol.com Duane L. Knight
DMCK...@UWYO.EDU Daryl McKamey
dmu...@austin.geoquest.slb.com Dawn Mullen
dput...@teleport.com David M. Putzolu
dra...@capitalism.com David Rafner
dr...@ix.netcom.com Jeremy Dombroski
DRU...@ix.netcom.com Daniel Rusanowsky
ds...@cs.jhu.edu David Shaw
d...@ora.com DaviD W. Sanderson
e...@tripnet.se Erik Emilson
eir...@quark.arl.psu.edu Peter Eirich
EJ...@trpo3.tr.unisys.com Eric J. Barinka
ejoh...@netcom.com Eric Johnson
ekr...@netcom.com Erik Kraft
e...@wwa.com Eli Lehrer
end...@cris.com Jason Kuznicki
eri...@microsoft.com Kenneth Eric Vasilik
er...@hypermall.com Erik Kloeppel
e...@gladstone.uoregon.edu Ed Matthews
fa2r...@usc.es Jose Ramon Flores Seijas
FAH...@VM.CC.PURDUE.EDU David Fahrner
fie...@community.net Paul Fiester
fl...@ritz.mordor.com Dale Flick
fo...@global.california.com Michael R. Brown
fran...@microsoft.com Frank Mantek
fri...@grove.ufl.EDU Cameron Michelis
fse...@netaxs.com Frederick Seiler
ga...@ix.netcom.com Gabriel R. Stern
gar...@phys.psu.edu Rafael Garcia
ga...@hpdmlfn.boi.hp.com Gary Thomas
george...@jonkoping.mail.telia.com George Barota
geo...@admin.dce.utah.edu George Plautz
g...@micron.net Greg Perkins
ggl...@hookup.net Gerry Glynn
gid...@microsoft.com Gideon Schaller
GL...@PSUVM.PSU.EDU Greg Fisher
gmid...@email.gc.cuny.edu gilbert midonnet
gmor...@prolog.net George Morrone
GOTT...@TSCVM.TRENTON.EDU Allan Gotthelf
gre...@primenet.com Gideon Reich
gri...@warp.msoe.edu Ed Griggs
Gsa...@aol.com Gautam Sarup
gt1...@prism.gatech.edu Josh LeVasseur
gt2...@prism.gatech.edu Timothy Ronald Volk
gt5...@prism.gatech.edu Scott Lange
gt6...@prism.gatech.edu Joshua Bardwell
gy...@cd.chalmers.se Peter Gustafson
habe...@gold.tc.umn.edu Jeffrey M Haber
hay...@ukraine.corp.mot.com Tom Hayosh
h...@oden.se H.C.LEGERHEIM
hdg...@psu.edu Hans D. Gougar
Henrik....@tripnet.se Henrik Anderson
hmu...@ix.netcom.com Harry Mullin
hsi...@crl.com Paul S. Hsieh (e-mail: <hsi...@crl.com>>
HSOL...@aol.com Henry Solomon
ibms...@oknet.com David PC Wollmann
ijac...@chiark.chu.cam.ac.uk Ian Jackson
iri...@infersys.com Josh Smith
ist...@microsoft.com Istvan Cseri
jad...@pe-netsystems.com Jon Adams
jal...@ICSI.Net John Alway
jason_...@il.us.swissbank.com Jason Beaver
JayB...@aol.com Jay Batman
ja...@mail.netime.com Jasmine St. John
jbe...@cris.com Jodi Berls
jb...@gte.com Jeff "Spike" Flaster
JBSi...@aol.com Joseph Singer
jdo...@voicenet.com James D Ousey
Jeane...@aol.com Jean Perry
j...@poisson.com Jason Durbin
jel...@netexpress.net John Elder
Jenniffe...@ACADEMIC-AFFAIRS.ucsd.edu Jenniffer Woodson
Jens.No...@abc.se Jens Norrgrann
je...@mailbox.calypso.net Jens Larsson
jggo...@Oakland.edu Jeff Goslin
jhe...@austin.geoquest.slb.com John Hester
ji...@walrus.com Jimmy Pena
jko...@erols.com James H. Koontz
j...@mo.net James L. Elswick
JMAf...@aol.com JMAflower
jme...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca Jason Medwid
jmer...@netcom.com Jeffrey D. Merrick
jng...@vaxxine.com J. G.
jo...@andrew.cmu.edu Jon David Orris
joa...@tripnet.se Joakim Hasselblad
John_...@adoc.xerox.com John Yokela
j...@netdepot.com Jon Gordon
Jon_Jurik/CRC...@nmail.crcnyc.com Jon Jurik/CRC
J...@hep.anl.gov John Power
j...@hammer.msfc.nasa.gov J. Porter Clark
JPink...@aol.com Jayson M Pinkerman
j...@athens.engr.sgi.com John McCaskey
jro...@chem.ucla.edu Jonathan Rodda
j...@poe.acc.virginia.edu Boris Starosta
jrta...@MailBox.Syr.Edu Jack Tallent
js...@cyberstore.ca
JTaub...@aol.com Jay Taub
ju...@goodnet.com Judy Sawyer
justi...@mdn.net Kendall Justiniano
jwa...@mars.mcs.com Jimmy Wales
jwb...@auburn.campus.mci.net John W. Bales
jwhe...@austin.geoquest.slb.com Joanne Wheeler
kal...@emunix.emich.edu Gerald Allen Kalafut
kam...@tlg.net Scot Kamins
ka...@rigel.econ.uga.edu Kate Wrightson
keg...@aol.com Barbara Chisholm
kha...@netcom.com Kyle Haight
k...@shell.portal.com Kim DeVaughn
kirsh...@hplms26.hpl.hp.com Evan Kirshenbaum
kl...@Oakland.edu klos
kma...@public.srce.hr Kazimir Majorinc
kmye...@aristotle.csd.sgi.com Kurt Yeager
kraucun...@po.gis.prc.com Kraucunas Nina
Krie...@aol.com John Krieger
krsw...@ix.netcom.com Kimberly R. Sweidy
L5H...@fek.su.se Tobias Eriksson
la...@yield.ENET.dec.com Anne Moroney Ladd x6303 HLO2-3/L12,N10 8CMOSLD 20-
laj...@microsoft.com Lajos Frank
la...@bayes.wustl.edu Larry Bretthorst, Ph.D.
las...@microsoft.com Laszlo Gaal
l...@zk3.dec.com Larry Smith
le...@accessone.com Michael Leary
lgri...@qnet.com Lionell Griffith
lib...@eskimo.com Michael A. Justice
Lind...@msn.com Linda Mann
lin...@ilink.net Linden Doerr
l...@pobox.com Lisa K. Holsberg
lmda...@acs.ucalgary.ca Lina Da Silva
lsa...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Lawrence M. Sanger
lyc...@tripnet.se Jerry Nilson
ma...@munin.dc.hks.se Christian Wernstedt
mad...@nsu.acast.nova.edu Peggy Madison
MADM...@aol.com Art Furtzaig
Magnus...@di.epfl.ch Magnus Kempe
marc...@medcor.mcgill.ca Richard Marcellus
Mark.A...@cdc.com Mark A. Peters
mar...@flash.net George Marklin
mar...@magellan.Colorado.EDU James Marks
mar...@plaza.ds.adp.com Martin Golding
MAR...@TEN-NASH.TEN.K12.TN.US Glenn Martin
mat...@MIT.EDU Michael Titko
ma...@tsoft.net Matt Zwolinski
m...@agar.oche.de Marcus Breiing
MBWa...@aol.com Mark B. Wallace
MCene...@aol.com Marc Cenedella
mcna...@itlabs.umn.edu RONALD S MCNABB
me...@u.washington.edu A. Mein
mesc...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca Mark Scannell
mgil...@halcyon.com Michael Gillman
Michael_...@qmlink.draper.com P. Michael Hutchins
Mis...@aol.com Brian Lounsberry
m...@oms.com Mark J. Gardner
mo...@allinux1.alliance.net John Mozena
mpe...@primenet.com Mark A. Peter
m...@xdiv.lanl.gov Mike Clover
msan...@Sigma4.com Martin Sandberg
mst...@insync.net Mark Stapleton
m...@iglou.com Michael Jones
mtki...@MailBox.Syr.Edu Matthew T. Kinney
nbe...@austin.geoquest.slb.com Norman J. Berls
no...@mtgbcs.mt.att.com Norman E. Andrews
npa...@ea.oac.uci.edu Nitin Pandya
nr...@ss-n.com Nicholas Rich
nw...@brainiac.com Harris Kenner
ogh...@acs.ucalgary.ca Onkar Ghate
Olaf....@cwi.nl Olaf Weber
or...@cs.utexas.edu Eric Hollas
p.v...@ix.netcom.com Peter Voss
pan...@uic.edu Pankaj Saxena
pa...@byu.edu Robert Craig Harman
pa...@vix.com Paul A Vixie
p...@io.org Peter Johnson
pdu...@iaw.on.ca Paul Duncan
pe...@psu.edu Paul Moser
pe...@taronga.com Peter da Silva
ph...@iquest.net Philip Oliver
phil...@bright.uoregon.edu Chris Phillips
pm...@crosslink.net Phil Mc
pr...@winternet.com Chuck Prime
psg...@prism.gatech.edu John S. Cobb
pul...@prairienet.org Chris Gurney
r2...@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU Belete Muturo <r2...@vm1.cc.uakron.edu>
ra...@st.rim.or.jp Matt Merges
Rand...@aol.com Randy Grow
ray...@larch.lcs.mit.edu Raymie Stata
rcar...@suba.com Ronald M. Carrier
rcu...@osprey.unf.edu Richard Cunningham
r...@astral.magic.ca Robert D. Stevens
RDW...@aol.com Roger Woehl
rei...@ltec.net Gary Reichlinger
rg...@qb.island.net Ron Good
ri...@bcm.tmc.edu Richard H. Miller
ri...@thunder-ink.com Rick VanNorman
ri...@tolive.vnet.net Rick Pasotto
ri...@tripnet.se Rikard Wollin
rka...@ewald.mbi.ucla.edu Ron Kagan
rmi...@julian.uwo.ca Rick Minto
rmoc...@post.cis.smu.edu Robin Mockett
robw...@skypoint.com Rob Wood
roel.v...@tip.nl Roel Verbunt
ro...@eci1.ucsb.edu Rohit Gupta
r...@sj.unisys.com Ron Hickman
roo...@asturnet.es Rudy Vonk
ro...@netrospect.com Dan F. Rousseau
RPD...@aol.com Paul Drake
r...@advanced.org R. S. Camm
rt...@ibl.bm Rob Tarr
RVe...@aol.com Ray Vernagus
s94...@umslvma.umsl.edu Clay Matthew Hellman
sa...@uta.fi Samu Mielonen
scar...@bcn.net Christopher Scardina
sche...@primenet.com Tom Scheeler
scott...@wcom.com Scott T. Schad, scott...@wcom.com.
SCro...@aol.com Scott Crosby
scru...@inforamp.net Jim May
SDI...@cccpp.com Stephanie Dixon
SDRI...@UBmail.ubalt.edu Sally Driscoll
se...@sonic.net Sean Saulsbury
sge...@interlog.com Dr. Steven A. Gedeon
sh...@astral.magic.ca Greg Shoom
simon....@hkatl.com Simon Patkin
sim...@math.psu.edu Stephen G. Simpson
smu...@chem.ucla.edu Sean Murphy
soda...@CMU.EDU Daniel Morris DeRight
spei...@cco.caltech.edu Stephen Speicher
ST...@Jetson.UH.EDU Meredith L. Patterson
st...@cyberenet.net steph
ste...@srbailey.com Stephen A. Bailey
Steve_H...@qmail4.nba.TRW.COM Steve Hoffmann
steve_w...@ptltd.com steve_williams
SUZP...@aol.com Suzanne Parker
sv...@mcs.net Sven Ericsson
sven...@datasync.com Sven Redsun
swih...@gold.tc.umn.edu Jason Swihart
tab...@iastate.edu Shirley J. Keller
tba...@austin.geoquest.slb.com Terry Baker
tdon...@panix.com Tony Donadio
ted_...@il.us.swissbank.com Ted Horst
tgr...@ix.netcom.com Tom Griffin
th...@io.org Todd Howe
tlwr...@umich.edu Tom Wright
tmi...@metronet.com Thomas M. Miovas, Jr.
toby....@university-college.oxford.ac.uk Toby White
tom.ro...@asu.edu Thomas M. Rothacker
tom...@ee.gatech.edu Thomas L. Tapp
Tony.G...@asu.edu Tony Grundon
torr...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca Kelly Torrance
TPAR...@library.iupui.edu Tym Parsons
t...@hpbs669.boi.hp.com Tim Blair
tra...@algonet.se Martin Lindeskog
tski...@uiuc.edu Tim Skirvin
tyler_g...@il.us.swissbank.com Tyler Gingrich
vat...@primenet.com Toni M. Vatcher
VCC...@prodigy.com Steven J. Holmes
ve...@sn.no Vebjorn Ljosa
VWF...@prodigy.com MR RAPHAEL RENTA
w9...@prairienet.org Zack Widup
wall...@spots.ab.ca jim wallbridge
wa...@scott.net Walt Moffett
web...@primenet.com Steven Weber
west...@theory.caltech.edu Eric Westphal
whem...@Sigma4.com Bill Hembree
wic...@cheddar.physics.wisc.edu Paul Wickre
wie...@lfs.loral.com King W. Wiemann
wi...@albany.net Will Pierce
wj...@mindspring.com Billy Beck
w...@essc.psu.edu Bill Capehart
w...@seagull.rtd.com Jane Woo
w...@xivic.ruhr.de Wolfgang Schelongowski
ww...@nskernel.tandem.com William W. Farley IV
yoi...@gol.com Yoichi Tamura
yu12...@YorkU.CA Steve Smolinski
ZMG...@prodigy.com Dennis Baldwin
Voted No
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
afa...@umich.edu Andrew Fabbro
ALef...@aol.com Jon Gray
bba...@cqi.com William H Bacon Jr
bo...@datasync.com Martin H. Booda
br...@digicash.com
ca...@uni-mb.si Ales Casar
Caudi...@aol.com Jose Fernandez
cl...@columbia.edu Christopher Lodge Stamper
csa...@urc.tue.nl Michiel Wijers
daniel....@infoboard.be Daniel Rybowski
dbri...@students.wisc.edu Doug Riblet
dc...@cftnet.com Dave
de...@teekay.win.net DEFanyo
er...@sundial.sundial.net Eric Juttelstad
fi...@casbah.acns.nwu.edu Carwil James
iord...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Ivan Ordonez
ja...@best.com Jeanne A. E. DeVoto
jbre...@deltanet.com John E. Bredehoft
jep...@nextel.net James E. Prescott
ji...@netcom.com Jim Miller
Jim_...@transarc.com Jim Mann
jo...@handel.jlc.net John Leslie
jon...@th.ph.ed.ac.uk jon ivar skullerud
jqui...@cs1.presby.edu Jeff Quinton
jsr...@interaccess.com J. Stephen Reed
Karl....@loria.fr Karl Tombre
kh...@cs.nyu.edu Hasnain Khan
kwat...@sas.upenn.edu Kirk Wattles
litl...@seanet.com Wendi Dunlap
ma...@po.CWRU.Edu Mike Chary
ml...@andrew.cmu.edu Michael Loomis
ne...@iis.ee.ethz.ch Matthias Neeracher
ol...@viking.mv.com Olav Nieuwejaar
Ollivie...@hsc.fr Ollivier Robert
pa...@catfish.lcs.mit.edu Patrick J. LoPresti
pa...@interlog.com Trevor Tymchuk
rossix!dav...@openlink.one-o.com David Moore
sh...@nyx.net Shrisha Rao
sle...@hammer.oche.de Thomas Bueschgens
sm...@ieng.washington.edu Robert P. Smith
stai...@bga.com Dwight Brown
tasq...@maildrop.srv.ualberta.ca Tom Asquith
tla...@email.univpubs.american.edu Todd C. Lawson
tv...@foo.garply.com T. Cabellero
yor...@ic.net Steven E. Arlow
zdl...@sc.msc.edu David L. Hanson
Abstained
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mcc...@best.com Todd Michel McComb
Votes in error
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
jmo...@micron.com John Mosby
! No vote statement in message
--
Jani Patokallio <jpat...@alpha.hut.fi>
Voting address: <vot...@hut.fi>
Steve Reed
Jani Patokallio <jpat...@alpha.hut.fi> deserves thanks for conducting this
vote, as do all the overworked UVV volunteers.
But he also wrote:
>Both sides overdid their campaigning, but the result was remarkably
>unanimous [...]
Don't insult us, please. One principle of Objectivism is that words have
definite *meanings.* It was not "unanimous." It passed by 89 percent. That's
not unanimous. And a change of 90 votes would have made it fail.
It had to be said, once, and now that it has, in the immortal words of Forrest
Gump, "that's all I have to say about that."
Except that I look forward to running you Shi'ite bastards ragged on h.p.o.m!
§ § § § § § § § § § § § § § § § § § § § §
Steve Reed ... jsr...@interaccess.com
Piece of Sky Consulting, Chicago
Windows assistance and fine type crafting
T.M. Scheeler
In article <jsreed.26...@interaccess.com>, jsr...@interaccess.com (Steve Reed) wrote:
>Jani Patokallio <jpat...@alpha.hut.fi> deserves thanks for conducting this
>vote, as do all the overworked UVV volunteers.
>
>But he also wrote:
>
>>Both sides overdid their campaigning, but the result was remarkably
>>unanimous [...]
>
>Don't insult us, please. One principle of Objectivism is that words have
>definite *meanings.* It was not "unanimous." It passed by 89 percent. That's
He said "remarkably", can't you read dit brain? (as long as this is still APO, I can
throw dung on S&@*$^ bags) :~) (Of course these is so such term as " remarkably
unanimous")
>not unanimous. And a change of 90 votes would have made it fail.
Don't insult us with your poor grasp of math: 90 votes would have been 22% of all
votes cast. Jeez, what a baby: 89% of vote and he whines that it was close. Go cry in
private.
>
>It had to be said, once, and now that it has, in the immortal words of Forrest
>Gump, "that's all I have to say about that."
>
>Except that I look forward to running you Shi'ite bastards ragged on h.p.o.m!
And I look forward to adding your Sheee'ite ass into my killfile before I reply them
with LOTS of notes.
What a dolt!
Shane Castle
In news.groups, T.M. Scheeler<sche...@primenet.com> wrote:
>In article <jsreed.26...@interaccess.com>,
jsr...@interaccess.com (Steve Reed) wrote:
>> And a change of 90 votes would have made it fail.
>Don't insult us with your poor grasp of math: 90 votes would have been
>22% of all votes cast. Jeez, what a baby: 89% of vote and he whines
>that it was close. Go cry in private.
I'm afraid that you are wrong, TM; a change of 90 votes would indeed
have made it fail. For passage, yes votes need to be at least 2/3 of
all votes cast and a change of 90 votes would have made the vote
272:136, making it just less than 2/3. It seems that in this case
Steve's grasp of math is better than yours.
Maybe you should stop and think before cranking up the propane.
--
Shane Castle | "Perfection, then, is finally achieved, not
Boulder County Info Svcs | when there is nothing left to add, but when
Boulder CO USA | there is nothing left to take away."
| - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
John E. Bredehoft
In article <jsreed.26...@interaccess.com>,
Steve Reed <jsr...@interaccess.com> wrote:
>Jani Patokallio <jpat...@alpha.hut.fi> deserves thanks for conducting this
>vote, as do all the overworked UVV volunteers.
>
>But he also wrote:
>
>>Both sides overdid their campaigning, but the result was remarkably
>>unanimous [...]
>
>Don't insult us, please. One principle of Objectivism is that words have
>definite *meanings.* It was not "unanimous." It passed by 89 percent. That's
>
Doesn't this belong on h.p.o? ;)
--
John E. Bredehoft, <mailto:jbre...@deltanet.com>
How a politician answers a direct question:
<http://users.deltanet.com/~jbredeho/ontario19960517.html>
Jani Patokallio
Steve Reed (jsr...@interaccess.com) wrote:
: Don't insult us, please. One principle of Objectivism is that words have
How nice. Unfortunately, I'm not an Objectivist so that doesn't apply, eh? =)
Anyway, that was a minor grammatical oopsie, given that English is not
my mother tongue (and that at last count I have some degree of fluency
in 5 different languages, how about you?) I think that's excusable and hardly
an 'insult'. My basic point should still be obvious: there was no
detectable vote fraud and the Y/N ratio was surprisingly high, given the
torrents of verbal diarrhea this proposal inspired during (and after) its
discussion period.
BTW, somebody else did take the time to upbraid me for that deviation from
denotatory orthodoxy, so as penance I will e-mail myself a message
consisting of the sentence "I will not qualify unqualifiables" 100 times.
Cheers,
your not-very-local but still friendly h.p.o votetaker
--
Jani Patokallio | Elämä ei ole henkeä eikä ainetta, vaan liikettä.
jpat...@alpha.hut.fi | Entropy: http://www.hut.fi/~jpatokal/entropy.html
Toby Bartels
T.M. Scheeler <sche...@primenet.com> wrote:
>Steve Reed <jsr...@interaccess.com> wrote:
>>Jani Patokallio <jpat...@alpha.hut.fi> wrote:
>>>Both sides overdid their campaigning, but the result was remarkably
>>>unanimous.
>>Don't insult us, please. One principle of Objectivism is that words have
>>definite *meanings.* It was not "unanimous." It passed by 89 percent. That's
>>not unanimous. And a change of 90 votes would have made it fail.
>Don't insult us with your poor grasp of math: 90 votes would have been 22% of
>all votes cast.
Which, combined with the 11% already NO, is enough to make the group fail.
>Jeez, what a baby: 89% of vote and he whines that it was close. Go cry in
>private.
Only person I see crying around here is you.
Steve's post was compartively restrained.
-- Toby
to...@ugcs.caltech.edu
jim miller
jpat...@cc.hut.fi (Jani Patokallio) wrote:
>My basic point should still be obvious: there was no
>detectable vote fraud and the Y/N ratio was surprisingly high, given the
>torrents of verbal diarrhea this proposal inspired during (and after) its
>discussion period.
There was very detectable, as it was exposed on the newsgroup, unethical vote
soliciting. It was brought to your attention. You chose not to do anything
about it. I guess old campaigners like Betsy have a certain cunning about
them, knowing how far it is safe to step over the line without incurring
a penalty. I predicted her type of vote soliciting a couple months before
the vote, given the blocs of easy votes ripe for the picking in the Rand
mailing lists, and I warned about it a couple times on a.p.o. We will see
what percentage of the unfamiliar new "Yes" voters now participate on h.p.o.;
what we won't be able to see is how many of them never use a newsreader or
enter into h.p.o to read it.
This discussion period had more "diarrhea" than usual because it was over
the highly debatable, new use of a philosophy group, in the humanities
hierarchy, to offer a censored *philosophy* discussion, complete with the
"philosophy" name, in such a way as to gratify the cultish information-
control impulses of the chief proponents and adherents. Moderation will
almost surely be based on some simple filters for certain philosophical,
competing undesirables, and also on an old boy system of those with the
moderator's ear. There will be no cross-posting allowed with the larger
philosophical and Usenet communities; they prefer it this way. The chief
proponents continually tripped over themselves and over each other when the
implications and details of their moderation policies were examined. The
nature of the philosophy under discussion in this new group, combined with
its long history of internal bickering and fractionalism, make this group
ripe for everything that can go wrong with Usenet moderation, to indeed
go wrong. It is very dismaying for philosophy that this group will be
created and given official Usenet sanction. Rand has a tendency to take
a grip on people and hold them for a good long while, if they are willing,
and it's usually either increasing philosophical exposure and sophistication,
or more life experience, that helps break the spell. Usenet has just taken
a step to make an atmosphere where critical examination of Rand is a little
less tempting.
-Jim
T.M. Scheeler
In article <scrutnzr-080...@ts50-05.tor.istar.ca>, scru...@inforamp.net
(Jim May) wrote:
...in such a way as to shield killfile member Reed...
><< killfile lifted, for a peek to see if....
>
>....yes! >>
>
>> Jani Patokallio <jpat...@alpha.hut.fi> deserves thanks for conducting this
>> vote, as do all the overworked UVV volunteers.
>>
>>
>> >Both sides overdid their campaigning, but the result was remarkably
>>
>> Don't insult us, please. One principle of Objectivism is that words have
>> definite *meanings.* It was not "unanimous." It passed by 89 percent. That's
>> not unanimous. And a change of 90 votes would have made it fail.
Hey, Steve, I suggest you take that up with Jani, who was only the vote taker. They
are his comments. BTW, I sure like your size 9 1/2D dentures.
>Razzzzzzzzzzzzberry!
>
Snicker...snort. Pwwwwwwwwwwtttthhhhhhhhhttttt.
>Jim May
>Your Friendly Neighborhood Objectivist
>"...where's that damn moving van?!?!?"
>
><< killfile shields restored >>
"Albuquerque Center, Cessna 267JF, 25 DME from Winslow VOR on V291. We are
experiencing severe turbulence at one one thousand feet. Can you assign a new
altitude outside of Reed's range?"
Tom
"We cannot fight against collectivism, unless we fight against its moral
base: altruism. We cannot fight against altruism, unless we fight against
its epistemological base: irrationalism. We cannot fight *against*
anything, unless we fight *for* something--and what we must fight for is the
supremacy of reason, and a view of man as a rational being."
Ayn Rand - "Philosophy: Who Needs It":
Jim May
<< killfile lifted, for a peek to see if....
...yes! >>
In article <jsreed.26...@interaccess.com>, jsr...@interaccess.com
(Steve Reed) wrote:
> Jani Patokallio <jpat...@alpha.hut.fi> deserves thanks for conducting this
> vote, as do all the overworked UVV volunteers.
>
> But he also wrote:
>
> >Both sides overdid their campaigning, but the result was remarkably
> >unanimous [...]
>
> Don't insult us, please. One principle of Objectivism is that words have
> definite *meanings.* It was not "unanimous." It passed by 89 percent. That's
> not unanimous. And a change of 90 votes would have made it fail.
Would you like some cheese to go with that whine? For someone who was
such a stickler to the procedures of Usenet as a given, this is quite
interesting. And expected. If you live by the sword, you will die by the
sword...
> It had to be said, once, and now that it has, in the immortal words of
Forrest
> Gump, "that's all I have to say about that."
Except...
> Except that I look forward to running you Shi'ite bastards ragged on h.p.o.m!
That assumes that someone deigns to chase you. What for? You have
nothing that the "Shi'ite bastards" would want.
As for me, HPO has passed. There is no need to bother with you any more.
Razzzzzzzzzzzzberry!
Jani Patokallio
jim miller (j...@umcc.umich.edu) wrote:
: jpat...@cc.hut.fi (Jani Patokallio) wrote:
: >My basic point should still be obvious: there was no
: >detectable vote fraud and the Y/N ratio was surprisingly high, given the
: >torrents of verbal diarrhea this proposal inspired during (and after) its
: >discussion period.
:
: There was very detectable, as it was exposed on the newsgroup, unethical vote
: soliciting. It was brought to your attention. You chose not to do anything
: about it. I guess old campaigners like Betsy have a certain cunning about
Excuse me!? First of all, unethical vote soliciting does not count as
vote fraud, and while a number of people came close, the Guidelines were
never violated. Second, I followed the discussion in the relevant groups,
and I promptly sent warnings to people who went too far (including Betsy).
Vote _fraud_ would require distributing altered CFVs, campaigning for votes
in entirely irrelevant places, or sending in fake ballots - and to the best
of my knowledge, none of these took place.
The vote passed by 362:46. That indicates there was little opposition;
just about any group will get 20 NO votes, so there was more than usual
but not much (the average controversial vote gets at least 100 NO). And the
figures also indicate strong support, even if the group had gotten 215
YES votes less it would have passed. Do you have evidence to prove or
even suggest that the majority of YES votes were fraudulent?
: or more life experience, that helps break the spell. Usenet has just taken
: a step to make an atmosphere where critical examination of Rand is a little
: less tempting.
The vote is over. If you want to do something about it, wait 3 months and
bring up an RFD for the removal of h.p.o; given the results of this vote,
I suspect it will go down in flames. However, should you decide to do so,
you can count on me not running the vote.
Cheers,
T.M. Scheeler
In article <4pe7s2$7...@nntp.hut.fi>, jpat...@cc.hut.fi (Jani Patokallio) wrote:
[snip]
>
>The vote is over. If you want to do something about it, wait 3 months and
>bring up an RFD for the removal of h.p.o; given the results of this vote,
>I suspect it will go down in flames. However, should you decide to do so,
>you can count on me not running the vote.
>
>Cheers,
>h.p.o votetaker
>--
>Jani Patokallio | Elämä ei ole henkeä eikä ainetta, vaan liikettä.
>jpat...@alpha.hut.fi | Entropy: http://www.hut.fi/~jpatokal/entropy.html
Thank you for you excellent performance, Jani, and please excuse the ignorance of
those taking "cheap shots". We will see that they are spanked forthwith.
Tom
Brad Aisa
j...@umcc.umich.edu (jim miller) wrote:
> We will see what percentage of the unfamiliar new "Yes" voters now
participate on h.p.o.;
>what we won't be able to see is how many of them never use a newsreader or
>enter into h.p.o to read it.
I personally know of at least 20 people who read apo, but never post. I
frequently get private email in response to one of my posts. Many more
people are likely to read HPO as apo, because it will hopefully have a much
higher s/n ratio, which is the reason Ayn Rand fans cite most when
explaining why they don't read apo.
Mr. Miller's analysis is based on assumptions, not facts.
>This discussion period had more "diarrhea" than usual because it was over
>the highly debatable, new use of a philosophy group, in the humanities
>hierarchy, to offer a censored *philosophy* discussion...
Well, this just demonstrates Mr. Miller's inability to distinguish between
private association and public coercion. A group of people getting together
for a specific purpose is NOT "censorship" or "restriction" of others who
may want to associate for some other purpose. Mr. Miller should learn that
concepts have referents, and reality can't be twisted to fit the content of
his mind. The relationship is: reality is primary, consciousness secondary.
>Moderation will
>almost surely be based on some simple filters for certain philosophical,
>competing undesirables...
NT is not philosophy -- it is a whacked out commercial science-fiction
cult.
>There will be no cross-posting allowed with the larger
>philosophical and Usenet communities; they prefer it this way.
Oh brother. The reasons for this were explained over and over. Mr. Miller
is once again manufacturing bug-eyed paranoic fantasies. The reason for the
no-crossposting is for exactly the reasons stated: maximizing the
signal/noise ratio, and eliminating the cross-post thread-from-hell
problem, which plagues most of Usenet. His charge that the purpose is to
minimize discussion is just laughable. The main reason the proponents of
this newsgroup want it, is precisely to propogandize and discuss Ayn Rand's
ideas to as wide an audience as possible.
>Rand has a tendency to take
>a grip on people and hold them for a good long while, if they are willing,
>and it's usually either increasing philosophical exposure and
sophistication,
>or more life experience, that helps break the spell. Usenet has just
>taken a step to make an atmosphere where critical examination of Rand is a
>little less tempting.
What nonsense. It certainly doesn't seem to apply to any of the now scores
of university professors who are enthusiastic advocates of Rand's ideas,
nor the innumerable people who have taken the time to verify the ideas,
then integrate them into their lives. Once again, Mr. Miller is
manufacturing word-salads, which have no connection to the facts of
reality.
--
Brad Aisa <ba...@tor.hookup.net> http://www.hookup.net/~baisa/
"The highest responsibility of philosophers is to serve as the
guardians and integrators of human knowledge." -- Ayn Rand
T.M. Scheeler
In article <4pemfb$7...@loki.tor.hookup.net>, ba...@tor.hookup.net (Brad Aisa) wrote:
>j...@umcc.umich.edu (jim miller) wrote:
[snip]
>Oh brother. The reasons for this were explained over and over. Mr. Miller
>is once again manufacturing bug-eyed paranoic fantasies. The reason for the
>no-crossposting is for exactly the reasons stated: maximizing the
>signal/noise ratio, and eliminating the cross-post thread-from-hell
>problem, which plagues most of Usenet. His charge that the purpose is to
>minimize discussion is just laughable. The main reason the proponents of
>this newsgroup want it, is precisely to propogandize and discuss Ayn Rand's
>ideas to as wide an audience as possible.
Let me see if I can explain it to Mr. Miller in terms he can understand:
A.P.O. is like a McDonands. It is a so-called "family" type place wher the kids can
go, act up, run sreaming through the aisles, spill stuff over themselves and the
furniture. H.P.O., on the otherhand, is the "adult" place, where adult conduct is
expected. It is like the fancy restauarant. Kids may dine their, but must be very
well behaved and good manners are expected without exception.
Understand now?
Tom
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"We have devolved, not to a democracy, but to a simple republic;
meaning that we send our representatives to the public trough,
to slop it up, rather than going there ourselves."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John E. Bredehoft
In article <4pd8dg$1...@umcc.umcc.umich.edu>,
jim miller <j...@umcc.umich.edu> wrote:
>
>This discussion period had more "diarrhea" than usual because it was over
>the highly debatable, new use of a philosophy group, in the humanities
I agreed with your views.
I voted no.
A large amount of people voted yes.
It's over.
The end.
Brad Aisa
jpat...@cc.hut.fi (Jani Patokallio) wrote:
>The vote is over. If you want to do something about it, wait 3 months and
>bring up an RFD for the removal of h.p.o; given the results of this vote,
>I suspect it will go down in flames. However, should you decide to do so,
>you can count on me not running the vote.
And I presume that this time, the onus is on those campaigning for change
to solicit the required 2/3 majority, and sufficient votes.
This system is not right. I don't mind participating, since the value of a
newsgroup is purely transitory, and based solely on the extant participants
in a given period. But still, I think it would be highly injust if many of
us put in a lot of effort to make HPO a valuable place, that attracts a
readership, and then have that destroyed by a mini-mob in the future.
Imagine if property rights in the physical world had to depend on
continually hoping a little mob wasn't going to band together and vote to
strip you of your property and right to associate.
(...oh, gee, I guess I am describing the mixed economy and almost any
municipal political system today!)
I guess us advocates of individual rights and property rights have our work
cut out for us on the new newsgroup humanities.philosophy.objectivism.
Gary Forbis
Brad Aisa wrote:
> Imagine if property rights in the physical world had to depend on
> continually hoping a little mob wasn't going to band together and vote to
> strip you of your property and right to associate.
>
> (...oh, gee, I guess I am describing the mixed economy and almost any
> municipal political system today!)
At least you are recognizing reality. The world over might makes right and
a mob rules, defining property rights. While things are getting better,
we have a long row to hoe before property rights gain international acceptance
independent of the politics of the country in which the property exists.
I think our positions are not that far apart except for the high
metaphysical esteem with which you hold property rights as opposed
to my pragmatic stance on the matter.
-- gary for...@accessone.com