To all Einstein'ers and GTR'ers here is the very evidence that brakes you theories...the score( E vs N 0:1 )
Mathew Orman
(HP 33120A waveform generator plus CMOS high current pushpull driver).
One sensing coil 10uH connected to the input of high speed comparator 500ps
rise/fall time.
The driving power source frequency set at 1MHz.
Osciloscope HP 54602A channel 1 mentors the ac power waveform and triggers
the scope.
The channel 2 is connected to the output of the comparator.
Set the sensing coil 33 cm from the rectangular coil on axis maximum
coupling.
Store the sensed waveform.
No move the sensing coil to the distance of 3 cm.
Rotate the coil and observe the signal from it.
When you match the amplitude with the stored waveform press the store button
again.
It stores the second waveform.
According to Einstein the should be about 1ns delay between the two
waveforms.
I didn't see the delay.
Mathew Orman
List of reported problems:
----
user:
Minor Crank
last excuse:
You obviously don't have the least inkling of the issues that I
raised concerning causality violation.
Jim Pennino
> One 20 cm 5 turns rectangular coil driven with ac low impedance power source
> (HP 33120A waveform generator plus CMOS high current pushpull driver).
> One sensing coil 10uH connected to the input of high speed comparator 500ps
> rise/fall time.
> The driving power source frequency set at 1MHz.
> Osciloscope HP 54602A channel 1 mentors the ac power waveform and triggers
> the scope.
> The channel 2 is connected to the output of the comparator.
> Set the sensing coil 33 cm from the rectangular coil on axis maximum
> coupling.
> Store the sensed waveform.
> No move the sensing coil to the distance of 3 cm.
> Rotate the coil and observe the signal from it.
> When you match the amplitude with the stored waveform press the store button
> again.
> It stores the second waveform.
> According to Einstein the should be about 1ns delay between the two
> waveforms.
> I didn't see the delay.
> Mathew Orman
> List of reported problems:
Mathew Orman doesn't understand he hasn't a snow ball's chance in hell of
making the measurement with his piece of crap scope.
Suggest he turn off the computer and get a part time job so he can afford
to buy some decent test equipment.
If he's local and asks real nice, I might consider lending him my scope if
he promises to wash his hands before touching it.
--
Jim Pennino
Minor Crank
news:b1i7t0$dbp$1...@news.tpi.pl...
Look, stoopid. Various areas of concern have been raised, which you
have NOT adequately answered.
1) You are attempting to see on the oscilloscope display a
horizontal displacement equal to 1/1000 the wavelength of your
generated waveform. How easily can you see a displacement of 1 pixel
on your computer screen?
2) You are assuming that trigger times will remain exactly constant
throughout the course of your experiment. Try bringing in a third
coil similar to your sensing coil to your rectangular coil. Does the
waveform change as a result of induction effects?
3) You are assuming complete linearity of your sensing system over
roughly a 1000 fold change in power.
4) What happens when you "rotate the coil"? Does rotating the coil
introduce phase changes in the received signal?
5) What about the influence of surrounding conductive objects? The
casing of the oscilloscope? Your workbench? Your soldering iron?
Your body?
Basically you have an uncontrolled experiment using a setup
incapable of recording the required phase changes in an uncontrolled
environment filled with potentially perturbing elements, using
uncontrolled means of altering the separation between coils allowing
experimenter manipulation of the results.
And that's the least of your problems.
Minor Crank
Mathew Orman
news:wG2%9.124522$Ve4.8528@sccrnsc03...
Did you speak with HP application engineer?
Do you know what delayed trigger is?
Do you know the HP's patented technology for precision time varying in the
time base generator?
Do you know how to do precision phase measurements on HP 54602A?
Did you do the experiment?
Mathew Orman
Minor Crank
> Did you speak with HP application engineer?
> Do you know what delayed trigger is?
> Do you know the HP's patented technology for precision time
varying in the
> time base generator?
> Do you know how to do precision phase measurements on HP 54602A?
> Did you do the experiment?
1) How did you measure a horizontal displacement of the waveform
equal to 0.1% of the wavelength? You stated, "I didn't see the
delay." The word "see" implies visual perception. How could you
_possibly_ have seen any delay?
Criticism (2) through (5) ignore the fact that you were incapable of
seeing any phase changes of the expected magnitude in the first
place.
2) Triggering is based on monitoring the ac power waveform. To
believably measure a 0.1% phase change, you need trigger timing
precision of around 0.01%. To achieve 0.01% trigger timing
precision, you need you need comparable stability in trigger voltage
precision. How does "delayed trigger" supposedly achieve this?
3) You are in the "near field" region of the two coils, so 1/r^3 is
not an accurate expression of power fall-off; nevertheless there
should be on the order of three orders of magnitude power difference
between 3 cm and 33 cm, and you expect me to believe you have
complete linearity in your system over that power range?
4) What happens when you "rotate the coil." You apparently held the
sensing coil by hand. Rotating the sensing coil should cause phase
changes in the recieved signal.
5) Nearby conductive objects including hands, body, etc. should have
induced currents, perturbing your results. Nearby ferromagnetic
objects should further perturb the magnetic fields.
6) No, I don't have never used an HP 654602A, but I think you need
some instructions in its use. Speak to Tom Potter. He sells them,
apparently.
7) No, I didn't do the experiment, and if I did, I would certainly
have conducted it better than you.
Repeat the experiment with 500 MHz with the proper controls so that
the expected displacement would be 5% of the wavelength, and maybe
we would have reason to be polite with you. What, you _can't_ do it
at 500 MHz? Not possible to generate or trigger on such frequencies?
Tough Shit. (Isn't that a movie starring somebody or other?)
OK, repeat the experiment with a 50x33 = 16.5 meter separation
between radiating and sensing coils, so that you get an expected
displacement 5% of the wavelength. What, you can't sense the
magnetic field at that distance?
Tough Shit 2. (sequels never seem to be as good at the original, do
they?)
As I stated before, the deficiencies in your experimental setup are
only the _beginning_ of your problems.
.Minor Crank
Minor Crank
> Repeat the experiment with 500 MHz with the proper controls so
that
> the expected displacement would be 5% of the wavelength, and maybe
> we would have reason to be polite with you. What, you _can't_ do
it
> at 500 MHz? Not possible to generate or trigger on such
frequencies?
Sorry, I was in a rush. Repeat at 50 MHz.
Spaceman
"Minor Crank" <blue_whal...@attbi.com> wrote in message news:ppa%9.140615$rM2.55150@rwcrnsc53...
= 7) No, I didn't do the experiment
Ding ding ding!
We have the ignorance trophy winner!
<LOL>
Mathew Orman
Dirty you hand with some real experiment and than come back and tell
as the real story!
Mathew Orman
ps. it is not possible for me to produce pure magnetic field at 50MHz
maybe you know how to do it and tell as all how?
Minor Crank
That was exactly my point, idiot. I _do_ know a little bit about
this things.
Minor Crank.
Mathew Orman
And you are wrong again.
It is very easy to generate 500MHz electromagnetic field and trigger the
scope.
Mathew Orman
Minor Crank
Not to the necessary accuracy. Do you know what slew rates are?
Minor Crank
Mathew Orman
Mathew Orman
Minor Crank
Another buzz word. Parasitic coupling. Get to the gigahertz range,
and you get very paranoid about that sort of shit. What happens when
you just jiggle your wires a little bit around at those frequencies?
You have a benchtop setup with a handheld sensing coil. Your mere
physical presence in the neighborhood is going to introduce all
sorts of distortions in the local fields. You've got standing waves
all over the place.
Not that, as you said, it is possible to generate pure magnetic
fields at that frequency. So stick to the doable frequency ranges,
down in the 1 MHz range. That means you're going to have to be able
to sense the field tens of meters out, and you're going to have to
demonstrate linearity of your system over three+ orders of magnitude
received power, and you're going to have to demonstrate that you can
indeed accurately record phase to the requisite accuracy.
You have done none of that.
Minor Crank
Mathew Orman
You are getting lost in your assumptions.
2m away you will not have usable magnetic field to work with
The magnetic field gradient decays with 1/r^2.
Mathew Orman
Minor Crank
So you can't do it properly. Hmmm....
Minor Crank
Minor Crank
Mathew Orman, discoverer of magnetic monopoles???
Minor Crank
Mathew Orman
What monopoles?
Mathew Orman
(Hildo) news multikabel
Mathew,
Let me explain that for you:
Magnetic field decays with 1/r^4
Magnetic field gradient decays with 1/r^3
A field form a magnetic monopole would decay with 1/r^2
But, as yet, we never found magnetic monopoles.
Hildo
Mathew Orman
news:1044216444.966479@cache1...
So check your gradient calculations for 25 cm square coils in range from the
center to 33cm away.
Mathew Orman
Randy Poe
>
> Mathew Orman doesn't understand he hasn't a snow ball's chance in hell of
> making the measurement with his piece of crap scope.
But he thinks that by posting the same message over and over
in new threads, he'll escape the criticism by those more
knowledgeable about scopes than he.
I can't comment on that. He has shown woeful ignorance of a
lot of simple stuff, like F = ma.
- Randy