[DS9] Lynch's Spoiler Review: "Sacrifice of Angels"
Hiero Bosch
>
>For instance, one can look at the somewhat bizarre scene between Odo
>and the Founder, where she tells Odo that she's having Kira executed
>so that Odo will be free of her. Excuse me? Is this the same Founder
>who managed to play on Odo's feelings so perfectly several times
>before? If she really felt Kira's execution was in Odo's best interests,
>she wouldn't have warned him in advance of it; she wouldn't have
>told him about it at all until she'd *done* it. Then Odo might have felt
>that his choices were being removed, but since he really wouldn't
>have been able to do anything about it, he probably would have been
>drawn back into the Link -- and would have truly gone back to his
>people. As it is, we got the chance to see Odo "redeem" himself and
>be forgiven -- but if the Founders had possessed an ounce of brains,
>Odo would have stayed put, Kira and Rom would never have gotten
>to the computer, and Dukat would have managed to destroy the
>Defiant before it ever entered the wormhole.
>
>(The depressing thing is that there was another way to have Odo find
>out. Weyoun came in later to take the Founders into more secure
>areas, after Kira escaped. Had Odo found out *then* that Kira had
>been captured and slated for execution, he could have been outraged at
>her plight *and* at the deception -- and rather than the Founder being
>the one who turned stupid, it would simply have been Weyoun not
>quite considering all the ramifications of his statements, which is far
>more intelligent.)
You're spending a lot of time on a very minor point. Maybe the Founder
thought it was best to be honest with Odo. I agree it was a confusing point
but with so much else going on, there's just bigger fish to fry.
>
>The second example of "villain idiocy" came very near the end. Once
>the Defiant came back out of the wormhole and it became clear the
>reinforcements weren't going to show up, everyone decides to
>evacuate the station (or, as Weyoun so marvelously put it, "time to
>start packing!"). All well and good so far. However, even without
>reinforcements, they still have a gigantic fleet -- remember, the one
>that outnumbered the Federation fleet two to one? Even given the
>morale blow of losing DS9 and the help from the Klingons, there's no
>reason why the Dominion can't continue the war and work on a near-
>immediate re-seizure of DS9. After all, let's remember that the Alpha
>Quadrant supply of "white" has been destroyed -- the Dominion
>*needs* access to the wormhole if they're going to survive in this part
>of the galaxy at all. The jump from "time to abandon the station" to
>"time to pull everything back to Cardassian space" was way too
>severe. Maybe the Founders were just cautious -- but the Cardassians >are
not, and either Dukat or Damar should have made a serious
>protest.
Well, that's true but they also just lost the battle thanks to the Klingons,
and they announced 200 Fed ships were approaching the station. Yeah, they
could have tried to retake it, but somehow I don't think it would have
worked. At that point Ketracel White wouldn't have mattered.
>
>Then, of course, there's the entire sequence of Quark and Ziyal
>freeing the prisoners; no, thank you. The Cardassian guard should
>have refused to let Quark and Ziyal come anywhere near him,
>particularly without bringing a second person into the room, and the
>Jem'Hadar Quark threatened should have shot on sight, or potentially
>shrouded themselves -- you know, that thing they can do that adds to
>their formidability? Quark single-handedly taking out two Jem'Hadar
>is possibly the least realistic victory I've seen since Worf lost to two
>Ferengi *even with the advantage of surprise* in TNG's "Rascals".
>
That's good and nice but Quark also could have shot them as he entered.
They just dragged the scene out, that's all. Really not a major issue.
recook77
Timothy W. Lynch <tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu> wrote in article
<645tod$o...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>...
(snip)
>
> For instance, one can look at the somewhat bizarre scene between Odo
> and the Founder, where she tells Odo that she's having Kira executed
> so that Odo will be free of her. Excuse me? Is this the same Founder
> who managed to play on Odo's feelings so perfectly several times
> before? If she really felt Kira's execution was in Odo's best interests,
> she wouldn't have warned him in advance of it; she wouldn't have
> told him about it at all until she'd *done* it. Then Odo might have felt
> that his choices were being removed, but since he really wouldn't
> have been able to do anything about it, he probably would have been
> drawn back into the Link -- and would have truly gone back to his
> people. As it is, we got the chance to see Odo "redeem" himself and
> be forgiven -- but if the Founders had possessed an ounce of brains,
> Odo would have stayed put, Kira and Rom would never have gotten
> to the computer, and Dukat would have managed to destroy the
> Defiant before it ever entered the wormhole.
I have an explanation: the female Founder probably believed that Odo was so
completely under her thumb (remember, he said that the Feddies *used* to be
his friends) that she thought nothing of telling him. She underestimated
the feelings he still had for Kira.
If the writers are smart, they won't sweep this under the carpet. I've
heard that Odo eventually is made to atone for what he did, and I certainly
hope he does.
I think what doomed the Dominion and Cardassians--first and foremost--was
their own arrogance.
(Tim's excellent points snipped)
Timothy W. Lynch
WARNING: Abandon all hope of remaining unspoiled, ye who enter
here: "Sacrifice of Angels" spoilers lie below.
In brief: The epitome of frustration: many things done and done well,
but many things undone or turned completely back.
======
Written by: Ira Steven Behr & Hans Beimler
Directed by: Allan Kroeker
Brief summary: The Defiant battles through enemy lines in an attempt
to reach Deep Space Nine before the wormhole can be reopened, only
to find ... but that would be telling.
======
The term "reset button" has come into such common usage among
SFTV fans that I'm afraid to use it; it feels like a cliche. Nevertheless,
that's the immediate phrase that comes to mind after seeing "Sacrifice
of Angels" -- although a couple of changes were made, so few of the
changes hinted at over the past several weeks survived the story's end
that I can't help but feel extremely ... well, extremely *cheated*, and
almost misled by earlier events, and misled in ways that aren't fair to
the viewer.
The regular character who underwent the greatest change over the
course of the six weeks was Odo, and I found the Odo arc in "Behind
the Lines" to be easily one of the single most compelling features of
this entire war-against-the-Dominion storyline. In a single hour, Odo
transformed from the resistance's greatest hope into its greatest fear,
and all without a single shred of ill intent on his part; he was just so
obsessed with *belonging*, with being able to find others like him,
that he fell in over his head.
That was challenging. That was, quite frankly, pretty damned
groundbreaking stuff for DS9 -- and given the chain of events it set in
motion, it should have had major repercussions for Odo and for how
everybody viewed him.
Now? Well, it's perhaps too soon to be able to judge with any real
certainty, but based on the aftermath of Odo saving the day it appears
that all of that has been excised from reality with a single sweep of a
writer's pen. No recriminations, no repercussions, no consequences
-- just a quick "the Link was paradise, but it appears I'm not ready for
paradise", and Kira *accepts* that. Will Sisko and company even
*find out* how Odo's dithering nearly doomed the Alpha Quadrant? I
sure hope so, but after "Sacrifice of Angels" I'm not feeling
particularly hopeful.
"Sacrifice of Angels" had three main frustrations; the first was Odo.
The second was the Federation's victory in the war. No, not the fact
that the good guys won; I'm not *that* big of a curmudgeon, and it
was certainly a foregone conclusion that Sisko would be back in his
office eventually. The problem I have here is the *way* in which they
won.
That doesn't even mean I object to the nearly literal _deus ex machina_
way in which the Dominion reinforcements were removed from the
picture. It was certainly somewhat annoying, particularly since Sisko
didn't seem to think in advance of *asking* the Prophets to do
something, which he probably should have done -- but when all is
said and done, the Prophets *are* an integral part of DS9 and
particularly of the wormhole, so having them remove the
reinforcements is somewhat plausible, and certainly an awful lot better
than having O'Brien crank up some magic-tech solution.
The problem I have with Sisko's victory is that it didn't come about
because he and the Federation were smart, or because they managed to
effectively exploit the flaws of the Cardassian/Dominion alliance. The
reason Sisko and company won is that their principal adversaries
turned into rank idiots overnight -- and *that* is simply bad plotting.
For instance, one can look at the somewhat bizarre scene between Odo
and the Founder, where she tells Odo that she's having Kira executed
so that Odo will be free of her. Excuse me? Is this the same Founder
who managed to play on Odo's feelings so perfectly several times
before? If she really felt Kira's execution was in Odo's best interests,
she wouldn't have warned him in advance of it; she wouldn't have
told him about it at all until she'd *done* it. Then Odo might have felt
that his choices were being removed, but since he really wouldn't
have been able to do anything about it, he probably would have been
drawn back into the Link -- and would have truly gone back to his
people. As it is, we got the chance to see Odo "redeem" himself and
be forgiven -- but if the Founders had possessed an ounce of brains,
Odo would have stayed put, Kira and Rom would never have gotten
to the computer, and Dukat would have managed to destroy the
Defiant before it ever entered the wormhole.
(The depressing thing is that there was another way to have Odo find
out. Weyoun came in later to take the Founders into more secure
areas, after Kira escaped. Had Odo found out *then* that Kira had
been captured and slated for execution, he could have been outraged at
her plight *and* at the deception -- and rather than the Founder being
the one who turned stupid, it would simply have been Weyoun not
quite considering all the ramifications of his statements, which is far
more intelligent.)
The second example of "villain idiocy" came very near the end. Once
the Defiant came back out of the wormhole and it became clear the
reinforcements weren't going to show up, everyone decides to
evacuate the station (or, as Weyoun so marvelously put it, "time to
start packing!"). All well and good so far. However, even without
reinforcements, they still have a gigantic fleet -- remember, the one
that outnumbered the Federation fleet two to one? Even given the
morale blow of losing DS9 and the help from the Klingons, there's no
reason why the Dominion can't continue the war and work on a near-
immediate re-seizure of DS9. After all, let's remember that the Alpha
Quadrant supply of "white" has been destroyed -- the Dominion
*needs* access to the wormhole if they're going to survive in this part
of the galaxy at all. The jump from "time to abandon the station" to
"time to pull everything back to Cardassian space" was way too
severe. Maybe the Founders were just cautious -- but the Cardassians
are not, and either Dukat or Damar should have made a serious
protest.
Then, of course, there's the entire sequence of Quark and Ziyal
freeing the prisoners; no, thank you. The Cardassian guard should
have refused to let Quark and Ziyal come anywhere near him,
particularly without bringing a second person into the room, and the
Jem'Hadar Quark threatened should have shot on sight, or potentially
shrouded themselves -- you know, that thing they can do that adds to
their formidability? Quark single-handedly taking out two Jem'Hadar
is possibly the least realistic victory I've seen since Worf lost to two
Ferengi *even with the advantage of surprise* in TNG's "Rascals".
The final frustration is more a reflection on the arc than it is on
"Sacrifice of Angels" in particular -- but given that it's the closing
segment of the arc, it gets the brunt of the grief. Given the challenges
faced by Our Heroes during the war, and given the title of the war's
closing chapter, I think viewers can legitimately expect that
*something* of serious value needs to be sacrificed if the good guys
are going to be able to win. Think back to past Trek: in the second
film, Kirk defeated Khan, but at the cost of his dearest friend. In the
third film, Kirk regained Spock -- but at the cost of his ship and his
son. In "Yesterday's Enterprise", history was restored -- but at the
cost of a ship and all lives aboard, including Tasha Yar. (No
comments about Sela, please; there it was the *viewers* who were
asked to sacrifice. :-) ) In DS9's "Duet", Kira starts realizing that
simply being Cardassian is not a war crime -- but it takes the death of
a good and decent man to help her reach that realization. In DS9's
second season, the Circle is broken and a Bajoran civil war is averted,
but at the cost of the very hero Kira hoped would be her world's
salvation. The list goes on.
In this six-part arc, what did the heroes lose? Some sleep, certainly,
and we were told that the Federation lost many valued lives -- but
what did *we* get to see of that sacrifice? The two people who lost
the most here were Dukat and Ziyal -- and frankly, Ziyal was so
erratically written that her sacrifice didn't feel like a meaningful one to
me. Kira didn't lose her self-respect, Odo didn't lose Kira (or so it's
been implied), Sisko didn't lose Jake ... no one had their entire world-
view changed by this change of situation. That, more than anything
else, feels *wrong* to me, and feels like a reset button. Aside from
the fact that Garak won't have someone hanging on his arm and Dukat
is no longer leading Cardassia, I almost feel that the whole story was
an interesting exercise on the part of the writers and nothing more. I
shouldn't have to feel that way, and after all the promise we saw in
last year's finale and the first four parts of this season (excluding
"Sons and Daughters"), I really feel cheated.
That doesn't mean "Sacrifice of Angels" was totally without merit,
however. Its greatest strength, I think, was in the handling of Dukat.
I said earlier that the heroes won because the villains were stupid, but
Dukat's sin wasn't so much stupidity as it was arrogance. For Dukat,
that works beautifully: Dukat has always felt he was destined for
greatness, and his explanation to Weyoun that the only true victory is
one where your enemies are forced to realize the essential wrongness
of ever having opposed you in the first place was an absolute joy to
behold. As a result, his near-total belief that the battle was already
won blinded him to the risk Sisko represented, and his willingness to
let Sisko get close enough to see his loss first-hand felt totally
realistic. His subsequent crumbling in the face of defeat almost hurt to
watch, but mostly because Dukat's been such an effectively realized
character that it felt like we were losing a friend. Dukat wandering the
Promenade, nearly oblivious to all around him was a marvelous scene
(if quite brief), and despite my feeling that Ziyal's death was
unnecessary, it proved an effective final straw to send Dukat into
catatonia. I imagine we're going to see Dukat again, but I'm not sure
in what way I'd want to; having him somehow get back to his old self
will feel like a betrayal of one of the arc's major successes.
"Sacrifice of Angels" also did a good job in other ways. The cross-
cutting between the Defiant getting ever closer to DS9, while Rom
works to disable the station's weapons, while Dukat awaits his
ultimate triumph, was real edge-of-the-seat material in a lot of ways;
even knowing from previews that the Defiant was going to end up in
the wormhole didn't seem to matter much, as I wanted to see exactly
how it turned out that way. Both the effects and the editing in the
Defiant's battle sequences were also top-notch; things have come a
long way in the last few years, and the Battle of Four Fleets (tm)
certainly showed it, with things happening in so many different places
that it was difficult to keep up. (And, of course, the effect of the
minefield going poof was at least as effective as the shot showing it
starting up back in "Call to Arms".)
The use of the Prophets was also reasonable, though not quite on the
level of their previous appearances in "Emissary" and "Accession".
(It was eons ahead of "Prophet Motive", however; of course, it's not
tough to beat playing straight man in an all-Ferengi story.) On the
negative side, having Sisko manage to convince the Prophets to take
action by dint of a good speech really didn't feel right; it's making the
Prophets seem too humanoid and too comprehensible, unlike the ones
we saw in "Emissary". On the plus side, the taste of menace in their
statement that Sisko "will find no rest" on Bajor was nicely
foreboding, the constant references to Sisko's life in terms of "the
game" hearkened back to earlier conversations very effectively, and
the entire sequence felt nicely eerie. (One of the best moments was
seeing the Prophets take the shape of *Weyoun* when they said "We
are of Bajor"; talk about cognitive dissonance...)
On the whole, though, I have to say that I found "Sacrifice of Angels"
pretty disappointing. As the last part of a major story, it should be a
roller-coaster ride -- but it should not be a roller-coaster ride between
"wow!" and "no, that's stupid!", and it shouldn't be a roller-coaster
ride at the expense of characterization. In the end, the arc made a lot
of promises and kept very few -- and that's frustrating. I give
everyone involved a lot of credit for trying to do something different,
but I get the feeling that no one quite knew how to end it. Sigh.
Other, shorter thoughts:
-- I particularly liked the use of Tennyson's "Charge of the Light
Brigade" early on in the show; it encapsulated the moment nicely.
(And thanks to Roger Noe for reminding me what the poem was; I
knew I recognized it, but the exact title was slipping my mind.)
-- It felt a little off to have the Prophets take the form of *Damar*; he
was an integral part of the show and the story, yes, but he's not
someone *Sisko* would realize as such, and Sisko's the one they
were trying to communicate with.
-- Speaking of Damar, I kind of wonder at this point what's going to
become of him. Is there *anyone* who doesn't want him dead now?
-- Some might think Odo was able to leave his room too easily; I
don't. Remember, the Founder said that Odo was more important to
the Founders than the Alpha Quadrant; as such, I don't think she
particularly cared whether he successfully opposed them so much as
she did the fact that he *chose* to. Weyoun might have thought of it,
but he's never been one to oppose a Founder.
-- Jake turned into a cipher as these six weeks have unfolded, and I'm
not sure Bashir ever rose above that status. Exactly what was the
point of having Jake on the station? (Don't tell me it was to get the
information to Sisko; if that's the only point, *Quark* could have
done that somehow.)
-- "Have you ever been diagnosed as anhedonic?" Now there's a
word you don't hear every day ... but it's a delicious insult. :-)
-- The imagery of the baseball was marvelous throughout the entire
show, and it seems only fair that the show end with Sisko holding it
again.
-- "The Sisko is belligerent." "Aggressive." "Adversarial." It's
interesting which characters the Prophets chose to speak through
when they made those three pronouncements. (I also liked their use
of Odo to dismiss Sisko's concerns as "a corporeal matter.")
That about covers it. I feel like I'm being awfully hard on "Sacrifice
of Angels", but I see it as something like this: I'm a teacher, and
when I see someone who should be getting A's coming up with B's
and B-'s, it's frustrating. This arc had an awful lot of potential -- and
although much was done and done successfully, so much was taken
back later or left undone that I came away feeling disappointed.
Perhaps later episodes will ease that feeling -- but for now, it's there.
So, wrapping up:
Writing: Not enough sacrifice, not enough intelligence, and not
enough follow-through.
Directing: No problems here.
Acting: I felt that a couple of Sisko's speeches (particularly to the
Prophets) felt a bit stilted, but everyone else was fine.
OVERALL: A 6, for effort more than anything else. I'm not at all
sure how this will age; it may jump up, or it may plummet. Consider
that a very temporary rating.
NEXT WEEK:
Break out the Klingon blood-champagne: it's wedding time.
Tim Lynch (Harvard-Westlake School, Science Dept.)
tly...@alumni.caltech.edu <*>
"A true victory is to make your enemy see they were wrong to oppose
you in the first place!"
-- Dukat
--
Copyright 1997, Timothy W. Lynch. All rights reserved, but feel free to ask...
This article is explicitly prohibited from being used in any off-net
compilation without due attribution and *express written consent of the
author*. Walnut Creek and other CD-ROM distributors, take note.
Thomas j. Evans
tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) wrote:
>WARNING: Abandon all hope of remaining unspoiled, ye who enter
>here: "Sacrifice of Angels" spoilers lie below.
>
>In brief: The epitome of frustration: many things done and done well,
>but many things undone or turned completely back.
>
I've been skimming Lynch's reviews here and there and each and every
single time, I totally and completely disagree with his points. Hey,
guess what, there's a first time for everything...
>given the chain of events it set in motion, it should have had major
>repercussions for Odo and for how everybody viewed him.
>Now? Well, it's perhaps too soon to be able to judge with any real
>certainty, but based on the aftermath of Odo saving the day it appears
>that all of that has been excised from reality with a single sweep of a
>writer's pen. No recriminations, no repercussions, no consequences
>-- just a quick "the Link was paradise, but it appears I'm not ready for
>paradise", and Kira *accepts* that. Will Sisko and company even
>*find out* how Odo's dithering nearly doomed the Alpha Quadrant? I
>sure hope so, but after "Sacrifice of Angels" I'm not feeling
>particularly hopeful.
"It's only a matter of time". Those are the words of the Founder at
the end of the episode, when asked about Odo joining them. I don't
remember seeing DS9 leave a thread of this size dangling (Bashir's
genetic engineering will come up again this season). Eventually,
large revelations come up again and the loose ends are tied. I'm not
expecting to see any development over the next few weeks, but the
words of the Founder at the end of the episode after Weyoun asks if
Odo is coming has managed to assure me that this loose end will
eventually be tied:
"No. But he will join us one day. It's only a matter of time."
>For instance, one can look at the somewhat bizarre scene between Odo
>and the Founder, where she tells Odo that she's having Kira executed
>so that Odo will be free of her. Excuse me? Is this the same Founder
>who managed to play on Odo's feelings so perfectly several times
>before? If she really felt Kira's execution was in Odo's best interests,
>she wouldn't have warned him in advance of it; she wouldn't have
>told him about it at all until she'd *done* it. Then Odo might have felt
>that his choices were being removed, but since he really wouldn't
>have been able to do anything about it, he probably would have been
>drawn back into the Link -- and would have truly gone back to his
>people. As it is, we got the chance to see Odo "redeem" himself and
>be forgiven -- but if the Founders had possessed an ounce of brains,
>Odo would have stayed put, Kira and Rom would never have gotten
>to the computer, and Dukat would have managed to destroy the
>Defiant before it ever entered the wormhole.
Well, we certainly couldn't have that happen, could we?
>(The depressing thing is that there was another way to have Odo find
>out. Weyoun came in later to take the Founders into more secure
>areas, after Kira escaped. Had Odo found out *then* that Kira had
>been captured and slated for execution, he could have been outraged at
>her plight *and* at the deception -- and rather than the Founder being
>the one who turned stupid, it would simply have been Weyoun not
>quite considering all the ramifications of his statements, which is far
>more intelligent.)
That's a really good point. That would have worked a lot better. I
didn't find the fact that the Founder told him about Kira to be too
annoying. I figured that she believed Odo was removed from the solids
enough for the information to go over a little better. And, from her
actions and the way she spoke to Odo, I have a feeling the Founder was
confident that there was no way for Odo to do anything about it
anyway. She certainly didn't expect Quark to break Kira out of her
cell (especially since it's theoretically impossible)...
>Then, of course, there's the entire sequence of Quark and Ziyal
>freeing the prisoners; no, thank you. The Cardassian guard should
>have refused to let Quark and Ziyal come anywhere near him,
>particularly without bringing a second person into the room, and the
>Jem'Hadar Quark threatened should have shot on sight, or potentially
>shrouded themselves -- you know, that thing they can do that adds to
>their formidability? Quark single-handedly taking out two Jem'Hadar
>is possibly the least realistic victory I've seen since Worf lost to two
>Ferengi *even with the advantage of surprise* in TNG's "Rascals".
I also question where the hell Ziyal aquired a hypo-spray with deadly
poisons ("Excuse me, could I just borrow this hypo-spray full of
toxins for a few minutes... thanks."). Or where Quark managed to find
a couple of phasers. I'm sure the Dominion/Cardassian alliance allows
*all* of their Ferengi bartenders keep a couple deadly weapons behind
the counter for emergency situations... Yeah, right.
>In this six-part arc, what did the heroes lose? Some sleep, certainly,
>and we were told that the Federation lost many valued lives -- but
>what did *we* get to see of that sacrifice? The two people who lost
>the most here were Dukat and Ziyal -- and frankly, Ziyal was so
>erratically written that her sacrifice didn't feel like a meaningful one to
>me. Kira didn't lose her self-respect, Odo didn't lose Kira (or so it's
>been implied), Sisko didn't lose Jake ... no one had their entire world-
>view changed by this change of situation.
Actually, I think that sacrifice will make itself apparant later on.
If you recall, during Sisko's encounter with the Prophets, they
mention that a "penance must be exacted" on Sisko for trying to
"control the game". The scene is, of course, very cryptic, and we
don't know exactly what's going to happen to Sisko. But it would seem
that this is the sacrifice that results from the war. We're going to
have to wait for that one too.
>Dukat wandering the Promenade, nearly oblivious to all around him
>was a marvelous scene (if quite brief)
Yes, this breif scene was a very nice bit of directing by Allan
Kroeker - the camera follows two Jem'Hadar soldiers walking along the
upper level of the promenade with Dukat in the picture watching them
from the lower level. Nice shot.
>and despite my feeling that Ziyal's death was unnecessary, it proved
>an effective final straw to send Dukat into catatonia.
Ziyal has been more of a tool for poking and proding at Dukat and his
relationship with Kira than anything else. She hasn't really been
developed as a character. Since her Death could bring about some very
interesting changes for Dukat, Kira, Garak, and the relationships
between all of them - I'm perfectly fine with it. I think by now, the
writers have done all they can with her as a tool (a living one
anyway). I just hope that the writers get all they can out of the
effect of her death.
>I imagine we're going to see Dukat again, but I'm not sure
>in what way I'd want to; having him somehow get back to his old self
>will feel like a betrayal of one of the arc's major successes.
I seriously doubt he will return to the Dominion. I think it's pretty
clear that Damar is going to assume Dukat's position in the
Dominion/Cardassian alliance. This raises conflict between Dukat and
the Cardassian government itself, since he certainly isn't going to
stand beside Damar anymore. This conflict, added to Dukat's
consistant bitterness toward the Dominon, puts him into an interesting
position. It would seem that, if he does regain his marbles which I
believe he will eventually, the most likely place for him to be is
fighting on the side of the Federation. Hey, we've seen it before.
>Both the effects and the editing in the
>Defiant's battle sequences were also top-notch; things have come a
>long way in the last few years, and the Battle of Four Fleets (tm)
>certainly showed it, with things happening in so many different places
>that it was difficult to keep up. (And, of course, the effect of the
>minefield going poof was at least as effective as the shot showing it
>starting up back in "Call to Arms".)
Definitaly. The effects in "Sacrifice of Angels" was easily some of
the best I've seen in Trek. In fact, I found most of it more visually
stunning than First Contact. Especially those maneuverable attack
fighters - really cool looking stuff.
>Other, shorter thoughts:
>-- I particularly liked the use of Tennyson's "Charge of the Light
>Brigade" early on in the show; it encapsulated the moment nicely.
>(And thanks to Roger Noe for reminding me what the poem was; I
>knew I recognized it, but the exact title was slipping my mind.)
Actually, I found that somewhat annoying. Perhaps as a teacher (and I
would assume English or English Lit. is the subject), you can
appreciate it's inclusion. Perhaps it was just the timing, but
somehow seeing crew members go off on a recitation of poetry at a
critical moment of battle is a bit distracting. It's like seeing a
man running from a bear stop to admire a flower.
>-- Speaking of Damar, I kind of wonder at this point what's going to
>become of him. Is there *anyone* who doesn't want him dead now?
Weyoun? Like I said, he'll probably assume power on the Cardassian
side of the Dominion. Also, he's shown even more contempt toward the
Dominion than Dukat. He'd be the first to lead the Cardassians to
betray them.
>-- Jake turned into a cipher as these six weeks have unfolded, and I'm
>not sure Bashir ever rose above that status. Exactly what was the
>point of having Jake on the station? (Don't tell me it was to get the
>information to Sisko; if that's the only point, *Quark* could have
>done that somehow.)
Didn't think of that. Good point. It was probably done to make Sisko
even more determined to regain the station.
>-- The imagery of the baseball was marvelous throughout the entire
>show, and it seems only fair that the show end with Sisko holding it
>again.
Definitaly. The scene where Dukat drops the baseball on the floor as
he's talking about Sisko, and when he returns the ball to Sisko with
the words, "I forgive you, too": excellent.
>That about covers it. I feel like I'm being awfully hard on "Sacrifice
>of Angels", but I see it as something like this: I'm a teacher, and
>when I see someone who should be getting A's coming up with B's
>and B-'s, it's frustrating.
Well, as a student, I'll take a B over a C anyday. I still kick
myself for the mistakes I made, but I prefer to look at the bright
side.
>This arc had an awful lot of potential -- and although much was done
>and done successfully, so much was taken back later or left undone
>that I came away feeling disappointed. Perhaps later episodes will
>ease that feeling -- but for now, it's there.
I think people are taking the "end of the arc" as the end of a chapter
of DS9 or something. The show will go on and there are still many
loose ends that will most definitaly be tied in time. The show does
go on and just because this ends the arc, doesn't mean everything that
was developed is going to be removed from the writer's minds.
-T
Lasher
Thomas j. Evans <tho...@skyweb.net> wrote in article
<6464je$brd$1...@usenet48.supernews.com>...
> tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) wrote:
>
>
> That's a really good point. That would have worked a lot better. I
> didn't find the fact that the Founder told him about Kira to be too
> annoying. I figured that she believed Odo was removed from the solids
> enough for the information to go over a little better. And, from her
> actions and the way she spoke to Odo, I have a feeling the Founder was
> confident that there was no way for Odo to do anything about it
> anyway.
I think it's a mixture of arrogance and idiocy on her part. This is a
woman whose race observes the smallest detail of objects and organisms to
better mimic them and she can't see the conflict brewing on Odo's face?
On the other hand, she desperately wanted Odo to return to the Great Link
for good. She was probably also latching on to whatever encouraging
signals she got from him. At one point in this episode (exactly one
point, for 5 seconds), I was wondering about his loyalties too. Those
people fighting and dying who "*used* to be my friends"...
> >-- Jake turned into a cipher as these six weeks have unfolded, and I'm
> >not sure Bashir ever rose above that status. Exactly what was the
> >point of having Jake on the station? (Don't tell me it was to get the
> >information to Sisko; if that's the only point, *Quark* could have
> >done that somehow.)
>
> Didn't think of that. Good point. It was probably done to make Sisko
> even more determined to regain the station.
Oh, but so much more could have been done. What if Jake had become a
Dominion-approved "war correspondent" just so he could sneak some sort of
underlying story out (like a mini "Mother Night"). He certainly wouldn't
be a favorite with a lot of people when the Feds returned. Just imagine
the dramatic benefit you could have gotten from the Jake/Nog dynamic
alone! Arrgh!
I would expect some sort of change in their relationship anyway. Given
Sisko's growing opinion of Nog and the times they spent together, I would
think there would be some underlying jealousy on Jake's part. Doubt we'll
see that either, though.
>
> >This arc had an awful lot of potential -- and although much was done
> >and done successfully, so much was taken back later or left undone
> >that I came away feeling disappointed. Perhaps later episodes will
> >ease that feeling -- but for now, it's there.
>
> I think people are taking the "end of the arc" as the end of a chapter
> of DS9 or something. The show will go on and there are still many
> loose ends that will most definitaly be tied in time. The show does
> go on and just because this ends the arc, doesn't mean everything that
> was developed is going to be removed from the writer's minds.
I never considered this a "Dominion war arc". Everything I heard before
the season premier was described in the terms of when Sisko would reclaim
the station. This wasn't a war arc, so much as an occupation arc, but I
don't think a lot of other people thought of it that way. That's probably
why the pullback didn't bother me as much. We'll see the Dominion again,
we'll definitely see Dukat again, and we'll almost definitely see the
Prophets' penance exacted on Sisko at some point in time.
And Dumar? Do you think any alliance with him leading one of the parties
is going to work? He hates non-Cardassians way too much to see the
political realities of the situation. I think it highly likely that Dumar
push the Dominion too far, and force the Dominion to conquer Cardassia.
That would be pretty interesting, if it happened.
However, I agree with Tim on this point. If everyone is all right with
Odo after all that's happened, I'm going to be really, really pissed.
--
return address altered, use address shown below
/=================================================\
"Statistics can be twisted around to mean
anything. 14% of all people know that!"
---Homer Simpson
\=================================================/
Lasher >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> las...@netwave.net
jsm...@imap1.asu.edu
Timothy W. Lynch (tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu) wrote:
: WARNING: Abandon all hope of remaining unspoiled, ye who enter
: Now? Well, it's perhaps too soon to be able to judge with any real
: certainty, but based on the aftermath of Odo saving the day it appears
: that all of that has been excised from reality with a single sweep of a
: writer's pen. No recriminations, no repercussions, no consequences
: -- just a quick "the Link was paradise, but it appears I'm not ready for
: paradise", and Kira *accepts* that. Will Sisko and company even
: *find out* how Odo's dithering nearly doomed the Alpha Quadrant? I
: sure hope so, but after "Sacrifice of Angels" I'm not feeling
: particularly hopeful.
I think it is premature to judge at this point. It wasn't exactly, as Odo
points out, the time to discuss his "return to the Light Side" in depth,
nor for Kira to bitch him out about it, and we didn't really have time to
see what happened at the end of the episode. The real telling point will
come in their discussion in future episodes. I did like the way Odo said,
"I think you know why" (alluding to his love for Kira) when she asked him
why he returned.
: The problem I have with Sisko's victory is that it didn't come about
: because he and the Federation were smart, or because they managed to
: effectively exploit the flaws of the Cardassian/Dominion alliance. The
: reason Sisko and company won is that their principal adversaries
: turned into rank idiots overnight -- and *that* is simply bad plotting.
I didn't find the overconfidence on the part of the enemy nearly as
unbelievable as in many other, similar stories that have been done over
the years. There was really no reason *not* to believe that they didn't
have things tied up in a neat little bundle.
I'm still upset that the Romulans didn't make an appearance, though... :(
: The second example of "villain idiocy" came very near the end. Once
: the Defiant came back out of the wormhole and it became clear the
: reinforcements weren't going to show up, everyone decides to
: evacuate the station (or, as Weyoun so marvelously put it, "time to
: start packing!"). All well and good so far. However, even without
: reinforcements, they still have a gigantic fleet -- remember, the one
: that outnumbered the Federation fleet two to one? Even given the
: morale blow of losing DS9 and the help from the Klingons, there's no
: reason why the Dominion can't continue the war and work on a near-
: immediate re-seizure of DS9. After all, let's remember that the Alpha
: Quadrant supply of "white" has been destroyed -- the Dominion
: *needs* access to the wormhole if they're going to survive in this part
: of the galaxy at all. The jump from "time to abandon the station" to
: "time to pull everything back to Cardassian space" was way too
: severe. Maybe the Founders were just cautious -- but the Cardassians
: are not, and either Dukat or Damar should have made a serious
: protest.
Would you want to screw around with the ship that, seemingly
singlehandedly, destroyed 2800 or so fighters from the Gamma Quadrant?
Not me.
: Then, of course, there's the entire sequence of Quark and Ziyal
: freeing the prisoners; no, thank you. The Cardassian guard should
: have refused to let Quark and Ziyal come anywhere near him,
: particularly without bringing a second person into the room, and the
: Jem'Hadar Quark threatened should have shot on sight, or potentially
: shrouded themselves -- you know, that thing they can do that adds to
: their formidability? Quark single-handedly taking out two Jem'Hadar
: is possibly the least realistic victory I've seen since Worf lost to two
: Ferengi *even with the advantage of surprise* in TNG's "Rascals".
Did you see the scene where Dukat explodes in rage at Dumar when he
suggests Ziyal might be a traitor? Those Cardies aren't likely to just up
and simiss Ziyal as if she didn't exist. Again, I found this far more
plausible than similar stories I've seen do the same thing.
: -- Speaking of Damar, I kind of wonder at this point what's going to
: become of him. Is there *anyone* who doesn't want him dead now?
Anyone want to bet that he becomes the new head of the Cardassian Empire?
As far as notable moments, I rather enjoyed Weyoun's last look around
DS9. There was a lot going on with the character there, particularly in
light of the interesting character development we've seen of him recently
(his discussions of artistic appreciation, etc.)
--
------------------------
Cthuludrew, the Great Old One
(aka Andrew Theisen, mild mannered *former* college student)
"Actions have consequences."
URL- http://www.public.asu.edu/~jsmill
wat...@cableinet.net
On 10 Nov 1997 03:56:16 GMT, "recook77" <reco...@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
>
>
>Timothy W. Lynch <tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu> wrote in article
><645tod$o...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>...
>(snip)
>>
>> For instance, one can look at the somewhat bizarre scene between Odo
>> and the Founder, where she tells Odo that she's having Kira executed
>> so that Odo will be free of her. Excuse me? Is this the same Founder
>> who managed to play on Odo's feelings so perfectly several times
>> before? If she really felt Kira's execution was in Odo's best interests,
>
>> she wouldn't have warned him in advance of it; she wouldn't have
>> told him about it at all until she'd *done* it. Then Odo might have felt
>
>> that his choices were being removed, but since he really wouldn't
>> have been able to do anything about it, he probably would have been
>> drawn back into the Link -- and would have truly gone back to his
>> people. As it is, we got the chance to see Odo "redeem" himself and
>> be forgiven -- but if the Founders had possessed an ounce of brains,
>> Odo would have stayed put, Kira and Rom would never have gotten
>> to the computer, and Dukat would have managed to destroy the
>> Defiant before it ever entered the wormhole.
>
>I have an explanation: the female Founder probably believed that Odo was so
>completely under her thumb (remember, he said that the Feddies *used* to be
>his friends) that she thought nothing of telling him. She underestimated
>the feelings he still had for Kira.
>
>If the writers are smart, they won't sweep this under the carpet. I've
>heard that Odo eventually is made to atone for what he did, and I certainly
>hope he does.
>
>I think what doomed the Dominion and Cardassians--first and foremost--was
>their own arrogance.
>
>(Tim's excellent points snipped)
>
Right. If Dukat is allowed to be blinded by his own arrogance (on
which point I certainly agree with Mr. Lynch - it *is* like everyone's
favorite gul, alright) - why not Founders? It's not as if they were
noted for their humility, especially when it comes to "lesser"
races... The war, from their p.o.v., was already won - everyone here
admits that as it was, Our Heroes needed a miracle - and, I'm afraid,
changelings aren't Bajoran enough to take such a possibility (a
miracle) seriously or beware the wrath of the Prophets (they were
almost right, too...) She felt she won on all points - why should she
care? And there's one more thing, adding on continuity,
character-wise: as long as we have seen this Odo / his people rift,
the Founders didn't take his rejection as anything else than *lack of
understanding*. Not evil; not animosity; not alienation - simply
misunderstanding. All the time they (and Salome Jens' character in
particular) try to make him finally "get it" and stop clinging to his
"delusions". Contemptous to "limited" solids as they are, our dear
gods are pretty small-minded themselves, unable to see past their own
accepted views - and as such, can't process it in whatever they use as
brain that Odo gets it alright - *and doesn't like it*. Willingly and
knowingly. They choose to believe he is just mistaken, confused, etc.
(I guess to believe otherwise would be rather devastating to the
Link's collective consciousness too). So, when that belonging feeling
overwhelms Odo for a while, the Changeling speaker could - and should,
I think - take it as if he finally understood, and not was cleverly
deceived . We are talking about her manipulating him, raping him,
whatever (and objectively, it might be so), but it's the same mistake
that Weyoun made. She doesn't see it that way. She sees herself as his
teacher and liberator - *sincerely*. And it's *her* delusion that he
finally saw the light - for good. And once he did, he certainly
shouldn't care any longer and can be spoken to and confided in as an
equal, and adult.. He is not one to manipulate and be calculative
about - he is one of her own, "real people". That's where her (their)
downfall was. I for one find it a strong point of the episode and
overall story (consistent too): as long as these people believe that
others are inherently inferior, as long as they are convinced that "we
are nothing like solids", they are doomed to lose...
Anna
Timothy W. Lynch
"recook77" <reco...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>Timothy W. Lynch <tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu> wrote in article
><645tod$o...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>...
Spoilers:
>> For instance, one can look at the somewhat bizarre scene between Odo
>> and the Founder, where she tells Odo that she's having Kira executed
>> so that Odo will be free of her. Excuse me? Is this the same Founder
>> who managed to play on Odo's feelings so perfectly several times
>> before? If she really felt Kira's execution was in Odo's best interests,
>> she wouldn't have warned him in advance of it; she wouldn't have
>> told him about it at all until she'd *done* it. Then Odo might have felt
>> that his choices were being removed, but since he really wouldn't
>> have been able to do anything about it, he probably would have been
>> drawn back into the Link -- and would have truly gone back to his
>> people. As it is, we got the chance to see Odo "redeem" himself and
>> be forgiven -- but if the Founders had possessed an ounce of brains,
>> Odo would have stayed put, Kira and Rom would never have gotten
>> to the computer, and Dukat would have managed to destroy the
>> Defiant before it ever entered the wormhole.
>I have an explanation: the female Founder probably believed that Odo was so
>completely under her thumb (remember, he said that the Feddies *used* to be
>his friends) that she thought nothing of telling him. She underestimated
>the feelings he still had for Kira.
Are the Founders really *that* stupid? They've used the depth of
Odo's feelings against him, both often and recently -- for them to
suddenly decide it's not that important is falling victim to rapid
brain decay.
>If the writers are smart, they won't sweep this under the carpet. I've
>heard that Odo eventually is made to atone for what he did, and I certainly
>hope he does.
As do I. That would help a great deal; it would leave me frustrated
but feeling less cheated. (Assuming, of course, that it's *soon*;
having everyone around him be pleased as punch with him and then do an
about-face later is pretty silly, too.)
Tim Lynch
Stormin'
"Lasher" <las...@netwave.net> wrote:
>
> And Dumar? Do you think any alliance with him leading one of the parties
>is going to work? He hates non-Cardassians way too much to see the
>political realities of the situation. I think it highly likely that Dumar
>push the Dominion too far, and force the Dominion to conquer Cardassia.
>That would be pretty interesting, if it happened.
The Dominion, if they see the opportunity, are going to conquer (and
very likely, get rid of, altogether) Cardassia as the Chanegling once
told Garak once upon a time ago. "Your race is dead." Right now,
Cardassia was important to get their foot into the Alpha Quandrant and
have a strong "Ally." Once conquest is made, however . . . Bajor is
not the only one at risk at the borders.
Stormin'
>
Jose Gonzalez
>Tim Lynch wrote:
Some Spoiler Space:
> In brief: The epitome of frustration: many things done and done well,
> but many things undone or turned completely back.
I agree with that. Frustration was a big part of the reaction I felt
immediately after seeing this.
> The term "reset button" has come into such common usage among
> SFTV fans that I'm afraid to use it; it feels like a cliche. Nevertheless,
> that's the immediate phrase that comes to mind after seeing "Sacrifice
> of Angels"
I don't know that this is fair. This arc started with "Call to Arms," and
before that, there was no war with the Dominion. For this to be a reset,
the war would have to have been ended, with the Dominion in retreat to the
Gamma Quadrant.
[On Odo's chilling turn in "Behind the Lines":]
> That was challenging. That was, quite frankly, pretty damned
> groundbreaking stuff for DS9 -- and given the chain of events it set in
> motion, it should have had major repercussions for Odo and for how
> everybody viewed him.
>
> Now? Well, it's perhaps too soon to be able to judge with any real
> certainty, but based on the aftermath of Odo saving the day it appears
> that all of that has been excised from reality with a single sweep of a
> writer's pen. No recriminations, no repercussions, no consequences
A couple weeks ago, concerned about this exact point, I asked Ron Moore
(via AOL) if we see any of the consequences of Odo's actions beyond the
opening. I don't have exactly what he wrote handy, but he assured me that
the "reverberations" would continue to be felt throughout the season. I
understand that there's a little bit dealing with it in "You Are Cordially
Invited," and possibly in "Waltz," though that's just a rumor.
If there are no consequences, then I'm going to have to agree that this
Odo angle was just an interesting exercise and little more. I'm fairly
hopeful that this will be brought up again at some point, DS9 is pretty
good about these things. ("Hard Time" and others excepted.)
> "Sacrifice of Angels" had three main frustrations; the first was Odo.
> The second was the Federation's victory in the war. No, not the fact
> that the good guys won; I'm not *that* big of a curmudgeon, and it
> was certainly a foregone conclusion that Sisko would be back in his
> office eventually. The problem I have here is the *way* in which they
> won.
Could not agree more.
> That doesn't even mean I object to the nearly literal _deus ex machina_
> way in which the Dominion reinforcements were removed from the
> picture. It was certainly somewhat annoying, particularly since Sisko
> didn't seem to think in advance of *asking* the Prophets to do
> something, which he probably should have done
That was my main objection to it. I think DS9's writers wanted this to be
a huge surprise, and so didn't set it up at all, which was a huge
*mistake*. It came off as contrived and easy.
-- but when all is
> said and done, the Prophets *are* an integral part of DS9 and
> particularly of the wormhole, so having them remove the
> reinforcements is somewhat plausible, and certainly an awful lot better
> than having O'Brien crank up some magic-tech solution.
Agreed, but this opening arc should not have been resolved by Gods, I just
don't care how well it can be justified. This arc was about these people
and how they're reacting in the midst of war, and I think the resolution
needed to be a triumph of the human (or whatever alien) spirit, and not a
"miracle." If this had been Sisko's plan all along, if Weyoun and Dukat
had realized what he was doing, if there were some more immediate
consequences to what the Prophets did...if if if.
> For instance, one can look at the somewhat bizarre scene between Odo
> and the Founder, where she tells Odo that she's having Kira executed
> so that Odo will be free of her. Excuse me? Is this the same Founder
> who managed to play on Odo's feelings so perfectly several times
> before? If she really felt Kira's execution was in Odo's best interests,
> she wouldn't have warned him in advance of it; she wouldn't have
> told him about it at all until she'd *done* it. Then Odo might have felt
> that his choices were being removed, but since he really wouldn't
> have been able to do anything about it, he probably would have been
> drawn back into the Link -- and would have truly gone back to his
> people. As it is, we got the chance to see Odo "redeem" himself and
> be forgiven -- but if the Founders had possessed an ounce of brains,
> Odo would have stayed put, Kira and Rom would never have gotten
> to the computer, and Dukat would have managed to destroy the
> Defiant before it ever entered the wormhole.
Disagree here. The Founders have always made it very clear that whether
or not Odo joins the Great Link is his decision. They could surely
*force* him to rejoin the link anytime they want. Surely that many minds
and the effects of the link would convert Odo rather quickly. (Just look
what one changeling linking with him did to Odo.) I think the
conversation the Female Changeling and Weyoun had last episode played a
large part here. Weyoun insinuated that she was manipulating Odo in order
to neutralize him, and perhaps part of her believes that. Odo has always
been treated as an equal, and the key point here is that, as the
changeling says, she has given him "clarity," he must now "accept it." If
she had simply had Kira killed, and Odo found out about it, that may very
well have turned him against the link forever. After realizing that she
may have been manipulating Odo, she gives him a clear, hard choice that
she hopes will go the way she wants it. He has to come willingly, and
that means he has to know about Kira's execution before it happens, so
that by doing nothing, he can make his final choice to turn towards his
people. I thought that this was very clearly a test for him, his final
one. Notice how she is very unsurprised when Odo decides to stay behind,
obviously having made his choice.
I don't see this as idiot villainy at all.
> Even given the
> morale blow of losing DS9 and the help from the Klingons, there's no
> reason why the Dominion can't continue the war and work on a near-
> immediate re-seizure of DS9. After all, let's remember that the Alpha
> Quadrant supply of "white" has been destroyed -- the Dominion
> *needs* access to the wormhole if they're going to survive in this part
> of the galaxy at all.
This was the big gripe I had with the choice not to explain what happened
with the wormhole. I just assumed that the Founder and Weyoun realized
that none of their forces were going to be allowed through the wormhole,
and that losing more ships to retain a station that held no value was
pointless. (This was also another reason that having the Prophets *close*
the wormhole would have made this all make more sense.)
> I think viewers can legitimately expect that
> *something* of serious value needs to be sacrificed if the good guys
> are going to be able to win.
Ziyal was a sacrifice of serious value, to a lot of characters. Odo gave
up his people. Dukat gave up his sanity. Damar lost his idol, and
perhaps gained power, but at the loss of his soul. Sisko, who most
closely corresponds to the "angel" in the title, gave up his "home," at
least at some point in the future.
> On the whole, though, I have to say that I found "Sacrifice of Angels"
> pretty disappointing.
I liked it more than you, and it did have some really amazing stuff (both
in the action and with the characters), but I feel much the same.
> As the last part of a major story, it should be a
> roller-coaster ride -- but it should not be a roller-coaster ride between
> "wow!" and "no, that's stupid!", and it shouldn't be a roller-coaster
> ride at the expense of characterization.
Hmmm... I think that with a few exceptions (Jake key among them),
characterization was the one thing that was consistently brilliant
throughout this arc. The writers put their characters in unique,
dramatically-rich situations, and then milked those dynamics for all they
were worth. It was the plot points towards the end of the arc that were
the most damaging, but the characters? No way.
> -- Speaking of Damar, I kind of wonder at this point what's going to
> become of him.
"Dominion Puppet?"
> That about covers it. I feel like I'm being awfully hard on "Sacrifice
> of Angels",
How do you think *I* feel? Checking out the S.O.S. poll, it looks like
I'm near the bottom 10% of ratings for this episode. I know *you're* used
to being there, but I *like* DS9. (Joke. That was a joke. (:)
> OVERALL: A 6, for effort more than anything else. I'm not at all
> sure how this will age; it may jump up, or it may plummet. Consider
> that a very temporary rating.
Low, I think, but then we look for different things out of our DS9,
methinks. The rest of the season will definitely determine what my final
view of "Sacrifice of Angels" will be. Here's hoping for the best.
-
Jose Gonzalez
recook77
Timothy W. Lynch <tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu> wrote in article
<647pjp$r...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>...
> "recook77" <reco...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> >Timothy W. Lynch <tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu> wrote in article
> ><645tod$o...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>...
>
> Spoilers:
>
>
> >> For instance, one can look at the somewhat bizarre scene between Odo
> >> and the Founder, where she tells Odo that she's having Kira executed
> >> so that Odo will be free of her. Excuse me? Is this the same Founder
> >> who managed to play on Odo's feelings so perfectly several times
> >> before? If she really felt Kira's execution was in Odo's best
interests,
> >> she wouldn't have warned him in advance of it; she wouldn't have
> >> told him about it at all until she'd *done* it. Then Odo might have
felt
> >> that his choices were being removed, but since he really wouldn't
> >> have been able to do anything about it, he probably would have been
> >> drawn back into the Link -- and would have truly gone back to his
> >> people. As it is, we got the chance to see Odo "redeem" himself and
> >> be forgiven -- but if the Founders had possessed an ounce of brains,
> >> Odo would have stayed put, Kira and Rom would never have gotten
> >> to the computer, and Dukat would have managed to destroy the
> >> Defiant before it ever entered the wormhole.
>
> >I have an explanation: the female Founder probably believed that Odo was
so
> >completely under her thumb (remember, he said that the Feddies *used* to
be
> >his friends) that she thought nothing of telling him. She
underestimated
> >the feelings he still had for Kira.
>
> Are the Founders really *that* stupid? They've used the depth of
> Odo's feelings against him, both often and recently -- for them to
> suddenly decide it's not that important is falling victim to rapid
> brain decay.
>
Not so much stupid as arrogant and overly self-assured. That is my
interpretation. YMMV.
> >If the writers are smart, they won't sweep this under the carpet. I've
> >heard that Odo eventually is made to atone for what he did, and I
certainly
> >hope he does.
>
> As do I. That would help a great deal; it would leave me frustrated
> but feeling less cheated. (Assuming, of course, that it's *soon*;
> having everyone around him be pleased as punch with him and then do an
> about-face later is pretty silly, too.)
>
I've heard that Odo eventually has to atone for his betrayal, especially to
Kira.
Clearly, Odo values her opinion of him...remember the end of "Favor the
Bold"?
> Tim Lynch
>
Timothy W. Lynch
wat...@cableinet.net writes:
Spoilers:
>Right. If Dukat is allowed to be blinded by his own arrogance (on
>which point I certainly agree with Mr. Lynch - it *is* like everyone's
>favorite gul, alright) - why not Founders? It's not as if they were
>noted for their humility, especially when it comes to "lesser"
>races...
Quite true; they're not. They *are*, however, noted for their insight
on Odo, their careful planning, and their forethought. All of those
went completely out the window in one two-minute scene which lost them
the station. "For want of a nail" scenarios can be very interesting,
but this felt like a textbook case of how not to do one.
Tim Lynch
Timothy W. Lynch
>Some Spoiler Space:
>> The term "reset button" has come into such common usage among
>> SFTV fans that I'm afraid to use it; it feels like a cliche. Nevertheless,
>> that's the immediate phrase that comes to mind after seeing "Sacrifice
>> of Angels"
>I don't know that this is fair. This arc started with "Call to Arms," and
>before that, there was no war with the Dominion. For this to be a reset,
>the war would have to have been ended, with the Dominion in retreat to the
>Gamma Quadrant.
Well, the station's been retaken, and the Dominion's retreated to
Cardassia. That's pretty much what we had just prior to "Call to
Arms", yes?
>[On Odo's chilling turn in "Behind the Lines":]
>A couple weeks ago, concerned about this exact point, I asked Ron Moore
>(via AOL) if we see any of the consequences of Odo's actions beyond the
>opening. I don't have exactly what he wrote handy, but he assured me that
>the "reverberations" would continue to be felt throughout the season.
I hope so. I really do. That will make me feel a great deal
better about the show, particularly if they show up as early as next
week.
> -- but when all is
>> said and done, the Prophets *are* an integral part of DS9 and
>> particularly of the wormhole, so having them remove the
>> reinforcements is somewhat plausible, and certainly an awful lot better
>> than having O'Brien crank up some magic-tech solution.
>Agreed, but this opening arc should not have been resolved by Gods, I just
>don't care how well it can be justified. This arc was about these people
>and how they're reacting in the midst of war, and I think the resolution
>needed to be a triumph of the human (or whatever alien) spirit, and not a
>"miracle." If this had been Sisko's plan all along, if Weyoun and Dukat
>had realized what he was doing, if there were some more immediate
>consequences to what the Prophets did...if if if.
The only real problem I have with it is that we should've seen Sisko
think of it in advance. Apart from that, I really have no problem
with it at all.
[Odo/Founder]
>Disagree here. The Founders have always made it very clear that whether
>or not Odo joins the Great Link is his decision. They could surely
>*force* him to rejoin the link anytime they want. Surely that many minds
>and the effects of the link would convert Odo rather quickly. (Just look
>what one changeling linking with him did to Odo.) I think the
>conversation the Female Changeling and Weyoun had last episode played a
>large part here. Weyoun insinuated that she was manipulating Odo in order
>to neutralize him, and perhaps part of her believes that. Odo has always
>been treated as an equal, and the key point here is that, as the
>changeling says, she has given him "clarity," he must now "accept it." If
>she had simply had Kira killed, and Odo found out about it, that may very
>well have turned him against the link forever. After realizing that she
>may have been manipulating Odo, she gives him a clear, hard choice that
>she hopes will go the way she wants it. He has to come willingly, and
>that means he has to know about Kira's execution before it happens, so
>that by doing nothing, he can make his final choice to turn towards his
>people. I thought that this was very clearly a test for him, his final
>one. Notice how she is very unsurprised when Odo decides to stay behind,
>obviously having made his choice.
Hmm. I'll have to think about this one for a while. If nothing else,
it was silly of her to do this *while the war was intact*; if she'd
just waited eight hours until the reinforcements were through, she
could have let him make his choice without threatening the war effort.
However, you've given me something to chew on about her motivations;
thanks.
>> I think viewers can legitimately expect that
>> *something* of serious value needs to be sacrificed if the good guys
>> are going to be able to win.
>Ziyal was a sacrifice of serious value, to a lot of characters.
Not to this viewer.
>Odo gave up his people.
No. Odo *never had* his people. There's a difference.
>Dukat gave up his sanity. Damar lost his idol, and
>perhaps gained power, but at the loss of his soul.
Both are villains and thus obliged to sacrifice by their loss.
>Sisko, who most
>closely corresponds to the "angel" in the title, gave up his "home," at
>least at some point in the future.
This one I'll grant and look forward to -- but it's a nebulous
sacrifice in the short term. Look, for instance, at Jake: he risked
everything to stay behind, and for what? Absolutely no purpose.
>> As the last part of a major story, it should be a
>> roller-coaster ride -- but it should not be a roller-coaster ride between
>> "wow!" and "no, that's stupid!", and it shouldn't be a roller-coaster
>> ride at the expense of characterization.
>Hmmm... I think that with a few exceptions (Jake key among them),
>characterization was the one thing that was consistently brilliant
>throughout this arc.
Odo was pulled too many ways at once, and Jake and Bashir were total
ciphers (at least, after Jake's good material in the first two shows).
Most of the others were good, though I'd hesitate to say "brilliant"
in some of them.
>> That about covers it. I feel like I'm being awfully hard on "Sacrifice
>> of Angels",
>How do you think *I* feel? Checking out the S.O.S. poll, it looks like
>I'm near the bottom 10% of ratings for this episode. I know *you're* used
>to being there, but I *like* DS9. (Joke. That was a joke. (:)
Thpppth. That's why I had a 10 for "Behind the Lines" and got beaten
up for *it*. I swear, I'm getting too old for this biz. :-)
>> OVERALL: A 6, for effort more than anything else. I'm not at all
>> sure how this will age; it may jump up, or it may plummet. Consider
>> that a very temporary rating.
>Low, I think, but then we look for different things out of our DS9,
>methinks. The rest of the season will definitely determine what my final
>view of "Sacrifice of Angels" will be. Here's hoping for the best.
As it will mine. I share your hope, but not your optimism; too many
years of being burned have left me wary of any glow that looks too
tempting.
Tim Lynch
Brian Barjenbruch
> > : -- Speaking of Damar, I kind of wonder at this point what's going to
>
Why not? What has Damar done that would merit leaving him alive? He
murdered Ziyal in cold blood. Right in front of Dukat, no less. I'm no
great fan of Dukat, especially after recent events, but now even <I>
wouldn't mind Damar being tossed out the nearest airlock sans space suit.
Brian
Robert Oliver
> Quite true; they're not. They *are*, however, noted for their insight
> on Odo, their careful planning, and their forethought. All of those
> went completely out the window in one two-minute scene which lost them
> the station. "For want of a nail" scenarios can be very interesting,
> but this felt like a textbook case of how not to do one.
Don't forget what the Changeling said--Odo is more important to them
than the Alpha Quadrant. Losing the station is only a minor setback to
beings that live very long lifespans and care little for the actual
mechanics of conquering other governments and such. That female
Changeling seems largely concerned with the Great Link and not the
activities of solids. She seems quite confident that they will get Odo
back, and that seems to be of far more importance to them than anything
else.
I would guess that the Link NEEDS to have Odo back, perhaps even MUST
have him back for some reason. Perhaps the future of the Great Link (and
thus the whole Dominion) will be determined by Odo's actions?
--
Robert Oliver (rol...@mint.net)
Big Country: Steeltown (http://www.mint.net/~roliver/bc-mint.htm)
A Guide to the Star Trek Universe
(http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/6053/)
Keith M. Kurzman
Brian Barjenbruch (bri...@home.com) wrote:
> > > : -- Speaking of Damar, I kind of wonder at this point what's going to
> >
>
> Why not? What has Damar done that would merit leaving him alive? He
> murdered Ziyal in cold blood. Right in front of Dukat, no less.
Ah, but Brian... that's EXACTLY why not... Damar is shaping up into an
excellent villain, and it would be a terrible shame for him to get offed
so soon. Yeah, I hate him. But I hate him in a good way. But maybe that's
just my masochistic tendencies showing.
--baby morris
Timothy W. Lynch
>: WARNING: Abandon all hope of remaining unspoiled, ye who enter
>: here: "Sacrifice of Angels" spoilers lie below.
[Odo]
>I think it is premature to judge at this point.
I had a review to get out; premature or not, I had to say something.
:-) In general, I agree. In previous seasons, I've occasionally been
optimistic about things not being dropped, and occasionally been
pessimistic. Right now I'm feeling pretty pessimistic about it -- but
I'm more than wiling to be pleasantly surprised.
>The real telling point will
>come in their discussion in future episodes.
Agreed.
>: The problem I have with Sisko's victory is that it didn't come about
>: because he and the Federation were smart, or because they managed to
>: effectively exploit the flaws of the Cardassian/Dominion alliance. The
>: reason Sisko and company won is that their principal adversaries
>: turned into rank idiots overnight -- and *that* is simply bad plotting.
>I didn't find the overconfidence on the part of the enemy nearly as
>unbelievable as in many other, similar stories that have been done over
>the years. There was really no reason *not* to believe that they didn't
>have things tied up in a neat little bundle.
Except that several moments (the Founder/Odo scene in particular)
were overconfidence from people who have never fallen prey to it
before. Dukat's overconfidence, I can buy in a second.
>: Then, of course, there's the entire sequence of Quark and Ziyal
>: freeing the prisoners; no, thank you. The Cardassian guard should
>: have refused to let Quark and Ziyal come anywhere near him,
>: particularly without bringing a second person into the room, and the
>: Jem'Hadar Quark threatened should have shot on sight, or potentially
>: shrouded themselves -- you know, that thing they can do that adds to
>: their formidability? Quark single-handedly taking out two Jem'Hadar
>: is possibly the least realistic victory I've seen since Worf lost to two
>: Ferengi *even with the advantage of surprise* in TNG's "Rascals".
>Did you see the scene where Dukat explodes in rage at Dumar when he
>suggests Ziyal might be a traitor? Those Cardies aren't likely to just up
>and simiss Ziyal as if she didn't exist. Again, I found this far more
>plausible than similar stories I've seen do the same thing.
The Ziyal part made the first half just *barely* plausible -- but it
doesn't justify the silliness of having exactly one guard in the
security office, *or* Quark getting the drop on two Jem'Hadar, then
*losing* it, then *still* winning.
>As far as notable moments, I rather enjoyed Weyoun's last look around
>DS9. There was a lot going on with the character there, particularly in
>light of the interesting character development we've seen of him recently
>(his discussions of artistic appreciation, etc.)
No argument there.
Tim Lynch
Nelson Lu
In article <brianb1-1111...@cx31002-a.omhaw1.ne.home.com>,
Brian Barjenbruch <bri...@home.com> wrote:
>Why not? What has Damar done that would merit leaving him alive? He
>great fan of Dukat, especially after recent events, but now even <I>
>wouldn't mind Damar being tossed out the nearest airlock sans space suit.
Except that Damar himself, and the other Cardassians, wouldn't consider this
murder even if they know about it. To them, killing Ziyal is a just execution
since she betrayed Cardassia.
The fact that you are angry about what Damar did shows how good the character
can be. (I don't much care for Casey Biggs' acting, though.)
Angela
Timothy W. Lynch wrote:
>
> The regular character who underwent the greatest change over the
> course of the six weeks was Odo, and I found the Odo arc in "Behind
> the Lines" to be easily one of the single most compelling features of
> this entire war-against-the-Dominion storyline. In a single hour, Odo
> transformed from the resistance's greatest hope into its greatest fear
> and all without a single shred of ill intent on his part; he was just so> obsessed with *belonging*, with being able to find others like him,
> that he fell in over his head.
> Now? Well, it's perhaps too soon to be able to judge with any real
> certainty, but based on the aftermath of Odo saving the day it appears
> that all of that has been excised from reality with a single sweep of a > writer's pen. No recriminations, no repercussions, no consequences
> -- just a quick "the Link was paradise, but it appears I'm not ready for > paradise", and Kira *accepts* that. Will Sisko and company even
> *find out* how Odo's dithering nearly doomed the Alpha Quadrant? I
> sure hope so, but after "Sacrifice of Angels" I'm not feeling
> particularly hopeful.
Agreed. This is just one of the things that could easily have been
better. Such as a quick shot of Odo sitting alone in his quarters after
the 'big' rescue, seemingly wrapped in thought and grim, as oppose to
joining the celebration of the big return. That would have showed that
things have certainly changed for Odo, and that the confusion will
linger.
>
His subsequent crumbling in the face of defeat almost hurt to
> watch, but mostly because Dukat's been such an effectively realized
> character that it felt like we were losing a friend. Dukat wandering the
> Promenade, nearly oblivious to all around him was a marvelous scene
> (if quite brief), and despite my feeling that Ziyal's death was
> unnecessary, it proved an effective final straw to send Dukat into
> catatonia.
Ah, remember in one of the previous episodes Dukat exploding at Dumar
for insinuating she was a traitor. After her confession of helping Kira
and the others escape, Dukat should have fired the shot, realizing that
his own daughter made a major assist in his lost of the Alfa Quadrant,
The Federation, and Bajor. Her blatant betrayal would be overwhelming.
Dumar killing Ziyal might make him very angry, but having to kill Ziyal
'the traitor' himself would more so send him over the edge when he sees
the dead Ziyal 'his daughter'. Tragic.
Both the effects and the editing in the> Defiant's battle sequences
were also top-notch; things have come a
> long way in the last few years, and the Battle of Four Fleets (tm)
> certainly showed it, with things happening in so many different places
> that it was difficult to keep up. (And, of course, the effect of the
> minefield going poof was at least as effective as the shot showing it
> starting up back in "Call to Arms".)
They have never done it better. Maybe your rating should go up a point
for the outstanding visuals.
> -- The imagery of the baseball was marvelous throughout the entire
> show, and it seems only fair that the show end with Sisko holding it
> again.
Yes. But, it would have been very dramatic to see Sisko TAKE the
baseball out of Dukat's hand and not have Dukat give it up so willingly.
It would have showed not Dukat as defeated, buy Sisko as victorious. My
station, My baseball :)
Angie
Marg Petersen
In article <647pjp$r...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
Timothy W. Lynch <tly...@alumni.caltech.edu> wrote:
>"recook77" <reco...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>>Timothy W. Lynch <tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu> wrote in article
>><645tod$o...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>...
>
>Spoilers:
>
>>> and the Founder, where she tells Odo that she's having Kira executed
>>> so that Odo will be free of her. Excuse me? Is this the same Founder
>>> who managed to play on Odo's feelings so perfectly several times
>>> before? If she really felt Kira's execution was in Odo's best interests,
>>> she wouldn't have warned him in advance of it; she wouldn't have
>>> told him about it at all until she'd *done* it. Then Odo might have felt
>>> that his choices were being removed, but since he really wouldn't
>>> have been able to do anything about it, he probably would have been
>>> drawn back into the Link -- and would have truly gone back to his
>>> people. As it is, we got the chance to see Odo "redeem" himself and
>>> be forgiven -- but if the Founders had possessed an ounce of brains,
>>> Odo would have stayed put, Kira and Rom would never have gotten
>>> to the computer, and Dukat would have managed to destroy the
>>> Defiant before it ever entered the wormhole.
>
>>completely under her thumb (remember, he said that the Feddies *used* to be
>>his friends) that she thought nothing of telling him. She underestimated
>>the feelings he still had for Kira.
>
>Are the Founders really *that* stupid? They've used the depth of
>Odo's feelings against him, both often and recently -- for them to
>suddenly decide it's not that important is falling victim to rapid
>brain decay.
I don't think the Founders are *stupid*, but they most certainly
are arrogant. I think it was the head Founder babe's arrogance
that led her to believe that she had Odo completely seduced, er...
sucked in....er,whatever. I think the Founder figured that Odo
would not have any reaction whatsoever to Kira's being killed at
that point. And as far as Odo goes, I think that he finally
realized just cruel the Founders could be. They may share a total
*oneness* while in the Link, but by keeping that kind of cruelty
from him, he may have suddenly realized that they were quite capable
of stringing him along. In other words, NOT being as upfront as
he thought they were being. Big mistake on their part.
I found it quite interesting to see the parallels between the
Founders' arrogance (based on supposed biological and intellectual
superiority), contrasted nicely by Dukat's arrogance (based on
his belief in his military power and might.) Arrogance brought
them down.
>>If the writers are smart, they won't sweep this under the carpet. I've
>>heard that Odo eventually is made to atone for what he did, and I certainly
>>hope he does.
>
>As do I. That would help a great deal; it would leave me frustrated
>but feeling less cheated. (Assuming, of course, that it's *soon*;
>having everyone around him be pleased as punch with him and then do an
>about-face later is pretty silly, too.)
I agree, although, it could be said that Odo didn't exactly DO
anything to anyone. He didn't do anything FOR them either (at least
until later), but during his *seduced* phase, he merely didn't
react either in a positive or negative manner. He was merely an
onlooker. Like so many of us in our own world's massive problems?
Should we TOO be held accountable for that? Should we? A good
question to ponder I think.
>Tim Lynch
Marg
--
Marg Petersen Member PSEB: Official Sonneteer JLP-SOL
god...@peak.org http://www.peak.org/~goddess
"At ease Ensign, before you sprain something." - Capt. Janeway
Jon Peck
> But, it would have been very dramatic to see Sisko TAKE the
> baseball out of Dukat's hand and not have Dukat give it up so willingly.
> It would have showed not Dukat as defeated, buy Sisko as
> victorious. My station, My baseball :)
But keep in mind Dukat's perspective on victory and defeat: It's not
just important to defeat your enemy, but also to make him regret ever
having opposed you in the first place. *Being* defeated is one thing,
but having to *concede* defeat is the ultimate blow. So Dukat having
to concede defeat by returning Sisko's baseball is, for Dukat, the
ultimate, painful acknowledgment of having been vanquished.
Jon
Lt.Cdr.Parent
The way he says it "I forgive you too", leads to believe that the
defeat, and the death of his daughter has made him snap and disconnect
from reality.
Sam
MOJO
On Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:30:59 GMT, spam...@dragon.erupt.com (Shaun
McDowell) wrote:
>In article <648fi7$l...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, tly...@alumni.caltech.edu wrote:
>>jsm...@imap1.asu.edu writes:
>>>Timothy W. Lynch (tly...@alumnae.caltech.edu) wrote:
>>
>>>: WARNING: Abandon all hope of remaining unspoiled, ye who enter
>>>: here: "Sacrifice of Angels" spoilers lie below.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
><snip>
>>
>>The Ziyal part made the first half just *barely* plausible -- but it
>>doesn't justify the silliness of having exactly one guard in the
>>security office, *or* Quark getting the drop on two Jem'Hadar, then
>>*losing* it, then *still* winning.
>
>While the situation with Quark and the Jem'Hadar might not have been
>completely realistic(Personally, I believe that the Jem'Hadar would have
>shot him on sight.), I think that it is a great step in Quark's
>character development. Up until now, Quark has always been portrayed as
>a sly, weaselly fellow who is (seemingly) pretty cowardly. Then, when
>the Alpha Quadrant(not to mention his brother's life) is on the line, he
>takes action. Confronting two armed Jem'Hadar is a far braver act than
>I would have credited him with. I think that it was intended to show
>that desperate situations can make heroes out of ordinary men(or
>Ferengi), and I applaud the writers for including it.
>
. . . actually, Quark has shown his true mettle several times in the
past. While he's not the sort to go looking for glorious battle, when
the chips are down, he's usually pretty reliable.
There are quite a few instances of Quark's bravery. For example,
setting up his cousin and the arms merchant and "fighting" D'Ghor
(sp?) to save Grilka's house. Hardly the acts of a coward.
I have always agreed with Kira's assessment of bravery, when she was
talking about the cleaning lady who passed information to the
resistance during the occupation. That is, the bravest people are
those who are scared but still do what they have to.
Regards,
MOJO
<Begin gratuitous self promotion mode>
Don't forget to check out my glorious web page:
'The Klingon Cultural Attache'
http://www.southwest.com.au/~christian/INDEX.html
<End gratuitous self-promotion mode>
John Paulus
Maureen Goldman (inksl...@FOGsunshine.net) wrote:
: Robert Oliver <rol...@mint.net> wrote:
: > Don't forget what the Changeling said--Odo is more important to them
: > than the Alpha Quadrant. Losing the station is only a minor setback to
: > beings that live very long lifespans and care little for the actual
: > mechanics of conquering other governments and such. That female
: > Changeling seems largely concerned with the Great Link and not the
: > activities of solids. She seems quite confident that they will get Odo
: > back, and that seems to be of far more importance to them than anything
: > else.
: At that rate, I have to wonder why those four Changelings were sent to
: Earth. I would have thought that the goal of these folks would be to
: wipe out all solids.
Which 4 changelings are you talking about?
:
: > I would guess that the Link NEEDS to have Odo back, perhaps even MUST
: > have him back for some reason. Perhaps the future of the Great Link (and
: > thus the whole Dominion) will be determined by Odo's actions?
: They sent out some 400 "babies", as I recall. Odo wasn't supposed to
: find them for a very long time. Yes, the Female Founder has stressed
: the importance of getting him back, but offhand I can't see why or
: that Odo is necessary or unique in some way. For instance, would they
: suffer any sort of real loss if he died? Or... might the problem go
: in a different direction - say, that there are other changelings and
: other Great Links..
Odo is like a "gifted" child...he was able to establish himself pretty much
on his own, in a relatively short period of time.
His desire to be a part of the Great Link also interests the FOunders.
i wonder if the writers are paralleling this at all with ethnicities (like
an Asian-AMERICAN trying to find their roots, etc.)
--jp--
--
j.p. paulus 4625 N. Kenmore Avenue #2
sha...@ripco.com Chicago IL 60640-5024
http://pages.ripco.com:8080/~shadowm/index.html 773/784-5640
********************** GO GOD!!!!! ************************
Hiero Bosch
Timothy W. Lynch wrote in message <647pjp$r...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>...
>Are the Founders really *that* stupid? They've used the depth of
>Odo's feelings against him, both often and recently -- for them to
>suddenly decide it's not that important is falling victim to rapid
>brain decay.
>
It's always possible it was a test, as in "Heart of Stone." After all, the
Founders don't want Odo if he doesn't want to come willingly.
Chinh Nguyen
The writers could have solved the whole Quark thing just by having the J'H
with their weapons holstered.
--
--Chinh Nguyen chin...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu
"I was never more hated than when I tried to be honest. Or when, even as
just now I've tried to articulate exactly what I felt to be the
truth." -- Ralph Ellison, _The Invisible Man_
JLF
>
>: At that rate, I have to wonder why those four Changelings were sent to
>: Earth. I would have thought that the goal of these folks would be to
>: wipe out all solids.
>
>Which 4 changelings are you talking about?
>
>:
>: > I would guess that the Link NEEDS to have Odo back, perhaps even
MUST
He's referring to the four changlings which were mentioned in another episode
two seasons ago when the Federation feared at that time a Dominion attack
due to the worm hole opening and closing for no real reason. One of the
Changlenings approached Sisko while he was on Earth and told him there
were only 4 Changelings on Earth.