Possible Borg fleet: 2 millions cubes SPOILER
PAUL JACQUES H.JR
is about 10,000 Borgs who are in Unimatrix zero. We learned also
from Seven of Nine two things: a) That one Borg out of a million is
infected with the Unimatrix zero anomalie. b) From another episode
(The one with the Borg kids) we learned that a Borg cube has about
5000 drones. From this we can evaluate the number of Borgs and from
that evaluate the possible number of cubes in the ST galaxy.
Number of Borgs: 10,000 * 1,000,000 = 10,000,000,000 = 1E10 Borgs
Number of cubes: 10,000,000,000/5,000 = 2,000,000 = 2E6 cubes
In the SW universe we know that there is about 25,000 ISDs.
So we have 80 cubes for each ISDs. Even if by some kind of
miracle each ISDs could destroy 40 cubes then they would be
40 cubes left for each ISD. Therefore a war between the
Empire and the Borg (capital ships) would result in a victory
by the Borgs, just on numbers.
Strowbridge
Nice of you to conveniently forget about ALL the other ships in the
Imperial Navy. I'd continue this debate except for two thing:
1.) You're not important enough to debate with
2.) I have to pick up my nephew from school
C.S.Strowbridge
Rob Dalton
millions of other starships of the Empire.
Dalton
http://members.xoom.com/Tiny11380/fanfics
http://members.xoom.com/Tiny11380/fuq
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
lordsh...@my-deja.com
attack the Federation. Look Paul, they can have a billion ships if you
want. It won't matter since they never seem to use them for anything.
Hell, if the Borg had any sense or motivation they would rule the ST
galaxy by now. Yet they do not.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Atomik Chicken
news:f9hX4.1478$DT1.2...@carnaval.risq.qc.ca...
> In the season finale episode: Unimatrix zero we learned that there
> is about 10,000 Borgs who are in Unimatrix zero. We learned also
> from Seven of Nine two things: a) That one Borg out of a million is
> infected with the Unimatrix zero anomalie. b) From another episode
> (The one with the Borg kids) we learned that a Borg cube has about
> 5000 drones. From this we can evaluate the number of Borgs and from
> that evaluate the possible number of cubes in the ST galaxy.
> Number of Borgs: 10,000 * 1,000,000 = 10,000,000,000 = 1E10 Borgs
> Number of cubes: 10,000,000,000/5,000 = 2,000,000 = 2E6 cubes
> In the SW universe we know that there is about 25,000 ISDs.
> So we have 80 cubes for each ISDs. Even if by some kind of
> miracle each ISDs could destroy 40 cubes then they would be
> 40 cubes left for each ISD. Therefore a war between the
> Empire and the Borg (capital ships) would result in a victory
> by the Borgs, just on numbers.
>
Of course this assumes all borg drones are on cubes. This did give a good
estimate on the number of drones though, but for the number of ships it
would only give a (loose) upper limit estimate to how many cubes the borg
could crew, not necessarrily how many cubes they have.
Ten billion did seems kind of small for a polulation for such a large
civilization though, but if you consider all the drones are basically part
of the 'military' of the Borg, and none are really civilians, it doesn't
seem as weird. It may also point to the Borg being effecient with manpower
as well, but that is just me speculating.
--
Atomik...@internalorgans.excite.com
Eviscerate to reply.
Common sense is a myth.
pablo_sa...@my-deja.com
he79...@merlin.uqam.ca (PAUL JACQUES H.JR) wrote:
> In the season finale episode: Unimatrix zero we learned that there
> is about 10,000 Borgs who are in Unimatrix zero. We learned also
> from Seven of Nine two things: a) That one Borg out of a million is
> infected with the Unimatrix zero anomalie. b) From another episode
> (The one with the Borg kids) we learned that a Borg cube has about
> 5000 drones. From this we can evaluate the number of Borgs and from
> that evaluate the possible number of cubes in the ST galaxy.
> Number of Borgs: 10,000 * 1,000,000 = 10,000,000,000 = 1E10 Borgs
> Number of cubes: 10,000,000,000/5,000 = 2,000,000 = 2E6 cubes
> In the SW universe we know that there is about 25,000 ISDs.
> So we have 80 cubes for each ISDs. Even if by some kind of
> miracle each ISDs could destroy 40 cubes then they would be
> 40 cubes left for each ISD. Therefore a war between the
> Empire and the Borg (capital ships) would result in a victory
> by the Borgs, just on numbers.
Any fool can tell that you make an erroneus assumption.
You assume that all borg crew cubes.
What about Borg inhabiting their planets? In FC is was said that
billions of borg are on the planetary surface. Gee, that totally made
you look foolish. But I'm someone else already pointed that out. In
this specific instance, of course. One cannot count the number of
names you have been called.
Wedge
Cubes. Numerically, the Borg have the advantage, but the Imps still outgun
the bloody pansy cyborg bitches. Plus the Empire have SSDs, ImpStar Deuces,
Super Deuces, VSDs, fighters etc.
later,
Wedge
PAUL JACQUES H.JR <he79...@merlin.uqam.ca> wrote in message
news:f9hX4.1478$DT1.2...@carnaval.risq.qc.ca...
sea...@my-deja.com
he79...@merlin.uqam.ca (PAUL JACQUES H.JR) wrote:
Hiya Paul.
A lot of people have given you a pretty hard going over
about this...I at least appreciate the effort. Even if
we can't get at a hard figure for the size of the
Borg "fleet" without overlooking something, I do like
that someone's given it a shot.
> In the season finale episode: Unimatrix zero we learned that there
> is about 10,000 Borgs who are in Unimatrix zero. We learned also
> from Seven of Nine two things: a) That one Borg out of a million is
> infected with the Unimatrix zero anomalie. b) From another episode
> (The one with the Borg kids) we learned that a Borg cube has about
> 5000 drones.
Okay, a couple of nits...
Cubeships vary wildly in their crew complements. The first
one the Hansens ran across in "Dark Frontier" crewed over
100,000! And if one runs through a few quick numbers of
the "rows" of alcoves we see in episodes like "Q Who"
along with the known size of the cubeship, a million drones
isn't out of the question.
I tend to think that the standard cubeship is what you
could call an assimilation-specific craft. Think of it this
way: whenever we see Starfleet armadas engage one, the preferred
"weapon" of the cube is its tractor beams. It seems that even
in "First Contact," an outright attack is only the last resort
(note that a Sovereign-class starship like the E-E would've
*immediately* been recognized as its most threatening target
in that battle, for a number of reasons...yet the cube _still_
tried to tractor her).
Anyhow, the cubeship is heavily shielded, but it's not really intended
to go in and slug it out with anyone--note the absence of armor
plating as found on the ablative-hulled tactical sphere in "Drone"
and the "class four tactical cube" in "Unimatrix Zero." So,
while a *standard* drone complement might be 5,000 upon embarking
on an assimilation mission, the cube is intended to be filled up
with newly assimilated people, presumably to the full hundreds of
thousands or low millions capacity.
From this we can evaluate the number of Borgs and from
> that evaluate the possible number of cubes in the ST galaxy.
> Number of Borgs: 10,000 * 1,000,000 = 10,000,000,000 = 1E10 Borgs
Serious problems here:
1. In "Dark Frontier," the Unicomplex contained *trillions* of drones,
at least as reported by Tuvok on approaching the thing.
2. We don't know for sure of Seven's ex-squeeze is entirely accurate
in his assessment of those numbers. Unimatrix 0 is still poorly
understood.
3. Borg have been known to populate planets, like in the alternate
timeline of "FC" and near the end of "Scorpion Pt. I." Those alone
could each be home to billions of drones if not moreso.
> Number of cubes: 10,000,000,000/5,000 = 2,000,000 = 2E6 cubes
Too hard to say. It's clear that the Borg have a very large fleet,
with dense concentrations in their own space. But they also operate
a wide variety of ships, not all of which are anywhere near the level
of a standard cube.
> In the SW universe we know that there is about 25,000 ISDs.
> So we have 80 cubes for each ISDs. Even if by some kind of
> miracle each ISDs could destroy 40 cubes then they would be
> 40 cubes left for each ISD. Therefore a war between the
> Empire and the Borg (capital ships) would result in a victory
> by the Borgs, just on numbers.
>
As I discussed with Aron here sometime back (sorry I never got
back to you Aron!; all I was going to say was, "I agree" <g>),
I'm not sure the Empire and Borg would go to war. The Borg would
find the Empire fascinating technologically...they might not be
able to resist seeking out that "perfection." But I think, given
a good enough demonstration (read: DS), the Empire might be able
to negotiate with the Collective, maybe set some borders and ground
rules.
As for cubeships vs. ISDs, that would _probably_ be the most common
scenario; others have pointed out that ISDs are not the whole of
the Empire's military might, which is true...nonetheless, for your
average, powerful warship, they're going to be the Empire's best bet.
Cubes have been seen more than any other vessel type, so they'd
probably be the best pick, too...
Anyhow, I've talked about this scenario before. *If* the ISDs can
bring their heavy guns to bear--which I qualify, curiously to some
of you I'm sure <g>, only because we've seen engagements when this would
be prudent, yet it *didn't* happen--the cubeship would have a hard
fight on its hands. Not impossible to overcome, but very difficult,
since heavy TL cannons are probably more powerful than any Borg weapon
we've seen (with the possible exception of the sustained disruptor
beams in "Scorpion Pt. II," but there's no way to know), and their
shields would be about equal if I'm remembering things correctly.
If the ISD can only open up with its light batteries, and the Borg
are smart enough to recognize that the ISD is a threat, I vote for
the cubeship.
The thing about the cubeship's defenses is that it varies so wildly
its not even funny...a few volleys from a GCS was sufficient to do
impressive damage to a cube in "Q Who?," yet later in the same
episode any attack was pretty much useless. (My guess has always
been that the cubeship *let* the E-D attack, to better understand
the effect phasers would have on their superstructure *if* their
shields were to fail somehow.)
We know the Borg aren't invincible. Enough raw energy would bring
a cubeship down. But there are cases when a lot of one type of
E, like the deflector discharge in "BoBW," is ineffective, yet
something comparatively much _less_ energetic is able to harm
a cube due to a frequency variance or some other technobabblish crap.
TLs are supposed to be plasma-based and NOT vary in frequency,
so this could be good _or_ bad for the cubeships. That is,
the Federation's raw-power weapon of choice, torpedos, consistently
do jack to Borg shields, yet phaser frequency changes can incur
damage even when the energy of a previously executed phaser freq.
was stopped cold.
I'm getting tired. Was a pretty good episode all in all, I guess,
at least for VOY.
Will
Torak
launchers. Cubes have loads of hull-cutters and things. ISD is outgunned.
And how did you calculate 1 ISD > 200 Cubes? If starfleet needed a fleet to
blow up a cube.... An ISD is not hundreds of times (or, probably, at all)
more powerful than a Sovereign- or Defiant-class starship.
Wedge <nzw...@mail.com> wrote in message
news:95931667...@shelley.paradise.net.nz...
> Only problem is that one Impstar has a firepower evuivalant of over 200
> Cubes. Numerically, the Borg have the advantage, but the Imps still outgun
> the bloody pansy cyborg bitches. Plus the Empire have SSDs, ImpStar
Deuces,
> Super Deuces, VSDs, fighters etc.
>
> later,
> Wedge
>
> PAUL JACQUES H.JR <he79...@merlin.uqam.ca> wrote in message
> news:f9hX4.1478$DT1.2...@carnaval.risq.qc.ca...
> > In the season finale episode: Unimatrix zero we learned that there
> > is about 10,000 Borgs who are in Unimatrix zero. We learned also
> > from Seven of Nine two things: a) That one Borg out of a million is
> > infected with the Unimatrix zero anomalie. b) From another episode
> > (The one with the Borg kids) we learned that a Borg cube has about
> > 5000 drones. From this we can evaluate the number of Borgs and from
> > that evaluate the possible number of cubes in the ST galaxy.
> > Number of Borgs: 10,000 * 1,000,000 = 10,000,000,000 = 1E10 Borgs
> > Number of cubes: 10,000,000,000/5,000 = 2,000,000 = 2E6 cubes
PAUL JACQUES H.JR
: "PAUL JACQUES H.JR" wrote:
:
: > In the season finale episode: Unimatrix zero we learned that there
: > is about 10,000 Borgs who are in Unimatrix zero. We learned also
: > from Seven of Nine two things: a) That one Borg out of a million is
: > infected with the Unimatrix zero anomalie. b) From another episode
: > (The one with the Borg kids) we learned that a Borg cube has about
: > 5000 drones. From this we can evaluate the number of Borgs and from
: > that evaluate the possible number of cubes in the ST galaxy.
: > Number of Borgs: 10,000 * 1,000,000 = 10,000,000,000 = 1E10 Borgs
: > Number of cubes: 10,000,000,000/5,000 = 2,000,000 = 2E6 cubes
: > In the SW universe we know that there is about 25,000 ISDs.
: > So we have 80 cubes for each ISDs. Even if by some kind of
: > miracle each ISDs could destroy 40 cubes then they would be
: > 40 cubes left for each ISD. Therefore a war between the
: > Empire and the Borg (capital ships) would result in a victory
: > by the Borgs, just on numbers.
: Nice of you to conveniently forget about ALL the other ships in the
: Imperial Navy. I'd continue this debate except for two thing:
: 1.) You're not important enough to debate with
You mean that you would loose.
: 2.) I have to pick up my nephew from school
That is a good excuse!
sea...@my-deja.com
"Atomik Chicken" <atomik...@excite.com> wrote:
> PAUL JACQUES H.JR <he79...@merlin.uqam.ca> wrote in message
> news:f9hX4.1478$DT1.2...@carnaval.risq.qc.ca...
> > is about 10,000 Borgs who are in Unimatrix zero. We learned also
> > from Seven of Nine two things: a) That one Borg out of a million is
> > infected with the Unimatrix zero anomalie. b) From another episode
> > (The one with the Borg kids) we learned that a Borg cube has about
> > 5000 drones. From this we can evaluate the number of Borgs and from
> > that evaluate the possible number of cubes in the ST galaxy.
> > Number of Borgs: 10,000 * 1,000,000 = 10,000,000,000 = 1E10 Borgs
> > Number of cubes: 10,000,000,000/5,000 = 2,000,000 = 2E6 cubes
> > In the SW universe we know that there is about 25,000 ISDs.
> > So we have 80 cubes for each ISDs. Even if by some kind of
> > miracle each ISDs could destroy 40 cubes then they would be
> > 40 cubes left for each ISD. Therefore a war between the
> > Empire and the Borg (capital ships) would result in a victory
> > by the Borgs, just on numbers.
> >
>
good
> estimate on the number of drones though, but for the number of ships
it
> would only give a (loose) upper limit estimate to how many cubes the
borg
> could crew, not necessarrily how many cubes they have.
> Ten billion did seems kind of small for a polulation for such a large
> civilization though, but if you consider all the drones are basically
part
> of the 'military' of the Borg, and none are really civilians, it
doesn't
> seem as weird. It may also point to the Borg being effecient with
manpower
> as well, but that is just me speculating.
>
> --
> Atomik...@internalorgans.excite.com
> Eviscerate to reply.
>
> Common sense is a myth.
Eviscerate...I love that word : )
Your speculation is very good, Atom; only thing is, there
were several trillion Borg at the Unicomplex alone ("Dark Frontier Pt.
II"), not to mention probably billions on each planet they occupy.
This seems like yet another VOY inconsistency...but I suppose it
could rather easily be chalked up to Seven's squeeze being wrong
about how many drones have the "mutation." Maybe only one in a billion
has it, or perhaps the number that actually go to U0 is much higher
and the main U0 group is simply unaware of them--the place did appear
rather large after all.
iceberg3k
there
>: > is about 10,000 Borgs who are in Unimatrix zero. We learned
also
>: > from Seven of Nine two things: a) That one Borg out of a
million is
>: > infected with the Unimatrix zero anomalie. b) From another
episode
>: > (The one with the Borg kids) we learned that a Borg cube has
about
>: > 5000 drones. From this we can evaluate the number of Borgs
and from
>: > that evaluate the possible number of cubes in the ST galaxy.
>: > Number of Borgs: 10,000 * 1,000,000 = 10,000,000,000 = 1E10
Borgs
>: > Number of cubes: 10,000,000,000/5,000 = 2,000,000 = 2E6
cubes
>: > In the SW universe we know that there is about 25,000 ISDs.
>: > So we have 80 cubes for each ISDs. Even if by some kind of
>: > miracle each ISDs could destroy 40 cubes then they would be
>: > 40 cubes left for each ISD. Therefore a war between the
>: > Empire and the Borg (capital ships) would result in a
victory
>: > by the Borgs, just on numbers.
>: Nice of you to conveniently forget about ALL the other ships
in the
>: Imperial Navy. I'd continue this debate except for two thing:
>
>Beside the 25,000 SDs there is no proof of more.
The official literature describes them.
>: 1.) You're not important enough to debate with
>
>You mean that you would loose.
No, he means that you have proven that you will simply use the
fallacious argument form "argumentum ad repetitio ad nauseum" and
it's not worth it to debate you.
Honestly, Paul. People aren't leaving debates with you because
you're a good debater (you're not) or that your points are
particularly valid (they aren't). It's because you repeatedly
claim the exact same points no matter how many times somebody
else refutes them, until everybody else gives up and leaves in
utter disgust.
Grow up.
-- M.
-a.r.k, a.s.v.s
-"Don't worry, I'm just going to destroy everything." - Ryo Gunn
sea...@my-deja.com
"Wedge" <nzw...@mail.com> wrote:
> Only problem is that one Impstar has a firepower evuivalant of over
200
> Cubes.
It does? How so?
Numerically, the Borg have the advantage, but the Imps still outgun
> the bloody pansy cyborg bitches. Plus the Empire have SSDs, ImpStar
Deuces,
> Super Deuces, VSDs, fighters etc.
>
> later,
> Wedge
The Borg would say quite correctly, "Fighters are irrelevant."
Now, let's look at all this objectively, my Rogue Squadron friend ; )
I don't know how you arrived at the 200 cubes = 1 Star Destroyer figure,
but I beg to differ.
In "BoBW," 40 starships were unable to harm a cubeship. We saw the same
number of ships, approximately, doing damage to a cubeship's outer
hull; nonetheless, we have no indication of how many starships had
been engaging the cubeship *before* the E-E arrived on the scene,
and the battle *had* been waged for several hours prior to that
point so a much greater number of ships is likely.
Anyhow...
Picard's unique knowledge of the Collective was the only thing that
allowed Starfleet to win that battle. As the novelization of "First
Contact" elucidates, Picard heard the Borg talking about a shield loss
on a point of the cubeship--where he directed the fleet to attack
despite Data's incredulity at that coordinate's significance.
("The coordinates you have indicated do not appear to be a vital
system..." "Trust me, Data.") So to judge the battle on what
we see onscreen alone is a Hasty Generalization fallacy, not
unlike claiming that an ISD's shields can't repel a 70m wide
asteroid w/ 500 TJ of KE.
From the figures I've done, a cubeship's shielding can easily withstand
several million terajoules. "BoBW"'s deflector incident is a good
example of a canon "figure." LaForge said that the deflector discharge
would deliver "more energy than our phasers and photon torpedos could
ever provide"; ignoring phaser energy *completely* for a lower-limit
figure, and taking the torpedo inventory of 250 ("Conundrums") rather
than something greater in spite of what Geordi said--I repeat,
"MORE energy..."--the lowest possible number we have may be
the following:
1 photorp @ 64.4 MT/270,000 TJ, minus 50% for effective yield
against cube, minus additional 26% for warhead efficiency losses:
99900 TJ, or ~23.8 MT. 23.8 MT*250 full inventory = 5.95 GT,
or ~25 million TJ. This beam was discharged over a period of
roughly five seconds or less, so the corresponding power against
the cubeship would be 5 million TW. It didn't do jack shit, if
you remember that episode. Locutus just stood there, perfectly
still, and resumed talking to the E-D crew like nothing had happened.
Notes:
1-The TM, which is only official, indicates the full photorp inventory
at 275; the disparity between this and "Conundrums" could easily
be accounted for by probes.
2,3,&4-I took considerable pains to make the above figure as
conservative as possible. Not only did I assume that Geordi's
statement only referred to the E-D's full photorp inventory when he
claimed the deflector beam would be _more_ powerful than anything in
their arsenal, ignoring phasers completely, I also assumed that he meant
photon torpedos in their least energetic sense; i.e., AFTER
efficiency losses and effective tactical yield considerations were
taken into account. For all we know, LaForge could've meant
that the deflector attack would deliver more power than the TOTAL,
not effective, release, which would render my number doubled right
off the bat--that is, 10 million TW for the sustained attack against
the cubeship for a total of 50 million TJ delivered.
If a cubeship can stand up to *that* without much trouble--which
it did, with no problems whatsoever--then it could also stand
up to nearly seventeen *thousand* light turbolaser hits @ 3,000 TJ/
bolt. If an ISD has about 100 of such weapons, and all of them
have a refire rate of once per second, the cubeship could sit
perfectly still and do nothing for about 3 minutes whilst the SD
wailed at it nonstop, and still nothing would happen.
Note I qualify light guns because at the Battle of Endor, we saw
ships about as long as a Borg cube is wide (Home One?) fighting
that weren't being attacked with the heavy cannons. The medical
frigate that went up against Executor shouldn't have been out
of the firing arc of at least *some* of that ship's heavy guns,
yet Executor only fired with light batteries, etc., etc. I've
heard people claim numerous times that the Rebel and Imperial
fleets at Endor were exchanging fire from the beginning, citing
the explosions and "flak bursts" seen from the Emperor's throne
room, but that's, with all respect to the truly brilliant people
that've said so, actually bullshit. (I am sincere in the brilliant
remark. I'm not trying to be hostile...anyone that stumbles across
this, understand, damn it! <g>) Why do I say this? Simple--canon
overrides less canon. The movie itself is higher up in canonicity
than the novel. And in the _movie_, Admiral Piett said:
"We're in attack position now, sir."
"Hold here."
"...We're not going to attack?"
"I have my orders from the Emperor himself. He has something special
planned for them [the Rebels]."
The smallish explosions we saw from the throne room were FIGHTERS
engaging each other. The movie made it explicitly clear that
the Star Destroyers were NOT firing their heavy guns. If you
still doubt, either rewatch, or listen to this quote from Londo:
<imitating best Londo voice>
"Only the fighters are engaging us. I wonder what those Star
Destroyers are waiting for..."
So, no heavy guns at long range OR close range. I say this would
be for some unforeseen limitation in the heavy cannons. Perhaps
they can only fire after some kind of preparatory work, dropping
shields, taking something offline--I have no idea. But we know
they have to be ultra-powerful for BDZ ops, so there you go...
draw what conclusions you may <g>
Anyway, gotta go. More later I hope.
Strowbridge
>
> Strowbridge (strow...@home.com) wrote:
> : "PAUL JACQUES H.JR" wrote:
> :
> : > In the season finale episode: Unimatrix zero we learned that there
> : > is about 10,000 Borgs who are in Unimatrix zero. We learned also
> : > from Seven of Nine two things: a) That one Borg out of a million is
> : > infected with the Unimatrix zero anomalie. b) From another episode
> : > (The one with the Borg kids) we learned that a Borg cube has about
> : > 5000 drones. From this we can evaluate the number of Borgs and from
> : > that evaluate the possible number of cubes in the ST galaxy.
> : > Number of Borgs: 10,000 * 1,000,000 = 10,000,000,000 = 1E10 Borgs
> : > Number of cubes: 10,000,000,000/5,000 = 2,000,000 = 2E6 cubes
> : > In the SW universe we know that there is about 25,000 ISDs.
> : > So we have 80 cubes for each ISDs. Even if by some kind of
> : > miracle each ISDs could destroy 40 cubes then they would be
> : > 40 cubes left for each ISD. Therefore a war between the
> : > Empire and the Borg (capital ships) would result in a victory
> : > by the Borgs, just on numbers.
> :
> : Nice of you to conveniently forget about ALL the other ships in the
> : Imperial Navy. I'd continue this debate except for two thing:
>
> Beside the 25,000 SDs there is no proof of more.
HUH? Are you saying there is no proof that the Imperial Navy has ANY
ships besides the 25,000 SDs?
> : 1.) You're not important enough to debate with
>
> You mean that you would loose.
Nope, as others will debate with you.
> : 2.) I have to pick up my nephew from school
>
> That is a good excuse!
Not an excuse, it's the truth.
C.S.Strowbridge
Strowbridge
> Honestly, Paul. People aren't leaving debates with you because
> you're a good debater (you're not) or that your points are
> particularly valid (they aren't). It's because you repeatedly
> claim the exact same points no matter how many times somebody
> else refutes them, until everybody else gives up and leaves in
> utter disgust.
Plus, we have the ASVS R&R which catalogs old debates. This allows us to
quickly show newbies how the debates went and where you are wrong
without debating you.
C.S.Strowbridge
pablo_sa...@my-deja.com
"Torak" <to...@andrew-perry.com> wrote:
> ISDs carry 60 turbolaser batteries, 60 ion cannons, and a few proton
torp
> launchers. Cubes have loads of hull-cutters and things. ISD is
outgunned.
> And how did you calculate 1 ISD > 200 Cubes? If starfleet needed a
fleet to
> blow up a cube.... An ISD is not hundreds of times (or, probably, at
all)
> more powerful than a Sovereign- or Defiant-class starship.
Actually... they kind of are that much more powerful.
Anyway, ST weapons are vastly inferior to SW. The same goes for
shields, logistical support, economic base, and technological base.
Basically, all ST has going for it is their finicky, unstable, almost
totally useless in a real battle, transporter system.
[snip]
pablo_sa...@my-deja.com
sea...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <95931667...@shelley.paradise.net.nz>,
> "Wedge" <nzw...@mail.com> wrote:
> > Only problem is that one Impstar has a firepower evuivalant of over
> 200
> > Cubes.
>
> It does? How so?
Weapons power is much much higher. According to Michael Wong (you may
disregard this as you like) a heavy turbolaser unleashes 72 million TJ,
and can fire 1 time every 2 seconds. He also says that a light
turbolaser fires 580,000 TJ, and can fire once per second. Again, you
may choose to disregard this, owing to the ST perception of a bias
hanging over Wong's head, preventing him from using rational thought
processes.
> Numerically, the Borg have the advantage, but the Imps still outgun
> > the bloody pansy cyborg bitches. Plus the Empire have SSDs, ImpStar
> Deuces,
> > Super Deuces, VSDs, fighters etc.
> >
> > later,
> > Wedge
>
> The Borg would say quite correctly, "Fighters are irrelevant."
Then, they would recieve a photon torpedo enema, courtesy of the
Imperial Fighter Corps.
> Now, let's look at all this objectively, my Rogue Squadron friend ; )
> I don't know how you arrived at the 200 cubes = 1 Star Destroyer
figure,
> but I beg to differ.
>
> In "BoBW," 40 starships were unable to harm a cubeship. We saw the
same
> number of ships, approximately, doing damage to a cubeship's outer
> hull; nonetheless, we have no indication of how many starships had
> been engaging the cubeship *before* the E-E arrived on the scene,
> and the battle *had* been waged for several hours prior to that
> point so a much greater number of ships is likely.
>
> Anyhow...
> Picard's unique knowledge of the Collective was the only thing that
> allowed Starfleet to win that battle. As the novelization of "First
> Contact" elucidates, Picard heard the Borg talking about a shield loss
> on a point of the cubeship--where he directed the fleet to attack
> despite Data's incredulity at that coordinate's significance.
> ("The coordinates you have indicated do not appear to be a vital
> system..." "Trust me, Data.") So to judge the battle on what
> we see onscreen alone is a Hasty Generalization fallacy, not
> unlike claiming that an ISD's shields can't repel a 70m wide
> asteroid w/ 500 TJ of KE.
Still, the fleet managed to hurt the Cube enough to cause shield loss,
even without concentrating their fire.
The heavy turbolasers were not in use, because the Emperor wanted to
take out each large Rebel ship with the use of the Superlaser, which
would satisfy his desire for a symbolic, as well as very real victory.
The TIEs were deployed to keep the Rebel fighters busy.
iceberg3k
equaled the Empire's DAILY cargo capacity.
Rog
iceberg3k <mberg...@vax2.winona.msus.edu> wrote in message
news:1ceb91a9...@usw-ex0105-036.remarq.com...
> The Federation would be lucky if its ANNUAL cargo capacity
> equaled the Empire's DAILY cargo capacity.
It wouldnt come anywhere near it. Actually the 51 million world empire
probably ships more cargo in one day than the 150 world federation has done
in its entire life time.
--
Rog
"Do unto others what they do unto you, but do it first if applicable"
ASVS Mastermind Website: www.Slaanesh.Freeserve.co.uk/quiz.htm
Captain Gingerbeard
Strowbridge <strow...@home.com> wrote in message
news:392EDA25...@home.com...
> Rog wrote:
> >
> > iceberg3k <mberg...@vax2.winona.msus.edu> wrote
>
> > > The Federation would be lucky if its ANNUAL cargo capacity
> > > equaled the Empire's DAILY cargo capacity.
> >
> > It wouldnt come anywhere near it. Actually the 51 million world empire
> > probably ships more cargo in one day than the 150 world federation has
> > done in its entire life time.
>
> requirements for that planet is probably more than the Federation can
> ship in a year.
And, judging by the Emperor's age, the sewage out of the Imperial
Palace in one night will be greater than that of the Federation ever!
Strowbridge
> > The Federation would be lucky if its ANNUAL cargo capacity
> > equaled the Empire's DAILY cargo capacity.
>
> It wouldnt come anywhere near it. Actually the 51 million world empire
> probably ships more cargo in one day than the 150 world federation has
> done in its entire life time.
Considering there are 9 Trillion people on Coursucant the daily food
requirements for that planet is probably more than the Federation can
ship in a year.
C.S.Strowbridge
Jonathan Boyd
strow...@home.com:
Thin of the tribbles you could grow with that much quatro-triticale.
--
Jonathan
AIM: BoydClone | STvsSW website: http://www.jboyd.co.uk/index.html
Little Johnny was a scientist.
Little Johnny is no more.
For what he thought was H2O was H2SO4.
iceberg3k
>: In article <AZvX4.1807$DT1.2...@carnaval.risq.qc.ca>,
>: The official literature describes them.
>
>The 25,000 SDs is described in Specter of the Past. BTW they are
200 SDs
>now.
Yes. The Imp fleet once had 25,000 Imperator-class destroyers.
This excludes EVERY OTHER CLASS OF CAPITAL SHIP including but not
limited to Victory-class light destroyers, Dreadnaught-class
cruisers, Nebulon-class frigates, Allegiance-class cruisers,
Sovereign-class battleships and Executor- and Eclipse-class
commandships.
>: >: 1.) You're not important enough to debate with
>: >
>: >You mean that you would loose.
>:
>: No, he means that you have proven that you will simply use the
>: fallacious argument form "argumentum ad repetitio ad nauseum"
and
>: it's not worth it to debate you.
>
>You mean arguments that questions the so called rules of the
FAQ.
>What is good for SW is good for ST! That is why you have
>difficulty in debating with me.
Allow me to explain what "argumentum ad repetitio ad nauseum"
means: It means arguing by repeating the same point until your
opponents are sick to their stomach. You have honed this to a
sharp point.
>: Honestly, Paul. People aren't leaving debates with you
because
>: you're a good debater (you're not) or that your points are
>: particularly valid (they aren't). It's because you repeatedly
>: claim the exact same points no matter how many times somebody
>: else refutes them, until everybody else gives up and leaves in
>: utter disgust.
>
>LOL! Translated it means: Basically what YOU don't like about
>me is you CAN'T find valid arguments to REFUTE my claims.
Because
>doing so would show FLAWS in the FAQ.
No, it means that what I don't like about you is that YOU DON'T
ADMIT WHEN YOU'RE WRONG, even when ten people are telling you,
"Shut the fuck up, Paul, you're wrong."
>: Grow up.
>
>Comming from a CHILD! LOL!
I may be younger than you chronologically (and I even doubt
that), but you have repeatedly proven that you are LESS mature
than I am.
-- M.
-a.r.k, a.s.v.s
-"The God of Death is back from Hell!" - Duo Maxwell
iceberg3k
"anything that agrees with Paul's opinions."
Dalton
[snip]
Your calcs are lost, and your thread is failed. Surrender now and we
*MIGHT* consider leniency. Continue, and we will burn you out of the sky
with our superior firepower.
--
Dalton
[snip]
> : The official literature describes them.
>
> The 25,000 SDs is described in Specter of the Past. BTW they are 200 SDs
> now.
>
And you fail to include the many, many, many other ships such as
Dreadnaughts, Nebulon-Bs, VSDs, Corellian Corvettes and Star Galleons.
> : >: 1.) You're not important enough to debate with
> : >
> : >You mean that you would loose.
> :
> : No, he means that you have proven that you will simply use the
> : fallacious argument form "argumentum ad repetitio ad nauseum" and
> : it's not worth it to debate you.
>
> You mean arguments that questions the so called rules of the FAQ.
> What is good for SW is good for ST! That is why you have
> difficulty in debating with me.
>
We have difficulty translating your posts.
> : Honestly, Paul. People aren't leaving debates with you because
> : you're a good debater (you're not) or that your points are
> : particularly valid (they aren't). It's because you repeatedly
> : claim the exact same points no matter how many times somebody
> : else refutes them, until everybody else gives up and leaves in
> : utter disgust.
>
> LOL! Translated it means: Basically what YOU don't like about
> me is you CAN'T find valid arguments to REFUTE my claims. Because
> doing so would show FLAWS in the FAQ.
>
Your ego is too big for your head. Better shrink it a bit before it
destroys you.
> : Grow up.
>
> Comming from a CHILD! LOL!
There is a difference between mental maturity and physical maturity. And
right now, you have a mindset akin to that of a ten year old fanboy.
Too bad, so sad, you lose. Bye Paul!
Atomik Chicken
> In article <oBoX4.933$%01.7...@news.uswest.net>,
> "Atomik Chicken" <atomik...@excite.com> wrote:
> > PAUL JACQUES H.JR <he79...@merlin.uqam.ca> wrote in message
> > news:f9hX4.1478$DT1.2...@carnaval.risq.qc.ca...
> > > is about 10,000 Borgs who are in Unimatrix zero. We learned also
> > > from Seven of Nine two things: a) That one Borg out of a million is
> > > infected with the Unimatrix zero anomalie. b) From another episode
> > > (The one with the Borg kids) we learned that a Borg cube has about
> > > 5000 drones. From this we can evaluate the number of Borgs and from
> > > that evaluate the possible number of cubes in the ST galaxy.
> > > Number of Borgs: 10,000 * 1,000,000 = 10,000,000,000 = 1E10 Borgs
> > > Number of cubes: 10,000,000,000/5,000 = 2,000,000 = 2E6 cubes
> > > In the SW universe we know that there is about 25,000 ISDs.
> > > So we have 80 cubes for each ISDs. Even if by some kind of
> > > miracle each ISDs could destroy 40 cubes then they would be
> > > 40 cubes left for each ISD. Therefore a war between the
> > > Empire and the Borg (capital ships) would result in a victory
> > > by the Borgs, just on numbers.
> > >
> >
> good
> > estimate on the number of drones though, but for the number of ships
> it
> > would only give a (loose) upper limit estimate to how many cubes the
> borg
> > could crew, not necessarrily how many cubes they have.
> > Ten billion did seems kind of small for a polulation for such a large
> > civilization though, but if you consider all the drones are basically
> part
> > of the 'military' of the Borg, and none are really civilians, it
> doesn't
> > seem as weird. It may also point to the Borg being effecient with
> manpower
> > as well, but that is just me speculating.
> >
> > --
> > Atomik...@internalorgans.excite.com
> > Eviscerate to reply.
> >
> > Common sense is a myth.
>
> Eviscerate...I love that word : )
>
> Your speculation is very good, Atom; only thing is, there
> were several trillion Borg at the Unicomplex alone ("Dark Frontier Pt.
> II"), not to mention probably billions on each planet they occupy.
>
I can't remember that far back : )
But you make sense as well.
> This seems like yet another VOY inconsistency...but I suppose it
> could rather easily be chalked up to Seven's squeeze being wrong
> about how many drones have the "mutation." Maybe only one in a billion
> has it, or perhaps the number that actually go to U0 is much higher
> and the main U0 group is simply unaware of them--the place did appear
> rather large after all.
>
True, something like that would make sense as well.
Eric
<jona...@jboyd.co.uk> wrote:
>Our spies intercepted the following article from Strowbridge at
>strow...@home.com:
>
>> Rog wrote:
>>>
>>> iceberg3k <mberg...@vax2.winona.msus.edu> wrote
>>
>>>> The Federation would be lucky if its ANNUAL cargo capacity
>>>> equaled the Empire's DAILY cargo capacity.
>>>
>>> It wouldnt come anywhere near it. Actually the 51 million world empire
>>> probably ships more cargo in one day than the 150 world federation has
>>> done in its entire life time.
>>
>> Considering there are 9 Trillion people on Coursucant the daily food
>> requirements for that planet is probably more than the Federation can
>> ship in a year.
>
>Thin of the tribbles you could grow with that much quatro-triticale.
Imps wouldn't have any problem slaughtering tribbles like the
wishy-washy Federation officers. :)
Eric
remove NO.SPAM.DAMMIT to mail
"Sufficiently advanced technology is often indistinguishable
from magic." Clarke's Third Law
Alex Moon
filthy lies, murderous slander, ignorant ramblings, oh, and this post as well...
>In article <8gmbfl$eup$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> pablo_sa...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> In article <8gm7gq$bn0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
>> sea...@my-deja.com wrote:
>> > In article <95931667...@shelley.paradise.net.nz>,
>> > "Wedge" <nzw...@mail.com> wrote:
>> > > Only problem is that one Impstar has a firepower evuivalant of
>over
>> > 200
>> > > Cubes.
>> >
>> > It does? How so?
>>
>> Weapons power is much much higher. According to Michael Wong (you may
>> disregard this as you like) a heavy turbolaser unleashes 72 million
>TJ,
>> and can fire 1 time every 2 seconds. He also says that a light
>> turbolaser fires 580,000 TJ, and can fire once per second. Again, you
>> may choose to disregard this, owing to the ST perception of a bias
>> hanging over Wong's head, preventing him from using rational thought
>> processes.
>>
>
>I never disregard anything on the basis of mere bias, my own or that
>which is perceived of Mike (see below). Check out some of my older
>posts...many Warsies and Trekkies alike consider me relatively
>reasonable.
>
>I have tremendous respect for Mike W. and almost all of his figures...
>I think he's at least on the right track insofar as TLs are concerned.
>
>Nevertheless, I have to ask again: why does this mean that _exactly_
>40 cubes are equal to one Star Destroyer? Where are the figures
>that suggest this? I've never seen them, and for good reason:
>they do not, and cannot, exist; at least, they can't be _valid_,
>even if someone's cooked up some number.
>
>The truth is, we have no bloody idea how much firepower a cubeship
>might have. Against Federation fleets, the cubes have usually pulled
>their punches for the most part. Compare the weapons used by
>the cubeship in "First Contact" to those in "Scorpion, Pt. II."
>In "First Contact," we see one or maybe a _few_ disruptor pulses
>coming from the cubeship. For the most part, what do we see? <g>
>Ding, ding, ding! You're right--tractor beams. Hardly a weapon
>of choice...the cubeship and drones crewing it probably believed
>they could still win the battle, at least until Picard stepped in.
>
>Fast-forward to "Scorp II." Against 8472, the cubes used a huge,
>sustained greenish beam, presumably some kind of disruptor. These
>beams were *wide*, on the order of several hundred meters; if we
>assume that the discharge was as coherent as possible--a definite
>plus when trying to damage a bioship, or any ship for that
>matter--then that suggests it is more powerful than anything used
>against Starfleet armadas. A bigger bullet is, after all, usually
>going to hurt more than a small one, especially when that bigger
>bullet is somehow able to move at the same speed.
>
>> > Numerically, the Borg have the advantage, but the Imps still outgun
>> > > the bloody pansy cyborg bitches. Plus the Empire have SSDs,
>ImpStar
>> > Deuces,
>> > > Super Deuces, VSDs, fighters etc.
>> > >
>> > > later,
>> > > Wedge
>> >
>> > The Borg would say quite correctly, "Fighters are irrelevant."
>>
>> Then, they would recieve a photon torpedo enema, courtesy of the
>> Imperial Fighter Corps.
>
>Photons? <g>
>
>Seriously, I agree with the Borg. Fighters _are_ irrelevant for
>the most part. Their beams aren't powerful enough to do anything
>to the cubeship, even an unshielded one. Perhaps with _huge_
>missiles, some of the smaller boats could go in and do some damage
>after the Borg shields started to fail. Otherwise, I don't see
>how they'd be very helpful.
>
They can fill an area with more targets, dividing the Borg's fire. Plus, ships
like the advanced, gunboat, defender, would have enough strength to do some
damage on key systems, especially with Ion cannons. Same thing for Rebel
fighters. Big ships rip the hell out of the shields, while smaller craft slip
in and take out key systems such as weapons grids, shield grids, sensors, power
conduits, etc...
>> > Anyhow...
>> > Picard's unique knowledge of the Collective was the only thing that
>> > allowed Starfleet to win that battle. As the novelization of "First
>> > Contact" elucidates, Picard heard the Borg talking about a shield
>loss
>> > on a point of the cubeship--where he directed the fleet to attack
>> > despite Data's incredulity at that coordinate's significance.
>> > ("The coordinates you have indicated do not appear to be a vital
>> > system..." "Trust me, Data.") So to judge the battle on what
>> > we see onscreen alone is a Hasty Generalization fallacy, not
>> > unlike claiming that an ISD's shields can't repel a 70m wide
>> > asteroid w/ 500 TJ of KE.
>>
>> Still, the fleet managed to hurt the Cube enough to cause shield loss,
>> even without concentrating their fire.
>
>That's true. Do remember, however, that the cubeship had been engaged
>for several hours at least (from the Typhon sector all the
>way to Earth, through which system we saw the first cube slow to
>impulse at the outer planets in "BoBW"). That's plenty of time
>to completely pummel the thing with tons of photon torpedos
>and alternating phaser frequencies.
>
True
>>
>> The heavy turbolasers were not in use, because the Emperor wanted to
>> take out each large Rebel ship with the use of the Superlaser, which
>> would satisfy his desire for a symbolic, as well as very real victory.
>> The TIEs were deployed to keep the Rebel fighters busy.
>
>That's cute of Palpatine, if almost totally moronic.
>
Considering that word of the Rebels defeat would have silenced any opposition,
and put the galaxy firmly under his control, it wasn't a bad plan. Remember, if
you want to make sure noone dares to build a fleet and attack your superweapon,
especially if said persons might include imperial commanders, then what better
way than a demonstration of how truly dangerous you weapon is?
>When the Rebels closed in on the Imperial fleet and "tried to take
>some of them with us," why did those ships not then start using
>their heavy batteries? Moreover, with all respect to you--you're
>a reasonable debater, that's obvious--what is the source of
>the Emperor/superlaser plan?
ROTJ movie.
[Imperial Officer] We're in position sir, shall I order the fleet to attack?
[Piett] Tell the fleet to hold position. I have my orders from the Emperor
himself; he has a little suprise planned for the rebels.
[Emperor to Luke] ...now witness the power of this fully armed and operational
battlestation.
> If it's the novelization of RoTJ,
>that's odd, given that the same novel described a long-range
>fire exchange that didn't happen in the film. So, again assuming
>the novel is the source, that'd be one instance of heavy guns
>being fired, and then another, not being fired. Just a guess on my
>part, though; further input is required, at your leisure.
>
>Will
>
Once the Rebels started to move towards the Imperial fleet, the commanders would
have ordered their own ships to fire, to turn the Rebels back.
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
-Alex Moon
_ _ _
KNOW THIS. I HAVE WATCHED YOUR PETTY BICKERING LONG ENOUGH. NOW, I SHALL
RENDER JUDGEMENT. LET IT BE WRITTEN THAT GOD IS A STAR WARS FAN.
-GOD
Well gang, I hate to be the one to have to say "I told you so", but I told
you so.
-Chuck
Alex Moon
<ja...@student.canterbury.ac.nz> filled our newsgroup with filthy lies,
murderous slander, ignorant ramblings, oh, and this post as well...
>Dalton wrote:
>
>> And you fail to include the many, many, many other ships such as
>> Dreadnaughts, Nebulon-Bs, VSDs, Corellian Corvettes and Star Galleons.
>
>ISDs seem to be far and away the most common ship in the Imperial fleet,
>and are much larger than any of the above, so their contribution to any
>conflict isn't especially significant. Certainly not given that these
>calcs put cubes outnumbering ISDs by 80 to 1.
Ask around and people will give you the names of the official sources which put
the rest of the imperial fleet in the milllions
>
>Now I'll grant you that the calcs have some big flaws. It ignores Borg
>on planets, and assumes a pretty low complement per cube. But even if we
>have half of all Borg planetside, and quadruple the crew complement,
>this is still a 10:1 advantage to the Borg.
PAUL JACQUES H.JR
: "PAUL JACQUES H.JR" wrote:
: >
: > Strowbridge (strow...@home.com) wrote:
: > : "PAUL JACQUES H.JR" wrote:
: > :
: > : > is about 10,000 Borgs who are in Unimatrix zero. We learned also
: > : > from Seven of Nine two things: a) That one Borg out of a million is
: > : > infected with the Unimatrix zero anomalie. b) From another episode
: > : > (The one with the Borg kids) we learned that a Borg cube has about
: > : > 5000 drones. From this we can evaluate the number of Borgs and from
: > : > that evaluate the possible number of cubes in the ST galaxy.
: > : > Number of Borgs: 10,000 * 1,000,000 = 10,000,000,000 = 1E10 Borgs
: > : > Number of cubes: 10,000,000,000/5,000 = 2,000,000 = 2E6 cubes
: > : > In the SW universe we know that there is about 25,000 ISDs.
: > : > So we have 80 cubes for each ISDs. Even if by some kind of
: > : > miracle each ISDs could destroy 40 cubes then they would be
: > : > 40 cubes left for each ISD. Therefore a war between the
: > : > Empire and the Borg (capital ships) would result in a victory
: > : > by the Borgs, just on numbers.
: > : Nice of you to conveniently forget about ALL the other ships in the
: > : Imperial Navy. I'd continue this debate except for two thing:
: >
: > Beside the 25,000 SDs there is no proof of more.
:
: ships besides the 25,000 SDs?
Fighters and others meaningless ships are excluded. If you want to add
them then I can claim the same about ST. They are a lot of fighters
and other meaningless ships in that universe.
: > : 1.) You're not important enough to debate with
: >
: > You mean that you would loose.
:
: Nope, as others will debate with you.
It is a new way of admitting defeat?
: > : 2.) I have to pick up my nephew from school
: >
: > That is a good excuse!
:
: Not an excuse, it's the truth.
:
: C.S.Strowbridge
The truth from you!??
PAUL JACQUES H.JR
: In article <AZvX4.1807$DT1.2...@carnaval.risq.qc.ca>,
The 25,000 SDs is described in Specter of the Past. BTW they are 200 SDs
now.
: >: 1.) You're not important enough to debate with
: >
: >You mean that you would loose.
:
: No, he means that you have proven that you will simply use the
: fallacious argument form "argumentum ad repetitio ad nauseum" and
: it's not worth it to debate you.
You mean arguments that questions the so called rules of the FAQ.
What is good for SW is good for ST! That is why you have
difficulty in debating with me.
: Honestly, Paul. People aren't leaving debates with you because
: you're a good debater (you're not) or that your points are
: particularly valid (they aren't). It's because you repeatedly
: claim the exact same points no matter how many times somebody
: else refutes them, until everybody else gives up and leaves in
: utter disgust.
LOL! Translated it means: Basically what YOU don't like about
me is you CAN'T find valid arguments to REFUTE my claims. Because
doing so would show FLAWS in the FAQ.
: Grow up.
PAUL JACQUES H.JR
: From the figures I've done, a cubeship's shielding can easily withstand
: several million terajoules. "BoBW"'s deflector incident is a good
: example of a canon "figure." LaForge said that the deflector discharge
: would deliver "more energy than our phasers and photon torpedos could
: ever provide"; ignoring phaser energy *completely* for a lower-limit
: figure, and taking the torpedo inventory of 250 ("Conundrums") rather
: than something greater in spite of what Geordi said--I repeat,
: "MORE energy..."--the lowest possible number we have may be
: the following:
:
: 1 photorp @ 64.4 MT/270,000 TJ, minus 50% for effective yield
: against cube, minus additional 26% for warhead efficiency losses:
: 99900 TJ, or ~23.8 MT. 23.8 MT*250 full inventory = 5.95 GT,
: or ~25 million TJ. This beam was discharged over a period of
: roughly five seconds or less, so the corresponding power against
: the cubeship would be 5 million TW. It didn't do jack shit, if
: you remember that episode. Locutus just stood there, perfectly
: still, and resumed talking to the E-D crew like nothing had happened.
Very good! I like these calcs. There are logical. Let see how the
Warsies will refute them.
: If a cubeship can stand up to *that* without much trouble--which
: it did, with no problems whatsoever--then it could also stand
: up to nearly seventeen *thousand* light turbolaser hits @ 3,000 TJ/
: bolt. If an ISD has about 100 of such weapons, and all of them
: have a refire rate of once per second, the cubeship could sit
: perfectly still and do nothing for about 3 minutes whilst the SD
: wailed at it nonstop, and still nothing would happen.
The MKNW (Multi Kinetic Netronic Mine) by the Borg stated in scorpion
would take care of ISDs in SW. They are rated at E20W. Also the Borg have
transporters and drones can live in space with ease. So a Borg ship would
only have to beam some Drones on ISD's hull. Since ISD shield hug the hull.
Permetting the Drones on those shield to learn and adapt and give the
Information to the collective.
Strowbridge
<SNIP the crap that proves paul can do simple math but couldn't out
think a road apple.>
> : > : Nice of you to conveniently forget about ALL the other ships in the
> : > : Imperial Navy. I'd continue this debate except for two thing:
> : >
> : > Beside the 25,000 SDs there is no proof of more.
> :
> : HUH? Are you saying there is no proof that the Imperial Navy has ANY
> : ships besides the 25,000 SDs?
>
> I'm talking about Capital ships (you know the ones for an invasion.)
> Fighters and others meaningless ships are excluded. If you want to add
> them then I can claim the same about ST. They are a lot of fighters
> and other meaningless ships in that universe.
Do you know how many ships you are excluding?
> : > : 1.) You're not important enough to debate with
> : >
> : > You mean that you would loose.
> :
> : Nope, as others will debate with you.
>
> It is a new way of admitting defeat?
You are the one that was defeated. You ignored:
1.) All other Imperial ships.
2.) Borg on planets.
3.) Other equally canon sources that claimed Larger crew compliments.
4.) Terms like 'Upper Limits.'
> : > : 2.) I have to pick up my nephew from school
> : >
> : > That is a good excuse!
> :
> : Not an excuse, it's the truth.
>
> The truth from you!??
Two Points:
1.) Care to back up your claim that I am untruthful.
2.) Fuck you you sub-human.
C.S.Strowbridge
Strowbridge
>
> sea...@my-deja.com wrote:
> : 1 photorp @ 64.4 MT/270,000 TJ, minus 50% for effective yield
> : against cube, minus additional 26% for warhead efficiency losses:
> : 99900 TJ, or ~23.8 MT. 23.8 MT*250 full inventory = 5.95 GT,
> : or ~25 million TJ. This beam was discharged over a period of
> : roughly five seconds or less, so the corresponding power against
> : the cubeship would be 5 million TW. It didn't do jack shit, if
> : you remember that episode. Locutus just stood there, perfectly
> : still, and resumed talking to the E-D crew like nothing had happened.
>
> Very good! I like these calcs. There are logical. Let see how the
> Warsies will refute them.
Sure:
1.) 'Slave Ship' puts the LOWER LIMIT of the KE of a Full Salvo from ONE
heavy gun at 'gigatons' ISDs have 6 such guns.
2.) The Borg KNEW about this attack in advanced and were prepared for
it.
3.) Unless something magical happened between then and Voyager we have
canon events that so a much lower energy limits. (Scorpion)
C.S.Strowbridge
sea...@my-deja.com
> > : against cube, minus additional 26% for warhead efficiency losses:
> > : 99900 TJ, or ~23.8 MT. 23.8 MT*250 full inventory = 5.95 GT,
> > : or ~25 million TJ. This beam was discharged over a period of
> > : roughly five seconds or less, so the corresponding power against
> > : the cubeship would be 5 million TW. It didn't do jack shit, if
> > : you remember that episode. Locutus just stood there, perfectly
> > : still, and resumed talking to the E-D crew like nothing had
happened.
> >
> > Warsies will refute them.
Can't be done.
>
> Sure:
>
> 1.) 'Slave Ship' puts the LOWER LIMIT of the KE of a Full Salvo from
ONE
> heavy gun at 'gigatons' ISDs have 6 such guns.
While I don't claim that heavy turbolaser cannons are capable of
gigaton-range bolts--I've said as much in many posts--what does this
have to do with the deflector discharge itself?
>
> 2.) The Borg KNEW about this attack in advanced and were prepared for
> it.
That's true. Locutus said so.
Nonetheless, if my tank crew knows their tank is about to be shot
with a submachine gun, the armor _still_ has to deal with the
energy of the bullets. IOW, the Borg could've altered their shielding
to protect them from the "upper-EM band," but conservatively speaking,
they _still_ had to field several million terawatts for a period
of several seconds, not to mention in only one part of the cube's
shielding. (The beam wasn't dispersed across the whole face of
the cube the way SF shields tend to spread E around their bubble.)
>
> 3.) Unless something magical happened between then and Voyager we have
> canon events that so a much lower energy limits. (Scorpion)
>
> C.S.Strowbridge
Actually, I can't follow you there...while Michael's figures themselves
are thoughtful and mathmatically sound, 9-10 bioships were involved
in that attack; moreover, all of them appeared at about the same
time. I think it'd be strange that only one of that group would
bother to attack the one cube...the other two that were destroyed
by the planetkiller shockwave/debris were probably attacked, too.
By the by, I thought Mike J's figures were in the 1E25J range.
That's _not_ higher than the deflector beam.
sea...@my-deja.com
Strowbridge <strow...@home.com> wrote:
> "PAUL JACQUES H.JR" wrote:
> >
> > sea...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > : against cube, minus additional 26% for warhead efficiency losses:
> > : 99900 TJ, or ~23.8 MT. 23.8 MT*250 full inventory = 5.95 GT,
> > : or ~25 million TJ. This beam was discharged over a period of
> > : roughly five seconds or less, so the corresponding power against
> > : the cubeship would be 5 million TW. It didn't do jack shit, if
> > : you remember that episode. Locutus just stood there, perfectly
> > : still, and resumed talking to the E-D crew like nothing had
happened.
> >
Can't be done.
That's _not_ lower than the deflector beam.
sea...@my-deja.com
> sea...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > In article <95931667...@shelley.paradise.net.nz>,
> > "Wedge" <nzw...@mail.com> wrote:
> > > Only problem is that one Impstar has a firepower evuivalant of
over
> > 200
> > > Cubes.
> >
> > It does? How so?
>
> Weapons power is much much higher. According to Michael Wong (you may
> disregard this as you like) a heavy turbolaser unleashes 72 million
TJ,
> and can fire 1 time every 2 seconds. He also says that a light
> turbolaser fires 580,000 TJ, and can fire once per second. Again, you
> may choose to disregard this, owing to the ST perception of a bias
> hanging over Wong's head, preventing him from using rational thought
> processes.
>
I never disregard anything on the basis of mere bias, my own or that
> > Numerically, the Borg have the advantage, but the Imps still outgun
> > > the bloody pansy cyborg bitches. Plus the Empire have SSDs,
ImpStar
> > Deuces,
> > > Super Deuces, VSDs, fighters etc.
> > >
> > > later,
> > > Wedge
> >
> > The Borg would say quite correctly, "Fighters are irrelevant."
>
> Then, they would recieve a photon torpedo enema, courtesy of the
> Imperial Fighter Corps.
Photons? <g>
Seriously, I agree with the Borg. Fighters _are_ irrelevant for
the most part. Their beams aren't powerful enough to do anything
to the cubeship, even an unshielded one. Perhaps with _huge_
missiles, some of the smaller boats could go in and do some damage
after the Borg shields started to fail. Otherwise, I don't see
how they'd be very helpful.
> > Anyhow...
> > Picard's unique knowledge of the Collective was the only thing that
> > allowed Starfleet to win that battle. As the novelization of "First
> > Contact" elucidates, Picard heard the Borg talking about a shield
loss
> > on a point of the cubeship--where he directed the fleet to attack
> > despite Data's incredulity at that coordinate's significance.
> > ("The coordinates you have indicated do not appear to be a vital
> > system..." "Trust me, Data.") So to judge the battle on what
> > we see onscreen alone is a Hasty Generalization fallacy, not
> > unlike claiming that an ISD's shields can't repel a 70m wide
> > asteroid w/ 500 TJ of KE.
>
> Still, the fleet managed to hurt the Cube enough to cause shield loss,
> even without concentrating their fire.
That's true. Do remember, however, that the cubeship had been engaged
for several hours at least (from the Typhon sector all the
way to Earth, through which system we saw the first cube slow to
impulse at the outer planets in "BoBW"). That's plenty of time
to completely pummel the thing with tons of photon torpedos
and alternating phaser frequencies.
>
> The heavy turbolasers were not in use, because the Emperor wanted to
> take out each large Rebel ship with the use of the Superlaser, which
> would satisfy his desire for a symbolic, as well as very real victory.
> The TIEs were deployed to keep the Rebel fighters busy.
That's cute of Palpatine, if almost totally moronic.
When the Rebels closed in on the Imperial fleet and "tried to take
some of them with us," why did those ships not then start using
their heavy batteries? Moreover, with all respect to you--you're
a reasonable debater, that's obvious--what is the source of
the Emperor/superlaser plan? If it's the novelization of RoTJ,
that's odd, given that the same novel described a long-range
fire exchange that didn't happen in the film. So, again assuming
the novel is the source, that'd be one instance of heavy guns
being fired, and then another, not being fired. Just a guess on my
part, though; further input is required, at your leisure.
Will
Strowbridge
> Remember, Strowbridge: Paul's definition of "truthful" is
> "anything that agrees with Paul's opinions."
How could I forget. Foolish me.
C.S.Strowbridge
Aron Kerkhof
>1 photorp @ 64.4 MT/270,000 TJ, minus 50% for effective yield
>against cube, minus additional 26% for warhead efficiency losses:
>99900 TJ, or ~23.8 MT. 23.8 MT*250 full inventory = 5.95 GT,
>or ~25 million TJ. This beam was discharged over a period of
>roughly five seconds or less, so the corresponding power against
>the cubeship would be 5 million TW. It didn't do jack shit, if
>you remember that episode. Locutus just stood there, perfectly
>still, and resumed talking to the E-D crew like nothing had happened.
Damn you Will! Why do you have to go and make intelligent posts
butressing the Borg's power??
Ok... I have seen BOBW many times before, but admittedly, I'm a little
hazy on the details. So here are some nits which I'm sure you'll have
no problem overcoming:
1) Isn't that more power than the Enterprise can theoretically make
with it's power plant?
2) If that is the case, and we know that it wasn't just raw power of
the beam alone that was going to do the damage (something about that
particular frequency that was going to cause the Borg's power to
fluctuate, which was what actually was going to cause the damage,
IIRC) is it possible that LaForge was speaking about the effect the
beam would have, rather than it's true power?
>
>Notes:
>1-The TM, which is only official, indicates the full photorp inventory
>at 275; the disparity between this and "Conundrums" could easily
>be accounted for by probes.
>If a cubeship can stand up to *that* without much trouble--which
>it did, with no problems whatsoever--then it could also stand
>up to nearly seventeen *thousand* light turbolaser hits @ 3,000 TJ/
>bolt. If an ISD has about 100 of such weapons, and all of them
>have a refire rate of once per second, the cubeship could sit
>perfectly still and do nothing for about 3 minutes whilst the SD
>wailed at it nonstop, and still nothing would happen.
But of course, the reverse is also true. An ISD could wail upon it's
brethern for likely much longer than 3 minutes with light TL cannon
and not do noticible damage.
>Note I qualify light guns because at the Battle of Endor, we saw
>ships about as long as a Borg cube is wide (Home One?) fighting
>that weren't being attacked with the heavy cannons. The medical
>frigate that went up against Executor shouldn't have been out
>of the firing arc of at least *some* of that ship's heavy guns,
I dunno, it was flying down the Exec's berm trench, wasn't it? It
would be well under arc of the big heavies from that position.
>yet Executor only fired with light batteries, etc., etc. I've
>heard people claim numerous times that the Rebel and Imperial
>fleets at Endor were exchanging fire from the beginning, citing
>the explosions and "flak bursts" seen from the Emperor's throne
>room, but that's, with all respect to the truly brilliant people
>that've said so, actually bullshit. (I am sincere in the brilliant
>remark. I'm not trying to be hostile...anyone that stumbles across
>this, understand, damn it! <g>) Why do I say this? Simple--canon
>overrides less canon. The movie itself is higher up in canonicity
>than the novel. And in the _movie_, Admiral Piett said:
>
>"We're in attack position now, sir."
>"Hold here."
>"...We're not going to attack?"
>"I have my orders from the Emperor himself. He has something special
>planned for them [the Rebels]."
Then didn't he say something to the effect of "We only need to keep
them from escaping." It's reasonable to conclude that they had to
herd them around and keep them corraled somehow. I'm not saying that
HTL's were fired, but the beams we saw exchanged between fleets simply
HAD to have been of higher magnatude than the point defense canons for
the simple fact that we were able to see them from the Emperor's
vantage point.
>The smallish explosions we saw from the throne room were FIGHTERS
>engaging each other. The movie made it explicitly clear that
>the Star Destroyers were NOT firing their heavy guns. If you
>still doubt, either rewatch, or listen to this quote from Londo:
><imitating best Londo voice>
>"Only the fighters are engaging us. I wonder what those Star
>Destroyers are waiting for..."
We do see beams as well don't we? Have to go watch ROTJ again. Also,
not attacking is different from just sitting there. If it's true that
they were just holding station, do you think that the Rebel's would
decide not to use their heavy guns as a courtesy to the Imperials? If
that is not the case, than that tells us a lot that the Imperials can
withstand weapons fire from vessels of approximately the same power
for fairly long periods without worrying too much.
>So, no heavy guns at long range OR close range. I say this would
>be for some unforeseen limitation in the heavy cannons. Perhaps
>they can only fire after some kind of preparatory work, dropping
>shields, taking something offline--I have no idea. But we know
>they have to be ultra-powerful for BDZ ops, so there you go...
>draw what conclusions you may <g>
I think that's a bit of a stretch. I mean, as you've observed, the
Imperials were under orders NOT to engage the fleet. We did not
observe the rock em sock em battle after the DS2 was destroyed,
depicted in novels such as Truce at Bakura. Actually, we have seen NO
all out fleet battles in ANY SW movie. The ones depicted usually
involve following the fighters around. Here's hoping for a little
ISD lovin' in Episode III.
The borg would probably be a decent threat to the Empire. It depends
on how many Borg there are, and try as we might, we have no idea what
size their navy really is. Paul's efforts, while ... uh...
commendable, left much to be desired.
Aron Kerkhof
neolith.org
Spyda
> Comming from a CHILD! LOL!
There's only one C in coming.
Spyda
> 3.) Unless something magical happened between then and Voyager we have
> canon events that so a much lower energy limits. (Scorpion)
STRAWMAN ATTACK!!!
--
"You speak of knowledge Judicator, you speak of experience. I have journeyed
through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births
of negative suns. And born witness to the entropy of entire realities. Unto
my experience Aldaris, all that you have built here on Aiur is but a fleeting
dream. A dream from which your precious Conclave will awaken, finding
themselves drowned in a greater nightmare."
-Zeratul, Prelate of the Dark Templar.
__________________________________________________________________
http://spyda.itgo.com
http://www.nano.dk/~spyda (under construction)
ICQ#: 39921647
_ _ _ _
\\ \\ // //
\\ || || //
_ \\ \\ // //
|________________________\\ \\_// //_____________________________
| ____________________ \\/ \// ____________________________/
| /_\ /_\ /
|_______________________// | | \\_________________________/
_| // /| |\ \\
// //| |\\ \\
// // \___/ \\ \\
// \\
Eric
wrote:
>"PAUL JACQUES H.JR" wrote:
>
>> Comming from a CHILD! LOL!
>
>There's only one C in coming.
Yes, but Paul seems to know that. However, he doesn't know there's
only one M.
PREDATOR
Eric wrote:
>
> On Sat, 27 May 2000 20:33:45 +1200, Spyda <sp...@spacemoose.com>
> wrote:
>
> >"PAUL JACQUES H.JR" wrote:
> >
> >> Comming from a CHILD! LOL!
> >
> >There's only one C in coming.
>
> Yes, but Paul seems to know that. However, he doesn't know there's
> only one M.
LOL
Lord Edam de Fromage
burst open. A breathless messenger knelt before him and said "My Lord, I
bring news from sea...@my-deja.com"
> > > : 1 photorp @ 64.4 MT/270,000 TJ, minus 50% for effective yield
> > > : against cube, minus additional 26% for warhead efficiency losses:
> > > : 99900 TJ, or ~23.8 MT. 23.8 MT*250 full inventory = 5.95 GT,
> > > : or ~25 million TJ. This beam was discharged over a period of
> > > : roughly five seconds or less, so the corresponding power against
> > > : the cubeship would be 5 million TW. It didn't do jack shit, if
> > > : you remember that episode. Locutus just stood there, perfectly
> > > : still, and resumed talking to the E-D crew like nothing had
> happened.
> > >
> > > Very good! I like these calcs. There are logical. Let see how the
> > > Warsies will refute them.
>
> Can't be done.
>
> >
> > Sure:
> >
> > 1.) 'Slave Ship' puts the LOWER LIMIT of the KE of a Full Salvo from
> ONE
> > heavy gun at 'gigatons' ISDs have 6 such guns.
>
> While I don't claim that heavy turbolaser cannons are capable of
> gigaton-range bolts--I've said as much in many posts--what does this
> have to do with the deflector discharge itself?
And as I often say, the only way to reconcile this quote with canon and
other official is if it refers to what the bracings aredesigned to
withstand (not what the gun actually delivers) and allows for shots that
have greater KE than those traditionally used in battle.
> > 3.) Unless something magical happened between then and Voyager we have
> > canon events that so a much lower energy limits. (Scorpion)
> >
> > C.S.Strowbridge
>
> Actually, I can't follow you there...while Michael's figures themselves
> are thoughtful and mathmatically sound, 9-10 bioships were involved
> in that attack; moreover, all of them appeared at about the same
> time. I think it'd be strange that only one of that group would
> bother to attack the one cube...the other two that were destroyed
> by the planetkiller shockwave/debris were probably attacked, too.
>
> By the by, I thought Mike J's figures were in the 1E25J range.
> That's _not_ higher than the deflector beam.
http://users.iafrica.com/x/xr/xris/borg.htm
"it takes between 3.14e26 Joules and 6.53e24 Joules to utterly and
totally destroy a 3km Borg cube"
--
Lord Edam de Fromage
Emperor of Antarctica & The Southern Oceans
Find me on AIM as Sorborus
or on the web at www.trek-wars.co.uk
ASVS - Unintelligible answers to insoluble problems
pablo_sa...@my-deja.com
How wonderful. Reasonable people are in short supply here.
> I have tremendous respect for Mike W. and almost all of his figures...
> I think he's at least on the right track insofar as TLs are concerned.
>
> Nevertheless, I have to ask again: why does this mean that _exactly_
> 40 cubes are equal to one Star Destroyer? Where are the figures
> that suggest this? I've never seen them, and for good reason:
> they do not, and cannot, exist; at least, they can't be _valid_,
> even if someone's cooked up some number.
Quite correct, I suppose. Perhaps the number is somewhere around that,
maybe it is lower, higher, or anything else. We can't really come up
with a reliable estimate.
> The truth is, we have no bloody idea how much firepower a cubeship
> might have. Against Federation fleets, the cubes have usually pulled
> their punches for the most part. Compare the weapons used by
> the cubeship in "First Contact" to those in "Scorpion, Pt. II."
> In "First Contact," we see one or maybe a _few_ disruptor pulses
> coming from the cubeship. For the most part, what do we see? <g>
> Ding, ding, ding! You're right--tractor beams. Hardly a weapon
> of choice...the cubeship and drones crewing it probably believed
> they could still win the battle, at least until Picard stepped in.
They probably would have, too.
> Fast-forward to "Scorp II." Against 8472, the cubes used a huge,
> sustained greenish beam, presumably some kind of disruptor. These
> beams were *wide*, on the order of several hundred meters; if we
> assume that the discharge was as coherent as possible--a definite
> plus when trying to damage a bioship, or any ship for that
> matter--then that suggests it is more powerful than anything used
> against Starfleet armadas. A bigger bullet is, after all, usually
> going to hurt more than a small one, especially when that bigger
> bullet is somehow able to move at the same speed.
Yeah. If they felt like seriously going against the Federation, it
would have no chance. However, Borg seem to be less intelligent than a
race that has been accumulating knowledge for hundreds of years
should. I mean, wouldn't they have assimilated some tactical ideas,
just by accident.
In FC, by the use of tractor beams, they chose to risk the assimilation
of billions on Earth, for the assimilation of thousands on the
Starfleet ships. Stupid.
> > > Numerically, the Borg have the advantage, but the Imps still
outgun
> > > > the bloody pansy cyborg bitches. Plus the Empire have SSDs,
> ImpStar
> > > Deuces,
> > > > Super Deuces, VSDs, fighters etc.
> > > >
> > > > later,
> > > > Wedge
> > >
> > > The Borg would say quite correctly, "Fighters are irrelevant."
> >
> > Then, they would recieve a photon torpedo enema, courtesy of the
> > Imperial Fighter Corps.
>
> Photons? <g>
Umm, dang it! Read protons. I hate the similarity in names for the
torps.
> Seriously, I agree with the Borg. Fighters _are_ irrelevant for
> the most part. Their beams aren't powerful enough to do anything
> to the cubeship, even an unshielded one. Perhaps with _huge_
> missiles, some of the smaller boats could go in and do some damage
> after the Borg shields started to fail. Otherwise, I don't see
> how they'd be very helpful.
Fighters have better hit and run capabilities. They can cruise in,
make a single run, then back out and wait for another opportunity.
ISDs are more committed to taking hits and dishing them back out.
> > > Anyhow...
> > > Picard's unique knowledge of the Collective was the only thing
that
> > > allowed Starfleet to win that battle. As the novelization
of "First
> > > Contact" elucidates, Picard heard the Borg talking about a shield
> loss
> > > on a point of the cubeship--where he directed the fleet to attack
> > > despite Data's incredulity at that coordinate's significance.
> > > ("The coordinates you have indicated do not appear to be a vital
> > > system..." "Trust me, Data.") So to judge the battle on what
> > > we see onscreen alone is a Hasty Generalization fallacy, not
> > > unlike claiming that an ISD's shields can't repel a 70m wide
> > > asteroid w/ 500 TJ of KE.
> >
> > Still, the fleet managed to hurt the Cube enough to cause shield
loss,
> > even without concentrating their fire.
>
> That's true. Do remember, however, that the cubeship had been engaged
> for several hours at least (from the Typhon sector all the
> way to Earth, through which system we saw the first cube slow to
> impulse at the outer planets in "BoBW"). That's plenty of time
> to completely pummel the thing with tons of photon torpedos
> and alternating phaser frequencies.
Yes, that is true. I suppose that it is pretty damn tough.
> >
> > The heavy turbolasers were not in use, because the Emperor wanted to
> > take out each large Rebel ship with the use of the Superlaser, which
> > would satisfy his desire for a symbolic, as well as very real
victory.
> > The TIEs were deployed to keep the Rebel fighters busy.
>
> That's cute of Palpatine, if almost totally moronic.
He had an ego larger than the DS.
> When the Rebels closed in on the Imperial fleet and "tried to take
> some of them with us," why did those ships not then start using
> their heavy batteries? Moreover, with all respect to you--you're
> a reasonable debater, that's obvious--what is the source of
> the Emperor/superlaser plan? If it's the novelization of RoTJ,
> that's odd, given that the same novel described a long-range
> fire exchange that didn't happen in the film. So, again assuming
> the novel is the source, that'd be one instance of heavy guns
> being fired, and then another, not being fired. Just a guess on my
> part, though; further input is required, at your leisure.
I believe I should have clarified that this was my educated guess, with
a bit of evidence tacked on. Admiral Piett stated that the Emperor had
something special planned for the Rebel fleet, then he began to pick
off Rebel ships with his superlaser. Add this to the fact that the Imp
fleet appeared to be in position to prevent the rebels from fleeing,
and it makes a somewhat foggy picture. You can assume what you will
from it, and I did.
And when the Rebel fleet engaged in point blank slugging matches, note
that we didn't see any good shots of the ships engaging each other. At
least I don't remember any.
SyG
JACQUES H.JR) wrote:
<snip>
>: Honestly, Paul. People aren't leaving debates with you because
>: you're a good debater (you're not) or that your points are
>: particularly valid (they aren't). It's because you repeatedly
>: claim the exact same points no matter how many times somebody
>: else refutes them, until everybody else gives up and leaves in
>: utter disgust.
>
>LOL! Translated it means: Basically what YOU don't like about
>me is you CAN'T find valid arguments to REFUTE my claims. Because
>doing so would show FLAWS in the FAQ.
>
No, translated it means that there are those of us that don't care to
debate with someone that has shown to have the brain power of your
average rock, and less perceptive ability.
You repeatidly ignore facts presented to you that dispute your claims.
You repeatedly us the maximum figures for ST and the minimum figures
for SW, creating an unbalnaced field. You repeatedly ignore it when
someone finds an error in your figures or "facts".
Basicaly, why would most of us want to waste our time arguing with a
compleate and utter morron with the morals of a pit viper?
Strowbridge
>
> Strowbridge wrote:
> > 3.) Unless something magical happened between then and Voyager we have
> > canon events that so a much lower energy limits. (Scorpion)
>
It's not a strawman attack. It's more like being condescending.
C.S.Strowbridge
Dalton
>
> Dalton wrote:
>
> > And you fail to include the many, many, many other ships such as
> > Dreadnaughts, Nebulon-Bs, VSDs, Corellian Corvettes and Star Galleons.
>
> ISDs seem to be far and away the most common ship in the Imperial fleet,
Most common WARSHIP.
> and are much larger than any of the above, so their contribution to any
> conflict isn't especially significant.
The Katana fleet seemed to work wonders for Thrawn's empire.
> Certainly not given that these calcs put cubes outnumbering ISDs by 80 to 1.
Oh, I just remembered something:
http://members.xoom.com/Tiny11380/fanfics/impfleet.txt
ISDs maybe, but not combined fleet.
> Now I'll grant you that the calcs have some big flaws. It ignores Borg
> on planets, and assumes a pretty low complement per cube. But even if we
> have half of all Borg planetside, and quadruple the crew complement,
> this is still a 10:1 advantage to the Borg.
What about the Unimatrix? Bound to be a lot there.
Strowbridge
>
> Jonathan Willis wrote:
> > Now I'll grant you that the calcs have some big flaws. It ignores Borg
> > on planets, and assumes a pretty low complement per cube. But even if
> > we have half of all Borg planetside, and quadruple the crew complement,
> > this is still a 10:1 advantage to the Borg.
>
> What about the Unimatrix? Bound to be a lot there.
What about VOY "Dark Frontier" (first Federation encounter of the Borg
by USS Raven three months prior to Stardate 32629.4; 28 cubic kilometers
in
volume, 129,000 lifeforms)
Even ignoring the Planet/Station bound Borg we can come up with 77 and a
half thousand Borg Cubes. Now, there maybe be 'Millions' of Borg
vessels, but a majority of these will be the smaller, less threatening
vessels. (Scout cubes, Spheres, Probes, etc.)
C.S.Strowbridge
Dalton
>
> Dalton wrote:
> >
> > Jonathan Willis wrote:
>
> > > Now I'll grant you that the calcs have some big flaws. It ignores Borg
> > > on planets, and assumes a pretty low complement per cube. But even if
> > > we have half of all Borg planetside, and quadruple the crew complement,
> > > this is still a 10:1 advantage to the Borg.
> >
> > What about the Unimatrix? Bound to be a lot there.
>
> What about VOY "Dark Frontier" (first Federation encounter of the Borg
> by USS Raven three months prior to Stardate 32629.4; 28 cubic
> kilometers in volume, 129,000 lifeforms)
>
Good point.
> Even ignoring the Planet/Station bound Borg we can come up with 77 and a
> half thousand Borg Cubes. Now, there maybe be 'Millions' of Borg
> vessels, but a majority of these will be the smaller, less threatening
> vessels. (Scout cubes, Spheres, Probes, etc.)
>
Another good point. Millions my ass.
> C.S.Strowbridge
Chuck
"Jonathan Boyd" <jona...@jboyd.co.uk> wrote in message
news:B55628AF.FA7D%jona...@jboyd.co.uk...
> > Another good point. Millions my ass.
>
> I don;'t think that low millinos is unrealistic considering that the Borg
> have a few thousand worlds as a minimum. Isn't there a quote fro Scorpion
> suggesting low millions.
Janeway gave a little speech about it before they went into the "Northwest
Passage", but considering that their experience so far with the Borg was a
small colony of former Borg and a corpse, I don't think she had a whole lot
of hard data to work with.
I'd write more but the baby's crying.
--
Chuck
"No one ever conquered the world using a beta version."
Chuck
<pablo_sa...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8gq0j5$spn$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > Your calcs are lost, and your thread is failed. Surrender now and we
> > *MIGHT* consider leniency. Continue, and we will burn you out of the
> sky
> > with our superior firepower.
>
> Ha! Even if he does surrender, you'll have a sorry time keeping me
> from killing him anyway!
Time to feed the sarlaac.
Dalton
>
> Our spies intercepted the following article from Dalton at
> dalto...@nospam.erols.com:
>
> > Strowbridge wrote:
> >>
> >> Dalton wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Jonathan Willis wrote:
> >>
> >>>> Now I'll grant you that the calcs have some big flaws. It ignores Borg
> >>>> on planets, and assumes a pretty low complement per cube. But even if
> >>>> we have half of all Borg planetside, and quadruple the crew complement,
> >>>> this is still a 10:1 advantage to the Borg.
> >>>
> >>> What about the Unimatrix? Bound to be a lot there.
> >>
> >> What about VOY "Dark Frontier" (first Federation encounter of the Borg
> >> by USS Raven three months prior to Stardate 32629.4; 28 cubic
> >> kilometers in volume, 129,000 lifeforms)
> >>
> >
> > Good point.
> >
> >> Even ignoring the Planet/Station bound Borg we can come up with 77 and a
> >> half thousand Borg Cubes. Now, there maybe be 'Millions' of Borg
> >> vessels, but a majority of these will be the smaller, less threatening
> >> vessels. (Scout cubes, Spheres, Probes, etc.)
> >>
> >
>
> I don;'t think that low millinos is unrealistic considering that the Borg
> have a few thousand worlds as a minimum. Isn't there a quote fro Scorpion
> suggesting low millions.
Woopsie. I meant to say 'Millions of CUBES my ass.' I certainly believe
that there could be millions of spheres etc.
Dalton
>
> In article <392F2579...@nospam.erols.com>,> > [snip]
> >
> > Your calcs are lost, and your thread is failed. Surrender now and we
> > *MIGHT* consider leniency. Continue, and we will burn you out of the
> > sky with our superior firepower.
>
> Ha! Even if he does surrender, you'll have a sorry time keeping me
> from killing him anyway!
Not like I'm going to try and stop you :^)
Dalton
>
> Chuck wrote:
> >
> > "Jonathan Boyd" <jona...@jboyd.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:B55628AF.FA7D%jona...@jboyd.co.uk...
> >
> > >
> > > I don;'t think that low millinos is unrealistic considering that the Borg
> > > have a few thousand worlds as a minimum. Isn't there a quote fro Scorpion
> > > suggesting low millions.
> > Passage", but considering that their experience so far with the Borg was a
> > small colony of former Borg and a corpse, I don't think she had a whole lot
> > of hard data to work with.
> > I'd write more but the baby's crying.
>
> Chakotai join an ex borg or Borgs in some way in that ex Borg colony ep?
> I just cant remember if he did, but I think so. If he did, an ex Borg
> could well know general figures for ship numbers and planets etc, and
> Chakotai could, and probably would have told Janeway everything he found
> out about them. I'm probably wrong though.
Chakotay was temporarily linked to the isolated ex-Borg in "Unity"
(IIRC) to heal his injuries, but I don't think they gave him any info on
the Borg.
Chuck
"PREDATOR" <san.n...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
news:39308E26...@xtra.co.nz...
> > > > Another good point. Millions my ass.
> > >
> > > I don;'t think that low millinos is unrealistic considering that the
Borg
> > > have a few thousand worlds as a minimum. Isn't there a quote fro
Scorpion
> > > suggesting low millions.
> > Janeway gave a little speech about it before they went into the
"Northwest
> > Passage", but considering that their experience so far with the Borg was
a
> > small colony of former Borg and a corpse, I don't think she had a whole
lot
> > of hard data to work with.
> > I'd write more but the baby's crying.
>
> Hang on a minute, now my memory of this ep is *very* sketchy, but didnt
> Chakotai join an ex borg or Borgs in some way in that ex Borg colony ep?
> I just cant remember if he did, but I think so. If he did, an ex Borg
> could well know general figures for ship numbers and planets etc, and
> Chakotai could, and probably would have told Janeway everything he found
> out about them. I'm probably wrong though.
Here's two things though that make me think the figure just can't be that
high.
1) All cube designations so far have been four digits, suggesting that cubes
make up less than ten thousand vessels.
2) All sources indicate that during the war with Species 8472 they were
desperate, yet they only lost 312 ships. If they had a million ships this
would be a drop in the bucket.
I'm not denying that they might have a million or more ships, I just think
that Janeway simply isn't qualified to make that announcement.
By the way, on a slightly different note, this is a little odd. The Borg
lose eight planets and 312 ships to S-8472, yet only lose 4,000,621 drones.
That's pretty small all things considered, especially since Borg Earth had
nine billion and the unicomplex had trillions.
Chuck
Alex Moon
<ja...@student.canterbury.ac.nz> filled our newsgroup with filthy lies,
murderous slander, ignorant ramblings, oh, and this post as well...
>Dalton wrote:
>
>> > ISDs seem to be far and away the most common ship in the Imperial fleet,
>>
>> Most common WARSHIP.
>
>True. But throwing freighters versus a cube isn't much use.
>
No, but throwing frigates, dreadnaughts, cruisers, corvettes, etc. is.
>> > and are much larger than any of the above, so their contribution to any
>> > conflict isn't especially significant.
>>
>> The Katana fleet seemed to work wonders for Thrawn's empire.
>
>This was a mere 200 ships of half ISD size, so its either shows how
>depleted or how tied up with commitments Imperial forces were.
>
Actually, the OR dreadnaughts that made up the Katana fleet were pretty good
ships. They had a few firepower problems, but four of them could take on an ISD
IIRC.
>> What about the Unimatrix? Bound to be a lot there.
>
>Sure, but unless its a significant percentage of the Borg race it isn't
>going to change the calculations much.
True.
-Alex Moon
_ _ _
KNOW THIS. I HAVE WATCHED YOUR PETTY BICKERING LONG ENOUGH. NOW, I SHALL
RENDER JUDGEMENT. LET IT BE WRITTEN THAT GOD IS A STAR WARS FAN.
-GOD
Well gang, I hate to be the one to have to say "I told you so", but I told
you so.
-Chuck
Jonathan Willis
> And you fail to include the many, many, many other ships such as
> Dreadnaughts, Nebulon-Bs, VSDs, Corellian Corvettes and Star Galleons.
ISDs seem to be far and away the most common ship in the Imperial fleet,
and are much larger than any of the above, so their contribution to any
conflict isn't especially significant. Certainly not given that these
calcs put cubes outnumbering ISDs by 80 to 1.
Now I'll grant you that the calcs have some big flaws. It ignores Borg
Jonathan Boyd
dalto...@nospam.erols.com:
> Strowbridge wrote:
>>
>> Dalton wrote:
>>>
>>> Jonathan Willis wrote:
>>
>>>> Now I'll grant you that the calcs have some big flaws. It ignores Borg
>>>> on planets, and assumes a pretty low complement per cube. But even if
>>>> we have half of all Borg planetside, and quadruple the crew complement,
>>>> this is still a 10:1 advantage to the Borg.
>>>
>>> What about the Unimatrix? Bound to be a lot there.
>>
>> What about VOY "Dark Frontier" (first Federation encounter of the Borg
>> by USS Raven three months prior to Stardate 32629.4; 28 cubic
>> kilometers in volume, 129,000 lifeforms)
>>
>
> Good point.
>
>> Even ignoring the Planet/Station bound Borg we can come up with 77 and a
>> half thousand Borg Cubes. Now, there maybe be 'Millions' of Borg
>> vessels, but a majority of these will be the smaller, less threatening
>> vessels. (Scout cubes, Spheres, Probes, etc.)
>>
>
> Another good point. Millions my ass.
I don;'t think that low millinos is unrealistic considering that the Borg
have a few thousand worlds as a minimum. Isn't there a quote fro Scorpion
suggesting low millions.
--
Jonathan
AIM: BoydClone | STvsSW website: http://www.jboyd.co.uk/index.html
Your eyes are weary from staring at the CRT. You feel sleepy. Notice how
restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions
stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.
pablo_sa...@my-deja.com
dalto...@erols.com wrote:
> "PAUL JACQUES H.JR" wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> Your calcs are lost, and your thread is failed. Surrender now and we
> *MIGHT* consider leniency. Continue, and we will burn you out of the
sky
> with our superior firepower.
Ha! Even if he does surrender, you'll have a sorry time keeping me
from killing him anyway!
> --
PREDATOR
Chuck wrote:
>
> "Jonathan Boyd" <jona...@jboyd.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:B55628AF.FA7D%jona...@jboyd.co.uk...
>
> > > Another good point. Millions my ass.
> >
> > I don;'t think that low millinos is unrealistic considering that the Borg
> > have a few thousand worlds as a minimum. Isn't there a quote fro Scorpion
> > suggesting low millions.
PREDATOR
Chuck wrote:
>
> "PREDATOR" <san.n...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:39308E26...@xtra.co.nz...
> > > > > Another good point. Millions my ass.
> > > >
> > > > I don;'t think that low millinos is unrealistic considering that the
> Borg
> > > > have a few thousand worlds as a minimum. Isn't there a quote fro
> Scorpion
> > > > suggesting low millions.
> > > Janeway gave a little speech about it before they went into the
> "Northwest
> > > Passage", but considering that their experience so far with the Borg was
> a
> > > small colony of former Borg and a corpse, I don't think she had a whole
> lot
> > > of hard data to work with.
> > > I'd write more but the baby's crying.
> >
> > Hang on a minute, now my memory of this ep is *very* sketchy, but didnt
> > Chakotai join an ex borg or Borgs in some way in that ex Borg colony ep?
> > I just cant remember if he did, but I think so. If he did, an ex Borg
> > could well know general figures for ship numbers and planets etc, and
> > Chakotai could, and probably would have told Janeway everything he found
> > out about them. I'm probably wrong though.
> Here's two things though that make me think the figure just can't be that
> high.
> 1) All cube designations so far have been four digits, suggesting that cubes
> make up less than ten thousand vessels.
> 2) All sources indicate that during the war with Species 8472 they were
> desperate, yet they only lost 312 ships. If they had a million ships this
> would be a drop in the bucket.
True. Shame we dont know how long the war had been being waged though,
it may have been the rate of loss they were worried about. They have
probably never lost so many ships in such a short amount of time.
> I'm not denying that they might have a million or more ships, I just think
> that Janeway simply isn't qualified to make that announcement.
Janeway isnt qualified to be an ensign! :)
> By the way, on a slightly different note, this is a little odd. The Borg
> lose eight planets and 312 ships to S-8472, yet only lose 4,000,621 drones.
> That's pretty small all things considered, especially since Borg Earth had
> nine billion and the unicomplex had trillions.
That is strange. Very strange. Perhaps those planets were covered in
automated factories or something. Or perhaps the Borg move drones off
world once that planet has been fully harvested for resources and there
is nothing left to do. Whatever the explanation, it will be an efficient
one.
PREDATOR
Dalton wrote:
>
> PREDATOR wrote:
> >
> > Chuck wrote:
> > >
> > > "Jonathan Boyd" <jona...@jboyd.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > news:B55628AF.FA7D%jona...@jboyd.co.uk...
> > >
> > > > > Another good point. Millions my ass.
> > > >
> > > > I don;'t think that low millinos is unrealistic considering that the Borg
> > > > have a few thousand worlds as a minimum. Isn't there a quote fro Scorpion
> > > > suggesting low millions.
> > > Janeway gave a little speech about it before they went into the "Northwest
> > > Passage", but considering that their experience so far with the Borg was a
> > > small colony of former Borg and a corpse, I don't think she had a whole lot
> > > of hard data to work with.
> > > I'd write more but the baby's crying.
> >
> > Hang on a minute, now my memory of this ep is *very* sketchy, but didnt
> > Chakotai join an ex borg or Borgs in some way in that ex Borg colony ep?
> > I just cant remember if he did, but I think so. If he did, an ex Borg
> > could well know general figures for ship numbers and planets etc, and
> > Chakotai could, and probably would have told Janeway everything he found
> > out about them. I'm probably wrong though.
>
> Chakotay was temporarily linked to the isolated ex-Borg in "Unity"
> (IIRC) to heal his injuries, but I don't think they gave him any info on
> the Borg.
True. It was probably similar to his "Scorpion" link, and we heard how
much infortmation they were exchanging, and it wasnt a lot.
Dalton
Yeah, and besides, if they DID have the data, would Janeway have the
foresight to actually USE it?? ;)
Chuck
"PREDATOR" <san.n...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
news:3930B989...@xtra.co.nz...
> > Chakotay was temporarily linked to the isolated ex-Borg in "Unity"
> > (IIRC) to heal his injuries, but I don't think they gave him any info on
> > the Borg.
>
> True. It was probably similar to his "Scorpion" link, and we heard how
> much infortmation they were exchanging, and it wasnt a lot.
Chakotay's brain's only a 2400 modem.
--
Chuck
"Are you willing to die for stupidity? You see, I am, if it'll teach you
something." -187
Dalton
>
> "PREDATOR" <san.n...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:3930B989...@xtra.co.nz...
> > > Chakotay was temporarily linked to the isolated ex-Borg in "Unity"
> > > (IIRC) to heal his injuries, but I don't think they gave him any info on
> > > the Borg.
> >
> > True. It was probably similar to his "Scorpion" link, and we heard how
> > much infortmation they were exchanging, and it wasnt a lot.
> Chakotay's brain's only a 2400 modem.
Wow, even Wayne outclasses him.
*ducks*
iceberg3k
>: Remember, Strowbridge: Paul's definition of "truthful" is
>: "anything that agrees with Paul's opinions."
>
>Listen CHILD, it is the same with all people in the world. Truth
is
>what that pleases us.
ROFLOL!!!! Truth is that which is congruent with REALITY, Paul.
"The truth is tart; the false is sweet." - Charles A. Jones,
quoted in "Chuck Amuck" by Chuck Jones
"I know the truth about it! AND THE TRUTH HURTS!" - Isamu Alva
Dyson, Macross Plus Episode 3
-- M.
-a.r.k, a.s.v.s, a.r.c.r-c
-"You have been trolled, you have lost. Have a nice day." -
James "Kibo" Parry
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Dalton
>
> Dalton wrote:
>
> >
>
> True. But throwing freighters versus a cube isn't much use.
>
Star Cruisers seem to do well for converted passenger liners.
> > > and are much larger than any of the above, so their contribution to any
> > > conflict isn't especially significant.
> >
> > The Katana fleet seemed to work wonders for Thrawn's empire.
>
> This was a mere 200 ships of half ISD size, so its either shows how
> depleted or how tied up with commitments Imperial forces were.
>
They still were sufficient to kick some ass.
> > What about the Unimatrix? Bound to be a lot there.
>
> Sure, but unless its a significant percentage of the Borg race it isn't
> going to change the calculations much.
Oh? Alright then, what others mentioned: planets.
Dalton
>
> Dalton (dalto...@nospam.erols.com) wrote:
> : "PAUL JACQUES H.JR" wrote:
> :
> : [snip]
> :
> : Your calcs are lost, and your thread is failed. Surrender now and we
> : *MIGHT* consider leniency. Continue, and we will burn you out of the sky
> : with our superior firepower.
>
> Alderan, after Tarkin stated to Leia that he would not harm them if
> she told about the rebel's hide out.
Jocking? No, I'm not 'jocking'. Sorry Paul, I don't swing that way.
Oh, on another note....drugs are bad, mmmkay?
Konstantinos
of no matter to the Borg, and neither is cost. If they felt like it they
could theoretically produce a billion cubes.....
pablo_sa...@my-deja.com wrote in message
<8gkp0l$aoo$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <f9hX4.1478$DT1.2...@carnaval.risq.qc.ca>,>> In the season finale episode: Unimatrix zero we learned that there
>> is about 10,000 Borgs who are in Unimatrix zero. We learned also
>> from Seven of Nine two things: a) That one Borg out of a million is
>> infected with the Unimatrix zero anomalie. b) From another episode
>> (The one with the Borg kids) we learned that a Borg cube has about
>> 5000 drones. From this we can evaluate the number of Borgs and from
>> that evaluate the possible number of cubes in the ST galaxy.
>> Number of Borgs: 10,000 * 1,000,000 = 10,000,000,000 = 1E10 Borgs
>> Number of cubes: 10,000,000,000/5,000 = 2,000,000 = 2E6 cubes
>> In the SW universe we know that there is about 25,000 ISDs.
>> So we have 80 cubes for each ISDs. Even if by some kind of
>> miracle each ISDs could destroy 40 cubes then they would be
>> 40 cubes left for each ISD. Therefore a war between the
>> Empire and the Borg (capital ships) would result in a victory
>> by the Borgs, just on numbers.
>
>Any fool can tell that you make an erroneus assumption.
>
>You assume that all borg crew cubes.
>
>What about Borg inhabiting their planets? In FC is was said that
>billions of borg are on the planetary surface. Gee, that totally made
>you look foolish. But I'm someone else already pointed that out. In
>this specific instance, of course. One cannot count the number of
>names you have been called.
David Davis
there is no way that a sane person can claim that starwars could stand a
chance. i bet if you asked George lukes who would win he him self would
agree that star trek would win. i mean for real people!!! just think,
Q could kill every body and anything in the starwars world with one
thought. STAR TREK RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Star Trek for life
David Davis
ADAPT!!!!!!! they would probably deam into the starwars ships and over
whelm them with there large numbers.
Star Trek for life
David Davis
way! It's more like 1 ISD > 2 Cubes.
Star Trek for life
Dalton
>
> the star trek world would by any means kick the starwars worlds ass.
Here we go.
> there is no way that a sane person can claim that starwars could stand a
> chance. i bet if you asked George lukes who would win he him self would
> agree that star trek would win. i mean for real people!!! just think,
> Q could kill every body and anything in the starwars world with one
> thought. STAR TREK RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Star Trek for life
Read the God-damn FAQ, troll.
Dalton
Grow up.
Jonathan Willis
> > ISDs seem to be far and away the most common ship in the Imperial fleet,
>
> Most common WARSHIP.
True. But throwing freighters versus a cube isn't much use.
> > and are much larger than any of the above, so their contribution to any
> > conflict isn't especially significant.
>
> The Katana fleet seemed to work wonders for Thrawn's empire.
This was a mere 200 ships of half ISD size, so its either shows how
depleted or how tied up with commitments Imperial forces were.
PAUL JACQUES H.JR
:
: <SNIP the crap that proves paul can do simple math but couldn't out
: think a road apple.>
An insult = Admission of defeat.
: > : > : Nice of you to conveniently forget about ALL the other ships in the
: > : > : Imperial Navy. I'd continue this debate except for two thing:
: > : >
: > : > Beside the 25,000 SDs there is no proof of more.
: > :
: > : HUH? Are you saying there is no proof that the Imperial Navy has ANY
: > : ships besides the 25,000 SDs?
: >
: > I'm talking about Capital ships (you know the ones for an invasion.)
: > Fighters and others meaningless ships are excluded. If you want to add
: > them then I can claim the same about ST. They are a lot of fighters
: > and other meaningless ships in that universe.
:
: Do you know how many ships you are excluding?
Who cares! We are talking about a WAR here. The only ships we need are
the ships that will participate in the WAR.
: > : > : 1.) You're not important enough to debate with
: > : >
: > : > You mean that you would loose.
: > :
: > : Nope, as others will debate with you.
: >
: > It is a new way of admitting defeat?
:
: You are the one that was defeated. You ignored:
Like fools in asylums: In your mind only.
: 1.) All other Imperial ships.
Not important if they don't participate in the war.
: 2.) Borg on planets.
It doesn't negate the POSSIBLE number of cubes.
: 3.) Other equally canon sources that claimed Larger crew compliments.
LOL! Which is what?
: 4.) Terms like 'Upper Limits.'
See point 2.
: > : > : 2.) I have to pick up my nephew from school
: > : >
: > : > That is a good excuse!
: > :
: > : Not an excuse, it's the truth.
: >
: > The truth from you!??
:
: Two Points:
:
: 1.) Care to back up your claim that I am untruthful.
Yes, read past posts.
: 2.) Fuck you you sub-human.
:
: C.S.Strowbridge
You just proved point 1. Where is your proof that I'm a sub-human.
Do you have of photo of me?
PAUL JACQUES H.JR
PAUL JACQUES H.JR
Strowbridge
> : <SNIP the crap that proves paul can do simple math but couldn't out
> : think a road apple.>
>
> An insult = Admission of defeat.
An Insult is NOT the same as an Ad Hominen Attack.
> : > : > : Nice of you to conveniently forget about ALL the other ships in
> : > : > : the Imperial Navy. I'd continue this debate except for two
> : > : > : thing:
> : > : >
> : > : > Beside the 25,000 SDs there is no proof of more.
> : > :
> : > : HUH? Are you saying there is no proof that the Imperial Navy has
> : > : ANY ships besides the 25,000 SDs?
> : >
> : > I'm talking about Capital ships (you know the ones for an invasion.)
> : > Fighters and others meaningless ships are excluded. If you want to
> : > add them then I can claim the same about ST. They are a lot of
> : > fighters and other meaningless ships in that universe.
> :
> : Do you know how many ships you are excluding?
>
> Who cares! We are talking about a WAR here. The only ships we need are
> the ships that will participate in the WAR.
Yes, and you are excluding MANY types of Warships, Capital Class
warships.
> : > : > : 1.) You're not important enough to debate with
> : > : >
> : > : > You mean that you would loose.
> : > :
> : > : Nope, as others will debate with you.
> : >
> : > It is a new way of admitting defeat?
> :
> : You are the one that was defeated. You ignored:
>
> Like fools in asylums: In your mind only.
>
> : 1.) All other Imperial ships.
>
> Not important if they don't participate in the war.
And they would participate.
> : 2.) Borg on planets.
>
> It doesn't negate the POSSIBLE number of cubes.
So you are comparing the UPPER LIMIT of Borg Cubes to one class of
Imperial Warship and declaring victory. Even you should be able to see
that.
> : 3.) Other equally canon sources that claimed Larger crew compliments.
>
> LOL! Which is what?
Already posted. (first Federation encounter of the Borg by USS Raven
three months prior to Stardate 32629.4; 28 cubic kilometers in volume,
129,000 lifeforms)
> : 4.) Terms like 'Upper Limits.'
>
> See point 2.
That would be the first time you mentioned that concept.
> : > : > : 2.) I have to pick up my nephew from school
> : > : >
> : > : > That is a good excuse!
> : > :
> : > : Not an excuse, it's the truth.
> : >
> : > The truth from you!??
> :
> : Two Points:
> :
> : 1.) Care to back up your claim that I am untruthful.
>
> Yes, read past posts.
Refusing to give evidence = WRONG!
BTW, the fact that you said "Truth is what that pleases us" proves two
things:
1.) You need to practice english.
2.) You are incapable of determining the truth.
> : 2.) Fuck you you sub-human.
>
> You just proved point 1. Where is your proof that I'm a sub-human.
Lack of intelligence as demonstrated in this thread. The above
'absences' are proof enough.
C.S.Strowbridge
Strowbridge
> : Your calcs are lost, and your thread is failed. Surrender now and we
> : *MIGHT* consider leniency. Continue, and we will burn you out of the
> : sky with our superior firepower.
>
> You're jocking right! Leniency from the EMPIRE!?? Ask the people of
> Alderan, after Tarkin stated to Leia that he would not harm them if
> she told about the rebel's hide out.
You do realize that Star Wars is NOT real. And we are NOT members of the
Galactic Empire, correct?
C.S.Strowbridge
Kynes
> You're jocking right! Leniency from the EMPIRE!?? Ask the people of
> Alderan, after Tarkin stated to Leia that he would not harm them if
> she told about the rebel's hide out.
First of all, Leia was lying and Vader knew damn well she was going to. Second
of all, have you considered the possibility that the pro-SW side of this debate
may not actually be bona fide members of the Galactic Empire?
--
-LK!
[ ky...@choam.org ] [ ICQ: 795238 ] [ AIM: Kynes23 ]
"Discussions which lack moral or normative assessments are rarely interesting."
- Emily Cuatto
pablo_sa...@my-deja.com
"Konstantinos" <eeva...@suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote:
> Theoretically, shoudlnt the Borg have an indefinite numbers of cubs?
Loss is
> of no matter to the Borg, and neither is cost. If they felt like it
they
> could theoretically produce a billion cubes.....
They would still need resources to construct and maintain this massive
fleet, and it really isn't economical to build a superfleet like that,
but it is possible, because they do posess an indeterminate number of
planets. Of course, the borg are not a military power, they seek only
perfection, to better themselves.
Strowbridge
> > You're jocking right! Leniency from the EMPIRE!?? Ask the people of
> > Alderan, after Tarkin stated to Leia that he would not harm them if
> > she told about the rebel's hide out.
>
> First of all, Leia was lying and Vader knew damn well she was going to.
> Second of all, have you considered the possibility that the pro-SW side
> of this debate may not actually be bona fide members of the Galactic
> Empire?
That reminds me why I stopped debating with Paul in the first place:
He's nuts, 100% Certifiable. Scary stuff.
C.S.Strowbridge
Kynes
> Theoretically, shoudlnt the Borg have an indefinite numbers of cubs? Loss is
> of no matter to the Borg, and neither is cost. If they felt like it they
> could theoretically produce a billion cubes.....
Right. Because not caring = infinite resources. Thanks for clearing that up --
now all I need for free energy is apathetic monkeys on bicycles.
Kynes
> > First of all, Leia was lying and Vader knew damn well she was going to.
> > Second of all, have you considered the possibility that the pro-SW side
> > of this debate may not actually be bona fide members of the Galactic
> > Empire?
> That reminds me why I stopped debating with Paul in the first place:
> He's nuts, 100% Certifiable. Scary stuff.
As a general rule, French Canadians with visions of martyrdom (regarding
fictional-universe battle scenarios, no less) do not make good debate partners.
What kills me is that sometimes I actually get the feeling he believes some of
the things he says.
Don't get me wrong. I like him, just because he's crazy enough to be likeable.
But...
Jerry
came close a time or two. So your point is moot. Q would probably try to get
the Federation and the Empire together like he did with the Borg. He'd
probably get some jollies off watching a few ISD's take out StarFleet.
David Davis wrote in message
<17507-39...@storefull-111.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
the star trek world would by any means kick the starwars worlds ass.
Jerry
David Davis wrote in message
<17506-393...@storefull-111.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
Jerry
David Davis wrote in message
<17507-39...@storefull-111.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
Chuck
"David Davis" <STr...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:17507-39...@storefull-111.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> the star trek world would by any means kick the starwars worlds ass.
> there is no way that a sane person can claim that starwars could stand a
> chance. i bet if you asked George lukes who would win he him self would
> agree that star trek would win. i mean for real people!!! just think,
> Q could kill every body and anything in the starwars world with one
> thought. STAR TREK RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Star Trek for life
>
Q probably could. That proves that, despite the fact that they have small,
slow, weak, pathetic, poorly managed, primitive fleets, Star Trek would
still win because they have Q. Yes, lucky they have Q since he's able to win
the battle for the dung-flinging, backwards worlds like the Federation, the
Klingons, the Romulans, and the Borg.
--
Chuck
http://www.sfdebris.com
Dalton
[snip]
> Q probably could. That proves that, despite the fact that they have small,
> slow, weak, pathetic, poorly managed, primitive fleets, Star Trek would
> still win because they have Q. Yes, lucky they have Q since he's able to win
> the battle for the dung-flinging, backwards worlds like the Federation, the
> Klingons, the Romulans, and the Borg.
>
I like that phrase. Dung-flinging. Sounds kind of like spacebattles.com.
Strowbridge
>
> "Strowbridge" <strow...@home.com> wrote
> > > First of all, Leia was lying and Vader knew damn well she was going
> > > to. Second of all, have you considered the possibility that the
> > > pro-SW side of this debate may not actually be bona fide members of
> > > the Galactic Empire?
>
> > That reminds me why I stopped debating with Paul in the first place:
> > He's nuts, 100% Certifiable. Scary stuff.
>
> As a general rule, French Canadians with visions of martyrdom (regarding
> fictional-universe battle scenarios, no less) do not make good debate
> partners. What kills me is that sometimes I actually get the feeling he
> believes some of the things he says.
Remember, according to him Truth is what makes you feel good.
> Don't get me wrong. I like him, just because he's crazy enough to be
> likeable. But...
I wonder how much money he has. Cause I've made no secret where I live
and he's nuts enough to come after someone.
C.S.Strowbridge
Dalton
[snip]
> I wonder how much money he has. Cause I've made no secret where I live
> and he's nuts enough to come after someone.
>
> C.S.Strowbridge
I'm going to mail you a letter one of these days.
--
Dalton
http://members.xoom.com/Tiny11380/fanfics
http://members.xoom.com/Tiny11380/fuq
"There, but for the grace of God, go I"
PAUL JACQUES H.JR
: >
: >Thin of the tribbles you could grow with that much quatro-triticale.
:
: Imps wouldn't have any problem slaughtering tribbles like the
: wishy-washy Federation officers. :)
The same way they slaughtered the Ewoks? LOL!
PAUL JACQUES H.JR
:
: > : 1 photorp @ 64.4 MT/270,000 TJ, minus 50% for effective yield
: > : against cube, minus additional 26% for warhead efficiency losses:
: > : 99900 TJ, or ~23.8 MT. 23.8 MT*250 full inventory = 5.95 GT,
: > : or ~25 million TJ. This beam was discharged over a period of
: > : roughly five seconds or less, so the corresponding power against
: > : the cubeship would be 5 million TW. It didn't do jack shit, if
: > : you remember that episode. Locutus just stood there, perfectly
: > : still, and resumed talking to the E-D crew like nothing had happened.
: >
: > Very good! I like these calcs. There are logical. Let see how the
: > Warsies will refute them.
:
: Sure:
:
: 1.) 'Slave Ship' puts the LOWER LIMIT of the KE of a Full Salvo from ONE
: heavy gun at 'gigatons' ISDs have 6 such guns.
Overruled by the TESB (CANON). The only power accepted is 1997 TJ for
the vaporization of the asteroids. Not more. The rest is speculation. Even
Wong admitted that by stating that an ISD bigger gun power is only
a POSSIBLE deduction based on the volume of the gun. It is not a fact.
We deal with facts here.
: 2.) The Borg KNEW about this attack in advanced and were prepared for
: it.
So if an ISD had that level of power (which it is not the case) then
the second Borg cube will adapt to the SW ship. Assuming that the first
cube is destroyed. Because they would KNOW from the first one.
: 3.) Unless something magical happened between then and Voyager we have
: canon events that so a much lower energy limits. (Scorpion)
:
: C.S.Strowbridge
Something *magical* did happen it is called: Fair Haven. The last quote
in that episode of the energy that Voyager endured was 90 million TJ.
That information supports Sean's calcs above (which are based on quotes
from Geordi (canon). Also another Voyager episode: Kim stated to Seven
of Nine that one plasma conduit had 5 million GW. I would suggest to you
to watch ST before you engage in these debates.
PAUL JACQUES H.JR
:
: > : The official literature describes them.
: >
: > The 25,000 SDs is described in Specter of the Past. BTW they are 200 SDs
: > now.
: >
:
: And you fail to include the many, many, many other ships such as
: Dreadnaughts, Nebulon-Bs, VSDs, Corellian Corvettes and Star Galleons.
There are no match for ST ships.
: > : >: 1.) You're not important enough to debate with
: > : >
: > : >You mean that you would loose.
: > :
: > : No, he means that you have proven that you will simply use the
: > : fallacious argument form "argumentum ad repetitio ad nauseum" and
: > : it's not worth it to debate you.
: >
: > You mean arguments that questions the so called rules of the FAQ.
: > What is good for SW is good for ST! That is why you have
: > difficulty in debating with me.
: >
:
: We have difficulty translating your posts.
Since when?
: > : Honestly, Paul. People aren't leaving debates with you because
: > : you're a good debater (you're not) or that your points are
: > : particularly valid (they aren't). It's because you repeatedly
: > : claim the exact same points no matter how many times somebody
: > : else refutes them, until everybody else gives up and leaves in
: > : utter disgust.
: >
: > LOL! Translated it means: Basically what YOU don't like about
: > me is you CAN'T find valid arguments to REFUTE my claims. Because
: > doing so would show FLAWS in the FAQ.
: >
:
: Your ego is too big for your head. Better shrink it a bit before it
: destroys you.
Will you teach me BSM (Bull shit master)?
: > : Grow up.
: >
: > Comming from a CHILD! LOL!
:
: There is a difference between mental maturity and physical maturity. And
: right now, you have a mindset akin to that of a ten year old fanboy.
Comming from a Boy!
: Too bad, so sad, you lose. Bye Paul!
Stop talking about yourself!
PAUL JACQUES H.JR
: Dalton wrote:
:
: > And you fail to include the many, many, many other ships such as
: > Dreadnaughts, Nebulon-Bs, VSDs, Corellian Corvettes and Star Galleons.
: ISDs seem to be far and away the most common ship in the Imperial fleet,
: and are much larger than any of the above, so their contribution to any
: conflict isn't especially significant. Certainly not given that these
: calcs put cubes outnumbering ISDs by 80 to 1.
:
: Now I'll grant you that the calcs have some big flaws. It ignores Borg
: on planets, and assumes a pretty low complement per cube. But even if we
: have half of all Borg planetside, and quadruple the crew complement,
: this is still a 10:1 advantage to the Borg.
Which is more than enough to be a *great* menace to the Empire.
PAUL JACQUES H.JR
: On Sat, 27 May 2000 00:18:35 GMT, he79...@merlin.uqam.ca (PAUL
: JACQUES H.JR) wrote:
:
: <snip>
: >: Honestly, Paul. People aren't leaving debates with you because
: >: you're a good debater (you're not) or that your points are
: >: particularly valid (they aren't). It's because you repeatedly
: >: claim the exact same points no matter how many times somebody
: >: else refutes them, until everybody else gives up and leaves in
: >: utter disgust.
: >
: >LOL! Translated it means: Basically what YOU don't like about
: >me is you CAN'T find valid arguments to REFUTE my claims. Because
: >doing so would show FLAWS in the FAQ.
: >
:
: debate with someone that has shown to have the brain power of your
: average rock, and less perceptive ability.
But you replied to this post!??
: You repeatidly ignore facts presented to you that dispute your claims.
: You repeatedly us the maximum figures for ST and the minimum figures
: for SW, creating an unbalnaced field. You repeatedly ignore it when
: someone finds an error in your figures or "facts".
I take the REAL facts and not the speculations derived from it.
Meaning the asteroid were destroyed in TESB. That means 1997 TJ. Not
the million of TJ that Wong estimated based on the volume (!??) of
the bigger gun. At least Wong was honest enough to say that it is
UNSUBSTANTIATED. Something that MOST WARSIE don't mention often here.
Based on that only RELIABLE fact. I can claim with EASE that ST's
Weapons would be a great menace to SW.
: Basicaly, why would most of us want to waste our time arguing with a
: compleate and utter morron with the morals of a pit viper?
Offended Virgin Syndrome AGAIN! Listen you piece of S... Warsies here
outnumber the Trekkers. You claim that your side would pulverise ST and
you can't beat us in REAL arguments and you cry like a BABY when one
trekker (defender of the faith, BTW thanks my Lord (Edam) I like the title)
brings contradictions! Like William Shatner said: GET A LIFE.
Dalton
>
> Dalton (dalto...@nospam.erols.com) wrote:
> : "PAUL JACQUES H.JR" wrote:
> : [snip]
> :
> : > : The official literature describes them.
> : >
> : > The 25,000 SDs is described in Specter of the Past. BTW they are 200 SDs
> : > now.
> : >
> :
> : Dreadnaughts, Nebulon-Bs, VSDs, Corellian Corvettes and Star Galleons.
>
>
Dude, they will fucking waste the Feddies.
> : > : >: 1.) You're not important enough to debate with
> : > : >
> : > : >You mean that you would loose.
> : > :
> : > : No, he means that you have proven that you will simply use the
> : > : fallacious argument form "argumentum ad repetitio ad nauseum" and
> : > : it's not worth it to debate you.
> : >
> : > You mean arguments that questions the so called rules of the FAQ.
> : > What is good for SW is good for ST! That is why you have
> : > difficulty in debating with me.
> : >
> :
> : We have difficulty translating your posts.
>
> Since when?
>
Since always, since you are a raving lunatic.
> : > : Honestly, Paul. People aren't leaving debates with you because
> : > : you're a good debater (you're not) or that your points are
> : > : particularly valid (they aren't). It's because you repeatedly
> : > : claim the exact same points no matter how many times somebody
> : > : else refutes them, until everybody else gives up and leaves in
> : > : utter disgust.
> : >
> : > LOL! Translated it means: Basically what YOU don't like about
> : > me is you CAN'T find valid arguments to REFUTE my claims. Because
> : > doing so would show FLAWS in the FAQ.
> : >
> :
> : Your ego is too big for your head. Better shrink it a bit before it
> : destroys you.
>
> Will you teach me BSM (Bull shit master)?
>
I told you I will not go out with you, Paul. Stop accosting me.
> : > : Grow up.
> : >
> : > Comming from a CHILD! LOL!
> :
> : There is a difference between mental maturity and physical maturity. And
> : right now, you have a mindset akin to that of a ten year old fanboy.
>
> Comming from a Boy!
>
What is it with your obsession with boys 'comming'?
Back in your cage, cork-sniffer.
> : Too bad, so sad, you lose. Bye Paul!
>
> Stop talking about yourself!
My, your insults! So fresh! Why, they're only fifth-grade vintage!