Brust: Jhereg/500 Years After - question
parme...@iowasp.physics.uiowa.edu
***********************spoiler alert************************
If you have not read all the Vlad books and _500YA_,
this next comment/question may not be something for you.
***********************spoiler alert************************
After finishing _500 Year After_ I decided to reread the Vlad
books. Here is a paragraph from page 167 of Jhereg.
"As you know, it was Mario who finally killed the Emperor,
when he tried to use the Orb against the Jhereg. Another Phoenix
tried to grab the throne, and father had to move too quicky. The
next thing you know, we have a sea of chaos where the city of Dragera
used to be, no Emperor, no Orb, and no Empire. It was close to 200
years before Zerika turned up with the orb."
Can someone resolve this with _500 Years After_? Given that it's
out of Aliera's mouth, I suppose it could be revisionist history, execpt
that this came up in reference to the second Dragon-Jhereg war, and that
wasn't in _500 Years After_.
--
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___ Gregg Parmentier ___ parme...@iowasp.physics.uiowa.edu ___
Mutant for Hire
> After finishing _500 Year After_ I decided to reread the Vlad
>books. Here is a paragraph from page 167 of Jhereg.
> "As you know, it was Mario who finally killed the Emperor,
>when he tried to use the Orb against the Jhereg. Another Phoenix
>tried to grab the throne, and father had to move too quicky. The
>next thing you know, we have a sea of chaos where the city of Dragera
>used to be, no Emperor, no Orb, and no Empire. It was close to 200
>years before Zerika turned up with the orb."
> Can someone resolve this with _500 Years After_? Given that it's
>out of Aliera's mouth, I suppose it could be revisionist history, execpt
>that this came up in reference to the second Dragon-Jhereg war, and that
>wasn't in _500 Years After_.
There is an important difference between the two books. _Phoenix Guards_
and _500 Years After_ are historical fiction. Especially the latter book.
It details events that happened just before the city of Dragera was
destroyed. How many eyewitnesses are there two what happened there? I
can think of seven total. Aliera, Sethra and Mario inside the palace,
with Khaavren, Pel, Tazendra and Aerich just outside the capital. There
is no reason to assume excessive collaboration between any of these
people and our historian.
Also, the historian clearly does not give two figs about either the
Teckla, or the Jhereg. It is also commented that the second Jhereg/Dragon
mixup wasn't well known outside of those two Houses, so the omission of
that fact is not terribly condemning.
Mario's reasons for killing the Emperor do differ between the two books.
In one case, Aliera's word, it was because the Emperor was moving against
the Jhereg. In the other case, it was because he was in love with her.
It is not implausible for either Paarfi to have invented the romance to
spice up the book, or Aliera to be lying to conceal what was going on
between her and Mario. Personally, I think Paarfi is inventing stuff.
As for the second Phoenix trying to take the throne, it is possible that
Paarfi missed that fact, or once more Aliera is lying to cover for her
father. Paarfi missing it isn't impossible. Word of such an event would
not have gotten far past the capital, which was promptly obliterated
along with all of the important eyewitnesses.
A small glitch, harder to explain away is that Vernoi changes genders
between _Taltos_, where Vernoi is a woman and in _500 Years Later_, where
Vernoi is a man.
Someone may want to ask Brust about this.
--
Martin Terman, Mutant for Hire, Synchronicity Daemon, Priest of Shub-Internet
Disclaimer: Sticks and stones may break my bones, but flames are just ignored
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Graydon
parme...@iowasp.physics.uiowa.edu writes:
> ***********************spoiler alert************************
> If you have not read all the Vlad books and _500YA_,
> this next comment/question may not be something for you.
> ***********************spoiler alert************************
>
> After finishing _500 Year After_ I decided to reread the Vlad
>books. Here is a paragraph from page 167 of Jhereg.
>
> "As you know, it was Mario who finally killed the Emperor,
>when he tried to use the Orb against the Jhereg. Another Phoenix
>tried to grab the throne, and father had to move too quicky. The
>next thing you know, we have a sea of chaos where the city of Dragera
>used to be, no Emperor, no Orb, and no Empire. It was close to 200
>years before Zerika turned up with the orb."
>
> Can someone resolve this with _500 Years After_? Given that it's
>out of Aliera's mouth, I suppose it could be revisionist history, execpt
>that this came up in reference to the second Dragon-Jhereg war, and that
>wasn't in _500 Years After_.
Aliera doesn't know what happened at the end with Adron's spell;
it is not too unlikely, after all, that none of the four folks
who were there have told Aliera what happened.
The Second Dragon-Jhereg War happens off-stage during anytime
in the ten or twenty years before :FHYA:; the shortage of Dragon
leadership doesn't have to happen just before the coup attempt
to have the described effect.
The one I can't resolve is Mario's described motivation. Since
the story has to come from Sethra, Mario, or Aliera, this one
is perhaps the 'cannonical' version, and neither of the others
wishes to contradict it. There is certainly no indication in
:FHYA: that I can find that Tortaalik was intending to use the
Orb against anyone at all.
Graydon
Max Rible
> ***********************spoiler alert************************
> If you have not read all the Vlad books and _500YA_,
> this next comment/question may not be something for you.
> ***********************spoiler alert************************
>when he tried to use the Orb against the Jhereg. Another Phoenix
>tried to grab the throne, and father had to move too quicky. The
>next thing you know, we have a sea of chaos where the city of Dragera
>used to be, no Emperor, no Orb, and no Empire. It was close to 200
>years before Zerika turned up with the orb."
> Can someone resolve this with _500 Years After_? Given that it's
>out of Aliera's mouth, I suppose it could be revisionist history, execpt
>that this came up in reference to the second Dragon-Jhereg war, and that
>wasn't in _500 Years After_.
Brust has, on occasion, fiddled with his own history. Somewhere in your
re-read you'll note that Vlad first claims to have obtained Spellbreaker
in Dzur Mountain, but later amends it to fighting an Athyra wizard in his
own castle. Anyone have the exact quote?
--
/-----------------------v-----------------------------------------\
| Max Rible | "Not quite as impressive a volcano god |
| mo...@netcom.com | as we were led to expect!" - Sam & Max |
\-----------------------^-----------------------------------------/
Dawn Marie Neuhart
>re-read you'll note that Vlad first claims to have obtained Spellbreaker
>in Dzur Mountain, but later amends it to fighting an Athyra wizard in his
>own castle. Anyone have the exact quote?
From what I recall, Vlad got Spellbreaker when he was on a mission from
Sethra to retrieve the sword with Aliera's soul. He got it from the
wizard's castle where the sword was located, grabbed the sword and
Morrelan and they went back to Dzur Mountain to give it to Sethra.
-dawn
parme...@iowasp.physics.uiowa.edu
I've finished Jhereg and I have new information which tends
to bedunk this. According to _J_, Mario's assassinating the Emperor
caused Adron to attack earlier than he wanted, but in _500YA_, Adron
new nothing about the assassination until after the spell was cast,
and he was already attacking. Had he known, the spell would never
have needed to have been cast. Also, where is this other Phoenix who
tries to grab the throne after the assassination, but before Adron's
disaster (the whole 15 minutes or so).
> The one I can't resolve is Mario's described motivation. Since
> the story has to come from Sethra, Mario, or Aliera, this one
> is perhaps the 'cannonical' version, and neither of the others
> wishes to contradict it. There is certainly no indication in
> :FHYA: that I can find that Tortaalik was intending to use the
> Orb against anyone at all.
This brings us to: If Mario's part in things was at all known
to the new Phoenix Emperor after the Interegnum, she would have made
hunting down Mario a VERY LARGE PRIORITY. I doubt even Mario could
have survived 243 years of that (up to the start of _Jhereg_.)
One could argue that Mario's part in the disaster was a 'family
secret', kept between Morrolan, Aliera, Sethra, and very close friends.
But then, how did our historian find out?
But, hell, if inconsistancies bothered me, Jack Vance wouldn't
be my favorite author:-)
Mutant for Hire
>Possible spoilers for Brust books continue.
> Paarfi spends much time saying that this isn't quite an historical
>romance, because his facts are correct, and it not a history, because dialog
>and timing are recreated. He makes numerous aversions to having all the
>facts straight and gives examples where specific 'histories' are wrong
>because they didn't look at all the sources he did.
Methinks Paarfi protests far too much. And to be quite frank, all the
important records and nearly all of the eyewitnesses got dissolved into
primal chaos. And some of the eyewitnesses would either not talk about
much that went on, or in the case of Pel, would be less than reliable.
> Most of the information Kragar finds about it in _Jhereg_ are
>from Lyorn records, Vlad mentions that Jhereg records don't mention it
>at all. Obvioulsy records of the various houses are accessable to an
>historian. Paarfi would have had to have read Dragon house histories
>to write such a book, and this should have been enough to bring in the
>Dragon/Jhereg war, since it started at Adron's house.
Its also implied that Kragar has to pull some less than honorable things
and spend a bit of money to get access to some of the records. There is
a question of whether Paarfi would get access to some of the really high
level stuff, which is the level at which the book operates.
parme...@iowasp.physics.uiowa.edu
Possible spoilers for Brust books continue.
In article <1994Apr17.2...@Princeton.EDU>, mfte...@tucson.Princeton.EDU (Mutant for Hire) writes:
> In article <1994Apr17.162257.1@iowasp>, parme...@iowasp.physics.uiowa.edu writes:
>
> There is an important difference between the two books. _Phoenix Guards_
> and _500 Years After_ are historical fiction. Especially the latter book.
> It details events that happened just before the city of Dragera was
> destroyed. How many eyewitnesses are there two what happened there? I
> can think of seven total. Aliera, Sethra and Mario inside the palace,
> with Khaavren, Pel, Tazendra and Aerich just outside the capital. There
> is no reason to assume excessive collaboration between any of these
> people and our historian.
Paarfi spends much time saying that this isn't quite an historical
romance, because his facts are correct, and it not a history, because dialog
and timing are recreated. He makes numerous aversions to having all the
facts straight and gives examples where specific 'histories' are wrong
because they didn't look at all the sources he did.
> Also, the historian clearly does not give two figs about either the
> Teckla, or the Jhereg. It is also commented that the second Jhereg/Dragon
> mixup wasn't well known outside of those two Houses, so the omission of
> that fact is not terribly condemning.
Most of the information Kragar finds about it in _Jhereg_ are
from Lyorn records, Vlad mentions that Jhereg records don't mention it
at all. Obvioulsy records of the various houses are accessable to an
historian. Paarfi would have had to have read Dragon house histories
to write such a book, and this should have been enough to bring in the
Dragon/Jhereg war, since it started at Adron's house.
> Mario's reasons for killing the Emperor do differ between the two books.
> In one case, Aliera's word, it was because the Emperor was moving against
> the Jhereg. In the other case, it was because he was in love with her.
I can see Mario's stated motivation changing for this reason.
This was the easiest problem to resolve:-)
Paarfi doesn't paint himself as infalible. I suppose most of
this depends on how reliable a source we consider Paarfi, do we take
him at his word as to the exhaustiveness of his research, or not.
One of the benefits of another level of authorship: one can
always blame discrepancies on poor research by the fictional author,
but that's to some extent a copout on keeping your works internally
consistant. What I'm really asking here, only Brust can answer it and
you've jogged it loose, is: to what extent did Brust consciously put
inconsistancies into the story? After reading those 400+ pages of
_500YA_ do we we STILL need to hear the real story of Adron's Disaster?
If that's the case I'm very disappointed despite the good writing.
David DeLaney
>between _Taltos_, where Vernoi is a woman and in _500 Years Later_, where
>Vernoi is a man.
>
>Someone may want to ask Brust about this.
Well?
Has Brust *said* "Dragaerans never change sex"? Maybe Vernoi is a Yendi and
is in disguise for some odd reason?
Dave
--
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David DeLaney
>>Brust has, on occasion, fiddled with his own history. Somewhere in your
>>re-read you'll note that Vlad first claims to have obtained Spellbreaker
>>in Dzur Mountain, but later amends it to fighting an Athyra wizard in his
>>own castle. Anyone have the exact quote?
>
>From what I recall, Vlad got Spellbreaker when he was on a mission from
>Sethra to retrieve the sword with Aliera's soul. He got it from the
>wizard's castle where the sword was located, grabbed the sword and
And got told to keep it, so in some sense both are true - he found it
in the castle, but received it in Dzur Mountain...
DAve
Mutant for Hire
>Has Brust *said* "Dragaerans never change sex"? Maybe Vernoi is a Yendi and
>is in disguise for some odd reason?
Wrong. Vernoi is a Phoenix, after all, his wife is the Phoenix heir, and
they can hardly have a crossbreed being the Phoenix heir, at least yet. :)
As for Dragaerans never changing sex, I'd tend to think that it would
have been mentioned as being one of the big differences between humans
and Easterners if they could.
parme...@iowasp.physics.uiowa.edu
> In article <1994Apr18....@martha.utcc.utk.edu>, d...@martha.utcc.utk.edu (David DeLaney) writes:
>>Has Brust *said* "Dragaerans never change sex"? Maybe Vernoi is a Yendi and
>>is in disguise for some odd reason?
>
> Wrong. Vernoi is a Phoenix, after all, his wife is the Phoenix heir, and
> they can hardly have a crossbreed being the Phoenix heir, at least yet. :)
I don't recall which book said it, I've been rereading most of
them, but one said that: regardless of parentage, a Dragaeran is a Phoenix
if a phoenix flys over at the time of the childs birth, and no other way.
Doesn't quite reconcile with the comment: we'll worry about Zerika
being the only Phoenix in 100,000 years or so when we the cycle gets back
there. That was in a Vlad book, _Taltos_, I believe.
If that first statement is in _500YA_, how do we know if it's fact
or hyperbole? Can anyone else remember where it is?
> As for Dragaerans never changing sex, I'd tend to think that it would
> have been mentioned as being one of the big differences between humans
> and Easterners if they could.
Amen! Or, I suppose, "Thank Verra", would be more appropriate:-)
David DeLaney
> Paarfi spends much time saying that this isn't quite an historical
>romance, because his facts are correct, and it not a history, because dialog
>and timing are recreated. He makes numerous aversions to having all the
>facts straight and gives examples where specific 'histories' are wrong
>because they didn't look at all the sources he did.
I think the word you want here is "allusions" instead...
Dave ":-)" DeLaney
David Goldfarb
)one [book] said that: regardless of parentage, a Dragaeran is a Phoenix
)if a phoenix flys over at the time of the childs birth, and no other way.
I read that statement as saying that, to be a Phoenix, you have
to be born of Phoenix parents *and* have a phoenix fly over your house
when you are born, not just that anyone who has the phoenix flyover gets
to be in the House of the Phoenix.
Given that, I have to wonder how the House survived as long as it
did. I have these recurring images of animal handlers stationed outside
the house where a Phoenix lady is in labor, awaiting the signal to let
their captured phoenixes loose...
David Goldfarb |"That's what the dragon *wants* you to think!
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | He doesn't want you to know he exists!"
gold...@UCBOCF.BITNET | "Actually, I just want her to think you're nuts."
gold...@soda.berkeley.edu |"Oh, shut up." -- _Bone_ #3
Fred A Haskell
finding it interesting, and had this to say.
Steven Brust said:
>
>Please pass on the following, specifically to Martin Terman:
>
>The screw-up with Vernoi's sex is a screw-up, and I don't know how I managed
>it; it was one of the (few) things I actually had figured out ahead of time.
>In any case, I was wrong in TALTOS and right in 500 YEARS. The "screw-up"
>with Spellbreaker was deliberate; look at what happens to Vlad during
>TALTOS, and consider how his memory is going to play tricks on him. (And
>the "screw-up" that will be appearing in ORCA concerning how Vlad lost his
>finger is also deliberate; Vlad is not a terribly honest fellow.) But
>you've impressed me a great deal with your analysis of the missing Dragon-
>Jhereg war in 500 YEARS AFTER. Yep. Paarfi doesn't give a rat's ass for
>the Jhereg, and refuses to consider the possibility that Adron harboured
>one, which, in any case, he's heard only as rumors. The romance with Mario
>is more-or-less real; Aliera's words on the subject are true if you look at
>them in a certain light. And I, quite honestly, don't know *where* the
>"other Phoenix" idea came from. Sometimes those characters just say things,
>and I feel obligated to let them talk, even though I know they're spouting
>nonsense. <g>
>
>P.S.: ORCA is slotted for May of '95
So now you know.....
--
Fred A. Levy Haskell | "My will is strong but my won't is weak."
fa...@maroon.tc.umn.edu | -- Cole Porter
Emma Pease
>I've lately been forwarding some of this stuff on to Steve. He's been
>finding it interesting, and had this to say.
...interesting stuff...
It seems it is time to reread the earlier books again now that I've
just finished 500 Years After. I have some rather strong suspicions
about Vlad's mother but want to muster some evidence first before
making a fool of myself.
The Author's note at the end of 500 Years After is amusing; I wonder
if any allusions to Patrick O'Brian and his writings will show up in
Orca (assuming the O'Brian, Brust was referring to is the sea writing
one).
>>P.S.: ORCA is slotted for May of '95
Down in my diary for buying.
Emma Pease
Net Spinster
em...@csli.stanford.edu
David Dyer-Bennet
>The Author's note at the end of 500 Years After is amusing; I wonder
>if any allusions to Patrick O'Brian and his writings will show up in
>Orca (assuming the O'Brian, Brust was referring to is the sea writing
>one).
None struck me.
On the other hand, I found a number of echos of O'Brian in 500YA.
--
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d...@network.com, d...@terrabit.mn.org Minneapolis, MN 55406
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Scott Schwartz
I have no idea how you reached that conclusion.
In 500YA there were eyewitnesses to the relevent events who survived, so
it is possible that the account is true. On the other hand, it is sort
of odd to think that the cycle went from Phoenix to Dragon to Phoenix
during the disaster. At least, that's the only time it has been said to
go backwards, although maybe that's the way it happens on every great
cycle; have to wait for the next one and see.
By the way, I'm worried because the Dumasesq writing style seems less
obtrusive to me after a few rereadings. Don't tell Steven.
Oh, and one other thing: Maybe Devera is Barlan's daughter. There's
precident, after all.
Joel Polowin
>s...@kithrup.com (Sean Eric Fagan) writes:
>> I have no idea how you reached that conclusion.
>
>In 500YA there were eyewitnesses to the relevent events who survived, so
>it is possible that the account is true. On the other hand, it is sort
>of odd to think that the cycle went from Phoenix to Dragon to Phoenix
>during the disaster. At least, that's the only time it has been said to
>go backwards, although maybe that's the way it happens on every great
>cycle; have to wait for the next one and see.
I'll concede the possibility that, as Sean suggests, the Interregnum
essentially resets the Cycle to the Phoenix phase, though there's something
about the concept that bothers me.
>
>By the way, I'm worried because the Dumasesq writing style seems less
>obtrusive to me after a few rereadings. Don't tell Steven.
Don't worry about it unless you find yourself *writing* in that style,
without really noticing it until it's pointed out to you.
>
>Oh, and one other thing: Maybe Devera is Barlan's daughter. There's
>precident, after all.
According to Steven's comments over on the Fido SF echo a year or two
ago, Kieron is Devera's father. No hints on how this comes to be, of course.
And (as suggested by someone on Fido, agreed with by Steven), Aliera's
relationship with Mario is ongoing. We apparently just missed seeing him
in _Jhereg_, near the end when Vlad visits Aliera and finds her in fine
spirits and very relaxed.
Joel
pol...@silicon.chem.queensu.ca, pol...@chem.queensu.ca,
polo...@qucdn.queensu.ca
Sean Eric Fagan
>After all, we *know* that the Cycle hadn't turned, as Zerika became Empress
>later. The Orb could therefore not have attached itself to Adron, leading
>to the mess as Adron's spell tried to work against itself.
Sean Eric Fagan
>of odd to think that the cycle went from Phoenix to Dragon to Phoenix
>during the disaster.
The Cycle was interrupted. Strongly. The Orb was removed from the
plane of existance it normally resided on.
The Cycle began with the first Emperor, Zerika of the House Phoenix.
The Cycle resumed with Zerika II, of the House Phoenix.
Before Zerika I, there was no Orb, and no Cycle.
Before Zerika II, there was no Orb, and no Cycle.
Do you begin to see a resemblance there?
Joel Polowin
>
>Possible spoilers for Brust books continue.
>
>romance, because his facts are correct, and it not a history, because dialog
>and timing are recreated. He makes numerous aversions to having all the
>facts straight and gives examples where specific 'histories' are wrong
>because they didn't look at all the sources he did.
It's clear that Paarfi's description of the botched elder-sorcery spell
that ultimately led to Adron's Disaster can't be correct.
After all, we *know* that the Cycle hadn't turned, as Zerika became Empress
later. The Orb could therefore not have attached itself to Adron, leading
to the mess as Adron's spell tried to work against itself.
Joel
pol...@silicon.chem.queensu.ca, pol...@chem.queensu.ca,
polo...@qucdn.queensu.ca
Evan Middleton
books, until you start speaking in the same flow...without realizing it.
Evan (who slips into it occasionally, but it always ends up as an Irish brogue)
Scott Schwartz
I don't think that you actually have to worry about enjoying the
style of the books, until you start speaking in the same
flow...without realizing it.
Ok, I think I'm safe so far, although I did have to explain it
to some people at a meeting last week.
(Someone said "Chaka, and the walls fell", so I replied "Cha!
I almost think you are right".)
parme...@iowasp.physics.uiowa.edu
There is what's known as a great cycle every seventeen cycles
where a Phoenix follows a decadent Phoenix. Adron belived this to be
the end of a normal cycle where a Dragon will follow a Phoenix, it ended
up being the end of a great cycle. No paradox.
Emma Pease
>In article <Coqr...@knot.ccs.queensu.ca>, pol...@chem.queensu.ca (Joel Polowin) writes:
>>
>> It's clear that Paarfi's description of the botched elder-sorcery spell
>> that ultimately led to Adron's Disaster can't be correct.
> There is what's known as a great cycle every seventeen cycles
>where a Phoenix follows a decadent Phoenix. Adron belived this to be
>the end of a normal cycle where a Dragon will follow a Phoenix, it ended
>up being the end of a great cycle. No paradox.
I think the first writer is referring to why Adron messed up. Paarfi
quotes Adron as stating that it was because the orb had passed to him
(a dragon) hence setting up a loop (Adron trying to steal the orb from
himself). However we, the reader, know that the cycle has not yet
turned to the dragon hence Adron's statement is not correct, and we
still do not know the mechanics of how Adron's disaster came about.
We also have Aliera's statement that Adron lost control (?because the
emperor was killed or would he have lost control regardless) in
Jhereg.
Emma
ps. As far as we know this is the first time a great cycle has ended;
hence, before Zerika took the orb noone knew what was to happen next.
pps. Anyone else notice the reference to the Duke of Arylle
(?spelling, Aerich's title) by Parish (?spelling, the Teckla who told
Vlad his life's story) in Teckla.
ppps. How come Vlad knows virtually nothing of the revolt that took
place in 221 which involved his father, grandfather, and assorted
other relatives? The events in Phoenix take place in 233/4 when Vlad
is about 21 which would make him about 9 when the revolt took place.
Scott Schwartz
pps. Anyone else notice the reference to the Duke of Arylle
(?spelling, Aerich's title) by Parish (?spelling, the Teckla who told
Vlad his life's story) in Teckla.
Yeah. So who'se castle was he occupying? We know Tazendra had some
kind of accident involving an explosion at one time.
ppps. How come Vlad knows virtually nothing of the revolt that took
place in 221 which involved his father, grandfather, and assorted
other relatives? The events in Phoenix take place in 233/4 when Vlad
is about 21 which would make him about 9 when the revolt took place.
He's just not too smart. Cawti is seen to read books (Paarfi's in
fact), Vlad never.
Graydon
> pps. Anyone else notice the reference to the Duke of Arylle
> (?spelling, Aerich's title) by Parish (?spelling, the Teckla who told
> Vlad his life's story) in Teckla.
>Yeah. So who'se castle was he occupying? We know Tazendra had some
>kind of accident involving an explosion at one time.
(Aerich isn't a sorceror, either, but that may have changed post
Interegnum.)
> ppps. How come Vlad knows virtually nothing of the revolt that took
> place in 221 which involved his father, grandfather, and assorted
> other relatives? The events in Phoenix take place in 233/4 when Vlad
> is about 21 which would make him about 9 when the revolt took place.
>He's just not too smart. Cawti is seen to read books (Paarfi's in
>fact), Vlad never.
rather than Easterners-living-in-the-Empire history. Moreover,
he wasn't living in the Eastern section of town, and had *no one*
to talk to other than his father, who wouldn't have told him, and
his grandfather, who wouldn't have told him.
Graydon (and we know that Vlad reads poetry)
Mutant for Hire
> There is what's known as a great cycle every seventeen cycles
>where a Phoenix follows a decadent Phoenix. Adron belived this to be
>the end of a normal cycle where a Dragon will follow a Phoenix, it ended
>up being the end of a great cycle. No paradox.
Supposedly the spell blew up because Adron was at that point the new
Emperor and the spell was acting against himself. More likely Paarfi
got it slightly wrong and that the spell tried to go up against the
Cycle and it blew up in his face. Adron is strong, but the Cycle is
stronger than he is, and the spell's failure caused it to blow up.
I also find it interesting that the book gives exact instructions on
how you kill an Emperor.
James Collins
Graydon <SAUN...@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> wrote:
>In article <CowG...@kithrup.com>>>In article <16FA41393...@qucdn.queensu.ca> SAUN...@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (Graydon) writes:
>>>Vlad's disolving a sorceress in chaos
>>>would appear to have had *no* consequences whatsoever.
>>
>>First of all, were there any witnesses? Not many who were reliable,
>>given the amount of sorcery going on.
>
>What does sorcery have to do with the reliability of witnesses to
>the chaos dissolving? The general melee was _over_ by then, Aliera
Presumably, with a lotta sorcery going on, people would dissapear fast.
Sorta like a gang fight on the street. There aren't too many people that
stick around to watch with bullets flying everywhere...
>had teleported out, and Vlad was lying on the floor, completely
>paralysed. Unless everyone not a Jhereg left the instant the fight
>started (which seems unlikely, given other descriptions of tavern
>fights), there were some people watched to see what happened to the
>uppity easterner who got an awful surprise.
I don't think so, see above. Also, think about this, Aliera had Pathfinder
in Jhereg, didn't she? Would *YOU* stick around if someone started
waving a Morganti weapon around? Especially when it means your soul for
a scratch?
>>Second of all, of the few witnesses, which House were they from,
>>almost certainly? Answer: the Jhereg. And what happens to Jhereg
>>who go to the Empire to rat on their fellow Jhereg?
>
>Ok, so why doesn't Vlad get a visit from someone in the Left Hand
>explaining that they don't appreciate that sort of behaviour and
>will he please not do it again, lest the Empire investigate on
>the basis of rumours into the Jhereg messing around with forbidden
>sorcery?
Probably because he did the job... And saved their money. Also, I doubt
that there were any survivors sticking around to see the endgame...
Since the guards came in at the end, when Aliera was sucking up the
chaos, I doubt that anyone saw Vlad create it. More likely would be the
thought that one of the sorceress's did in the fight...
John J. Palmer
(Graydon) wrote:
>
> In article <CowG...@kithrup.com>
> s...@kithrup.com (Sean Eric Fagan) writes:
> >In article <16FA41393...@qucdn.queensu.ca> SAUN...@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (Graydon) writes:
> >>Vlad's disolving a sorceress in chaos
> >>would appear to have had *no* consequences whatsoever.
> >
> Adron's Disaster is within living memory; anyone over 500 lived
> through some of the side effects, at the very least. People may
> not care that a Jhereg Sorceress losses a fight, but do you really
> mean to sugguest that they won't care if an Easterner (and a Jhereg)
> disolves someone in chaos? In a crowded tavern at dinner time?
>
> I find that a very large frog that I don't even want to *try* to
> swallow.
>
> Graydon
That part of Jhereg always bugged me, the ol' Deus ex Machina.
I really think Steve could have come up with a better Out for that scene; I
just think that gene-reincarnation link is too tenuous, plus Vlad being
able to do it on his first try.
John J. Palmer - MDA-SSD M&P pal...@ssdgwy.mdc.com OR
palmer#d#john.ssd-hb_#l#15&22#r#@ssdgwy.mdc.com
"Truth, Justice, and The American Way*"
*Defined here as Home Brewing, Seconds on Pie, and the Pursuit of Science.
>My file, How to Brew Your First Beer, containing info on equipment, terms, brewing processes and troubleshooting, is available via FTP from Homebrew/Docs at sierra.stanford.edu
Sean Eric Fagan
>I really think Steve could have come up with a better Out for that scene; I
>just think that gene-reincarnation link is too tenuous, plus Vlad being
>able to do it on his first try.
That's just it. It's not really genetic: it's in the soul.
I do hope he does something with all of that, however. As it is, it was
just something thrown in to one book to cause him a bit of soul searching,
but, other than that, didn't need to be there.
On the other hand, Kieron recognized Vlad, and I'd bet that Verra also
knows about his past lives. So those are two ways he could bring it back
up.
Graydon
hun...@kaiwan.com (James Collins) writes:
>In article <16FA5C374...@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>,
>Graydon <SAUN...@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> wrote:
>>In article <CowG...@kithrup.com>
>>s...@kithrup.com (Sean Eric Fagan) writes:
>>>In article <16FA41393...@qucdn.queensu.ca> SAUN...@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (Graydon) writes:
>>>>Vlad's disolving a sorceress in chaos
>>>>would appear to have had *no* consequences whatsoever.
>>>
>>>First of all, were there any witnesses? Not many who were reliable,
>>>given the amount of sorcery going on.
>>What does sorcery have to do with the reliability of witnesses to
>>the chaos dissolving? The general melee was _over_ by then, Aliera
>Presumably, with a lotta sorcery going on, people would dissapear fast.
>Sorta like a gang fight on the street. There aren't too many people that
>stick around to watch with bullets flying everywhere...
that those who were looking on saw a stream of something like
formless, colourless fire shoot from me toward the tall sorceress
with the finger pointing off into the air, who never saw it coming."
It's after that the the screaming starts and the mass exodus begins -
no one even tries to do something about it, which I think is a good
clue that there was some general recognition of what it was.
(After all, I'd expect that there is a certain amount of 'this
is chaos; do not mess with it') in most sorceror's advanced
educations.
>I don't think so, see above. Also, think about this, Aliera had Pathfinder
>in Jhereg, didn't she? Would *YOU* stick around if someone started
>waving a Morganti weapon around? Especially when it means your soul for
>a scratch?
does what I tell it' and that Baron whatzahozits of the house of the
Athyra is able to come back as undead, despite being killed by
Blackwand.
Also note Vlad's comments about Morganti daggers - the Empire pitches
the rules out the window - and the number of duels Aliera and Morrolan
habitually fight, and that no one has died permanently in Castle Black
since Morrolan has had the place built, and one gets the very strong
impression that people with Great Weapons generally leave the
soul-destroying function *off*, lest the Empress get really annoyed
and blast them to flinders with the Orb.
>>Ok, so why doesn't Vlad get a visit from someone in the Left Hand
>>explaining that they don't appreciate that sort of behaviour and
>>will he please not do it again, lest the Empire investigate on
>>the basis of rumours into the Jhereg messing around with forbidden
>>sorcery?
>Probably because he did the job... And saved their money. Also, I doubt
>that there were any survivors sticking around to see the endgame...
>Since the guards came in at the end, when Aliera was sucking up the
>chaos, I doubt that anyone saw Vlad create it. More likely would be the
>thought that one of the sorceress's did in the fight...
yeah. But it's not a plausible reason for the witnesses not to
talk about it, or the Phoenix Guards to not take note of the
large, large hole in the tavern, nor for the incident to not
be talked about.
Anyone who bothers to do a bit of digging can find out that
Vlad really did disolve someone in chaos, and it seems really
really unlikely for *no one* to have done that, and for
no one who *has* done that to start wondering about _how_.
Graydon
Graydon
>(Graydon) wrote:
>> Adron's Disaster is within living memory; anyone over 500 lived
>> through some of the side effects, at the very least. People may
>> not care that a Jhereg Sorceress losses a fight, but do you really
>> mean to sugguest that they won't care if an Easterner (and a Jhereg)
>> disolves someone in chaos? In a crowded tavern at dinner time?
>
>I really think Steve could have come up with a better Out for that scene; I
>just think that gene-reincarnation link is too tenuous, plus Vlad being
>able to do it on his first try.
the truth, and Vlad does other impossible things.
I am more and more convinced that Vlad isn't quite as plain
an Easterner as he thinks he is. A friend of mine sugguested
that he's about where Crusikari is in :The Gypsy:, just before
he figures out that he doesn't need to eat.
I also think it has huge implications that are going to be
relevant to fixing the Cycle and sorting out what the
status of Easterners is within the Empire, but Vlad hasn't
even begun to notice that stuff yet.
Graydon
David Hawkins
Joel Polowin <pol...@chem.queensu.ca> wrote:
>I'll concede the possibility that, as Sean suggests, the Interregnum
>essentially resets the Cycle to the Phoenix phase, though there's something
>about the concept that bothers me.
Nope. In 500 Years After the point is made that Adron wasn't going to
succeed because it was only just now that the cycle had gone to the
Dragon with the clear inference that it had been Phoenix up to this
point.
later, david
--
David Hawkins dh...@netcom.com
"One can aquire everything in solitude -- except character."
-- Stendhal
Graydon
>how you kill an Emperor.
won't be fooled again (does the Orb have a 'kind of sentience'?)
or the Orb _was_ changed by its sojourn in the Paths of the Dead
or the Emperor has sorcerous protection spells against physical
attack that are directly driven by the Orb, so that any attempt
to take the protections down by sorcery results in an incinerated
sorceror.
It's a loophole, but I expect that it's a _closed_ loophole -
Paarfi doesn't seem the sort to risk having Sethra, or Norathar's
friends, show up on his doorstep and explain that he has erred.
There is also that pre-Empire sorcery is still illegal, but
it doesn't sound like something as serious as it would be if
it was still a potential means to assasinate the Emperor.
Morrolan may well be very well connected, and therefor able to
get away with it, but Vlad's disolving a sorceress in chaos
would appear to have had *no* consequences whatsoever. Which
is damned odd, now that I think about it. Maybe Vlad is going
to get into the House of the Dragon on the grounds that only
the e'Kieron line of the House of the Dragon has the power to
create chaos? (_why them_?) But I don't think the Phoenix
Guards would have any trouble finding Vlad if the subsequent
investigation determined that he was using pre-Empire sorcery
for nasty purposes in a tavern. (did Aliera or Morrolan get
the charges quashed?)
The more I think about this, the more it's bugging me. It seems
very out of character for a Drageran to decide that it was some
kind of witchcraft they hadn't seen yet (!), and, even if everyone
left at high speed, we *know* Vlad was recognized by the Jhereg
in the room - why hasn't this affected his reputation? Or has it,
and we haven't found out yet because Vlad hasn't found out?
Then there is the awful question of *how* Vlad did it, and if he
can work it into a witchcraft spell, or, come to think of it, if
Vlad's going to have the bright idea that the Orb can be used to
add energy to a witchcraft spell - he used energy from the Orb
to power the creation of chaos, after all, and creating chaos is
very emphatically *not* sorcery - it isn't even pre-empire
sorcery.
Oh dear, I think I've made my head hurt...
Graydon
Sean Eric Fagan
>I also find it interesting that the book gives exact instructions on
>how you kill an Emperor.
You assume that Paarfi got what Adron did wrong, yet you're willing to
assume that how Mario killed the Emporer, something very few people know
and would be willing to talk about, was right?
I suspect it doesn't matter, however: the Orb is similar to a Great
Weapon, and can, one guesses, "learn."
Sean Eric Fagan
>would appear to have had *no* consequences whatsoever.
You did not think very much about it.
First of all, were there any witnesses? Not many who were reliable,
given the amount of sorcery going on.
Second of all, of the few witnesses, which House were they from,
almost certainly? Answer: the Jhereg. And what happens to Jhereg
who go to the Empire to rat on their fellow Jhereg?
Thirdly, even assuming anyone said anything, what makes you think it couldn't
be done by normal sorcery? And since she was about to kill Vlad, it counts
as self-defense.
Fourthy, as you did think about, two very high ranking, and quite powerful,
Dragons, plus whatever Sethra is, would all speak up and tell anyone who
investigated to kindly drop the case.
Lastly, since nobody would have said anything, what makes you think anyone
would *care* if a sorceress from the Left Hand of the Jhereg vanished?
It's a relatively common occurance, I would guess. And remember that we
know absolutely *nothing* about the internal politics of the Bitch Patrol.
Graydon
>>Vlad's disolving a sorceress in chaos
>>would appear to have had *no* consequences whatsoever.
>
>given the amount of sorcery going on.
the chaos dissolving? The general melee was _over_ by then, Aliera
paralysed. Unless everyone not a Jhereg left the instant the fight
started (which seems unlikely, given other descriptions of tavern
fights), there were some people watched to see what happened to the
uppity easterner who got an awful surprise.
>almost certainly? Answer: the Jhereg. And what happens to Jhereg
>who go to the Empire to rat on their fellow Jhereg?
explaining that they don't appreciate that sort of behaviour and
will he please not do it again, lest the Empire investigate on
the basis of rumours into the Jhereg messing around with forbidden
sorcery?
>be done by normal sorcery? And since she was about to kill Vlad, it counts
>as self-defense.
he did it. It can't be done by normal sorcery according to Aliera,
who ought to know - Morrolan can only *manipulate* chaos with pre-empire
sorcery, not create it, since he's not of the e'Kieron line of the
House of the Dragon. Based on the response, many of the people in that
bar recognized that effect as raw chaos - no one even *tried* to do
anything about it, they all just screamed and fled. ('this is chaos;
don't mess with it' would seem a logical part of every sorceror's
advanced training, after all.)
The bit about the e'Kieron line of the House of the Dragon is probably
not widely know, but it is probably known in certain esoteric circles.
None of them have done anything (that we've seen) to check the story
out or talk to Vlad or anything like that. That's peculiar.
>Fourthy, as you did think about, two very high ranking, and quite powerful,
>Dragons, plus whatever Sethra is, would all speak up and tell anyone who
>investigated to kindly drop the case.
curious wizard in the Empire, some of whom must surely be curious.
It might explain why Zerika takes Vlad so seriously; she may have
had the full explanation from Aliera about what was going on.
>Lastly, since nobody would have said anything, what makes you think anyone
>would *care* if a sorceress from the Left Hand of the Jhereg vanished?
>It's a relatively common occurance, I would guess. And remember that we
>know absolutely *nothing* about the internal politics of the Bitch Patrol.
through some of the side effects, at the very least. People may
not care that a Jhereg Sorceress losses a fight, but do you really
mean to sugguest that they won't care if an Easterner (and a Jhereg)
disolves someone in chaos? In a crowded tavern at dinner time?
John J. Palmer
mind when he wrote it, if not, then he is doing an very credible job of
bringing everything to closure. These ARE some of my favorite books.
David DeLaney
>s...@kithrup.com (Sean Eric Fagan) writes:
>>SAUN...@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (Graydon) writes:
>>>Vlad's disolving a sorceress in chaos
>>>would appear to have had *no* consequences whatsoever.
>>
>>be done by normal sorcery? And since she was about to kill Vlad, it counts
>>as self-defense.
>
>No one minds Vlad killing the sorceress; what they may mind is how
>he did it. It can't be done by normal sorcery according to Aliera,
>who ought to know - Morrolan can only *manipulate* chaos with pre-empire
>sorcery, not create it, since he's not of the e'Kieron line of the
>House of the Dragon. Based on the response, many of the people in that
>bar recognized that effect as raw chaos - no one even *tried* to do
>anything about it, they all just screamed and fled. ('this is chaos;
>don't mess with it' would seem a logical part of every sorceror's
>advanced training, after all.)
Considering that, as you say below, the *last* Chaos disaster is still in
living memory, and what happened the *last* two times chaos got loose,
is it any wonder they screamed and ran? Sticking around to see who did
it and why would probably be *far* down the list of panic priorities...
and thinking that an Easterner Jhereg *created* chaos, which probably
almost everybody "knows" is impossible, isn't something they're going to
recall afterwards, after the heat of the moment fades...
>Adron's Disaster is within living memory; anyone over 500 lived
>through some of the side effects, at the very least. People may
>not care that a Jhereg Sorceress losses a fight, but do you really
>mean to sugguest that they won't care if an Easterner (and a Jhereg)
>dissolves someone in chaos? In a crowded tavern at dinner time?
They might wonder what happened that *stopped* it - but the event itself
would probably overshadow "an Easterner did this" in their memories...
Dave "assuming they even saw the quick almost colorless streak that started
it (not a quote, but a jumbled memory thereof)" DeLaney
--
David DeLaney: d...@utkux.utcc.utk.edu; WARNING: DO NOT PUT BEANS IN YOUR EARS!
Disclaimer: UTK agree with me? Yeah, right...; Thinking about this disclaimer__
may cause offense, brain seizure, confusion, or particle physics. VRbeableDJK\/
http://enigma.phys.utk.edu/~dbd for net.legends FAQ+miniFAQs; ftp: cathouse.org
Graydon
d...@martha.utcc.utk.edu (David DeLaney) writes:
>>>SAUN...@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (Graydon) writes:
>>>>Vlad's disolving a sorceress in chaos
>>>>would appear to have had *no* consequences whatsoever.
>living memory, and what happened the *last* two times chaos got loose,
>is it any wonder they screamed and ran? Sticking around to see who did
>it and why would probably be *far* down the list of panic priorities...
>and thinking that an Easterner Jhereg *created* chaos, which probably
>almost everybody "knows" is impossible, isn't something they're going to
>recall afterwards, after the heat of the moment fades...
Thing is, _Vlad's_ description of the event is derived from 'what
he heard later', and that includes that the streak of 'something
like formless, colourless fire' orginated with him. (What _else_
is it going to originate from? Random passersby? :)
>>Adron's Disaster is within living memory; anyone over 500 lived
>>through some of the side effects, at the very least. People may
>>not care that a Jhereg Sorceress losses a fight, but do you really
>>mean to sugguest that they won't care if an Easterner (and a Jhereg)
>>dissolves someone in chaos? In a crowded tavern at dinner time?
>They might wonder what happened that *stopped* it - but the event itself
>would probably overshadow "an Easterner did this" in their memories...
>
>Dave "assuming they even saw the quick almost colorless streak that started
> it (not a quote, but a jumbled memory thereof)" DeLaney
got back to Vlad - 'I have heard, since, that those who were looking
on saw a stream of something like formless, colourless fire shoot
from me toward the tall sorceress with the finger pointing off into
Even more interesting is that Vlad appears to have powered it via
sorceress energy from the Orb, at least from the POV that considers
what, or who, Vlad is, which, according to Verra, he doesn't know yet.
(tangent - Spellbreaker descript, pg 209, Phoenix - 'It was very cool
in my hand, and alive like a Morganti weapon was alive, yet different.')
So I think it really _is_ established that Vlad disolved someone in
chaos in front of witnesses.
Now, yes, things got generally hectic all over the place shortly
thereafter, and Imperial Justice works on Drageran time scales,
but still, one would think that it would have _some_ repercussions.
Graydon