[DS9] Lynch's Spoiler Review: "The Emperor's New Cloak"
Bedslug
> X-No-Archive: Yes
> Timothy W. Lynch wrote in message <79ll14$2...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>...
>
> >Every mirror-universe story which has really
> >succeeded has offered at least one of two things. Either we've seen a
> >complex, multi-faceted mirror-universe character who makes for fairly
> >compelling viewing (see Spock in "Mirror, Mirror" or Kira in
> >"Crossover") or a serious web of intrigue as people need to
> >impersonate their doubles...
>
> This analysis is spot-on. "Crossover" was an excellent sequel to the
> original "Mirror, Mirror." Everything we have seen since then is entirely
> uninteresting.
"everything since then" does not consist of solely 'Resurrection' and 'The
Emporer's New Cloak'.
Debster
Timothy W. Lynch <tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu> wrote in message
news:79ll14$2...@gap.cco.caltech.edu...
>WARNING: Call them what you will, they're still spoilers for DS9's
>"The Emperor's New Cloak," and they're still below.
>
>In brief: "Travesty" is a bit strong, so ... well, actually, no it's not.
Well, to put it simply, watch "Sliders" if you like alt-universe stories.
The TOS ep mirror-mirror was fun. We got to see our characters in a
different light, especially Spock. Crossover worked as well, but look at
this last one, Same old, Same old. Do something signifigant with the mirror
univ, or drop it.
Timothy W. Lynch
"The Emperor's New Cloak," and they're still below.
In brief: "Travesty" is a bit strong, so ... well, actually, no it's not.
Written by: Ira Steven Behr & Hans Beimler
Directed by: LeVar Burton
Brief summary: Quark and Rom go into the mirror universe in an
attempt to rescue Grand Nagus Zek.
======
Having recently read Armin Shimerman and David R. George's novel
_The 34th Rule_, I've come to realize anew that stories with a major
Ferengi presence often have a lot of potential. _The 34th Rule_ gives
the readers Ferengi who aren't simply parodies of capitalism, a Grand
Nagus Zek with a true talent for scheming and business, clashes of
Ferengi philosophy which aren't simply tempest-in-a-teapot stories,
and a pretty engaging story in the bargain. I've resolved to look at
Ferengi stories in a new light.
Unfortunately, that new light first shone on "The Emperor's New
Cloak." While not the offense against human dignity that was "Profit
and Lace" last year, this show is nearly as unwatchable. For a
change, however, that's not primarily due to the influence of Quark,
Rom, and Zek; rather, it's because the mirror universe as shown over
the last few years appears to have completely and utterly played itself
out.
The basic idea here is that a mirror-universe Ezri, whom we soon find
is a mercenary willing to hire out to whichever side pays her better,
enters our universe to deliver Quark a message from Zek. Zek, who
foolishly chose to enter the mirror universe in search of new avenues
of profit, has now been taken hostage by the Alliance (the bad guys,
for those who left their scorecards at home) and can only be ransomed
with a cloaking device. So, off go our intrepid Ferengi heroes to get
said device and deliver it to the Regent, our friendly neighborhood
Worf.
So what's wrong with that scenario?
Well, it's like this: Every mirror-universe story which has really
succeeded has offered at least one of two things. Either we've seen a
complex, multi-faceted mirror-universe character who makes for fairly
compelling viewing (see Spock in "Mirror, Mirror" or Kira in
"Crossover") or a serious web of intrigue as people need to
impersonate their doubles (see either of the above two episodes, Mike
Barr's "Mirror Universe Saga" from DC Comics in the mid-80s, or
Diane Duane's _Dark Mirror_). As mirror-DS9 stories have
continued on, however, both of those have been slowly fading away
-- and while the latter may be difficult to maintain for a long time, the
net effect of losing *both* is that we get shows which amount to little
more than sets of cameos: "Hey, let's see who we can toss in now!"
What's worse, with the possible exception of "Smiley" O'Brien, there
is no longer a single character in that universe I would want to spend
as much as two minutes with. The mirror-Sisko was a complex,
driven man who was very interesting in "Crossover"; alas, he's dead.
Mirror-Kira's still around; unfortunately, all of her needy duality has
been replaced with even more intense vampish qualities (not to
mention even further playing up of that Eeeeevil Lesbianism Thang
[TM]). The original mirror-Garak (as seen in "Crossover") was a
patient man who thought on several levels at once; while he clearly
wanted more power, he was also circumspect in his approaches.
Now, presented for your viewing pleasure, here is the current crop of
mirror-universe denizens:
Mirror-Kira, the Intendant: see above.
Mirror-Worf, the Regent: ah. Someone who slugs and kills his
underlings for fun, destroys people when they've outlived their
usefulness, and who throws tantrums (and furniture) when he doesn't
get his way. While it's tempting to make jokes like "Oh, so Ken
Starr's on steroids now," the truth is that the character isn't even
*that* interesting.
Mirror-Garak: a sadistic, sniveling little toady. *Not* what I want to
see from Garak or from Andrew Robinson.
Captain "Smiley" Mirror-O'Brien: Still potentially interesting (due in
no small way, I suspect, to Colm Meaney), but we didn't see enough
of him here to be sure.
Mirror-Bashir: A strutting, killing-obsessed jerk. No, thanks.
Mirror-Brunt: An improvement on the original Brunt, to be sure, but
that's not necessarily saying much. Besides, before we could decide
whether we liked him or not he was stabbed by the Intendant, thus
keeping up the mirror-universe quota of one dead Ferengi per episode.
Mirror-Ezri: A treat for those who wanted to see Nicole deBoer
punked-out, Ezri here gets to play the "mercenary who grows a
conscience" Han Solo role. However, if I wanted to see Solo, I'd
watch Solo.
Mirror-Leeta: Clearly, the Intendant's vamping and Ezri's passionate
kiss with the Intendant are no longer enough to satisfy the hormone-
laden teenage demographic, or so it's believed. Thus ... cleavage,
and the hint of yet *another* lesbian one-night-stand in the near
future.
Mirror-Vic: Yes, you heard me. There's a Vic Fontaine in this
universe, he's real, and mirror-Bashir phasers him. Apart from
satisfying those with a severe Vic fetish, what on *Earth* was the
point of this one?
As presented, the above crop of characters may or may not be capable
of rising above the level of stock dialogue and scenes -- but we can't
know, as they're never given the opportunity. O'Brien gets to say
"We're fighting for our freedom, for our very lives," while Bashir
insists that his dislike of Ezri has "nothing to do with Jadzia," who
was killed in a skirmish sometime after *that* universe's Terry Farrell
opted out of her contract. Worf talks about "crushing the rebellion
once and for all," Kira gets to proposition anything with a pulse ...
and so forth. It's rare that an episode runs from beginning to end
without so much as a single scene making me lean forward in my seat
interested in the action, but "The Emperor's New Cloak" managed it.
Then, there are the loopholes and serious attacks of plot convenience.
For one thing, given that Quark and Rom outright stole a cloaking
device from Martok in order to free Zek in the first place, shouldn't
the next episode open with the two of them in *jail*? Odo's said for
years that he'd love to nail Quark for a legitimate crime; well, here you
go, Constable. But, hey, there's only half a season left; we can't
afford little things like consequences can we?
As another example ... one wonders just how in blazes Zek found his
way into the mirror-universe in the first place. This one's actually
mentioned in dialogue -- Zek tells Rom that he happened to spy the
schematic for the "multi-dimensional transport device" (which really
sounds like it belongs in "Hardware Wars," but I digress) on a padd
Rom brought home to Ferenginar once. Excuse me? Am I to
understand that one of the biggest and best-kept secrets in Federation
history is common enough knowledge that O'Brien would entrust a
schematic of such a device to *Rom*, and that Rom would be
intensely stupid enough to bring it home with him? Methinks
someone, or perhaps several someones, should be facing a court-
martial here...
[As a quick entertaining aside, once the cloaking device is powered up
Garak delightedly exclaims, "It's working!" Well ... if he's inside the
ship, how could he know? Did he hail the Defiant and say, "By the
way, you can't see us, can you?" :-) ]
There are plenty of other things I could bring up (such as the usual
equating of alternate sexuality with evil intent, or how intensely
annoying Rom's shrill dialogue is this time around), but suffice it to
say that "The Emperor's New Cloak" is not one to keep. I've had a
soft spot for the mirror universe ever since I first saw "Mirror,
Mirror" a couple of decades ago, but at this point I don't want to see it
again unless a lot of its history is summarily tossed out an airlock.
It's not interesting any more. The bumper at the beginning of the
episode said "In Memory of Jerome Bixby," who created the mirror
universe in the first place; I'm just glad he never saw this one.
Wrapping up:
Writing: Sexual innuendo and annoying personal habits do not a story
make, or even a particularly entertaining scene make.
Directing: It's hard to say when it's this bad a mess. I'd be inclined
to lay at least *some* responsibility at LeVar Burton's feet,
however.
Acting: Meaney was the sole bright spot; others were inoffensive at
best.
OVERALL: 1. I was just thinking that DS9 hadn't had a complete
dud all season; I really ought to know better.
NEXT WEEK:
Ezri faces her inner demons to understand a killer.
Tim Lynch (Harvard-Westlake School, Science Dept.)
tly...@alumni.caltech.edu <*>
"You worthless piece of space trash."
-- mirror-Bashir's idea of light repartee
--
Copyright 1999, Timothy W. Lynch. All rights reserved, but feel free to ask...
This article is explicitly prohibited from being used in any off-net
compilation without due attribution and *express written consent of the
author*. Walnut Creek and other CD-ROM distributors, take note.
Chris Blaise
wrote:
>To my mind at least, it's pretty clear that "The Emperor's New Cloak" is a
>farce from frame one 'til the closing credits. Criticizing it for having
>some plot contrivances and a lack of textured portrayals is, in my
>opinion, like criticizing "Take Me Out to the Holosuite" for not making
>you bawl your eyes out. Both are meant to be very lightweight comedies
>(or at least reasonable facsimiles thereof).
Comedy is fine. I like comedy. Comedy on Star Trek can be
good...when it remains consistant with the show itself.
Take the procuring of Martog's cloaking device. Has it ever
been established that Klingons would act with grace and understanding
if someone stole anything, let alone their CLOAKING device from their
ship? A piece of equipment that would have horrible reprecussions if
it wasn't noticed. Like say, battle. Like say, battle in the war the
Alpha quadrant is in?
It's hard to dismiss Quark and Rom's thievery as "cute" given
the situation. Watching it happen, I could hardly believe that next
week I'd see a reset to the status quo when in reality, both the
Klingon and Federation should have locked them up for 20 years.
Assuming that the Klingons even allowed the two to live once they
returned.
Why do something so ridiculous when it could have been avoided
by slightly less contrived circumstances. I think a barter scene with
Martog would have been a bit over the top but would have been much
more entertaining and in sync with both the characters and established
boundries of the show. Or hell, even Nog making his own cloaking
device from spare parts.
Given that DS9 is starting to be afflicted with the same
Idiocy virus that has affected Voyager since it's beginning, I can
only look more forward to the series ending. It's a shame because on
the whole, I've felt that DS9 has had the bulk of exciting and
entertaining episodes in all of Star Trek, but this season has been
extremely dissapointing with with the focus on Ezri, Vic, and yet more
silly Ferengi tripe.
Chris
Jose Gonzalez
Some ***Spoilers***
> Take the procuring of Martog's cloaking device. Has it ever
> been established that Klingons would act with grace and understanding
> if someone stole anything, let alone their CLOAKING device from their
> ship? A piece of equipment that would have horrible reprecussions if
> it wasn't noticed. Like say, battle. Like say, battle in the war the
> Alpha quadrant is in?
I think what people are forgetting with this nitpick is just *who* Rom and
Quark stole the cloaking device to rescue. Does anyone think that the
Grand Nagus of Ferenginar does *not* have the weight to get these charges
on Rom and Quark dropped in a heartbeat? You think the Klingons and the
Federation aren't going to want to stay on good terms with Ferenginar in
the middle of the war? And that arresting the two men who just saved the
leader of that world's life is a good way to do that? (Or heck, I can
imagine quite a few "services" or supplies or weapons that the Grand Nagus
could offer in return for having the charges dropped.) Quark and Rom are
hardly worth the risk of alienating a potential ally and friend, and even
Martok would realize that.
-
Jose Gonzalez
Jose Gonzalez
> In brief: "Travesty" is a bit strong, so ... well, actually, no it's not.
(a whole lotta review snipped)
I'm not quite understanding, Tim. *How* did you feel about the episode?
Quit being vague, man!
Seriously (maybe), I can understand why you (and others, no doubt) don't
care for the episode, but don't you think you're critiquing it here based
on what it isn't, rather than what it is? The serious drama that we both
loved in "Crossover" started to be phased out of MU episodes in "Through
the Looking Glass," and by the time "Shattered Mirror" rolled around, the
transformation was complete. Did you really think we were going to see it
brought back here?
To my mind at least, it's pretty clear that "The Emperor's New Cloak" is a
farce from frame one 'til the closing credits. Criticizing it for having
some plot contrivances and a lack of textured portrayals is, in my
opinion, like criticizing "Take Me Out to the Holosuite" for not making
you bawl your eyes out. Both are meant to be very lightweight comedies
(or at least reasonable facsimiles thereof).
"This isn't funny" or "This isn't funny *and* it's offensive" is really
about all anyone needs to say, I think. Nothing to debate over there.
Me, I laughed. A lot. And that's all I think the episode was trying to
achieve. Do I wish the staff had kept on with the tone and realism of
"Crossover" for the subsequent visits to the MU? Oh yeah -- that's what I
would have done, and you too I'm sure. But farces are what they became,
and that's pretty much all I can judge them on.
As always, you may disagree.
-
Jose Gonzalez
Oh, and on your question as to why they bothered showing Mirror Vic for
all of 10 seconds, I think there's a long tradition in most MU stories
(Trek or otherwise) of having these throwaway cameos that give you just a
small taste of how some MU characters, who aren't the main thrust of the
story, turned out. Thought it was rather cool myself, but what are you
gonna do?
Chris Blaise
wrote:
>I think what people are forgetting with this nitpick is just *who* Rom and
>Quark stole the cloaking device to rescue. Does anyone think that the
>Grand Nagus of Ferenginar does *not* have the weight to get these charges
>on Rom and Quark dropped in a heartbeat?
Then why not have Rom/Nog talk to Sisko/Martog to begin with?
Then a combined Klingon/Federation force could save the day
and...you'd have a different story.
I didn't particularily mind the story itself, but I had
trouble with how they made the story come about.
Chris
David E. Sluss
>To my mind at least, it's pretty clear that "The Emperor's New Cloak" is a
>farce from frame one 'til the closing credits. Criticizing it for having
>some plot contrivances and a lack of textured portrayals is, in my
>opinion, like criticizing "Take Me Out to the Holosuite" for not making
>you bawl your eyes out. Both are meant to be very lightweight comedies
>(or at least reasonable facsimiles thereof).
A "comedy episode" within a dramatic series, I think, still has to be
judged in terms of the series overall, particularly when it's part of
not only the "Mirror Universe Arc," as it were, but of DS9's overall
story, as indicated by Sisko and Martok's half-assed war mention.
It's not as though these events didn't happen within DS9's storyline.
I think that it's perfectly appropriate to complain about Quark and
Rom getting away with the theft of the cloaking device, or the fact
that the Evil Empire _had_ cloaking tech in the first place (c.f.
"Through the Looking Glass"), or any of the crapola in this episode.
The fact that much of the comedy wasn't funny is just another in a
list of serious problems with this episode.
--
// David E. Sluss (The Cynic) \\ // "I'm impatient with \\
//_________ sluss%dhp.com _________\\//__ stupidity. My people have __\\
\\ Manager of The Cynics Corner: //\\ learned to live without it." //
\\ http://users.dhp.com/~sluss // \\ Klaatu //
Timothy W. Lynch
>On 8 Feb 1999, Timothy W. Lynch wrote:
>> In brief: "Travesty" is a bit strong, so ... well, actually, no it's not.
>(a whole lotta review snipped)
>I'm not quite understanding, Tim. *How* did you feel about the episode?
>Quit being vague, man!
>Seriously (maybe), I can understand why you (and others, no doubt) don't
>care for the episode, but don't you think you're critiquing it here based
>on what it isn't, rather than what it is?
Yes. It wasn't good. It wasn't funny. It wasn't remotely
interesting or entertaining.
Or is that not what you meant? :-)
No, I didn't seriously expect a return to "Crossover," but even
"Shattered Mirror" had *moments* I liked and occasionally interesting
characters. This one didn't. Them's what's makes the difference
between a middling rating and a 1.
>To my mind at least, it's pretty clear that "The Emperor's New Cloak" is a
>farce from frame one 'til the closing credits. Criticizing it for having
>some plot contrivances and a lack of textured portrayals is, in my
>opinion, like criticizing "Take Me Out to the Holosuite" for not making
>you bawl your eyes out. Both are meant to be very lightweight comedies
>(or at least reasonable facsimiles thereof).
You can be lightweight and not contrived. Look at "In the Cards":
highly amusing, and it had the added benefit of characters you could
care about and plot twists that made sense for the most part.
As you say, what it boils down to is "this isn't funny," but added
details always help...
Tim Lynch
Ken McAuliffe
episode was pure crap, and I wish that if a "Mirror, Mirror" follow-up
*had* to be made, that it would be a filmed version of Diane Duane's
"Dark Mirror," the only mirror universe story that I've been satisfied
with since the original.
Ken McAuliffe
wrote:
>On Mon, 8 Feb 1999, Chris Blaise wrote:
>
>Some ***Spoilers***
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> Take the procuring of Martog's cloaking device. Has it ever
>> been established that Klingons would act with grace and understanding
>> if someone stole anything, let alone their CLOAKING device from their
>> ship? A piece of equipment that would have horrible reprecussions if
>> it wasn't noticed. Like say, battle. Like say, battle in the war the
>> Alpha quadrant is in?
>
>I think what people are forgetting with this nitpick is just *who* Rom and
>Quark stole the cloaking device to rescue. Does anyone think that the
>Grand Nagus of Ferenginar does *not* have the weight to get these charges
>on Rom and Quark dropped in a heartbeat? You think the Klingons and the
>Federation aren't going to want to stay on good terms with Ferenginar in
>the middle of the war? And that arresting the two men who just saved the
>leader of that world's life is a good way to do that? (Or heck, I can
>imagine quite a few "services" or supplies or weapons that the Grand Nagus
>could offer in return for having the charges dropped.) Quark and Rom are
>hardly worth the risk of alienating a potential ally and friend, and even
>Martok would realize that.
>
Given how useless the Ferengi basically are, I have trouble imagining
Sisko, Martok, or any in the Alpha Quadrant alliance missing the Grand
Nagus.
Ken McAuliffe
wrote:
>On 8 Feb 1999, Timothy W. Lynch wrote:
>
>> In brief: "Travesty" is a bit strong, so ... well, actually, no it's not.
>
>(a whole lotta review snipped)
>
>I'm not quite understanding, Tim. *How* did you feel about the episode?
>Quit being vague, man!
>
>Seriously (maybe), I can understand why you (and others, no doubt) don't
>care for the episode, but don't you think you're critiquing it here based
>on what it isn't, rather than what it is? The serious drama that we both
>loved in "Crossover" started to be phased out of MU episodes in "Through
>the Looking Glass," and by the time "Shattered Mirror" rolled around, the
>transformation was complete. Did you really think we were going to see it
>brought back here?
>
>To my mind at least, it's pretty clear that "The Emperor's New Cloak" is a
>farce from frame one 'til the closing credits. Criticizing it for having
>some plot contrivances and a lack of textured portrayals is, in my
>opinion, like criticizing "Take Me Out to the Holosuite" for not making
>you bawl your eyes out. Both are meant to be very lightweight comedies
>(or at least reasonable facsimiles thereof).
>
>"This isn't funny" or "This isn't funny *and* it's offensive" is really
>about all anyone needs to say, I think. Nothing to debate over there.
>
>Me, I laughed. A lot. And that's all I think the episode was trying to
>achieve. Do I wish the staff had kept on with the tone and realism of
>"Crossover" for the subsequent visits to the MU? Oh yeah -- that's what I
>would have done, and you too I'm sure. But farces are what they became,
>and that's pretty much all I can judge them on.
It seems like the entire show has become a farce.
>Oh, and on your question as to why they bothered showing Mirror Vic for
>all of 10 seconds, I think there's a long tradition in most MU stories
>(Trek or otherwise) of having these throwaway cameos that give you just a
>small taste of how some MU characters, who aren't the main thrust of the
>story, turned out. Thought it was rather cool myself, but what are you
>gonna do?
For example, how about (theoretically, of course) retaining the Mirror
Jadzia instead of showing a useless double of an already useless
hologram?
Nelson Lu
Ken McAuliffe <km...@voicenet.com> wrote:
>Given how useless the Ferengi basically are, I have trouble imagining
>Sisko, Martok, or any in the Alpha Quadrant alliance missing the Grand
>Nagus.
Then you don't have enough of an imagination; having the Ferengi aligned with
you definitely helps; those Ferengi marauder ships, if used properly, can be
quite effective. In fact, in "Valiant," it was implied that Nog was carrying
a proposal for a Federation/Ferengi alliance to the Grand Nagus. Further, in
the episode where Nog lost his leg, Quark was along on a "factfinding" mission
after ordered there by the Grand Nagus; that was probably so that the Grand
Nagus could have a better idea whether to join the war on the part of the
alliance.
Further, no matter how the Grand Nagus is, he is at least on pretty good terms
with Sisko and apparently the Federation. Brunt, who probably would succeed
Zek if he died, is not necessarily so. In any case, even if you take a rather
"useless" nation in the world today (say, Eritrea), I would imagine that even
its president would have quite a bit of pull with other nations.
Jose Gonzalez
> Jose Gonzalez <jo...@bcpl.net> writes:
> >On 8 Feb 1999, Timothy W. Lynch wrote:
> No, I didn't seriously expect a return to "Crossover," but even
> "Shattered Mirror" had *moments* I liked and occasionally interesting
> characters. This one didn't. Them's what's makes the difference
> between a middling rating and a 1.
Even given your feelings on this, a 1 seems a little harsh. But wait,
this *was* an episode that featured Rom, so maybe I do understand it. (:
> You can be lightweight and not contrived. Look at "In the Cards":
> highly amusing, and it had the added benefit of characters you could
> care about and plot twists that made sense for the most part.
But also look at "Trials and Tribble-ations," which also had some major
contrivances driving the premise forward. As I recall, you enjoyed that
one quite a bit. I suppose I just think that the tone of something
determines how much leeway it gets. But the effectiveness *also*
determines that leeway, and there I can understand why you're giving it
none.
> As you say, what it boils down to is "this isn't funny," but added
> details always help...
But do the details you remarked on speak to *why* it wasn't funny; I think
those would be the most salient.
-
Jose Gonzalez
Jose Gonzalez
No Spoilers...
> A "comedy episode" within a dramatic series, I think, still has to be
> judged in terms of the series overall, particularly when it's part of
> not only the "Mirror Universe Arc," as it were, but of DS9's overall
> story, as indicated by Sisko and Martok's half-assed war mention.
> It's not as though these events didn't happen within DS9's storyline.
> I think that it's perfectly appropriate to complain about Quark and
> Rom getting away with the theft of the cloaking device, or the fact
> that the Evil Empire _had_ cloaking tech in the first place (c.f.
> "Through the Looking Glass"), or any of the crapola in this episode.
> The fact that much of the comedy wasn't funny is just another in a
> list of serious problems with this episode.
That you thought it wasn't funny is enough to lambaste the episode, I
completely agree. And I'm not saying that plot contrivances or "any of
the other crapola" is irrelevant; I don't think it is. I think we just
disagree on how much it *matters* in an episode like this. For me, the
whole MU saga stopped making a lot of sense after "Through the Looking
Glass." The episodes became a way to do some really outrageous stuff that
I don't think the writers could get away with in the non-MU universe.
Even your point about Quark and Rom getting away with theft, which I'm not
sure is such a contrivance considering who they rescued, is hard to be
bothered about when I'm spitting up my soda in laughter watching them do
it. (Lack of serious repercussions for crimes of all kinds is a bit of a
Trek cliche at this point, anyway.) If I hadn't laughed an awful lot
while watching this, I'd probably be pointing out the same (apparent)
flaws in the story logic. But ultimately, "this isn't funny" would still
be the only significant complaint I could make against it that I think
would hold weight for those who *did* laugh their heads off.
-
Jose Gonzalez
Jose Gonzalez
> On Mon, 8 Feb 1999, David E. Sluss wrote:
>
> No Spoilers...
*Ack* My apologies. There *were* some spoilers in there. Hope no one
was too terribly spoiled.
-
Jose Gonzalez
Timothy W. Lynch
>> No, I didn't seriously expect a return to "Crossover," but even
>> "Shattered Mirror" had *moments* I liked and occasionally interesting
>> characters. This one didn't. Them's what's makes the difference
>> between a middling rating and a 1.
>Even given your feelings on this, a 1 seems a little harsh. But wait,
>this *was* an episode that featured Rom, so maybe I do understand it. (:
Rom was annoying, but not the overarching problem. As I said in my
review, not a *single scene* in its entirety was something which made
me lean forward and wonder what was to come, or laugh uproariously, or
even do more than a millisecond chuckle. Given that, a 1 is not
harsh; if anything, it might even be generous. (In point of fact, at
least two responses I've gotten in email did in fact accuse me of
being overly generous.)
>> You can be lightweight and not contrived. Look at "In the Cards":
>> highly amusing, and it had the added benefit of characters you could
>> care about and plot twists that made sense for the most part.
>But also look at "Trials and Tribble-ations," which also had some major
>contrivances driving the premise forward.
You missed my first condition above. I cared about the characters in
T&T, and I quite frankly appreciated the winks. "Emperor" wasn't
winking; it was elbowing me hard in the ribs and saying "nudge,
nudge." That's only funny when it's Eric Idle.
>As I recall, you enjoyed that
>one quite a bit. I suppose I just think that the tone of something
>determines how much leeway it gets.
The actual tone? Yes. The *intended* one? Hell, no.
>> As you say, what it boils down to is "this isn't funny," but added
>> details always help...
>But do the details you remarked on speak to *why* it wasn't funny; I think
>those would be the most salient.
I'm not the one best qualified to judge whether my comments and
details were relevant; certainly I believe they were, but that's why I
have *readers*.
Tim Lynch
Jose Gonzalez
> Jose Gonzalez <jo...@bcpl.net> writes:
> >On 8 Feb 1999, Timothy W. Lynch wrote:
> [etc.]
> Rom was annoying, but not the overarching problem. As I said in my
> review, not a *single scene* in its entirety was something which made
> me lean forward and wonder what was to come, or laugh uproariously, or
> even do more than a millisecond chuckle. Given that, a 1 is not
> harsh; if anything, it might even be generous.
The way you described it there, a 1 sounds about right for you. I have to
admit that the very extreme negative reaction that "The Emperor's New
Cloak" has gotten from some corners took me very much by surprise.
Usually, even if I'm fond of an episode, I know when I'm watching it if
opinion will be very divided. ("His Way" was one of those.) But given
the reaction of many here, you'd think this was another "Profit and Lace,"
and I still can't see that.
I've gotten quite a bit of sentiment, in fact, from people who generally
agree with my reviews that I'm off my rocker for liking TENC. Maybe it's
just because comedy is so subjective, I don't know. Maybe I saw the MU
version of this. Or maybe, as one person wondered, I've been replaced by
"Mirror Jose." It's all a bit unsettling. (:
> >But do the details you remarked on speak to *why* it wasn't funny; I think
> >those would be the most salient.
>
> I'm not the one best qualified to judge whether my comments and
> details were relevant; certainly I believe they were, but that's why I
> have *readers*.
Fair enough. You've certainly got enough company on this one.
-
Jose Gonzalez
Gary Farber
[. . .]
: For me, the
: whole MU saga stopped making a lot of sense after "Through the Looking
: Glass."
I'd be amused to see you or anyone defend the proposition that it "made a
lot of sense" from word one, in "Mirror, Mirror." Amusing, yes. Fun,
yes. "Made a lot of sense"? I don't think so.
Okay, accept the premise that it's an alternate universe in which Earth
has a mean mean government by at least the 22nd Century. Fine. So, then,
the history would be so different, how could the lives of all the
characters have stayed so similar that they all wound up on a ship
of the Empire together?
How would Vulcan also have found it logical to *join* the Empire?
In "Mirror, Mirror" alone, we saw numerous characters killed off. Not to
mention the obvious fact of whole races being killed offstage, apparently
left and right. Obviously such differences in the universes will
*rapidly* produce *huge* *overwhelming* divergence of history.
Even if you can defend these propositions, how could the two universes
*still* wind up so remarkably alike that *70* *years* *later*, the
characters from DS9 are all in the same place together by the time of the
first DS9 Mirror Universe episode?
It's inconceivable as "making sense," save by writerly fiat. It's done
for the sake of fun, not because it makes any *sense*.
If you're going to write *serious* alternative history sf, the *first*
principle is that after the initial divergence point, things *diverge*.
The principle that, instead, people wind up together, but, you know,
Eviiiilllll, is simply ridiculous: deliberately farcical. The writers
know that. Which is why, for some of us, watching Rom try to work out
these contradictions was so hilarious in "The Emperor's New Cloak." The
fact is, the rules of the "twins" are utterly and completely arbitrary.
Of course. Couldn't be any other way.
: The episodes became a way to do some really outrageous stuff that
: I don't think the writers could get away with in the non-MU universe.
Absolutely. Right from "Mirror, Mirror," which was a complete romp for
all concerned. To retroactively consider to somehow have been Serious is
*bizarre*.
: Even your point about Quark and Rom getting away with theft, which I'm not
: sure is such a contrivance considering who they rescued, is hard to be
: bothered about when I'm spitting up my soda in laughter watching them do
: it.
Yep.
Humor is notoriously subjective. What is funny as hell for one person
leaves another person stone cold. It's always legitimate to declare that
"this wasn't funny for me." But one can *never* legitimately declare that
"this isn't funny," period, because, you know, whatever it is, *is* funny
for lots of other folks. For Tim to say that this episode, or other
Ferengi episodes, aren't funny for him: fine. For him to say flatly that
they aren't funny, as if there's some sort of objective measure, is
illegitimate, and I wish he'd reconsider such usages. No one has the
power to judge objective funniness, because there is no such thing.
[. . . .]
--
Copyright 1999 by Gary Farber; Web Researcher; Nonfiction Writer,
Fiction and Nonfiction Editor; gfa...@panix.com; B'klyn, NYC, US
Timo S Saloniemi
>On Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:28:16 -0500, Jose Gonzalez <jo...@bcpl.net> wrote:
>>I think what people are forgetting with this nitpick is just *who* Rom and
>>Quark stole the cloaking device to rescue. Does anyone think that the
>>Grand Nagus of Ferenginar does *not* have the weight to get these charges
>>on Rom and Quark dropped in a heartbeat? You think the Klingons and the
>>Federation aren't going to want to stay on good terms with Ferenginar in
>>the middle of the war? And that arresting the two men who just saved the
>>leader of that world's life is a good way to do that? (Or heck, I can
>>imagine quite a few "services" or supplies or weapons that the Grand Nagus
>>could offer in return for having the charges dropped.) Quark and Rom are
>>hardly worth the risk of alienating a potential ally and friend, and even
>>Martok would realize that.
>Given how useless the Ferengi basically are, I have trouble imagining
>Sisko, Martok, or any in the Alpha Quadrant alliance missing the Grand
>Nagus.
Useless? The Ferengi figured out this whole Dominion thing half a season
before the Dominion finally decided that the blindly stumbling Feds and
Klingons ought to be informed of the existence of the Gamma quadrant
superpower. They established trade relations. They kept those trade
relations working even after the Dominion forbade traffic through the
wormhole. For all we know, the relations are still working, and the
Ferengi still have friends on the other side.
Starfleet ought to have given the boot to all its Intelligence and
Security folks, and to the diplomats as well, and hired some
Ferengi to do the job right for a change.
Timo Saloniemi
Jose Gonzalez
> In <Pine.SOL.3.96.990209...@mail.bcpl.net> Jose
Gonzalez <jo...@bcpl.net> wrote:
> [. . .]
> : For me, the
> : whole MU saga stopped making a lot of sense after "Through the Looking
> : Glass."
>
> I'd be amused to see you or anyone defend the proposition that it "made a
> lot of sense" from word one, in "Mirror, Mirror." Amusing, yes. Fun,
> yes. "Made a lot of sense"? I don't think so.
Guess I wasn't entirely clear; I meant DS9's contribution to the Mirror
Universe, and most specifically "Crossover." (I should have said they
stopped making sense *with* "Through the Looking Glass," as that's what I
meant.)
> Okay, accept the premise that it's an alternate universe in which Earth
> has a mean mean government by at least the 22nd Century. Fine. So, then,
> the history would be so different, how could the lives of all the
> characters have stayed so similar that they all wound up on a ship
> of the Empire together?
That's why I can say that "Crossover" makes the best attempt at not
stretching credibility too far. You *didn't* have every single DS9
character on the station at that point. Kira, Garak, Quark and even Odo
didn't require great rationalizations to explain why they would be there.
The only major contrivance, as I saw it, were that *both* O'Brien and
Sisko were there. It's when they started bringing in *all* of DS9's
characters that it just became absurd. Was it absurd to begin with, even
with just a small number together in the MU? Maybe. But in "Crossover"
at least, special attention was payed to making us believe these
characters *could* turn out this way if life had presented them with these
alternate fates.
> It's inconceivable as "making sense," save by writerly fiat. It's done
> for the sake of fun, not because it makes any *sense*.
Okay. But I think there is a certain point at which the audience might be
willing to suspend disbelief and take it seriously; starting with "Through
the Looking Glass," I don't think even that was possible.
> Right from "Mirror, Mirror," which was a complete romp for
> all concerned. To retroactively consider to somehow have been Serious is
> *bizarre*.
I think you could argue that "Crossover" was the one divergence from the
tone, if nothing else, of all the others. It treated its subject
seriously, even if its subject wasn't a serious one.
-
Jose Gonzalez
Prolix68
>It's when they started bringing in *all* of DS9's
>characters that it just became absurd. Was it absurd to begin with, even
>with just a small number together in the MU? Maybe. But in "Crossover"
>at least, special attention was payed to making us believe these
>characters *could* turn out this way if life had presented them with these
>alternate fates.
Now, I'm curious. Are you including the original MU ep, "Mirror, Mirror", with
all this? Because how is what DS9 has done with it any different than all the
TOS crew members being on the alt.Enterprise, and in just about the same
capacities as the reg.Enterprise?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"When your pubic hair's on fire, something's wrong."
Tag. You're it.
Timothy W. Lynch
>Jose Gonzalez wrote:
>>It's when they started bringing in *all* of DS9's
>>characters that it just became absurd. Was it absurd to begin with, even
>>with just a small number together in the MU? Maybe. But in "Crossover"
>>at least, special attention was payed to making us believe these
>>characters *could* turn out this way if life had presented them with these
>>alternate fates.
>Now, I'm curious. Are you including the original MU ep, "Mirror,
>Mirror", with
>all this? Because how is what DS9 has done with it any different than all the
>TOS crew members being on the alt.Enterprise, and in just about the same
>capacities as the reg.Enterprise?
I'm not Jose, but I'll take this one.
I do see a difference between the "toss 'em all in!" approach for TOS
vs. DS9, and not just the fact that TOS was 30 years ago when
television was approached somewhat differently.
In TOS, every character was part of a single military organization,
and most of them were from the same planet. Having all of them wind
up in the same ship in both universes is still something of a stretch,
but *much* less of one than having members of 6+ different species and
several different military/political spheres all wind up in the same
area.
For the same reason, I'd say a mirror-TNG story involving every
character would be inherently more plausible than a mirror-DS9 story
involving everyone. TNG has a more homogeneous grouping.
Tim Lynch
Kryptonkid
Prolix68 wrote in message <19990212190357...@ng66.aol.com>...
>Even in the TOS MU, the possibility of those characters mere existence at
all
>is debatable. Same goes for the DS9/VOY/TNG potential. So there's no less
>chance of having the members of 6+ species meeting up in once place than
there
>is of their exsisting in the first place.
Well, maybe the reason they could get to that universe is that it was so
similar. Maybe their universes vibrate on similar frequencies. Hey, that's
how it works in comic books. :)
Prolix68
>I'm not Jose, but I'll take this one.
No prob. :-)
>I do see a difference between the "toss 'em all in!" approach for TOS
>vs. DS9, and not just the fact that TOS was 30 years ago when
>television was approached somewhat differently.
>
>In TOS, every character was part of a single military organization,
>and most of them were from the same planet. Having all of them wind
>up in the same ship in both universes is still something of a stretch,
>but *much* less of one than having members of 6+ different species and
>several different military/political spheres all wind up in the same
>area.
>
>For the same reason, I'd say a mirror-TNG story involving every
>character would be inherently more plausible than a mirror-DS9 story
>involving everyone. TNG has a more homogeneous grouping.
Good try, Tim, but on the scale of believability... still not there.
Even in the TOS MU, the possibility of those characters mere existence at all
is debatable. Same goes for the DS9/VOY/TNG potential. So there's no less
chance of having the members of 6+ species meeting up in once place than there
is of their exsisting in the first place.
However, this doesn't and hasn't distracted me from enjoying the eps for the
fun they are. :-)
Prolix68
>Well, maybe the reason they could get to that universe is that it was so
>similar. Maybe their universes vibrate on similar frequencies. Hey, that's
>how it works in comic books. :)
Uhm... thanks for that, but it has nothing to do with what I was talking about.
Gary Farber
[. . .]
: That's why I can say that "Crossover" makes the best attempt at not
: stretching credibility too far. You *didn't* have every single DS9
: character on the station at that point. Kira, Garak, Quark and even Odo
: didn't require great rationalizations to explain why they would be there.
I have trouble seeing this. The history of the Alpha Quadrant is wildly
different in the two universes, and has been for at least a couple of
centuries (perhaps far longer?). There was no Federation. The
Cardassians hold a different place in political/military history, and the
history of their political entity must have gone very differently.
Countless hundreds of millions of Cardassians alive in one universe are
dead in the other, or never lived; hundreds of millions who were never
born were born in the other; than most of them had children. Frankly,
there should be not much resemblance at all between the two universes of
people, since most of the same people wouldn't have been alive, wouldn't
exist, would never have made their contributions and differences. So
events would be largely different, as well as art and culture.
Same for the Klingons and Ferengi and Bajorans and everyone else. The
Bajorans couldn't be refugees on Federation worlds, because there were no
Federation worlds. The wars between these different groups would have
killed different people, and the political borders and developments are
again entirely different.
So it's difficult to see that Kira and Garak and Quark should even exist,
let alone wind up in the same place, let alone know each other. The odds
dictate that few of their parents or grand-parents, or who knows far back
their ancestors, should ever have met, let alone married and had children.
Heck, incidentally, in the Mirror Universe, who defeated V'Ger, and Nomad,
and the Giant Space Amoeba, and the Whale Folk, and the Kelvans, and the
Doomsday Machine, and the Borg, and all those other threats to the galaxy?
The message of "Mirror, Mirror," which Kirk made an Inspiring Speech about
at the conclusion, was that One Man Can Make A Difference. Well, either
she can, or she can't. The "Mirror" conceit tries to have it both ways,
and logically fails.
: The only major contrivance, as I saw it, were that *both* O'Brien and
: Sisko were there.
As I see it, it's all equally arbitrary. It's wildly unlikely that
O'Brian and Sisko would exist, let alone be within light years of each
other.
: It's when they started bringing in *all* of DS9's
: characters that it just became absurd. Was it absurd to begin with, even
: with just a small number together in the MU? Maybe.
I'm afraid that the situations are precisely identical: either so much is
different, or it isn't. If it's different -- and that's the postulate --
then the differences immediately begin multiplying, and they probably
increase exponentially, at least. That the Kirk Enterprises were so
similar made no sense, given the divergences of the universes -- as I
said, just for one question, how did Vulcan become so aggressive, and how
would Amanda and Sarek have a child, who happens to wind up on the
Enterprise with the Bad Kirk?, just for one micro-example of wild
implausibility.
It's only more impossible to have so many similarities 80 years later by
the time of Terok Nor. But impossible is impossible, really.
: But in "Crossover"
: at least, special attention was payed to making us believe these
: characters *could* turn out this way if life had presented them with these
: alternate fates.
I suggest that it is merely a matter of equally arbitrary suspension of
disbelief, and that these explanations hold no water otherwise. You
*want* to like "Crossover," and thus you're arguing for a completely
impossible "plausibility." Understandable, but I think you logically need
to simply say that "I like this story, even though it's logically
completely impossible to justify."
:> It's inconceivable as "making sense," save by writerly fiat. It's done
:> for the sake of fun, not because it makes any *sense*.
: Okay. But I think there is a certain point at which the audience might be
: willing to suspend disbelief and take it seriously; starting with "Through
: the Looking Glass," I don't think even that was possible.
Fine. But it's all a matter of equally arbitrary choices as to which you
*want* to accept, not a matter of actual logical "possible to take
seriously."
:> Right from "Mirror, Mirror," which was a complete romp for
:> all concerned. To retroactively consider to somehow have been Serious is
:> *bizarre*.
: I think you could argue that "Crossover" was the one divergence from the
: tone, if nothing else, of all the others. It treated its subject
: seriously, even if its subject wasn't a serious one.
Perhaps so.
Francis M'stein
wrote in article <36bfa478...@netnews.voicenet.com>:
My sentiments exactly.
Francis (To email, replace 'holland' with 'nl')
<- - - ->
Timo S Saloniemi
>I have trouble seeing this. The history of the Alpha Quadrant is wildly
>different in the two universes, and has been for at least a couple of
>centuries (perhaps far longer?). There was no Federation. The
>Cardassians hold a different place in political/military history, and the
>history of their political entity must have gone very differently.
>Countless hundreds of millions of Cardassians alive in one universe are
>dead in the other, or never lived; hundreds of millions who were never
>born were born in the other; than most of them had children. Frankly,
>there should be not much resemblance at all between the two universes of
>people, since most of the same people wouldn't have been alive, wouldn't
>exist, would never have made their contributions and differences. So
>events would be largely different, as well as art and culture.
>
>Same for the Klingons and Ferengi and Bajorans and everyone else. The
>Bajorans couldn't be refugees on Federation worlds, because there were no
>Federation worlds. The wars between these different groups would have
>killed different people, and the political borders and developments are
>again entirely different.
>
>So it's difficult to see that Kira and Garak and Quark should even exist,
>let alone wind up in the same place, let alone know each other. The odds
>dictate that few of their parents or grand-parents, or who knows far back
>their ancestors, should ever have met, let alone married and had children.
But if there really are an infinite number of alternate universes out there,
it would then be true that there would be a big number of universes where
there is an Alliance and a Rebellion and a Terok Nor, but where different
people fill the roles of the people we have seen - AND one or two universes
where through a coincidence the people happen to have the genetic makeup
of their regular-universe equivalents. The coincidence is of course huge
but *completely insignificant*, since obviously our heroes choose only the
one universe that closely matches the regular one when crossing over.
This "matching subroutine" is apparently part of the mechanism through
which the parallel universes interact.
>Heck, incidentally, in the Mirror Universe, who defeated V'Ger, and Nomad,
>and the Giant Space Amoeba, and the Whale Folk, and the Kelvans, and the
>Doomsday Machine, and the Borg, and all those other threats to the galaxy?
There is absolutely no reason to have a common history between the
universes - only a common *present*. It's of course a nice bonus to have
a Kirk and a Spock in the past of the "Crossover" universe as well,
but there is no reason to assume that this universe ever had a V'Ger
and a Nomad to begin with. Or if they did exist, they probably were
benevolent entities hired by the Terran Empire to blow up planets
for them, until the Alliance hired the Whale Probe to blow THEM
out of the sky. We have no evidence that V'Ger even existed at the
time of "Mirror, Mirror" and was on its way to Earth.
>The message of "Mirror, Mirror," which Kirk made an Inspiring Speech about
>at the conclusion, was that One Man Can Make A Difference. Well, either
>she can, or she can't. The "Mirror" conceit tries to have it both ways,
>and logically fails.
The mirror universes are just holodecks of a different variety. You can
pick one where you can make a difference, but the next time you cross
over, you probably end up in a slightly *different* parallel universe
and the difference has disappeared. Even Smiley O'Brien (or, more
exactly, the Smiley O'Briens) doesn't (don't) seem to know how to access
the SAME parallel universe all the time - sometimes there are cloaks in
the Smiley side, sometimes there aren't, so apparently there is some
inaccuracy in the process of crossing over.
>: The only major contrivance, as I saw it, were that *both* O'Brien and
>: Sisko were there.
>
>As I see it, it's all equally arbitrary. It's wildly unlikely that
>O'Brian and Sisko would exist, let alone be within light years of each
>other.
Yet the unlikeliness of this is not a factor in the actual crossing-over
*process*. You seem to end up in the parallel universe most closely matching
your own (as far as people are concerned), no matter how improbable
the configuration of that universe is.
>: It's when they started bringing in *all* of DS9's
>: characters that it just became absurd. Was it absurd to begin with, even
>: with just a small number together in the MU? Maybe.
>
>I'm afraid that the situations are precisely identical: either so much is
>different, or it isn't. If it's different -- and that's the postulate --
>then the differences immediately begin multiplying, and they probably
>increase exponentially, at least. That the Kirk Enterprises were so
>similar made no sense, given the divergences of the universes -- as I
>said, just for one question, how did Vulcan become so aggressive, and how
>would Amanda and Sarek have a child, who happens to wind up on the
>Enterprise with the Bad Kirk?, just for one micro-example of wild
>implausibility.
You can't argue that "Mirror, Mirror" was implausible because development
was too parallel - because "Mirror, Mirror" was the FIRST peek into
this parallel world. There is absolutely no reason to assume that the
history PRIOR to the point of crossing over was similar in the two
universes - for example, there might never have been a planet
Vulcan in the other universe, and Spock could have been a Rigel V
or Mintaka inhabitant with a brutal and violent nature. Or then
Surak might never have existed.
>It's only more impossible to have so many similarities 80 years later by
>the time of Terok Nor. But impossible is impossible, really.
Not really. "Crossover" claims that it's a follow-up to "Mirror, Mirror",
which means that there WERE 80 years of parallel development in
between. This means we have infinitely less freedom for creating
the genetic mix that produces a womal looking like Nana Visitor with
nose wrinkles. OTOH, there are literally infinite possibilities to create
people who look like Shatner, Nimoy-with-earpoints and Kelley for
"Mirror, Mirror" since nothing at all is established about the universe
that preceded that episode.
"Mirror, Mirror" as a standalone is plausible if one accepts that parallel
universes can be accessed. Any *followup* is implausible as hell even given
the first assumption, unless one says each followup episode also presents a
standalone universe that just happens to resemble the previous ones. That
takes us back to square one, where everything is possible if the parallel-
universe accessing is possible.
Timo Saloniemi
Gary Farber
[. . .]
: But if there really are an infinite number of alternate universes out there,
: it would then be true that there would be a big number of universes where
: there is an Alliance and a Rebellion and a Terok Nor, but where different
: people fill the roles of the people we have seen - AND one or two universes
: where through a coincidence the people happen to have the genetic makeup
: of their regular-universe equivalents. The coincidence is of course huge
: but *completely insignificant*, since obviously our heroes choose only the
: one universe that closely matches the regular one when crossing over.
: This "matching subroutine" is apparently part of the mechanism through
: which the parallel universes interact.
I'm not going to quote the rest of the text in which you outline your
elaborate theory, Timo, in this, and other posts, but I have to
congratulate you: mildly convoluted as it is, your theory is certainly far
and away the best attempt I've yet seen to make sense of the "Mirror
universe" scenario. It pushes the limits of plausibility considerably,
but it has a certain logic, and seems reasonably self-consistent; this is
more than I can say for any other attempt to explain the "Mirror universe"
that I've ever seen.
I doubt in the extreme that any of the producers or writers ever thought
of it, but I might suggest they adapt it, absent coming up with a better
explanation themselves.
[. . . .]