How do I know it's prescriptivism, Raymond?
CyberCypher
When I say "Harry Potter" and the "o" in "Potter" sounds like the "a"
in "father", my 6-year-old says, "That's not how you say it, Daddy". He
then proceeds to repeat "Potter" with the "o" pronounced the way BrE
speakers pronounce it in England. My son doesn't tell me that this is
how he heard it said in the Harry Potter movie; that would be
descriptivism. He tells me the "correct" way to say it; that's
prescriptivism. The movie is right and I am wrong, no two ways about
it. That's what I mean by social prescriptivism as opposed to
linguistic or grammatical prescriptivism.
It is no defense to claim that because my son is only 6, he does not
yet realize that words can be pronounced in many ways. As you have
pointed out, adult prescriptivists of the lowthy type insist that there
is only one correct way of saying "to boldly go" ("to go boldly"). They
are old enough to know better, so age or mental development is not an
issue.
--
Franke, D.P. (Doctor of Pantology)
Raymond S. Wise
"CyberCypher" <fra...@seed.net.tw> wrote in message
news:Xns9257D1C73...@130.133.1.4...
In order for advice to be prescriptive, it is not sufficient to say that
"'X' is spelled 'Y.'" That is pure description. In order for it to be
prescriptive, it must be either (1) wrong, and thus attempting to get you to
substitute a nonstandard usage for the actual standard usage, and/or (2)
coercive, as is the case with a company's style book for an employee of that
company.
Simply identifying a standard usage is not prescriptive. Your son would have
to say something like "If you don't quit saying it that way, I'm going to
kick you" in order for his advice to be considered prescriptive.
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Mark Barratt
>When I say "Harry Potter" and the "o" in "Potter" sounds like the "a"
>in "father", my 6-year-old says, "That's not how you say it, Daddy". He
>then proceeds to repeat "Potter" with the "o" pronounced the way BrE
>speakers pronounce it in England.
But does he pronounce the final "r"? For me it's /pA.t@/. I would
expect most Americans to say /pOtR/. Could it be that your son is
learning non-rhotic English?
CyberCypher
news:j1l3kucul7987tv5a...@4ax.com:
> On 26 Jul 2002 12:37:18 GMT, CyberCypher <fra...@seed.net.tw>
> wrote:
>
>>When I say "Harry Potter" and the "o" in "Potter" sounds like the
>>"a" in "father", my 6-year-old says, "That's not how you say it,
>>Daddy". He then proceeds to repeat "Potter" with the "o"
>>pronounced the way BrE speakers pronounce it in England.
>
> But does he pronounce the final "r"? For me it's /pA.t@/.
As it is for my son.
> I would expect most Americans to say /pOtR/.
My son is culturally Taiwanese and not American. He watches videos and
listens to tapes in both US and UK English and picks up both types of
pronunciation. I make no attempt to tell him which is "correct". He
knows better.
> Could it be that your son is learning non-rhotic English?
Yes, he is learning both rhotic and non-rhotic English. Whenever I read
stories to him, I use UK pronunciation for British stories, like _Frog
and Toad Are Friends_ and US pronuncation for American stories. And
just like the Disney version of Winnie the Pooh, I use both for that.
CyberCypher
news:uk3mjo2...@corp.supernews.com:
>
> "CyberCypher" <fra...@seed.net.tw> wrote in message
> news:Xns9257D1C73...@130.133.1.4...
>> How do I know it's prescriptivism, Raymond? Simple.
>>
>> When I say "Harry Potter" and the "o" in "Potter" sounds like the
>> "a" in "father", my 6-year-old says, "That's not how you say it,
>> Daddy". He then proceeds to repeat "Potter" with the "o"
>> pronounced the way BrE speakers pronounce it in England. My son
>> doesn't tell me that this is how he heard it said in the Harry
>> Potter movie; that would be descriptivism. He tells me the
>> "correct" way to say it; that's prescriptivism. The movie is
>> right and I am wrong, no two ways about it. That's what I mean by
>> social prescriptivism as opposed to linguistic or grammatical
>> prescriptivism.
>>
>> It is no defense to claim that because my son is only 6, he does
>> not yet realize that words can be pronounced in many ways. As you
>> have pointed out, adult prescriptivists of the lowthy type insist
>> that there is only one correct way of saying "to boldly go" ("to
>> go boldly"). They are old enough to know better, so age or mental
>> development is not an issue.
>
> In order for advice to be prescriptive, it is not sufficient to
> say that "'X' is spelled 'Y.'" That is pure description. In order
> for it to be prescriptive, it must be either (1) wrong, and thus
> attempting to get you to substitute a nonstandard usage for the
> actual standard usage,
Oh, puh 'leeze! (I know, I know. The FAQ advises against this sort of
thing, but it is certainly called for here.) Your bias is bigger than
Mr Jumbo (Dumbo's father) and longer than Pinocchio's nose. You have
created a tautology: "If it's prescriptive it's wrong, and if it's
wrong it's prescriptive".
> and/or (2) coercive, as is the case with a
> company's style book for an employee of that company.
>
> Simply identifying a standard usage is not prescriptive.
Right, that's descriptive. But my son does not simply identify, he
insists that I pronounce it properly.
> Your son
> would have to say something like "If you don't quit saying it that
> way, I'm going to kick you" in order for his advice to be
> considered prescriptive.
My som is too nice to say something like that, but he isn't too nice to
demand that I say it the way it ought to be said before he allows me to
continue talking about Harry Potter.
Raymond S. Wise
Descriptive usage rules and prescriptive usage rules are identical except in
those few cases where they disagree. If descriptive usage rules represent
Standard English, it logically follows that prescriptive usage rules which
disagree with the descriptive usage rules are precluded from representing
Standard English. To the extent that they represent a nonstandard dialect,
they would, of course, be "nonstandard" rather than "wrong," but much of
prescriptivism represents no true usage of any sort.
Bergen Evans was once stuck in the hospital with time on his hands. He spent
his time examining the (written) English of the harshest critics of
Webster's Third. He found that they used the very usages which they had
condemned Webster's Third for including. In other words, their
prescriptivist usage rules did not even represent their *own* idiolects in
formal written English!
Aaron J. Dinkin
> On 26 Jul 2002 12:37:18 GMT, CyberCypher <fra...@seed.net.tw> wrote:
>
>>When I say "Harry Potter" and the "o" in "Potter" sounds like the "a"
>>in "father", my 6-year-old says, "That's not how you say it, Daddy". He
>>then proceeds to repeat "Potter" with the "o" pronounced the way BrE
>>speakers pronounce it in England.
>
> But does he pronounce the final "r"? For me it's /pA.t@/. I would
> expect most Americans to say /pOtR/.
With the "caught" vowel? I'm surprised; I'd have expected the "cot" vowel.
But what do I know, a CIC little puppy like me?
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Aaron J. Dinkin
> Yes, he is learning both rhotic and non-rhotic English. Whenever I read
> stories to him, I use UK pronunciation for British stories, like _Frog
> and Toad Are Friends_ and US pronuncation for American stories.
Eh? _Frog and Toad Are Friends_ was written by Arnold Lobel, who grew up
in Schenectady, New York.
CyberCypher
news:uds09.182739$uw.9...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net:
Ah, well, that's a lot closer to London than I am. For some reason I
was under the impression that the book and the author had originated in
England.
Thank you for the correction. But it sounds better with an RP accent
even if it is American.
Mark Barratt
<a...@post.harvard.edu> wrote:
>On Sat, 27 Jul 2002 01:17:03 +0200, Mark Barratt <ma...@totally-official.com> wrote:
(re: "potter")
>> But does he pronounce the final "r"? For me it's /pA.t@/. I would
>> expect most Americans to say /pOtR/.
>
>With the "caught" vowel? I'm surprised; I'd have expected the "cot" vowel.
>But what do I know, a CIC little puppy like me?
You're right. I meant /pAtR/.
Pat Durkin
"Mark Barratt" <ma...@totally-official.com> wrote in message
news:iqk4ku0vs60htuoo5...@4ax.com...
Thanks. Aaron raised my own question. I am CIC, which may be the more
common pronunciation in the US, but I can't swear to that.
Aaron J. Dinkin
There otta be censuses about this kind of thing.
Pat Durkin
"Aaron J. Dinkin" <a...@post.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:78y09.137394$_51....@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...
Right, another poll, all we need.