bland examples in moral philosophy

[Berel Dov Lerner]

I dimly recall  a pretty well-known example of a moral philosopher who was attacked for choosing to illustrate his theoretical discussions with bland and insignificant cases of ethical/unethical behavior.  Please remind me who he was (and who attacked him).

 

Thanks,

 

Berel Dov Lerner
Lecturer in Philosophy
Western Galilee Academic College, Israel

 

For best results, send email to both of my addresses:
do...@wgalil.ac.il
bd_l...@hotmail.com

[R Hall]

Would it have been Broad, or even Moore? An instance would have been the
reading of novels in the morning, or not returning a matchbox. The first
is a longstanding taboo, I happended to discover only last night, from
Philip Thody's book _Don't Do It!_
Roland Hall

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[Matthew Stapleton]

Just curious. Why shouldn't one read novels in the morning?

be well,

Matthew Stapleton

%%%%%%%%%%%%
http://webpages.marshall.edu/~staple12
%%%%%%%%%%%%

[Roland Hall]

Thody, p. 215, says "only history or theology were seen as suitable reading
matter when the mind was at its most alert", and he thinks that Jane Austen
in ch. 5 of Northanger Abbey "was clearly taking this taboo as one of her
targets when she defined a novel as "only some work in which the greatest
powers of the mind are displayed [etc]" [quot. from Austen]. Thody mentions
this taboo on fiction as in place "until the early twentieth century", but
certainly I read of it in the 1950s, so when did it cease to operate?
Roland Hall

[Wayne Butler]

>Thody mentions
> this taboo on fiction as in place "until the early twentieth century", but
> certainly I read of it in the 1950s, so when did it cease to operate?

Presumably when philosophy students started sleeping in till lunchtime.
Wayne.

[rod preece]

I was under the impression that reading novels, like playing cards, was hel=
d to be a frivolous activity. Engagement in such frippery could only be j=
ustified, if at all, after all the serious, mind-improving tasks had been=
performed satisfactorily. And, yes, that view continued at least until t=
he 1950s - I certainly recall it being pounded into me. Moreover,if one d=
id engage in such reading it was only to be edified by the better class o=
f novels. Woe betide anyone who was actually caught enjoying them! In fac=
t, I have some hesitancy writing this note on Easter Sunday. If my school=
headmaster had caught me, a strapping would undoubtedly have been in ord=
er! No one took Bentham seriously that push-penny was as good as poetry. =
The whole puritan world heaved a sigh of relief when John Stuart Mill ins=
isted that quality had to be added to the quantity of pleasure - and, for=
most, the highest pleasures were decidedly those that were not so pleasu=
rable!
Rod

-----Original Message-----
From: Roland Hall <r...@YORK.AC.UK>
To: PHIL...@liverpool.ac.uk
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 12:01:31 +0100
Subject: Re: bland examples in moral philosophy

Thody, p. 215, says "only history or theology were seen as suitable readin=

g
matter when the mind was at its most alert", and he thinks that Jane Austen
in ch. 5 of Northanger Abbey "was clearly taking this taboo as one of her
targets when she defined a novel as "only some work in which the greatest
powers of the mind are displayed [etc]" [quot. from Austen]. Thody mentions
this taboo on fiction as in place "until the early twentieth century", but
certainly I read of it in the 1950s, so when did it cease to operate?
Roland Hall
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew Stapleton" <matthews...@juno.com>
To: <r...@york.ac.uk>
Cc: <PHIL...@liverpool.ac.uk>
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: bland examples in moral philosophy

> Just curious. Why shouldn't one read novels in the morning?
>
> be well,
>
> Matthew Stapleton
>
> %%%%%%%%%%%%
> http://webpages.marshall.edu/~staple12
> %%%%%%%%%%%%
>

Messages to the list are archived at http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/archives/phi=
los-l.html.
Other philosophical resources on the Web can be found at http://www.liv.ac.=
uk/Philosophy/philos.html

[rod preece]

Oh, yes, the question was: "When did it end?" With TW3 (That was the Week I=
t Was), the Beatles and flower power. And perhaps the pelude to it all wa=
s the bare-faced honesty of J.D. Salinger's Catcher in the Rye (1951)- an=
other novel one was not allowed to read, of course, except under the bedc=
lothes by flashlight. Naturally, Ulysses was far better, but, in my youth=
, James Joyce's 1922 masterpiece remained unpublished (legally, at least,=
other than in France). As T.S. Eliot wrote of it, "It is the book to whi=
ch we are all indebted and from which none of us can escape." A part of o=
ur indebtedness is that once it was published the legitimacy of reading n=
ovels both for pleasure and erudition was ensured.
Rod

[Stephen Satris]

I think this might relate to Pritchard, who (if I remember correctly) used the example of shouting to revive a fainting man.  I think he also used the example of returning a library book.  But, in defense of this sort of thing, it might also be mentioned that trivial illustrations are often used in theoretical discussions precisely because they are trivial.  One wants to keep the discussion theoretical and not to discuss particular cases.  In theoretical discussions about knowledge, for example, one sometimes encounters statements like "The cat is on the mat" or "7 +  5 = 12." 

Since the rise of what has been called "applied ethics" or "applied philosophy," there is a focus on the particular cases themselves, and often a corresponding lack of interest in theoretical discussion.  From this perspective, it is important that the particular cases one focuses upon are not trivial ones.

Stephen Satris
Clemson University      

[Constantinos Athanasopoulos]

Dear All
May I add to this quite interesting exchange of ideas about bland examples in moral philosophy that in the ancient Greek way of doing philosophy, philosophy was quite often enriched with pieces of poetry and other forms of literature. Even Plato who did express his opposition to poetry, used as a method of doing philosophy the literary form of a dialogue. 
Furthermore, in the courses I teach in moral philosophy and ethics I see that the students become interested in what I am teaching only when I try to illustrate what I am saying with a characteristic example from a novel (Dostoyefski is my favourite) or a citation from a poem, or even an analysis of a movie character. 
Thus, I think that philosophers should try to enrich their books/courses with such examples. Taking into consideration that life is never the same, the best way to see into the future is always through the eyes of imagination...
Peace and uplifting thoughts and wishes for Easter to all
CA

At 07:33 ðì 20/4/2003 -0400, rod preece wrote:

I was under the impression that reading novels, like playing cards, was held to be a frivolous activity. Engagement in such frippery could only be justified, if at all, after all the serious, mind-improving tasks had been performed satisfactorily. And, yes, that view continued at least until the 1950s - I certainly recall it being pounded into me. Moreover,if one did engage in such reading it was only to be edified by the better class of novels. Woe betide anyone who was actually caught enjoying them! In fact, I have some hesitancy writing this note on Easter Sunday. If my school headmaster had caught me, a strapping would undoubtedly have been in order! No one took Bentham seriously that push-penny was as good as poetry. The whole puritan world heaved a sigh of relief when John Stuart Mill insisted that quality had to be added to the quantity of pleasure - and, for most, the highest pleasures were decidedly those that were not so pleasurable!

Rod

-----Original Message-----
From: Roland Hall <r...@YORK.AC.UK>
To: PHIL...@liverpool.ac.uk
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 12:01:31 +0100
Subject: Re: bland examples in moral philosophy

Thody, p. 215,  says "only history or theology were seen as suitable reading

matter when the mind was at its most alert", and he thinks that Jane Austen
in ch. 5 of Northanger Abbey "was clearly taking this taboo as one of her
targets when she defined a novel as "only some work in which the greatest
powers of the mind are displayed [etc]" [quot. from Austen]. Thody mentions
this taboo on fiction as in place "until the early twentieth century", but
certainly I read of it in the 1950s, so when did it cease to operate?
    Roland Hall
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew Stapleton" <matthews...@juno.com>
To: <r...@york.ac.uk>
Cc: <PHIL...@liverpool.ac.uk>
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: bland examples in moral philosophy


> Just curious.  Why shouldn't one read novels in the morning?
>
> be well,
>
> Matthew Stapleton
>
> %%%%%%%%%%%%
> http://webpages.marshall.edu/~staple12
> %%%%%%%%%%%%
>

Messages to the list are archived at http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/archives/philos-l.html.
Other philosophical resources on the Web can be found at http://www.liv.ac.uk/Philosophy/philos.html

Messages to the list are archived at http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/archives/philos-l.html.
Other philosophical resources on the Web can be found at http://www.liv.ac.uk/Philosophy/philos.html

=========================================================
Dr. Constantinos Athanasopoulos (Ph.D. in Philosophy, Glasgow)
6 Hiolkou St., Kamatero, Athens 13451-Greece
Fax: +30-2-10-2383613, E-mail: cath...@hol.gr
Web Pages (University Lecturer in Philosophy- Philosophical Consultant -CV)
http://homepages.pathfinder.gr/cathanas
http://www.geocities.com/splind0r/indexEN.html
Author of the Modern Ethical Theory book The Ethical Nature and the Freedom
of the Person: Ideas and Personalities of Modern Ethics (16th-19th century)
(in Greek language), ISBN: 960-402-044-7
web-page: http://www.dardanosnet.gr/home/book-details.php?id=914
==========================================================

[R Hall]

And the use of "7 + 5 = 12" is curious. This is the one, I seem to
remember, that occurs in Plato's _Theaetetus_. The late Geoffrey Hunter
pointed out to me that Kant has to borrow this as an example.
Roland Hall

[rod preece]

I couldn't agree with you more, A.C. In the English-speaking tradition, poe=
try has been treated of a different order than the novel. George Eliot, f=
or example. says poetry is superior to other art forms because "its mediu=
m, language, is the least imitative & is in the most complex relation wit=
h what it expresses" (The Spanish Gipsy - 1868). Wordsworth wrote that "p=
oetry is the first and last of all knowledge - it is as immortal as the h=
eart of man." He went further, poetry is "the most philosophic of all wri=
ting." Robert Browning said it "remains the one way possible/Of speaking =
truth." For W.B. Yeats, "Whatever of philosophy has been made poetry alon=
e is permanent." Like you, I find a great deal in Dostoevsky, but I think=
that, in the English-speaking world, Joyce has more of an impact with th=
e novel as philosophy because of the language he employs: Hence, for exam=
ple: "Horseness is the whatness of all-horse" - for Joyce, that would hav=
e been more a commentary on the "quidditas" of Aquinas and the "haeccitas=
" of Duns Scotus, or the "thinghood" of Joyce's contemporary, Gerard Manl=
ey Hopkins, than on the Form of Plato. Nonetheless, it is a magnificnet c=
apturing of a tradition of thought.
Rod

-----Original Message-----
From: Constantinos Athanasopoulos <cath...@HOL.GR>
To: PHIL...@liverpool.ac.uk
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 18:11:00 +0300
Subject: Re: bland examples in moral philosophy

Dear All
May I add to this quite interesting exchange of ideas about bland examples=

in moral philosophy that in the ancient Greek way of doing philosophy,

philosophy was quite often enriched with pieces of poetry and other forms=

of literature. Even Plato who did express his opposition to poetry, used as=

a method of doing philosophy the literary form of a dialogue.
Furthermore, in the courses I teach in moral philosophy and ethics I see

that the students become interested in what I am teaching only when I try=

to illustrate what I am saying with a characteristic example from a novel=

(Dostoyefski is my favourite) or a citation from a poem, or even an
analysis of a movie character.
Thus, I think that philosophers should try to enrich their books/courses

with such examples. Taking into consideration that life is never the same,=

the best way to see into the future is always through the eyes of
imagination...
Peace and uplifting thoughts and wishes for Easter to all
CA

At 07:33 ðì 20/4/2003 -0400, rod preece wrote:
>I was under the impression that reading novels, like playing cards, was

>held to be a frivolous activity. Engagement in such frippery could only be=

>justified, if at all, after all the serious, mind-improving tasks had been=

>performed satisfactorily. And, yes, that view continued at least until the=

>1950s - I certainly recall it being pounded into me. Moreover,if one did=

>engage in such reading it was only to be edified by the better class of

>novels. Woe betide anyone who was actually caught enjoying them! In fact,=

>I have some hesitancy writing this note on Easter Sunday. If my school
>headmaster had caught me, a strapping would undoubtedly have been in
>order! No one took Bentham seriously that push-penny was as good as

>poetry. The whole puritan world heaved a sigh of relief when John Stuart=

>Mill insisted that quality had to be added to the quantity of pleasure -=

>and, for most, the highest pleasures were decidedly those that were not so=

>pleasurable!
>Rod
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Roland Hall <r...@YORK.AC.UK>
>To: PHIL...@liverpool.ac.uk
>Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 12:01:31 +0100
>Subject: Re: bland examples in moral philosophy
>

>Thody, p. 215, says "only history or theology were seen as suitable readi=
ng
>matter when the mind was at its most alert", and he thinks that Jane Auste=

n
>in ch. 5 of Northanger Abbey "was clearly taking this taboo as one of her
>targets when she defined a novel as "only some work in which the greatest

>powers of the mind are displayed [etc]" [quot. from Austen]. Thody mention=

s
>this taboo on fiction as in place "until the early twentieth century", but
>certainly I read of it in the 1950s, so when did it cease to operate?
> Roland Hall
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Matthew Stapleton" <matthews...@juno.com>
>To: <r...@york.ac.uk>
>Cc: <PHIL...@liverpool.ac.uk>
>Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 11:20 AM
>Subject: Re: bland examples in moral philosophy
>
>
> > Just curious. Why shouldn't one read novels in the morning?
> >
> > be well,
> >
> > Matthew Stapleton
> >
> > %%%%%%%%%%%%
> > http://webpages.marshall.edu/~staple12
> > %%%%%%%%%%%%
> >
>

>Messages to the list are archived at
>http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/archives/philos-l.html.
>Other philosophical resources on the Web can be found at
>http://www.liv.ac.uk/Philosophy/philos.html
>
>Messages to the list are archived at
>http://listserv.liv.ac.uk/archives/philos-l.html.
>Other philosophical resources on the Web can be found at
>http://www.liv.ac.uk/Philosophy/philos.html

==========================
==========================

=======
Dr. Constantinos Athanasopoulos (Ph.D. in Philosophy, Glasgow)
6 Hiolkou St., Kamatero, Athens 13451-Greece
Fax: +30-2-10-2383613, E-mail: cath...@hol.gr
Web Pages (University Lecturer in Philosophy- Philosophical Consultant -CV)
http://homepages.pathfinder.gr/cathanas
http://www.geocities.com/splind0r/indexEN.html
Author of the Modern Ethical Theory book The Ethical Nature and the Freedom
of the Person: Ideas and Personalities of Modern Ethics (16th-19th century)
(in Greek language), ISBN: 960-402-044-7
web-page: http://www.dardanosnet.gr/home/book-details.php?id=914
==========================
==========================

========

[Franklin Wayne Poley]

> From: Constantinos Athanasopoulos <cath...@HOL.GR>

> Peace and uplifting thoughts and wishes for Easter to all

For a current example of moral philosophy in practice, refer to the speech
of former Congressman, Reverend Doctor Edgar, National Council of Churches
CEO at <http://www.nccusa.org/news/03news47.html>. But is this speech
"moral" or just "moralistic"? More of the "bland leading the bland"?

Could Edgar, with all of that NCC help "uplift the world" at the Babylon
Restoration Project site? Let's use this as a hypothetical example of
moral philosophy in practice. Bechtel already has a large contract
in Iraq. They were the general contractors for the construction of Jubail
in Saudi Arabia, so there we have a precedent. Jubail is a city-built-anew
for 100,000 people. How about Babylon II as a model city-built-anew in
Iraq for 100,000?

But first the design features. Why not ask the moral philosophers of the
world online, "how shall we then live"? In the 1970's, the UN asked
13 eminent architects from 13 countries to design and build the village of
PREVI in Peru. This was to be a model village for several thousand, to
provide inspiration to all nations for future lifestyles. Babylon II could
bring together a collection of villages to give us a city plus
surroundings which would be a light to all nations. Most people of the
world live in such settings.

What criteria would be used to decide which design for such a future city
is the best and deserves the expenditure of $100 b+ which was the price
tag on Jubail?

FWP

[Stephen Doty]

Good ones, SS.  I recall an issue in my ethics class was once:

 

Whether one should write one's  name in one's book or not.  Hint: use the categorical imperative. --Steve

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Stephen Satris

To: PHIL...@liverpool.ac.uk

Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 10:55 AM

Subject: Re: bland examples in moral philosophy

[William A. Edmundson]

On novels:

Russell's autobiography recounts his being shown around the reading room =
of an American university library, and triumphantly reports that the only =
student present turned out to be reading a novel.

Ryle, when asked whether he ever read novels, replied instantly, "I read =
all six of them, ever year," suggesting that anything less than Jane =
Austen would not do, whatever the time of day.

>>> LIST...@liverpool.ac.uk 04/20/03 19:00 PM >>>

[Julian Baggini]

Mary Warnock recalls:

"Certainly in Oxford there was a school of philosophy which in a sense was
realist because it thought you could just look at the world and see what
things were right and wrong, but the sort of examples that those people took
were all of the most trivial kind. I'm particularly thinking of Pritchard,
who was a very influential philosopher in Oxford just before the war and
whose books on moral philosophy were full of questions like whether you had
a right to family news, whether you had fulfilled your duty by posting the
letter or only if the letter had been received at the other end, and went on
and on about setting yourself to post the letter."

(From What Philosophers Think, Continuum, 2003,
http://www.philosophers.co.uk/wpt.htm)

btw, could list members PLEASE observe netiquette and delete original
message when replying to list and PLEASE send messages in plain text format.
Otherwise the daily digest becomes more or less unreadable. (A third please:
if you don't agree just ignore me and PLEASE don't start another stupid
debate on list.)

---------------------------------------------
Dr Julian Baggini
The Philosophers' Magazine
98 Mulgrave Road
Sutton, Surrey
SM2 6LZ
United Kingdom
http://www.philosophers.co.uk
---------------------------------------------

[J L Speranza]

R. Hall replies to B. Lerner:

Would it have been Broad, or even Moore? An instance would have been the
reading of novels in the morning, or not returning a matchbox. The first
is a longstanding taboo, I happended to discover only last night, from
Philip Thody's book _Don't Do It!_

M. Stapleton asks:

>Just curious.  Why shouldn't one
>read novels in the morning?

Excuse me, but if we are talking 'bland' examples in moral philosophy, surely the prohibition to read novels _in the morning_ does not entail the permission to read them in the afternoon or night for that matter. It's only delightfully 'implicated'. Whereas the obligation to return a matchbox is _certainly_ universal and exceptionless.

Cheers,

JL

[R Hall]

Yes, 196.

Roland Hall

On Mon, 21 Apr 2003, David Rosenthal wrote:

> You wrote:
>
> > And the use of "7 + 5 = 12" is curious. This is the one, I seem to
> > remember, that occurs in Plato's _Theaetetus_. The late Geoffrey Hunter
> > pointed out to me that Kant has to borrow this as an example.
> > Roland Hall
>

> I'm not finding it in THEAETETUS; do you have a Stephanus
> number?
>
> Many thanks,
>
> --
> David M. Rosenthal
>
> -----------------------------------------------
> Professor, Program in Philosophy
> Coordinator, Cognitive Science Concentration
> Graduate Center, City University of New York
> 365 Fifth Avenue, New York, NY 10016-4309
> http://web.gc.cuny.edu/cogsci/ --or--
> http://artsci.wustl.edu/~drosenth/
> -----------------------------------------------

[R Hall]

Mary Warnock doesn't recall too accurately: Prichard, as he should be
spelt, did not write any books on moral philosophy, but there is a
collection of his articles, _Moral Obligation_. Some of these features are
found there, such as setting oneself to do something; but not the bland
examples we were looking for, e.g. reading novels in the morning.
In fact, his examples can be quite exciting. Here are two:
p. 13 ...the obligation to walk along the side of a precipice to fetch a
doctor for a member of our family.
p. 29 Consider, e.g. our attitude to the question: `Ought we to stop, or
at least slow down, in a car, before entering a main road?'