Loch Ness and it's loops
COASTRBENT
though each loop only when there is 3 trains on the track. It does look
quite "cool." Of course dispatch of the trains from the drivers also has
a lot to do with that effect. You won't see this happen during 2 train
operation.
Only one more month....
Ride High
Michael
Kevin E. Zsenak
I don't see why not. I was never a Nessie operator, but I was an operator
at SFGAdv. GASM. We use to run three/two/one train(s). Yes, there were
official dispatch intervals, these were set so unexpierenced operators
wouldn't set-up the ride. In reality, the ride is computerized. You
can send the train just about anytime you want. If you wanted to have
two trains going through the loops at the same time, you would just wait
alittle longer before sending out the second train.
I use to make all the operators (and some supervisors) nervous. The crue
I was on got so good, that I could dispatch the second train while the
first one was still climbing the lift. The first train would clear the
lift just as the second one was 1/2 out of the station. The lift motor
would not go into its idle speed in between cycles. Who said 1680 capacity
couldn't be beat :).
Kevin
--
<-------------------------------------------------------->
Kevin E. Zsenak |"Roller-coaster operators
email:kez...@hertz.njit.edu | do it in the station"
http://hertz.njit.edu/~kez4218 |"Running at Warp 3"
COASTRBENT
From: kez...@hertz.njit.edu (Kevin E. Zsenak)
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 22:40:21 GMT
Message-ID: <1995Feb5.2...@njitgw.njit.edu>
In article <3glmur$5...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
COASTRBENT <coast...@aol.com> wrote:
>To my understanding, Arrow engineered the Nessie to have a train going
>though each loop only when there is 3 trains on the track. It does look
>quite "cool." Of course dispatch of the trains from the drivers also has
>a lot to do with that effect. You won't see this happen during 2 train
>operation.
>
>Only one more month....
>
>Ride High
>
>Michael
Kevin wrote;
>I use to make all the operators (and some supervisors) nervous. The crue
>I was on got so good, that I could dispatch the second train while the
>first one was still climbing the lift. The first train would clear the
>lift just as the second one was 1/2 out of the station. The lift motor
>would not go into its idle speed in between cycles. Who said 1680
capacity
>couldn't be beat :).
Kevin
--
<-------------------------------------------------------->
Kevin,
Not to flame you or anything, but if I owned an amusement park and you
did that on one of my coasters.......I would FIRE YOU quicker than you
could blink your eyes.....WHAT GAVE YOU THE RIGHT TO PUT THE SAFETY OF THE
GP IN -YOUR- HANDS???? Parks have intervals on coasters for a reason....I
hope you aren't stil driving that coaster!!!!!! I bet you never thought
of "what if" situations when you did this.....
But I guess that doesn't surprise me.......you were (are) at a Six Flags
park and we all know that they can hire some stupid people......I also
blame the supervisors since they knew what you were doing.......And not to
bring ACE in the picture, (that is if you are a member) what you did shows
a lack of responsibility, and I would be ashmed to say that YOU were a
member of this club......I know I'm not the only ACEr who would feel this
way, especially when it comes to members doing stupid things on
coasters....
Michael Bent
(I'M NOT TRYING TO BE A B___ARD, BUT HEARING THAT OPERATORS DO THIS PISSES
ME OFF)
Marcus L. Prater
That's pretty impressive speed. The computer would let you dispatch
a train at ANY time? The coaster computers here at PKD (if I
understand correctly) will only let you dispatch trains when the
dispatch alarm goes off. I've never been behind the board, but I
have been on the dual dispatch button. We had the Hurler computer
stop the lift a number of times when we were going too fast. My
home ride(s) is not a coaster (I prefer the relaxing environment
of small circular rides), so when they have me on the floor, it usually
means we aren't going to run at optimum speed (PKD coasters only
run two trains anyway).
As far as the NESS is concerned, they do have a very audible
dispatch alarm on the floor. I figure that if the operators are fast
enough to dispatch as soon as it goes off, the trains will go
through the loops together (when running 3 trains). I assume they
could get the same result with 2 trains if they waited several seconds.
However, I think BGW is probably more interested in capacity than the
loop effect. I admit that I wouldn't want to sit in the station
waiting any longer than necessary.
The loops are a very cool effect, especially when you're on the train.
Any others coaster operators out there? :-)
Take it easy,
Marcus Prater
mus...@cabell.vcu.edu
Dave Althoff
The original poster is, at least partially, correct. By dispatching the
trains at the preset interval, you get a pretty much equal spacing of load
intervals in the station. Send a train too soon, and you'll have a train
in the station and another on the back brake. Follow the interval, and
you'll not have a train stacked on the back brake as long.
Every Arrow ride I have ever seen has some kind of logic-based controller.
The ride may be driven by hand, but there is a logic system watching to
prevent any accidents from happening. If the train were dispatched too
early, the most likely result would be...
(a). Confusion of the logic controller, resulting in a ride set-up
or
(b). No problem at all, provided that the minimum vehicle spacing is
maintained. The trick is that the minimum vehicle spacing is not
necessarily the dispatch interval...in fact, I would hope that it is not
the dispatch interval...thus allowing for some slop. When you tighten up
the platform operation as described, you are losing your error margin, but
because of the logic system, you are not necessarily reducing ride safety.
In fact, I have watched ride controls handle potential block spacing
errors...for example, by stopping the lift with the first car hanging over
the edge for a few moments until the other train clears the mid-course trims.
I think my position on this issue is to neither condone nor condemn the
ride operator, so long as he *does* maintain a due regard for rider safety.
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
(of course, I'd like to see CP run 5 trains on the Mine Ride again...and
last summer I stood in awe watching Amusements of America [carnival] run
*eight* cars on a Zyklon...)
--
/-\ /\ /\
/XXX\ | X\ X XX \
/XXXXX\ /XXX<%#>XXXX X|&\ XXXXX <(hard hat area... )
_/XXXXXXX\__/XXXXX==XXXXXXXX XXX=oXXXXXXXo(.sig under construction)
Chris Rake
>>lift just as the second one was 1/2 out of the station. The lift motor
>>would not go into its idle speed in between cycles. Who said 1680
>>capacity couldn't be beat :).
>Not to flame you or anything, but if I owned an amusement park and you
>did that on one of my coasters.......I would FIRE YOU quicker than you
>could blink your eyes.....WHAT GAVE YOU THE RIGHT TO PUT THE SAFETY OF THE
>GP IN -YOUR- HANDS???? Parks have intervals on coasters for a reason....I
Oh? I doubt the guests (which I was a guest - AND an employee there this
summer (see below)) were EVER at any risk. You see... the train clears
the lift before the second train clears the station! How is this putting
the guests in danger?
>But I guess that doesn't surprise me.......you were (are) at a Six Flags
>park and we all know that they can hire some stupid people......I also
>blame the supervisors since they knew what you were doing.......And not to
EXCUSE ME?!!? I was a six flags employee last summer... (actually I
got the highest host/hostess recognition one can get, and the dinky
watch to prove it), and I never met a ride op who was "stupid". Now
there were some departments that hired what I'd consider questionable
people... but not rides, (or merch, or games for that matter).
And when you compare SF parks I think you'll find the quality of hosts
at GA higher than other parks. There are more serious problems with
coasters (like that bolt that was loose this summer on GASM which caused
the track to move a bit too freely on the corkscrews (kevin - I'm right here -
right?)). Anyway.... point made.
-chris
host/sfga 1994
--
Chris Rake - Office of Information Technology - Unix User Assistant
--
WWW Home Page [UNDER CONSTANT CONSTRUCTION] == New Site! ==
http://photobooks.atdc.gatech.edu/~zync/factory.html
RobertW581
driving that coaster!!!!!!
Wouldn't make any difference if he was...
ALL Six Flags parks have the ride computers set to NOT allow dispatch
until it is safe to do so. If the driver holds the dispatch button down,
the train will leave just as soon as the computer deems it safe. If it is
set to allow a dispatch with a train on the lift, it is because the train
on the lift is past the "point of no return" meaning that it could not be
stopped with the train still on the lift. I know, since I did the program
for one of Six Flags coasters several years back. As soon as the lift
train is past PONR, the next one in the Queue House can leave and all will
still be under full control.
Pete Babic
In a previous article, dal...@freenet.columbus.oh.us (Dave Althoff) says:
>In fact, I have watched ride controls handle potential block spacing
>errors...for example, by stopping the lift with the first car hanging over
>the edge for a few moments until the other train clears the mid-course trims.
Also, I've been on some of the newer Arrow rides where the train was sent out
too early and the chain slowed down to a crawl close to the top, and when the
block was clear the chain increased in speed.
CP's Iron Dragon does this as normal operation, but other arrow coasters
have the capability if necessary. I've noticed this once or twice on Magnum
on windy days when the train takes a little longer to return to the station,
but the chain only slowed down for about 2 or 3 seconds.
--
Pete Babic - p...@po.cwru.edu |*| BEER - It's not just
Case Western Reserve University |*| for breakfast anymore!
DISCLAIMER: Opinions do not represent Case Western Reserve University
Pete Babic
In a previous article, coast...@aol.com (COASTRBENT) says:
>
>Kevin wrote;
>
>
>>I use to make all the operators (and some supervisors) nervous. The crue
>>I was on got so good, that I could dispatch the second train while the
>>first one was still climbing the lift. The first train would clear the
>>lift just as the second one was 1/2 out of the station. The lift motor
>>would not go into its idle speed in between cycles. Who said 1680
>capacity
>>couldn't be beat :).
>
>Kevin,
>Not to flame you or anything, but if I owned an amusement park and you
>did that on one of my coasters.......I would FIRE YOU quicker than you
>could blink your eyes.....WHAT GAVE YOU THE RIGHT TO PUT THE SAFETY OF THE
>GP IN -YOUR- HANDS???? Parks have intervals on coasters for a reason....I
>hope you aren't stil driving that coaster!!!!!! I bet you never thought
>of "what if" situations when you did this.....
No reason to get upset over this, in fact I would thank the operators for
running the ride so efficiently. The worst thing that could happen is a set
up of the safety system and the ride would shut down. Not dangerous at all.
Rather than being stupid, the operators seemed to have a very good
understanding of how the ride worked to run it to the limit like this.
Kevin E. Zsenak
Marcus L. Prater <mus...@cabell.vcu.edu> wrote:
>
>That's pretty impressive speed. The computer would let you dispatch
>a train at ANY time? The coaster computers here at PKD (if I
>understand correctly) will only let you dispatch trains when the
>dispatch alarm goes off. I've never been behind the board, but I
>have been on the dual dispatch button. We had the Hurler computer
>stop the lift a number of times when we were going too fast. My
>home ride(s) is not a coaster (I prefer the relaxing environment
>of small circular rides), so when they have me on the floor, it usually
>means we aren't going to run at optimum speed (PKD coasters only
>run two trains anyway).
>
Well, I should change my statement slightly. The computer won't let
you dump two trains on the lift (technically). The ride manual states
that we are not supose to dispatch a train until the one in front of
it is off the lift (clears 'A' block). But(!), the computer will give
you dispatch capability when the train is at the top of the lift hill.
To make this clearer. When car one is about 1 car length from reaching
the crown of the lift, the dispatch enable panel will become active.
Now, we figured out that it would be possible to get two trains on the
lift (although this wouldn't be cool and we'd be in big trouble). If
the train is approaching the crown and we get the dispatch lights, the
following COULD happen. Say we send that train out a tad early. Now
the train is about 1/2 out of the station. What happens if the ride
breaks down and the train @ the top of the lift stops? Well the brakes
in the station might not be able to stop the train that is being dispatched.
So it slides out of the station and hits the lift. That would suck.
By the way the GASM's computer does have an error message for this (I read
the book and found it). It reads "Fatal error, two trains on lift".
Kevin E. Zsenak
Chris Rake <cca...@prism.gatech.edu> wrote:
>
>>Not to flame you or anything, but if I owned an amusement park and you
>>did that on one of my coasters.......I would FIRE YOU quicker than you
>>could blink your eyes.....WHAT GAVE YOU THE RIGHT TO PUT THE SAFETY OF THE
>>GP IN -YOUR- HANDS???? Parks have intervals on coasters for a reason....I
>
Chris didn't quote the name and for whatever reason my news server didn't
pick this up.
Well. I posted a detailed message on the exact dispatch interval that the
computer will allow. Read that. I want to stress that the GP was never
in danger by my early dispatching. I knew the GASM inside and out. I
knew every sound that coaster made. I knew exactly where each train was
just by the sounds they were making. The computer would tell me a train
is in A B or C block. Well I knew exactly were they were in the block
(even when the trains were out of sight) just by the way they sounded.
I knew when a train needed service, just by the way it sounded. Plus
the GP seemed to love only having a 45minutes wait when line was extending
out the queue house and around to the parachute entrance. I couldn't
believe it when the said they only waited 45 minutes.
The capcitys were great (the lowest of my day shift crew was usually 1500
per hour). Unfortunatly (and for good reason), brakes were installed
after the first loop. That wasted the dispatch intervals. Now if you
send the train @ the offical dispatch interval the ride just might setup.
So, we had to increase the wait time. Thus the capacity of the ride went
down.
The ride operators are @ SFGadv care a lot about their coaster. Many safety
violations (either something wrong with the track or train) were found by
ride employees. Many of these violations could have resulted in fatality.
I myself recieve a $500 savings bond for finding a problem with the GASM
trains. I'm not going to go into details but the finding resulted in a
complete redesign of the shoulder restraints on all the Arrow trains
that SF owned(country wide). If you went to SFGAdv. in the summer of
93 and wondered why there was a huge line and only two trains running...
well the other was getting a re-fit.
>
>>But I guess that doesn't surprise me.......you were (are) at a Six Flags
>>park and we all know that they can hire some stupid people......I also
>>blame the supervisors since they knew what you were doing.......And not to
>
>And when you compare SF parks I think you'll find the quality of hosts
>at GA higher than other parks. There are more serious problems with
>coasters (like that bolt that was loose this summer on GASM which caused
>the track to move a bit too freely on the corkscrews (kevin - I'm right here -
>right?)). Anyway.... point made.
>
(loose...more like broke)
Yes, the bolt was discovered by maintence, but was pointed to the problem
by one of the "stupid" ride operators. The operator noticed that the
corkscrew was flexing while the train was going through it. Now the
corkscrew always flexed (because of its design), but he noticed that it
was flexing more than normal. Boy I wonder what could have happen to the
queue house if the "stupid" operator didn't notice this. For those that
don't know, the cork screw goes over the GASMs queue line. So I guess
if the corkscrew broke you could have had a nice train sitting in the
queue house.
SFGAdv. employees are generalized as rude. I will give the guest that.
They are rude. But they are not stupid.
(boy with comments like these good thing I don't plan to go back to
Six Flags this year)
Dave Althoff
No, not really. Just a situation the computer doesn't know how to
handle...so the computer shuts down the ride entirely...sets all the
brakes and shuts down the lift. I imagine that restart would require
re-setting the computer, then manually cycling the lift power until the
first train clears, shutting it down again until the first train clears
the next block, and restarting the system again. Seems to me that it
would technically be one of the easiest set-ups to clear. Of course, that
assumes that the manual override controls actually exist... 8-|
I'm just remembering the control panel for the Hoosier Hurricane...
o bars open
o bars close
o dispatch
No control over station brakes, trims, etc. Oh, there is a co-dispatch
button as well, but the operators noticed that the industrial push-button
has a drilled shroud, so a well-placed screwdriver effectively disabled
the co-dispatch requirement.
Which brings up another interesting point. What do you think of
co-dispatch systems (second push-button more-than-arm's-length from tower
must be pushed to send train)? I've seen them on some (not all) coasters
at Kings Island and Kentucky Kingdom, but not at all at Cedar Point or
Geauga Lake. On the one hand, this means that at least two operators must
approve before a train can be dispatched. On the other hand, it means
that no one person has total responsibility for sending a train. I would
think that, especially near the end of the season, the operators might
become less vigilant, assuming that if there were something wrong, the
other person wouldn't allow the train to go. For that matter, to what
degree is "dispatched train not ready" a problem? Granted, I've seen some
pretty poor attitudes displayed on coaster platforms, with CP's Corkscrew
one of the worst offenders...
Oh, I should probably re-state my (lack of) qualifications in this
discussion...I am familiar with the theory of block spacing, I've looked
at a number of control panels, and examined some of my favorite rides in
some detail. But I've never operated, programmed, repaired, or designed
an operating coaster control system.
Just thinking again (dangerous!)
--Dave Althoff, Jr.
Lost in the woods...
: "Fatal error - two trains on lift"
An observation, I noticed that at Cedar Point on the Raptor,
the loading side of the platform does have buttons for the
ride host at the rear of the train. I thought that it
was for a co-dispatch, but I'm not sure. My roomate at CP
worked Raptor and I could ask him.
Just something else to ponder....
Later,
Brian Spolnicki
****************************************************************************
"When the floors gone, you're gone!"
Raptor Ride Host
****************************************************************************
Marcus L. Prater
Personally, I prefer the dual-dispatch system (all PKD coasters use
this). One person can't have their eyes everwhere at the same time.
Granted, the board operator does have a few seconds to stop a train
that has been dispatched, but this method is safer. It does raise the
question of "who's watching the ride." EVERYONE is supposed to be,
but a lazy operator could very easily just push the button "knowing"
that the other person is watching.
NO dispatch button should be pushed until everyone on the floor is
showing a clear "thumbs up" or other ready signal, IMHO. The safety
system serves only as a BACKUP for the operators. If you have a train
stuck on the E-brakes and a train going up the lift, do you wait for
the computer to stop the lift? NO!! Efficiency is important, but safety
should always be top priority.
Marcus Prater
mus...@cabell.vcu.edu
RobertW581
about 2 years ago incorporated the 2 buttons into the arrival process as
well. It now takes both the driver and one loader to bring a train INTO
the queue as well as dispatch it. The logic is set up so that both
buttons have to be released after dispatching a train before the next one
can be brought in.
Seems strange to me, but that's what they want.
Bill Buckley
>In a previous article, coast...@aol.com (COASTRBENT) writes...
>>Kevin wrote;
>>I use to make all the operators (and some supervisors) nervous. The crue
>>I was on got so good, that I could dispatch the second train while the
>>first one was still climbing the lift. The first train would clear the
>>lift just as the second one was 1/2 out of the station.
>Kevin,
>Not to flame you or anything, but if I owned an amusement park and you
>did that on one of my coasters.......I would FIRE YOU quicker than you
>could blink your eyes.....WHAT GAVE YOU THE RIGHT TO PUT THE SAFETY OF THE
>GP IN -YOUR- HANDS???? Parks have intervals on coasters for a reason....I
>hope you aren't stil driving that coaster!!!!!! I bet you never thought
>of "what if" situations when you did this.....
Kevin's understandable rebuttle aside, I do have to agree with Michael's
point regarding "lofty" coaster operators who somehow feel they know so
much about a ride that they can operate outside of the guidelines setup
by the manufacturer.
One example of this is the West Edmonton Mindbender and it's famous fatal
accident in 1986.
More recently, we have the folks at CP thinking they know how to run RAPTOR
the _right_ way -- leaving operators and GP alike thinking it's B&M's problem
that the ride was setting up like crazy (remember the discussion on B&M's
design quality on-line here??). Truth being that Walter Bolliger personally
made trips (I heard 5 in total) out to CP last year to re-program the ride's
software for three train operation. He would leave, and the ride op's would
take the situation into their own hands after they felt 'comfortable' with
running the ride, and boom -- setups! That's too bad that they couldn't trust
(or didn't like?) B&M's program for operation.
I look at the way the ride ops add and remove a train on the CI Cyclone --
WITH a train engaged on the circuit with passengers! They just whip them
on and off without much fess, or sacrificing throughput. Do I agree with
this process? No, but that's Coney for the most part.
Happy rails, ....
Buck .++++++++.\
-- .+++. .+++++++++++++++.\
... .+++++++. .+++++++++++++++++++++.\
.+++++. .+++++++++++. .+++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
.+++++++++. .++++++ William J. Buckley, Jr. +++++++++++++++++++.
.+++++++++++++...++++++++ buc...@powdml.enet.dec.com ++++++++++++++++++++++.
----------------------------- Coast...@aol.com ---------------------------
----- Support an American Tradition ... RIDE MORE ROLLER COASTERS !!!!! -----
Dave Althoff
: Six Flags parks have used the dual dispatch for several years now, and
Possible explanation...
Recall what I said about the Hoosier Hurricane...with a well-placed
screwdriver to replace one of the platform attendants. By requiring that
the co-dispatch switch be released to allow the next train to enter the
station, ride crews are effectively prevented from circumventing the
co-dispatch feature.
Just a thought...
Oh, and Pete Babic corrected me on the Raptor situation, indicating that a
co-dispatch switch does exist on that ride.
Kevin E. Zsenak
post. I'm happy to see that many people on this news group understand
coaster safety systems. The fully computerized coasters (like GASM) are
really quite good (not to mention impressive to look at when the big doors
to the Allen Bradley are open). Computerized coasters provide many great
benifits. First off they take the brakes away from the operator. This is
a good thing. It is no longer a life or death situation if the operator gets
destracted. In theory (and I hope this never happens to anyone) the operator
could die and the passengers would be completly safe as the ride stops @
its designated stop points.
I am also glad that I got a lot of support on this issue. I also got a lot
of support (an guest compliments) from ACE members @ the park. They told
me that they were impressed that the only place the trains were stopping
was the station (that's tuff on the GASM but a good crew use to be able
to do it...I really don't think it is possible with the 'improved' braking
system).