President Clinton's Arms
EJD
mentioned, in passing, in an article
in Tuesdays "Irish Times" as having a grant.
- Edward
Francois R. Velde
>Interesting to see
>how MacCarthy's support base continues to crumble, the latest high profile
>courtiers to defect being Peter Berresford Ellis and Patrick O'Shea.
<gasp of disbelief>
Patrick M. O'Shea? The Royal Eoaghanacht web-spin-doctor himself?
<click, click>
By Golly, look at
http://www2.smumn.edu/munster/mccm.html
This gives new meaning to the word "loyalty"...
<shudder>
Does this mean that the mass of scholarship collected on the web site of the
"Royal Eoghanacht House" is about to be taken down? What a loss for mankind in
general and Ireland in particular. What a loss for all those counts, barons and
knights!
<click, click>
And over here...
http://www.luminet.net/~tiraha/letters/
Dated Oct. 7, 1999, the lord of Tiraha's apostasy.
--
François Velde
ve...@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
Heraldry Site: http://www.heraldica.org/
Sean J Murphy
Herald Donal Begley. This appears to have been a low key grant, perhaps
because of the then controversy over the spurious Roslea pedigree of
Clinton's maternal Cassidy ancestors. I would imagine that further
particulars of the arms granted to the President would be available from the
Irish Genealogical Office (2 Kildare Street, Dublin 2).
The Clinton grant was in fact the last made by Begley before his unexpected
early retirement in 1995. Begley of course was also the Chief Herald who
recognised Terence MacCarthy as MacCarthy Mór in 1991-92. Interesting to see
how MacCarthy's support base continues to crumble, the latest high profile
courtiers to defect being Peter Berresford Ellis and Patrick O'Shea. What we
are witnessing of course is merely a realignment of forces and not a true
dawning of reason, as 'ordenshunger' remains as strong as ever and is
already finding new outlets. The recent accelerated issue of grants of arms
by the Irish Genealogical Office is a case in point. I would have thought
that the Chief Herald should in fact have suspended such activities pending
identification of the extent to which spurious arms, false pedigrees and
bogus titles have been infilitrated into the records of the Office over the
past 20 years.
Sean Murphy
Centre for Irish Genealogical and Local Studies
http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/chiefs/
*********************************************************
EJD <"ejd2(remove)"@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:37FCD42C...@worldnet.att.net...
Michael F McCartney
for tonight: reread the parable of the prodigal son...
--
Michael Fannin McCartney
Fremont, California
(Please do not use "m...@sns.com" any more - that account is dead)
se...@maclochlainn.freeserve.co.uk
A great shame those letters have disappeared though, some were
hilarious. The semi-hysterical letter from T MacCarthy to the GO, for
instance, insisting that he absolutely refuses to submit to
primogeniture (he was stamping his feet at the time no doubt). Also the
letter from Clan MacCarthy North America inc, addressing the GO as if
it were a performing dog.
But who can forget the doctor (a vet I hope) quoted in a local
newspaper, who believed that if T MacCarthy was not MacCarthy Mor then
the solution was simple, T MacCarthy's brother was!
Sean
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Patrick M. O'Shea
"Sean J Murphy" <seanj...@tinet.ie> wrote:
> The Clinton grant was in fact the last made by Begley before his unexpected
> early retirement in 1995. Begley of course was also the Chief Herald who
> recognised Terence MacCarthy as MacCarthy Mór in 1991-92. Interesting to see
> how MacCarthy's support base continues to crumble, the latest high profile
> courtiers to defect being Peter Berresford Ellis and Patrick O'Shea. What we
> are witnessing of course is merely a realignment of forces and not a true
> dawning of reason, as 'ordenshunger' remains as strong as ever and is
> already finding new outlets. The recent accelerated issue of grants of arms
> by the Irish Genealogical Office is a case in point. I would have thought
> that the Chief Herald should in fact have suspended such activities pending
> identification of the extent to which spurious arms, false pedigrees and
> bogus titles have been infilitrated into the records of the Office over the
> past 20 years.
Dear Mr. Murphy,
Although long silent in this forum, it seems that I cannot avoid having
my name invoked and ridiculed. Therefore, I should wish to make a few
personal statements which are relevant to the MacCarthy Mór matter. When
people of honor have been misled, and make mistakes as a result, they
admit as much. Sadly, some feel compelled to attack and ridicule a man
who has made such an admission. I freely state that I, along with many
others, was duped by Terence McCarthy. Those who have met him know that
he is an educated and charismatic individual, and his ability to mix
historical fact with invention was highly polished. His message was
quite appealing to many, probably because it sought to advance an
alternative to the perceived 'cultural inferiority complex' from which
modern Ireland seems to often suffer.
By painting with the broadest possible brush members of the Niadh Nask
and officials of the Genealogical Office as agents of 'ordenshunger,' you
tip your own hand with respect to republican bias. Just as it is wrong
for Terence McCarthy to have interpolated and invented aspects of the
Niadh Nask, it is equally wrong for you to ignore that Ireland's Gaelic
past is incompatible with the modern mythology of "Gaelic democracy."
The Niadh Nask is described in many sources which predate the activities
(and, in fact, the birth) of Terence McCarthy. Its precise nature and
history must be studied carefully, and the constructs of Terence McCarthy
must be stripped away to reveal historical facts which can be documented
and substantianted. It is clear that military elites existed under Irish
kings, and that the Niadh Nask is mentioned by Keating and others, often
in conjunction with the concept of High Kingship. It is also true that
many honorable people are members of the Niadh Nask, and that the group
has tremendous potential to do good work in support of the legitimate
Irish Chiefs and true scholarship. Obviously, this will be a time of
careful study and consideration of an honorable way forward. Initial
support for this course has been made unofficially by various Chiefs and
other persons, but the future of the NN will clearly be a future without
Terence McCarthy, and without pretensions to be anything other than a
confraternity of persons interested in supporting the remnants of the
Gaelic order, such as they exist today.
We would hope that Irish citizens and persons of Irish descent would be
supportive of our goals, and understanding of the difficulty of the
process which we must now undertake to "rehabilitate" the Niadh Nask, and
to bring it in line with accepted practice, historical fact, and
hopefully under appropriate patronage of Irish Chiefs. There is no
"quick fix," but given the potential of the Niadh Nask, there has been
almost unanimous agreement that its continuation should be supported so
long as the conditions of re-definition and clearly stated mission can be
satisfactorily met. If they cannot, I know of not a single person who
would remain in the organization.
Finally, it may well be true that the present MacCarthy Mór scandal will
bring about the eventual dissolution of the Genealogical Office in its
present form. Perhaps this will be a positive development for both the
remnants of Gaelic Ireland, embodied by the legitimate Chiefs of the
Name, as well as for the Republic. However, I dare say that any such
development will have precious little to do with your 'research' or your
strident rhetoric.
The officers of the Niadh Nask, so I understand (I am not one), will be
making an official statement regarding the Terence McCarthy matter later
today. Although certain individuals will be dancing with glee on the
figurative grave of Terence McCarthy, we hope that the same people will
accept the assertion that the Niadh Nask may yet survive and be of
significant benefit to the Irish Chiefs in the future.
Sincerely,
Patrick M. O'Shea
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
www2.smumn.edu/facpages/~poshea
Francois R. Velde
> Come on, Fancois, let's not shoot the wounded! Your assignment
> for tonight: reread the parable of the prodigal son...
Yes; gloating, however tempting, is unseemly. I do feel that, since Deja News'
archives are replete with the posts of the lord of Tiraha, his change of mind
ought to be duly recorded here. That's done, 'nuff said.
(For those who miss the old version of PMOS' page on the MM, it's still accessible
(for a limited time), in a cached version, at
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:34695508&dq=cache:www2.smumn.edu/munster/mccm.html
Those pictures will be collectors' items soon!)
There is some irony in the fact that the logo "this site support Terence Francis
MacCarthy" on other Terentines' sites (e.g., Len Keane, self-styled Col. Shortt
of the thugs-in-kilt a.k.a. Galloglas) now link directly to O'Shea's recantation.
--
François R. Velde
ve...@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
Heraldica Web Site: http://www.heraldica.org/
seanj...@my-deja.com
his tongue. However, despite renouncing Terence
MacCarthy, he wishes to maintain his constructs,
particularly the Niadh Nask, confirming my point
about realignment of forces as opposed to true
contrition. My own abiding memory of Dr O'Shea's
role in all this is his reply to my protest
against the 'G2 Branch' Galloglas surveillance
threat against myself and others, which was
linked to his Eoghanacht Dynasty site: 'Having
read the statement, I see nothing indicating
intended harassment'. Will there be a counterpart
to the 'G2 Branch' under the New Order?
Sean Murphy
Centre for Irish Genealogical and Local Studies
http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/chiefs/
James Dempster
wrote:
>Dear Mr. Murphy,
>
>Although long silent in this forum, it seems that I cannot avoid having
>my name invoked and ridiculed.
<snip of a long statement>
I must admit that I found Sean Murphy's reply to a question about Bill
Clinton to be totally off the topic of the thread and unwarranted.
What the questioner got out of it, I have no idea - unless he was a
medium term frequenter of this group it cannot have made any sense.
Whilst every cock may crow on his own dunghill - we don't have to like
the sight, smell or sound.
There are plenty of persuasive people in this world who take advantage
of others. For those who have been "taken in" it can be a difficult
process to admit - privately and publically - that they have been
wrong. It is so often so much easier emotionally to go on defending a
position which they know in their hearts to be wrong than to admit
that they were wrong.
Patrick O'Shea has rather bravely come to that decision and done so in
public as well as in private. I for one think that he should not be
held up to ridicule.
I can only hope that out of all this comes a more realistic attitude
to Irish Genealogy - a middle way between the overly romantic view
that excused the excesses of the extreme Macarthy Mor camp and the
genealogy as point-scoring which seems to be practiced by the other
side.
James
James Dempster (jdem...@easynet.co.uk)
You know you've had a good night
when you wake up
and someone's outlining you in chalk.
Guy Stair Sainty
We have differed in the past, in particular over this question,
but I must unhesitatingly express my admiration for your good
faith and obviously good intentions. I am sure that being taken
in by a confidence trickster is always a horrible experience,
especially when one has invested time and money in an enterprise.
To admit that one has made an error is difficult, and I admire
Mr O'Shea for having the courage to have stated his positionso
clearly.
I hope that soon he will give similar consideration to the claims
of the so-called "Order of Saint Stanislas".
I wish that those who have been taken in by false Saint John/Malta
Orders would take action when they discover the truth. If the
purveyors of false tiles and Orders are sued for their deception it will
certainly deter others in the future. Such suits have been successful
in the US federal courts.
Guy Stair Sainty
>Dear Mr. Murphy,
>
>Although long silent in this forum, it seems that I cannot avoid having
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
Guy Stair Sainty
Stair...@msn.com
www.ChivalricOrders.org
Mike Dwyer
Guy Stair Sainty <Guy_m...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> In article <7tl3ra$ot0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Patrick says...
>
> We have differed in the past, in particular over this question,
> but I must unhesitatingly express my admiration for your good
> faith and obviously good intentions. I am sure that being taken
> in by a confidence trickster is always a horrible experience,
> especially when one has invested time and money in an enterprise.
> To admit that one has made an error is difficult, and I admire
> Mr O'Shea for having the courage to have stated his positionso
> clearly.
>
For what little it's worth, I'd also like to say that I also realize
that Terrence MacCarthy was not who he said he was and he has tricked a
great many people. I apologize for any aggravation I may have caused
anyone, especially Mr. Sainty and Mr. Crackroft-Brennan, in our
previous discussion on this matter.
--
J. Michael Dwyer
VIRTUS SOLA NOBILITAS
EJD
Mike Dwyer wrote:
> For what little it's worth, I'd also like to say that I also realize
> that Terrence MacCarthy was not who he said he was and he has tricked a
> great many people. I apologize for any aggravation I may have caused
> anyone, especially Mr. Sainty and Mr. Crackroft-Brennan, in our
> previous discussion on this matter.
> --
> J. Michael Dwyer
> VIRTUS SOLA NOBILITAS
>
Michael,
I would ask you the same question I posed to P. O'Shea: what
was it in the end that finally convinced you that Terence MacCarthy was a
fraud - an accumulation of evidence, or.... ?
- Edward
EJD
Patrick,
This must be a somewhat difficult time for you, given your earlier
committment to Mr MacCarthy. However, it would be of some interest to many of us
to know what it was in the end that finally convinced you that Terence MacCarthy
was a fraud - was it an accumulation of evidence, or.... ?
- Edward
Patrick M. O'Shea
seanj...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Good to see that Patrick O'Shea has again found
> his tongue. However, despite renouncing Terence
> MacCarthy, he wishes to maintain his constructs,
> particularly the Niadh Nask, confirming my point
> about realignment of forces as opposed to true
> contrition. My own abiding memory of Dr O'Shea's
> role in all this is his reply to my protest
> against the 'G2 Branch' Galloglas surveillance
> threat against myself and others, which was
> linked to his Eoghanacht Dynasty site: 'Having
> read the statement, I see nothing indicating
> intended harassment'. Will there be a counterpart
> to the 'G2 Branch' under the New Order?
Mr. Murphy,
As this is likely to become tedious to the general readers, I shall make
this my last public reply to your remarks. Should you wish to address
additional comments to me, you may do so privately, but of course this
will deprive you of your place in the center ring.
It is unclear why you perceive some immense and sinister conspiracy
involving the Genealogical Office, the Niadh Nask, and, it would seem,
all heralds, persons holding any titles of nobility, and chivalric
orders. If you find such things as distasteful as your comments imply,
it might be far more agreeable for you to simply avoid reading
rec.heraldry and similar newsgroups.
There is no "realignment of forces" intended. Quite simply, the officers
of the Niadh Nask have stated to the entire membership (as of today) that
the pedigree advanced by Terence McCarthy is not credible. The
organization is examining the statements and research T.McC. has made
concerning the history of the NN, and we are finding that an increasing
number of these are not based on solid scholarship. While the NN has
existed in the past (as referenced by Keating and other writers), it will
be some time before the mythology can be untangled from true historical
references, and the exact historical nature of the NN can be adequately
described. I readily admit that there is much to be done on this front.
With that said, the Niadh Nask, as a group of people with a genuine
interest in the old Gaelic nobility, has great potential to support the
activities of the legitimate Chiefs of the Name. There is a great deal
of research which might be supported by means of grants to credible and
credentialed scholars. It is my hope that the Niadh Nask may be
harnessed to this end, once the process of stripping away mythology has
taken place - a process which will, no doubt, be painful for some.
There will be no "New Order." The Niadh Nask will either reform and
become an organization which supports the Gaelic nobility in a meaningful
way, or it will cease to exist. Its precise nature, and any form of
patronage from the various legitimate Chiefs, are matters which are yet
to be determined. Having known many members of the NN for years, I am
willing to trust in their honor, and have resolved to make what efforts I
can to make the NN a positive means of support for the institution of
Gaelic Irish Chiefship in general, and as a forum for discussion of
Ireland's Gaelic past.
If you find the notion of a highly stratified, inegalitarian, and
aristocratic Gaelic Ireland repugnant, I am sorry. The reality of this
history cannot be changed, although it seems to be quite readily ignored
in some circles. Be that as it may, there are those who have a genuine
interest in discovering more about that past, and in preserving what
fragmentary remnants yet survive. The Niadh Nask is an existing
organization which counts among its members a great many people with such
interests.
For most members of the Niadh Nask, the common interest in Gaelic Ireland
has been the important tie binding us. While it may be enjoyable to
dress up and wear insignia of whatever sort, a few ounces of metal on
one's chest is not sufficient inducement for the people I know to abandon
all reason. Your suggestion that the Niadh Nask consists essentially of
wide-eyed Americans salivating at the prospect of shiny trinkets is not
only puerile and offensive, but also entirely inaccurate.
Yet, your simplistic assertions notwithstanding, many members of the
Niadh Nask were drawn in by a vision of Gaelic Ireland that did not cower
in the face of the Norman 'invasion,' and which celebrated the Gaelic
resistance against English rule for nearly 600 years. The vision of a
sophisticated and truly regal sense of Irish kingship remains appealing,
and serious study of the Gaelic Irish kingdoms continues to bring to
light the extent of the development of court life, cultural exchange, and
the export of monastics to the Continent in the context of 12th and 13th-
century Ireland. The picture emerging is far different from the concept
of an entire society of peasant farmers existing in a form of Gaelic
'proto-communism.'
It is, by the way, silly of you to raise the issue of the 'G2 Branch'
statement, made by another person on a web site not under my control,
which site had been linked to the Royal Eoghanacht site long before the
statement had been drafted. Although it is not necessarily a statement I
would have advised, when the statement was written, I was 1000 miles away
from home, visiting relatives on Cape Cod, and was in a cabin with no
telephone, much less a computer. Even so, I stand by my previous view
that I did not see anything overtly threatening in the statement as it
then existed. Perhaps you are so thin-skinned as to shrink from even a
bland assertion that you were to be 'investigated.' If such statements
constitute threats in your mind, you have my sympathy, as it must be
impossible for you to conduct your life in the modern world.
Lastly, it is particularly disagreeable that you should gain notariety as
a 'professional genealogist' from the present sad situation. That you
are willing to advance your own reputation in such a way is
incomprehensible, but perhaps provides some explanation for your
exclusion from the Genealogical Office's list of contract genealogists.
Your implicit assertion that the material you have presented came as a
result of your own original research and insights has already been
countered privately. Perhaps it is time for you to embrace the adage,
'vir sapit qui pauca loquitur.'
Sincerely,
Patrick O'Shea
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
www2.smumn.edu/facpages/~poshea
Patrick M. O'Shea
>
> We have differed in the past, in particular over this question,
> but I must unhesitatingly express my admiration for your good
> faith and obviously good intentions. I am sure that being taken
> in by a confidence trickster is always a horrible experience,
> especially when one has invested time and money in an enterprise.
> To admit that one has made an error is difficult, and I admire
> Mr O'Shea for having the courage to have stated his positionso
> clearly.
>
> I hope that soon he will give similar consideration to the claims
> of the so-called "Order of Saint Stanislas".
Thank you for the encouraging words, Guy. We have, indeed, butted heads
over the Terence McCarthy issue more than once, and although I have let
Gaelic fervor get the better of me in some of those exchanges, I had
always been proceeding from an understanding of Terence's pedigree as
solidly proven. In light of the recent and impending revelations, any
person with an ounce of integrity must abandon untenable positions and
apologize for any harm done, however unintended. You do have my public
and sincere apology in this regard (as does Francois Velde and the
several others I have verbally lashed from time to time on this issue).
With respect to the Order of St. Stanislas, I have not been an active
member of that organization since I formally resigned and returned all
insignia in 1996 or 1997 (I'd have to check my correspondence to be
exact). I resolved at that time that there were sufficient questions
about the history of the order, and about its Grand Master, that as a
person not acquainted with the Polish nobility it was better for me
personally to sever ties with the organization rather than to embark upon
a course of research to satisfy my concerns which I felt ill-prepared to
follow. To be honest, I still do not know enough about the organization
to make any meaningful public comment on its legitimacy, nor do I intend
to re-visit the issue personally. In the final analysis, the Order of
Saint Stanislas is basically irrelevant to my own heritage and interests.
My concern has been, and continues to be, the support of the old Gaelic
Irish nobility. I am hopeful that a reformed and re-defined Niadh Nask
will be a key element in that support. I also continue to research the
genealogy of the chiefly lines of the O'Sheas, and have identified at
least two potential candidates who may yet seek to be recognized in the
chiefship (once the Terence McCarthy matter has receded from the public
consciousness). As an O'Shea working for the recognition and general
acceptance of an O'Shea Chief of the Name, I cannot be connected with
anything suspect or unsubstantianted, and had the officers of the NN not
made the painful but necessary decisions outlined today, I would have had
no choice but to withdraw from the organization. I am very proud to be
able to stand with the officers of the NN at this difficult time, as I
consider them to be honorable men, and I believe that their decision
speaks clearly for their integrity.
There is still much work to be done in promoting the historical concept
of highly developed and sophisticated Gaelic kingdoms. Although credible
research reveals an ever-clearer picture of the Gaelic kingdoms as having
power and influence similar to their Continental counterparts in the 12th
century, and a resurgence of Gaelic power in the 14th and 15th centuries,
the prevailing understanding of ancient Ireland still suffers from
centuries of anti-Irish propaganda. For this very reason, the idealized
version of Gaelic history presented by Terence McCarthy was extremely
seductive, as it charged headlong at the notion of Gaelic Ireland as
"quaint" or even "barbaric." The truth, alas, is somewhere between these
extremes, and I believe that the Niadh Nask will emerge from the present
crisis as an organization devoted to finding and preserving that truth.
Best regards,
Patrick
KauttWH
>From: Guy Stair Sainty Guy_m...@newsguy.com
>Date: Fri, 08 October 1999 05:35 PM EDT
>Message-id: <7tlo3l$15...@drn.newsguy.com>
>
>In article <7tl3ra$ot0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Patrick says...
>
>We have differed in the past, in particular over this question,
>but I must unhesitatingly express my admiration for your good
>faith and obviously good intentions. I am sure that being taken
>in by a confidence trickster is always a horrible experience,
>especially when one has invested time and money in an enterprise.
>To admit that one has made an error is difficult, and I admire
>Mr O'Shea for having the courage to have stated his positionso
>clearly.
>
>I hope that soon he will give similar consideration to the claims
>of the so-called "Order of Saint Stanislas".
>
>I wish that those who have been taken in by false Saint John/Malta
>Orders would take action when they discover the truth. If the
>purveyors of false tiles and Orders are sued for their deception it will
>certainly deter others in the future. Such suits have been successful
>in the US federal courts.
Ladies and Gents,
I have been quietly following these commentaries with some interest--I don't
think I've ever made my association with the NN a secret.
To answer continuous questions about why people were fooled by Terrence
McCarthy, I will put forward my own case. I am not ignorant of Irish history
nor do I consider myself a fool, but in this matter I trusted the opinions of
those who are more learned than I in matters of genealogy and nobility.
At the same time, I read of the papers concerning Terrence McCarthy's pedigree
(from the former Chief Herald and the Marques de la Floresta). In fact, the
certification of arms by the Marques de la Floresta is quite remarkable to me
as it said (I read the original Spanish to make sure it wasn't mistranslated)
that he had the right to create nobles and they were to be recognized as such
in Spain. It was these proofs that I accepted--for again, I do not have the
background in genealogy that I would like, nor do I spend my research time in
the National Library Archives room (the floor above the Chief Herald's areas
btw) looking into documents related to the McM.
It was not until someone independent of the Chief Herald, who was wrongfully
vilified by many of the McCarthy supporters, Berresford Ellis--who's reputation
in Irish history is second-to-none--looked at the same evidence and came to the
same conclusion that I could believe that six heralds and several governments,
not to mention legit nobles from throughout Europe, were simply wrong.
As for the people I've met in the NN, I can say that when I first read the
emails we transmit amongst ourselves about the truth of the evidence, I didn't
feel sorry for me, but only concern for the NN. These are truly the most
honorable people I've ever met! I've spent seven years as an officer in the
USAF and I just finished a tour as a history professor at the USAF Academy
(where they live and breathe honor for real [yes I've SEEN cadets turn
themselves in for honor violations!!]). But I can only assure you that the
companions of the NN, while some blow some serious hot air once in a while, are
honest, honorable, sincere, trustworthy people. My fear was that a group like
the NN would fall apart and such people would have that much more difficulty
associating.
What will the NN do in the future? Simple, I still remember what Patrick C B
said in an email when many NN were attacking his unkind words about Terrence
McCarthy many months ago when this broke--he said (forgive me Patrick, but I
must paraphrase): that I support the MacCarthy Mór, not Terrence McCarthy since
he is not the McM. I was struck by that at the time and I've remembered it
until now because it's the righ view to take. The NN will support the
MacCarthy Mór, whoever that will be and anyone of us who doesn't, should
resign.
Finally, I agree that it takes real guts to say you were wrong, especially
considering the heated discussions in ATR and rec.heraldry. Patrick O'Shea and
the others who most adamant in defense don't deserve pitty or
congratulations--they are simply doing what honorable men like them do when
they've made an honest mistake. As for me, mea culpa, mea culpa..... and I
stand willing to help make a NN that will do what Patrick O'Shea is talking
about (trust me I pay for my own trips to Ireland) there's precious little
money for research in history, let alone Irish history!!!
Bill Kautt
Michael F McCartney
on-topic word from the subject line of this thread: now that we
know who signed the grant etc., does anyone know the blazon? (if
the term has become unfamiliar - nay, atrophied - thru non-use,
that's the funny-french description of those strange squiggles on
shields...)
Michael F McCartney
some will admit it to themselves, some in public, while others
won't or can't. Some deams die slowly and in private, some (like
the topic of this thread) die a painful and public death. Whether
the survivors retreat into cynicism, blosson into sadder but wiser
seekers, or fall prey yet again to the next beguiling voice, of
course varies from person to person.
As the SCA'ers would say, "in service to the Dream" - hopefully a
worthwhile one!
The ushers will now collect the offering...
Mike Dwyer
EJD <"ejd2(remove)"@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>
> Michael,
> I would ask you the same question I posed to P. O'Shea: what
> was it in the end that finally convinced you that Terence MacCarthy
>was a fraud - an accumulation of evidence, or.... ?
> - Edward
>
>
Edward,
First, let me say, I am no expert on Irish history. In agreement with
the comments made by Patrick O'Shea, I must say the men I have had
dealings with in the NN are wonderful people who are men of honor and
integrity. I do not have all the facts, therefore I can't tell you
everything. All I know is the officers of the NN have said that
Terrence MacCarthy's claim to the title of MacCarthy Mor is no longer
tenable and that they no longer recognize him as such and that more
information will be forthcoming. As a matter of faith in these men,
I've accepted their ruling. Since I believe these men are of the
highest caliber, I believe they could only have changed their minds
about Terrence MacCarthy after being presented with very convincing
evidence. I have not yet seen the evidence myself, but I'm willing,
for the moment, to accept their interpretation of it.
--
J. Michael Dwyer
VIRTUS SOLA NOBILITAS
se...@maclochlainn.freeserve.co.uk
Patrick M. O'Shea <pos...@smumn.edu> wrote:
I dare say that any such
> development will have precious little to do with your 'research' or
your
> strident rhetoric.
Whose research is it?
Sean
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
>A grant of arms to President Clinton was issued on 15 June 1995 by Chief
>Herald Donal Begley. This appears to have been a low key grant, perhaps
>because of the then controversy over the spurious Roslea pedigree of
>Clinton's maternal Cassidy ancestors. I would imagine that further
>particulars of the arms granted to the President would be available from the
>Irish Genealogical Office (2 Kildare Street, Dublin 2).
>
>early retirement in 1995. Begley of course was also the Chief Herald who
>recognised Terence MacCarthy as MacCarthy Mór in 1991-92. Interesting to see
>how MacCarthy's support base continues to crumble, the latest high profile
>courtiers to defect being Peter Berresford Ellis and Patrick O'Shea.
I'd missed this......where/when did this come to light?
> What we
>are witnessing of course is merely a realignment of forces and not a true
>dawning of reason, as 'ordenshunger' remains as strong as ever and is
>already finding new outlets. The recent accelerated issue of grants of arms
>by the Irish Genealogical Office is a case in point. I would have thought
>that the Chief Herald should in fact have suspended such activities pending
>identification of the extent to which spurious arms, false pedigrees and
>bogus titles have been infilitrated into the records of the Office over the
>past 20 years.
>
>Sean Murphy
>Centre for Irish Genealogical and Local Studies
>http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/chiefs/
>
>*********************************************************
>
>EJD <"ejd2(remove)"@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>news:37FCD42C...@worldnet.att.net...
>> Does anyone know the details of President Clinton's arms? He is
>> mentioned, in passing, in an article
>> in Tuesdays "Irish Times" as having a grant.
>> - Edward
>>
>
>
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan HonFHS FSA(Scot)
Managing Director - Heraldic Media Limited
Publishers of "Cracroft's Peerage"
Tel: 0181-871 4659
Fax: 0870 0522631
E-mail: herald...@kwtelecom.com
Web site: http://www.kwtelecom.com/hmedia/
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
<kau...@aol.com> writes
Thanks for a "from the heart" posting, Bill.....a really can understand
where you're coming from. some of this is news to me as I was not aware
that Patrick O'Shea had moved away from Terence McCarthy...for some
inexplicable reason I appear to have been taken off the NN e-mail
circulation list...perhaps I should insist on being put back on!
So what is going to happen to the NN.....anybody heard anything?
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
deja.com> writes
>In article <37FE9137...@worldnet.att.net>,
> EJD <"ejd2(remove)"@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>
>> Michael,
>> I would ask you the same question I posed to P. O'Shea: what
>> was it in the end that finally convinced you that Terence MacCarthy
>>was a fraud - an accumulation of evidence, or.... ?
>> - Edward
>>
>>
>
>Edward,
>First, let me say, I am no expert on Irish history. In agreement with
>the comments made by Patrick O'Shea, I must say the men I have had
>dealings with in the NN are wonderful people who are men of honor and
>integrity.
I wish I could agree with you. I remember when I first met Roger
Sherman - a man I have the greatest personal respect for - and wondering
how anyone like him could possibly be taken in by the legitimacy of the
Irish title he was sporting. Everything that he told me about the MM
screamed at me that this was an out and out fraud...but what on earth do
you say to a man who has just parted with several thousand dollars for
his shiny new title?
> I do not have all the facts, therefore I can't tell you
>everything. All I know is the officers of the NN have said that
>Terrence MacCarthy's claim to the title of MacCarthy Mor is no longer
>tenable and that they no longer recognize him as such and that more
>information will be forthcoming. As a matter of faith in these men,
>I've accepted their ruling. Since I believe these men are of the
>highest caliber, I believe they could only have changed their minds
>about Terrence MacCarthy after being presented with very convincing
>evidence. I have not yet seen the evidence myself, but I'm willing,
>for the moment, to accept their interpretation of it.
Hmm.....I find this mindset slightly worrying. Why accept what others
say? Surely you can do some research and eventually come up with your
own decision on the rights and wrongs of TM's case. You originally
accepted TM as MM by blindly accepting what others said...now you're
compounding your mistake my accepting without question when they say he
is not the MM. C'mon man.....think for yourself. This isn't the army
were you have to accept what your superior officers see...it's civvy
street, where you think for yourself.
>--
>J. Michael Dwyer
>VIRTUS SOLA NOBILITAS
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
Mike Dwyer
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan <herald...@www.kwtelecom.com> wrote:
> In article <7tnf6d$bh3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Mike Dwyer <liongules@my-
> deja.com> writes
> >
> Sherman - a man I have the greatest personal respect for - and
wondering
> how anyone like him could possibly be taken in by the legitimacy of
the
> Irish title he was sporting. Everything that he told me about the MM
> screamed at me that this was an out and out fraud...but what on earth
do
> you say to a man who has just parted with several thousand dollars for
> his shiny new title?
Unfortunately, not everyone is as perceptive as you.
Nothing "screamed" at me about anything in the whole TM affair.
>
> Hmm.....I find this mindset slightly worrying. Why accept what others
> say? Surely you can do some research and eventually come up with your
> own decision on the rights and wrongs of TM's case. You originally
> accepted TM as MM by blindly accepting what others said...now you're
> compounding your mistake my accepting without question when they say
>he is not the MM. C'mon man.....think for yourself. This isn't the
>army were you have to accept what your superior officers see...it's
>civvy street, where you think for yourself.
>
I'm afraid I don't go about questioning everything I see and hear in
life. Like the majority of people, when I read something or am told
something, I tend to accept it as fact unless it flies in the face of
something else that I aready know. I'm sorry if it worries you, but
I've never claimed to be perfect. If you, or Guy Stair Sainty, or
Francois Velde, tell me something concerning a heraldic matter, because
I have come to respect your expertise in the field of heraldry, I
accept it, I don't go and do research.....I just accept it. Perhaps
that's not right, but it's just the way I am.
--
J. Michael Dwyer, FRSAI, FSA (Scot)
VIRTUS SOLA NOBILITAS
Patrick M. O'Shea
EJD <"ejd2(remove)"@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>
> Patrick,
> This must be a somewhat difficult time for you, given your earlier
> committment to Mr MacCarthy. However, it would be of some interest to many of us
> was a fraud - was it an accumulation of evidence, or.... ?
> - Edward
Dear Edward and All,
There are limitations to what can be said at present, due to the not-yet-
released status of the documents held by the Genealogical Office. It is
my understanding that the first Freedom of Information Act requests will
be processed within the week, and at that time the contents of the
documentation may be freely discussed.
My own statements are made on the basis of information passed to me by a
friend and scholar who has examined in detail the documentation of the
pedigree. Let me make it clear that this person is similarly constrained
by the legal protocols mentioned above, but in consideration of my
personal request, he consented inform me and other members of the Niadh
Nask of his findings, in general terms. It should be noted that this
scholar has known Terence McCarthy for some time, and had been supportive
of him in the past. Thus, the Niadh Nask officers were sufficiently
reassured that he would not be a part of any attempt to discredit without
cause Terence McCarthy or damage his claim to the chiefship.
Again, I cannot speak as an officer of the NN, but it is my understanding
that based on the characterizations of the documents made by the above-
mentioned scholar, the officers felt that now was the time to make a
clear statement about the insufficiency of Terence McCarthy's pedigree.
I support that interpretation, and where my opinion has been sought, I
have stated as much.
Unfortunately, until all of the documentation concerning the Terence
McCarthy matter is in public hands, I cannot make additional comments
with specificity. I hope you will be patient as the matter unfolds.
Shortly, the specific details will be known, and as certain members of
the Niadh Nask have ascertained, continuation of the organization's
support of Terence McCarthy will be shown to be untenable. In light of
this, the decision made by the NN officers is the only possible decision
which acknowledges the truth.
Regards,
Patrick O'Shea
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
www2.smumn.edu/facpages/~poshea
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
>In article <7tjcem$br5$1...@scotty.tinet.ie>,
> "Sean J Murphy" <seanj...@tinet.ie> wrote:
>
>> The Clinton grant was in fact the last made by Begley before his unexpected
>> early retirement in 1995. Begley of course was also the Chief Herald who
>> recognised Terence MacCarthy as MacCarthy Mór in 1991-92. Interesting to see
>> how MacCarthy's support base continues to crumble, the latest high profile
>> are witnessing of course is merely a realignment of forces and not a true
>> dawning of reason, as 'ordenshunger' remains as strong as ever and is
>> already finding new outlets. The recent accelerated issue of grants of arms
>> by the Irish Genealogical Office is a case in point. I would have thought
>> that the Chief Herald should in fact have suspended such activities pending
>> identification of the extent to which spurious arms, false pedigrees and
>> bogus titles have been infilitrated into the records of the Office over the
>> past 20 years.
>
>development will have precious little to do with your 'research' or your
>strident rhetoric.
>
>making an official statement regarding the Terence McCarthy matter later
>today. Although certain individuals will be dancing with glee on the
>figurative grave of Terence McCarthy, we hope that the same people will
>accept the assertion that the Niadh Nask may yet survive and be of
>significant benefit to the Irish Chiefs in the future.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Patrick M. O'Shea
>--
Well done, Patrick.....it cannot have been easy to write this and I
applaud you for your honesty and integrity.
I don't think that anyone will be "dancing on the figurative grave of
Terence MacCarthy". The whole affair is terribly sad. It proves just
how important it is to not always take claimants to titles at face value
but to look carefully at what lies behind the glittering facade.
I totally agree with your ideas for the future of the NN...shorn of all
the false nobiliary trappings (is anyone going to take legal action for
the recovery of the fees they've paid Terence MacCarthy for non-existent
titles?) it certainly could have great use in channelling interest in
Irish culture and traditions (but please get rid of the Gallowgalss
Guard.....they really are a joke!) and I would be happy to be more open
about my own membership of the NN if this was the case.
Regards
Patrick
PS Do any of us really belong to the NN now? If TM was a fraud, then
surely any awards by him are totally null and void?
PPS Is there any reason why I appear to have been removed from the NN e-
mail circulation list? Surely not because I objected to the support for
Leka soi disant King of the Albanians...or Roger touting his cut price
cigars?
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
deja.com> writes
>>
>> We have differed in the past, in particular over this question,
>> but I must unhesitatingly express my admiration for your good
>> faith and obviously good intentions. I am sure that being taken
>> in by a confidence trickster is always a horrible experience,
>> especially when one has invested time and money in an enterprise.
>> To admit that one has made an error is difficult, and I admire
>> Mr O'Shea for having the courage to have stated his positionso
>> clearly.
>>
>
>that Terrence MacCarthy was not who he said he was and he has tricked a
>great many people. I apologize for any aggravation I may have caused
>anyone, especially Mr. Sainty and Mr. Crackroft-Brennan, in our
>previous discussion on this matter.
Mr Dwyer...please...no apologies necessary. These things happen, it's
life. I can assure you that in the future there'll be many well-meaning
people like yourself who will be taken for a ride by glib-sounding
confidence tricksters. The only regret I've got is that people didn't
listen to experts like Guy Stair Sainty before sending off their cheques
(sorry, checks!).
We learn from our mistakes and perhaps this will encourage more people
to seriously look at the claims of such people as Julius Solonocki and
Lloyd Worley.
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
<pos...@smumn.edu> writes
But the problem here, Patrick, is that you, me and anyone else who got a
diploma from TM got a dud. IF the NN still exists (and there does
appear to be some real doubt whever it has survived to modern times or
is just a re-invention of TM) then any appointments made to it by TM are
null and void and any future appointments to it await on the pleasure of
the real MM, whoever he may be.
What we have at the moment if the present "members" of the NN continue
to assert such membership is a bunch of Americans who have in effect
self-appointed themselves to an organisation they choose to call the NN.
They will lack all credibility (my previous post notwithstanding) if
they pursue the path you suggest.
Having thought about it a bit further, surely the correct and honourable
thing for everyone who has received anything from TM to do is to just to
throw away the whole lot.....NN, titles, uniforms, the lot!.....and
await the decision of the GO as to who is the rightful Head of the
MacCarthys (aka the MacCarthy Mor). It will then be up to that person to
decide (a) whether he wants the NN to exist or not, if so (b) whether he
wants to make any appointments, if so (c) what appointments he wants to
make, etc.
Once TM has been exposed as a fraud, for anyone to claim to be an
ongoing "officer of the NN" is ludicrous. How can he have been
appointed as an officer if the person making the appointment had no
right to make that appointment.
I'm sorry to be so harsh....but there are times when you've got to face
facts.
KauttWH
>But the problem here, Patrick, is that you, me and anyone else who got a
>diploma from TM got a dud. IF the NN still exists (and there does
>appear to be some real doubt whever it has survived to modern times or
>is just a re-invention of TM) then any appointments made to it by TM are
>null and void and any future appointments to it await on the pleasure of
>the real MM, whoever he may be.
>
>What we have at the moment if the present "members" of the NN continue
>to assert such membership is a bunch of Americans who have in effect
>self-appointed themselves to an organisation they choose to call the NN.
>They will lack all credibility (my previous post notwithstanding) if
>they pursue the path you suggest.
>
>Having thought about it a bit further, surely the correct and honourable
>thing for everyone who has received anything from TM to do is to just to
>throw away the whole lot.....NN, titles, uniforms, the lot!.....and
>await the decision of the GO as to who is the rightful Head of the
>MacCarthys (aka the MacCarthy Mor). It will then be up to that person to
>decide (a) whether he wants the NN to exist or not, if so (b) whether he
>wants to make any appointments, if so (c) what appointments he wants to
>make, etc.
>
>Once TM has been exposed as a fraud, for anyone to claim to be an
>ongoing "officer of the NN" is ludicrous. How can he have been
>appointed as an officer if the person making the appointment had no
>right to make that appointment.
But he did, he was recognized by competant authority, see my last post.
Kautt
KauttWH
>surely any awards by him are totally null and void?
Patrick (Cracroft Brenan),
Since you've brought this up publicly, then I shall give my thoughts here. My
take is that if an American president were elected, but was Constitutionally
unqualified to sit (too young or of foreign birth) and this were discovered
after he'd been in office, then while he would be removed from office, his
appointments would still stand. The bills he signed into law would not become
null, nor the commissions he signed as they were executed in good faith.
I believe this is a close parallel. While the end result of Terence McCarthy's
case is that he is not qualified to be the MacCarthy Mór, he was still
recognized as such by competent authority. As long as he was acting as part of
his Office, then his appointments stand--my brevet was signed MacCarthy ór, not
Tadg or Terrence. Therefore, I would argue that the membership is valid.
Kautt
EJD
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan wrote:
>
>
> So why should it me any different with TM and the NN? Could it possibly
> be that certain persons have a vested interest in continuing the NN in
> one way or another, whatever the legalities of the matter. They've sent
> the Gallowglass Guard to march in the St Patrick Day Parade (aka the IRA
> Flag Day) in New York. They've even got their photo on the web kissing
> the ring of the Cardinal!!
Patrick, I rather fear you are loosing the run of yourself (again...). Am I to take
it that the Cardinal is an IRA man, and that Ireland's national day is nothing but a
flag day? Only for the fact that you have somewhat of a track record for making
"unfortunate" remarks, I would be very annoyed...
- EJD
Barry Gabriel
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan wrote:
> [snip]
>
> Mr Dwyer...please...no apologies necessary. These things happen, it's
> life. I can assure you that in the future there'll be many well-meaning
> people like yourself who will be taken for a ride by glib-sounding
> confidence tricksters. The only regret I've got is that people didn't
> listen to experts like Guy Stair Sainty before sending off their cheques
> (sorry, checks!).
>
> We learn from our mistakes and perhaps this will encourage more people
> to seriously look at the claims of such people as Julius Solonocki and
> Lloyd Worley.
And lets not forget the Duke of Albany.
BG
Barry Gabriel
> Patrick Cracroft-Brennan wrote:
> [snip]
>
> As far as I am
> > aware no-one makes anything up, comes along one day and says "Hey guys!
> > Look, here's a third metal. I know you've never heard of it but beleive
> > me, it really exists.".
>
> Um, sorta like when the CHA said "look, here's a third metal" (copper)
> and I believe them, it exists, because the CHA said so!! They invented
> pink too, just for good measure!! (remember?)
Thanks for reminding people. In Canada there is now copper, which if truth be
known in the paintings I have seen looks remarkably like gold. Rose is the
name of the other color. It isn't really pink per se, it is more a magenta
like color...a dark pink I suppose.
BG
Barry Gabriel
> [snip]
> >Patrick, I rather fear you are loosing the run of yourself (again...). Am I to
> >take
> >it that the Cardinal is an IRA man, and that Ireland's national day is nothing
> >but a
> >flag day? Only for the fact that you have somewhat of a track record for making
> >"unfortunate" remarks, I would be very annoyed...
> > - EJD
> >
>
> So the buckets out collecting funds for Noraid at the St Patricks Day
> Parade were just a figment of our imaginations?
What's Noraid?
BG
Patrick M. O'Shea
se...@maclochlainn.freeserve.co.uk wrote:
> Whose research is it?
In private correspondence, Mr. Murphy has pointed out to me that it is
improper to make any allegations concerning his research and the
integrity of any reports issuing from it without firsthand knowledge of
his methods and procedure. I concede that he is correct on this point,
and as some of my earlier comments were based on hearsay, it is fitting
that I hereby retract any statements concerning the integrity of Mr.
Murphy's research, and apologize for them.
I continue to have my own opinions about Mr. Murphy's motivations in
this matter, but shall keep these private from this point forward. I
have pointed out to Mr. Murphy that my responses were made in the face
of his own insinuations about my character and motivations, but in
retrospect, I regret giving into the temptation of making a public
response.
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
<kau...@aol.com> writes
>>Subject: Re: Terence McCarthy & my silence
>>From: Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
>
>>diploma from TM got a dud. IF the NN still exists (and there does
>>appear to be some real doubt whever it has survived to modern times or
>>is just a re-invention of TM) then any appointments made to it by TM are
>>null and void and any future appointments to it await on the pleasure of
>>the real MM, whoever he may be.
>>
>>What we have at the moment if the present "members" of the NN continue
>>to assert such membership is a bunch of Americans who have in effect
>>self-appointed themselves to an organisation they choose to call the NN.
>>They will lack all credibility (my previous post notwithstanding) if
>>they pursue the path you suggest.
>>
>>Having thought about it a bit further, surely the correct and honourable
>>thing for everyone who has received anything from TM to do is to just to
>>throw away the whole lot.....NN, titles, uniforms, the lot!.....and
>>await the decision of the GO as to who is the rightful Head of the
>>MacCarthys (aka the MacCarthy Mor). It will then be up to that person to
>>decide (a) whether he wants the NN to exist or not, if so (b) whether he
>>wants to make any appointments, if so (c) what appointments he wants to
>>make, etc.
>>
>>Once TM has been exposed as a fraud, for anyone to claim to be an
>>ongoing "officer of the NN" is ludicrous. How can he have been
>>appointed as an officer if the person making the appointment had no
>>right to make that appointment.
>
>
TM as MM on a false premise, ie that he really was who he said he was.
He was not who he said he was, therefore the recognition is null and
void and therefore any appointments, awards, etc, by TM are similarly
null and void.
It really is a root and branch situation!!
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
deja.com> writes
>In article <tgYiGIAO42$3E...@londwill.demon.co.uk>,
> Patrick Cracroft-Brennan <herald...@www.kwtelecom.com> wrote:
>> deja.com> writes
>> >
OK....if one of us tells you something about heraldry, then hopefully
its not inconsistent with what you already know about heraldry so you
you're on a pretty safe bet to go along with what we say. Heraldry is a
science, full of rules and laws and factual things. As far as I am
aware no-one makes anything up, comes along one day and says "Hey guys!
Look, here's a third metal. I know you've never heard of it but beleive
me, it really exists.".
But the claims of TM are something different indeed.
Lets look at just one of these.....
His claim to be "Prince of Desmond" (and by this not just an empty
style, like, sau "Prince of Thomomnd" used by the head of the O'Brien
family, but claims that just fall a tad short of cliaming semi-regal
status)......
Tell me...excluding holders of foreign titles, how many other Brits (in
the widest sense) do you find tramping round England claimning to be,
say, Prince of Swaledale...or round Scotland claiming to be, say, Prince
of Fife? The answer in: NONE. In the UK and Ireland we just don't
have princely titles outside the Royal Family. In England you'd need to
go back to the Heptarchy of pre-Conquest times, in Scotland to the 11th
century and in Wales to about the 14th century before you got to any
princely titles outside the Royal Family. In Ireland things were
slightly different, but any native titles ceased by the end of the 16th
century.
So, you come across this Irish guy claiming to be a Prince, disposing of
titles and handing out his house "order"...even forming a personal
bodyguard. Now doesn't this strike you as a tad odd? Even a
rudimentary knowledge of British history should tell you that this is
totally at odds with reality.
And "reality" is really what we're talking about. If you know anything
about Orders of Chivalry, you know that it is an absolute minefield,
with fraudsters trying to sell you this Order or that Order. You know
that you ought to check things out....look things up in a standard
reference work...put it past with people who know about these things.
But what happens? A nice neck cross or title is dangled in front of
you, and "Poof!", out the window goes any sense of reality. How else
can you explain how people could possibly beleive that an Irish "prince"
could make them "Lord of This" or "Lord of That", how else can you
explain how people could possibly beleive that the heir to the
Hohenstauffens could suddenly reappear after centuries? But they do.
It's sad, but they really do.
Let's not get too upset over this...what has happened has
happened....let's look to the future, slightly wiser if slightly poorer
in our pockets!
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
Please, Patrick, let's drop all this cloak and dagger nonsence once and
for all. What on earth do you mean by "legal constraints"? All the
records held by the Chief Herald are records of the National Library and
as such public documents, available to all.
Sean Murphy published his findings on here months ago. What more
evidence do you need?
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
<kau...@aol.com> writes
>>PS Do any of us really belong to the NN now? If TM was a fraud, then
>>surely any awards by him are totally null and void?
>
>
>Since you've brought this up publicly, then I shall give my thoughts here. My
>take is that if an American president were elected, but was Constitutionally
>unqualified to sit (too young or of foreign birth) and this were discovered
>after he'd been in office, then while he would be removed from office, his
>appointments would still stand. The bills he signed into law would not become
>null, nor the commissions he signed as they were executed in good faith.
>
>I believe this is a close parallel.
I can see no parallel.
> While the end result of Terence McCarthy's
>case is that he is not qualified to be the MacCarthy Mór, he was still
>recognized as such by competent authority. As long as he was acting as part of
>his Office, then his appointments stand--my brevet was signed MacCarthy ór, not
>Tadg or Terrence. Therefore, I would argue that the membership is valid.
>
I beg to differ. The Genealogical Office was duped into giving
recognition based on falsified information given to them by TM. TM then
proceeded to trade on this recognition, knowing full well that the
information he had given to the GO for the purposes of seeking
recognition was falsified. There was no "good faith" in this sordid
matter in shape or form.
There is maxim in Common Law that a criminal should not be allowed to
benefit from his crime. The recognition is void because it is based on
falsifid information. From this is follows that the appointments by TM
are also void. It also follows that he should be made to refund any
monies he received for the sale of titles, etc.
Your brevet was not signed by THE MacCarthy Mor...they were signed by a
man who knowingly had made a false claim to the style of MM and had
knowingly duped others into giving him recognition as such to further
his fraudulent ends.
Let me give you a silly analogy. I come along, claiming to be "Ming,
Emperor of the Known Universe". I manage to persuade the College of
Arms that I am the said Emperor by showing them a false birth
certificate I ran up on my PC yesterday and they issue a nicely painted
bit of vellum saying that they have recorded this in the archives of the
College. Based on this, for the moment you beleive me. I create you
"Duke of Mars" and make you a Knight Grand Cross of the Effulgent Order
of the Crab Nebula. You're as pleased as Punch with this and skoot
round the place showing your gee-gaws to all and sundry and intimidating
head waiters with your newly acquired title.
Suddenly someone twigs that the birth certificate was a fraud, that I'm
not Ming, Emperor of the Known Universe, but plain old Patrick Cracroft-
Brennan. The offending record is expunged from the archives of the
College and I am told in no uncertain terms never to darken their
threshold again.
Now, given this scenario, would you say your title of "Duke of Mars" was
still valid, 'cause at the time of creation I was shown in the archives
of Her Majesty's College of Arms as being Ming, Emperor of the Known
Universe? Of course not, you'd say the whole thing was a load of old
rubbish, that you'd been well and truly done...and you'd send round the
boys to extract from me the little sum of £10,000 I'd charged you as
"passage fees" when I "conferred" the Order of the Crab Nebula on you.
So why should it me any different with TM and the NN? Could it possibly
be that certain persons have a vested interest in continuing the NN in
one way or another, whatever the legalities of the matter. They've sent
the Gallowglass Guard to march in the St Patrick Day Parade (aka the IRA
Flag Day) in New York. They've even got their photo on the web kissing
the ring of the Cardinal!! How can they possibly lose face now by
saying it's a load of old tosh and admitting they were stupid enough to
throw away $5,000 on a worthless title? What will the wife say (she
gets turned on by seeing me in my kilt!)? What will the kids say (they
love the dressing up!)? What will my colleagues say (I made such a fuss
about getting my office business cards printed with the title I got from
the MM, I'd look a total wally if I got them to take it off now!)? I am
sure you could think of many similar scenarios for yourself!
Sorry to be so cynical, but I've learnt from experience that a pinch of
salt if not a whole bushel load ain't a bad thing when talking about
Orders and titles.
Michael F McCartney
flap re: etc etc, perhaps the Chief Herald should suspend granting
new arms etc 'till the smoke clears, or words to that effect.
I would agree that this might not be the ideal time &
circumstances to confirm any new Irish Chieftains; but I don't see
any particular bearing on the granting of NEW arms, which by
definition aren't based on any of the legal theories or pedigree
problems that have hit the fan - a new grantee by definition isn't
the heir of anybody, nor (other than perhaps an Irish-American
tracing back to his immigrant ancestor) is one's ancestry of more
than passing (& non-controlling) interest.
seanj...@my-deja.com
It is a particularly grave matter for one scholar to make an
unwarranted accusation of plagiarism against another, and I accept Dr
O'Shea's apology, even if the concluding reservation robs it of some
graciousness. While I carried out my own research and carefully cited
sources, I have discovered that there were in fact several parallel
investigations going on into the MacCarthy Mór Hoax. As I was the only
professional genealogist to issue a report above my name, I have
naturally been a particular target of resentment and malicious attack.
Contributors to this discussion group who first raised questions two
years ago about Terence MacCarthy's operations will know the feeling.
It is those who have been circulating material anonymously, leaking
documents selectively and spreading slander who should have their
characters and motivations called in question.
Sean Murphy
Centre for Irish Genealogical and Local Studies
http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/chiefs/
se...@maclochlainn.freeserve.co.uk
kau...@aol.com (KauttWH) wrote:
> >PS Do any of us really belong to the NN now? If TM was a fraud, then
> >surely any awards by him are totally null and void?
>
>
> Since you've brought this up publicly, then I shall give my thoughts
here. My
> take is that if an American president were elected, but was
Constitutionally
> unqualified to sit (too young or of foreign birth) and this were
discovered
> after he'd been in office, then while he would be removed from
office, his
> appointments would still stand. The bills he signed into law would
not become
> null, nor the commissions he signed as they were executed in good
faith.
>
McCarthy's
> case is that he is not qualified to be the MacCarthy Mór, he was still
> recognized as such by competent authority. As long as he was acting
as part of
> his Office, then his appointments stand--my brevet was signed
MacCarthy ór, not
> Tadg or Terrence. Therefore, I would argue that the membership is
valid.
The GO recognition of T MacCarthy as MacCarthy Mor is "null and void"
(Statement of GO August 1999). It is as if GO recognition were never
given. The decision of the GO was based upon sound genealogical
grounds. These same grounds would exclude T MacCarthy from succession
under the operation of a MacCarthy derbfine. T MacCarthy has no
legitimacy in the eyes of either the GO or the MacCarthy clan.
If the Niadh Nask does have a continued existence under MacCarthy Mor,
then it curently exists in its pre-T MacCarthy state. If Gaelic
lordships can be sold by MacCarthy Mor, then all the lordships sold by
T MacCarthy remain with MacCarthy Mor, whoever that might be.
A new MacCarthy Mor may ratify the actions of T MacCarthy, then again
there is no reason why he should.
This doesn't preclude those members of T MacCarthy's Niadh Nask from
staying together to pursue laudable aims in the field of history,
including an investigation into the history of the true Niadh Nask.
Sean
Ld. W. Baldwin,MD-S
> OK....if one of us tells you something about heraldry, then hopefully
> its not inconsistent with what you already know about heraldry so you
> you're on a pretty safe bet to go along with what we say. Heraldry is a
> science, full of rules and laws and factual things.
All of which change from place to place and time period to period. All
of which are greatly subject to interpretation and opinion. All of which
are full of exceptions. Pretty simple, huh? No room for confusion or
controversy there.....
As far as I am
> aware no-one makes anything up, comes along one day and says "Hey guys!
> Look, here's a third metal. I know you've never heard of it but beleive
> me, it really exists.".
Um, sorta like when the CHA said "look, here's a third metal" (copper)
and I believe them, it exists, because the CHA said so!! They invented
pink too, just for good measure!! (remember?)
> But the claims of TM are something different indeed.
>
> Lets look at just one of these.....
>
> His claim to be "Prince of Desmond" (and by this not just an empty
> style, like, sau "Prince of Thomomnd" used by the head of the O'Brien
> family, but claims that just fall a tad short of cliaming semi-regal
> status)......
>
> Tell me...excluding holders of foreign titles, how many other Brits (in
> the widest sense) do you find tramping round England claimning to be,
> say, Prince of Swaledale...or round Scotland claiming to be, say, Prince
> of Fife? The answer in: NONE. In the UK and Ireland we just don't
> have princely titles outside the Royal Family. In England you'd need to
> go back to the Heptarchy of pre-Conquest times, in Scotland to the 11th
> century and in Wales to about the 14th century before you got to any
> princely titles outside the Royal Family. In Ireland things were
> slightly different, but any native titles ceased by the end of the 16th
> century.
>
> So, you come across this Irish guy claiming to be a Prince, disposing of
> titles and handing out his house "order"...even forming a personal
> bodyguard.
The personal bodyguard was a bit much, but the rest wasn't *too*
ridiculous, since it was intended to be on the continental model, and
blatantly repudiated anything remotely British.
>Now doesn't this strike you as a tad odd? Even a
> rudimentary knowledge of British history should tell you that this is
> totally at odds with reality.
>
> And "reality" is really what we're talking about. If you know anything
> about Orders of Chivalry, you know that it is an absolute minefield,
> with fraudsters trying to sell you this Order or that Order. You know
> that you ought to check things out....look things up in a standard
> reference work...put it past with people who know about these things.
> But what happens? A nice neck cross or title is dangled in front of
> you, and "Poof!", out the window goes any sense of reality. How else
> can you explain how people could possibly beleive that an Irish "prince"
> could make them "Lord of This" or "Lord of That", how else can you
> explain how people could possibly beleive that the heir to the
> Hohenstauffens could suddenly reappear after centuries? But they do.
> It's sad, but they really do.
>
> Let's not get too upset over this...what has happened has
> happened....let's look to the future, slightly wiser if slightly poorer
> in our pockets!
This is the other crux of the problem. The people who could've sent red
flags on the whole thing had been crying wolf too long, on the wrong
issues, that they were ignored.
PCB was always spouting british this, and british that, when MM kept
saying it was an Irish thing. Thus the Irish-centric dismissed his
arguments, *including the relevant ones.* Had the arguments focused more
on fraud and false hype, the message would have been clearer. To be
fair, I believe GSS (or FV?) did begin focusing more on the man's claims
as opposed to his "nobiliary theories" towards the end. This, along with
the GO's announcement, was the first domino to go...
Ld. W. Baldwin,MD-S
> The GO recognition of T MacCarthy as MacCarthy Mor is "null and void"
> (Statement of GO August 1999). It is as if GO recognition were never
> given. The decision of the GO was based upon sound genealogical
> grounds. These same grounds would exclude T MacCarthy from succession
> under the operation of a MacCarthy derbfine. T MacCarthy has no
> legitimacy in the eyes of either the GO or the MacCarthy clan.
>
> If the Niadh Nask does have a continued existence under MacCarthy Mor,
> then it curently exists in its pre-T MacCarthy state. If Gaelic
> lordships can be sold by MacCarthy Mor, then all the lordships sold by
> T MacCarthy remain with MacCarthy Mor, whoever that might be.
>
> A new MacCarthy Mor may ratify the actions of T MacCarthy, then again
> there is no reason why he should.
>
> This doesn't preclude those members of T MacCarthy's Niadh Nask from
> staying together to pursue laudable aims in the field of history,
> including an investigation into the history of the true Niadh Nask.
Perhaps calling themselves TAFKANN. The Association Formerly Known As
Niadh Nask...
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
dnet.att.net> writes
>
>
>Patrick Cracroft-Brennan wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> So why should it me any different with TM and the NN? Could it possibly
>> be that certain persons have a vested interest in continuing the NN in
>> one way or another, whatever the legalities of the matter. They've sent
>> the Gallowglass Guard to march in the St Patrick Day Parade (aka the IRA
>> Flag Day) in New York. They've even got their photo on the web kissing
>> the ring of the Cardinal!!
>
>take
>it that the Cardinal is an IRA man, and that Ireland's national day is nothing
>but a
>flag day? Only for the fact that you have somewhat of a track record for making
>"unfortunate" remarks, I would be very annoyed...
> - EJD
>
So the buckets out collecting funds for Noraid at the St Patricks Day
Parade were just a figment of our imaginations?
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan HonFHS FSA(Scot)
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
.uk writes
>
>The GO recognition of T MacCarthy as MacCarthy Mor is "null and void"
>(Statement of GO August 1999). It is as if GO recognition were never
>given.
This is exactly what I have said in my postings.
> The decision of the GO was based upon sound genealogical
>grounds. These same grounds would exclude T MacCarthy from succession
>under the operation of a MacCarthy derbfine. T MacCarthy has no
>legitimacy in the eyes of either the GO or the MacCarthy clan.
Not only "has no" but, more importantly for those who have bought titles
off him and received membership of the NN, "has had no
legitimacy...ever".
>
>If the Niadh Nask does have a continued existence under MacCarthy Mor,
>then it curently exists in its pre-T MacCarthy state. If Gaelic
>lordships can be sold by MacCarthy Mor, then all the lordships sold by
>T MacCarthy remain with MacCarthy Mor, whoever that might be.
This would strongly lead to me suggesting that all those who have
acquired titles (now totally worthless) that they consider a class
action against TM to recover monies they have paid to him.....
>
>A new MacCarthy Mor may ratify the actions of T MacCarthy, then again
>there is no reason why he should.
>
>This doesn't preclude those members of T MacCarthy's Niadh Nask from
>staying together to pursue laudable aims in the field of history,
>including an investigation into the history of the true Niadh Nask.
But it would be wrong if they (or should I say us?), the members of "T
MacCarthy's Niadh Nask", continued to use the term "Niadh Nask" because
whatever it is we are members of, it certainly is not the "Niadh Nask".
Patrick M. O'Shea
seanj...@my-deja.com wrote:
> It is a particularly grave matter for one scholar to make an
> unwarranted accusation of plagiarism against another, and I accept Dr
> O'Shea's apology, even if the concluding reservation robs it of some
> graciousness. While I carried out my own research and carefully cited
> sources, I have discovered that there were in fact several parallel
> investigations going on into the MacCarthy Mór Hoax. As I was the only
> professional genealogist to issue a report above my name, I have
> naturally been a particular target of resentment and malicious attack.
> Contributors to this discussion group who first raised questions two
> years ago about Terence MacCarthy's operations will know the feeling.
> It is those who have been circulating material anonymously, leaking
> documents selectively and spreading slander who should have their
> characters and motivations called in question.
On this last statement, Mr. Murphy and I are in complete agreement. The
behavior of certain persons in official positions connected with these
matters has been reprehensible. It seems clear that Mr. Murphy has been
the victim of some of these attacks, and although I cannot condone any
misrepresentations of fact made by Terence McCarthy, it does seem that he
was the target of some of the selective leaks and slander cited above.
I have been told that efforts are underway to 'clean up' the Genealogical
Office, but it will be some time before the Office enjoys any widespread
credibility. Indeed, the very behavior of GO officials lent considerable
weight to Terence McCarthy's argument that he was simply the victim of a
political 'smear campaign.' Under the circumstances, the GO essentially
guaranteed that supporters of Terence McCarthy would dismiss out of hand
their assertions (including the withdrawal of recognition).
This does not make a claim to a chiefship based on flimsy or contrived
evidence in any way acceptable, but it does offer some explanation of why
Terence's supporters, particularly in America (i.e., isolated from
certain sources of information) were willing to accept Terence's word
over that of the GO. In effect, by attempting to engineer the 'downfall'
of Terence McCarthy, persons affiliated with the GO actually galvanized
his support in North America, and perpetuated the problem.
-Patrick O'Shea
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
www2.smumn.edu/facpages/~poshea
se...@maclochlainn.freeserve.co.uk
Barry Gabriel <bgab...@uccb.ns.ca> wrote:
> What's Noraid?
>
> BG
A misguided US group which raises funds for the evil Irish Republican
movement so that the communist/fascist/criminal (delete according to
whim) godfathers of the IRA can deprive children and pregnant women of
their loved ones.
Of course, while Irish-Americans know nothing about Ireland, the
British public are well informed on the subject and their country is
admirably even handed in its dealings, bearing the White Mans Burden
without a grumble.
And God is an Englishman.
Sean
CAPT Sel. Glen Cook
>gets turned on by seeing me in my kilt!)?
How did you know?
Glen Cook
Coo...@aol.com
Patrick M. O'Shea
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan <herald...@www.kwtelecom.com> wrote:
>
> PS Do any of us really belong to the NN now? If TM was a fraud, then
> surely any awards by him are totally null and void?
This, of course, depends upon what one now defines the NN to be. It is
impossible to make an absolute answer, but I am of the opinion that all
Niadh Nask, who have committed themselves to support the MacCarthy
CHIEFSHIP (and no one man), remain committed to that support. I also
believe that this mission may be extended to include the the other heirs
of provincial kingdoms, and indeed perhaps all legitimate chiefs.
Quite simply, we remain Niadh Nask. Now we must answer the fundamental
question: "What is a Niadh Nask?" I have some basic ideas (which frankly
have not changed, regardless of the MacCarthy Mor affair), but a full
answer to this question will only emerge in the coming weeks and months.
>
> PPS Is there any reason why I appear to have been removed from the NN e-
> mail circulation list? Surely not because I objected to the support for
> Leka soi disant King of the Albanians...or Roger touting his cut price
> cigars?
Your Leka comments notwithstanding (and you certainly are entitled to
your opinion on that matter), I cannot imagine why you were not included
on the e-mail distribution list. As David Wooten sent this out, I'll
check with him to be sure that you are included in any future
distribution lists.
-Patrick O'Shea
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
www2.smumn.edu/facpages/~poshea
Barry Gabriel
- Barry Gabriel wrote:
[snip]
- > Thanks for reminding people. In Canada there is now copper,
which if truth be
> known in the paintings I have seen looks remarkably like gold. Rose is the
> name of the other color. It isn't really pink per se, it is more a magenta
> like color...a dark pink I suppose.
I remembered rose but had forgotten that it wasn't exactly pink. Has
anyone ever found out the hatching scheme?
Nothing official yet, though I remember an attempt at copper which looked
something like this (.(.(.(.(.
with the dot being in the middle.
BG
Barry Gabriel
> I guess I wouldn't mind copper in my arms if it looked like gold,
> as BG says - at least not nearly as much as I would mind it, if
> the gold in my purse looked awfully like copper!
Well put. As I mentioned before, copper looks somewhat like gold in the
examples I have in my possession. I believe originally copper was used
for certain Aboriginal Nations of the west coast of Canada to whom
copper holds some significance. It has since branched out to the
dominant population in their arms, but is still fairly rare.
>
>
> Seriously, IMO copper & pink were bad ideas, just because they are
> relatively indistinct. Good armory is clear, distinctive armory -
> well at least that should be one of the criteria.
For two examples of rose, one good and one bad, visit here
http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Square/3238/Page3.html
I do not yet have any examples of copper on site...soon one hopes.
>
>
> On the other hand, a bit of experimentation isn't a bad thing, eh?
> Like any mutation, most will self-destruct in reasonably short
> order, & only the viable will survive. The history of heraldry
> has IM a strong Darwinian element...
Time will tell.
BG
Barry Gabriel
Adrian M Whatley wrote:
> To what extent are copper & rose being used? i.e. in what percentage of grants?
Not very many. Most people petitioning for arms prefer the standard tinctures and
metals.
For an example of rose, visit here
http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Square/3238/Page3.html
BG
Barry Gabriel
> [snip]
>
> I am suprised no one has used platinum or something so shiny it merely
> reflects!
Too much like silver, but there are incidents where Argent is blazoned in jewel
terms.
>
>
> I am looking at a copy of a grant from Sir Isaac Hear, Garter, following
> the grant to Thomas Lister Esq of the title Baron Ribblesdale of
> Gisburne Park in the West Riding of the County of York, of supporters -
> "On the Dexter side a Stag regardant Sable attired and unguled Or,
> gorged with a collar of SS and charged on the body with an Eagle
> displayed Gold, On the Sinister A War Horse of a brown Colour
> caparisoned proper supporting A Guidon of the York Light Dragoons Or
> charged with the Letters Y L Das the same are in the Margin hereof more
> plainly depicted..."
This is logical as the horse's color being brown would be correctly indicated as
"brown Proper" This avoids confusion over merely Proper as horses come in many
colors.
> [snip]
>
> I can understand why a horse could be brown if proper but in light of
> the thread about whether a Canadian maple leaf proper should be green or
> red it is interesting that "brown" is not only used in describing the
> supporter but also for the terminology of the shield. I have not come
> across many uses of brown.
It is fortunately rare and discouraged, but the arms of one of the African nations
(Kenya? Gambia?) uses brown (and quite effectively as well).
BG
Patrick M. O'Shea
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan <herald...@www.kwtelecom.com> wrote:
>
> But the problem here, Patrick, is that you, me and anyone else who got a
> diploma from TM got a dud. IF the NN still exists (and there does
> appear to be some real doubt whever it has survived to modern times or
> is just a re-invention of TM) then any appointments made to it by TM are
> null and void and any future appointments to it await on the pleasure of
> the real MM, whoever he may be.
I would agree if the NN were, in fact, a dynastic order specifically of
the house of MacCarthy Mor. When one examines the actual references, the
indication is that this is not so (contrary to TM's assertions). If the
NN were connected to the high kingship, or even to the larger Eoghanacht
dynasty, there are other legitimate Chiefs which are empowered to support
the continuation of the group.
>
> What we have at the moment if the present "members" of the NN continue
> to assert such membership is a bunch of Americans who have in effect
> self-appointed themselves to an organisation they choose to call the NN.
> They will lack all credibility (my previous post notwithstanding) if
> they pursue the path you suggest.
>
> Having thought about it a bit further, surely the correct and honourable
> thing for everyone who has received anything from TM to do is to just to
> throw away the whole lot.....NN, titles, uniforms, the lot!.....and
> await the decision of the GO as to who is the rightful Head of the
> MacCarthys (aka the MacCarthy Mor). It will then be up to that person to
> decide (a) whether he wants the NN to exist or not, if so (b) whether he
> wants to make any appointments, if so (c) what appointments he wants to
> make, etc.
For reasons that should now appear obvious, the GO's credibility in such
matters is now paper thin. I would much rather see the ratification of
any new MacCarthy Mor (or any chief) by the Standing Council of Irish
Chiefs. The GO should not enter into it, nor, I expect, will they wish
to do so.
>
> Once TM has been exposed as a fraud, for anyone to claim to be an
> ongoing "officer of the NN" is ludicrous. How can he have been
> appointed as an officer if the person making the appointment had no
> right to make that appointment.
>
> I'm sorry to be so harsh....but there are times when you've got to face
> facts.
No apology necessary. This is a harsh time. Still, I believe that the
NN will continue, and the matter of appropriate patronage will be
addressed in due course.
-PMOS
Ld. W. Baldwin,MD-S
>
> Ld. W. Baldwin,MD-S wrote:
>
> > Patrick Cracroft-Brennan wrote:
> > [snip]
> >
> > > aware no-one makes anything up, comes along one day and says "Hey guys!
> > > Look, here's a third metal. I know you've never heard of it but beleive
> > > me, it really exists.".
> >
> > and I believe them, it exists, because the CHA said so!! They invented
> > pink too, just for good measure!! (remember?)
>
Anton Sherwood
: (For those who miss the old version of PMOS' page on the MM,
: it's still accessible (for a limited time), in a cached version, at
: http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:34695508&dq=cache:www2.smumn.edu/munster/mccm.html
: Those pictures will be collectors' items soon!)
Okay, I've duly archived it. ;)
I must not have seen the portrait before; until now I had a mental
image that probably belongs to "Prince Michael of Albany."
--
Anton Sherwood *\\* +1 415 267 0685 *\\* http://www.jps.net/antons/
Michael F McCartney
as BG says - at least not nearly as much as I would mind it, if
the gold in my purse looked awfully like copper!
Seriously, IMO copper & pink were bad ideas, just because they are
relatively indistinct. Good armory is clear, distinctive armory -
well at least that should be one of the criteria.
On the other hand, a bit of experimentation isn't a bad thing, eh?
Like any mutation, most will self-destruct in reasonably short
order, & only the viable will survive. The history of heraldry
has IM a strong Darwinian element...
--
Michael F McCartney
on the TM/MM debacle. Both now say "phony chief" but after that
consensus breaks down!! One camp, still holding the Dream but
damning the Drummer, still looks for the Once & Future Prince -
i.e. the message was good, just abused/exploited by an evel
messenger. The other camp says, "See, the whole kit & caboodle
was a hoax - there never was (at least in modern times) & never
could be, a bi-gosh for real P of D, or any of the rest of it."
This difference will not resolve itself; it is two different world
views, who view each other as, respectively, credulous or cynical.
One might look at the VOSJ as a possible model of what the
quasi-NN might, with time, hard work & lotsa luck, strive to
become; whether they can/will make that major shift remains to be
seen.
Michael F McCartney
a seat on the Standing Council (my low sense of humor finds that
funny)--members of the standing council get a seat, non-members
are SRO :)
Since (if?) arms are still to be a part of the chiefly panoply,
and since (inevitably) pedigree is paramount to both chiefly &
armorial claims, the GO can hardly be excused from the fray even
if they want to bow out. I would suggest they limit themselves to
verifying the genealogical quals for name & arms, let the Council
decide who among the qualified should by Irish rules (whatever
they may be) should be Chief, then record ("recognise") the
selectee.
kur...@geocities.com
> Patrick Cracroft-Brennan <herald...@www.kwtelecom.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > PS Do any of us really belong to the NN now? If TM was a fraud, then
> > surely any awards by him are totally null and void?
>
> This, of course, depends upon what one now defines the NN to be. It is
> impossible to make an absolute answer, but I am of the opinion that all
> Niadh Nask, who have committed themselves to support the MacCarthy
> CHIEFSHIP (and no one man), remain committed to that support. I also
> believe that this mission may be extended to include the the other heirs
> of provincial kingdoms, and indeed perhaps all legitimate chiefs.
>
> Quite simply, we remain Niadh Nask. Now we must answer the fundamental
> question: "What is a Niadh Nask?" I have some basic ideas (which frankly
> have not changed, regardless of the MacCarthy Mor affair), but a full
> answer to this question will only emerge in the coming weeks and months.
Dear Patrick O'Shea: In order to avoid any future embarrasment to a lot of
people I hope such a reorganized NN will drop all talk of it being "ancient"
and an "order" (even a "non-chivalric" one . . .) and clearly and unequivably
state that it is an entirely modern, private organization without any
historical continuity. Until that is done, nobody with a serious interest in
chivalry will be able to take it serious.
Best wishes,
Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard
Adrian M Whatley
--
Adrian M. Whatley
Universitaet/ETH Zuerich,
Institut fuer Neuroinformatik,
Winterthurerstrasse 190,
CH-8057 Zuerich, Switzerland.
Phone: +41 1 635 3067 Fax: +41 1 635 3053
Email: a...@ini.phys.ethz.ch WWW: http://www.ini.unizh.ch/~amw
Derek Howard
>
> Ld. W. Baldwin,MD-S wrote:
>
> > Patrick Cracroft-Brennan wrote:
> > [snip]
> >
> > As far as I am
> > > aware no-one makes anything up, comes along one day and says "Hey guys!
> > > Look, here's a third metal. I know you've never heard of it but beleive
> > > me, it really exists.".
> >
> > Um, sorta like when the CHA said "look, here's a third metal" (copper)
> > and I believe them, it exists, because the CHA said so!! They invented
> > pink too, just for good measure!! (remember?)
>
> Thanks for reminding people. In Canada there is now copper, which if truth be
> known in the paintings I have seen looks remarkably like gold. Rose is the
> name of the other color. It isn't really pink per se, it is more a magenta
> like color...a dark pink I suppose.
>
I am suprised no one has used platinum or something so shiny it merely
reflects!
I am looking at a copy of a grant from Sir Isaac Hear, Garter, following
the grant to Thomas Lister Esq of the title Baron Ribblesdale of
Gisburne Park in the West Riding of the County of York, of supporters -
"On the Dexter side a Stag regardant Sable attired and unguled Or,
gorged with a collar of SS and charged on the body with an Eagle
displayed Gold, On the Sinister A War Horse of a brown Colour
caparisoned proper supporting A Guidon of the York Light Dragoons Or
charged with the Letters Y L Das the same are in the Margin hereof more
plainly depicted..."
In the same document Heard also granted arms for Fielding to be borne by
Ribblesdale in an escutcheon of pretence: "Argent on a Chevron azure a
cinquefoil on each side an Anchor erect Or in Cheif (sic) two Eagles
Heads erased, in Base a Horse of a brown Colour passant proper".
I can understand why a horse could be brown if proper but in light of
the thread about whether a Canadian maple leaf proper should be green or
red it is interesting that "brown" is not only used in describing the
supporter but also for the terminology of the shield. I have not come
across many uses of brown.
Derek Howard
Brussels, Belgium
CAPT Sel. Glen Cook
>and an "order" (even a "non-chivalric" one . . .) and clearly and unequivably
>state that it is an entirely modern, private organization without any
>historical continuity.
How about something along the lines of "in the tradition of"
>Until that is done, nobody with a serious >interest in chivalry will be able
to take it serious.
Well, on the other hand, both the VOStJ and Lazarus seem to have overcome that
obstacle, admittedly w/ intervention of Queen Victoria in the former case.
Glen Cook
Coo...@aol.com
kur...@geocities.com
coo...@aol.comnojunk (CAPT Sel. Glen Cook) wrote:
> >I hope such a reorganized NN will drop all talk of it being "ancient"
> >and an "order" (even a "non-chivalric" one . . .) and clearly and unequivably
> >state that it is an entirely modern, private organization without any
> >historical continuity.
>
> How about something along the lines of "in the tradition of"
Sure. And I am fully in favour of as many as possible forming private
organizations in the tradition of chvalry. I just do not find it necessary
to adopt all the trappings and claims which makes it appear as a historically
existing body.
> >Until that is done, nobody with a serious >interest in chivalry will be able
> to take it serious.
>
> Well, on the other hand, both the VOStJ and Lazarus seem to have overcome that
> obstacle, admittedly w/ intervention of Queen Victoria in the former case.
>
> Glen Cook
> Coo...@aol.com
In the case of the VOSJ I would say that the latter fact indeed is of quite
some importance.
In the case of Saint Lazarus: What are you talking about? While there are a
lot of fine people incolved in the two Lazarite "orders", nobody
will--hopefully--any longer take the claims of historical continuity
seriously. I have come across quite a few distinguished people who, at
first, have believed the claims, but none who have continued to do so.
Guy Stair Sainty
>
>In article <4+DHxKAjt4$3E...@londwill.demon.co.uk>,
> Patrick Cracroft-Brennan <herald...@www.kwtelecom.com> wrote:
>
>
>I would agree if the NN were, in fact, a dynastic order specifically of
>the house of MacCarthy Mor. When one examines the actual references, the
>indication is that this is not so (contrary to TM's assertions). If the
>NN were connected to the high kingship, or even to the larger Eoghanacht
>dynasty, there are other legitimate Chiefs which are empowered to support
>the continuation of the group.
Yet you were a defender of the MM's claim to be the only legitimate
grantor of this honor!
>
>> decide (a) whether he wants the NN to exist or not, if so (b) whether he
>> wants to make any appointments, if so (c) what appointments he wants to
>> make, etc.
>
>For reasons that should now appear obvious, the GO's credibility in such
>matters is now paper thin. I would much rather see the ratification of
>any new MacCarthy Mor (or any chief) by the Standing Council of Irish
>Chiefs. The GO should not enter into it, nor, I expect, will they wish
>to do so.
But supposing the chiefs take the view that the whole MM episode was a
gross embarassment and that they would rather not having anything to do
with giving titles, or granting orders or distinctions? What then?
Have the holders of the titles granted by the MM abandoned them? If not,
why not?
Guy Stair Sainty
Stair...@msn.com
www.ChivalricOrders.org
se...@maclochlainn.freeserve.co.uk
Patrick M. O'Shea <pos...@smumn.edu> wrote:
> I would agree if the NN were, in fact, a dynastic order specifically
of
> the house of MacCarthy Mor. When one examines the actual references,
the
> indication is that this is not so (contrary to TM's assertions). If
the
> NN were connected to the high kingship, or even to the larger
Eoghanacht
> dynasty, there are other legitimate Chiefs which are empowered to
support
> the continuation of the group.
If the Niadh Nask has had a continued existence over the centuries,
then how come it was so easily hijacked by T MacCarthy?
Surely the membership would have realised that something was wrong. Or
was there no membership at that time?
Does any current member of the Niadh Nask have a continuous family
history of membership?
Sean
Michael F McCartney
could be nearly any color - there is AFAIK no "default" color
intended where none is specified.
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
>Patrick Cracroft-Brennan wrote:
>
>> [snip]
>> >Patrick, I rather fear you are loosing the run of yourself (again...). Am I
>to
>> >take
>> >it that the Cardinal is an IRA man, and that Ireland's national day is
>nothing
>> >but a
>> >flag day? Only for the fact that you have somewhat of a track record for
>making
>> >"unfortunate" remarks, I would be very annoyed...
>> > - EJD
>> >
>>
>> So the buckets out collecting funds for Noraid at the St Patricks Day
>> Parade were just a figment of our imaginations?
>
Noraid is the organisation which collects funds for the IRA in the USA.
It is very well supported in Boston and other US cities with large
populations of Irish descent.
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
>In article <4+DHxKAjt4$3E...@londwill.demon.co.uk>,
> Patrick Cracroft-Brennan <herald...@www.kwtelecom.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> diploma from TM got a dud. IF the NN still exists (and there does
>> appear to be some real doubt whever it has survived to modern times or
>> is just a re-invention of TM) then any appointments made to it by TM are
>> null and void and any future appointments to it await on the pleasure of
>> the real MM, whoever he may be.
>
>the house of MacCarthy Mor. When one examines the actual references, the
>indication is that this is not so (contrary to TM's assertions). If the
>NN were connected to the high kingship, or even to the larger Eoghanacht
>dynasty, there are other legitimate Chiefs which are empowered to support
>the continuation of the group.
>
>>
>> to assert such membership is a bunch of Americans who have in effect
>> self-appointed themselves to an organisation they choose to call the NN.
>> They will lack all credibility (my previous post notwithstanding) if
>> they pursue the path you suggest.
>>
>> Having thought about it a bit further, surely the correct and honourable
>> thing for everyone who has received anything from TM to do is to just to
>> throw away the whole lot.....NN, titles, uniforms, the lot!.....and
>> await the decision of the GO as to who is the rightful Head of the
>> MacCarthys (aka the MacCarthy Mor). It will then be up to that person to
>> wants to make any appointments, if so (c) what appointments he wants to
>> make, etc.
>
>For reasons that should now appear obvious, the GO's credibility in such
>matters is now paper thin.
On the contrary.....the GO's credibility has vastly improved - they
reviewed the situation in light of fresh evidence, decided that things
were wrong and acted very quickly to rectify matters. This sort of
decisive action is exactly what we want to see from a national heraldic
authority.
> I would much rather see the ratification of
>any new MacCarthy Mor (or any chief) by the Standing Council of Irish
>Chiefs. The GO should not enter into it, nor, I expect, will they wish
>to do so.
Surely it is the credibility of the self-appointed Standing Council of
Irish Chiefs that is now at question. IMHO they are totally tainted by
association with TM.
>
>>
>> Once TM has been exposed as a fraud, for anyone to claim to be an
>> ongoing "officer of the NN" is ludicrous. How can he have been
>> appointed as an officer if the person making the appointment had no
>> right to make that appointment.
>>
>> I'm sorry to be so harsh....but there are times when you've got to face
>> facts.
>
>No apology necessary. This is a harsh time. Still, I believe that the
>NN will continue, and the matter of appropriate patronage will be
>addressed in due course.
>
>-PMOS
>
>
>--
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>www2.smumn.edu/facpages/~poshea
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
<eirikr...@home.com> writes
>se...@maclochlainn.freeserve.co.uk wrote:
>
>> The GO recognition of T MacCarthy as MacCarthy Mor is "null and void"
>> (Statement of GO August 1999). It is as if GO recognition were never
>> grounds. These same grounds would exclude T MacCarthy from succession
>> under the operation of a MacCarthy derbfine. T MacCarthy has no
>> legitimacy in the eyes of either the GO or the MacCarthy clan.
>>
>> then it curently exists in its pre-T MacCarthy state. If Gaelic
>> lordships can be sold by MacCarthy Mor, then all the lordships sold by
>> T MacCarthy remain with MacCarthy Mor, whoever that might be.
>>
>> there is no reason why he should.
>>
>> This doesn't preclude those members of T MacCarthy's Niadh Nask from
>> staying together to pursue laudable aims in the field of history,
>> including an investigation into the history of the true Niadh Nask.
>
>Niadh Nask...
Isn't that something you wear? oops...kaftan!
Bryan J. Maloney
se...@maclochlainn.freeserve.co.uk wrote:
> In article <37FF9411...@uccb.ns.ca>,
> Barry Gabriel <bgab...@uccb.ns.ca> wrote:
>
> > What's Noraid?
> >
> > BG
>
> A misguided US group which raises funds for the evil Irish Republican
> movement so that the communist/fascist/criminal (delete according to
> whim) godfathers of the IRA can deprive children and pregnant women of
> their loved ones.
>
> Of course, while Irish-Americans know nothing about Ireland, the
> British public are well informed on the subject and their country is
> admirably even handed in its dealings, bearing the White Mans Burden
> without a grumble.
EEEEVIL!
EEEEVIL!
You are so cruel, to try irony on this group.
Bryan J. Maloney
Cracroft-Brennan <herald...@www.kwtelecom.com> wrote:
> I wish I could agree with you. I remember when I first met Roger
> Sherman - a man I have the greatest personal respect for - and wondering
> how anyone like him could possibly be taken in by the legitimacy of the
> Irish title he was sporting. Everything that he told me about the MM
When one wants to believe in something enough, one is willing to overlook
a great deal.
Bryan J. Maloney
<Guy_m...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> But supposing the chiefs take the view that the whole MM episode was a
> gross embarassment and that they would rather not having anything to do
> with giving titles, or granting orders or distinctions? What then?
Then it might be a good idea for the NN to become the "Gaelic Ireland
Historical Society of the USA", I would say...
EJD
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan wrote:
> In article <37FF9411...@uccb.ns.ca>, Barry Gabriel
> <bgab...@uccb.ns.ca> writes
> >Patrick Cracroft-Brennan wrote:
> >
> >> [snip]
> >> >Patrick, I rather fear you are loosing the run of yourself (again...). Am I
> >to
> >> >take
> >> >it that the Cardinal is an IRA man, and that Ireland's national day is
> >nothing
> >> >but a
> >> >flag day? Only for the fact that you have somewhat of a track record for
> >making
> >> >"unfortunate" remarks, I would be very annoyed...
> >> > - EJD
> >> >
> >>
> >> So the buckets out collecting funds for Noraid at the St Patricks Day
> >> Parade were just a figment of our imaginations?
> >
> >What's Noraid?
>
> Noraid is the organisation which collects funds for the IRA in the USA.
> It is very well supported in Boston and other US cities with large
> populations of Irish descent.
>
Noraid is an officially registered charity. According to their web site (
http://inac.org/membership.html ) "The Irish Northern Aid Committee is an
American-based humanitarian organization formed in 1970 to alleviate the suffering
of the dependents of Irish Political Prisoners." Your donation is probably tax
deductable...
Francois R. Velde
>Contributors to this discussion group who first raised questions two
>years ago about Terence MacCarthy's operations will know the feeling.
>It is those who have been circulating material anonymously, leaking
>documents selectively and spreading slander who should have their
>characters and motivations called in question.
I must concur with what Sean Murphy writes, as one who raised doubts about
Terence MacCarthy 3 years ago on this newsgroup. Last year, I received a letter
from T MacC threatening me with suits for "criminal libel" because of letters
attributed to me by his minions where I slandered his private life. He may well
have made that up completely on his own, but I can't imagine he had any idea who
I was. One of his loyalists, presumably a reader of rec.heraldry, must have
made up that story. Clearly, some of them were not above lies and dirty tricks.
Patrick O'Shea assures us that all officers of the Niadh Nask are men of
integrity and honesty. Well, perhaps. Meanwhile, said officers' professed
intention to continue as the "real" Niadh Nask after having ditched the man who
invented it says a lot for their intellectual integrity. William Kautt's
pathetic arguments notwithstanding, any man with half an ounce of common sense
would put as much distance between him and MacCarthy's hoax as he could. Even
if scraps of evidence can be summoned for the use of that Gaelic phrase in
medieval times, the NN is an invention of MacCarthy, and it can't reject its
creator yet continue to live. That the same people create some kind of
association devoted to Galic studies seems laudable. But the trinkets and the
baubbles, the decorations and the mantles? It was hard enough to take that
stuff seriously, but now...
--
François Velde
ve...@nospam.org (replace by "heraldica")
Heraldry Site: http://www.heraldica.org/
Elias Granqvist
>Seriously, IMO copper & pink were bad ideas, just because they are
>relatively indistinct. Good armory is clear, distinctive armory -
>well at least that should be one of the criteria.
>On the other hand, a bit of experimentation isn't a bad thing, eh?
>Like any mutation, most will self-destruct in reasonably short
>order, & only the viable will survive. The history of heraldry
>has IM a strong Darwinian element...
I agree those new tinctures was a bad idea. It is going away from the
general rule of simplicity in heraldry, I think. Arms can be so much
varied anyway - look at all the new charges that have come wiht the
years: cogwheels, propellers, firearms, winged wheels etc., etc., and
all new partitions.
Elias Granqvist
http://www.users.wineasy.se/elias/heraldik.htm
se...@maclochlainn.freeserve.co.uk
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan <herald...@www.kwtelecom.com> wrote:
> Surely it is the credibility of the self-appointed Standing Council of
> Irish Chiefs that is now at question. IMHO they are totally tainted
> by association with TM.
I think that their apparent inaction to date in the MacCarthy case is
astounding. When are they going to develop a backbone?
Sean
se...@maclochlainn.freeserve.co.uk
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan <herald...@www.kwtelecom.com> wrote:
> Noraid is the organisation which collects funds for the IRA in the
USA.
> It is very well supported in Boston and other US cities with large
> populations of Irish descent.
What a neutral and measured answer! Congratulations Patrick.
Sean
Oglaigh Na hEireann
Tiocfaidh Ar La
Anton Sherwood
: (For those who miss the old version of PMOS' page on the MM,
: it's still accessible (for a limited time), in a cached version, at
: http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:34695508&dq=cache:www2.smumn.edu/munster/mccm.html
: Those pictures will be collectors' items soon!)
Okay, I've duly archived it. ;)
I must not have seen the portrait before; until now I had a mental
image that probably belongs to "Prince Michael of Albany." As fate
would have it, The MacCarthy Maybe looks rather like someone I knew,
who calls himself The Emperor!
Michael F McCartney
anything to recommend it - it is distinctive & not at all likely
to be confused with other colors.
kur...@geocities.com
Right on target, again. Indeed, in this respect the Niadh Nask seems
to have taken (yet another) page from the handbook on self-styled
"orders". Especially, the parallel to Saint Lazarus and some of the
many self-styled Orders of Saint John is striking: Whenever one
patron/protector/grand master (usually a self-styled prince himself) is
discarded, another one is picked and the history is re-written.
Suddenly, the "order" no longer is based in one claim of "fons", but
another.
To see the same happen with the NN, after all that has happened, and to
note the apparent unwillingness by its "officers" to admit that the
whole NN was all a construct of the fantasies of Terence MacCarthy is
simply sad. I seriously hope that the decent and intelligent people,
of which there are some among the NN, will stop embarrasing themselves
anymore than they already have.
Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard
seanj...@my-deja.com
Patrick M. O'Shea <pos...@smumn.edu> wrote:
>Indeed, the very behavior of GO officials lent considerable
> weight to Terence McCarthy's argument that he was simply the victim
of a
> political 'smear campaign.' Under the circumstances, the GO
essentially
> guaranteed that supporters of Terence McCarthy would dismiss out of
hand
> their assertions (including the withdrawal of recognition).
>
> This does not make a claim to a chiefship based on flimsy or contrived
> evidence in any way acceptable, but it does offer some explanation of
why
> Terence's supporters, particularly in America (i.e., isolated from
> certain sources of information) were willing to accept Terence's word
> over that of the GO. In effect, by attempting to engineer
the 'downfall'
> of Terence McCarthy, persons affiliated with the GO actually
galvanized
> his support in North America, and perpetuated the problem.
While not in any way relieving Terence MacCarthy and his followers of
their prime responsibility for the hurt and damage this whole affair
has caused, I would have to record agreement with Patrick O'Shea's
statement. As the premier Irish genealogical and heraldic authority,
the Genealogical Office had a responsibility to act swiftly and openly
in correcting the error of recognising Terence MacCarthy as Chief of
His Name. Instead it delayed for years, eventually falling in with one
of the "parallel investigations" to which I referred earlier. This
particular investigation was extremely partial, as its main aim was to
replace Terence MacCarthy with a rival candidate, and it clearly had
the benefit of GO insider information. The group involved did circulate
materials anonymously, and if its members are lurking on rec.heraldry,
I call upon them to come out of the shadows and justify themselves if
they can. The GO did not act decisively to strip MacCarthy of
recognition until it was pushed by myself and the Sunday Times (another
parallel investigation, but conducted openly). During the years in
which the problem had been allowed to fester, many more decent people
had been ensnared in MacCarthy's operations, secure in the knowledge
that his Chiefship and right to sell titles had been validated by a
patent and letters of an official of the Irish Republic, namely, Chief
Herald Donal Begley.
Allegations concerning my motivations notwithstanding, my investigation
was professional and objective, yet was met with refusal of cooperation
and obstruction on the part of the Genealogical Office, necessitating
appeals to the Ombudsman/Freedom of Information Commissioner. As a
result of FOI applications by myself and others, the MacCarthy Mór
files in the Genealogical Office are due to be opened in the next week
or so, and those of us who were not deemed worthy of receiving leaked
documents directly should now be able to anatomise the affair in more
detail. The files on Maguire of Fermanagh and other post-1990 Chiefs
are still closed, but at the risk of being accused of pursuing a
vendetta, I am also putting in Freedom of Information applications to
view these.
What of the Niadh Nask? It is a fake order invented by a fake Chief,
and in my opinion it should simply be wound up. Of course there is no
reason why those of its members who wish to continue to associate
should not found a new but hopefully less fantasy-bound
cultural/charitable foundation. In conclusion, let me be clear about
one point, I value the interest of Irish-Americans in the 'auld sod',
and think that in the sphere of genealogy in particular, they have been
ill-served by the Irish government and its agencies.
Sean Murphy
Centre for Irish Genealogical and Local Studies
http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/chiefs/
Ld. W. Baldwin,MD-S
> Right on target, again. Indeed, in this respect the Niadh Nask seems
> to have taken (yet another) page from the handbook on self-styled
> "orders". Especially, the parallel to Saint Lazarus and some of the
> many self-styled Orders of Saint John is striking: Whenever one
> patron/protector/grand master (usually a self-styled prince himself) is
> discarded, another one is picked and the history is re-written.
> Suddenly, the "order" no longer is based in one claim of "fons", but
> another.
They should know that the VOStJ is the only order to have ever
successfully pulled this off...;)
dwi...@my-deja.com
kur...@geocities.com wrote:
In article <u7YCOObwxpfHfj...@4ax.com>,
velde@heraldica_nospam.org wrote:
> > Patrick O'Shea assures us that all officers of the Niadh
> > Nask are men of integrity and honesty. Well, perhaps.
> > Meanwhile, said officers' professed intention to continue
> > as the "real" Niadh Nask after having ditched the man who
> > invented it says a lot for their intellectual integrity.
I must respectfully disagree -- there are many considerations here, not
just those of the validity of the creation of the organization. Should
we make the same accusations (as others have already mentioned) against
the VSOJ? They were a creation, and yet are now considered quite
acceptable by the establishment.
I have to accept that the issues of registration in various countries,
the costs associated with the legal paperwork for non-profit status in
the USA and elsewhere, along with the name recognition outside the
current scandals, causes a strong desire to maintain continuity,
whatever that really is.
> > William Kautt's pathetic arguments notwithstanding, any man
> > with half an ounce of common sense would put as much distance
> > between him and MacCarthy's hoax as he could.
After reading Guy Sainty's work, I would expect people to be of the mind
that "any man with half an ounce of common sense would put as much
distance between him and any feudal system of titles, baubles, and
chivalry as he could."
Is there any place for such in this modern world? Why would a person
seek to join ANY chivalric body? If you want to do good in the world,
why go beyond your local religious groups, charities, and associations?
Why make the leap into a chivalric body? I have a theory here, and it
isn't very pretty.
I would imagine that there exists a benign form of ordenshunger (sp?),
which affects those that want to do good and at the same time get a pat
on the back, a pin on the lapel, or a collar for the neck. What in a
man wants to be a knight, instead of a knight of columbus? What makes
him want to be a Lord of the Manor instead of a Lion? What causes him
to pay thousands of pounds for his own arms instead of getting a banner
of "Your Family Arms Here"? These are all forms of recognition, and
attempts to either climb out, avoid, or otherwise distance oneself from
the 'commoners.' Is this a bad thing in the new order? Isn't it a sin
to want to be an individual instead of one of the masses?
I have long wanted to found a self-styled order. I have to call it this
because no one wants to accept that I am royalty. The fact that I am
one of the sons of God (whom I find to be pretty royal even on his off
days) should entitle to me to make up whatever I want, right? Not in
this world, it would seem. So, I would be forced to create a
self-styled order. *grin* Maybe I should use some angels as my
supporters....
Would this new Order of Chivalry be accepted by the establishment?
Probably not. Could it do good works? Oh, most definately. Could it
call itself a religious and military order? If it was religious and
military, sure. Hell, I'd be glad to teach sword skills to theologians
any day. Will this make it any more palatable? Probably not.
And, what happens if I successfully petition and gain patronage from the
Emperor of Japan, or the Prince of Monaco, or with the right luck, Her
Majesty? What then? Am I real? Did I go from being self-styled to
something more noble? Or has the time past for such inventions, good
intentioned or otherwise?
I feel that the right thing for the NN to do is to identify their goals
in the move to preserve gaelic history, and to make sure that they never
forget the past, recording for posterity that the creation of the
organization came with a cloud of trouble. This will keep the NN
vigilant against additional issues.
> > But the trinkets and the baubbles, the decorations and
> > the mantles? It was hard enough to take that
> > stuff seriously, but now...
There are no mantles that I've seen, save that for TMacC. He will
probably not be willing to part with it, so I don't expect to see any
others pop out of the woodwork. However, there should be insignia for
any association, and the cost of reworking and casting and having the
entire membership get something new is a bit much. Preservation of the
baubles isn't a terrible thing, if they are worn with the understanding
of what they mean.
I have to agree, in my studies of what makes something an Order of
Chivalry, versus a Chivalric Body, versus a Nobilary Body, that there
needs to be some real consideration paid to the rules of the game. I
have no problems with the NN becoming an Order, as soon as they write
the Rules they will live by. I have no trouble with the chivalric
ideals being preserved, so long as people get past the Victorian swoon
to the real purpose of chivalry. And, I fully support the NN desire to
find a new direction, but all due care should be taken to avoid future
issues like those that have gone before.
> Whenever one patron/protector/grand master (usually a self-styled
> prince himself) is discarded, another one is picked and the
> history is re-written.
I would hope that the history will be merely amended. One must take
careful pains to avoid the seeming of impropriety, and I would hope that
the integrity of the individuals acting as officers of the NN would take
that into consideration. However, selecting a new leader is absolutely
necessary if the previous one has done something abhorrent to the
existing membership, right?
> Suddenly, the "order" no longer is based in one claim of "fons", but
> another.
Unfortunately we can't all be Sovereign in our own right, or associated
with the RCC and the eternal sovereignity of the Pope. *grin* The NN
desire for nobility in the patronage isn't foul, but merely an attempt
to continue in that noble tradition. Again, the due selection of a
valid noble to act as patron would be worthy, and sensible. Finding
that person, however, may prove more difficult. And, what happens if
they are never found? Does this invalidate the work of the
organization?
> and to
> note the apparent unwillingness by its "officers" to admit that the
> whole NN was all a construct of the fantasies of Terence MacCarthy is
> simply sad.
The NN predated TMacC. It may also have died out before him. I don't
believe that it was his construction, but merely his tool to gaining a
loyal support base. His error, just like the error of the inner-city
girl who gets pregnant in order to bring forth someone who will give her
love and support, is that eventually it grows up and stands on its own,
and may not be as loyal as desired.
I applaud the desire of the NN to stand up and be empowered on its own.
I wish it the best of luck as it goes forward, whichever cardinal
direction forward is. I hope that the good works it has undertaken will
continue, and that it strives to correct the historical inaccuracies
(should they exist -- I'm no historian to judge) of the previous
leadership.
-=-=-=-=-
Dwivian is a Knight by virtue of wearing lots of metal and riding a
horse simultaneously.
Patrick M. O'Shea
Right on target, again. Indeed, in this respect the Niadh Nask seems
> to have taken (yet another) page from the handbook on self-styled
> "orders". Especially, the parallel to Saint Lazarus and some of the
> many self-styled Orders of Saint John is striking: Whenever one
> patron/protector/grand master (usually a self-styled prince himself)
is
> discarded, another one is picked and the history is re-written.
> Suddenly, the "order" no longer is based in one claim of "fons", but
> another.
>
> To see the same happen with the NN, after all that has happened, and
to
> note the apparent unwillingness by its "officers" to admit that the
> whole NN was all a construct of the fantasies of Terence MacCarthy is
> simply sad. I seriously hope that the decent and intelligent people,
> of which there are some among the NN, will stop embarrasing themselves
> anymore than they already have.
Peter, Francois, Guy, Patrick & others,
I hope you can appreciate the very serious blow all of this has been to
members of the Niadh Nask. Much is yet to be discussed and evaluated,
and absolutely no potential outcome will be excluded. However, I
believe I owe it to the members of the NN to discuss matters within the
organization first. It is improper for me (or any other member) to use
a public forum for the gradual development of a position or sounding
board for any decisions.
Privately, I am willing to share my personal views with those who wish
to know them, but I cannot discuss the future of an entire organization
on the Internet in the absence of any agreed course or policy. I would
also ask that any individual who discusses the matter with me privately
keep such conversations or correspondence confidential. This is simply
a matter of courtesy to all members of the NN, who have been personally
wounded in more ways than one by the Terence McCarthy affair.
All I can say publicly is that there is, in my opinion (and in the
opinion of many chiefs, historians, and interested amateurs), a need for
an organization which supports the ancient Gaelic nobility, and seeks to
preserve its history. Beyond this, there is much debate and study ahead
for all who have such interests.
Patrick O'Shea
pos...@smumn.edu
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
www2.smumn.edu/facpages/~poshea
KauttWH
>From: Francois R. Velde
> William Kautt's
>pathetic arguments notwithstanding, any man with half an ounce of common
>sense
Francois, I don't think I ever resorted to personal attacks. I think you
should endeavor to state your case without them. As for my "pathetic"
arguments, I stated that they were only ideas, therefor not fully formed or
articulated--do you attack everyone or do you just reserve your venom for those
who've never done you any harm? I defy you to find one instance where I have
done so.
Kautt
EJD
seanj...@my-deja.com wrote:
> During the years in
> which the problem had been allowed to fester, many more decent people
> had been ensnared in MacCarthy's operations, secure in the knowledge
> that his Chiefship and right to sell titles had been validated by a
> patent and letters of an official of the Irish Republic, namely, Chief
> Herald Donal Begley.
>
>
Sean,
Having followed the MacCarthy Mor saga for several years now, there
would seem to be at least two plausible interpretations for the laxity of
the Genealogical Office in originally recognizing Terence MacCarthy. The
first, charitable, view is that good sense was abandoned, and slipshod
standards became the norm. Some of your posts seem to indicate that you may
be in agreement with such an interpretation - one can imagine a sleepy,
backwater office with little to do becoming progressively more and more
trusting of what its clients claimed until eventually processes took on the
character of "rubber stamping".
However, the thought has crossed my mind that underhand dealing may also be
a possibility. As the ongoing Irish Tribunals of investigation have all too
painfully shown the 1980's were a period of unprecedented corruption in
Irish public life and in the public service. While low standards may be
invoked to excuse the recognition of T. MacCarthy's fraudulent genealogy, it
is VERY hard to explain on any reasonable basis the letter sent by the then
Chief Herald which essentially supported MacCarthy's claim to be in a
position to grant titles. Further, money was involved - very considerable
sums of money -, and we now know that T. MacCarthy engaged in fraud in order
to obtain that money. In such circumstances it would not be too surprising
if Mr MacCarthy had greased some wheels in order to obtain his desired
recognition and letters of comfort. Has anyone looked at this? In fact, has
anyone informed the Gardai (the police) of Mr MacCarthy's frauds? If I were
a member of the NN, I would certainly have called the Garda by now.....
- Edward
Lorne Gray
: they can. The GO did not act decisively to strip MacCarthy of
: recognition until it was pushed by myself and the Sunday Times (another
: which the problem had been allowed to fester, many more decent people
: had been ensnared in MacCarthy's operations, secure in the knowledge
: that his Chiefship and right to sell titles had been validated by a
: patent and letters of an official of the Irish Republic, namely, Chief
: Herald Donal Begley.
I know next to nothing about all this so forgive me, but I an intrigued by
this power to grant titles. Did the GO or CH specifically recognize
that T. MacCarthy had the right to grant titles? Is this a traditional
right of an Irish Chief? Are these titles along the lines of a Scottish
Lairdship? The whole thing mystifies me. I have always been leery when
Heraldry gets too close to becoming the selling of social status. This
case seems to bear out my fears.
Louis Epstein
: In article <7tlhkc$2s1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
: seanj...@my-deja.com wrote:
: > Good to see that Patrick O'Shea has again found
: > his tongue. However, despite renouncing Terence
: > MacCarthy, he wishes to maintain his constructs,
: > particularly the Niadh Nask, confirming my point
: > about realignment of forces as opposed to true
: > contrition. My own abiding memory of Dr O'Shea's
: > role in all this is his reply to my protest
: > against the 'G2 Branch' Galloglas surveillance
: > threat against myself and others, which was
: > linked to his Eoghanacht Dynasty site: 'Having
: > read the statement, I see nothing indicating
: > intended harassment'. Will there be a counterpart
: > to the 'G2 Branch' under the New Order?
:
: Mr. Murphy,
:
: As this is likely to become tedious to the general readers, I shall make
: this my last public reply to your remarks. Should you wish to address
: additional comments to me, you may do so privately, but of course this
: will deprive you of your place in the center ring.
:
: It is unclear why you perceive some immense and sinister conspiracy
: involving the Genealogical Office, the Niadh Nask, and, it would seem,
: all heralds, persons holding any titles of nobility, and chivalric
: orders. If you find such things as distasteful as your comments imply,
: it might be far more agreeable for you to simply avoid reading
: rec.heraldry and similar newsgroups.
:
: There is no "realignment of forces" intended. Quite simply, the officers
: of the Niadh Nask have stated to the entire membership (as of today) that
: the pedigree advanced by Terence McCarthy is not credible. The
: organization is examining the statements and research T.McC. has made
: concerning the history of the NN, and we are finding that an increasing
: number of these are not based on solid scholarship. While the NN has
: existed in the past (as referenced by Keating and other writers), it will
: be some time before the mythology can be untangled from true historical
: references, and the exact historical nature of the NN can be adequately
: described. I readily admit that there is much to be done on this front.
:
: With that said, the Niadh Nask, as a group of people with a genuine
: interest in the old Gaelic nobility, has great potential to support the
: activities of the legitimate Chiefs of the Name. There is a great deal
: of research which might be supported by means of grants to credible and
: credentialed scholars. It is my hope that the Niadh Nask may be
: harnessed to this end, once the process of stripping away mythology has
: taken place - a process which will, no doubt, be painful for some.
:
: There will be no "New Order." The Niadh Nask will either reform and
: become an organization which supports the Gaelic nobility in a meaningful
: way, or it will cease to exist. Its precise nature, and any form of
: patronage from the various legitimate Chiefs, are matters which are yet
: to be determined. Having known many members of the NN for years, I am
: willing to trust in their honor, and have resolved to make what efforts I
: can to make the NN a positive means of support for the institution of
: Gaelic Irish Chiefship in general, and as a forum for discussion of
: Ireland's Gaelic past.
:
: If you find the notion of a highly stratified, inegalitarian, and
: aristocratic Gaelic Ireland repugnant, I am sorry.
Some of us find attachment to this stratified monarchical history
the sine qua non of LEGITIMATE Irish nationalism,and denounce
egalitarianism and republicanism as invaders unworthy of the name.
: The reality of this
: history cannot be changed, although it seems to be quite readily ignored
: in some circles. Be that as it may, there are those who have a genuine
: interest in discovering more about that past, and in preserving what
: fragmentary remnants yet survive. The Niadh Nask is an existing
: organization which counts among its members a great many people with such
: interests.
:
: For most members of the Niadh Nask, the common interest in Gaelic Ireland
: has been the important tie binding us. While it may be enjoyable to
: dress up and wear insignia of whatever sort, a few ounces of metal on
: one's chest is not sufficient inducement for the people I know to abandon
: all reason. Your suggestion that the Niadh Nask consists essentially of
: wide-eyed Americans salivating at the prospect of shiny trinkets is not
: only puerile and offensive, but also entirely inaccurate.
:
: Yet, your simplistic assertions notwithstanding, many members of the
: Niadh Nask were drawn in by a vision of Gaelic Ireland that did not cower
: in the face of the Norman 'invasion,' and which celebrated the Gaelic
: resistance against English rule for nearly 600 years. The vision of a
: sophisticated and truly regal sense of Irish kingship remains appealing,
: and serious study of the Gaelic Irish kingdoms continues to bring to
: light the extent of the development of court life, cultural exchange, and
: the export of monastics to the Continent in the context of 12th and 13th-
: century Ireland. The picture emerging is far different from the concept
: of an entire society of peasant farmers existing in a form of Gaelic
: 'proto-communism.'
:
: Lastly, it is particularly disagreeable that you should gain notariety as
: a 'professional genealogist' from the present sad situation. That you
: are willing to advance your own reputation in such a way is
: incomprehensible, but perhaps provides some explanation for your
: exclusion from the Genealogical Office's list of contract genealogists.
: Your implicit assertion that the material you have presented came as a
: result of your own original research and insights has already been
: countered privately. Perhaps it is time for you to embrace the adage,
: 'vir sapit qui pauca loquitur.'
:
:
: Sincerely,
:
: Patrick O'Shea
Mr. Murphy has certainly been of service in exposing fraud.
If he does not recognize the enormous worth of LEGITIMATE claims of
descent from Irish royalty,it is most unfortunate.
Louis Epstein
: In article <7to1fl$nlc$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Mike Dwyer <liongules@my-
: deja.com> writes
: >In article <tgYiGIAO42$3E...@londwill.demon.co.uk>,
: > Patrick Cracroft-Brennan <herald...@www.kwtelecom.com> wrote:
: >> In article <7tnf6d$bh3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Mike Dwyer <liongules@my-
: >> deja.com> writes
: >> >
: >> I wish I could agree with you. I remember when I first met Roger
: >> Sherman - a man I have the greatest personal respect for - and
: >wondering
: >> how anyone like him could possibly be taken in by the legitimacy of
: >the
: >> screamed at me that this was an out and out fraud...but what on earth
: >do
: >> you say to a man who has just parted with several thousand dollars for
: >> his shiny new title?
: >
: >Unfortunately, not everyone is as perceptive as you.
: >Nothing "screamed" at me about anything in the whole TM affair.
: >
: >>
: >> Hmm.....I find this mindset slightly worrying. Why accept what others
: >> say? Surely you can do some research and eventually come up with your
: >> own decision on the rights and wrongs of TM's case. You originally
: >> accepted TM as MM by blindly accepting what others said...now you're
: >> compounding your mistake my accepting without question when they say
: >>he is not the MM. C'mon man.....think for yourself. This isn't the
: >>army were you have to accept what your superior officers see...it's
: >>civvy street, where you think for yourself.
: >>
: >I'm afraid I don't go about questioning everything I see and hear in
: >life. Like the majority of people, when I read something or am told
: >something, I tend to accept it as fact unless it flies in the face of
: >something else that I aready know. I'm sorry if it worries you, but
: >I've never claimed to be perfect. If you, or Guy Stair Sainty, or
: >Francois Velde, tell me something concerning a heraldic matter, because
: >I have come to respect your expertise in the field of heraldry, I
: >accept it, I don't go and do research.....I just accept it. Perhaps
: >that's not right, but it's just the way I am.
:
: OK....if one of us tells you something about heraldry, then hopefully
: its not inconsistent with what you already know about heraldry so you
: you're on a pretty safe bet to go along with what we say. Heraldry is a
: science, full of rules and laws and factual things. As far as I am
: aware no-one makes anything up, comes along one day and says "Hey guys!
: Look, here's a third metal. I know you've never heard of it but beleive
: me, it really exists.".
:
: But the claims of TM are something different indeed.
:
: Lets look at just one of these.....
:
: His claim to be "Prince of Desmond" (and by this not just an empty
: style, like, sau "Prince of Thomomnd" used by the head of the O'Brien
: family, but claims that just fall a tad short of cliaming semi-regal
: status)......
:
: Tell me...excluding holders of foreign titles, how many other Brits (in
: the widest sense) do you find tramping round England claimning to be,
: say, Prince of Swaledale...or round Scotland claiming to be, say, Prince
: of Fife? The answer in: NONE. In the UK and Ireland we just don't
: have princely titles outside the Royal Family. In England you'd need to
: go back to the Heptarchy of pre-Conquest times, in Scotland to the 11th
: century and in Wales to about the 14th century before you got to any
: princely titles outside the Royal Family. In Ireland things were
: slightly different, but any native titles ceased by the end of the 16th
: century.
But can the heirship to them cease??
Surely,in the absence of a monarchy in any part of Ireland,
a monarchist must look to them as de jure leaders.
: So, you come across this Irish guy claiming to be a Prince, disposing of
: titles and handing out his house "order"...even forming a personal
: bodyguard. Now doesn't this strike you as a tad odd? Even a
: rudimentary knowledge of British history should tell you that this is
: totally at odds with reality.
:
: And "reality" is really what we're talking about. If you know anything
: about Orders of Chivalry, you know that it is an absolute minefield,
: with fraudsters trying to sell you this Order or that Order. You know
: that you ought to check things out....look things up in a standard
: reference work...put it past with people who know about these things.
: But what happens? A nice neck cross or title is dangled in front of
: you, and "Poof!", out the window goes any sense of reality. How else
: can you explain how people could possibly beleive that an Irish "prince"
: could make them "Lord of This" or "Lord of That", how else can you
: explain how people could possibly beleive that the heir to the
: Hohenstauffens could suddenly reappear after centuries? But they do.
: It's sad, but they really do.
:
: Let's not get too upset over this...what has happened has
: happened....let's look to the future, slightly wiser if slightly poorer
: in our pockets!
Louis Epstein
:
: > What's Noraid?
: >
: > BG
:
: A misguided US group which raises funds for the evil Irish Republican
: movement so that the communist/fascist/criminal (delete according to
: whim) godfathers of the IRA can deprive children and pregnant women of
: their loved ones.
:
: Of course, while Irish-Americans know nothing about Ireland, the
: British public are well informed on the subject and their country is
: admirably even handed in its dealings, bearing the White Mans Burden
: without a grumble.
: And God is an Englishman.
Quite so...
: Sean
Louis Epstein
: In article <7tra74$qs3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Patrick M. O'Shea
: <pos...@smumn.edu> writes
: >In article <4+DHxKAjt4$3E...@londwill.demon.co.uk>,
: > Patrick Cracroft-Brennan <herald...@www.kwtelecom.com> wrote:
: >
: >>
: >> But the problem here, Patrick, is that you, me and anyone else who got a
: Surely it is the credibility of the self-appointed Standing Council of
: Irish Chiefs that is now at question. IMHO they are totally tainted by
: association with TM.
Being an agency of a republican regime has to taint the GO's credentials
as an arbiter of matters monarchical.The SCOIC may be shaky,but there
should be an independent body that does not answer to the Republic.
: >
: >>
: >> Once TM has been exposed as a fraud, for anyone to claim to be an
Louis Epstein
: In article <7tr86c$pjh$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
:
: EEEEVIL!
:
: You are so cruel, to try irony on this group.
Come now,he was either serious or not understanding that he spoke
wisely...
Louis Epstein
:
:
: > <bgab...@uccb.ns.ca> writes
: > >Patrick Cracroft-Brennan wrote:
: > >
: > >> [snip]
: > >> >Patrick, I rather fear you are loosing the run of yourself (again...). Am I
: > >to
: > >> >take
: > >> >it that the Cardinal is an IRA man, and that Ireland's national day is
: > >nothing
: > >> >but a
: > >> >flag day? Only for the fact that you have somewhat of a track record for
: > >making
: > >> >"unfortunate" remarks, I would be very annoyed...
: > >> > - EJD
: > >> >
: > >>
: > >> So the buckets out collecting funds for Noraid at the St Patricks Day
: > >> Parade were just a figment of our imaginations?
: > >
: > >What's Noraid?
: > Noraid is the organisation which collects funds for the IRA in the USA.
: > It is very well supported in Boston and other US cities with large
: > populations of Irish descent.
:
: Noraid is an officially registered charity. According to their web site (
: http://inac.org/membership.html ) "The Irish Northern Aid Committee is an
: American-based humanitarian organization formed in 1970 to alleviate the suffering
: of the dependents of Irish Political Prisoners." Your donation is probably tax
: deductable...
However,its actions are directed toward supporting families in NI with
members "on active service" with the unspeakable IRA...
Louis Epstein
: In article <7tr82a$pan$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
: Patrick M. O'Shea <pos...@smumn.edu> wrote:
:
: >Indeed, the very behavior of GO officials lent considerable weight
: >to Terence McCarthy's argument that he was simply the victim of a
: > political 'smear campaign.' Under the circumstances, the GO essentially
: > guaranteed that supporters of Terence McCarthy would dismiss out of hand
: > their assertions (including the withdrawal of recognition).
: >
: > This does not make a claim to a chiefship based on flimsy or contrived
: > evidence in any way acceptable, but it does offer some explanation of why
: > certain sources of information) were willing to accept Terence's word
: > over that of the GO. In effect, by attempting to engineer the
: > 'downfall' of Terence McCarthy, persons affiliated with the GO actually
: > galvanized his support in North America, and perpetuated the problem.
:
:
: While not in any way relieving Terence MacCarthy and his followers of
: their prime responsibility for the hurt and damage this whole affair
: has caused, I would have to record agreement with Patrick O'Shea's
: statement. As the premier Irish genealogical and heraldic authority,
: the Genealogical Office had a responsibility to act swiftly and openly
: in correcting the error of recognising Terence MacCarthy as Chief of
: His Name. Instead it delayed for years, eventually falling in with one
: of the "parallel investigations" to which I referred earlier. This
: particular investigation was extremely partial, as its main aim was to
: replace Terence MacCarthy with a rival candidate, and it clearly had
: the benefit of GO insider information. The group involved did circulate
: materials anonymously, and if its members are lurking on rec.heraldry,
: I call upon them to come out of the shadows and justify themselves if
: recognition until it was pushed by myself and the Sunday Times (another
: parallel investigation, but conducted openly). During the years in
: which the problem had been allowed to fester, many more decent people
: had been ensnared in MacCarthy's operations, secure in the knowledge
: that his Chiefship and right to sell titles had been validated by a
: patent and letters of an official of the Irish Republic, namely, Chief
: Herald Donal Begley.
Do remember that to some of us,while fraud is ever to be fought,
a republic's imprimatur is essentially worthless in determining
the legitimacy of an inheritor of the legitimate(defined as hereditary)
authority the republic usurps.Truth is the important cause here,
not endorsement by a government which ought not to exist.
: Allegations concerning my motivations notwithstanding, my investigation
: was professional and objective, yet was met with refusal of cooperation
: and obstruction on the part of the Genealogical Office, necessitating
: appeals to the Ombudsman/Freedom of Information Commissioner. As a
: result of FOI applications by myself and others, the MacCarthy Mór
: files in the Genealogical Office are due to be opened in the next week
: or so, and those of us who were not deemed worthy of receiving leaked
: documents directly should now be able to anatomise the affair in more
: detail. The files on Maguire of Fermanagh and other post-1990 Chiefs
: are still closed, but at the risk of being accused of pursuing a
: vendetta, I am also putting in Freedom of Information applications to
: view these.
:
: What of the Niadh Nask? It is a fake order invented by a fake Chief,
: and in my opinion it should simply be wound up. Of course there is no
: reason why those of its members who wish to continue to associate
: should not found a new but hopefully less fantasy-bound
: cultural/charitable foundation. In conclusion, let me be clear about
: one point, I value the interest of Irish-Americans in the 'auld sod',
: and think that in the sphere of genealogy in particular, they have been
: ill-served by the Irish government and its agencies.
They need someone honest to look to.
Louis Epstein
: In article <7tv1rh$fvb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Because feudal systems of titles,baubles,and chivalry are far superior
to the "modern world" way of doing things.As the motto of the Most
Distinguished Order of Saint Michael and Saint George puts it,
Auspicium Melioris Aevi...."Token of a Better Age".
: I have a theory here, and it
: isn't very pretty.
:
: I would imagine that there exists a benign form of ordenshunger (sp?),
: which affects those that want to do good and at the same time get a pat
: on the back, a pin on the lapel, or a collar for the neck. What in a
: man wants to be a knight, instead of a knight of columbus? What makes
: him want to be a Lord of the Manor instead of a Lion? What causes him
: to pay thousands of pounds for his own arms instead of getting a banner
: of "Your Family Arms Here"? These are all forms of recognition, and
: attempts to either climb out, avoid, or otherwise distance oneself from
: the 'commoners.' Is this a bad thing in the new order? Isn't it a sin
: to want to be an individual instead of one of the masses?
Only to a socialist.
: I have long wanted to found a self-styled order. I have to call it this
: because no one wants to accept that I am royalty. The fact that I am
: one of the sons of God (whom I find to be pretty royal even on his off
: days) should entitle to me to make up whatever I want, right? Not in
: this world, it would seem. So, I would be forced to create a
: self-styled order. *grin* Maybe I should use some angels as my
: supporters....
:
: Would this new Order of Chivalry be accepted by the establishment?
: Probably not. Could it do good works? Oh, most definately. Could it
: call itself a religious and military order? If it was religious and
: military, sure. Hell, I'd be glad to teach sword skills to theologians
: any day. Will this make it any more palatable? Probably not.
:
: And, what happens if I successfully petition and gain patronage from the
: Emperor of Japan, or the Prince of Monaco, or with the right luck, Her
: Majesty? What then? Am I real? Did I go from being self-styled to
: something more noble? Or has the time past for such inventions, good
: intentioned or otherwise?
No...if they have ever had worth,it is because their time can NEVER pass.
: I feel that the right thing for the NN to do is to identify their goals
Francois R. Velde
>All I can say publicly is that there is, in my opinion (and in the
>opinion of many chiefs, historians, and interested amateurs), a need for
>an organization which supports the ancient Gaelic nobility, and seeks to
>preserve its history.
"Supporting the ancient Gaelic nobility"? I don't know what that means. If it
means finding a way to grant each other titles of counts and barons, then
clearly the lesson of the MacCarthy fiasco hasn't sunk in yet.
I thought the whole matter would have been put to rest, a sharp stake through
its heart. But, like Peter, I have doubts. Clearly, in the eyes of some, the
only problem was that someone with the wrong qualifications was hired to play
the part of the MacCarthy Mor, and everything can be set right with a proper
replacement. In fact, Kautt even wants to believe that we can all pretend
nothing happened. It's as if the NN were merely firing its CEO. Which suggests
that, if a new CEO is found, we can expect more nonsense from NN, Inc. on this
newsgroup.
Let's get it straight. Terence MacCarthy's problem is not that he had the wrong
pedigree. That's how he was exposed beyond the shadow of a doubt, like Al
Capone was jailed for tax evasion. But the wrong pedigree is only a part of the
fraud.
You guys have spent so much time arguing against primogeniture to select chiefs
that you are painted in a corner. TMM's "links in a golden chain" were tinsel:
there hasn't been a derbfhine since 1596, there is no pact of 1905, there is no
continuity back to Donal IX in any shape or form. The only continuity is with
the lunatic Pol MacCarthy in the 1890s (who provided your former liege with much
of his imagery). The "Genealogie de la Maison Serenissime" is a fake. The
painting of Donal IX with his chain is a fake. The concept of the NN as an
order of non-whatever is a sham. The concept of a clan chief granting titles is
a sham. The spiked crown in that glass-case in Cashel is a theater prop. Your
parchments are worthless. If you think any of this will survive Terence
MacCarthy, you still haven't understood how much you've been taken in.
Michael F McCartney
pantheon...
Michael F McCartney
on-topic; I was browsing in Barnes & Noble (bookstore) the other
night & found a "coffee table book" on classical warfare (i.e.
Greek & Roman periods). One of the illustrations was of a celtic
charioteer of Julius C's time, blue paint & all, bearing a large,
roughly ovel shield painted white and decorated with - are you
seated? - a stag trippant gules...Gosh, maybe this NN business is
way older than we ever thought!!
(I did check the credits - the artist wasn't a MacCarthy...)