[DS9] Lynch's Spoiler Review: "Tacking Into the Wind"
Timothy W. Lynch
upon some DS9 spoilers.
In brief: A bit obvious in a few spots, but definitely a solid outing.
======
Written by: Ronald D. Moore
Directed by: Mike Vejar
Brief summary: Kira and company head out on a crucial espionage
mission for the Federation, Odo's condition worsens, and Worf finds
the fate of the Klingon Empire resting in his hands.
======
Now that's more like it. I said last week that "When It Rains..."
wasn't bad, but was somewhat padded in terms of setting for future
material. Well, where "When It Rains..." was setup, "Tacking Into
the Wind" is the beginning of the payoff, and as such is an episode
where you're more likely to sit back and enjoy the ride. The episode
isn't always as meaty as it might be, but it's tackling an awful lot.
Perhaps astonishingly, one of the meatiest sections of the show came
from our gallant band of Klingons. After "When It Rains...", I
wondered if we were seeing Gowron in the mix simply for the sake of
more upheaval; as it turns out, we're actually seeing the Empire turn
a corner, and we may in fact have achieved some Klingon Klosure. As
we begin, it's evident that Gowron's offensive posture is doing the
war and the Empire little good, and everyone knows it except for
Gowron himself. Worf takes that a step further, and suggests to Sisko
that Gowron may be doing this simply to eliminate Martok as a
political competitor. (It wouldn't be the first time, he notes, that
a chancellor has put personal gain ahead of the greater good.) Sisko
tells Worf in no uncertain terms that Gowron needs to be stopped, and
stopped now. Crossing the line in terms of interfering in a sovereign
nation's politics? Well, yes, probably -- but it's not like this is
the first time Sisko's done that.
Worf then does something which, while necessary, is about the most
difficult choice for our "honorabler-than-thou" Klingon to make: he
counsels Martok to challenge Gowron openly for the leadership of the
Empire. Martok, currently recovering from injuries, refuses for a
whole host of reasons, one of which is that it would be betraying his
oath of fealty.
What follows is a conversation I've wanted to see for some time, even
if I hadn't quite realized it. Worf tells Ezri of the situation, and
after some hesitation she shares her thoughts with Worf. Those
thoughts are blunt, to the point, and something we've never heard a
"good guy" say so dispassionately: the Empire is dying -- collapsing
under the weight of its leaders' corruption and everyone else's
complacency -- and that it should be allowed to die
I've been saying for quite some time that we need to see a "cleansing"
of the Federation, as I've had worries about the top brass there. I
never expected to see a serious attempt at that, and I still may not
see it -- but the fact that the DS9 staff is seriously trying to make
sweeping changes in the Klingon Empire, the mainstay of modern Trek,
is a surprise in and of itself. What Worf does in response to Ezri's
suggestion is almost icing on the cake; it's the suggestion itself
which carries the most interest, and is a conversation I was very glad
to see.
Some of Worf's later actions are less than surprising: after hearing
Gowron mistreat Martok yet again and set him up for another fall, Worf
challenges Gowron himself, acknowledging his dual allegiance while
challenging Gowron strictly as a member of the House of Martok. The
traditional fight ensues, and Worf winds up winning. (No real
surprise there, though seeing them actually kill off Gowron was
impressive.) In one final twist, however, he refuses the leadership
mantle that is given to him, instead telling all parties that Martok
is the man to lead a new age of Klingons. Thus, low-born Martok finds
himself in a role he did not covet: that of supreme leader.
There are two interesting parallels here to notice. First, this isn't
the first time Worf has taken an active role in Klingon succession
politics by knifing someone: by killing Duras way back in TNG's
"Reunion," after all, Worf is the one primarily responsible for
putting Gowron *into* power. Second, this isn't the first time Worf
has played kingmaker: with Kahless' return in TNG's "Rightful Heir,"
it was Worf who came up with a solution that everyone could live with.
(We also got a sense there of how little Gowron likes rivals who can
rally the faith of the people.) Ron Moore had a substantial hand in
writing both stories, and I suspect he consciously echoed pieces of
them here to bring the saga of the Empire to a possible close. We may
well have more Klingon stories in the future given Voyager and future
series, but we also may not -- and as an ending place, putting Martok
on the throne has a lot to recommend it.
The other "main" storyline went back to Kira and her team's assistance
in Damar's rebellion. Like the Klingon material, this work could be
named "The Old Order Changeth," but although successful it wound up
being a little less interesting than Worf's situation.
Some of what we saw here involved the continued strife between Kira
and Gul Rosot, only this time we get a little bit more of a reason for
it than we did in "When It Rains...". Rosot is convinced that Kira's
in this solely to have a chance to kill more Cardassians (indirectly
this time instead of directly), and as such he views all of her orders
with a suspicion bordering on the paranoid. He promises Kira swift
retribution once the Dominion is defeated, but through Garak we're led
to believe he won't wait that long. There's nothing bad here, but
it's not hugely compelling either, since there's no reason for us to
realistically fear for Kira's life.
The payoff on this story, however, comes from Damar. In the end, he
needs to make a choice between Rosot and Kira. The surprise isn't
that he chooses Kira: it's the means by which his new-found conviction
comes about. It turns out that Weyoun has managed to locate Damar's
wife and son, and has had them killed in retaliation for Damar's
rebellion. When Damar hears the news, he is visibly upset by Weyoun's
brutality, asking "What kind of people give those orders?" Kira, in a
move that's true to herself but lousy on timing, immediately turns the
question back on Damar, reminding him implicitly that many Cardassians
gave *exactly* those orders during the Occupation. (I like the fact
that she berated herself moments later for her timing; it's nice when
characters acknowledge their own missteps.)
It turns out, though, that Garak's reassurance to Kira is on target:
Damar really has turned a corner, and is enough of a man that he can
accept Kira's criticism as valid. Damar, then, doesn't just wind up
shooting Rosot to save Kira -- he shoots down Rosot's entire idea of
what Cardassia should be, promising something better when all of this
is over. Just as Worf played kingmaker for Martok, then, Kira has in
some ways been the catalyst for Damar's new righteousness -- only hers
was unintentional. Interesting.
The actual mission Kira carries out is somewhat less important, but
intriguing: they decide to capture an intact Breen weapon so as to let
the Federation develop a workable defense. The mission goes
reasonably well, thanks to Odo's ability to disguise himself as the
female Founder and Kira's ability to disguise her voice and bearing as
that of a Vorta. I'm not surprised in the least that the mission was
successful, but in execution the scenes came off quite well.
Meanwhile, the Founders' disease is affecting Odo far faster than it
has anyone else, and Odo theorizes it's because he's had to change
forms so often on his current mission. Garak discovers Odo's true
condition early on, but Odo swears Garak to secrecy, not wanting Kira
to worry about him, and wanting Kira's pity even less. Odo's pain
comes through very clearly in the few scenes he's in, and matters are
made all the more poignant when we discover that Kira known full well
how badly Odo's doing, and is keeping her own knowledge secret to
allow Odo his dignity.
The only real hope for Odo, it seems, lies with Bashir ... and as we
discover very early on, he's not having a lot of luck. There's some
honest tension between him and O'Brien for a while as they debate
options, and that tension is refreshing just on its own merits: it's
been a long time since one character has told another "now, if you'll
kindly get the *hell* out of here, I have work to do." While the two
mend fences later, the honest conflict is nice.
As for O'Brien's idea: we'll see. Yes, pretending to have a cure so
that Section 31 will send an operative out to "fetch" Bashir might be
the best chance they have: but it also seems a pretty obvious gambit,
and one that's far more likely to get Bashir and O'Brien killed
outright than any leads. If Section 31 has been falling for that one
for 300 years, it's a wonder they're still around. (Based on the
preview, I have a pretty good idea of which operative they'll send,
and I have some serious questions about *that* wisdom as well. Why
not send one nobody on DS9 knows?)
For a change, "Tacking Into the Wind" spends almost no time on the
villains. Winn and Dukat don't show up at all, which is a surprise:
if several weeks have gone by since the previous episode (as is
strongly implied), then one wonders how Dukat's doing out on the
street. Weyoun and the Founder only get a single scene, but from that
scene it's obvious that Weyoun's days are numbered as soon as the
cloning facility is back up to speed, and that the Founder is getting
even more ruthless as she gets more desperate. Nothing gigantically
compelling here, but it's engaging enough.
Other thoughts:
-- No Ezri romance issues for a change. Whew!
-- Although I have my doubts about Bashir and O'Brien's plan, I do
like the fact that we're not seeing Bashir pull a medical miracle out
of some random body part.
-- Um ... Worf? If you're talking about opposing Gowron, doing it
publicly at Quark's is probably not the best of ideas...
-- I liked very much the fact that Damar *was* recognized by the
Cardassian guards, but was let through with tacit support.
-- I do wonder about the logic of sending those five people on Kira's
mission, though. Kira and Odo had necessary uses, and Garak has a lot
of experience, but why the others, especially when Damar's face is so
well-known throughout the Cardassian Union?
-- Even given that DS9 was once a Cardassian station, I thought the
redressing on the other station could have been a bit better.
-- One wonders why exactly Damar had to kill Rosot outright. Couldn't
he have shot to wound? The point would still have been made, and it's
not as though the rebellion is overflowing with soldiers at this
point...
-- Using Cardassian civilians as shields is a rather timely act on the
Founder's part, given recent events in Kosovo.
-- Wouldn't the Dominion have been better off taking Damar's family
hostage rather than killing them? If that part was Weyoun's idea,
chalk another tactical blunder up to the Vorta... (On the other hand,
Damar and company went right aboard the Cardassian shuttle without
much proof of the crew's veracity, which isn't too bright either.)
-- One sour note on the Kira/Damar/Garak material: as others mentioned
last week, there seems to be no trace of animosity between Garak and
Damar, and that doesn't seem to track given Damar's murder of Ziyal.
-- Look at Nana Visitor's face when Garak breaks the news about Odo.
Just from her reaction, you can tell that Kira already knew before she
ever says a word.
That should do for now. Some of "Tacking Into the Wind" is clearly
setup more than a complete story (particularly the Bashir material,
which is obviously leading into next week), but there's enough closure
for me to feel satisfied, and I'm somewhat surprised at how much I
liked the Klingon material. Definitely a worthwhile hour.
So, wrapping up:
Writing: At worst, it's a little obvious in spots and has slightly
clunky logic. At best, it's got breathtaking stuff like
Ezri's blunt advice to let the Empire die. A lot of character
payoff here.
Directing: One of Vejar's better offerings, and that's saying something.
Acting: No complaints.
OVERALL: 9, I think. Not perfect, but very strong.
NEXT WEEK:
Cure, cure, who's got the cure?
Tim Lynch (Harvard-Westlake School, Science Dept.)
tly...@alumni.caltech.edu <*>
"To kill her and my son ... the casual brutality of it ... a waste of
life. What kind of state tolerates the murder of innocent women and
children? What kind of people give those orders?"
"Yeah, Damar -- what kind of people give those orders?"
-- Damar and Kira
--
Copyright 1999, Timothy W. Lynch. All rights reserved, but feel free to ask...
This article is explicitly prohibited from being used in any off-net
compilation without due attribution and *express written consent of the
author*. Walnut Creek and other CD-ROM distributors, take note.
R. John Madsen
> he have shot to wound? The point would still have been made, and it's
> not as though the rebellion is overflowing with soldiers at this
> point...
Wounding Rusot wouldn't have done anything except create an enemy for Damar. He
correctly realized that he had to make a choice between the Kira-style resistance,
with a future of cooperation amongst all of the Alpha quadrant races (perhaps
without the Breen), OR the Cardassians-only club that Rusot advocated.
It was a tough choice to make, and I was glad to see the writers make the hard
choice. As Damar stated - - his (Rusot's) Cardassia is dead.
> (On the other hand, Damar and company went right aboard the Cardassian shuttle
> without much proof of the crew's veracity, which isn't too bright either.)
Just because we're not shown some sort of identification / authentication doesn't
necessarily mean that it didn't take place.
Dave Spiro
Timothy W. Lynch wrote in message <7ho3it$6...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>...
>
>-- Although I have my doubts about Bashir and O'Brien's plan, I do
>like the fact that we're not seeing Bashir pull a medical miracle out
>of some random body part.
Agreed about that. I think the so-called "plan" is quite thin. Section 31
should be smart enough to see through something that thinly veiled.
>-- Um ... Worf? If you're talking about opposing Gowron, doing it
>publicly at Quark's is probably not the best of ideas...
In human society, yes. In Klingon society, I would think it would be
perfectly appropriate, especially in this instance. Worf said it best when
he spoke about how the others in the room would not say what he said,
regarding Gowrons leadership. Let's face it: the other generals in the room
were probably hoping this would happen, although they probably expected it
from Martok.
>
>-- One wonders why exactly Damar had to kill Rosot outright. Couldn't
>he have shot to wound? The point would still have been made, and it's
>not as though the rebellion is overflowing with soldiers at this
>point...
Damar realizes that keeping Rosot in the picture, even in the sidelines
would seriously endanger any hope for the rebellion. And besides, wounding
Rosot would have made him even more dangerous. All Rosot had to do was to
spread word that Damar attacked a fellow Cardassian, and that might have
stirred the pot a little too much. This way, he kills him on the mission,
and no one knows except the rest of the boarding party. It is easy to see
that Damar hated doing what he did, but he realized the overriding concerns
were the success of the misison. Rosot was clearly a danger to that mission.
>-- Using Cardassian civilians as shields is a rather timely act on the
>Founder's part, given recent events in Kosovo.
You noticed that too, huh?
Also of note, the scene with Damar and Kira after Damar finds out abut his
family. The pure venom in Kira's response to Damar regarding "What kind of
people..........", was perfect! Damar's stunned reaction was also terrific.
--
David Spiro
"Will you still have a song to sing when the Razor Boy comes
and takes your fancy things away."
Steely Dan
Liver transplant - 8/1/97
RECYCLE YOURSELF! BE AN ORGAN DONOR!
mumford
>>like the fact that we're not seeing Bashir pull a medical miracle out
>>of some random body part.
>
>
>should be smart enough to see through something that thinly veiled.
The should be... but in all honesty, that doesn't matter one bit. They
still *have* to check it out since it is possible.
--
Glenn Lamb - mum...@netcom.com. Finger for my PGP Key.
Email to me must have my address in either the To: or Cc: field. All other
mail will be bounced automatically as spam.
PGPprint = E3 0F DE CC 94 72 D1 1A 2D 2E A9 08 6B A0 CD 82
David E. Sluss
[snips of good stuff, which I generally agree with]
>Other thoughts:
>
>-- No Ezri romance issues for a change. Whew!
Word. And, though most won't agree, I can't say I missed the Winn
storyline, either, since I haven't bought into a lot of her actions or
characterization there. I wouldn't have minded a scene of Dukat as
beggar, though...
[...]
>-- I do wonder about the logic of sending those five people on Kira's
>mission, though. Kira and Odo had necessary uses, and Garak has a lot
>of experience, but why the others, especially when Damar's face is so
>well-known throughout the Cardassian Union?
Here's a bit of Trekkie Rationalization I posted elsewhere for this:
"The mission was sort of a rush job, undertaken when Kira learned that
Breen weapons were being installed on Dominion ships. The other men
in Damar's cell had just botched a mission, as seen in the teaser, and
there may not have been a lot of other warm bodies to pick from.
Damar probably also has more familiarity with Jem'hadar vessels than
anyone else available at the time, having flown around in them for
over a year." I do think Damar at the very least should have remained
in the shuttle until the rest of the group had secured the Dominion
ship, although he did maintain as low a profile as possible under the
circumstances, standing behind the others out of the light of sight of
the Vorta, for instance...
>-- Even given that DS9 was once a Cardassian station, I thought the
>redressing on the other station could have been a bit better.
Yeah, it was a little surreal when the Merry Men walked through the
trademarked Gear Airlocks...
>-- One wonders why exactly Damar had to kill Rosot outright. Couldn't
>he have shot to wound? The point would still have been made, and it's
>not as though the rebellion is overflowing with soldiers at this
>point...
I'm not sure, were they still packing the Dominion rifles they took
from the ship's crew, or had they retrieved their own from the storage
locker? If it's the former, we've seen before that Dominion phasers
appear to have only a "kill" setting.
[...]
--
// David E. Sluss (The Cynic) \\ // "I'm impatient with \\
//_________ sluss%dhp.com _________\\//__ stupidity. My people have __\\
\\ Cynics Corner Interactive //\\ learned to live without it." //
\\ http://users.dhp.com/~sluss // \\ Klaatu //
mumford
>tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) wrote:
>[snips of good stuff, which I generally agree with]
>
>>mission, though. Kira and Odo had necessary uses, and Garak has a lot
>>of experience, but why the others, especially when Damar's face is so
>>well-known throughout the Cardassian Union?
>
>"The mission was sort of a rush job, undertaken when Kira learned that
>Breen weapons were being installed on Dominion ships. The other men
>in Damar's cell had just botched a mission, as seen in the teaser, and
>there may not have been a lot of other warm bodies to pick from.
>Damar probably also has more familiarity with Jem'hadar vessels than
>anyone else available at the time, having flown around in them for
>over a year." I do think Damar at the very least should have remained
>in the shuttle until the rest of the group had secured the Dominion
>ship, although he did maintain as low a profile as possible under the
>circumstances, standing behind the others out of the light of sight of
>the Vorta, for instance...
Rush job or no, you don't send your leaders on a potential one-way
mission. In fact, you don't send your leaders on *any* mission.
The only person who was _absolutely_ needed for that plan was Odo.
Of course, this is the standard ST we-can't-hire-extras-every-week-
so-send-the-regulars-on-the-dangerous-mission fair.
On a side note, can someone explain to me how big human-sized Odo can
morph into a pair of handcuffs that Kira can carry?
Thomas Bagwell
news:tcwwbhFB...@netcom.com...
> tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>
> >WARNING: While sailing along and "Tacking Into the Wind," I
happened
> >upon some DS9 spoilers.
> >
> >In brief: A bit obvious in a few spots, but definitely a solid
outing.
> >
>
>
> >-- One sour note on the Kira/Damar/Garak material: as others
mentioned
> >last week, there seems to be no trace of animosity between Garak
and
> >Damar, and that doesn't seem to track given Damar's murder of
>
> We've also been given no indication of whether the other Cardassians
> are ready to follow Damar's lead in renouncing their old xenophobic,
> expansionist attitudes. Certainly, this would be a large and
unsignalled
> change for Garak, who was part and parcel of the old ways. I wonder
what
> will happen when, after the war, all the subject peoples of the old
> Cardassian empire want *out* *now*? If Damar fails to raise his hand
> against them, what will the old military elites do to him?
Actually...does anyone other than Dukat -know- that it was Damar who
shot Ziyal? I don't remember if Dukat ever told anyone or not...if
not, I could see how Dukat letting that information out at a critical
time could certainly...mmmm...make things warm for Damar...
Tom B.
Laurinda Chamberlin
>WARNING: While sailing along and "Tacking Into the Wind," I happened
>upon some DS9 spoilers.
>
>In brief: A bit obvious in a few spots, but definitely a solid outing.
>
[...]
>-- I do wonder about the logic of sending those five people on Kira's
>mission, though. Kira and Odo had necessary uses, and Garak has a lot
>of experience, but why the others, especially when Damar's face is so
>well-known throughout the Cardassian Union? [...]
>-- One wonders why exactly Damar had to kill Rosot outright. Couldn't
>he have shot to wound? The point would still have been made, and it's
>not as though the rebellion is overflowing with soldiers at this
>point... [...]
Well, the answer to these two is the same: realism is sacrificed to
symbolism. If Moore had been playing it straight, Damar, the most
wanted man in Dominion territory, would not have been along on this
mission. He is there only so he can be the one to shoot Rosot, the
apotheosis of the Old Bad Cardassia, and thereby, as Cardassia's
new hope <cough>, signal a fundamental change in direction for their
society. Rosot must also therefore die rather than just be clobbered
over the head.
>-- Wouldn't the Dominion have been better off taking Damar's family
>hostage rather than killing them? If that part was Weyoun's idea,
>chalk another tactical blunder up to the Vorta... [...]
Indeed. Taking them hostage might have paralyzed Damar with indecision;
killing them only inspires vengeance. Still, this error is in keeping
with the one to use Cardassian civilians as shields -- likely to inspire
outrage rather than demoralize the population.
>-- One sour note on the Kira/Damar/Garak material: as others mentioned
>last week, there seems to be no trace of animosity between Garak and
>Damar, and that doesn't seem to track given Damar's murder of Ziyal. [...]
We've also been given no indication of whether the other Cardassians
are ready to follow Damar's lead in renouncing their old xenophobic,
expansionist attitudes. Certainly, this would be a large and unsignalled
change for Garak, who was part and parcel of the old ways. I wonder what
will happen when, after the war, all the subject peoples of the old
Cardassian empire want *out* *now*? If Damar fails to raise his hand
against them, what will the old military elites do to him?
--
Laurinda She walked by herself, and
all places were alike to her.
Scott Parker
>WARNING: While sailing along and "Tacking Into the Wind," I happened
>upon some DS9 spoilers.
>
>In brief: A bit obvious in a few spots, but definitely a solid outing.
>
>======
>
>
>
>
>
>======
>-- One wonders why exactly Damar had to kill Rosot outright. Couldn't
>he have shot to wound? The point would still have been made, and it's
>not as though the rebellion is overflowing with soldiers at this
>point...
Well, if Damar had shot to wound it would have riled a lot of cops.
Anyone who's taught to shoot to stop a threat is trained to aim for
the center of mass. In a life-and-death situation, there's no time
for fancy target practise.
That said, there's no reason the scriptwriter(s) couldn't have had
Damar be off target and only wound, for the purpose of keeping the
other character alive and around. (Maybe he was wearing a red
(under)shirt?)
Scott
http://users.uniserve.com/~lparker/ (short stories & puzzles)
JTKirk
(David E. Sluss) wrote:
>tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) wrote:
>[snips of good stuff, which I generally agree with]
>
>>Other thoughts:
>>
>>-- No Ezri romance issues for a change. Whew!
>
>Word. And, though most won't agree, I can't say I missed the Winn
>storyline, either, since I haven't bought into a lot of her actions or
>characterization there. I wouldn't have minded a scene of Dukat as
>beggar, though...
>
Yes, THAT would have been interesting!
>[...]
>
>>-- I do wonder about the logic of sending those five people on Kira's
>>mission, though. Kira and Odo had necessary uses, and Garak has a lot
>>of experience, but why the others, especially when Damar's face is so
>>well-known throughout the Cardassian Union?
>
>Here's a bit of Trekkie Rationalization I posted elsewhere for this:
And here's what I commented on that:
I consider this last one the most convincing explanation. Aside
from Rusot (whom we haven't seen in many episodes prior to this),
we know for certain that all of them know how to fly a Jem'Hadar
ship...
>>-- One wonders why exactly Damar had to kill Rosot outright. Couldn't
>>he have shot to wound? The point would still have been made, and it's
>>not as though the rebellion is overflowing with soldiers at this
>>point...
>
>I'm not sure, were they still packing the Dominion rifles they took
>from the ship's crew, or had they retrieved their own from the storage
>locker? If it's the former, we've seen before that Dominion phasers
>appear to have only a "kill" setting.
>
>[...]
Those were definitely JH weapons, not the Cardassian rifles they
were carrying when they arrived.
--
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remove the "no_me_j." in front of the address when replying
ay...@my-dejanews.com
mum...@netcom.com (mumford) wrote:
> A while ago, David E. Sluss<sluss@no-square-canned-processed-
meat.dhp.com> begot:
[regarding Damar's role in the Dominion ship theft case]
> >
> Rush job or no, you don't send your leaders on a potential one-way
> mission. In fact, you don't send your leaders on *any* mission.
> The only person who was _absolutely_ needed for that plan was Odo.
>
Sure, if you are part of a well organized army. But if you are
a budding resistance rebellion group, then the leader is *always*
front and centre if he/she is to have any credibility at all.
>
> On a side note, can someone explain to me how big human-sized Odo can
> morph into a pair of handcuffs that Kira can carry?
>
The same way he always had: total and utter contempt for the
law of physics.
> --
> Glenn Lamb - mum...@netcom.com. Finger for my PGP Key.
> Email to me must have my address in either the To: or Cc: field. All
other
> mail will be bounced automatically as spam.
> PGPprint = E3 0F DE CC 94 72 D1 1A 2D 2E A9 08 6B A0 CD 82
>
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Dan Osman
ay...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <mumfordF...@netcom.com>,
> mum...@netcom.com (mumford) wrote:
> > A while ago, David E. Sluss<sluss@no-square-canned-processed-
> meat.dhp.com> begot:
>
> >
> > On a side note, can someone explain to me how big human-sized Odo can
> > morph into a pair of handcuffs that Kira can carry?
> >
>
> The same way he always had: total and utter contempt for the
> law of physics.
Someone wanna explain how I can morph a 1" cube of ice into a vapor that
spreads out across my room? Contempt for laws of physics, you say? I call
it density.
Dan
if you can read this, you've scrolled too far
mumford
And if that is indeed the case as far as Odo is concerned, then please
explain to me how he, when in human form, interacts with other beings
as if he had comparable mass... ie how can he throw a punch that has
any impact?
NoOneYouKnow
news:mumfordF...@netcom.com...
> A while ago, Dan Osman <dso...@students.wisc.edu> begot:
> >
> >
> >ay...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> >> In article <mumfordF...@netcom.com>,
> >> mum...@netcom.com (mumford) wrote:
> >> > A while ago, David E. Sluss<sluss@no-square-canned-processed-
> >> meat.dhp.com> begot:
> >>
> >> >
> >> > On a side note, can someone explain to me how big human-sized Odo can
> >> > morph into a pair of handcuffs that Kira can carry?
> >> >
> >>
> >> The same way he always had: total and utter contempt for the
> >> law of physics.
> >
> >
> >Someone wanna explain how I can morph a 1" cube of ice into a vapor that
> >spreads out across my room? Contempt for laws of physics, you say? I call
> >it density.
>
> And if that is indeed the case as far as Odo is concerned, then please
> explain to me how he, when in human form, interacts with other beings
> as if he had comparable mass... ie how can he throw a punch that has
> any impact?
Maybe he's hollow as a humanoid. To throw a solid punch, assuming the same
fist-velocity as a 'normal' person, he could temporarily shift more of his
mass to the arm and fist.
One figure I found for the amount of skin surface on a human is up to 15000
sq. in.
At 1/32 in. thickness, Odo would comprise a volume of < 500 cu. in., or <1/3
cu. ft., or a cube < 8 inches on a side.
AFAIK, we don't have any real info on what minerals he's made of or what his
mass is. By the sound of the clunk when the handcuffs fell to the floor, I'd
say it was << 10 pounds. But then, since he's a shapeshifter, he could
easily morph to cushion his fall, thus reducing the 'clunk'.
---JRE---
OfficialWeredragon
tcw...@netcom.com (Laurinda Chamberlin) wrote:
> We've also been given no indication of whether the other Cardassians
> are ready to follow Damar's lead in renouncing their old xenophobic,
> expansionist attitudes. Certainly, this would be a large and
unsignalled
> change for Garak, who was part and parcel of the old ways. I wonder
what
> will happen when, after the war, all the subject peoples of the old
> Cardassian empire want *out* *now*? If Damar fails to raise his hand
> against them, what will the old military elites do to him?
Actually, I think it would be odd if Garak *didn't* agree with Damar.
He *was* exiled for treason, after all, and we still don't know why, so
I wouldn't exactly call him just another member of the Cardassian Old
Guard. And even if he were, 7+ years of being exiled on a Bajorian
station would probably have taught him better. He clearly gets on well
with the people on the station, I can't imagine Bajorians buying from a
Cardassian otherwise. He's released Cardassian dissadents, seems to no
longer be comfortable with torturing people (at least, not people he
likes), and has fought with the Federation against his own people --
something most Cardassians would be reluctant to do, even knowing that
was the best way to stop the Dominion. And, his words to Kira after she
rips into Damar certainly suggest to me that he feels the next leader of
Cardassia needs to be strong enough to admit to the mistakes Cardassia
has made in the past.
There *is* one line in that wierd episode where everyone gets zapped
into Odo's memories that implys that Garak shares an anti-Bajorian
prejudice, but the overwhelming evidence suggests otherwise. Since the
rest of that particular episode was ill-thought-out and, well, not that
good, I think I'll chalk that one up to bad writing rather than genuine
character development. (I did like the line about the "Former
Cardassian Oppressor" name tag, though...)
On another note: if Kira and Sisko know Damar killed Ziyal, than
certainly Garak does. But I don't really find his behavior out of
character -- after all, his motto is, "Never let sediment get in the way
of your work." If he thinks that Damar is the best choice to lead
Cardassia, then I think he'd back Damar regardless of his personal
feelings towards the man. After all, duty to Cardassia is the most
important thing, right? I still would have liked some lines to that
effect, tho.
Bethany (always ready to talk about Garak)
> --
> Laurinda She walked by herself,
and
> all places were alike to
her.
>
--
Bethany
The Official Weredragon of ???
ay...@my-dejanews.com
Dan Osman <dso...@students.wisc.edu> wrote:
>
>
> ay...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > In article <mumfordF...@netcom.com>,
> > mum...@netcom.com (mumford) wrote:
> > > A while ago, David E. Sluss<sluss@no-square-canned-processed-
> > meat.dhp.com> begot:
> >
> > >
> > > On a side note, can someone explain to me how big human-sized Odo
can
> > > morph into a pair of handcuffs that Kira can carry?
> > >
> >
> > The same way he always had: total and utter contempt for the
> > law of physics.
>
> Someone wanna explain how I can morph a 1" cube of ice into a
> vapor that spreads out across my room? Contempt for laws of
> physics, you say? I call it density.
>
Oh please. Are you telling me Odo has the weight of a pair of
handcuffs?
This is an seven years old argument started when Odo morphed into
a bag of latinum that a Cardassian soldier can carry around in the
pilot episode (which is far heavier than the handcuffs). Some more
inventive ideas have been suggested, eg. Only part of Odo was
morphed into the handcuff, the rest was changed into an invisible
mist.
Doesn't matter which way you cut it, there is only one real world
answer and we all know what it is.
> Dan
>
> if you can read this, you've scrolled too far
>
>
Timo S Saloniemi
>Timothy W. Lynch wrote in message <7ho3it$6...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>...
>>-- Although I have my doubts about Bashir and O'Brien's plan, I do
>>like the fact that we're not seeing Bashir pull a medical miracle out
>>of some random body part.
>Agreed about that. I think the so-called "plan" is quite thin. Section 31
>should be smart enough to see through something that thinly veiled.
Who says they don't? Bashir might just be gambling here, trusting O'Brien
since he's out of all sensible, logical and reasonable alternatives.
And, based on what we will see in the next episode (no spoilers here),
it will remain ambiguous whether S31 did realize this was all a sham
or not.
>>-- Um ... Worf? If you're talking about opposing Gowron, doing it
>>publicly at Quark's is probably not the best of ideas...
>In human society, yes. In Klingon society, I would think it would be
>perfectly appropriate, especially in this instance. Worf said it best when
>he spoke about how the others in the room would not say what he said,
>regarding Gowrons leadership. Let's face it: the other generals in the room
>were probably hoping this would happen, although they probably expected it
>from Martok.
This is probably similar to Quark counting his day's profits in plain
sight, without locking his doors - it's what Ferengi honor requires.
See how much I earned? Do come and dare try to take it from me!
Worf wasn't exactly planning to do something dishonorable, like
Mollari and Vir planning to assassinate Carthagia - he was referring
to a honorable Klingon thing, challenging an incompetent superior.
Had somebody in the crowd been ready to fight for Gowron there and
then, so be it. But no honorable Klingon would have chastised Worf for
his words, or used them against him by squealing to Gowron himself.
Timo Saloniemi
Reverend Information Arcade Workstation
"R. John Madsen" <rj...@nwtinc.com> wrote:
> > -- One wonders why exactly Damar had to kill Rosot outright.
> >Couldn't
> > he have shot to wound? The point would still have been made, and
> >it's
> > not as though the rebellion is overflowing with soldiers at this
> > point...
>
> Damar. He
> correctly realized that he had to make a choice between the Kira-style
> resistance,
> with a future of cooperation amongst all of the Alpha quadrant races
> (perhaps
> without the Breen), OR the Cardassians-only club that Rusot advocated.
>
> It was a tough choice to make, and I was glad to see the writers make
> the hard
> choice. As Damar stated - - his (Rusot's) Cardassia is dead.
Whatever the merits of the choice, it was hardly a hard
choice for the writers to make. Damar has slowly become
a good guy, and the choice he made was clearly
the good guy decision.
Laurinda Chamberlin
>In article <tcwwbhFB...@netcom.com>,
> tcw...@netcom.com (Laurinda Chamberlin) wrote:
>> We've also been given no indication of whether the other Cardassians
>> are ready to follow Damar's lead in renouncing their old xenophobic,
>> expansionist attitudes. Certainly, this would be a large and
>unsignalled
>> change for Garak, who was part and parcel of the old ways. I wonder
>what
>> will happen when, after the war, all the subject peoples of the old
>> Cardassian empire want *out* *now*? If Damar fails to raise his hand
>> against them, what will the old military elites do to him?
>Actually, I think it would be odd if Garak *didn't* agree with Damar.
>He *was* exiled for treason, after all, and we still don't know why, so
>I wouldn't exactly call him just another member of the Cardassian Old
>Guard.
Treason can be many things. Tain claimed Garak betrayed him, and that
might indicate Garak rebelled against his father's wicked ways, but
it just as easily might have been something else. The thing is, as
one of Tain's closest advisers, he was up to his neck in a totalitarian
system.
>And even if he were, 7+ years of being exiled on a Bajorian
>station would probably have taught him better.
One would like to think so, but people can live for years among those
of another ethnic group and still hate them. I'd say the best evidence
that he is not an unwavering racist is that he never seemed to hold
Ziyal's mixed blood against her.
>He clearly gets on well
>with the people on the station, I can't imagine Bajorians buying from a
>Cardassian otherwise. He's released Cardassian dissadents, seems to no
>longer be comfortable with torturing people (at least, not people he
>likes), and has fought with the Federation against his own people --
>something most Cardassians would be reluctant to do, even knowing that
>was the best way to stop the Dominion.
Garak gets along well with individuals on the station, but still expends
his acid wit at the expense of groups (I'd say the only Klingon he can
stand is Martok, and as for Romulans...). We've heard him espouse only
hardline political views.
>And, his words to Kira after she
>rips into Damar certainly suggest to me that he feels the next leader of
>Cardassia needs to be strong enough to admit to the mistakes Cardassia
>has made in the past.
But this last is the latter-day material I'm questioning.
>There *is* one line in that wierd episode where everyone gets zapped
>into Odo's memories that implys that Garak shares an anti-Bajorian
>prejudice, but the overwhelming evidence suggests otherwise. Since the
>rest of that particular episode was ill-thought-out and, well, not that
>good, I think I'll chalk that one up to bad writing rather than genuine
>character development. (I did like the line about the "Former
>Cardassian Oppressor" name tag, though...)
Although the writing cast him as a rather generic bigot, it was very much
in line with typical smug Cardassian attitudes, so I didn't think it
was actually out of character.
>[...] If he thinks that Damar is the best choice to lead
>Cardassia, then I think he'd back Damar regardless of his personal
>feelings towards the man. After all, duty to Cardassia is the most
>important thing, right? I still would have liked some lines to that
>effect, tho.
That's the real problem for me -- whatever he thinks about either topic
is completely shut off from us.
Dave Roy
Bagwell" <tnba...@earthlink.net> saying:
>Actually...does anyone other than Dukat -know- that it was Damar who
>shot Ziyal? I don't remember if Dukat ever told anyone or not...if
>not, I could see how Dukat letting that information out at a critical
>time could certainly...mmmm...make things warm for Damar...
I'm pretty sure that Kira mentioned it when she was assigned to this
mission.
Dave Roy
Charles C. Fu
> On a side note, can someone explain to me how big human-sized Odo
> can morph into a pair of handcuffs that Kira can carry?
Robert Wolfe has said that Changelings exist partially in subspace and
shift mass in and out of it. Ron Moore has said "we've been careful
not to address this issue directly since it's a good question without
a really good answer."
-ccwf
Matt Frisch
scribed into the ether:
How do the heisenberg compensators work?
Quite well, thank you.