Angel 4/4 Dan T's comments - i liked the episode
Dan Tropea
inconsistancies though.
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Lets go through the inconsistancies:
1) When Kate's father was being attacked we saw Angel could not enter
his apartment and was blocked by some field.
Tonight he dove right into Rebecca's house. Anyone else see the
inconsistancy.
2) Ok the mirror part is good but when they went to the premiere photos
were taken and if i understand vampirism vampires do not appear in
photos. Won't a few issues be raised?
3) Rebecca looked familiar. What else has she been in? She also was kind
of cute.
4) Wesley is starting to be a bit stronger willed and a better fighter
then before. He is still played for laughs though but Angel had the best
line when watching Cordy's performance "i thought eternity was long".
5)Wesley and Cordy. Please keep the brother/sister relationship going. I
think its rather refreshing then the "will they/won't they/sexual
entendres".
6) Ok Happy pills can make Angel into Angelus. Interesting. Can drugs
really affect vampires? They are just animated dead without real body
functions.
7) Angelus. I wouldn't mind seeing him more often. Is it me or does
Boreanz seem to enjoy playing as Angelus. He like most villians tend to
talk to much allowing their victims time to make a counter attack.
8) Anyone get the feeling that Cordy wil have that water anointed now?
9) Angel doesn't watch tv? Interesting. I would think that Angel like
most vamps would love tv since it lets them see the sun safely. I recall
how Louis in Interview with The Vampire loved going to movies since he
could see the sun and its affects safely. I thought this was a common
trait of vampires although we never really see tvs on Buffy and Angel.
Overall a good episode. Not great but a god standalone episode. On par
with Buffy tonight.
The Demented Furby
"Dan Tropea" <tro...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:19588-38...@storefull-233.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
: I really liked this episode about the same as Buffy. A few
: inconsistancies though.
: S
:
: Lets go through the inconsistancies:
: 1) When Kate's father was being attacked we saw Angel could not enter
: his apartment and was blocked by some field.
: Tonight he dove right into Rebecca's house. Anyone else see the
: inconsistancy.
I feel you're gonna be barraged with the same answers for this one. She invited him
over... tapes? ; ) he hasn't viewed or seen any of her work.. remember?
:
: 2) Ok the mirror part is good but when they went to the premiere photos
: were taken and if i understand vampirism vampires do not appear in
: photos. Won't a few issues be raised?
they don't? Is that a fact? No dude they got pictures. Lookit Sense and Sensibility...
the W&H lawyer was looking at a picture of Angel . ) trust me
: 4) Wesley is starting to be a bit stronger willed and a better fighter
: then before. He is still played for laughs though but Angel had the best
: line when watching Cordy's performance "i thought eternity was long".
I never howled so much watching an eppy . ) weird, was I that bored of Buffy that Angel
became that much better? wow..case study
: 6) Ok Happy pills can make Angel into Angelus. Interesting. Can drugs
: really affect vampires? They are just animated dead without real body
: functions.
hmmmm Spike was affected by drugs... hell he didn't even take them he bit a hippy and
watched his hand move by itself for the next 8 hours. I'd name more but I'm tired tonight,
hence lil text answers
:
: 7) Angelus. I wouldn't mind seeing him more often. Is it me or does
: Boreanz seem to enjoy playing as Angelus. He like most villians tend to
: talk to much allowing their victims time to make a counter attack.
yea but therein lies the key to Angelus... his main weakness... EGO :P he is THAT
good... but it's his fatal flaw
:
: 8) Anyone get the feeling that Cordy wil have that water anointed now?
I WAS FULLY expecting Angelus to grab the bottle and drink it . ) to further prove how
badass he is... dissapointed me . (
The Senator
though.<<
I enjoyed Angel this week too.
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>>Lets go through the inconsistancies:
1) When Kate's father was being attacked we saw Angel could not enter
his apartment and was blocked by some field. Tonight he dove right into
Rebecca's house. Anyone else see the inconsistancy.<<
That's a real good catch, Dan! Someone in the script editing department
really goofed!
>>2) Ok the mirror part is good but when they went to the premiere photos were
taken and if i understand vampirism vampires do not appear in photos. Won't a
few issues be raised? <<
I think this has been depicted on Buffy. Trick appeared on video and the
vampire from "Helpless" showed up in a Polaroid.
>>3) Rebecca looked familiar. What else has she been in? She also was kind of
cute.<<
That's Tamara Gorksi (one of my favorite TV actresses). She was in a few
episodes of Hercules as Morrigan, on an episode of Earth: Final Conflict, and
I believe on Poltergeist the Legacy not too long ago. She looks better with
red hair, though. The black kept me flashing back to Keri Wurher in Sliders.
>>4) Wesley is starting to be a bit stronger willed and a better fighter then
before.<<
Wesley's definitely the man now. He kicked the crap out of Angelus. Takes
some guts to knock his ass down the elevator shaft. You go, Wes.
>>He is still played for laughs though but Angel had the best line when
watching Cordy's performance "i thought eternity was long".<<
When was he played for laughs tonight? I must've blinked during that bit.
<<5)Wesley and Cordy. Please keep the brother/sister relationship going. I
think its rather refreshing then the "will they/won't they/sexual entendres".<<
I hope they keep it the way it is too. Cordelia needs to pine forever for her
lost true love, Doyle. Wesley... we can hook him up with someone. I'd
volunteer. Arr arr.
>>6) Ok Happy pills can make Angel into Angelus. Interesting. Can drugs
really affect vampires? They are just animated dead without real body
functions. <<
Alcohol, drugs, it's all been proven on Buffy. Remember when Spike came back to
Sunnydale hammered out of his mind in "Lover's Walk"?
>>7) Angelus. I wouldn't mind seeing him more often. Is it me or does Boreanz
seem to enjoy playing as Angelus. He like most villians tend to talk to much
allowing their victims time to make a counter attack. <<
It's always more fun to play the villain. That's what Hudson Leick (Callisto
on Xena) says. =) She hated playing goody-goody Xena for those two episodes
during season two. And I think Boreanaz enjoys being the bad boy as much as
she enjoyed being the bad girl. You know he's having fun because it comes
through in his performance.
>>8) Anyone get the feeling that Cordy wil have that water anointed now?<<
Cordy really threw me. I thought she was telling the truth. Give her the
Oscar! Forget Angelina Jolie!!
>>9) Angel doesn't watch tv? Interesting. I would think that Angel like most
vamps would love tv since it lets them see the sun safely. I recall how Louis
in Interview with The Vampire loved going to movies since he could see the sun
and its affects safely. I thought this was a common trait of vampires although
we never really see tvs on Buffy and Angel.<<
I was under the impression the show was a prime time one. Not really a time
for Angel, the Dark Revenger, to be sitting around watching the tv. And when
you've been around as long as Angel has, there's little excitement or intrigue
that TV can offer.
>>Overall a good episode. Not great but a god standalone episode. On par with
Buffy tonight.<<
Entertaining episode. And I loved how Tamara took Angelus on and kicked his
ass! And Wesley too! And Cordy! Gee... everyone beat him up. Sheesh.
Angelus would do himself well NOT to show back up again. They're all prepared!
Teresa
"Man, I feel a hate crime comin' on." - Banky, _Chasing Amy_.
--"Must... kill... David... Arquette..."--
Sandi
his apartment and was blocked by some field. Tonight he dove right into
Rebecca's house. Anyone else see the inconsistancy.<<
That's a real good catch, Dan! Someone in the script editing department
really goofed!
------
Actually, earlier in the episode Rebecca DID invite Angel over for a private
screening of her non-emmy winning episode. I guess this must have counted.
"The Senator" <netgr...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000404223026...@ng-ft1.aol.com...
Sean Medlock
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For technical reasons that I'll be taking up with my cable company in the
morning, I missed the last 20 minutes. The last thing I saw, before some sort
of local access zoning board meeting or something cut in, was Angel's
transformation to Angelus (and then that commercial for that submarine movie).
It sounds like he got his ass kicked and changed back to Angel somehow, but
how? Didn't he have to die and come back from Hell the first time it happened?
I mean, he DID change back, right? And what happened with the actress? She was
great.
God, I can't believe I missed it. That was probably the most emotionally
involving episode for me since Doyle got fried, and I missed the best part. I
hate my cable company...
Sean
Tim Minear
1) When Kate's father was being attacked we saw Angel could not enter
his apartment and was blocked by some field. Tonight he dove right into
Rebecca's house. Anyone else see the inconsistancy.<<
>>That's a real good catch, Dan! Someone in the script editing department
really goofed!<<
Not to put too fine a point on it, but Rebecca not only says to Angel, "Well,
come on over I'll screen the episode I didn't win the Emmy for." She also says
"I'm kidding -- but not about THE INVITATION"
I goof not. Well, okay, not this time, anyhow.
Tim.
SWeick
(The Senator) writes:
>>>I really liked this episode about the same as Buffy. A few inconsistancies
>though.<<
>
>I enjoyed Angel this week too.
>
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>>>Lets go through the inconsistancies:
>1) When Kate's father was being attacked we saw Angel could not enter
>his apartment and was blocked by some field. Tonight he dove right into
>Rebecca's house. Anyone else see the inconsistancy.<<
>
>That's a real good catch, Dan! Someone in the script editing department
>really goofed!
>
Rewatch the tape. Rebecca invited Angel in to see her episode
that didn't win the Emmy. Angel then thanked her for the
*invitation*. Similar to how in Rm w/a Vw, Angel could enter
Cordy's apartmen.
Stephen Weick | Want to become a Wesley/Kate 'shipper? Ask me how!
swe...@aol.com | Philosophy : Any systematic scheme of thought which
swe...@mcs.kent.edu| allows you to be unhappy intelligently
Kate & Wesley in 00! Like their chances.
H.G.Hettinger
No they didn't. Rebecca invited Angel over to her place for a private
showing of the episode of "On Your Own' that she didn't win the Emmy
for. Angel even answers "Thanks for the invitation but..." making it
very clear to all and sundry that this did indeed constitute a vailid
invitation. (and "Rm w/a Vu" showed that even a casual invitation
like that counts as an invitation, despite Cordy's complaints about
it).
hgh
Sandy McDermin
>
> I really liked this episode about the same as Buffy. A few
> inconsistancies though.
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> Boreanz seem to enjoy playing as Angelus. He like most villians tend to
> talk to much allowing their victims time to make a counter attack.
Since it's a "school night" and way past my bedtime, I'll keep this
brief. Just wanted to say that I thought Boreanaz did an excellent job
as Angelus. (Where have they been hiding this guy?!) Not only did he
appear to enjoy being an evil evil-thing, but I suspect he could nail
down an HBO special to rival Dennis Miller.
Second, no doubt being 20-something in L.A. must be a r-e-a-l hardship.
(Can you just picture vampires all across Hollywood opening up
*Fountain* of Youth clinics? Before you know it, there'd be infomercials
with Connie Selleca and Suzanne Sommers.) Still, I didn't know whether
to laugh or cry. Whatever age Rebecca was going to claim, just add ten
years or more and then start whining. Hey! Maybe *I* should invite Angel
over for a Mickey Finn.
Anyway, although slow in the beginning, not a bad episode. (It lived up
to every stereotype I held about L.A. Gotta love that.;)
Nite all,
Sandy
- Old age isn't so bad when you consider the alternative. -Maurice
Chevalier
- It is sobering to consider that when Mozart was my age he had already
been dead for a year. -Tom Lerer
- One should never trust a woman who tells one her real age. A woman who
would tell one that, would tell one anything. -Oscar Wilde
- I refuse to admit that I am more than fifty-two, even if that does
make my sons illegitimate. -Lady Nancy Astor
- Remember that as a teenager you are at the last stage in your life
when you will be happy to hear that the phone is for you. -Fran
Lebowitz
H.G.Hettinger
wrote:
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>For technical reasons that I'll be taking up with my cable company in the
>morning, I missed the last 20 minutes. The last thing I saw, before some sort
>of local access zoning board meeting or something cut in, was Angel's
>transformation to Angelus (and then that commercial for that submarine movie).
>It sounds like he got his ass kicked and changed back to Angel somehow, but
>how? Didn't he have to die and come back from Hell the first time it happened?
>I mean, he DID change back, right? And what happened with the actress? She was
>great.
His tenure in hell wasn't what got him his soul back last time, it was
Willow renewing the curse just before Buffy had to send him there to
save the world.
This time the curse wasn't really broken, just suspended while the
drug-induced happiness lasted. Once the drug wore off (next morning)
he was back to normal.
As to the actress, she got jumped into the elevator to get away from
Angelus, then Cordy and Wesley showed up and got her to admit to
drugging Angel. Cordy bluffed Angelus with her waterbottle (claiming
that it was holy water) and then threw it into his face, distracting
him long enough for Wesley to push him down the elevator shaft (which
knocked him out). After that they chained him to his bed (much better
than in Somnabulist, he was practically giftwrapped, and couldn't move
more than his toes and head) and waited to see if he would be back to
normal once the drug wore off.
Both Wesley and Cordy claimed that they didn't hold his nasty words
form earlier against him after he apologized, but both walked out
without unchaining him. :-)
As to Rebecca, I guess she changed her mind about wanting to become a
vampire.
hgh
Don Sample
Tropea <tro...@webtv.net> wrote:
> I really liked this episode about the same as Buffy. A few
> inconsistancies though.
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> Lets go through the inconsistancies:
> 1) When Kate's father was being attacked we saw Angel could not enter
> his apartment and was blocked by some field.
> Tonight he dove right into Rebecca's house. Anyone else see the
> inconsistancy.
She invited him to come over some time to see the episode she didn't
win an emmy for.
> 2) Ok the mirror part is good but when they went to the premiere photos
> were taken and if i understand vampirism vampires do not appear in
> photos. Won't a few issues be raised?
Buffyverse vampires can be photographed. (they shouldn't show up in
the view finder of an SLR camera though)
> 6) Ok Happy pills can make Angel into Angelus. Interesting. Can drugs
> really affect vampires? They are just animated dead without real body
> functions.
Spike certainly seems able to get drunk, and the curare dart the
disintegrating doctor hit Angel with paralized him.
--
Don Sample, dsa...@synapse.net
Visit the Buffy Body Count at http://www.synapse.net/~dsample/BBC
Quando omni flunkus moritati
H.G.Hettinger
>>>Lets go through the inconsistancies:
>1) When Kate's father was being attacked we saw Angel could not enter
>his apartment and was blocked by some field. Tonight he dove right into
>Rebecca's house. Anyone else see the inconsistancy.<<
>
>>>That's a real good catch, Dan! Someone in the script editing department
>really goofed!<<
>
>Not to put too fine a point on it, but Rebecca not only says to Angel, "Well,
>come on over I'll screen the episode I didn't win the Emmy for." She also says
>"I'm kidding -- but not about THE INVITATION"
Actually they cut that last part (about her kidding), but Angel does
thank her for the invitation (which basically makes the same point)
and most of us viewers seem to have picked up on it anyway. :-)
>
>I goof not. Well, okay, not this time, anyhow.
I'll try to keep that in mind. :-)
hgh
Jennifer Escarge-Depro
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> 1) When Kate's father was being attacked we saw Angel could not enter
> his apartment and was blocked by some field.
> Tonight he dove right into Rebecca's house. Anyone else see the
> inconsistancy.
Not at all an inconsistency. You had to really watch for it though. When
Rebecca came to see Angel for the first time in his office, she said
something to the effect of having Angel over so that she could show him some
episode of her show. Angel's reply, "Thanks for the invitation". It ran in
the same vein as Angel being invited into Cordelia's new apartment.
Arthur Levesque
DT>1) When Kate's father was being attacked we saw Angel could not enter
DT> his apartment and was blocked by some field. Tonight he dove
DT> right into Rebecca's house. Anyone else see the inconsistancy.
Didn't she ask him over to see the episode she didn't get an Emmy
for?
DT>2) Ok the mirror part is good but when they went to the premiere
DT> photos were taken and if i understand vampirism vampires do not
DT> appear in photos. Won't a few issues be raised?
The whole issue of when Vamps appear and when they don't (film,
videotape, digital cameras, etc.) is open to some debate -- however, the
photographers took a lot of photos. How will they remember exactly who
was in each shot (especially when Angel is a nobody) and notice that he's
missing? Now if they took a ton of shots and REBECCA was in none of the
developed photos, THEN they'd notice and be suspicious...
DT>6) Ok Happy pills can make Angel into Angelus. Interesting. Can drugs
DT> really affect vampires? They are just animated dead without real
DT> body functions.
We've seen drugs and poisons affect vampires and other demons
before... But if Angelus was REALLY released, he would NOT have gone back
into the genie bottle just because the drug wore off -- I mean, after he
had sex with Buffy, he didn't revert back to Angel once the afterglow wore
off. It took Willow to restore his soul IIRC. Which means that in this
episode Angelus was really Angel the whole time; but because of the drug
he THOUGHT he was Angelus and acted accordingly. Isn't THAT scary?
DT>8) Anyone get the feeling that Cordy wil have that water anointed now?
Nah.
DT>9) Angel doesn't watch tv? Interesting. I would think that Angel like
DT> most vamps would love tv since it lets them see the sun safely. I
DT> recall how Louis in Interview with The Vampire loved going to
DT> movies...
Buffyverse vamps are not Anne Ricean vamps. Angel has never had that
big an interest in entertainment like TV and movies -- zero surprise
there.
--
/\ Arthur M Levesque 2A4W <*> b...@boog.orgy =/\= http://boog.org __
\B\ack King of the Potato People <fnord> "Ia! Ia! Cthulhu fhtagn!" (oO)
\S\lash Member of a vast right-wing conspiracy (-O-) Urban Spaceman /||\
\/ I was a lesbian before it was fashionable "I hate rainbows!"-EC
John Iwaniszek
Quote=>
Which means that in this
episode Angelus was really Angel the whole time; but because of the drug
he THOUGHT he was Angelus and acted accordingly. Isn't THAT scary?
<= Unquote
This is an interesting observation. The whole vampirism thing in moder
myth stems from the Victorian time and its concomitant neuroses. What
if vampirism and its little rules and phenomena where hysterical
illness?
Crosses, sunlight, holy water, etc. only have their effect because of
the parties belief in the effects. Failure of mirrors to reflect the
vamp is really hysterical blindness.
The drug thing did seem to be more a loss of inhibition than an actual
reversion to Angelus. Weasely's harangue to Angel in the office ante
room certainly lends credibilty Art's observation.
John
The Demented Furby
I was hopin peopole'd go back and watch it themselves, lol!] ; ) but there ya go folks...
put it in the front page with 4 inch letters and bold font!
"Tim Minear" <timm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000405005254...@ng-dh1.aol.com...
: >>Lets go through the inconsistancies:
: 1) When Kate's father was being attacked we saw Angel could not enter
: his apartment and was blocked by some field. Tonight he dove right into
: Rebecca's house. Anyone else see the inconsistancy.<<
:
: >>That's a real good catch, Dan! Someone in the script editing department
: really goofed!<<
:
: Not to put too fine a point on it, but Rebecca not only says to Angel, "Well,
: come on over I'll screen the episode I didn't win the Emmy for." She also says
: "I'm kidding -- but not about THE INVITATION"
:
: I goof not. Well, okay, not this time, anyhow.
:
: Tim.
Arthur Levesque
BS>Which means that in this episode Angelus was really Angel the whole
BS>time; but because of the drug he THOUGHT he was Angelus and acted
BS>accordingly. Isn't THAT scary?
John Iwaniszek (jiwan...@nc.rr.com) wrote:
JI>This is an interesting observation.
Only way to rationalize Angel being "back to normal" once the drug
wore off... Wesley seemed to realize this, since he was trying to get
through to Angel underneath, explaining that it was only a synthetic drug,
etc.
JI>The whole vampirism thing in modern myth stems from the Victorian
JI>time and its concomitant neuroses. What if vampirism and its little
JI>rules and phenomena where hysterical illness?
Are you refering to the "real world" or the Buffyverse? All of your
points have been addressed in other vamp stories, but are not consistent
with what we've seen of Buffy vamps.
JI>Crosses, sunlight, holy water, etc. only have their effect because
JI>of the parties belief in the effects.
Varies by author; many stories have vamps reacting to holy water even
without being informed that it was holy water (likewise, if belief is the
issue, than ANY water ought to have that effect if the vamp BELIEVES it to
be holy water)...
And how can psychological belief in the potency of stakes cause the
vamps to instantly turn to dust?
JI>Failure of mirrors to reflect the vamp is really hysterical blindness.
Even on the part of people who didn't know the vamp was a vamp?
JI>The drug thing did seem to be more a loss of inhibition than an
JI>actual reversion to Angelus.
He still has some evil vamp tendencies underneath; recall how he
enjoyed the "killing dreams" he had in the Highlander-esque episode.
JI>Weasely's harangue to Angel in the office ante room certainly lends
JI>credibilty Art's observation.
Thank you.
Sylvarose
Dan Tropea <tro...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:19588-38...@storefull-233.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> inconsistancies though.
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> 1) When Kate's father was being attacked we saw Angel could not enter
> his apartment and was blocked by some field.
> Tonight he dove right into Rebecca's house. Anyone else see the
> inconsistancy.
>
Yo Dan...watch the episode again. Rebecca *invited* Angel over for a
private screening. He had an invitation much in the same way he had one in A
Room with a Vu...where Cordy told him he was welcome to come over any
time..and therefore he walked right in.
Sylvarose
Geoduck
(snip)
> The whole issue of when Vamps appear and when they don't (film,
>videotape, digital cameras, etc.) is open to some debate -- however, the
>photographers took a lot of photos. How will they remember exactly who
>was in each shot (especially when Angel is a nobody) and notice that he's
>missing? Now if they took a ton of shots and REBECCA was in none of the
>developed photos, THEN they'd notice and be suspicious...
(snip)
And it might have caused a few more fundamental problems with her
career if she can't show up on camera...
--
Geoduck
geo...@usa.net
http://www.olywa.net/cook
Arthur Levesque
GD>...And it might have caused a few more fundamental problems with her
GD>career if she can't show up on camera...
Ooo, THERE'S a point she hadn't thought through clearly!
The Demented Furby
to love saying it . )
"Sandy McDermin" <smcd...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:38EAD7D1...@erols.com...
: Dan Tropea wrote:
: >
: > I really liked this episode about the same as Buffy. A few
: > inconsistancies though.
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: > 7) Angelus. I wouldn't mind seeing him more often. Is it me or does
z
Demented Furby" <Wouldn't you like to know!> wrote:
> "Youth is wasted on the young"... forgot who said
> it but my grandma [may she RIP] used to love saying it . )
That was the old guy sitting on the porch watching George
Bailey not kiss Mary Hatch in "It's A Wonderful Life."
* Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping. Smart is Beautiful
J. Potts
GD>...And it might have caused a few more fundamental problems with her
GD>career if she can't show up on camera...
In article <8cfo1p$gg5$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>,
Arthur Levesque <b...@boog.orgy> wrote:
> Ooo, THERE'S a point she hadn't thought through clearly!
That, and the fact she would be limited to studio/night shoots. How
exactly would she explain that she can't do daylight shoots anymore?
--
JRP
"How many slime-trailing, sleepless, slimy, slobbering things do you know
that will *run and hide* from your Eveready?"
--Maureen Birnbaum, Barbarian Swordsperson
C. Barrans
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> Not to put too fine a point on it, but Rebecca not only says to Angel, "Well,
> come on over I'll screen the episode I didn't win the Emmy for." She also says
> "I'm kidding -- but not about THE INVITATION"
>
> I goof not. Well, okay, not this time, anyhow.
Ah, but once again you're quoting the director's cut, not the show as
aired...
Good to see you about the newsgroup, though. Care to share any other
lines or scenes that we didn't get to see? :-)
-- CB
«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»«»
Some see the world in black and white.
Others see it in shades of grey.
Can you dream in color?
Dan Tropea
diagnosis and not a true change. Lets see the events chronologically.
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1) He is terrified at being happy. Even though Wesley said only true
happiness can bring about the change and there is a difference from
being happy and achieving true happiness. No matter what he is
terrified of being happy.
2) He threw blood at the actress then was shocked at his action. Yes he
went overboard but i think he was upset with a human wanting to be a
vampire. He might also have been upset that he fell for her.
3) He realized something was wrong with his body.
4) She said it was just something to make him relax - happy pill.
5) When he heard "happy" he probably subconsciously thought
happy=angelus thus turned to his Angelus persona. If she had just said
"tranquilizer" he probably would not have changed to Angelus.
I think happiness to him frightens him since he associates happiness
with Angelus. Although around Cordy and Wesley he often smiles at their
remarks which means he can feel happiness but its true happiness that
does it. I don't believe Angel really grasps the difference.
Yes if the happy drug really can turn Angel to Angelus he would not
have reverted back. I am unfamiliar with that drug but i doubt it can
bring true happiness or if any drug can. By the way how can a drug make
one happy? Is it really an anti-depressent?
* Sent from Novell Discussion Forums http://novell.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
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The Demented Furby
invitation ..." - Angel
that good enough for you that there's factual proof of an invite? ; )
"C. Barrans" <cbar...@erols.com> wrote in message news:38EB84FF...@erols.com...
: Tim Minear wrote:
: .
:
: Ah, but once again you're quoting the director's cut, not the show as
The Demented Furby
one which I saw . ) it's the same name... almost
"z" <zan16N...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:109ec386...@usw-ex0110-075.remarq.com...
: In article <8cfqcc$1rt$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net>, "The
Derek Leach
C. Barrans <cbar...@erols.com> wrote:
>Tim Minear wrote:
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>.
>> Not to put too fine a point on it, but Rebecca not only says to Angel, "Well,
>> come on over I'll screen the episode I didn't win the Emmy for." She also says
>> "I'm kidding -- but not about THE INVITATION"
>>
>> I goof not. Well, okay, not this time, anyhow.
>
>aired...
>
>Good to see you about the newsgroup, though. Care to share any other
>lines or scenes that we didn't get to see? :-)
>
>-- CB
CB, that line was in the aired episode.
Gharlane of Eddore
>
> ...And it might have caused a few more fundamental problems with her
>
In <8cfo1p$gg5$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>,
Arthur Levesque <b...@boog.orgy> wrote:
>
> Ooo, THERE'S a point she hadn't thought through clearly!
>
In <8cfvcc$h...@ssbunews.ih.lucent.com>
nav...@pubs.ih.lucent.com (J. Potts) writes:
>
> That, and the fact she would be limited to studio/night shoots. How
> exactly would she explain that she can't do daylight shoots anymore?
>
"My dermatologist says I can *not* go out in the sun.
I have an acute case of lupus erythematosis, and sunshine,
even a little, will trigger it."
( I used this line in a short story about an "ageless" movie star,
about twenty years back. Apparently the editor and the four to six
people who seem to have read it all thought it was a workable ploy. )
The thing that intrigued me about that episode was that I'm sure
Tamara Gorski was wearing a wig, but it was a good enough wig that
I didn't consciously notice it at first.
And the writer should be *shot* for the bad writing of Carpenter's
part; she did a good job with it, but it was really infantile
over-the-top idiocy, kind of an insult to someone who's that much
better than the material. At least they didn't write Denisoff's
character as a total wipe-out this time around, and let him show
some guts.
C. Barrans
No, Angel tossed off the line "Thanks for the invitation," but the line
which Tim Minear quoted above was not in the episode as aired. I
checked.
C. Barrans
>
> ok, then how about if I quote directly from the show then. "... Thanx for the
> invitation ..." - Angel
> that good enough for you that there's factual proof of an invite? ; )
Oh, I wasn't arguing that she hadn't invited Angel (with her line about
coming over to see the episode she didn't get an Emmy for), just
pointing out that the line Tim quoted as evidence for an invite wasn't
in the show that aired. Like I said, I think Tim was quoting from the
director's cut again, and I wanna know what else was cut out...
-- Cb
WWS
Drugs induce many kinds of emotions, Dan, that's why they're so
popular in certain circles. Better living through Chemistry and
all that. I'm not sure what they mentioned was a real drug (don't
recall the name they used, it would have been smart in light of any
legal ramifications to have just made something up) but there's
several things that fit the bill. One that comes to mind is Sodium
Pentathol - an injection of that and you can laugh and sing while
someone opens up your gut and rearranges your intestines. (which is
the kind of thing it's used for) Euphoria is an easily reproduced
chemical state - what you "feel" as happiness is a certain balance
of epinephrines and other naturally occurring chemicals in your
body, and mood altering drugs operate by mimicking or replacing
these in your body. And, of course, doing all kinds of odd things
if they show up at 100 times the concentration that your body was
intended to be able to handle.
The flip side of this is that depression also is very often primarily
a chemical problem in the body, which is why there has been such a
boom recently in products with the ability to treat this condition.
"One pill makes you larger, and one pill makes you small.
And the ones that mother gives you, don't do anything at all"
--
__________________________________________________WWS_____________
For lo; on that fateful day when black R'lyeh finally rises and Great
Cthulhu ravages his way across the width and the breath the land, the
final blood-red rays of the setting sun will reveal a single human
being still alive amidst the carnage and the flaming chaos: Dan Tropea.
And he will still be posting to rec.arts.sf.tv. - Geoduck
Judith Cornish
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>Hi John i tend to agree with the other posters
> about a hysterical diagnosis and not a true
> change. Lets see the events chronologically.
>3) He realized something was wrong with his
> body.
>4) She said it was just something to make him
> relax - happy pill.
>5) When he heard "happy" he probably
> subconsciously thought happy=angelus thus
> turned to his Angelus persona. If she had just
> said "tranquilizer" he probably would not have
> changed to Angelus.
I don't buy this. I don't think the change was a hysterical reaction to
the word happy. IMO, the drug just relaxed Angel's inhibitions. Angel's
true soul, which struggles constantly to keep the Angelus demon under
control, was weakened by the drug and thus the demon was able to
surface, temporarily. When the drug wore off, Angel was back in control
and Angelus was once again submerged.
>Yes if the happy drug really can turn Angel to
> Angelus he would not have reverted back.
But Angelus, the demon, is always there. Angel's soul and the demon live
side by side in the same body. So, Angel doesn't really turn into
Angelus unless he loses his soul again. But, if Angel's inhibitions and
self-control are removed, there's nothing to stop the demon from taking
control of the shared body. IMO, that's what happened in this case.
Judy
IrishRose
tro...@webtv.net (Dan Tropea) wrote:
>I really liked this episode about the same as Buffy. A few
>inconsistancies though.
>p
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>1) When Kate's father was being attacked we saw Angel could not
enter
>his apartment and was blocked by some field.
>Tonight he dove right into Rebecca's house. Anyone else see the
>inconsistancy.
That really bugged me too. Must be some sort of loophole if
somebody has tried to hire a vampire, thereby extending an
implied invitation. (??????)
>3) Rebecca looked familiar. What else has she been in? She also
was kind of cute.
Picture her with very short red hair in leather and
plaid...running very fast....sporting an "irish" accent and
fooling around with Hercules. =)
(Morrigan)
>Angel had the bestline when watching Cordy's performance "i
>thought eternity was long".
Loved that bit! (especially coupled with his Hell comment)
>5)Wesley and Cordy. Please keep the brother/sister relationship
going. I
>think its rather refreshing then the "will they/won't
they/sexual
>entendres".
Yes. Of course then again they'd been there done that and
spectacularly failed to get past first base.
>6) Ok Happy pills can make Angel into Angelus. Interesting. Can
drugs
>really affect vampires? They are just animated dead without real
body
>functions.
I was wondering about blood flow stuff myself.
>7) Angelus. I wouldn't mind seeing him more often. Is it me or
does
>Boreanz seem to enjoy playing as Angelus. He like most villians
tend to
>talk to much allowing their victims time to make a counter
attack.
He gets to exibit more of a sense of humour as Angelus for sure.
Is it me or is Angelus getting uglier? (at least his teeth seem
to be.)
>8) Anyone get the feeling that Cordy wil have that water
anointed now?
hahaha. Yes! And I'm surprised she hadn't thought of that
before....of course that could make Angel's first cup of joe
quite invigorating!
>9) Angel doesn't watch tv? Interesting. I would think that Angel
like most vamps would love tv since it lets them see the sun
safely. I recall how Louis in Interview with The Vampire loved
going to movies since he >could see the sun and its affects
safely. I thought this was a common >trait of vampires although
we never really see tvs on Buffy and Angel.
ummmm....*real* vampires don't have time for tv. Louis was a
fictional character. ;)
~Thalia
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
Don Sample
wrote:
"I'm kidding -- but not about THE INVITATION" wasn't in the version
aired. Rebecca tells Angel to come over to see the episode that she
didn't win the Emmy for and Angel thanks her for the invitation. Still
close enough to let him in.
Sue Fiedler
iteration of my own points- you can see angel slowly losing his grip,
first opening up, becoming aroused and a bit lustful, losing his
inhibitions (which would stir the demon, no?)then becoming frightened ,
anxious and angry when he realizes what she really wants - then as a
result of the anger and his anxiety to show her what she was really asking
for, force feeding her the blood - then the blood on her face and his hands
and thefloor calling the demon up-and presto-no angel inhibitions left to
put him back in the cage. Poor baby, he really has bad luck with women:>(
Sami
Judith Cornish wrote:
> Dan wrote:
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Michael Ikeda
>I really liked this episode about the same as Buffy. A few
>inconsistancies though.
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>3) Rebecca looked familiar. What else has she been in? She also was kind
>of cute.
One role that Tamara Gorski played was Morrigan on "Hercules: The
Legendary Journey's".
Note that Morrigan is also the name of a Celtic Goddess often associated
with ravens.
One wonders if the name of the character Rebecca played (Raven) is a
bit of an inside joke. Especially since two of her key appearances as
Morrigan were "about a season and a half ago", if I recall correctly.
Michael Ikeda mmi...@erols.com
"Telling a statistician not to use sampling is like telling an
astronomer they can't say there is a moon and stars"
Lynne Billard, past president American Statistical Association
Eric Gorr
at all. Angel is still cursed or he would not have turned good again.
What I think this episode showed is that the demon is still inside of
him, but is suppressed by his soul.
What the pills (and probably other drugs, if they are strong enough) are
capable of doing is suppressing his soul, allowing the demon to take
control.
The opinion that the pills somehow modified the curse would then just be
wrong.
Dan Tropea <tro...@webtv.net> wrote:
> 6) Ok Happy pills can make Angel into Angelus. Interesting. Can drugs
> really affect vampires? They are just animated dead without real body
> functions.
--
== Eric Gorr =========================================== ICQ:9293199 ===
"Therefore the considerations of the intelligent always include both
benefit and harm." - Sun Tzu
== Insults, like violence, are the last resort of the incompetent... ===
David Thiel
news:1e8mmob.kqanapovrswaN%er...@mgfairfax.rr.com...
> My own personal take on this is that the Pills didn't effect the curse
> at all. Angel is still cursed or he would not have turned good again.
>
> What I think this episode showed is that the demon is still inside of
> him, but is suppressed by his soul.
And wasn't this explicitly stated as far back as the first season "Buffy"
episode "Angel?" I recall him saying something to the effect that he had to
make a conscious effort to *not* go around biting people's necks.
--
David Thiel
Champaign, Illinois
d-t...@uiuc.edu
www.geocities.com/dodonna1
z
<samif...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> What she said:>) Glad I read the whole thread before
> repeating a perfect iteration of my own points- you can
> see angel slowly losing his grip, first opening up,
> becoming aroused and a bit lustful, losing his inhibitions
> (which would stir the demon, no?)then becoming frightened,
> anxious and angry when he realizes what she really wants -
> then as a result of the anger and his anxiety to show her
> what she was really asking for, force feeding her the
> blood - then the blood on her face and his hands and the
> floor calling the demon up-and presto-no angel inhibitions
> left to put him back in the cage. Poor baby, he really has
> bad luck with women:>(
> Sami
What is it that is annoying me about this whole scenario? I
think everyone who has said that this was about Angel's
inability to control Angelus under the influence of this
drug is correct. But I find this whole thing problemmatic.
For one thing, is does indicate that there are other ways to
bring out Angelus rather than remove the curse. I know it
wasn't actually Angelus but it was the "evil version" of
Angel, as Cordy so aptly put it, so it kind of undermines
the whole point of the curse. I think I would have found
the whole thing a lot more satisfying if Angel had reacted
somewhat to Wesley's words, if there had been more of a
struggle between the two halves.
Plus, I am disturbed by this whole notion of synthetic
happiness having the same effects as true happiness. I am
not if this has already be said, but I do think part of the
effect of the drug was to allow Angel to *think* he was
happy, therefore allowing him to slip into Angelus. In other
words, Angel could feel himself getting happy and therefore
he believed he was turning and therefore he allowed Angelus
to come out. Well, maybe that is not what the writers were
intending, but it would make the whole situation a lot more
interesting to me.
It was a good episode in that it made me think, and that is
always what I am looking for, but there were just a few
things I found frustrating in the execution.
Dan Tropea
she looked familiar but i was not thinking that it was the actress who
played Morrigan. Wow!! Totally different looking plus of course no
Irish accent.
* Sent from Novell Discussion Forums http://novell.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
ti...@enteract.bottblock.com
Not to mention that SciFi was running a Herc/Xena four-play last night,
and one of the Herc episodes was the first one with Morrigan in it. How's
that for coincidence? (In the central time zone, it started just after
Angel ended)
Tirya
--
| The crown o' the earth doth melt. |
| TDC Inca Jeeper | AlTeam #99 | http://www.enteract.com/~tirya |
Timothy A. McDaniel
Also spoilers for two previous _Buffy_ season 3 episodes, "Enemies"
and "Graduation Day part 2" and "Amends [Christmas special]" ...
In article <3230d009...@usw-ex0110-075.remarq.com>,
z <zan16N...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
>I think everyone who has said that this was about Angel's inability
>to control Angelus under the influence of this drug is correct. But
>I find this whole thing problemmatic. For one thing, is does
>indicate that there are other ways to bring out Angelus rather than
>remove the curse.
But we know that there is.
1) The Mayor believed that it was possible via a spell: the djinn-like
friend of Giles in "Enemies".
2) It certainly was possible for Buffy to do it, when Angel was
feverish with the poison in "Graduation Day part II": she kept
hitting him, beating her beloved mate until the beast within him
roared out and he tackled her to the floor and fed on her with the
repressed hunger of a thousand yearning nights and she kicked out
in estatic pain and ...
Sorry. Private moment there.
>it kind of undermines the whole point of the curse.
I disagree. It undermines *the escape clause*, but it emphasizes *the
curse*, that there is a really-o truly-o vampire underneath there and
it's only Angel's will digging in its fingernails to keep the beast
caged. And that will can be weak ("Amends [Christmas special]") or
can be overwhelmed, as when he lustfully fed on his true love while
she writhed beneath his half-naked body ...
I guess I'd really better leave now.
--
Tim McDaniel is tm...@jump.net; if that fail,
tm...@us.ibm.com is my work account.
"To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything
up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka....@hut.fi (Jukka Korpela)
Gharlane of Eddore
>
> One role that Tamara Gorski played was Morrigan on "Hercules: The
> Legendary Journey's".
>
Not "Morrigan. "THE Morrigan." Definite article, as in "THE Leewit."
OBSP: "journeys". ( "journies" would also be acceptable, but sloppy. )
Hint: When you don't know how to use apostrophes, just leave them OUT;
you'll be right more often than wrong.
>
> Note that Morrigan is also the name of a Celtic Goddess often associated
> with ravens.
>
> One wonders if the name of the character Rebecca played (Raven) is a
> bit of an inside joke. Especially since two of her key appearances as
> Morrigan were "about a season and a half ago", if I recall correctly.
>
You missed the major reference; your connection is clever, but reaches
too far.
Dara Toumanovitch ( sp? ) played a character named "Alex Raven" in
the last season of "HIGHLANDER," when the producers cranked out a
half-dozen episodes pivoting around guest actresses, obviously
hot-testing tryouts for casting in the series "HIGHLANDER: THE RAVEN."
Tamara Gorski, a Canadian actress, was mentioned often and loudly as
a potential Good Choice for the lead in "RAVEN," but came up as a
hot possibility only after the dozen-plus last season HL episodes
were already pretty well set in concrete.
In short, Gorski was one of the finalists being considered for the
lead in "HIGHLANDER: THE RAVEN" before they had an attack of
something or other and just went with Elisabeth Gracen.
( And Gorski would have been an acceptable choice, since she's a
*good* actress, even if she is a Vile Canadian. )
( Another of the gals who were under serious consideration is
Justina Vail, currently serving hard time on "SEVEN DAYS." )
Since the past-series character was referred to as "Raven," it's far
more likely the Whedonian Writers had the "Highlander" gig in mind.
poster girl with no poster
>On 05 Apr 2000 03:19:07 GMT, sea...@aol.commapsquhp (Sean Medlock)
>wrote:
>
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>
>This time the curse wasn't really broken, just suspended while the
>drug-induced happiness lasted. Once the drug wore off (next morning)
>he was back to normal.
>
>As to the actress, she got jumped into the elevator to get away from
>Angelus, then Cordy and Wesley showed up and got her to admit to
>drugging Angel. Cordy bluffed Angelus with her waterbottle (claiming
>that it was holy water) and then threw it into his face, distracting
>him long enough for Wesley to push him down the elevator shaft (which
>knocked him out).
Y'know, for a guy who can take a bullet, jump out of a window, and keep
running, he's surprisingly easy to take down.
-- Bex
"The world's Turing test was not yet over." ~R. Powers
JOmen
seen earlier in the episode, she really isn't the greatest
actress, which makes me think that, even though the "holy" water
was a fake, who wants to bet that she has a stake in her desk,
just in case her boss has an off day?
Jason.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
William George Ferguson
>In <8cgc7j$d09$1...@bob.news.rcn.net> mmi...@erols.com (Michael Ikeda) writes:
>>
>> One role that Tamara Gorski played was Morrigan on "Hercules: The
>> Legendary Journey's".
>>
>
>Not "Morrigan. "THE Morrigan." Definite article, as in "THE Leewit."
Ah, like The Captain.
Heather
>
> Lets go through the inconsistancies:
> 1) When Kate's father was being attacked we saw Angel could not enter
> his apartment and was blocked by some field.
> Tonight he dove right into Rebecca's house. Anyone else see the
> inconsistancy.
>
but, she did invite him over in the begining, and dident Angel say
something to Cordy about, once invited, always invited? Like I said, I
could be totally off base, but I was thinking the same exact thing.
> 2) Ok the mirror part is good but when they went to the premiere
photos
> were taken and if i understand vampirism vampires do not appear in
> photos. Won't a few issues be raised?
>
Okay, same thing here, I remember, and I think it was the first
episode, that he said something to the effect that its what our mind
sees of something... arghhh, I cant remember... sorry
> 3) Rebecca looked familiar. What else has she been in? She also was
kind
> of cute.
> Very pretty, but, a little thin though, sure wish that hollywood
would let these women gain a little weight.
> 4) Wesley is starting to be a bit stronger willed and a better fighter
> then before. He is still played for laughs though but Angel had the
best
> line when watching Cordy's performance "i thought eternity was long".
Yes, I think, that Wesley will save the day in some way or another.
> 5)Wesley and Cordy. Please keep the brother/sister relationship
going. I
> think its rather refreshing then the "will they/won't they/sexual
> entendres".
>
agreed, but I do wish that Cordy could have maybe one half way good
relationship.. maybe her and her ghost can be boyfriend/grilfriend...
> 6) Ok Happy pills can make Angel into Angelus. Interesting. Can drugs
> really affect vampires? They are just animated dead without real body
> functions.
> Dunno
> 7) Angelus. I wouldn't mind seeing him more often. Is it me or does
> Boreanz seem to enjoy playing as Angelus. He like most villians tend
to
> talk to much allowing their victims time to make a counter attack.
>
Okay, did you notice too, that he looked different? do you think
they got someone else to do his makeup? Cause in my opinion, he looked
way different. But, I could be wrong on this one too.. But, I do want
more ANgelus...
> 8) Anyone get the feeling that Cordy wil have that water anointed
now?
> Ha ha
> 9) Angel doesn't watch tv? Interesting. I would think that Angel like
> most vamps would love tv since it lets them see the sun safely. I
recall
> how Louis in Interview with The Vampire loved going to movies since he
> could see the sun and its affects safely. I thought this was a common
> trait of vampires although we never really see tvs on Buffy and
Angel.
> Dunno on this one too, I know if I had eternal life, I would have
satelite tv, the illegal kind, what are they going to do, arrest me? :o)
> Overall a good episode. Not great but a god standalone episode. On par
> with Buffy tonight.
>
> I like it too. I thought they were both good, to bad we have more re-
peats though..
Heather
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
The Senator
really goofed!<<
Not to put too fine a point on it, but Rebecca not only says to Angel, "Well,
come on over I'll screen the episode I didn't win the Emmy for." She also says
"I'm kidding -- but not about THE INVITATION"<<
Yeah, I'd forgotten about that point.
Teresa
"Man, I feel a hate crime comin' on." - Banky, _Chasing Amy_.
--"Must... kill... David... Arquette..."--
The Senator
>>No they didn't. Rebecca invited Angel over to her place for a private
showing of the episode of "On Your Own' that she didn't win the Emmy
for. Angel even answers "Thanks for the invitation but..." making it
very clear to all and sundry that this did indeed constitute a vailid
invitation. (and "Rm w/a Vu" showed that even a casual invitation
like that counts as an invitation, despite Cordy's complaints about
it).<<
Okay, folks, I know he WAS invited now! <g> I'd forgotten the small point that
Rebecca had invited him over to view her episode she "didn't get the Emmy for".
I was corrected about ten minutes after I posted my major goof by someone. =)
kirs...@yahoo.com
>In article <19588-38...@storefull-233.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
>tro...@webtv.net (Dan Tropea) wrote:
>>I really liked this episode about the same as Buffy. A few
>>inconsistancies though.
>>p
>>o
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>>9) Angel doesn't watch tv? Interesting. I would think that Angel
>like most vamps would love tv since it lets them see the sun
>safely. I recall how Louis in Interview with The Vampire loved
>going to movies since he >could see the sun and its affects
>safely. I thought this was a common >trait of vampires although
>we never really see tvs on Buffy and Angel.
>
>ummmm....*real* vampires don't have time for tv. Louis was a
>fictional character. ;)
but he obviously does watch movies... mentioning his preference for Frank
Langella over Bella Lugosi and Gary Oldham. Though when you think of it, a
dark movie theater would be like an all you can eat buffet for a vampire...
ok now that I've thought of that I'm going to have to sit in the last row from
now on.
cerise
Gharlane of Eddore
>
ghar...@ccshp1.ccs.csus.edu (Gharlane of Eddore) wrote:
>
> Not "Morrigan. "THE Morrigan." Definite article, as in "THE Leewit."
>
In <97rnesgdqu23eefo1...@4ax.com>
William George Ferguson <fr...@primenet.com> writes:
>
> Ah, like The Captain.
>
Always reassuring to encounter someone on the Net who's actually
read a book!
setro...@my-deja.com
mmi...@erols.com (Michael Ikeda) wrote:
> In article <19588-38...@storefull-233.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, tro...@webtv.net (Dan Tropea) wrote:
> >I really liked this episode about the same as Buffy. A few
> >inconsistancies though.
> >S
> >p
> >o
> >i
> >l
> >e
> >r
> >
> >S
> >p
> >a
> >c
> >e
> >
> >S
> >'
> >m
> >o
> >r
> >e
>
> >of cute.
>
> Legendary Journey's".
Not to mention her guest appearance as Alexa
Singleton on the late, lamented "Dracula: the
Series." No wonder Rebecca wasn't afraid of
vampires--she already knew all about them! (Though
why she'd go to Angelus instead of to Lucard to get
vamped is beyond me. Lucard might not be a nice
guy, but at least he's rational...)
--Sarah T.
z
(Timothy A. McDaniel) wrote:
> But we know that there is.
> 1) The Mayor believed that it was possible via a spell:
> the djinn-like friend of Giles in "Enemies".
> 2) It certainly was possible for Buffy to do it, when
> Angel was feverish with the poison in "Graduation Day part
> II": she kept hitting him, beating her beloved mate until
> the beast within him roared out and he tackled her to the
> floor and fed on her with the repressed hunger of a
> thousand yearning nights and she kicked out in estatic
> pain and ...
> Sorry. Private moment there.
Clearly. Would you like to be alone?
I realize that there are other ways to remove the curse, but
with both the ways mentioned, Angel's culpability isn't
exactly clear (I guess it isn't in this episode either). In
any case, it seems to me that the most interesting feature
of the series is that Angel is taking responsibility for the
actions of Angelus, and giving him a drug that allows him to
do nasty things and then feel bad about it in the morning is
not a satisfying way for me to watch Angel struggle with his
inner demons.
> >it kind of undermines the whole point of the curse.
> I disagree. It undermines *the escape clause*, but it
> emphasizes *the curse*, that there is a really-o truly-o
> vampire underneath there and it's only Angel's will
> digging in its fingernails to keep the beast caged. And
> that will can be weak ("Amends [Christmas special]") or
> can be overwhelmed, as when he lustfully fed on his true
> love while she writhed beneath his half-naked body ...
> I guess I'd really better leave now.
Enough! Take a cold shower, will you? :-)
I think you are right, it probably undermines the escape
clause more than the curse, but since the escape clause is
such an essential part of what makes the curse interesting,
I say that that is no small thing. I am glad that they are
emphasizing that there are dual halves to Angel, but I
didn't see enough of the conflict between the two of them to
allow for the escpae clause to be undermined.
Lisa Coulter
happiness" just caused by chemical reactions in the brain? So how come a
drug "mimics" it - if he _feels_ perfectly happy, strikes me it doesn't
matter what the cause is, he is!
John Iwaniszek wrote:
> Quote=>
>
> Which means that in this
> episode Angelus was really Angel the whole time; but because of the drug
> he THOUGHT he was Angelus and acted accordingly. Isn't THAT scary?
>
> <= Unquote
>
> This is an interesting observation. The whole vampirism thing in moder
> myth stems from the Victorian time and its concomitant neuroses. What
> if vampirism and its little rules and phenomena where hysterical
> illness?
>
> Crosses, sunlight, holy water, etc. only have their effect because of
> the parties belief in the effects. Failure of mirrors to reflect the
> vamp is really hysterical blindness.
>
> The drug thing did seem to be more a loss of inhibition than an actual
> reversion to Angelus. Weasely's harangue to Angel in the office ante
> room certainly lends credibilty Art's observation.
>
> John
Timothy A. McDaniel
> One role that Tamara Gorski played was Morrigan on "Hercules..."
ghar...@ccshp1.ccs.csus.edu (Gharlane of Eddore) wrote:
> Not "Morrigan. "THE Morrigan." Definite article, as in "THE Leewit."
In <97rnesgdqu23eefo1...@4ax.com>
William George Ferguson <fr...@primenet.com> writes:
> Ah, like The Captain.
In article <8chbpl$4...@news.csus.edu>,
Gharlane of Eddore <ghar...@ccshp1.ccs.csus.edu> wrote:
>Always reassuring to encounter someone on the Net who's actually read
>a book!
tm...@jump.net wrote:
> (For more convenient replies, I'll add mine in that style.)
>
> No, no -- surely he's referring to the evil master of the music duo,
> The Captain and Tennille!
>
> (Referred to on a _Buffy_ ep: Willow and Xander argued about which of
> the two was in control. That was a bit of a goof, unless Xander and
> Willow are into 70s retro (gag). The TC&T's heyday, such as it was,
> was around 1975, about 7 years before Willow and Xander were born.)
>
> Now, if Ferguson had written "Like 'The Skipper'", I'd *really*
> worry.
Timothy A. McDaniel
cascading, I've added my reply in the form of a quote.)
In <8cgc7j$d09$1...@bob.news.rcn.net> mmi...@erols.com (Michael Ikeda) writes:
> One role that Tamara Gorski played was Morrigan on "Hercules..."
ghar...@ccshp1.ccs.csus.edu (Gharlane of Eddore) wrote:
> Not "Morrigan. "THE Morrigan." Definite article, as in "THE Leewit."
In <97rnesgdqu23eefo1...@4ax.com>
William George Ferguson <fr...@primenet.com> writes:
> Ah, like The Captain.
In article <8chbpl$4...@news.csus.edu>,
Gharlane of Eddore <ghar...@ccshp1.ccs.csus.edu> wrote:
>Always reassuring to encounter someone on the Net who's actually read
>a book!
tm...@jump.net wrote:
> No, no -- surely he's referring to the evil master of the music duo,
> The Captain and Tennille!
>
> Since Gharlane is famous for stating that he has no sense of humor,
> I should state that my reply is lighthearted, if not actually
> humorous. I don't know who "The Captain" might be in litterchure;
> I don't know which "The Captain" Ferguson was referring to, so I
> picked the schlockiest one I could think of.
The Demented Furby
"z" <zan16N...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:02344dea...@usw-ex0110-075.remarq.com...
: In article <8cg1ss$9ga$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net>, "The
: Demented Furby" <Wouldn't you like to know!> wrote:
: > hmmmm huh? Never actually saw that movie . ( and I get
: > confused by the benigni film one which I saw . ) it's the
: > same name... almost
:
: Not see "It's A Wonderful Life!" Well, that's downright
: un-American.
you'd be shocked how many "Americans" have not fully seen It's a wonderful life . )
I'd wager at least 60% hasn't seen it fully, maybe more ; ) I've seen the movie, know of
the story, but can honestly say I have not sat down and watched the movie from beginning
to end.
Hell they show it every xmas, we take it for granted.
:
: My apologies if you are, indeed, not American.
:
ummmm, ummmm, ummmm... seeing a movie, makes you an American? interesting ideologies,
"friend".. guess if you yourself have sat down during Xmas and watched the movie from
beginning to end, then I guess to you, you're a "Real true American"
William George Ferguson
>> One role that Tamara Gorski played was Morrigan on "Hercules..."
>
>ghar...@ccshp1.ccs.csus.edu (Gharlane of Eddore) wrote:
>> Not "Morrigan. "THE Morrigan." Definite article, as in "THE Leewit."
>
>In <97rnesgdqu23eefo1...@4ax.com>
>William George Ferguson <fr...@primenet.com> writes:
>> Ah, like The Captain.
>
>In article <8chbpl$4...@news.csus.edu>,
>Gharlane of Eddore <ghar...@ccshp1.ccs.csus.edu> wrote:
>>Always reassuring to encounter someone on the Net who's actually read
>>a book!
tm...@jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) wrote:
>(Superceding previous: adding a bit of text. For more convenient
>cascading, I've added my reply in the form of a quote.)
>> No, no -- surely he's referring to the evil master of the music duo,
>> The Captain and Tennille!
>> Since Gharlane is famous for stating that he has no sense of humor,
>> I should state that my reply is lighthearted, if not actually
>> humorous. I don't know who "The Captain" might be in litterchure;
>> I don't know which "The Captain" Ferguson was referring to, so I
>> picked the schlockiest one I could think of.
It (Eddorians, even members of the Inner Circle like Gharlane, are
sexless) made a paraphrase from a book, I added the direct quote which
followed in the book.
The book is currently out of print, although hopefully Baen will
change that (and having now read 'Telzey Amberdon', it is Not edited
to death).
The Captain is, of course, the redoubtable Captain Pausert of
Nikkeldepain; The Leewit (and every single reference you ever see to
the book will make a point of telling you, not Leewit, The Leewit) is
the youngest of the three Karres witches who are his charges, and the
book is The Witches of Karres.
It is a very good book.
If you are not familiar with James H. Schmitz, well, that is now
becoming correctable.
Julia Milton
>>> with her career if she can't show up on camera...
>> Ooo, THERE'S a point she hadn't thought through clearly!
> That, and the fact she would be limited to studio/night shoots. How
> exactly would she explain that she can't do daylight shoots anymore?
Wonderful idea, and highly ironic, but not (as I recall) supported by
canon. Wasn't Angel caught on video camera in one of the earlier episodes?
(Or did I hallucinate that one?)
Julia
Arthur Levesque
LC>I had a problem with this ep though - isn't "perfect happiness"
LC>just caused by chemical reactions in the brain? So how come a drug
LC>"mimics" it - if he _feels_ perfectly happy, strikes me it doesn't
LC>matter what the cause is, he is!
He wasn't "perfectly happy", certainly not enough to actually
invoke the curse; but he subconsciously thought he was, and so assumed
the persona of Angelus without actually BECOMING Angelus.
--
/\ Arthur M Levesque 2A4W <*> b...@boog.orgy =/\= http://boog.org __
\B\ack King of the Potato People <fnord> "Ia! Ia! Cthulhu fhtagn!" (oO)
\S\lash Member of a vast right-wing conspiracy (-O-) Urban Spaceman /||\
\/ I was a lesbian before it was fashionable "I hate rainbows!"-EC
Arthur Levesque
WGF>The Captain is, of course, the redoubtable Captain Pausert of
WGF>Nikkeldepain; The Leewit (and every single reference you ever see
WGF>to the book will make a point of telling you, not Leewit, The Leewit)
WGF>is the youngest of the three Karres witches who are his charges, and
WGF>the book is The Witches of Karres. It is a very good book.
I read that at least 20 years ago. I don't remember many details,
but I remember liking it.
pjmc...@gate.net
Lisa Coulter <lcou...@stetson.edu> wrote in message
news:38ECD975...@stetson.edu...
> Interesting ideas. I had a problem with this ep though - isn't "perfect
> happiness" just caused by chemical reactions in the brain? So how come a
> drug "mimics" it - if he _feels_ perfectly happy, strikes me it doesn't
> matter what the cause is, he is!
>
Well, first:
We see that in the Buffyverse there is thought and emotion independant of
matter
(ghosts, spirits) in IOHEFY and any episode with Cordelia's rent controlled
apartment.
Drugs only cause physical happiness, without causing the _spirit_ to feel
happy.
Other possible interpetation:
Rebecca needs a better dealer.
Thomas
Lisa Coulter wrote:
>
> Interesting ideas. I had a problem with this ep though - isn't "perfect
> happiness" just caused by chemical reactions in the brain? So how come a
> drug "mimics" it - if he _feels_ perfectly happy, strikes me it doesn't
> matter what the cause is, he is!
You'd be correct in a purely materialistic universe. However if there is
one thing the b-verse *isn't* it is purely materialistic. Since the curse
involves merging a human soul with a demon and the escape clause specifies
true happiness it makes perfect sense that synthetic happiness won't break
it. In fact I would have had "issues" with it if it had worked.
I say that we saw Angel have his inhibitions and conscience blown to hell
and gone bye a Mickey in his champagne but no soul-lossage occurred.
This means that Angel is a demon with a human soul and thus really does
have good grounds to feel guilty for all the things he did precurse.
After all he is the one who did them...
This means that the calderash knew what they were about when they cursed
him and also makes him a rather more interesting character than the
interpetation that claims that Angel and Angelus are sharply distinct
entities.
Tim Minear
Me>> Not to put too fine a point on it, but Rebecca not only says to Angel,
"Well,
> come on over I'll screen the episode I didn't win the Emmy for." She also
says
> "I'm kidding -- but not about THE INVITATION"
>
Ah, but once again you're quoting the director's cut, not the show as
aired...<<
You're right! Rebecca's last line was cut. But, and please correct me if I'm
wrong, not only does Rebecca say "stop by" but I believe Angel does say "thanks
for the INVITATION." My point is, the word "invitation" was uttered in the
scene in order to make it clear.
CB>>Good to see you about the newsgroup, though. Care to share any other lines
or scenes that we didn't get to see? :-)<<
We were actually 7 and 1/2 minutes long on our first cut (that's nearly an
act's worth of material!). It was painful having to decide what to lose on
this ep. One piece I wish wasn't cut was when Angel and Rebecca are walking
through the gauntlet of photographers at the premiere and she asks him if
she'll be walking by herself when the pictures are developed and Angel explains
that the "we-don't-show-up-in-pictures" thing is a myth that he believes comes
from the truth of vampires not reflecting in mirrors. He says it's "not about
physics, it's about metaphysics."
z
Demented Furby" <Wouldn't you like to know!> wrote:
> : My apologies if you are, indeed, not American.
> :
> ummmm, ummmm, ummmm... seeing a movie, makes you an
> American? interesting ideologies, "friend".. guess if you
> yourself have sat down during Xmas and watched the movie
> from beginning to end, then I guess to you, you're a "Real
> true American"
So, I guess I need to make it a little more clear when I am
joking.
Grumpy Stevens
> that the "we-don't-show-up-in-pictures" thing is a myth that he believes comes
> from the truth of vampires not reflecting in mirrors. He says it's "not about
> physics, it's about metaphysics."
Hah! I was _right_! (sorta). After all, as many single-lens-reflex cameras work by
letting the photographer see a reflection in a mirror (which swings out of the way
just before the exposure is made), all those lensmen would not have seen Angel in
their viewfinders, yet would have seen him on their negatives.
It's a shame that line got lost, Tim, as it gently avoids the large set of tedious
(yet, somehow, compelling...) questions that would otherwise eventually swamp a
good story. If you get the chance, Giles or Wesley could deliver it just as well.
Timothy A. McDaniel
Ferguson <william.geo...@domail.maricopa.edu> took me to task
for failing Spot The Reference. Mea gulpa.
>If you are not familiar with James H. Schmitz, well, that is now
>becoming correctable.
Haven't there been complaints on rec.arts.sf.written about his works
getting edited down for no good cause, or was that another reprinted
writer?
The Demented Furby
"z" <zan16N...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:38a139f2...@usw-ex0110-075.remarq.com...
: In article <8cj6t3$17u$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>, "The
William George Ferguson
>for failing Spot The Reference. Mea gulpa.
>
>>If you are not familiar with James H. Schmitz, well, that is now
>>becoming correctable.
tm...@jump.net (Timothy A. McDaniel) wrote:
>Haven't there been complaints on rec.arts.sf.written about his works
>getting edited down for no good cause, or was that another reprinted
>writer?
It was Schmitz, hence my comment that I had read "Telzey Amberdon"
(the 1st volume of Baen's publishing the complete "Hub" stories) and
that it was not edited to death.
The bulk of the complaints aren't really tied to the reason for the
edits (although some are), but to the fact that there were edits at
all.
As for me, I heartily recommend that, if you aren't familiar with
Schmitz, get "Telzey Amberdon" by all means.
"The Hub" is an area of space with an unusually large number of
Earth-type planets, and is the setting for many, probably most, of
Schmitz' stories. Schmitz had several recurring heroes. The one he
wrote about the most was Telzey Amberdon (a 15/16 year old girl).
Probably the second most was Trigger Argee (a government specialist in
pre-colonization).
The 1st volume (in bookstores now) is "Telzey Amberdon", the 2nd is
"Telzey and Trigger", and the 3rd is "Trigger Argee". I think the 4th
is supposed to have the Nile Etland stories as its centerpiece (Nile
Etland, a marine biologist, only has 2 stories about her that I
remember, but one of them, "The Tuvela", is a novella, and is very
good). The various other "Hub" stories will fill in the slots in the
4 books ("Telzey Amberdon" has 2 non-Telzey stories in it)
The Witches of Karres is not a "Hub" story.
Tim
> Varies by author; many stories have vamps reacting to holy water even
>without being informed that it was holy water (likewise, if belief is the
>issue, than ANY water ought to have that effect if the vamp BELIEVES it to
>be holy water)...
> And how can psychological belief in the potency of stakes cause the
>vamps to instantly turn to dust?
>
You would get vampires mis-quoting the Matrix
"There is no stake"
Tim
<musgravl...@u.arizona.edu.invalid> wrote:
>In article <19588-38...@storefull-233.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
>tro...@webtv.net (Dan Tropea) wrote:
>>I really liked this episode about the same as Buffy. A few
>>inconsistancies though.
>>S
>>p
>>o
>>i
>>l
>>e
>>r
>>
>>S
>>p
>>a
>>c
>>e
>>
>>S
>>'
>>m
>>o
>>r
>>e
>>
>ummmm....*real* vampires don't have time for tv. Louis was a
>fictional character. ;)
>
>
I hate to break it to you, but so is Angel
(I think that might have been a mistake to mention in this crowd)
Tim
<jasonstuckl...@sprint.ca.invalid> wrote:
>I completely believed Cordelia during her speach. As we had
>seen earlier in the episode, she really isn't the greatest
>actress, which makes me think that, even though the "holy" water
>was a fake, who wants to bet that she has a stake in her desk,
>just in case her boss has an off day?
>
>Jason.
>
Makes you think what kind of salary you would have to accept for that
job. Battle the forces of evil, AND worry every morning your boss
might want to slit your throat and feast on the warm plasma inside.
On the plus side, I get the feeling Angel doesn't worry about speed
typing or typos as much as a normal boss, so I guess it balances out
in the end
H.G.Hettinger
Or her unique filing system. :-)
And she apparently can get off when ever she wants to go to an
audition and still have a job to come back to, as well as a friend
that will help her exorcise little old ladies smelling of violets and
aspercreme, as well as rescue her form poverty, vampires, stand by her
through demonic pregnancies, and rush in to keep her from getting her
eyes ripped out. Not the worst kind of job benefit, when you live in
a world full of demons and other nasties.
hgh
Gharlane of Eddore
Ferguson <william.geo...@domail.maricopa.edu> TMCD to task
for failing to Spot The Reference, at which point TMCD commented,
"Mea gulpa."
>
> If you are not familiar with James H. Schmitz, well, that is now
> becoming correctable.
>
In <8clame$m54$1...@news.jump.net> tm...@jump.net writes:
>
> Haven't there been complaints on rec.arts.sf.written about his works
> getting edited down for no good cause, or was that another reprinted
> writer?
>
*eh*.... The two primary editors have messed with only a very small
percentage of the material, and the tweaking at issue was basically
publisher-mandated, a precondition for publication.
I don't *like* it, because I'm a recalcitrant conservative and feel that
even original typos need to be cleared with the writer before being
adjusted by the editor.... but in the absence of the original writer,
and given an editor ( Guy Gordon ) whose familiarity with, and dedication
to, the original material is beyond question... and given an editor who
honestly cares about the material and was willing to tool up to do the
job the best way he'd be allowed to ( Eric ), I believe that the current
editions are Probably A Good Thing. We have enough prior editions in
print that the original forms won't be lost to posterity, should anyone
feel a need to find the Original Unsullied True Word Of Schmitz ( which
frankly, could often have used a bit more editing anyway, much as I dote
on the guy's work... )
In fact, the thing I dislike the most about the new editions is not the
somewhat limited and largely competent editing, but rather the fact that
Baen seems to have a subliterate art department incapable of reading
the stories they're illustrating... and who think that splashing the
"TNT" logo across the top third of a book cover is going to somehow
result in sales.... Those are some *PUTRID* covers, when a bit of
competent art direction could have actively increased the saleability
of the books. ( Heck, remember the Adragna cover for "LEGACY?"
That and Kelly Freas' cover painting for "LION LOOSE," that got used
on the Ace edition of "THE LION GAME," are my two favorite Schmitz
covers. Either of those would have sold a *LOT* more books... )
Right now, the biggest hassle in selling the current editions of the
Schmitz books seems to be the ordering procedures of the conglomerate
bookstores, who've never heard of this "Schmitz" guy, and consequently
only get a few copies to shelve... after all, he's a complete unknown,
so how many could they reasonably expect to sell, right?
*mutter*
Gharlane of Eddore
Bemoaning the Unutterable Rotten-ness of the current Baen cover
paintings, I rhapsodized thusly:
In <8d50cn$e...@news.csus.edu>
ghar...@ccshp1.ccs.csus.edu (Gharlane of Eddore) writes:
>
> ( Heck, remember the Adragna cover for "LEGACY?"
> That and Kelly Freas' cover painting for "LION LOOSE," that got
> used on the Ace edition of "THE LION GAME," are my two favorite
> Schmitz covers.
> Either of those would have sold a *LOT* more books... )
>
I've just been called on this in e-mail; obviously, the John Schoenherr
illustration for the first "Ace" printing of "THE UNIVERSE AGAINST HER,"
from about 37 years ago, is my True Favorite; always has been, always
will be.
I slipped a mental cam and accidentally excluded it from consideration
as "mere" paperback cover artwork....
Riddler
> In article <8cg1ss$9ga$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net>, "The
> Demented Furby" <Wouldn't you like to know!> wrote:
> > hmmmm huh? Never actually saw that movie . ( and I get
> > confused by the benigni film one which I saw . ) it's the
> > same name... almost
>
> Not see "It's A Wonderful Life!" Well, that's downright
> un-American.
I'm an American, and I've never seen It's A Wonderful Life. I've seen clips here and there, but never the whole movie.
I think the best comment I ever heard on the movie came in the "Christmas With The Joker" episode of the animated Batman series. Dick Grayson was just a
little surprised that Bruce Wayne had never seen the movie. Bruce said, "I never could get past the title."
z
<rid...@aye.net> wrote:
> >
> > Not see "It's A Wonderful Life!" Well, that's downright
> > un-American.
> I'm an American, and I've never seen It's A Wonderful
> Life. I've seen clips here and there, but never the whole
> movie.
> I think the best comment I ever heard on the movie came in
> the "Christmas With The Joker" episode of the animated
> Batman series. Dick Grayson was just a little surprised
> that Bruce Wayne had never seen the movie. Bruce said, "I
> never could get past the title."
How I regret not using an emoticon with that statement. I
was joking :-) Though perhaps it should be part of the
written American citizenship test (joke again, ;-))
As for the best "It's A Wonderful Life" references, I have
two. a) The "lost" ending Saturday Night Live did in the
'80's is hysterical. b) the episode of "Friends" when
Phoebe finally sees the endings to all the movies (like "Old
Yeller") that her mother wouldn't let her see because they
were too sad. When she gets around to watching "It's A
Wonderful Life" she turns it off before the end because she
assumes it is a tragedy like all the others. It's very
funny.
Scott Gilbert
"The Demented Furby" <ez...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> "Youth is wasted on the young"... forgot who said it but my
grandma [may she RIP] used
> to love saying it . )
As Spike says, (or as he _would_ say if I was writing the series) "Life
is wasted on the living (OKOKOKOK so it's probably I good thin that I
_don't_ write the series.)
>
> "Sandy McDermin" <smcd...@erols.com> wrote in message
> news:38EAD7D1...@erols.com...
> : Dan Tropea wrote:
> : >
> : > I really liked this episode about the same as Buffy. A few
> : > inconsistancies though.
> : > S
> : > p
> : > o
> : > i
> : > l
> : > e
> : > r
> : >
> : > S
> : > p
> : > a
> : > c
> : > e
> : >
> : > S
> : > '
> : > m
> : > o
> : > r
> : > e
> : >
> : >
> : > 7) Angelus. I wouldn't mind seeing him more often. Is it me or
does
> : > Boreanz seem to enjoy playing as Angelus. He like most villians
tend to
> : > talk to much allowing their victims time to make a counter attack.
> :
> :
> : Since it's a "school night" and way past my bedtime, I'll keep this
> : brief. Just wanted to say that I thought Boreanaz did an excellent
job
> : as Angelus. (Where have they been hiding this guy?!) Not only did
he
> : appear to enjoy being an evil evil-thing, but I suspect he could
nail
> : down an HBO special to rival Dennis Miller.
> :
> : Second, no doubt being 20-something in L.A. must be a r-e-a-l
hardship.
> : (Can you just picture vampires all across Hollywood opening up
> : *Fountain* of Youth clinics? Before you know it, there'd be
infomercials
> : with Connie Selleca and Suzanne Sommers.) Still, I didn't know
whether
> : to laugh or cry. Whatever age Rebecca was going to claim, just add
ten
> : years or more and then start whining. Hey! Maybe *I* should invite
Angel
> : over for a Mickey Finn.
> :
> : Anyway, although slow in the beginning, not a bad episode. (It
lived up
> : to every stereotype I held about L.A. Gotta love that.;)
> :
> : Nite all,
> : Sandy
> :
> : - Old age isn't so bad when you consider the alternative. -Maurice
> : Chevalier
> : - It is sobering to consider that when Mozart was my age he had
already
> : been dead for a year. -Tom Lerer
> : - One should never trust a woman who tells one her real age. A
woman who
> : would tell one that, would tell one anything. -Oscar Wilde
> : - I refuse to admit that I am more than fifty-two, even if that does
> : make my sons illegitimate. -Lady Nancy Astor
> : - Remember that as a teenager you are at the last stage in your life
> : when you will be happy to hear that the phone is for you. -Fran
> : Lebowitz
>
>
--
[Darth Vader moons the rebellion]
<Obi Wan>"That's no moon, that's a space station"
<Han>"It's too big to be a space station"
<Luke>"I've got a bad feeling about this"
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