[DS9] Lynch's Spoiler Review: "The Changing Face of Evil"

[David Spiro]

Lynch wrote:

>Two events bracketing the stories on the station added substantially to
>the show, however. One of them was the Breen's abrupt attack on
>Starfleet Headquarters itself. Although it's unclear how severe the
>actual damage was, Weyoun is absolutely right in this case: the
>symbolic, propaganda effect is bound to be severe. (It may well have
>had that effect on the viewer; I know I felt a bit of a pang seeing the
>Golden Gate Bridge in ruins.) Sisko and Martok's dialogue after the
>attack didn't do much for me ("the Breen can't be unstoppable,
>everyone has to have a weakness, blah blah blah" pretty much sums it
>up), but the event itself was interesting.

I think "interesting" is not the word I would use. This is, I belive, the
first time in ANY of ST's myriad of creations, that an actual attack on
Earth by an invading force has occurred. (The probe from ST IV doesn't
count!) The idea htat Earht itself is now vulnerable was actually for me,
quite satisfying. It brought a shade more realty to the ST universe. It is
about time really, that soemthing like htis has happened.

--
David Spiro EMT-P

"Will you still have a song to sing when the Razor Boy comes and takes your
fancy things away."

Steely Dan

Liver transplant - 8/1/97
RECYCLE YOURSELF! BE AN ORGAN DONOR!

[ray...@concentric.net]

Or maybe the Cardies are already in the loop. Need good intel if you are going to
win. If the Founders don't suspect every Cardie from this point forward they will
be in bigger trouble that they already have themselves in for letting the lifeboats
escape the battle.

DEBernardo wrote:

> >His plain-spoken call to
> >"Resist. Resist today. Resist tomorrow. Resist until the last
> >Dominion soldier has been driven from our soil!" was actually worth a
> >cheer or two.
>
> Yeah, but how effective was it? Weyoun and the Founder are standing there
> listening to Damar urge "every Cardassian to rise up," and who are standing
> right behind the Vorta and the Founder? Two Cardassian soldiers, doing nothing
> of the kind. In fact, they aren't even listening to Damar, their heads are
> glued to their terminals. I was hoping they'd turn and drop Weyoun like a rock
> (at least, before the Founder and/or any Jem'Hadar standing nearby clobbered
> them...).

[Timothy W. Lynch]

WARNING: DS9 may discuss "The Changing Face of Evil," but the
face of spoilers never changes, and it lies ahead.

In brief: A few slow moments, but a lot of epic moments and turning
points. Definitely worth the time.

======
Written by: Ira Steven Behr & Hans Beimler
Directed by: Mike Vejar
Brief summary: As the new Dominion-Breen alliance strikes hard
blows at the Federation, Dukat's plan for Winn is revealed, and
Damar makes a fateful decision.
======

No matter what one thinks of "The Changing Face of Evil," I don't
think anyone can get away with saying its events were
inconsequential. In a single episode, we get to see major religious
goings-on on Bajor with Winn and Dukat, huge political goings-on
within the Dominion, and a battle with some fairly decisive
consequences. You may say that the events in question are moving
too fast or that they're ill-chosen (for the most part, I wouldn't), but I
don't see any way for people to look upon all of this as meaningless.

As a place to start, let's take the material I felt most uncomfortable
with last time around, namely the temptation and fall of Kai Winn.
While I still feel as though things moved too fast to be really
convincing last week, a week's reflection and the further treatment of
Winn this time around has made me much more comfortable with
Winn's situation. Despite her bold (and way over-the-top) speech at
the end of "Strange Bedfellows," Winn is not simply a jealous power-
mad leader; both of those traits are in evidence, but she's clearly got
more than a few misgivings about where her choices are taking her.
Every further step down her newly-chosen path is an effort, and the
only reason she keeps taking them is her faith in hew new-found
confidant and advisor, "Anjohl."

This episode brings back the Dukat I was worried I'd lost after
"Strange Bedfellows"; while "Anjohl" is becoming more and more
Dukat-like in his mannerisms, he has once again realized that he can
be at his most manipulative when he labors behind the scenes. A
quick appeal to Winn's vanity here, a slight suggestion about how
close she's coming to real power there, and every new step is
sweetened just enough to let her walk it. Early in the show, it was
using the most grim book from the Bajoran religious archives, the
Kosst Amojin; by the end of the show, Winn has been goaded by
Dukat and by random chance into killing Solbor, one of her longest-
serving aides, in cold blood. Marc Alaimo is playing this new
serpent-in-the-garden role to the hilt, and when given a chance it's
working like a charm.

This plot's climactic scene, clearly, comes when Solbor figures out
the truth and exposes Dukat's true identity to Winn. There are a few
small questions lurking in my mind here and there (such as how
Solbor got any of Dukat's DNA in the first place, and even more
particularly why Dukat would bother taking the name of a dead man
rather than simply inventing a past out of whole cloth), but it was
inevitable that Dukat would be found out eventually, and Solbor was a
logical choice of person to do so, as he's spent the most time with
Dukat out of anyone except Winn herself. (James Otis also gets a
*great* speech out of it.) Winn's reaction is equally sensible: sheer,
unadulterated shock. As Solbor's accusations get ever more pointed,
her eyes widen, her face gets paler ... she even covers her mouth with
her hand for a moment, something which the ever-so-composed Winn
would never do ordinarily. Although she ends up killing Solbor in a
moment of panic, it's clear that all is not well between these two
former lovers. I'm quite interested to see what happens now that
they've deciphered the book and are ready to free the Pagh Wraiths.
(As an aside, however, the direction of Solbor's actual murder seemed
a bit off. The overall sense of the scene was fine, but something
about Winn's approach, a cut to the knife, and a cut back to Solbor
screaming didn't work this time around.)

Meanwhile, back on the station, the trend of the last several shows
have continued: the villains of the piece are far more compelling
viewing than the heroes. (That's true in a lot of shows; as another
genre example, think of virtually any Londo/Morden scene in B5 as
opposed to a Sheridan/Delenn conversation. For virtually any pairing,
the former scene is probably more memorable.) In particular, most of
the scenes on board DS9 itself this week seem to be doing little more
than marking time. Although we no longer have endless scenes of
Worf and Ezri bickering, we instead get Bashir and O'Brien playing
with their toys (er ... their Alamo model) while Ezri wonders if her
feelings for Bashir are real. Sisko and Kasidy have a bit of a spat
over her cargo runs into dangerous territory, but Sisko eventually
admits he's wrong and lets her go (just in time to get a dangerous
mission of his own, naturally). None of this was particularly bad, but
there was no real "spark" to any of it; even Sisko and Kasidy, who
have done so well for themselves in the past few weeks, felt as though
they were treading well-rehearsed territory rather than actually having
a serious fight.

Two events bracketing the stories on the station added substantially to
the show, however. One of them was the Breen's abrupt attack on
Starfleet Headquarters itself. Although it's unclear how severe the
actual damage was, Weyoun is absolutely right in this case: the
symbolic, propaganda effect is bound to be severe. (It may well have
had that effect on the viewer; I know I felt a bit of a pang seeing the
Golden Gate Bridge in ruins.) Sisko and Martok's dialogue after the
attack didn't do much for me ("the Breen can't be unstoppable,
everyone has to have a weakness, blah blah blah" pretty much sums it
up), but the event itself was interesting.

Far more interesting, however, was the Breen counterattack on
Chintaka, a Cardassian system that's been in Federation hands ever
since "Tears of the Prophets" last season. Yet again, the tide seems to
be turning against the Federation, and yet again there's a major battle
in the offing. This time, however, the outcome is different: not only
is everyone somewhat demoralized, but the Defiant, a ship we've seen
in action (both as pummeler and pummelee) for five years, is
destroyed in a quick and decisive attack by the Breen.

There are no quick escapes this time. No sacrifices for a greater goal,
a la "turning death into a fighting chance to live" in "Star Trek III".
No alternate universes or duplicated ships a la "Yesterday's
Enterprise" or VOY's "Deadlock". This time, the one true Defiant
goes into battle, and doesn't come out. It's not even close; they get
off one good shot, then find their second one doesn't take. A Breen
weapon drains their power dry, and they barely manage to get to the
escape pods before the entire ship goes <boom>.

Admittedly, I was spoiled a few days in advance about the destruction
of the Defiant thanks to some unprotected spoilers (otherwise
translated as "blithering idiots") online, but in this case I don't think it
particularly detracted from the power of the scene. Even earlier, when
we got a much longer-than-usual "prepare for departure" scene, I
think I would have wondered if we were lingering on the preparations
because we'd never see them again. The direction there, and the
extended sequence of head shots right before the Defiant headed into
battle, suggested pretty well that this wasn't going to be a Standard
Trek Battle [TM] -- and as it happens, it wasn't. Even the fact that the
escape pods were allowed to escape (by Founder order, which
probably wasn't very bright) wasn't likely to help Sisko's mood; he's
just lost his ship, and it's clear that the Federation is currently
outgunned.

Naturally, then, that means it's time for a ray of hope to shine through
from another quarter. We see exactly that, with the ray in question
named Legate Damar. Damar may not have had quite the dramatic
tour de force this time around that he did last week, but almost
everything about this plot seemed pretty solid.

One does have to suspend disbelief just enough, though, to assume
that Damar's quarters aren't bugged, or at least that Damar knows
how to beat the surveillance. After all, when Gul Rosot comes in and
the two talk of their plans for sedition, they're being pretty brazen.
Still, as Damar says, overconfidence has always been a hallmark of
the Weyouns, as has not seeing the enemy standing right in front of
you. Given how distracted the Founders are and how much emphasis
the Dominion must be placing on the Breen and the war, I can believe
that Damar's defiance would be able to slip through the cracks for a
short time, and that's about all that was needed here.

In any case, we see Damar getting his confidence back gradually over
the course of the episode, beginning with his guarded observation to
the Breen that they are now the fair-helmeted boys of the Dominion
much as the Cardassians used to be, and moving up to his official
break with the Dominion and a call for open resistance.

One of the best scenes here, not surprisingly, involved Damar and
Weyoun. Weyoun notices Damar's newly-regained confidence fairly
quickly (though he first notices the lack of a bottle in Damar's hand),
but as is so typical of Weyoun jumps to the wrong conclusion. He
believes that Damar's turnaround has come because of the successful
Dominion assault on the Federation, not because of Damar's own
plans for rebellion -- and half a dozen episodes ago, he might have
been right. This time, though, Damar plays along with Weyoun, as
mellow as can be, knowing that before long Weyoun will be realizing
and regretting his assumptions. Entertaining stuff here.

Interesting in a different sense is Damar's initial conversation with Gul
Rosot. While the overall sense of it -- a realization that Cardassia is
"occupied territory," and that Cardassians are no longer masters of
their own fate -- is fine, the interesting part is Damar's quietly stated
insistence that "we will be fighting to win back our homes and our
freedom, and that will make us even stronger." True sentiments?
Undoubtedly -- but they're sentiments we could have heard from any
Bajoran, particularly Kira, less than a decade earlier. The roles have
shifted, but the beliefs are constant -- and that's always a fun
parallelism to see. (Given that next week it appears we'll have Damar
and Kira meet, I suspect that parallel was made very intentionally.)

Lastly, there's Damar's speech to Cardassia which gets everyone in a
tizzy. I've heard it said many times that Damar doesn't have the same
personal charisma about him that Dukat does, and I think that's true.
In some ways, however, that makes this speech even more
interesting. It's natural when a born speechmaker says something
stirring and exhorts you to follow him or her -- one even expects it.
When someone who usually functions in a much more workmanlike
manner makes an earnest plea, however, it's so out of the ordinary
that you might be more likely to take notice. His plain-spoken call to

"Resist. Resist today. Resist tomorrow. Resist until the last
Dominion soldier has been driven from our soil!" was actually worth a
cheer or two.

So, as matters stand now: things are looking bad for the Federation
(and Sisko personally) in a lot of respects, Bajor is about to undergo a
major religious crisis, and the Dominion is beset with internal strife.
Just another day at the office. :-) Seriously, I hope things can keep
moving equally well over the next few weeks. If the regulars can get
more worthwhile material (particularly O'Brien, Bashir, and Odo), I'll
be happier still.

Other thoughts:

-- A few other problems with Solbor's discovery. First, he was less
than brilliant in running in and confronting them on his own rather
than talking to a Vedek or two, though that's plausible given his
character. Second, I find it hard to believe that he "analyzed the
DNA" of Dukat completely on his own; *someone* should have
knowledge that lives on past Solbor's death.

-- It seems that whenever anyone wants to blow up a Defiant-class
ship, they give it to Mike Vejar. He also directed last season's
"Valiant," which had a scene of equal carnage.

-- If anyone thought John Vickery (Gul Rosot) sounded familiar,
they're probably right: although he showed up on TNG's "Night
Terrors" long ago, he's probably better remembered as Neroon and as
"Mr. Wells" on B5. Powerful voice, that one. (Vejar has directed
him as Neroon, too.)

-- Yet *another* element of contrived mystery for the Breen: this
time, it turns out they don't actually need those refrigeration suits. Let
me guess: they're really angelic beings of light? Come on, folks...

-- Actually, I'd love to see that the Breen look totally plebeian under
their suits; I'm hoping to see one get unmasked and revealed as, oh,
George Takei annoyed at having missed out on "Trials and Tribble-
ations." :-)

-- Martok: "Every species has its weakness. They're no exception."
Lisa: "S'mores. They can't get enough of 'em." :-)

-- Since when does Weyoun call Thot Gor "General"?

-- The shot of the dying Defiant was absolutely beautiful, particularly
the way we cut away from it on one face and then saw the other
swivel into view.

-- I happened to be on set one afternoon during the filming of "When
It Rains..." (next week's show). While there, I saw a substantial
Bajoran cavern set, which reminded me a lot of where Sisko found
B'Hala. Given the events of this week, I'd be willing to bet that
someone's making a little excursion to the fire-caves...

-- On the same visit, I saw the Defiant bridge set, looking awfully
banged-up. I figured that the set hadn't been cleaned up yet after a
battle scene; I was right, but hadn't realized that the battle in question
was the death of the Defiant. Eek. (On the other hand, this means I
may have been one of the last few people to sit in Sisko's chair, and
that's just cool. :-) )

-- Having the first target of the Cardassian counteroffensive be the
cloning facilities where Weyouns are made just strikes me as delicious
plotting on Damar's part.

That should pretty much wrap that up. As we head into the
homestretch, we've had five straight episodes that have all been fairly
good -- not all stellar, mind you, but all quite decent. Here's hoping
for similar luck on the last five!

Summing up:

Writing: Dull station antics, but good work with just about everything
else.
Directing: Solbor's death was a bit off; the rest was gripping, as is
common with Vejar.
Acting: No complaints.

OVERALL: 9. Let's keep it up...

NEXT WEEK:

Kira finds herself training the unlikeliest of recruits.

Tim Lynch (Harvard-Westlake School, Science Dept.)
tly...@alumni.caltech.edu <*>
"Instead of the invaders, we have become the invaded. Our *allies*
have conquered us without firing a single shot. Well ... no longer."
-- Damar
--
Copyright 1999, Timothy W. Lynch. All rights reserved, but feel free to ask...
This article is explicitly prohibited from being used in any off-net
compilation without due attribution and *express written consent of the
author*. Walnut Creek and other CD-ROM distributors, take note.

[DEBernardo]

>His plain-spoken call to
>"Resist. Resist today. Resist tomorrow. Resist until the last
>Dominion soldier has been driven from our soil!" was actually worth a
>cheer or two.

Yeah, but how effective was it? Weyoun and the Founder are standing there

[Prolix68]

In article <19990502214416...@ng-da1.aol.com>,
deber...@aol.comnospam (DEBernardo) writes:

>Yeah, but how effective was it? Weyoun and the
> Founder are standing there listening to Damar urge
> "every Cardassian to rise up," and who are standing
> right behind the Vorta and the Founder? Two
> Cardassian soldiers, doing nothing of the kind.
> In fact, they aren't even listening to Damar, their heads
> are glued to their terminals.

(1) How does keeping one's visual attention on a terminal
impair one from *listening*? It's not like they had earpieces
in blocking nearby air vibrations.

(2) Can you *really* blame them for not trying anything?
I'd rather live out my shift, *then* take up arms against
my occupiers. Can't do much good if I'm lying dead in
the middle of the Bridge.

----------------------------------------
"I think... therefore you are."

[Jason Quick]

Timothy W. Lynch wrote

> This plot's climactic scene, clearly, comes when Solbor figures out
> the truth and exposes Dukat's true identity to Winn. There are a few
> small questions lurking in my mind here and there (such as how
> Solbor got any of Dukat's DNA in the first place,

Remember, Dukat whacked him but good - so hard that when he
walked into Winn's quarters, he was shaking his hand about, as if
in pain. Gotta think that'd leave some residue. Or, alternately, if
Solbor spent so much time around "Anjohl," picking up a strand
of his hair or some such thing isn't farfetched at all.

>and even more
> particularly why Dukat would bother taking the name of a dead man
> rather than simply inventing a past out of whole cloth),

Sheer laziness? Wasn't Dukat responsible for the real Anjohl's
death in a camp during the occupation of Bajor? Perhaps he was
employing a bit of warped irony there.

My $0.02 - this was IMO the best so far in the arc, and one
of the better all-round episodes, though some bits (like the Alamo
business) did strike me as a little less than subtle. I particularly
enjoyed all the screen time that Winn got - Louise Fletcher is
really in her element with this character, and to watch her descend
into the abyss was almost painful, even though I generally have
very little sympathy for Kai Winn. Her desire for power and
recognition is so intense, so overwhelming that she can't turn back
even after she finds out that Anjohl is really Gul Damar, who
seems to be held in the same regard by Bajorans as we hold,
say, Eichmann or Goebbels. That's pretty scary.

Jason
Remove one dot (guess which?) to reply

[TedJ...@mindspring.com]

Timothy W. Lynch wrote in message <7gisto$g...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>...

>WARNING: DS9 may discuss "The Changing Face of Evil," but the
>face of spoilers never changes, and it lies ahead.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

>There are a few small questions lurking in my mind here and there
>(such as how Solbor got any of Dukat's DNA in the first place, and
>even more particularly why Dukat would bother taking the name of
>a dead man rather than simply inventing a past out of whole cloth)

It may be easier to set up a fake identity using a real dead Bajoran
than just making one up. The Bajoran equivalent of a birth certificate,
school transcripts, etc. would be in databases for the real Anjohl;
Dukat can order copies, get a replacement for a supposedly lost ID
card, or whatever.

>Although we no longer have endless scenes of
>Worf and Ezri bickering, we instead get Bashir and O'Brien playing
>with their toys (er ... their Alamo model)

I'm wondering if that's leading to something. Maybe there will be a
final siege of the station, where they're badly outnumbered, sure to
lose, just buying time for the Federation: a battle analogous to the
Alamo. And O'Brien is obsessed with winning the Alamo battle;
maybe his eventual solution for that will lead to an analogous way
of winning the DS9 battle.

>-- Yet *another* element of contrived mystery for the Breen: this
>time, it turns out they don't actually need those refrigeration suits. Let
>me guess: they're really angelic beings of light? Come on, folks...

I'm guessing this will tie in to some weakness of the Breen. They didn't
say the Breen didn't NEED the suits, just that the suits aren't to duplicate
their home planet. Maybe they need to be refrigerated for some other
reason (to keep from spoiling?), and this can be turned against them.
On the other hand, perhaps the refrigeration gear is a blind, an excuse
to wear suits to conceal a different weakness; under those suits, they're
robots, and vulnerable to jamming, or they're an offshoot of some other
species, and vulnerable to that species' biological weapons.

[Iris L. Chang]

DEBernardo (deber...@aol.comnospam) wrote:
: Yeah, but how effective was it? Weyoun and the Founder are standing there

: listening to Damar urge "every Cardassian to rise up," and who are standing
: right behind the Vorta and the Founder? Two Cardassian soldiers, doing nothing
: of the kind. In fact, they aren't even listening to Damar, their heads are

: glued to their terminals. I was hoping they'd turn and drop Weyoun like a rock

Actually, I thought that was a rather nice scene. Of course, the
Cardassian bridge techs can't react positively in any way, but we can't
know what they're thinking. From Weyoun's subtle change of expression
as he turned his head slightly toward them, I imagined he must be
wondering about that too.

Pau,
Ryan Chang

[Shawn Hill]

In rec.arts.startrek.current Timothy W. Lynch <tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu> wrote:

: This plot's climactic scene, clearly, comes when Solbor figures out

: the truth and exposes Dukat's true identity to Winn. There are a few
: small questions lurking in my mind here and there (such as how
: Solbor got any of Dukat's DNA in the first place, and even more
: particularly why Dukat would bother taking the name of a dead man
: rather than simply inventing a past out of whole cloth), but it was

Solbor probably took a dna sample from his own face where Dukat hit
him.

: (As an aside, however, the direction of Solbor's actual murder seemed

: a bit off. The overall sense of the scene was fine, but something
: about Winn's approach, a cut to the knife, and a cut back to Solbor
: screaming didn't work this time around.)

Could have been more exciting, and I would have preferred the Kai to see
Dukat do it than doing it herself. I still think there's hope for Winn;
but, maybe she'll die nobly. Let's see, so far they're setting up Winn,
Dukat, Sisko, Weyoun, Kassidy and maybe Damar to die horribly. I just want
to see that Founder targ-spawn flake to dust.

: viewing than the heroes. (That's true in a lot of shows; as another

: genre example, think of virtually any Londo/Morden scene in B5 as
: opposed to a Sheridan/Delenn conversation. For virtually any pairing,
: the former scene is probably more memorable.) In particular, most of

Sheridan/delenn scenes could be great ... WHEN they had something to talk
about.

: mission of his own, naturally). None of this was particularly bad, but

: there was no real "spark" to any of it; even Sisko and Kasidy, who
: have done so well for themselves in the past few weeks, felt as though
: they were treading well-rehearsed territory rather than actually having
: a serious fight.

But isn't that the convincing part of it? They know each other so well,
these little skirmishes ARE well-rehearsed at this point.

You didn't highlight the most amazing scene to me in the ep, which was the
multiplicity of conversations going on as everyone boarded and revved up
the defiant. From Kira's "you always say that" to Worf's "he plays with
toys" to Sisko's "take her out" (and the nifty decoupling from the
station, very nimble maneuvering), that was a classic bit of multi-layered
dialogue, a payoff for longterm viewers familiar with years of
interpersonal relationships.

: When someone who usually functions in a much more workmanlike

: manner makes an earnest plea, however, it's so out of the ordinary
: that you might be more likely to take notice. His plain-spoken call to
: "Resist. Resist today. Resist tomorrow. Resist until the last
: Dominion soldier has been driven from our soil!" was actually worth a
: cheer or two.

totally agree with you on all your damar observations. Go Casey Biggs!

: Just another day at the office. :-) Seriously, I hope things can keep

: moving equally well over the next few weeks. If the regulars can get
: more worthwhile material (particularly O'Brien, Bashir, and Odo), I'll
: be happier still.

I feel like all those characters have been served if not overserved in the
past two seasons. I've been waiting for another Kira ep, which looks like
what we'll get next week. I'd like to see keiko again (I just rewatched
"the Assignment," which I loved), and I want to see Odo destroy that
founder-demoness.

: -- If anyone thought John Vickery (Gul Rosot) sounded familiar,

: they're probably right: although he showed up on TNG's "Night
: Terrors" long ago, he's probably better remembered as Neroon and as
: "Mr. Wells" on B5. Powerful voice, that one. (Vejar has directed
: him as Neroon, too.)

and neroon would be ... another vorta? My mind is blanking.

Shawn

[Taki Kogoma]

In <7giuc6$p...@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> on rec.arts.startrek.current,
"David Spiro" <bage...@ix.netcom.com> allegedly proclaimed:
>[...] This is, I belive, the

>first time in ANY of ST's myriad of creations, that an actual attack on
>Earth by an invading force has occurred. (The probe from ST IV doesn't

>count!) [...]

4 words:

"Star Trek: First Contact"

--
Capt. Gym Z. Quirk -- quirk @ swcp.com | "I'll get a life when someone
(Known to some as Taki Kogoma) | demonstrates that it would be
Retired 'Secret Master of | superior to what I have now."
rec.arts.startrek' | -- Gym Quirk

[PM Bowles]

On 3 May 1999, Shawn Hill wrote:

> In rec.arts.startrek.current Timothy W. Lynch <tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu> wrote:
>

> : This plot's climactic scene, clearly, comes when Solbor figures out

> : the truth and exposes Dukat's true identity to Winn. There are a few
> : small questions lurking in my mind here and there (such as how
> : Solbor got any of Dukat's DNA in the first place, and even more
> : particularly why Dukat would bother taking the name of a dead man
> : rather than simply inventing a past out of whole cloth), but it was
>

> Solbor probably took a dna sample from his own face where Dukat hit
> him.
>

> : (As an aside, however, the direction of Solbor's actual murder seemed

> : a bit off. The overall sense of the scene was fine, but something
> : about Winn's approach, a cut to the knife, and a cut back to Solbor
> : screaming didn't work this time around.)
>

> Could have been more exciting, and I would have preferred the Kai to see
> Dukat do it than doing it herself. I still think there's hope for Winn;
> but, maybe she'll die nobly. Let's see, so far they're setting up Winn,
> Dukat, Sisko, Weyoun, Kassidy and maybe Damar to die horribly.

What about Rosot? I imagine he'll be in the remaining episodes, at least
until someone kills him.

> and neroon would be ... another vorta? My mind is blanking.

A Minbari from B5, actually. He also turned against his people's
increasingly oppressive military regime (dying in the process - see
Rosot comments above).

Philip Bowles

[The Irrepressible Q]

DEBernardo wrote:

> >His plain-spoken call to
> >"Resist. Resist today. Resist tomorrow. Resist until the last
> >Dominion soldier has been driven from our soil!" was actually worth a
> >cheer or two.
>

> Yeah, but how effective was it? Weyoun and the Founder are standing there
> listening to Damar urge "every Cardassian to rise up," and who are standing
> right behind the Vorta and the Founder? Two Cardassian soldiers, doing nothing
> of the kind. In fact, they aren't even listening to Damar, their heads are
> glued to their terminals. I was hoping they'd turn and drop Weyoun like a rock

> (at least, before the Founder and/or any Jem'Hadar standing nearby clobbered
> them...).

I think actually it will be very effective. It's going to take a little time. If
the rest of the homeworld can see Damar and his rebels win a few victories (like he
said) they will definitely take to their own armed resistance in the streets of
Cardassia, doing whatever's in their power to slow the Dominion down. Certainly
more of the military will begin to defect once they see this as well. Though I was
personally hoping the two in the command center would shoot the Founder herself, I
can understand why they would not act then and there. They could after all be more
effective by pretending to be loyal while in their hearts be planning for action.
Of course they could as you suggest simply be cowards unwilling to risk their own
lives so close to the heads of the war. What I'm wondering is when the tide turns
again, will the Dominion while on the retreat decimate Cardassia Prime out of
revenge for Damar's betrayal.

[Lee Ann Rucker]

In article <7gisto$g...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, tly...@alumni.caltech.edu wrote:

>-- Yet *another* element of contrived mystery for the Breen: this
>time, it turns out they don't actually need those refrigeration suits. Let
>me guess: they're really angelic beings of light? Come on, folks...

My bet is it has something to do with the energy sapping device

--
Working at Apple for Javasoft
lru...@aruba.apple.com
Also at (but not very often) leeann...@eng.sun.com

[David B.]

DEBernardo wrote:

> >His plain-spoken call to
> >"Resist. Resist today. Resist tomorrow. Resist until the last
> >Dominion soldier has been driven from our soil!" was actually worth a
> >cheer or two.
>

> Yeah, but how effective was it? Weyoun and the Founder are standing there
> listening to Damar urge "every Cardassian to rise up," and who are standing
> right behind the Vorta and the Founder? Two Cardassian soldiers, doing nothing
> of the kind. In fact, they aren't even listening to Damar, their heads are
> glued to their terminals. I was hoping they'd turn and drop Weyoun like a rock
> (at least, before the Founder and/or any Jem'Hadar standing nearby clobbered
> them...).

Maybe those two like the Dominion...

[Diane Fitzsimmons]

Timothy W. Lynch wrote:
>
>> -- Yet *another* element of contrived mystery for the Breen: this
> time, it turns out they don't actually need those refrigeration suits. Let
> me guess: they're really angelic beings of light? Come on, folks...
>
> -- Actually, I'd love to see that the Breen look totally plebeian under
> their suits; I'm hoping to see one get unmasked and revealed as, oh,
> George Takei annoyed at having missed out on "Trials and Tribble-
> ations." :-)
>

My husband and I really pondered over Weyoun's claim, because in an
episode of Voyager, the crew was put in a spaceship zoo that had
habitats for each of the species aboard. The Breen area was a desolate
iceland. Were the alien zookeepers fooled by the refrigeration suits?
Or is Weyoun's info wrong?

Diane

[Matt Frisch]

On 3 May 1999 01:08:08 GMT, tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch)
scribed into the ether:

>One of the best scenes here, not surprisingly, involved Damar and
>Weyoun. Weyoun notices Damar's newly-regained confidence fairly
>quickly (though he first notices the lack of a bottle in Damar's hand),
>but as is so typical of Weyoun jumps to the wrong conclusion. He
>believes that Damar's turnaround has come because of the successful
>Dominion assault on the Federation, not because of Damar's own
>plans for rebellion -- and half a dozen episodes ago, he might have
>been right. This time, though, Damar plays along with Weyoun, as
>mellow as can be, knowing that before long Weyoun will be realizing
>and regretting his assumptions. Entertaining stuff here.

Paraphrased from one of the "War World" anthology books:

Weyoun is a perfect specimen of his breed, but with a crucial
failing...that which he does not himself possess, he cannot imagine in
another.

[David E. Sluss]

[wholesale snippage]

"Timothy W. Lynch" <tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu> wrote:

> There are a few small questions lurking in my mind here and there
> (such as how Solbor got any of Dukat's DNA in the first place,

I hate to Trekkie Rationalize, but I got the impression that Dukat left
DNA when he punched Solbor. Maybe Solbor baited him deliberately, for
that very purpose? If not, then, based on various Fun With DNA episodes,
like "Unnatural Selection," I think it is, where Pulaski is de-aged thanks
to the DNA in a single hair follicle, it wouldn't be hard for Solbor to
get a sample.

> Admittedly, I was spoiled a few days in advance about the destruction
> of the Defiant thanks to some unprotected spoilers (otherwise
> translated as "blithering idiots") online, but in this case I don't think it
> particularly detracted from the power of the scene.

Hmmm. I don't know. That scene didn't work for me, and I just can't
figure out why....

> One does have to suspend disbelief just enough, though, to assume
> that Damar's quarters aren't bugged, or at least that Damar knows
> how to beat the surveillance. After all, when Gul Rosot comes in and
> the two talk of their plans for sedition, they're being pretty brazen.

Yeah, especially since Weyoun learned of Dukat's presence on Cardassia
Prime just a couple of weeks ago...

> -- A few other problems with Solbor's discovery. First, he was less
> than brilliant in running in and confronting them on his own rather
> than talking to a Vedek or two, though that's plausible given his
> character. Second, I find it hard to believe that he "analyzed the
> DNA" of Dukat completely on his own; *someone* should have
> knowledge that lives on past Solbor's death.

<Trekkie Rationalize>He wouldn't necessarily have to tell the lab who he
got the sample from or why he wanted to test it. He is a Ranjen (s.p.),
and can probably snow the techs who work there :) </Trekkie Rationalize>

> -- Yet *another* element of contrived mystery for the Breen: this
> time, it turns out they don't actually need those refrigeration suits. Let
> me guess: they're really angelic beings of light? Come on, folks...

How about this; the Pagh'Wraiths are trapped in the suits and are released
by some spell in the Fire Caves next week :)

> -- Since when does Weyoun call Thot Gor "General"?

With those helmets, how can you be sure it _was_ Gor, and not some other
Breen. :)

> -- The shot of the dying Defiant was absolutely beautiful, particularly
> the way we cut away from it on one face and then saw the other
> swivel into view.

The physics were terrible, though, as noted in the Cynics Corner Review.

> -- I happened to be on set one afternoon during the filming of "When
> It Rains..." (next week's show). While there, I saw a substantial
> Bajoran cavern set, which reminded me a lot of where Sisko found
> B'Hala. Given the events of this week, I'd be willing to bet that
> someone's making a little excursion to the fire-caves...
>
> -- On the same visit, I saw the Defiant bridge set, looking awfully
> banged-up. I figured that the set hadn't been cleaned up yet after a
> battle scene; I was right, but hadn't realized that the battle in question
> was the death of the Defiant. Eek. (On the other hand, this means I
> may have been one of the last few people to sit in Sisko's chair, and
> that's just cool. :-) )

Hmph. Show-off... I guess if I wrote positive reviews, I'd get invited
to the set, too :)
--
// David E. Sluss (The Cynic) \\ // "I'm impatient with \\
//_________ sluss%dhp.com _________\\//__ stupidity. My people have __\\
\\ Manager of The Cynics Corner: //\\ learned to live without it." //
\\ http://users.dhp.com/~sluss // \\ Klaatu //

[Timothy W. Lynch]

"David E. Sluss" <sl...@no-square-canned-processed-meat.dhp.com> writes:

>[wholesale snippage]

>"Timothy W. Lynch" <tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu> wrote:

Spoilers:


>> There are a few small questions lurking in my mind here and there
>> (such as how Solbor got any of Dukat's DNA in the first place,

>I hate to Trekkie Rationalize, but I got the impression that Dukat left

>DNA when he punched Solbor.

Very likely. This one's a small problem; his ability to analyze it
without anyone else knowing is somewhat more annoying.

>> -- The shot of the dying Defiant was absolutely beautiful, particularly
>> the way we cut away from it on one face and then saw the other
>> swivel into view.

>The physics were terrible, though, as noted in the Cynics Corner Review.

I'll admit that I've mostly turned the physics portion of my brain off
during Trek most of the time unless it's something really, really
egregious. I'll have to look at the CCR and see what you mean.

>> -- I happened to be on set one afternoon during the filming of "When
>> It Rains..." (next week's show). While there, I saw a substantial
>> Bajoran cavern set, which reminded me a lot of where Sisko found
>> B'Hala. Given the events of this week, I'd be willing to bet that
>> someone's making a little excursion to the fire-caves...
>>
>> -- On the same visit, I saw the Defiant bridge set, looking awfully
>> banged-up. I figured that the set hadn't been cleaned up yet after a
>> battle scene; I was right, but hadn't realized that the battle in question
>> was the death of the Defiant. Eek. (On the other hand, this means I
>> may have been one of the last few people to sit in Sisko's chair, and
>> that's just cool. :-) )

>Hmph. Show-off... I guess if I wrote positive reviews, I'd get invited

>to the set, too :)

I'm not at all sure my reviews would have been considered positive at
the time; this was around the time "The Emperor's New Cloak" aired.
;-) (Besides, I can say that it had nothing to do with my reviews
whatsoever; I was just in the right place at the right time.)

Tim Lynch

[Cory C. Albrecht]

In article <Pine.LNX.4.04.990504...@shell.dhp.com>, "David E. Sluss" <sl...@no-square-canned-processed-meat.dhp.com> wrote:
>"Timothy W. Lynch" <tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu> wrote:

>> There are a few small questions lurking in my mind here and there
>> (such as how Solbor got any of Dukat's DNA in the first place,

>I hate to Trekkie Rationalize, but I got the impression that Dukat left

>DNA when he punched Solbor. Maybe Solbor baited him deliberately, for
>that very purpose? If not, then, based on various Fun With DNA episodes,

How about some nice, simple, far more workable explanation like "Solbor
got Dukat's DNA from a cup or eating utensils?" Federation medicine,
which Bajor has access to, could probably get DNA from dead skin cells.

--
Cory C. Albrecht
http://www.sentex.ca/~cory/

[Laura Taylor]

"Cory C. Albrecht" wrote:
>
> In article <Pine.LNX.4.04.990504...@shell.dhp.com>, "David E. Sluss" <sl...@no-square-canned-processed-meat.dhp.com> wrote:
> >"Timothy W. Lynch" <tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu> wrote:

> >> There are a few small questions lurking in my mind here and there
> >> (such as how Solbor got any of Dukat's DNA in the first place,
>

> >I hate to Trekkie Rationalize, but I got the impression that Dukat left
> >DNA when he punched Solbor. Maybe Solbor baited him deliberately, for
> >that very purpose? If not, then, based on various Fun With DNA episodes,
>
> How about some nice, simple, far more workable explanation like "Solbor
> got Dukat's DNA from a cup or eating utensils?" Federation medicine,
> which Bajor has access to, could probably get DNA from dead skin cells.

There's also a perfectly reasonable R-rated explanation for how Solbor
got Dukat's DNA, but I'll wager no one really wants to think about it
(so I won't say it).

Laura
--
=====

"How old are you today?"
"Thirty years old."
"Thirty years old?! Whoa, you have a *long* time until you're 99!"

[Piers Sutton]

Diane Fitzsimmons wrote:

>
> Timothy W. Lynch wrote:
> >
> >> -- Yet *another* element of contrived mystery for the Breen: this
> > time, it turns out they don't actually need those refrigeration suits. Let
> > me guess: they're really angelic beings of light? Come on, folks...
> >
> > -- Actually, I'd love to see that the Breen look totally plebeian under
> > their suits; I'm hoping to see one get unmasked and revealed as, oh,
> > George Takei annoyed at having missed out on "Trials and Tribble-
> > ations." :-)
> >
>

> My husband and I really pondered over Weyoun's claim, because in an
> episode of Voyager, the crew was put in a spaceship zoo that had
> habitats for each of the species aboard. The Breen area was a desolate
> iceland. Were the alien zookeepers fooled by the refrigeration suits?
> Or is Weyoun's info wrong?
>
> Diane

An alternate explanation could be that the Breen homeworld has undergone
dramatic (engineered or natural) climactic changes and is indeed
temperate now, but if it were a sudden (10-1,000 years) change the Breen
would not have have adapted. I don't know, really guessing and it's
pretty far fetched =)

Turtle-Tracks

[OfficialWeredragon]

In article <372DCC1C...@pop.ou.edu>,

dcfitz...@ou.edu wrote:
> Timothy W. Lynch wrote:
> >

> >> -- Yet *another* element of contrived mystery for the Breen: this
> > time, it turns out they don't actually need those refrigeration suits. Let
> > me guess: they're really angelic beings of light? Come on, folks...
> >
> > -- Actually, I'd love to see that the Breen look totally plebeian under
> > their suits; I'm hoping to see one get unmasked and revealed as, oh,
> > George Takei annoyed at having missed out on "Trials and Tribble-
> > ations." :-)
> >
>

> My husband and I really pondered over Weyoun's claim, because in an
> episode of Voyager, the crew was put in a spaceship zoo that had
> habitats for each of the species aboard. The Breen area was a desolate
> iceland. Were the alien zookeepers fooled by the refrigeration suits?
> Or is Weyoun's info wrong?
>
> Diane
>

Don't forget... oh, grr, what was the name... the episode Dukat gets his
Klingon BOP. He tells Kira that when he gets back into power, he's going to
send the man who's been sleeping with his wife to the Cardassian embassy on
Breen because (paraphrase) "It's very cold on Breen."

OK, we've clearly got some major Breen inconsistancis here...

(Hmm, I wonder what Dukat eventually did to that guy...)

--
Bethany
The Official Weredragon of ???

-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own

[Iris L. Chang]

Timothy W. Lynch (tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu) wrote:
: "David E. Sluss" <sl...@no-square-canned-processed-meat.dhp.com> writes:
: >I hate to Trekkie Rationalize, but I got the impression that Dukat left

: >DNA when he punched Solbor.

:
: Very likely. This one's a small problem; his ability to analyze it

: without anyone else knowing is somewhat more annoying.

It's not really a skill so much as a modern convenience. I doubt he sent
off samples to the Bajoran science ministry for analysis. He probably
used his great-grandchild's toy computer to analyze the DNA and link up to
the Bajoran Central Archives to retrieve a match.

Remember that 24th century computers are usable even by people who don't
understand them at all. In "The Assignment," we saw O'Brien have the
computer run several analyses by asking very simple questions. Also, in
"The Collaborator," Kira was able to match a partial retina pattern to
Vedek Bariel rather easily. And I doubt anyone would be interested in
protecting the medical privacy of the Butcher of Bajor. Even so, a monk
attached to the personal staff of the Kai would probably find many doors
opened to him among other Bajorans.

It was sad that Solbor was so blindly loyal that the first person he told
was the Kai, although it was obvious from his reaction that he did not
suspect the degree of Winn's complicity.

Mahalo,
Ryan Chang

[gru...@socrates.berkeley.edu]

OfficialWeredragon (bethan...@hotmail.com) wrote:

: dcfitz...@ou.edu wrote:
: > Timothy W. Lynch wrote:

: >
: > My husband and I really pondered over Weyoun's claim, because in an

: > episode of Voyager, the crew was put in a spaceship zoo that had
: > habitats for each of the species aboard. The Breen area was a desolate
: > iceland. Were the alien zookeepers fooled by the refrigeration suits?
: > Or is Weyoun's info wrong?

: Don't forget... oh, grr, what was the name... the episode Dukat gets his

: Klingon BOP. He tells Kira that when he gets back into power, he's going to
: send the man who's been sleeping with his wife to the Cardassian embassy on
: Breen because (paraphrase) "It's very cold on Breen."

I believe the phrase was, "I hear it's *bitter* cold on Breen." (evil
laughter). I love the way Marc Alaimo presents that line... :)

So Dukat's knowledge of Breen may be from rumors and may not be
entirely accurate. Does anyone know/remember if Dukat refers to a
"Cardassian embassy on Breen" (which would imply that Cardassians
have indeed set foot on Breen and that rumors about its temperature
would be accurate) or if he only refers to making his enemy some kind
of ambassador assigned to work on Breen (which could be a nonexistent
post that Dukat is fantasizing about creating just for this poor sod)?

: OK, we've clearly got some major Breen inconsistancis here...

Maybe. Dukat's and Weyoun's information differs, but since we don't
really know the source for either it's hard to say if it truly is an
inconsistency or if one (or even both) of the characters is
misinformed.

As to the original question regarding Voyager's vision of the Breen,
should we even consider Voyager canon? :) No flames, please... :)

: (Hmm, I wonder what Dukat eventually did to that guy...)

Maybe he's in prison with Tom Riker. :)

Greg

[DEBernardo]

Don't forget, folks: Weyoun's a Vorta -- He's probably lying through his
teeth, giving Damar false information just to reinforce his point.

[Lee Ann Rucker]

In article <7gqq1n$ofb$1...@agate.berkeley.edu>, gru...@socrates.berkeley.edu
() wrote:

>: Don't forget... oh, grr, what was the name... the episode Dukat gets his
>: Klingon BOP. He tells Kira that when he gets back into power, he's going to
>: send the man who's been sleeping with his wife to the Cardassian embassy on
>: Breen because (paraphrase) "It's very cold on Breen."
>
>I believe the phrase was, "I hear it's *bitter* cold on Breen." (evil
>laughter). I love the way Marc Alaimo presents that line... :)

Cardassians like it to be rather warmer than humans IIRC. "cold" is relative

[David B.]

Laura Taylor wrote:

> "Cory C. Albrecht" wrote:
> >
> > In article <Pine.LNX.4.04.990504...@shell.dhp.com>, "David E. Sluss" <sl...@no-square-canned-processed-meat.dhp.com> wrote:
> > >"Timothy W. Lynch" <tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu> wrote:

> > >> There are a few small questions lurking in my mind here and there
> > >> (such as how Solbor got any of Dukat's DNA in the first place,
> >

> > >I hate to Trekkie Rationalize, but I got the impression that Dukat left

> > >DNA when he punched Solbor. Maybe Solbor baited him deliberately, for
> > >that very purpose? If not, then, based on various Fun With DNA episodes,
> >
> > How about some nice, simple, far more workable explanation like "Solbor
> > got Dukat's DNA from a cup or eating utensils?" Federation medicine,
> > which Bajor has access to, could probably get DNA from dead skin cells.
>
> There's also a perfectly reasonable R-rated explanation for how Solbor
> got Dukat's DNA, but I'll wager no one really wants to think about it
> (so I won't say it).
>

You don't have to say it...it's clear what you mean.

[Johnny Rhyne]

David B. <both...@hotmail.com> wrote in article
<372E76F3...@hotmail.com>...

> DEBernardo wrote:
>
> > >His plain-spoken call to
> > >"Resist. Resist today. Resist tomorrow. Resist until the last
> > >Dominion soldier has been driven from our soil!" was actually worth a
> > >cheer or two.
> >

> > Yeah, but how effective was it? Weyoun and the Founder are standing
there
> > listening to Damar urge "every Cardassian to rise up," and who are
standing
> > right behind the Vorta and the Founder? Two Cardassian soldiers, doing
nothing
> > of the kind. In fact, they aren't even listening to Damar, their heads
are
> > glued to their terminals. I was hoping they'd turn and drop Weyoun
like a rock
> > (at least, before the Founder and/or any Jem'Hadar standing nearby
clobbered
> > them...).
>
> Maybe those two like the Dominion...

Or perhaps they're playing along so they can start feeding intel to Damar.

>