[DS9] Lynch's Spoiler Review; "The Search, Part II"
Geoffrey DeWan
: -- There is still no valid reason for why Odo was suddenly affected with his
: compulsion to return home at this particular point in time. Yes, the head
: Changeling [assuming she was she was the leader at all, but she certainly
: seemed to be] said that the compulsion to return home was "implanted in
: [Odo's] genetic makeup", or some such technobabble. But that doesn't change
: what I said last week: Odo's been in the Gamma Quadrant before without
: feeling the urge. This is more careless than anything else, but it rankles.
I got the impression from part one that the trigger to Odo's compulsion
was the sight of the nebula. The was no probem with Odo until that
point.
--
============================================================================
Geoffrey DeWan gde...@prairienet.org
Alan D. Earhart
(Geoffrey DeWan) wrote:
> Timothy W. Lynch (tly...@cco.caltech.edu) wrote:
> : -- There is still no valid reason for why Odo was suddenly affected
with his
> : compulsion to return home at this particular point in time. Yes, the head
> : Changeling [assuming she was she was the leader at all, but she certainly
> : seemed to be] said that the compulsion to return home was "implanted in
> : [Odo's] genetic makeup", or some such technobabble. But that doesn't
change
> : what I said last week: Odo's been in the Gamma Quadrant before without
> : feeling the urge. This is more careless than anything else, but it rankles.
>
> I got the impression from part one that the trigger to Odo's compulsion
> was the sight of the nebula. The was no probem with Odo until that
> point.
I also thought that this was the case. However, Odo specifically says that
he has felt the compulsion since he entered the Gamma quadrant. I feel
that it would have made _much_ more sense for Odo to have said that he
felt the compulsion since seeing/hearing about the nebula.
Well, what should we expect with an ep that has a magic ending? I need to
go check and see who was given credit for the writing. A serious net.slap
is needed (imho, of course).
Timothy W. Lynch
Search, Part II". If you haven't seen the show and don't want to be spoiled,
consider yourself warned.
In brief: Oy. I'm less concerned about the characters now, but if this is
the sort of *story* we're in for ... uh-oh.
But first, a quick two-line summary for those who aren't sure of episode
titles:
------
Summary: While Kira and Odo get to know Odo's people, Sisko returns from the
Gamma Quadrant to find negotiations taking a decidedly strange and sinister
turn.
------
Hm. Well, there's good news and bad news about this second half of "The
Search".
The good news is that my worries after part 1 about the *characters* being
somehow warped into aberrant versions of themselves seem to be unfounded.
Odo, in particular, was the most out of character last week; and while I
still think his behavior in part 1 was problematic, he seemed *far* more
sensible here. Kira was both sensibly written and sensibly played (except in
one instance, where she tells Odo what she's planning, potentially telling
*everyone else* in the process; not a smart move), and most of the characters
back on the station made a great deal of sense and kept my attention. So on
that level, part 2 did a good job of easing my fears.
And yet...
If "The Search" is any indication, DS9 is catching the Dumb Story Syndrome.
Many of the implausibilities present last week, including ones so huge and so
telegraphed that I even said to friends "nah, that's intentional; no one
would leave a hole *that* big", were left to fester here while we watched a
30-minute "experiment" unfold. And then, to add to it, the explanations we
*did* get for much of the episode were most unsatisfying. For instance:
-- There is still no valid reason for why Odo was suddenly affected with his
compulsion to return home at this particular point in time. Yes, the head
Changeling [assuming she was she was the leader at all, but she certainly
seemed to be] said that the compulsion to return home was "implanted in
[Odo's] genetic makeup", or some such technobabble. But that doesn't change
what I said last week: Odo's been in the Gamma Quadrant before without
feeling the urge. This is more careless than anything else, but it rankles.
-- There is still no explanation given for how Odo and Kira got off the
Defiant last time around. Sure, it'd be easy to speculate that the Jem'Hadar
realized Odo was a Founder (or at least one of their race) and decided to let
them leave, but if so I imagine Odo would remember that as odd. Certainly,
his mental faculties weren't in short supply once he reached his home...
-- The Romulan exclusion from the peace talks makes zero sense, even given
that it's a test. Its whole purpose was solely to get Sisko ticked off
(especially the more-than-a-bit-exploitative death of T'Rul), and there was
no logic given for it at all other than "it's what the Founders want". WHY?
There are others as well, but I think I've said enough on that score. Things
happened just for the sake of happening, and I've never been much for that.
I can excuse it, though, on those occasions when the story is *so* good that
one or two coincidences or implausibilities are needed to get us there.
Unfortunately, this whole story about the Changelings being the Founders is
one that, in my opinion, was ill-conceived from the start. I know that the
speculation about it started about two seconds after "The Jem'Hadar" aired
last year, and I suspect that the thinking went "wouldn't it be cool if..."
and proceeded from there.
Alas, my answer to that question is "no, it wouldn't be cool at all; it'd be
dumb." The logic is very suspect here; the Changelings have had bad
experiences with "solids" and their resentment, right? So what possible
thought justifies the idea of forcing their will on *all* solids, so as to
give them both substantial contact with Borath's people *and* to give every
subject of the Dominion a legitimate _reason_ for resentment and attack? Odo
has been shown to be grim on many occasions, for certain, but he's never been
depicted as stupid. The Founders' reasoning here is not only barbaric (as
was pointed out), but simply short-sighted on a host of levels.
Granted, this isn't necessarily a fatal flaw -- perhaps the eventual way to
solve the problems with the Dominion is to convince them of this fact. If
so, that will provide the idea with a little depth, and will help
substantially. However, given the lack of anyone pointing that out at
present, I have to say that I found the whole thing cheesy. (Maybe I'm just
pining for intelligent villains. Some of the Cardassians we've seen have
played that role; if they're to be shunted aside for the sake of burly
Jem'Hadar thugs, I have to wonder what the mindset is at Paramount Central
Command.)
Even more than the basic silliness of the Changelings/Founders link, though,
I found myself annoyed for what it did to Odo finding his people. Odo's
search for his family isn't looking for *people*; it's looking for an
identity. There was a vast amount of potential in scenes such as those with
Odo's guide instructing him on what his gifts are meant to do, and what a
Changeling really *is*. Odo had the opportunity here to learn so much about
himself, and we had the opportunity to learn it with him. Not any more,
though; now that Odo's people are automatically relegated to the land of Bad
Guys, Odo won't have those lessons. Maybe that's considered tragically noble
in some circles; I consider it tragic, period.
(Note: I expect some will rebut that with "well, what about Worf? He's
rejected some of what the Klingons do." Yes, he has -- *after* he learned
more fully what it means to be Klingon, both in "society" and in his own
heart. Odo hasn't figured out either yet, and has now been denied the
opportunity to really choose.)
Now, an interlude to talk about the *good* things in the episode. :-)
First on the list is something I've already mentioned: the characters. With
only a few exceptions (primarily Kira's silliness in telling what might have
been a garden full of Changelings her intentions), they were both
intelligently written and true to the natures we have seen over the past two
years. Add to that the fact that everyone did a good job performing their
roles as well (particularly Rene Auberjonois, who was stunning), and you have
some good stuff.
Jonathan Frakes also did a good job directing his first DS9 outing. While I
wouldn't chalk this up with such work as "Reunion" or "Cause and Effect",
both Frakes-directed pieces as well, I do think the pace seemed very snappy
and the atmosphere was generally right (especially on Odo's side of the
plot). The chase sequence at the end, in addition, had some very nice camera
work in it that caught my eye.
In other words, we had characterization, acting, and directing all as pluses
here. That leaves simply the story they had to tell -- and as I've been
saying, that's where it all falls down.
Besides the implausibility factors, I have to also go on record as saying
that I absolutely despise endings of the "and then they woke up" variety.
This isn't to say that I haven't liked some stories that have it -- but they
have to be amazingly, *amazingly* good up to that point and find something
novel to do with the "it was all an illusion" ending as well. This, simply
put, didn't do either.
The illusion, for one, was rather trivially easy to spot. The fact that we
found Sisko and Bashir suddenly on a shuttle when we last saw them in a
Jem'Hadar clinch suggested that we definitely missed something -- and
Odo/Kira's escape notwithstanding, the easy thing to assume is that *they*
missed something as well, particularly since they seem uninjured. Add to
that things like Nechayev calling Sisko "Benjamin" and referring to his wish
for an Admiralty (a wish he rather explicitly rejected last time), and of
course the sudden demise of Garak, and you had something that spelled
"temporary" in large neon letters.
More to the point, though, what was served here? Is the threat of the
Dominion gone? No. Has Sisko made any progress to ease the threat to the
Federation, the quadrant, the station, or Bajor? No. Did we accomplish
anything? Once you take the 20-30 minutes of total Odo-centered time out,
no -- which means we had an hour of filler. Not a good idea in general, and
certainly not for a season premiere.
Basically, then, I found "The Search" as a whole an *extremely* frustrating
episode. There were and are lots of good stories that could be told about a
search for the Founders or Odo finally coming home; unfortunately, this
wasn't one of them.
So, a few short takes and then a wrapup:
-- Something I meant to mention last week: Dax's hair. Without sounding too
opinionated, let's just say that we've decided one of her previous hosts must
have gone by the name Elvis Dax and leave it at that. :-)
-- I hope we *still* see an issue of Odo's status on the station; that
question was swept under the rug this week. If Eddington is inexplicably
taken back to the Home for Disused Plot Devices next week, it won't be good.
-- One very nice touch in this story: if you look at Odo's homeworld, you
will see a pedestal in the background that bears a rather strong resemblance
to the one seen in "The Alternate" last year. It seems there *was* a
connection between it and Odo; interesting.
-- Dennis Christopher was a bit more subdued than I expected from his past
work, but worked just fine as Borath (at least within the illusion; his last
scene was a little whiny for my tastes).
-- Another question in the vein of "Is it obvious, or are we mentally ill?":
Jake to Sisko: "Pass the potatoes, Dad. Dad? Dad?"
Us: "Dad, stop building Devil's Tower out of your potatoes..."
Anyone want to weigh in with a verdict? :-)
-- On the other hand, I thought Quark's token scene was pretty terrible this
week, particularly his dream. Were the writers *trying* to be offensive
here?
That should about do it. I wish I could say I was pleased with the show, but
I'd be wrong. Better luck next time -- and let's get back to internal issues
and not this great Threat From Beyond!
So, summing up:
Plot: Well, loosely speaking, yes -- but rife with implausibilities and
with a major cheat of an ending.
Plot Handling: Not too bad; Frakes definitely did what he could.
Characters/Acting: Generally solid.
The plot hurts an awful lot, though -- I'd have to say...
OVERALL: A 4. Let's hope this isn't a trend.
NEXT WEEK:
K'Quark?
Tim Lynch (Harvard-Westlake School, Science Dept.)
BITNET: tlynch@citjulie
INTERNET: tly...@juliet.caltech.edu
UUCP: ...!ucbvax!tlynch%juliet.ca...@hamlet.caltech.edu
"I don't believe it; I'm talking to a tree."
-- Kira
--
Copyright 1994, Timothy W. Lynch. All rights reserved, but feel free to ask...
This article is explicitly prohibited from being used in any off-net
compilation without due attribution and *express written consent of the
author*. Walnut Creek and other CD-ROM distributors, take note.
Ted McCoy
Timothy W. Lynch <tly...@juliet.caltech.edu> wrote:
>WARNING: This article contains spoiler information regarding DS9's "The
>Search, Part II". If you haven't seen the show and don't want to be spoiled,
>consider yourself warned.
>In brief: Oy. I'm less concerned about the characters now, but if this is
>the sort of *story* we're in for ... uh-oh.
Oddly I disagree with a lot of your specific comments below, but I agree with
this conclusion.
>-- There is still no valid reason for why Odo was suddenly affected with his
>compulsion to return home at this particular point in time. Yes, the head
>Changeling [assuming she was she was the leader at all, but she certainly
>seemed to be] said that the compulsion to return home was "implanted in
>[Odo's] genetic makeup", or some such technobabble. But that doesn't change
>what I said last week: Odo's been in the Gamma Quadrant before without
>feeling the urge. This is more careless than anything else, but it rankles.
I'm not sure if those explanations for why Odo was drawn back to his home
planet and why he was sent out in the first place were the truth. That episode
last season where Odo changed into a monster seemed to raise some unanswered
questions about Odo's nature, and I think some of those questions could tie
into this. (Assuming they're planning on answering these questions and dealing
with these issues at some point. Which is not always a safe assumption for
Trek, although it's been safer for DS9 than it was for TNG, so far.)
>Unfortunately, this whole story about the Changelings being the Founders is
>one that, in my opinion, was ill-conceived from the start. I know that the
>speculation about it started about two seconds after "The Jem'Hadar" aired
>last year, and I suspect that the thinking went "wouldn't it be cool if..."
>and proceeded from there.
>
>Alas, my answer to that question is "no, it wouldn't be cool at all; it'd be
>dumb." The logic is very suspect here; the Changelings have had bad
>experiences with "solids" and their resentment, right? So what possible
>thought justifies the idea of forcing their will on *all* solids, so as to
>give them both substantial contact with Borath's people *and* to give every
>subject of the Dominion a legitimate _reason_ for resentment and attack? Odo
>has been shown to be grim on many occasions, for certain, but he's never been
>depicted as stupid. The Founders' reasoning here is not only barbaric (as
>was pointed out), but simply short-sighted on a host of levels.
Hmm. Unless the Changelings want to crawl into dark corners and spend their
lives hiding, it's probably inevitable that they're going to have contact
with "solids." And given the power they obviously can exercise through The
Dominion over "solids," this actually seems like an effective way for them
to protect themselves. Giving people legitimate reason to resent you isn't
a big deal when you have the kind of power that the Dominion seems to have.
Especially if you're going to be be resented by a lot of people no matter
what you do, unless you just hide in dark corners.
Their response is drastic, but I don't think it's stupid. I think we're
dealing with an alien psychology which is reacting to this problem in a more
severe manner than most of us would react to it. And this is consistent
with Odo's behavior, isn't it?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your argument here?
>Even more than the basic silliness of the Changelings/Founders link, though,
>I found myself annoyed for what it did to Odo finding his people. Odo's
>search for his family isn't looking for *people*; it's looking for an
>identity. There was a vast amount of potential in scenes such as those with
>Odo's guide instructing him on what his gifts are meant to do, and what a
>Changeling really *is*. Odo had the opportunity here to learn so much about
>himself, and we had the opportunity to learn it with him. Not any more,
>though; now that Odo's people are automatically relegated to the land of Bad
>Guys, Odo won't have those lessons. Maybe that's considered tragically noble
>in some circles; I consider it tragic, period.
You're sure Odo won't have those lessons? I think he may -- but those
lessons won't be exactly what we (or he) expected. I think we'll see Odo
returning to his home planet at some point. And I think these scenes could
be every bit as powerful as the scenes you were anticipating.
>(Note: I expect some will rebut that with "well, what about Worf? He's
>rejected some of what the Klingons do." Yes, he has -- *after* he learned
>more fully what it means to be Klingon, both in "society" and in his own
>heart. Odo hasn't figured out either yet, and has now been denied the
>opportunity to really choose.)
I expect he's going to be forced to make the choice later on. At least, I hope
he's forced to make the choice. And he really can't make that choice until
he's come to understand his people. Didn't that female Changeling say at the
end of the episode that he would feel himself drawn back to his home planet?
Actually, it looks like they writers are setting up an internal conflict
with Odo between the nature of his people and the nature of the "solids"
who he's lived with for most of his life (with Kira and Quark being his
strongest ties to the "solid" world, I think). I kind of expect we'll see him
return to his home world to work out this internal battle later in this
season.
I have no problem with the Changelings being members of the Dominion. And
I found their bitterness towards solids to be both fascinating and chilling.
But...I think this explanation of the Dominion kind of limits what can be
done with the Dominion. Especially if, as seemed to be implied at one point,
all members of the Dominion are Changelings. (Wasn't there a statement like
"We are the Dominion"?) I'd prefer to see the Dominion be more complex,
with a variety of different races each with its own nature and motives. And I
think more could have been done with the Changelings if they hadn't been made
into simple "enemies of the Federation." Although I disagree with your
argument that making them "the bad guys" limits their possible interactions
with Odo, I do think it limits their possible interactions with the Federation,
which is disappointing. I prefer the more subtle political power struggles
such as the ones with the Romulans or Cardassians. And I think the Changelings
in particular had potential to be a lot more than this. But maybe it's too
early to really say how this will turn out. At any rate, I thought that both
the Founders and the Changelings would have been more interesting than this.
(Actually, I was hoping those critters from "Conspiracy" would figure into
the Dominion somehow.)
>Now, an interlude to talk about the *good* things in the episode. :-)
>First on the list is something I've already mentioned: the characters. With
>only a few exceptions (primarily Kira's silliness in telling what might have
>been a garden full of Changelings her intentions), they were both
>intelligently written and true to the natures we have seen over the past two
>years. Add to that the fact that everyone did a good job performing their
>roles as well (particularly Rene Auberjonois, who was stunning), and you have
>some good stuff.
Agreed, and I also thought Avery Brooks was unusually strong in this episode.
I've never disliked him on this show (as some people have), but I thought he
was outstanding this week.
>In other words, we had characterization, acting, and directing all as pluses
>here. That leaves simply the story they had to tell -- and as I've been
>saying, that's where it all falls down.
Also some great music (by Jay Chattaway).
>Besides the implausibility factors, I have to also go on record as saying
>that I absolutely despise endings of the "and then they woke up" variety.
>This isn't to say that I haven't liked some stories that have it -- but they
>have to be amazingly, *amazingly* good up to that point and find something
>novel to do with the "it was all an illusion" ending as well. This, simply
>put, didn't do either.
Well, especially when TNG has used this ending so many times.
>The illusion, for one, was rather trivially easy to spot. The fact that we
>found Sisko and Bashir suddenly on a shuttle when we last saw them in a
>Jem'Hadar clinch suggested that we definitely missed something -- and
>Odo/Kira's escape notwithstanding, the easy thing to assume is that *they*
>missed something as well, particularly since they seem uninjured. Add to
>that things like Nechayev calling Sisko "Benjamin" and referring to his wish
>for an Admiralty (a wish he rather explicitly rejected last time), and of
>course the sudden demise of Garak, and you had something that spelled
>"temporary" in large neon letters.
Okay, first, I knew the surprise ending before I saw this episode. And I'm
glad I did, or I would have been disappointed, I think. Specifically:
- I would have wanted more of a transition between part one and part two.
Especially the scenes where Dax and O'Brien meet the Founders -- those could
have been really fascinating, and I would have been irritated to see the
show skip over them.
- I would have wanted the events related to the treaty (the response from
Bajor and the Romulans, for instance) explored in more detail. There was
enough happening here to take up two or three normal episodes. All sorts
of potentially interesting scenes that just weren't happening because
there wasn't time.
- If the Odo subplot had been unconnected, I would have been irritated by
how much time was being spent on it when the show should have been
spending more time on its main plot.
- I would have expected Sisko, Dax, and the others to take a more active stance
against the treaty earlier than they did...as it was, they didn't really do
anything until they decided to blow up the wormhole, and, if we were to
believe the events were really happening, I would have expected the
characters to be more actively participating.
As it is, all of these objections are explained by having the mail plot turn
out to be a dream. But if I had watched this episode without knowing the
ending, I think all of those would have been bothering me. Paramount wanted
a surprise ending, which is fine -- but I think they definitely miscalculated
on this one. The episode probably would have been stronger if they had been
more honest about the premise.
>More to the point, though, what was served here? Is the threat of the
>Dominion gone? No. Has Sisko made any progress to ease the threat to the
>Federation, the quadrant, the station, or Bajor? No. Did we accomplish
>anything? Once you take the 20-30 minutes of total Odo-centered time out,
>no -- which means we had an hour of filler. Not a good idea in general, and
>certainly not for a season premiere.
Well, the invasion apparently was delayed a little bit. The Federation now
knows more about the Dominion and their motivation. And the Dominion knows
a lot more about the Federation side of the wormhole. I wouldn't call this
episode an hour of filler. On the other hand, I think the things that were
accomplished by this episode could have been accomplished a lot more
efficiently.
>-- I hope we *still* see an issue of Odo's status on the station; that
>question was swept under the rug this week. If Eddington is inexplicably
>taken back to the Home for Disused Plot Devices next week, it won't be good.
If there aren't *major* questions raised by Starfleet about Odo's status, based
on what has been learned about the Changelings, I'll be really really
disappointed.
>-- One very nice touch in this story: if you look at Odo's homeworld, you
>will see a pedestal in the background that bears a rather strong resemblance
>to the one seen in "The Alternate" last year. It seems there *was* a
>connection between it and Odo; interesting.
Hey, I didn't notice that. Cool. They'd better explore that some more later
in the series too, says me.
>-- Another question in the vein of "Is it obvious, or are we mentally ill?":
> Jake to Sisko: "Pass the potatoes, Dad. Dad? Dad?"
> Us: "Dad, stop building Devil's Tower out of your potatoes..."
> Anyone want to weigh in with a verdict? :-)
Yup, yup! Actually, I find myself making jokes about Devil's Tower everytime
I see people eating potatoes in a movie or tv show, whether they're acting
spacy or not.
>So, summing up:
>
>Plot: Well, loosely speaking, yes -- but rife with implausibilities and
> with a major cheat of an ending.
>Plot Handling: Not too bad; Frakes definitely did what he could.
>Characters/Acting: Generally solid.
>
>The plot hurts an awful lot, though -- I'd have to say...
I liked virtually every scene in this episode, when the scenes are taken on
their own. There were a lot of character scenes with Odo that I especially
enjoyed. Actually, given the basic outline of this episode, I think they
did absolutely as good a job with it as they could have. I really only
have two problems with this episode:
1) I wish the Changelings had been members of the Dominion but not actually
the Founders.
2) I wish the show had not tried to make the testing-the-crew bit into a
surprise ending. Dealing with this honestly throughout the episode could
have been a lot more interesting and effective. I'm not saying showing
the same events but letting the audience know this is a dream in advance --
I'm saying putting the crew through all sorts of interrogation and mind
control, with lots of really intense scenes between the crew and the
Jem'Hadar between maybe a few really strange virtual reality scenes --
something to keep both the characters and the audience a little more off
balance. At the end we'd know that the invasion has been delayed, but we
wouldn't be completely sure what has happened beyond that.
>OVERALL: A 4. Let's hope this isn't a trend.
Well, on a scale from 0 to 5, I'd put this at a 4, but closer to a 3.5 than
a 4.5. (Meaning, between a 7 or 8 on the 10-point scale.) Most of the episode
seemed spectacular to me, in terms of direction and dialogue and acting and
music and whatever. I'm disappointed with what the Dominion has turned out to
be, but I thought the Changeling scenes at the end were interesting and
chilling. The bulk of the episode was a cheat (the dream stuff), but actually,
if you watch it knowing that it's a dream and take it on that level, I think
the various character reactions are rather interesting.
Unless they try to stick a surprise ending onto every episode, I'm not worried
about this becoming a trend.
>NEXT WEEK:
>K'Quark?
Looks like next week's episode should be really funny...so is Quark back at
the station yet, or does this happen on his way back? There are a lot of
implications of this week's episode that *must* be dealt with, or at least
mentioned, next week. Especially about Odo. If next week's episode is about
Quark on his way back, it might just be a change of pace before we deal with
implications of the premiere in the following episode. Hopefully.
Ted
Mariette
said "We were hunted, beaten and killed..."
How could you beat a Changeling? (with a Mixmaster, maybe?) They could
just liquefy, or turn into a rock or something. And how could you kill
one?
Put it in a dehydrator?
All I can think of is that she's lying to him, trying to gain sympathy,
and there is another, more plausible real reason.
Mariette
--
*******************************************************************
* Tom &/or Mariette K |"No, I did not vanquish the Nibble-Pibblies*
* tk...@halcyon.com | because you just made them up!" *
*******************************************************************
Jason John Seaver
>Search, Part II". If you haven't seen the show and don't want to be spoiled,
>consider yourself warned.
>In brief: Oy. I'm less concerned about the characters now, but if this is
>the sort of *story* we're in for ... uh-oh.
>
>that it's a test. Its whole purpose was solely to get Sisko ticked off
>(especially the more-than-a-bit-exploitative death of T'Rul), and there was
>no logic given for it at all other than "it's what the Founders want". WHY?
A lot of this I was able to chalk up to the Founders being so
different we may not be able to fully understand how their minds work. It's
sort of a desperation explanation, on the one hand; on the other, why aren't
more aliens impossible to understand?
>Alas, my answer to that question is "no, it wouldn't be cool at all; it'd be
>dumb." The logic is very suspect here; the Changelings have had bad
>experiences with "solids" and their resentment, right? So what possible
>thought justifies the idea of forcing their will on *all* solids, so as to
>give them both substantial contact with Borath's people *and* to give every
>subject of the Dominion a legitimate _reason_ for resentment and attack? Odo
>has been shown to be grim on many occasions, for certain, but he's never been
>depicted as stupid. The Founders' reasoning here is not only barbaric (as
>was pointed out), but simply short-sighted on a host of levels.
The Dominion appears to be kept in line by threat of force only
minimally; the indications from previous episodes had been that the culture
of the subjagated peoples was crushed so throroughly that revolution was not
so much inconceivable as not necessarily in the rebel's best interests. The
Dominion seems to be highly specialized - all the Jem'Hadar seem to be from
the same speices (for no good reason I could think of at the time), and
Eris and Borath both had similar jobs. If the Dominion has so thoroughly
broken its subjects' will for the purpose of "order", this could make sense.
For sanity's sake this is what I'll go with until DS9 says otherwise (which
will probably take maybe two weeks).
>present, I have to say that I found the whole thing cheesy. (Maybe I'm just
>pining for intelligent villains. Some of the Cardassians we've seen have
>played that role; if they're to be shunted aside for the sake of burly
>Jem'Hadar thugs, I have to wonder what the mindset is at Paramount Central
>Command.)
Hopefully the Dominion will recover from a shaky start the way the
Cardassians did - I was unimpressed with The Wounded, but the sneaky, clever
Cardassians like Gul Dukat and Garak has impressed me.
>Even more than the basic silliness of the Changelings/Founders link, though,
>I found myself annoyed for what it did to Odo finding his people. Odo's
>search for his family isn't looking for *people*; it's looking for an
>identity. There was a vast amount of potential in scenes such as those with
>Odo's guide instructing him on what his gifts are meant to do, and what a
>Changeling really *is*. Odo had the opportunity here to learn so much about
>himself, and we had the opportunity to learn it with him. Not any more,
>though; now that Odo's people are automatically relegated to the land of Bad
>Guys, Odo won't have those lessons. Maybe that's considered tragically noble
>in some circles; I consider it tragic, period.
Hopefully the writers and Rene Auberjonois will take this idea and
run with it. I hope to see Odo display a combination of shame and longing in
future Dominion episodes; I also sort of like that Odo remained somewhat
alien; though he tends to have "solid" values, he didn't pontificate about
how he would prefer to remain as an individual rather than participate in
"The Great Link".
>Now, an interlude to talk about the *good* things in the episode. :-)
>
>Jonathan Frakes also did a good job directing his first DS9 outing. While I
>wouldn't chalk this up with such work as "Reunion" or "Cause and Effect",
>both Frakes-directed pieces as well, I do think the pace seemed very snappy
>and the atmosphere was generally right (especially on Odo's side of the
>plot). The chase sequence at the end, in addition, had some very nice camera
>work in it that caught my eye.
Very impressed. If this is supposed to be a continuing "new look"
for DS9, I approve with one reservation: keep the political stuff integrated
in the show. When DS9 came out, it was touted as more action-oriented than
TNG but what ended up happening was DS9 having more thoughtful, "talky"
episodes while TNG became much more action-oriented. This looks an awful
lot like DS9 picking up the slack for the other series; maybe it will get
back to normal when Voyager starts up.
>The illusion, for one, was rather trivially easy to spot. The fact that we
>found Sisko and Bashir suddenly on a shuttle when we last saw them in a
>Jem'Hadar clinch suggested that we definitely missed something -- and
>Odo/Kira's escape notwithstanding, the easy thing to assume is that *they*
>missed something as well, particularly since they seem uninjured. Add to
>that things like Nechayev calling Sisko "Benjamin" and referring to his wish
>for an Admiralty (a wish he rather explicitly rejected last time), and of
>course the sudden demise of Garak, and you had something that spelled
>"temporary" in large neon letters.
I smelled a rat when Dax and O'Brien just popped up perfectly fine;
after that I wasn't really alerted until Garak bought it. Things moved fast
enough that I didn't look too carefully. It was also far enough off-balance
to ring true. Necheyev automatically surrendering (is that how you get rank
in the 24th-century Starfleet?) seemed in character, though (what good has
she ever accomplished?).
>-- I hope we *still* see an issue of Odo's status on the station; that
>question was swept under the rug this week. If Eddington is inexplicably
>taken back to the Home for Disused Plot Devices next week, it won't be good.
Ditto. Here's hoping that T'rul and Eddington become regular
characters.
>-- On the other hand, I thought Quark's token scene was pretty terrible this
>week, particularly his dream. Were the writers *trying* to be offensive
>here?
What was offensive? Yeah, the cribbing was obvious, but that's how
Quark's mind works. Anyone who's seen enough of Quark knows he probably
thought he had a noble view.
Dark Apprentice
łWARNING: This article contains spoiler information regarding DS9's "The
łSearch, Part II". If you haven't seen the show and don't want to be spoiled,
łconsider yourself warned.
ł
ł
ł-- The Romulan exclusion from the peace talks makes zero sense, even given
łthat it's a test. Its whole purpose was solely to get Sisko ticked off
ł(especially the more-than-a-bit-exploitative death of T'Rul), and there was
łno logic given for it at all other than "it's what the Founders want". WHY?
ł
Well, I think the Romulan exclusion from the alliance does make a little
sense. Perhaps the Dominions are trying to provoke a war between the
Romulans and the Federation while they are starting the process of
invading the Alpha Quadrant (starting with the DS9 and the Bajor). A war
between the Romulans and the Federation certainly will be beneficial to no
one but the Dominions.
Although the Dominions are much more powerful than both the Romulans and
the federation, they probably do not want undergo the trouble that they
may have to experience if the Romulans and the Federation decide to ally
with each other and defend the Alpha Quadrant together.
Daniel A. Hartung
>I have a question about the excuse the female Changeling gives Odo. She
>said "We were hunted, beaten and killed..."
> How could you beat a Changeling? (with a Mixmaster, maybe?) They could
>just liquefy, or turn into a rock or something. And how could you kill
>one?
>Put it in a dehydrator?
Heh. I was already in jeer mode by this point, and when she made
that little speech, I immediately rewrote it:
"We were hunted, beaten, and ... and ... <shudder> ... we were stirred!"
--
Daniel A. Hartung | Democracy:
Birch Grove Software |
| It's a great software package, but the
dhar...@chinet.chinet.com | installation program is a real bitch.
Sean Puckett
TMC> >-- One very nice touch in this story: if you look at Odo's homeworld, you
TMC> >will see a pedestal in the background that bears a rather strong resemblance
TMC> >to the one seen in "The Alternate" last year. It seems there *was* a
TMC> >connection between it and Odo; interesting.
TMC>
TMC> Hey, I didn't notice that. Cool. They'd better explore that some more later
TMC> in the series too, says me.
Less of a pedestal, more of an obelisk. And in The Alternate, Odo behaved very
oddly around that pedestal. Check your tapes! I really liked this subtle
referent back to last season.
--
;ndftohicu tem ohhutidtf ycuy ngdeerp
Noah S Friedland
Daniel A. Hartung <dhar...@chinet.chinet.com> wrote:
>Mariette <tk...@halcyon.com> wrote:
>>I have a question about the excuse the female Changeling gives Odo. She
>>said "We were hunted, beaten and killed..."
>> How could you beat a Changeling? (with a Mixmaster, maybe?) They could
>>just liquefy, or turn into a rock or something. And how could you kill
>>one?
>>Put it in a dehydrator?
>
>Heh. I was already in jeer mode by this point, and when she made
>that little speech, I immediately rewrote it:
>
>"We were hunted, beaten, and ... and ... <shudder> ... we were stirred!"
Shaken, my dear fellow, not stirred. ;->
>
>--
> Daniel A. Hartung | Democracy:
> Birch Grove Software |
> | It's a great software package, but the
> dhar...@chinet.chinet.com | installation program is a real bitch.
NSF, err (007).
Russell C Silberglied
> How could you beat a Changeling? (with a Mixmaster, maybe?) They could
>just liquefy, or turn into a rock or something. And how could you kill
>one?
>Put it in a dehydrator?
Well, if you watch Crossover, I guess simply shooting a
changeling will kill it, just as shooting a hman would kill him/her. And
please, no one say that since Crossover is an alternate universe,
changeling's biologies are different.
-Russ-
Blase Martin Louis
: Mariette <tk...@halcyon.com> wrote:
: >I have a question about the excuse the female Changeling gives Odo. She
: >said "We were hunted, beaten and killed..."
: > How could you beat a Changeling? (with a Mixmaster, maybe?) They could
: >just liquefy, or turn into a rock or something. And how could you kill
: >one?
: >Put it in a dehydrator?
Changeling torture devices: "NO! NO! NOT THE _CENTRIFUGE_!!!
Blaze
"You vitriolic, patriotic, slam, fight, bright, light,
Feelin' pretty psyched?" -- R.E.M.
Blase Martin Louis
: Thre seems to be a definite tendency in this newsgroup to ignore the
: deeper discussions of the metaphors used in various Trek episodes in
: favor of a sort of generalized nit picking. This seems to miss the point
: of science fiction in general and Trek in particular.
: DS9's "The Search" presented "The Founders" as a collectivity joined by
: what was described as "The Great Link". This joining together into a
: singular organic (liquid) oneness has parallels with the kibbutz system.
MOre like parallels with the Borg collective. Star Trek isn't supposed to
be great literature; half of it's viewers are too young to even know how
to spell "kibbutz."
Blaze
"You vitriolic, patriotic, slam, fight, bright, light,
Feelin' pretty psyched?" -- R.E.M.
: Indeed, the very motivation for forming _The Great Link_ on an isolated
: world comes out of circumstances not unlike the circumstances that drove
: the kibbutz movement. The "changelings" found themselves the subject of
: intense racism, treated always as outsiders, and sought escape in
: isolation and the intense togetherness of _The Great Link_. The members
: of the kibbutz movement sought the same thing in the promised land of
: Israel and their own "great link" within their individual kibbutzim. The
: kibbutzim represented a small organic unit based on giving up many of the
: trappings of individuality, including individual property, and
: celebrating the collective organization of life, including collective
: child rearing. Odo is presented as a child of the community formed of
: _The Great Link_.
: As in the case of the children of many kibbutzim, they may grow up and
: pursue greater knowledge by leaving the community. Indeed, they may be
: encouraged to do so. They may go off to external universities, for
: example, to gain knowledge that would be useful to the kibbutz. The
: education, the enculturation, these "individuals" have received from
: birth is one that "codes" their return to the kibbutz. Most of them do
: just that. Odo, and others, were sent away to acquire knowledge and
: coded (it is stated that this coding is "genetic"---this seems to be a
: necessary convention, since Odo has no conscious knowledge of his origins
: prior to "The Search") to return to _The Great Link_ with this
: knowledge. The knowledge would then add to the combined knowledge of the
: communal whole, in the same way that the returnees to the kibbutz bring with
: them new knowledge that will strengthen the collective.
: I wonder if one might also argue that the collectivity created by _The
: Great Link_ could be analyzed in terms of Jung's idea of a "collective
: unconscious". Another possible interpretation, not inconsistent with the
: thrust of this analysis.
: The decision to have the home world of The Founders be a rogue planet
: links with this analogy in that the notion of isolation is strengthened.
: The kibbutz is insular, everything not of the kibbutz is outside. The
: individuals who had been outsiders in many other communities found a
: community within which they are the only insiders---all else is distant
: and foreign and outside. From this isolation, they can strengthen their
: connection to each other and develop their spirituality, which becomes a
: condition for the full appreciation of their uniqueness.
: It is interesting that the choice of expression of this spirituality is
: reminiscent of Zen. "To become a thing is to know a thing." _The
: Founders_ celebrate their ability to do just what the solids cannot.
: They can assimilate. The solids are always trapped inside their existing
: shape. In the same way, the Jews (like African Americans and other
: "outsiders" who are forced by circumstance to live within groupings that
: define them as outsiders) were compelled to assimilate into the cultural
: spaces they inhabited in Europe, North America, Africa, etc. They
: assimilated the culture of those who were hostile to them, who always
: treated them as "Others", but the "majority" groups that always defined
: them as "outsiders" were not able to assimilate any other culture. Their
: very arrogance as the "majority" left them impotent when it came to
: understanding the deeper codes that shaped alternative cultures. This
: dynamic is depicted quite brilliantly by the liquids ability to
: assimilate and the solids inability to do so. A beautiful metaphor!
: The political configuration depicted in "The Search" is also
: interesting. The Founders sit at the top of a political power
: hierarchy. This hierarchy is enforced by the Jem'h'dar, who are similar
: in many ways to samurai (or the knights of feudal Europe or the police
: and paramilitary groups in Haiti, for that matter). Mirath and his
: people are depicted as the bureaucrats of the Dominion---there were
: similar groups in feudal Japan and feudal Europe. There is also a
: potential parallel with modern Israel here. "The hunted now control the
: destiny of . . . other races." Israel now has the power to decide the
: fates of the Palestinians, Lebanese, Syrians (in Golan Heights most
: directly), etc. to some extent. The hunted are now the masters.
: When Odo was leaving his new found "home", he was told that "You will
: always be an outsider." In a way this statement is a challenge, rather
: than an axiom. It is a challenge to humanity, since science fiction can
: only create metaphors with which we can rethink our own lives in the
: present in order to make a better future. Whether or not Odo "will
: always be an outsider" depends on him and on the "solids". Can they
: learn to overcome their superficial differences and find commonality?
: Ultimately, that seems to be the central question asked by the entire
: Star Trek universe.
: Satya J. Gabriel *
: Dept. of Economics ***
: Mount Holyoke College ****
: South Hadley, MA ******
: 01075 ******* ***LIVE LONG AND PROSPER***
: *********
: *** **
: ** *
: *
just another theatre geek
>>>In brief: Oy. I'm less concerned about the characters now, but if this is
>>>the sort of *story* we're in for ... uh-oh.
>>Oddly I disagree with a lot of your specific comments below, but I agree with
>>this conclusion.
And I'll ring in with Ted, here....
>>>-- There is still no valid reason for why Odo was suddenly affected with his
>>>compulsion to return home at this particular point in time.
....though, here, I'll agree with Tim. If there was something
about spatial nearness, I'd buy it...
>>>The logic is very suspect here; the Changelings have had bad
>>>experiences with "solids" and their resentment, right? So what possible
>>>thought justifies the idea of forcing their will on *all* solids, so as to
>>>give them both substantial contact with Borath's people *and* to give every
>>>subject of the Dominion a legitimate _reason_ for resentment and attack?
I'm not so sure the Changelings FORCED a Dominion structure on
the Gamma Quadrant....I think it began as a beneficial union that was
worked out through underlings. Certainly, I think as a strategy, the
Changelings' taking the initiative and forming a union they control
through proxies is fairly viable....
>>And given the power they obviously can exercise through The
>>Dominion over "solids," this actually seems like an effective way for them
>>to protect themselves.
>In the short run, yes. Not in the long, IMO.
Depends on how light or how heavy a hand they use, and how adept
they are. We've seen dissident elements from the Dominium before, but
that only makes sense; you're not going to see that many people on the
run from the Dominion who like them....
If the vast majority of the Dominion LIKES the way they handle
things, then the Dominion is stable...
>>Actually, it looks like they writers are setting up an internal conflict
>>with Odo between the nature of his people and the nature of the "solids"
>>who he's lived with for most of his life (with Kira and Quark being his
>>strongest ties to the "solid" world, I think). I kind of expect we'll see him
>>return to his home world to work out this internal battle later in this
>>season.
>It'd be nice. If so, then there's more long-range thought at work here than
>it seems, and I'll be pleasantly surprised.
Actually, it seems obvious to me that there is some long range
threads at work. The temptation here is to resolve them too quickly...
>>I'd prefer to see the Dominion be more complex,
>>with a variety of different races each with its own nature and motives. And I
>>think more could have been done with the Changelings if they hadn't been made
>>into simple "enemies of the Federation." Although I disagree with your
>>argument that making them "the bad guys" limits their possible interactions
>>with Odo, I do think it limits their possible interactions with the
>>Federation, which is disappointing.
>There may have been a lot of this lurking in my head as well, though it never
>quite made it into print. I completely agree here.
And I'll agree here, too....
>>>More to the point, though, what was served here? Is the threat of the
>>>Dominion gone? No. Has Sisko made any progress to ease the threat to the
>>>Federation, the quadrant, the station, or Bajor? No. Did we accomplish
>>>anything? Once you take the 20-30 minutes of total Odo-centered time out,
>>>no -- which means we had an hour of filler. Not a good idea in general, and
>>>certainly not for a season premiere.
On the one hand, they KNOW more about the nature of the
Dominion...and its something the rank and file of the dominion does NOT
know about. I'd count that as something accomplished. On the other hand,
this was discovered more or less accidentally (and wasn't even a primary
mission for Sisko, which it should have been.....).
As a whole, it was strongly acted and directed (I was REALLY
impressed by Frakes' work here; very dynamic camera angles and good
interaction, yet they were integrated into the overall storytelling), but
weakly plotted....
--
Roger Tang, gwan...@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
The most unAmerican thing you can say is "He/she makes too much money."
Timothy W. Lynch
>In article <377n4d$e...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
>Timothy W. Lynch <tly...@juliet.caltech.edu> wrote:
>>WARNING: This article contains spoiler information regarding DS9's "The
>>Search, Part II". If you haven't seen the show and don't want to be spoiled,
>>consider yourself warned.
>>In brief: Oy. I'm less concerned about the characters now, but if this is
>>the sort of *story* we're in for ... uh-oh.
>Oddly I disagree with a lot of your specific comments below, but I agree with
>this conclusion.
That's always a fun circumstance. :-)
>>-- There is still no valid reason for why Odo was suddenly affected with his
>>compulsion to return home at this particular point in time.
[snip]
>I'm not sure if those explanations for why Odo was drawn back to his home
>planet and why he was sent out in the first place were the truth.
You mean they lied through their teeth? You've been watching too much B5.
:-) Seriously, I don't think we've ever seen a Trek situation where someone
flat-out lies only to be revealed half a season later, which is more or less
what you're suggesting will happen. That doesn't mean it *couldn't* happen
now, but it's certainly not the way I'd bet.
[On the Changelings as Founders]
>>The logic is very suspect here; the Changelings have had bad
>>experiences with "solids" and their resentment, right? So what possible
>>thought justifies the idea of forcing their will on *all* solids, so as to
>>give them both substantial contact with Borath's people *and* to give every
>>subject of the Dominion a legitimate _reason_ for resentment and attack? Odo
>>has been shown to be grim on many occasions, for certain, but he's never been
>>depicted as stupid. The Founders' reasoning here is not only barbaric (as
>>was pointed out), but simply short-sighted on a host of levels.
>Hmm. Unless the Changelings want to crawl into dark corners and spend their
>lives hiding, it's probably inevitable that they're going to have contact
>with "solids."
Wait a minute. They've got their own *planet* hiding in a nebula that hasn't
been found for a long time except when they want it found, and you say they're
going to have to face contact? Am I missing something?
>And given the power they obviously can exercise through The
>Dominion over "solids," this actually seems like an effective way for them
>to protect themselves.
In the short run, yes. Not in the long, IMO.
And some of this begs the question of how they could possibly have set up the
Dominion in the first place. Unless they have a *lot* more personal power than
we've been led to believe, one has to wonder what happened. This could be
interesting story meat, should the powers that be choose to pursue it.
>Their response is drastic, but I don't think it's stupid. I think we're
>dealing with an alien psychology which is reacting to this problem in a more
>severe manner than most of us would react to it. And this is consistent
>with Odo's behavior, isn't it?
Is it? Has Odo's response to prejudice been to try to take over everything?
I don't think so...
>>Even more than the basic silliness of the Changelings/Founders link, though,
>>I found myself annoyed for what it did to Odo finding his people. Odo's
>>search for his family isn't looking for *people*; it's looking for an
>>identity. There was a vast amount of potential in scenes such as those with
>>Odo's guide instructing him on what his gifts are meant to do, and what a
>>Changeling really *is*. Odo had the opportunity here to learn so much about
>>himself, and we had the opportunity to learn it with him. Not any more,
>>though; now that Odo's people are automatically relegated to the land of Bad
>>Guys, Odo won't have those lessons. Maybe that's considered tragically noble
>>in some circles; I consider it tragic, period.
>You're sure Odo won't have those lessons? I think he may -- but those
>lessons won't be exactly what we (or he) expected. I think we'll see Odo
>returning to his home planet at some point. And I think these scenes could
>be every bit as powerful as the scenes you were anticipating.
I'll be overjoyed to be proven wrong if it's the case. :-) I'm not dead
certain that Odo won't have those lessons now, but it didn't seem to be the
way the episode's ending struck me.
>Didn't that female Changeling say at the
>end of the episode that he would feel himself drawn back to his home planet?
Not quite -- she simply said Odo would miss them more than they'd miss him.
>Actually, it looks like they writers are setting up an internal conflict
>with Odo between the nature of his people and the nature of the "solids"
>who he's lived with for most of his life (with Kira and Quark being his
>strongest ties to the "solid" world, I think). I kind of expect we'll see him
>return to his home world to work out this internal battle later in this
>season.
It'd be nice. If so, then there's more long-range thought at work here than
it seems, and I'll be pleasantly surprised.
>I have no problem with the Changelings being members of the Dominion. And
>I found their bitterness towards solids to be both fascinating and chilling.
>But...I think this explanation of the Dominion kind of limits what can be
>done with the Dominion. Especially if, as seemed to be implied at one point,
>all members of the Dominion are Changelings. (Wasn't there a statement like
>"We are the Dominion"?)
Well, yes, but Jaro said last year that he was the Circle. I don't think that
was anything more than a grandiose claim to leadership.
>I'd prefer to see the Dominion be more complex,
>with a variety of different races each with its own nature and motives. And I
>think more could have been done with the Changelings if they hadn't been made
>into simple "enemies of the Federation." Although I disagree with your
>argument that making them "the bad guys" limits their possible interactions
>with Odo, I do think it limits their possible interactions with the
>Federation, which is disappointing.
There may have been a lot of this lurking in my head as well, though it never
quite made it into print. I completely agree here.
>I also thought Avery Brooks was unusually strong in this episode.
>I've never disliked him on this show (as some people have), but I thought he
>was outstanding this week.
I actually preferred him in part 1, but he was certainly fine here.
>Okay, first, I knew the surprise ending before I saw this episode.
I'd seen hints, but not the definite claim. I don't think it would have mat-
tered *that* much, though; I usually watch it through a second time before
reviewing to remove things like that.
>Paramount wanted
>a surprise ending, which is fine -- but I think they definitely miscalculated
>on this one. The episode probably would have been stronger if they had been
>more honest about the premise.
No argument here.
>>More to the point, though, what was served here? Is the threat of the
>>Dominion gone? No. Has Sisko made any progress to ease the threat to the
>>Federation, the quadrant, the station, or Bajor? No. Did we accomplish
>>anything? Once you take the 20-30 minutes of total Odo-centered time out,
>>no -- which means we had an hour of filler. Not a good idea in general, and
>>certainly not for a season premiere.
>Well, the invasion apparently was delayed a little bit.
Are you sure? Did we have evidence that the invasion was going to be next
week? Perhaps they would have bided their time *anyway*.
>The Federation now
>knows more about the Dominion and their motivation. And the Dominion knows
>a lot more about the Federation side of the wormhole. I wouldn't call this
>episode an hour of filler. On the other hand, I think the things that were
>accomplished by this episode could have been accomplished a lot more
>efficiently.
Fair enough.
>I liked virtually every scene in this episode, when the scenes are taken on
>their own. There were a lot of character scenes with Odo that I especially
>enjoyed. Actually, given the basic outline of this episode, I think they
>did absolutely as good a job with it as they could have.
I wouldn't get quite that strong, but I agree: they managed to take a lousy
present and put it into some very, very nice packaging.
>I really only have two problems with this episode:
>1) I wish the Changelings had been members of the Dominion but not actually
> the Founders.
>2) I wish the show had not tried to make the testing-the-crew bit into a
> surprise ending.
Firmly agreed on both.
Tim Lynch
Dennis F. Hefferman
Spoilers for "The Search". Abort now or die.
|And some of this begs the question of how they could possibly have set up the
|Dominion in the first place. Unless they have a *lot* more personal power than
|we've been led to believe, one has to wonder what happened. This could be
|interesting story meat, should the powers that be choose to pursue it.
Not a problem. The changelings raised at home most likely do not
share Odo's lack of skill in the form-control department. They could have
taken over entire civilizations by replacing the leaders. Changes on this
scale would have taken time, but given what we learned about their lifespan
that's a commodity they have in abundant supply.
Of course, the ep still goes down on farm animals, but this
particular point isn't problematic.
--
Dennis Francis Heffernan IRC: FuzyLogic heff...@pegasus.montclair.edu
Montclair State University #include <disclaim.h> Computer Science/Philosophy
"The universe runs on the complex interweaving of three things: energy,
matter, and enlightened self-interest." -- G'Kar, _Babylon 5_
Blanche Cohen
>>Paramount wanted
>>a surprise ending, which is fine -- but I think they definitely miscalculated
>>on this one. The episode probably would have been stronger if they had been
>>more honest about the premise.
>
>No argument here.
>
Time Lynch:
>>I liked virtually every scene in this episode, when the scenes are taken on
>>their own. There were a lot of character scenes with Odo that I especially
>>enjoyed. Actually, given the basic outline of this episode, I think they
>>did absolutely as good a job with it as they could have.
>
>I wouldn't get quite that strong, but I agree: they managed to take a lousy
>present and put it into some very, very nice packaging.
>
>>I really only have two problems with this episode:
>
>>1) I wish the Changelings had been members of the Dominion but not actually
>> the Founders.
>
>>2) I wish the show had not tried to make the testing-the-crew bit into a
>> surprise ending.
>
On the other hand, if I reversed the order of names, it's not a huge problem
since both Tim and Tim were agreeing on just about everything.
On the ending - The first couple times I watched the show I too was really
annoyed at the lame ending. I had already read the novel and knew about the
Dallas Ending [tm]. Over the past few days I've had time to rethink this, tho.
In the novel, and I would guess the original script (since the novelists are
under instructions to follow the script, adding only texture and background)
the show opens with Kira and O'Brien waging war against the Jem'Hadar, only
to find out we're on the Holosuites. K&O are trying to develop a number of
simulations that will prepare them for a possible battle with the
Jem Ha'dar. The broadcast, on the other hand, opens with a staff meeting with
Kira reporting the findings. Whether due to cost or time, I think leaving out
the opening sequence was a mistake and contributed to the lame ending. It
was a great setup to what the Dominion did during the entire second part - a
simulation to determine how to deal with the Federation - a parallel to how
we started the show. Not overly subtle, but much more viable in context.
There were other sequences in the novel that didn't make it into the broadcast
that may have contributed to the show, I'm not sure, but they did provide more
insight (plus a couple really stupid lines in the novel, but that's another
message...) I don't think people would have overreacted to the ending if
we had seen the holosuite scene at the first. In fact, perhaps many people
would be commenting on the similarities of the Dominion and the Federation in
dealing with the First Contact issue.
I dunno. Maybe I'm just trying to come up with any reason not to hate that
ending! (*snrk*)
--
bc
"It might be interesting to explore useless for a while" [DS9]
"Chocolate is a serious business" [TNG]
eni...@dorsai.org
: I also thought that this was the case. However, Odo specifically says that
: he has felt the compulsion since he entered the Gamma quadrant. I feel
That was the case. The writer screwed up withthat line. Remember Odo
didn't even wanna go to the Gamma quadrant. And you can see just by
watchinf the episode, when he starts to get this urge to find his home.
It's right after he see the nebula on the chart. No ifs, ands, or buts
about it.
: Well, what should we expect with an ep that has a magic ending? I need to
: go check and see who was given credit for the writing. A serious net.slap
: is needed (imho, of course).
Read the book. It adds a whole bunch of stuff that for some reason was
left out (or never actually written) from the premiere
Victor
eni...@dorsai.org
: Timothy W. Lynch (tly...@cco.caltech.edu) wrote:
: : -- There is still no valid reason for why Odo was suddenly affected with his
: : compulsion to return home at this particular point in time. Yes, the head
: : Changeling [assuming she was she was the leader at all, but she certainly
: : seemed to be] said that the compulsion to return home was "implanted in
: : [Odo's] genetic makeup", or some such technobabble. But that doesn't change
: : what I said last week: Odo's been in the Gamma Quadrant before without
: : feeling the urge. This is more careless than anything else, but it rankles.
: I got the impression from part one that the trigger to Odo's compulsion
: was the sight of the nebula. The was no probem with Odo until that
: point.
Yes that is the case!! Did some people miss this? I don't know why it's
brought up as a error.
Victor
Paul Kearney
>compulsion to return home at this particular point in time. Yes, the head
>Changeling [assuming she was she was the leader at all, but she certainly
>seemed to be] said that the compulsion to return home was "implanted in
>[Odo's] genetic makeup", or some such technobabble. But that doesn't change
>what I said last week: Odo's been in the Gamma Quadrant before without
>feeling the urge. This is more careless than anything else, but it rankles.
I agree that it will require some "creative" thinking to explain
why Odo felt the urge to return home (this, in itself, isn't a bad thing).
However, your argument "Odo's been in the Gamma Quadrant before..." is
rather silly. Being in the quadrant certainly doesn't entail being
everywhere in the quadrant. Perhaps, upon entering the Gamma Quadrant
and heading in the direction of Odo's peoples, the urge to return
home overcame him because of the proximity of Odo's people on
this particular voyage.
Think of it this way, you are in the room the size of a football field and there
is an apple pie somewhere in the room. You enter the room several times
and walk around, never smelling the pie. One day you walk in, head in a direction
you never have before and suddenly you feel very hungry...
Of course, the Gamma Quadrant is much larger than a football field.
>-- There is still no explanation given for how Odo and Kira got off the
>Defiant last time around. Sure, it'd be easy to speculate that the Jem'Hadar
>realized Odo was a Founder (or at least one of their race) and decided to let
>them leave, but if so I imagine Odo would remember that as odd. Certainly,
>his mental faculties weren't in short supply once he reached his home...
Perhaps Odo did think it was odd. I don't think the question is whether
Odo or Kira thought it odd that they escaped but why it wasn't discussed.
Thankfully, the writers allowed the viewers to detect this oddity themselves
and create some suspense. I'm not sure what you were hoping for - perhaps
you would have preferred the writers explain everything to us as the plot
unfolded. I think it is pretty obvious how Odo and Kira got off the Defiant -
no changeling has ever harmed another, hence, they must have some way of
detecting one another, regardless of form. Do you honestly think that Odo's
and Kira's "escape" wasn't resolved?
>-- The Romulan exclusion from the peace talks makes zero sense, even given
>that it's a test. Its whole purpose was solely to get Sisko ticked off
>(especially the more-than-a-bit-exploitative death of T'Rul), and there was
>no logic given for it at all other than "it's what the Founders want". WHY?
It seems that the test was to determine how far Sisko could be pushed
before he would destroy the wormhole - the simulation even allowed him the
means to do so. Excluding the Romulans, as you have said, appears to be a
tactic that facilitated this.
>Unfortunately, this whole story about the Changelings being the Founders is
>one that, in my opinion, was ill-conceived from the start. I know that the
>speculation about it started about two seconds after "The Jem'Hadar" aired
>last year, and I suspect that the thinking went "wouldn't it be cool if..."
>and proceeded from there.
>
>Alas, my answer to that question is "no, it wouldn't be cool at all; it'd be
>dumb." The logic is very suspect here; the Changelings have had bad
>experiences with "solids" and their resentment, right? So what possible
>thought justifies the idea of forcing their will on *all* solids, so as to
>give them both substantial contact with Borath's people *and* to give every
>subject of the Dominion a legitimate _reason_ for resentment and attack? Odo
>has been shown to be grim on many occasions, for certain, but he's never been
>depicted as stupid. The Founders' reasoning here is not only barbaric (as
>was pointed out), but simply short-sighted on a host of levels.
>
>Granted, this isn't necessarily a fatal flaw -- perhaps the eventual way to
>solve the problems with the Dominion is to convince them of this fact. If
>so, that will provide the idea with a little depth, and will help
>substantially. However, given the lack of anyone pointing that out at
>present, I have to say that I found the whole thing cheesy. (Maybe I'm just
>pining for intelligent villains. Some of the Cardassians we've seen have
>played that role; if they're to be shunted aside for the sake of burly
>Jem'Hadar thugs, I have to wonder what the mindset is at Paramount Central
>Command.)
I find it hard to reconcile your comments. On one hand you are lamenting
the irrational behaviour of a persecuted race. Well, they are alien to
us and most likely have a different sense of justice and morality. I don't
think that their irrational behaviour - as you see it - is a plot flaw, or
should even be considered inappropriate considering their history.
On the other hand you "pine for intelligent villains". By your own
argument, aren't villains irrational at some level? Certainly a Vulcan
would agree. That is, by what you have said, the phrase "intelligent
villain" is an oxymoron. I'm not sure which Cardassians you are thinking
of but we cannot include, under you criteria, the torturer of Picard
(I forget his name) since he acted in an irrational way - torture has
never been a reliable means of obtaining information.
>Even more than the basic silliness of the Changelings/Founders link, though,
>I found myself annoyed for what it did to Odo finding his people. Odo's
>search for his family isn't looking for *people*; it's looking for an
>identity. There was a vast amount of potential in scenes such as those with
>Odo's guide instructing him on what his gifts are meant to do, and what a
>Changeling really *is*. Odo had the opportunity here to learn so much about
>himself, and we had the opportunity to learn it with him. Not any more,
>though; now that Odo's people are automatically relegated to the land of Bad
>Guys, Odo won't have those lessons. Maybe that's considered tragically noble
>in some circles; I consider it tragic, period.
>
>(Note: I expect some will rebut that with "well, what about Worf? He's
>rejected some of what the Klingons do." Yes, he has -- *after* he learned
>more fully what it means to be Klingon, both in "society" and in his own
>heart. Odo hasn't figured out either yet, and has now been denied the
>opportunity to really choose.)
I think you are assuming that Odo will never ever return to his world
or see his people (it was suggested that they may visit). Pretty big
assumption.
>The illusion, for one, was rather trivially easy to spot. The fact that we
>found Sisko and Bashir suddenly on a shuttle when we last saw them in a
>Jem'Hadar clinch suggested that we definitely missed something -- and
>Odo/Kira's escape notwithstanding, the easy thing to assume is that *they*
>missed something as well, particularly since they seem uninjured. Add to
>that things like Nechayev calling Sisko "Benjamin" and referring to his wish
>for an Admiralty (a wish he rather explicitly rejected last time), and of
>course the sudden demise of Garak, and you had something that spelled
>"temporary" in large neon letters.
>
>More to the point, though, what was served here? Is the threat of the
>Dominion gone? No. Has Sisko made any progress to ease the threat to the
>Federation, the quadrant, the station, or Bajor? No. Did we accomplish
>anything? Once you take the 20-30 minutes of total Odo-centered time out,
>no -- which means we had an hour of filler. Not a good idea in general, and
>certainly not for a season premiere.
>
>-- On the other hand, I thought Quark's token scene was pretty terrible this
>week, particularly his dream. Were the writers *trying* to be offensive
>here?
The illusion was, of course, meant to be perceived by viewers. What purpose
does this serve? Many viewers have fun finding subtle, and not so
subtle clues such as the ones you mentioned above. Even more interesting
is the characterization of persons not actively involved in the illusion.
By this I mean Garak, Quark, Nechayev, etc. These characters have been
recreated from Sisko's, Dax's, Bashir's and O'Brien's impressions of these
characters. Hence, Quark's characterization is especially offensive, and more
subtley, more Quarkish than Quark. I found Garak's line (paraphrasing)
"Something I read in a book", which he said before being shot quite amusing:
I believe this plays upon Garak's role in the simulation as that taken from
a typical spy novel or perhaps, from Bashir's perception of Garak.
That is, his actions were a recreated from another source.
You comment that essentially nothing has been accomplished. I think you
are assuming that the story was about Sisko trying to resolve the Dominion/
Federation dispute. The story wasn't about Sisko. In fact, the writers made
it painfully obvious that Sisko, in the end, played an insignificant role.
Similarly for Bashir, Dax, and O'Brien. This is, in my opinion, a very
powerful irony in the story. Initially Odo wasn't even part of the away
mission to the Gamma Quadrant. In the end, it is his relation to the Founders
which is all important while the Federation's efforts are insignificant.
Odo's relation to the Founders is unique. The Dominion has few qualms in
attacking the Alpha Quadrant. However, more important is the basic respect
the Founders have for Odo. That is, Odo and his relationship to the Founders
is more important than Sisko's, Kira's or any Federation member's.
Stew Barnes
> WARNING: This article contains spoiler information regarding DS9's "The
> Search, Part II". If you haven't seen the show and don't want to be spoiled,
> consider yourself warned.
Yeah!
Wow, I agree with Ted, in that I disagree with many of your specific
complaints, but disliked the show quite a bit.
zap
>
> -- There is still no valid reason for why Odo was suddenly affected with his
> compulsion to return home at this particular point in time. Yes, the head
> Changeling [assuming she was she was the leader at all, but she certainly
> seemed to be] said that the compulsion to return home was "implanted in
> [Odo's] genetic makeup", or some such technobabble. But that doesn't change
> what I said last week: Odo's been in the Gamma Quadrant before without
> feeling the urge. This is more careless than anything else, but it rankles.
Actually, from the way she reacted to his return I can only surmise their
conditioning somehow misfired and caused him to return early. FWIK, it
could have been the trauma of his losing his position, it could have been
caused by his viewing the nebulae, by all the talk of the Dominion, by his
mysterious illness from last year's "Alternate." I don't think anyone on
the show knew why, so we're left to speculate. I don't think it was
careless; sometimes we just don't know enough to explain what happens.
zap
>
> -- The Romulan exclusion from the peace talks makes zero sense, even given
> that it's a test. Its whole purpose was solely to get Sisko ticked off
> (especially the more-than-a-bit-exploitative death of T'Rul), and there was
> no logic given for it at all other than "it's what the Founders want". WHY?
They were exploring the possibility of dividing the alpha quadrant powers,
weakening them for the eventual invasion (and, by offering to help fight
the Romulans, to let the Feds allow them to introduce large forces into
the alpha quadrant)?
zip
> Alas, my answer to that question is "no, it wouldn't be cool at all; it'd be
> dumb." The logic is very suspect here; the Changelings have had bad
> experiences with "solids" and their resentment, right? So what possible
> thought justifies the idea of forcing their will on *all* solids, so as to
> give them both substantial contact with Borath's people *and* to give every
> subject of the Dominion a legitimate _reason_ for resentment and attack? Odo
> has been shown to be grim on many occasions, for certain, but he's never been
> depicted as stupid. The Founders' reasoning here is not only barbaric (as
> was pointed out), but simply short-sighted on a host of levels.
>
> Granted, this isn't necessarily a fatal flaw -- perhaps the eventual way to
> solve the problems with the Dominion is to convince them of this fact. If
> so, that will provide the idea with a little depth, and will help
> substantially. However, given the lack of anyone pointing that out at
> present, I have to say that I found the whole thing cheesy. (Maybe I'm just
> pining for intelligent villains. Some of the Cardassians we've seen have
> played that role; if they're to be shunted aside for the sake of burly
> Jem'Hadar thugs, I have to wonder what the mindset is at Paramount Central
> Command.)
Yikes! I didn't have a problem with this at all. A persecuted people
became irrational and resentful? Combine this with their unique abilities
and I'd be inclined to believe they could set up a power like the
Dominion. As for the morality of the situation, they seem to have covered
that very well with their "bringing order to the quadrant"
rationalization, another established (human) belief.
>
> Even more than the basic silliness of the Changelings/Founders link, though,
> I found myself annoyed for what it did to Odo finding his people. Odo's
> search for his family isn't looking for *people*; it's looking for an
> identity. There was a vast amount of potential in scenes such as those with
> Odo's guide instructing him on what his gifts are meant to do, and what a
> Changeling really *is*. Odo had the opportunity here to learn so much about
> himself, and we had the opportunity to learn it with him. Not any more,
> though; now that Odo's people are automatically relegated to the land of Bad
> Guys, Odo won't have those lessons. Maybe that's considered tragically noble
> in some circles; I consider it tragic, period.
I found Odo's discovering his heritage to be the most exciting and
surprising aspect of the show. Frankly, I thought the power's that be
would insure that Odo's search for his people would be a "Gilligan gets
off the island" plot, with endless false leads and mis-steps, fearing to
take any chances with the character. Instead, Odo has discovered his
heritage and largely rejected it, allowing him to find his own role in
life rather than having to conform to some racial norm. Odo, the ultimate
outsider, is now even more alone than he was before.
>
> (Note: I expect some will rebut that with "well, what about Worf? He's
> rejected some of what the Klingons do." Yes, he has -- *after* he learned
> more fully what it means to be Klingon, both in "society" and in his own
> heart. Odo hasn't figured out either yet, and has now been denied the
> opportunity to really choose.)
Yes, but I see this as a positive.
zip
> Besides the implausibility factors, I have to also go on record as saying
> that I absolutely despise endings of the "and then they woke up" variety.
> This isn't to say that I haven't liked some stories that have it -- but they
> have to be amazingly, *amazingly* good up to that point and find something
> novel to do with the "it was all an illusion" ending as well. This, simply
> put, didn't do either.
> The illusion, for one, was rather trivially easy to spot. The fact that we
> found Sisko and Bashir suddenly on a shuttle when we last saw them in a
> Jem'Hadar clinch suggested that we definitely missed something -- and
> Odo/Kira's escape notwithstanding, the easy thing to assume is that *they*
> missed something as well, particularly since they seem uninjured. Add to
> that things like Nechayev calling Sisko "Benjamin" and referring to his wish
> for an Admiralty (a wish he rather explicitly rejected last time), and of
> course the sudden demise of Garak, and you had something that spelled
> "temporary" in large neon letters.
Agreed. Through the episode I was becoming more and more upset at the
ham-handed portrayal of Nechayev (and Star Fleet in general.) I didn't
consider the "dream" angle (call me naive!); I half suspected that it was
going to turn out that some people were being replaced by changelings, or,
in an orgy of wish-fulfillment, controlled by the nasty buggy aliens from
TNG's first season.
(As an aside, the ability to perfectly mimic a solid being's appearance
could explain the mastery of the changelings. Do we have any indication
they cannot perfectly duplicate a human, or are they all subject to Odo's
limitations?)
zip
> Basically, then, I found "The Search" as a whole an *extremely* frustrating
> episode. There were and are lots of good stories that could be told about a
> search for the Founders or Odo finally coming home; unfortunately, this
> wasn't one of them.
I had several problems. The Sisko plot was obviously contrived and
unbelievable (I mean, even on ST, the entire Alpha Quadrant coming to an
agreement with the Dominion in a couple of days?, plus the poor
characterization of principles like Necheyev.) When it was revelead (heh)
as a dream, the explanation for the experiment was off the cuff and not
convincing at all. Finally, the decision to of the Founders to just let
Odo & co. wander off was as contrived as the entire dream plot. C'mon,
"okay, you can go but NEXT TIME we'll not treat you so nicely"? Dumb.
zip
> -- I hope we *still* see an issue of Odo's status on the station; that
> question was swept under the rug this week. If Eddington is inexplicably
> taken back to the Home for Disused Plot Devices next week, it won't be good.
Ditto. I want to see some hard lobbying by Odo to get his job back.
>
> -- One very nice touch in this story: if you look at Odo's homeworld, you
> will see a pedestal in the background that bears a rather strong resemblance
> to the one seen in "The Alternate" last year. It seems there *was* a
> connection between it and Odo; interesting.
I missed this entirely. Could it be Odo's strange infection screwed up
his metabolism in such a way as to influence his early return to the
planet?
> That should about do it. I wish I could say I was pleased with the show, but
> I'd be wrong. Better luck next time -- and let's get back to internal issues
> and not this great Threat From Beyond!
I like the looming threat. It is used very well in "The House of Quark."
S
Daniel A. Hartung
>: Well, what should we expect with an ep that has a magic ending? I need to
>: go check and see who was given credit for the writing. A serious net.slap
>: is needed (imho, of course).
>
>Read the book. It adds a whole bunch of stuff that for some reason was
>left out (or never actually written) from the premiere
Still, the episode must stand on its own. It doesn't.
Daniel A. Hartung
>In the novel, and I would guess the original script (since the novelists are
>under instructions to follow the script, adding only texture and background)
>the show opens with Kira and O'Brien waging war against the Jem'Hadar, only
>to find out we're on the Holosuites. K&O are trying to develop a number of
>simulations that will prepare them for a possible battle with the
>Jem Ha'dar. The broadcast, on the other hand, opens with a staff meeting with
>Kira reporting the findings. Whether due to cost or time, I think leaving out
>the opening sequence was a mistake and contributed to the lame ending. It
>was a great setup to what the Dominion did during the entire second part - a
>simulation to determine how to deal with the Federation - a parallel to how
>we started the show. Not overly subtle, but much more viable in context.
Interesting point. Yes, competing simulations would have been a
fascinating theme to develop. Instead, we get a manufactured
dream sequence -- that the characters themselves never
break out of.
Consider if their blowing up the wormhole had ended the simulation,
much as Riker's ultimate actions broke up the illusion in "Frame
of Mind" (or similarly in "Future Imperfect"). Let's say Sisko
says, "If this is real, we have to defend the Federation -- and if
this isn't real, we'll let them know how far we'll go."
*sigh*
What happens? They wake up, and two seconds later they're gone,
and Kira and Odo end the scene.
just another theatre geek
>fascinating theme to develop. Instead, we get a manufactured
>dream sequence -- that the characters themselves never
>break out of.
>
>Consider if their blowing up the wormhole had ended the simulation,
>much as Riker's ultimate actions broke up the illusion in "Frame
>of Mind" (or similarly in "Future Imperfect"). Let's say Sisko
>says, "If this is real, we have to defend the Federation -- and if
>this isn't real, we'll let them know how far we'll go."
Agreed.
And it could have been done quite economically, too.
Todd Horowitz
just another theatre geek <gwan...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>In article <37epdu$h...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
> Hmmm....you're probably right, reviewing the tape. Probably
>wishful thinking on my part, looking for some complexities and shades of
>gray in the situation (although it's a good questions if folks would pick
>up on those shades....).
Well, they could try...
Actually, the previous season of DS9 demonstrated shades of gray
all over the place, so the talent is there. And some people appreciated
it.
> ....Then again, Singapore and South Korea look pretty stable, and
>without the long-term instabilities that were pretty apparent in South
>Africa and the Soviet Union.
My point was just that stability isn't enough. The Jem'Hadar
seem to be the Tontons Macoutes of the Dominion. Any regime which needs
to use fear and brutality to keep order is probably in constant danger
of a violent uprising.
> I'll have to agree with that. This whole storyline was better
>played out as subtheme for the third season....
You'd think that they would consider that: they did spend a long
time building up to "The Jem'Hadar". I can't believe that this is what they
were thinking of!
> I think that's a vain hope, with the departure of Crocker and
>Fields and the addition of two TNG writer/producers....
Hope springs eternal...
If I didn't have hope, I'd stick to watching "Roseanne" reruns.
-todd
just another theatre geek
Todd Horowitz <to...@garnet.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>Spoilers for "The Search" part deux:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>In article <barnesw-1110...@barnes-mac5.rockefeller.edu>,
>Stew Barnes <bar...@rockvax.rockefeller.edu> wrote:
>
>>They were exploring the possibility of dividing the alpha quadrant powers,
>>weakening them for the eventual invasion (and, by offering to help fight
>>the Romulans, to let the Feds allow them to introduce large forces into
>>the alpha quadrant)?
>was actually a pretty clever, Machiavellian manipulation. The only problem
>was that this fell into the ham-handed treatment of the Federation leaders
>(personified in Necheyev): they'd have to be really stupid to fall for it.
Which SHOULD have been a flare-lit tipoff that this was a
simulation. This portrayal of Necheyev is at odds with all previous
portrayals (more so on TNG than DS9, but still). It was an example of
extremely poor writing on this episode to have Sisko (though not
O'Brien or Bashir) overlook this.
Of course, it went over the heads of most netters, I'd say....
Todd Horowitz
In article <barnesw-1110...@barnes-mac5.rockefeller.edu>,
Stew Barnes <bar...@rockvax.rockefeller.edu> wrote:
>They were exploring the possibility of dividing the alpha quadrant powers,
>weakening them for the eventual invasion (and, by offering to help fight
>the Romulans, to let the Feds allow them to introduce large forces into
>the alpha quadrant)?
That was my thought. Excluding the Romulans from the peace talks
was actually a pretty clever, Machiavellian manipulation. The only problem
was that this fell into the ham-handed treatment of the Federation leaders
(personified in Necheyev): they'd have to be really stupid to fall for it.
Or drunk on the power-trip of an alliance with the Dominion, which should be
out-of-character for the leaders of the principled, peace-loving but ever-
watchful Federation.
>I found Odo's discovering his heritage to be the most exciting and
>surprising aspect of the show. Frankly, I thought the power's that be
>would insure that Odo's search for his people would be a "Gilligan gets
>off the island" plot, with endless false leads and mis-steps, fearing to
>take any chances with the character. Instead, Odo has discovered his
>heritage and largely rejected it, allowing him to find his own role in
>life rather than having to conform to some racial norm. Odo, the ultimate
>outsider, is now even more alone than he was before.
Ooh, boy, that's taking a BIG chance with the character! Odo turns into
an alienated loner!
Odo should've at least been tempted. Here he's been fired from his
job at DS9, because, in his mind, Starfleet wouldn't let him do what was
necessary to maintain order. Now his own people, who he's been searching
for all his life, offer to take him back, and they don't have any of
these effete Federation moral principles holding them back. I believe that
Odo has some loyalty to his friends, but he shouyld at least spend some of
the episode trying to delude himself into thinking that maybe he could help
them more as a high muckety-muck in the Dominion, rather than as an
unemployed bucket of glop.
-todd
Todd Horowitz
Paul Kearney <kea...@csri.toronto.edu> wrote:
>I find it hard to reconcile your comments. On one hand you are lamenting
>the irrational behaviour of a persecuted race. Well, they are alien to
>us and most likely have a different sense of justice and morality. I don't
>think that their irrational behaviour - as you see it - is a plot flaw, or
>should even be considered inappropriate considering their history.
>On the other hand you "pine for intelligent villains". By your own
>argument, aren't villains irrational at some level? Certainly a Vulcan
>would agree. That is, by what you have said, the phrase "intelligent
>villain" is an oxymoron.
Not at all. Rationality is a means to an end. The difference between
villains and... non-villians (I'm way too cynical to use the H-word :) is
in their ends. The Cardassians, for instance, want power. FOr that end,
militaryt force is a rational means.
The Changelings want to protect themselves from outside persecution.
It's reasonable to ask if creating a secretive mafia-style empire is a
rational way to achieve that end, and I'm not sure it is.
-todd
Jim Brownfield
> WARNING: This article contains spoiler information regarding DS9's "The
> Search, Part II". If you haven't seen the show and don't want to be spoiled,
> consider yourself warned.
[munch]
>
> Alas, my answer to that question is "no, it wouldn't be cool at
> all; it'd be dumb." The logic is very suspect here; the Changelings
> have had bad experiences with "solids" and their resentment, right?
> So what possible thought justifies the idea of forcing their will
> on *all* solids, so as to give them both substantial contact with
> Borath's people *and* to give every subject of the Dominion a
> legitimate _reason_ for resentment and attack? Odo has been shown
> to be grim on many occasions, for certain, but he's never been
> depicted as stupid. The Founders' reasoning here is not only
> barbaric (as was pointed out), but simply short-sighted on a host
> of levels.
Maybe the Founders are just the "devolution" of the United States Congress in
the 24th Century. That would certainly answer a lot of questions. Maybe Odo
is the outcast Libertarian. ;-)
Doesn't seem so "dumb" now, huh? :-)
--
Jim Brownfield (Jim_Bro...@Radical.Com) NeXTmail accepted
Radical System Solutions, Inc.
rad i cal \'rad-i-kel\ n -- a basic principle: FOUNDATION
Todd Horowitz
>Todd Horowitz <to...@garnet.berkeley.edu> wrote:
Spoilers for "The Search" part deux:
> Which SHOULD have been a flare-lit tipoff that this was a
>simulation. This portrayal of Necheyev is at odds with all previous
>portrayals (more so on TNG than DS9, but still). It was an example of
>extremely poor writing on this episode to have Sisko (though not
>O'Brien or Bashir) overlook this.
> Of course, it went over the heads of most netters, I'd say....
Well, that's not fair. Either the Necheyev character is badly
written, or it's a simulation and Sisko is badly written. How is one to
decide?
-todd
David Mears
> Todd Horowitz <to...@garnet.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> > That was my thought. Excluding the Romulans from the peace talks
> >was actually a pretty clever, Machiavellian manipulation. The only problem
> >was that this fell into the ham-handed treatment of the Federation leaders
> >(personified in Necheyev): they'd have to be really stupid to fall for it.
> Which SHOULD have been a flare-lit tipoff that this was a
> simulation. This portrayal of Necheyev is at odds with all previous
> portrayals (more so on TNG than DS9, but still).
> Roger Tang, gwan...@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
Maybe. Maybe not. She seemed reasonably in character to me, based on
the way she handled the Cardassian treaty stuff. She didn't care very
much about the Federation colonists who were either forced to move or
were forced to live under new Cardassian rule. Here she didn't seem
to care too much about the Bajorans coming under Dominion rule or the
Romulans being excluded from the bargaining. If the Federation might
come out the slightest bit better for doing it that way, then by all
means do it that way.
David B. Mears
Hewlett-Packard
Cupertino CA
me...@cup.hp.com
David Mears
> David Mears <me...@cup.hp.com> wrote:
> >just another theatre geek (gwan...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
> >> Todd Horowitz <to...@garnet.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> >> > That was my thought. Excluding the Romulans from the peace talks
> >> >was actually a pretty clever, Machiavellian manipulation. The only problem
> >> >was that this fell into the ham-handed treatment of the Federation leaders
> >> >(personified in Necheyev): they'd have to be really stupid to fall for it.
> >
> >> Which SHOULD have been a flare-lit tipoff that this was a
> >> simulation. This portrayal of Necheyev is at odds with all previous
> >> portrayals (more so on TNG than DS9, but still).
> >
> >Maybe. Maybe not. She seemed reasonably in character to me, based on
> >the way she handled the Cardassian treaty stuff. She didn't care very
> >much about the Federation colonists who were either forced to move or
> >were forced to live under new Cardassian rule.
> Ahhh, but au contraire! Throughout JOURNEY'S END, she gave EVERY
> indication that she cared about the colonists. It's just that she made a
> conscious decision on what mattered more to her (remember that she tried
> EVERYTHING Picard suggested before he did). She simply doesn't wear here
> feelings on her sleeve.
> Necheyev gets an overly bad rap because she isn't the warm 'n
> fuzzy type of commanding officer we've come to expect from a Trek
> officer. Hmmm......wasn't that what a lot of fans clamoring for.....?
> Roger Tang, gwan...@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
I do see the difference (slight) between the two ways she dealt with
people. I wonder, though, if it might not simply be interpreted as a
different way to deal with Picard vs. Sisko. I don't remember enough
right now off the top of my head. Has she dealt with Sisko before in
an earlier episode? If so, was she as (somewhat) sympathetic as she
has been when dealing with Picard? Perhaps she's shown more sympathy
in past dealings with Sisko and I'm just not remembering it well. In
any case, it wasn't SO much diffferent as to jump out at me, though
it apparently did for others. Oh well.
Paul Kearney
I think you have misread by post. First off, I partly agree with you.
It is smart to attempt to attain your goals in a rational matter. I
don't think anyone has said anything to the contrary. The question is
whether villainous ends are themselves rational. That is, I could develop
a very efficient and rational way to lose everything I own. But the end
goal itself, to be broke and despondent, isn't necessarily a rational goal.
Actually, if you read my post more carefully you will see, hopefully, that
I was commenting on Mr. Lynch's argument that villainous ends (this is how
he sees the Founder's end goal, i believe) to be intrinsically unreasonable.
Hence, by his argument, the phrase "intelligent villain" is somewhat of
an oxymoron. I never stated myself that I thought the phrase "intelligent
villain" was an oxymoron or not.
paul
Joshua Grass
>Search, Part II". If you haven't seen the show and don't want to be spoiled,
>consider yourself warned.
>the sort of *story* we're in for ... uh-oh.
>titles:
>
>------
>Summary: While Kira and Odo get to know Odo's people, Sisko returns from the
>Gamma Quadrant to find negotiations taking a decidedly strange and sinister
>turn.
>------
>
>-- The Romulan exclusion from the peace talks makes zero sense, even given
>that it's a test. Its whole purpose was solely to get Sisko ticked off
>(especially the more-than-a-bit-exploitative death of T'Rul), and there was
>no logic given for it at all other than "it's what the Founders want". WHY?
>
Tim, I find myself agree with your assesment of episode, I was surprised that
you didn't like the Romulan exclusion. To me, that was the most clever part
of the whole episode. The Dominion plan to give the Federation something
they desperately want, namely, the elimination of the Romulan Threat. The
only neighboring empire that the Feds haven't made a treaty with (before
anyone talks about the Borg, remember I said neighboring) that basically
eliminates a possiblity of war. This places The Dominion in such a better
bargaining position, that the agreement to allow The Dominion to have Bajor
makes total sense. When the Admiral sadi, "I don't think we'll have to worry
about the Romulans anymore." (That quote is not exact) The Federation's
thinking made total sense, and my view of The Dominions diplomatic skills
increased greatly. The rest of the episode, I agree 100% percent, but the
Romulan exclusion was very smart.
Todd Horowitz
>Timothy W. Lynch <tly...@juliet.caltech.edu> wrote:
>>mc...@math.ohio-state.edu (Ted McCoy) writes:
> I'm not so sure the Changelings FORCED a Dominion structure on
>the Gamma Quadrant....I think it began as a beneficial union that was
>worked out through underlings. Certainly, I think as a strategy, the
>Changelings' taking the initiative and forming a union they control
>through proxies is fairly viable....
I thought it was pretty clear from the dialogue that the Dominion was
formed specifically in order for the Changelings to take control over the
solids, in response to the solids' persecution of the changelings. Certainly
the changelings may think that they are providing a service by imposing Order,
though it sounded less like they thought Order was good for their subjects than
they thought that Order was good for its own sake. There was no hint that the
Dominion began as a union that was beneficial to anyone but the Founders.
>>>And given the power they obviously can exercise through The
>>>Dominion over "solids," this actually seems like an effective way for them
>>>to protect themselves.
>>In the short run, yes. Not in the long, IMO.
> Depends on how light or how heavy a hand they use, and how adept
>they are. We've seen dissident elements from the Dominium before, but
>that only makes sense; you're not going to see that many people on the
>run from the Dominion who like them....
The Dominion seems to use a heavy hand. If you disobey them, they send
in the Jem'Hadar. And then you die.
> If the vast majority of the Dominion LIKES the way they handle
>things, then the Dominion is stable...
Well, its possible that most people like the way things are run.
But stability alone is not enough: South Africa was stable, and so was
the Soviet bloc.
> Actually, it seems obvious to me that there is some long range
>threads at work. The temptation here is to resolve them too quickly...
>
A temptation they seem to be succumbing to. Idenitfying the Founders
with the Changelings is a quick and dirty solution, and identifying the
mysterious Founders (who have remained anonymous from their subjects for
apparently centuries) within a few episodes after we hear of them is not a
sign that the writers are thinking long-term.
>>>I'd prefer to see the Dominion be more complex,
>>>with a variety of different races each with its own nature and motives. And I
>>>think more could have been done with the Changelings if they hadn't been made
>>>into simple "enemies of the Federation." Although I disagree with your
>>>argument that making them "the bad guys" limits their possible interactions
>>>with Odo, I do think it limits their possible interactions with the
>>>Federation, which is disappointing.
>>There may have been a lot of this lurking in my head as well, though it never
>>quite made it into print. I completely agree here.
> And I'll agree here, too....
Me too! Me too!
> As a whole, it was strongly acted and directed (I was REALLY
>impressed by Frakes' work here; very dynamic camera angles and good
>interaction, yet they were integrated into the overall storytelling), but
>weakly plotted....
I agree. This seems to be a persistent pattern with Star Trek. I
noticed it strongly in the last few seasons of TNG; they're good at dialogue,
and they have talented actors and directors, but the stories themselves are
often neglected. Scene by scene, the episodes are great, but these well-crafted
scens are hung on inane or inadequately thought-out stories. This has been more
true for TNg than DS9. I hope that DS9 doesn't fall into thus pattern any more
than it already has.
-todd
Todd Horowitz
>Tim Lynch:
>Tim McCoy:
>Time [sic] Lynch:
>Tim McCoy:
>On the other hand, if I reversed the order of names, it's not a huge problem
>since both Tim and Tim were agreeing on just about everything.
Um... I think that's Tim and _Ted_ :)
>In the novel, and I would guess the original script (since the novelists are
>under instructions to follow the script, adding only texture and background)
>the show opens with Kira and O'Brien waging war against the Jem'Hadar, only
>to find out we're on the Holosuites. K&O are trying to develop a number of
>simulations that will prepare them for a possible battle with the
>Jem Ha'dar. The broadcast, on the other hand, opens with a staff meeting with
>Kira reporting the findings. Whether due to cost or time, I think leaving out
>the opening sequence was a mistake and contributed to the lame ending. It
>was a great setup to what the Dominion did during the entire second part - a
>simulation to determine how to deal with the Federation - a parallel to how
>we started the show. Not overly subtle, but much more viable in context.
That's interesting. That parallelism wouldn't have made up for the
lame-o conclusion that the Changelings were the Founders, nor for the apparent
decision to abandon an invasion of the Alpha Quadrant in order to make Odo
happy, but it would have taken the sting out of the "it was all a simulation"
revelation.
>I don't think people would have overreacted to the ending if
>we had seen the holosuite scene at the first. In fact, perhaps many people
>would be commenting on the similarities of the Dominion and the Federation in
>dealing with the First Contact issue.
Compare and contrast: Both the Federation and the Dominion use
simulations, however, the Federation simulates using their own people,
while the Dominion kidnaps the other side and uses THEM as simulation fodder!
-todd
Todd Horowitz
In article <1994Oct12....@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu>,
Paul Kearney <kea...@csri.toronto.edu> wrote:
>In article <37h6vs$k...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
>Todd Horowitz <to...@garnet.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>I think you have misread by post. First off, I partly agree with you.
>It is smart to attempt to attain your goals in a rational matter. I
>don't think anyone has said anything to the contrary. The question is
>whether villainous ends are themselves rational. That is, I could develop
>a very efficient and rational way to lose everything I own. But the end
>goal itself, to be broke and despondent, isn't necessarily a rational goal.
Why not? What if you subscribed to a philosophy by which material
goods were seen as hampering your spiritual progress? You would use the
most efficient means at your disposal to unencumber yourself.
>Actually, if you read my post more carefully you will see, hopefully, that
>I was commenting on Mr. Lynch's argument that villainous ends (this is how
>he sees the Founder's end goal, i believe) to be intrinsically unreasonable.
I don't think so. My impression was the Mr. Lynch was arguing that
domination would not be an efficient means to the end the Changelings had
in mind; avoiding persecution.
>Hence, by his argument, the phrase "intelligent villain" is somewhat of
>an oxymoron. I never stated myself that I thought the phrase "intelligent
>villain" was an oxymoron or not.
I don't agree with your reading of Lynch's argument; but if that IS
what he was arguing, I would agree with you.
-todd
just another theatre geek
Todd Horowitz <to...@garnet.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>In article <37c8c8$r...@nntp1.u.washington.edu>,
>just another theatre geek <gwan...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>>In article <37c3l8$5...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
>>Timothy W. Lynch <tly...@juliet.caltech.edu> wrote:
>>>mc...@math.ohio-state.edu (Ted McCoy) writes:
>> I'm not so sure the Changelings FORCED a Dominion structure on
>>the Gamma Quadrant....I think it began as a beneficial union that was
>>worked out through underlings. Certainly, I think as a strategy, the
>>Changelings' taking the initiative and forming a union they control
>>through proxies is fairly viable....
> I thought it was pretty clear from the dialogue that the Dominion was
>formed specifically in order for the Changelings to take control over the
>solids, in response to the solids' persecution of the changelings. Certainly
>the changelings may think that they are providing a service by imposing Order,
>though it sounded less like they thought Order was good for their subjects than
>they thought that Order was good for its own sake. There was no hint that the
>Dominion began as a union that was beneficial to anyone but the Founders.
Hmmm....you're probably right, reviewing the tape. Probably
wishful thinking on my part, looking for some complexities and shades of
gray in the situation (although it's a good questions if folks would pick
up on those shades....).
>> Depends on how light or how heavy a hand they use, and how adept
>>they are. We've seen dissident elements from the Dominium before, but
>>that only makes sense; you're not going to see that many people on the
>>run from the Dominion who like them....
>> If the vast majority of the Dominion LIKES the way they handle
>>things, then the Dominion is stable...
> Well, its possible that most people like the way things are run.
>But stability alone is not enough: South Africa was stable, and so was
>the Soviet bloc.
....Then again, Singapore and South Korea look pretty stable, and
without the long-term instabilities that were pretty apparent in South
Africa and the Soviet Union.
>> Actually, it seems obvious to me that there is some long range
>>threads at work. The temptation here is to resolve them too quickly...
> A temptation they seem to be succumbing to. Idenitfying the Founders
>with the Changelings is a quick and dirty solution, and identifying the
>mysterious Founders (who have remained anonymous from their subjects for
>apparently centuries) within a few episodes after we hear of them is not a
>sign that the writers are thinking long-term.
I'll have to agree with that. This whole storyline was better
played out as subtheme for the third season....
>> As a whole, it was strongly acted and directed (I was REALLY
>>impressed by Frakes' work here; very dynamic camera angles and good
>>interaction, yet they were integrated into the overall storytelling), but
>>weakly plotted....
> I agree. This seems to be a persistent pattern with Star Trek. I
>noticed it strongly in the last few seasons of TNG; they're good at dialogue,
>and they have talented actors and directors, but the stories themselves are
>often neglected. Scene by scene, the episodes are great, but these well-crafted
>scens are hung on inane or inadequately thought-out stories. This has been more
>true for TNg than DS9. I hope that DS9 doesn't fall into thus pattern any more
>than it already has.
I think that's a vain hope, with the departure of Crocker and
Fields and the addition of two TNG writer/producers....
--
Paul Kearney
Todd Horowitz <to...@garnet.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>increasingly obscure SPOILERS for "The Search 2"
>
>In article <1994Oct12....@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu>,
>Paul Kearney <kea...@csri.toronto.edu> wrote:
>>In article <37h6vs$k...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
>>Todd Horowitz <to...@garnet.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>
>>I think you have misread by post. First off, I partly agree with you.
>>It is smart to attempt to attain your goals in a rational matter. I
>>don't think anyone has said anything to the contrary. The question is
>>whether villainous ends are themselves rational. That is, I could develop
>>a very efficient and rational way to lose everything I own. But the end
>>goal itself, to be broke and despondent, isn't necessarily a rational goal.
>
> Why not? What if you subscribed to a philosophy by which material
>goods were seen as hampering your spiritual progress? You would use the
>most efficient means at your disposal to unencumber yourself.
>
>
Yes, what you say is true. However, my point is this. Suppose you subscribe
to philosophy X. Now I give you a reasonable plan to attain ~X (i.e. the
opposite of X ... I know, not necessarily well defined but I think you
know what I mean). If you executed my plan then you are behaving in an
intelligent, reasonable way in so far as you are attaining ~X in a reasonable
way. However, you still are not behaving in a reasonable way on a deeper level,
in the sense that you are not working towards a state you believe
is the "right" state for you.
paul
just another theatre geek
Todd Horowitz <to...@garnet.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>In article <37hqu4$e...@hpindda.cup.hp.com>,
>David Mears <me...@cup.hp.com> wrote:
> Necheyev has always been portrayed as a hardass. Only in "Journey's
>End" does she let her guard down, and that's because Jean-Luc makes her
>favorite canapes.
Which makes the lesson...It NEVER hurts to suck up to the boss.
(Hmm...maybe Ferengi and Star Fleet aren't so far apart after all....)
> The question is not should she be sympathetic to SISKO, but rather
>to Sisko's feelings about the Bajorans.
I think she should be (if written in hcaracter). Hardass she may
be, but they shouldn't stop her from being human. And she definitely
steamrollered over the Romulans and Bajorans in the simulation...
Again, you have to remember that up until they met the Dominion,
the Bajorans virtually OWNED the wormhole...that fact alone inspires a
certain loyalty to Bajor that even Necheyev would find hard to walk all
over...
--
Roger Tang, gwan...@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
The most unAmerican thing you can say is "He/she makes too much money."
Timothy W. Lynch
>In article <377n4d$e...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
>Timothy W. Lynch <tly...@juliet.caltech.edu> wrote:
Spoilers for "The Search, Pt II"
>I agree that it will require some "creative" thinking to explain
>why Odo felt the urge to return home (this, in itself, isn't a bad thing).
>However, your argument "Odo's been in the Gamma Quadrant before..." is
>rather silly.
Nope. Odo said, and I quote, "Ever since entering the Gamma Quadrant..."
This says that he's been feeling the compulsion since leaving wormhole. He's
certainly been that close before. Now, if you want to argue that FoundersWorld
has only recently moved closer to the wormhole, that's fine -- but it's a major
reach and we both know it. :-)
>>-- There is still no explanation given for how Odo and Kira got off the
>>Defiant last time around. Sure, it'd be easy to speculate that the Jem'Hadar
>>realized Odo was a Founder (or at least one of their race) and decided to let
>>them leave, but if so I imagine Odo would remember that as odd. Certainly,
>>his mental faculties weren't in short supply once he reached his home...
>Perhaps Odo did think it was odd.
Sorry. Occam's Razor as applied to drama says that if we didn't see or hear
references to people worrying about a topic, they didn't. Logic chains can be
extended behind the scenes, but not character interactions -- at least, not
without initial indications to go on, and here we had none.
>Thankfully, the writers allowed the viewers to detect this oddity themselves
>and create some suspense. I'm not sure what you were hoping for - perhaps
>you would have preferred the writers explain everything to us as the plot
>unfolded.
Paul, with respect, this sounds a little condescending. I don't need every-
thing spelled out to me, no; I could think of half a dozen ways they could have
gotten off the Defiant. The fact that we saw no *hint* of an explanation sug-
gests that the writers Just Didn't Care how they did, so long as they did.
That's my problem with it.
>>Alas, my answer to that question is "no, it wouldn't be cool at all; it'd be
>>dumb." The logic is very suspect here; the Changelings have had bad
>>experiences with "solids" and their resentment, right? So what possible
>>thought justifies the idea of forcing their will on *all* solids, so as to
>>give them both substantial contact with Borath's people *and* to give every
>>subject of the Dominion a legitimate _reason_ for resentment and attack? Odo
>>has been shown to be grim on many occasions, for certain, but he's never been
>>depicted as stupid. The Founders' reasoning here is not only barbaric (as
>>was pointed out), but simply short-sighted on a host of levels.
>>
>>Granted, this isn't necessarily a fatal flaw -- perhaps the eventual way to
>>solve the problems with the Dominion is to convince them of this fact. If
>>so, that will provide the idea with a little depth, and will help
>>substantially. However, given the lack of anyone pointing that out at
>>present, I have to say that I found the whole thing cheesy. (Maybe I'm just
>>pining for intelligent villains. Some of the Cardassians we've seen have
>>played that role; if they're to be shunted aside for the sake of burly
>>Jem'Hadar thugs, I have to wonder what the mindset is at Paramount Central
>>Command.)
>I find it hard to reconcile your comments. On one hand you are lamenting
>the irrational behaviour of a persecuted race.
Not irrational -- *stupid*, given their stated aims. They are ignoring the
fact that their very efforts to solve their problems will likely exacerbate
them in the long run. This is not an intelligent action.
>On the other hand you "pine for intelligent villains". By your own
>argument, aren't villains irrational at some level? Certainly a Vulcan
>would agree.
I'm not a Vulcan. :-) Villains may have some small streak of irrationality
in them as regards their goals -- but it is possible to have villains that go
about obtaining their goals very intelligently, and don't leave themselves open
to attack. That's what I mean by an intelligent villain. When we deal with
enemies, I want ones that are defeated because we're smart, not because they're
dumb.
>That is, by what you have said, the phrase "intelligent
>villain" is an oxymoron.
I don't understand how you got to that. I think you're confusing "intelligent"
with "rational", and the two aren't synonymous. Trust me; I teach bright
teenagers. :-)
>I'm not sure which Cardassians you are thinking
>of but we cannot include, under you criteria, the torturer of Picard
>(I forget his name) since he acted in an irrational way - torture has
>never been a reliable means of obtaining information.
You're thinking of Gul Madred -- and he wasn't one of them. Gul Dukat is my
first and most immediate thought on this subject.
[my complaints about what this does to Odo deleted]
>I think you are assuming that Odo will never ever return to his world
>or see his people (it was suggested that they may visit). Pretty big
>assumption.
Not entirely. I'm assuming he won't return as a welcome "teach me what I need
to know" subject, yes.
>The illusion was, of course, meant to be perceived by viewers.
You have proof of this, I trust? Sorry, but when I see something that's clear-
ly presented as a "sur-PRISE!" ending, I assume we're meant to be surprised.
Do you also think the main plot twist in "Whispers" was intended to be spotted?
>You comment that essentially nothing has been accomplished. I think you
>are assuming that the story was about Sisko trying to resolve the Dominion/
>Federation dispute.
The half that I was discussing at the time *was* about Sisko. The Odo plot
was not a "nothing accomplished" issue, and I acknowledged that.
Tim Lynch
Paul Kearney
David Mears <me...@cup.hp.com> wrote:
>Timothy W. Lynch (tly...@cco.caltech.edu) wrote:
>
>> Spoilers for "The Search, Pt II"
>
>
>> >I agree that it will require some "creative" thinking to explain
>> >why Odo felt the urge to return home (this, in itself, isn't a bad thing).
>> >However, your argument "Odo's been in the Gamma Quadrant before..." is
>> >rather silly.
>
>> Nope. Odo said, and I quote, "Ever since entering the Gamma
>> Quadrant..." This says that he's been feeling the compulsion since
>> leaving wormhole. He's certainly been that close before. Now, if you
>> want to argue that FoundersWorld has only recently moved closer to the
>> wormhole, that's fine -- but it's a major reach and we both know it.
>> :-)
>
>
>Perhaps . . . Odo felt a tickle in his being from the moment he entered
>the Gamma Quadrant. That small inkling of a feeling only became strong
>enough to be known as a draw once they went far enough in to be closer
>to the home world. Odo had always felt the little tickle every time he
>entered the GQ before, but it never became strong enough to identify and
>he always ignored it previously. But once he knew what it was this time,
>he realized he had felt it from the time he first entered the quadrant.
>
>Or maybe not. It's not really that important, I don't suppose.Has Odo always known he was from the Gamma Quadrant or is it something
he only thought probable? Certainly, if everytime he entered the Gamma
Quadrant he felt a slight longing then it would give him reason to
suspect his origins were in the Gamma Quadrant.
paul
Todd Horowitz
David Mears <me...@cup.hp.com> wrote:
>just another theatre geek (gwan...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
>> This portrayal of Necheyev is at odds with all previous
>> portrayals (more so on TNG than DS9, but still).
>Maybe. Maybe not. She seemed reasonably in character to me, based on
>the way she handled the Cardassian treaty stuff. She didn't care very
>much about the Federation colonists who were either forced to move or
>were forced to live under new Cardassian rule. Here she didn't seem
>to care too much about the Bajorans coming under Dominion rule or the
>Romulans being excluded from the bargaining. If the Federation might
>come out the slightest bit better for doing it that way, then by all
>means do it that way.
Except that in "Journey's End", she's quite sympathetic to the
colonists, to the point of taking their appeal to the Federation Council.
That doesn't mean that she's going to tolerate renegade Starfleet guerrilla's
in "The Maquis".
In "The Search" not only does the Dominion get
Bajor, but they're also clearly trying to drive a wedge between the Alpha Quad-
rant powers by not including the Romulans in the negotiations. I don't see
Necheyev as that naive.
But even if you think that Necheyev WOULD be that stupid, her ATTITUDE
is still wrong. She's not just arrogant, like in "Descent", but snide and
smug. The portrayal is all wrong. I hope it was deliberate.
-todd
just another theatre geek
>> Todd Horowitz <to...@garnet.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>> > That was my thought. Excluding the Romulans from the peace talks
>> >was actually a pretty clever, Machiavellian manipulation. The only problem
>> >was that this fell into the ham-handed treatment of the Federation leaders
>> >(personified in Necheyev): they'd have to be really stupid to fall for it.
>
>> Which SHOULD have been a flare-lit tipoff that this was a
>> simulation. This portrayal of Necheyev is at odds with all previous
>> portrayals (more so on TNG than DS9, but still).
>
>the way she handled the Cardassian treaty stuff. She didn't care very
>much about the Federation colonists who were either forced to move or
>were forced to live under new Cardassian rule.
Ahhh, but au contraire! Throughout JOURNEY'S END, she gave EVERY
indication that she cared about the colonists. It's just that she made a
conscious decision on what mattered more to her (remember that she tried
EVERYTHING Picard suggested before he did). She simply doesn't wear here
feelings on her sleeve.
Necheyev gets an overly bad rap because she isn't the warm 'n
fuzzy type of commanding officer we've come to expect from a Trek
officer. Hmmm......wasn't that what a lot of fans clamoring for.....?
--
Roger Tang, gwan...@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
The most unAmerican thing you can say is "He/she makes too much money."
Todd Horowitz
David Mears <me...@cup.hp.com> wrote:
>I do see the difference (slight) between the two ways she dealt with
>people. I wonder, though, if it might not simply be interpreted as a
>different way to deal with Picard vs. Sisko. I don't remember enough
>right now off the top of my head. Has she dealt with Sisko before in
>an earlier episode? If so, was she as (somewhat) sympathetic as she
>has been when dealing with Picard? Perhaps she's shown more sympathy
>in past dealings with Sisko and I'm just not remembering it well. In
>any case, it wasn't SO much diffferent as to jump out at me, though
>it apparently did for others. Oh well.
Necheyev has always been portrayed as a hardass. Only in "Journey's
End" does she let her guard down, and that's because Jean-Luc makes her
favorite canapes.
The question is not should she be sympathetic to SISKO, but rather
to Sisko's feelings about the Bajorans.
-todd
just another theatre geek
Todd Horowitz <to...@garnet.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>In article <37haf5$c...@nntp1.u.washington.edu>,
>just another theatre geek <gwan...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>>In article <37h6kb$k...@agate.berkeley.edu>,
>>Todd Horowitz <to...@garnet.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>Spoilers for "The Search" part deux:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> Which SHOULD have been a flare-lit tipoff that this was a
>>simulation. This portrayal of Necheyev is at odds with all previous
>>portrayals (more so on TNG than DS9, but still). It was an example of
>>extremely poor writing on this episode to have Sisko (though not
>>O'Brien or Bashir) overlook this.
>> Of course, it went over the heads of most netters, I'd say....
> Well, that's not fair. Either the Necheyev character is badly
>written, or it's a simulation and Sisko is badly written. How is one to
>decide?
Well, I was going "huh?" throughout the simulation, seeing how
Sisko didn;t raise one peep about the rapid accomodation and highly
unlikely poltiical happenings (secrecy is NOT a Federation hallmark).
Writers SHOULD have had Sisko pick up on this....
Todd Horowitz
Paul Kearney <kea...@csri.toronto.edu> wrote:
>Yes, what you say is true. However, my point is this. Suppose you subscribe
>to philosophy X. Now I give you a reasonable plan to attain ~X (i.e. the
>opposite of X ... I know, not necessarily well defined but I think you
>know what I mean). If you executed my plan then you are behaving in an
>intelligent, reasonable way in so far as you are attaining ~X in a reasonable
>way. However, you still are not behaving in a reasonable way on a deeper level,
>in the sense that you are not working towards a state you believe
>is the "right" state for you.
I completely agree. In fact, you have just stated the converse of
my argument.
As to the Changelings, they appear to desire to be left alone by the
solids. The question is, have they chosen a rational path to attain this
end? I think not.
-todd
Paul Kearney
Timothy W. Lynch <tly...@juliet.caltech.edu> wrote:
>kea...@csri.toronto.edu (Paul Kearney) writes:
>>In article <377n4d$e...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
>>Timothy W. Lynch <tly...@juliet.caltech.edu> wrote:
>
>Spoilers for "The Search, Pt II"
>
>
>>I agree that it will require some "creative" thinking to explain
>>why Odo felt the urge to return home (this, in itself, isn't a bad thing).
>>However, your argument "Odo's been in the Gamma Quadrant before..." is
>>rather silly.
>
>Nope. Odo said, and I quote, "Ever since entering the Gamma Quadrant..."
>This says that he's been feeling the compulsion since leaving wormhole. He's
>certainly been that close before. Now, if you want to argue that FoundersWorld
>has only recently moved closer to the wormhole, that's fine -- but it's a major
>reach and we both know it. :-)
>
suggesting it? :) ). My interpretation of Odo's quote above isn't
as literal as yours. I'm NOT suggesting your interpretation is wrong.
Perhaps 47 secs into the Gamma Quadrant Odo begins to feel his compulsion.
I don't think that Odo would say "47.3 secs after entering the wormhole I
started to feel this compulsion...". Instead, I think he would say
something like what he actually did say. Furthermore, travelling at warp speeds
for, say 47 secs, on a different vector than you ever have before, certainly
puts you in a different region of the quadrant. Small changes in the initial
settings yield vast changes in the output. I think this is a reasonable
interpretation, but still an interpretation.
>>>-- There is still no explanation given for how Odo and Kira got off the
>>>Defiant last time around. Sure, it'd be easy to speculate that the Jem'Hadar
>>>realized Odo was a Founder (or at least one of their race) and decided to let
>>>them leave, but if so I imagine Odo would remember that as odd. Certainly,
>>>his mental faculties weren't in short supply once he reached his home...
>
>>Perhaps Odo did think it was odd.
>
>Sorry. Occam's Razor as applied to drama says that if we didn't see or hear
>references to people worrying about a topic, they didn't. Logic chains can be
>extended behind the scenes, but not character interactions -- at least, not
>without initial indications to go on, and here we had none.
I agree with what you say. However, in my own defense, you haven't
responded to the jest of my argument to which the above was only
an offhanded leadin. I should have omitted it.
>>Thankfully, the writers allowed the viewers to detect this oddity themselves
>>and create some suspense. I'm not sure what you were hoping for - perhaps
>>you would have preferred the writers explain everything to us as the plot
>>unfolded.
>
>Paul, with respect, this sounds a little condescending. I don't need every-
>thing spelled out to me, no; I could think of half a dozen ways they could have
>gotten off the Defiant. The fact that we saw no *hint* of an explanation sug-
>gests that the writers Just Didn't Care how they did, so long as they did.
>That's my problem with it.
First off, I'm sorry I offended you, it wasn't intentional. At the risk of
sounding condescending again, writing commentaries and responding to
commentaries is always done at the risk of sounding condescending, no
matter how courteous we try to be.
Now, I have two problems with what you have said with respect to Odo and
Kira getting off the Defiant. Firstly, I honestly find it surprising
that you feel that an explanation, in the script, is necessary to explain how
they got off the Defiant. To me it seems fairly obvious how they got off.
I also preferred that the writers didn't explain it to us, mainly because
I think it is obvious.
Secondly, and more strongly, I disagree with what you have articulated to
be your problem with the omission of an explanation. You object to the
writers not caring to write in an explanation. Your evidence for this
is the omission itself. I believe that the quality of
a story doesn't depend upon how the writers feel about it. Furthermore,
in this case, I doubt that the writers "Just Didn't Care", and I also
doubt that they omitted an explanation by accident. I think that they
probably decided that an explanation wasn't necessary.
>I don't understand how you got to that. I think you're confusing "intelligent"
>with "rational", and the two aren't synonymous. Trust me; I teach bright
>teenagers. :-)
Perhaps you should give me a lesson in semantics. I teach bright
undergraduates and wouldn't know. :)
Now that you have further articulated your view I am more sympathetic to
what you originally said, although I still have problems with it.
>>The illusion was, of course, meant to be perceived by viewers.
>
>You have proof of this, I trust? Sorry, but when I see something that's clear-
>ly presented as a "sur-PRISE!" ending, I assume we're meant to be surprised.
>Do you also think the main plot twist in "Whispers" was intended to be spotted?
How I feel about "Whispers" is irrelevent. The writers definitely gave clues.
The most obvious was the admiral referring to Sisko's desire to be an admiral.
This was mentioned in the first epsisode by Dax, an intimate friend of Sisko's
who Sisko obviously shared his aspirations with. It is doubtful that Sisko
shared his aspirations with the admiral. Yet, the admiral does refer to them.
Clearly, to me, these references are not accidental. To a lesser extent two
other incidents were hints to viewers. Jake's strange behaviour at the
dinner table ("You tell me...") was one. The other was extreme unlikelihood
that the Romulan would die in Sisko's arms: too much of an over-dramatization
for me to believe it was real.
There were other oddities that I think were too subtle for one
to consider them as "proof". The three I mentioned above were proof
enough for me. If these clues weren't meant to be spotted, especially
the clue involving the admiral, then why are they there? I wasn't surprised
by the ending, not because I am good at predicting where storylines are
heading, but because there were clues in the script.
The difference between you and I is that you "see something that's clearly
presented as a "sur-PRISE!" ending" and I see something that is not a surprise
ending for those who see the clues. This difference appears to arise from
the fact that I see the "admiral's clue" as being an obvious indication
that things aren't as they should be. It seems that you do not, although
I would like to hear your ideas on this point.
>Tim Lynch
paul
David Mears
> Spoilers for "The Search, Pt II"
> >I agree that it will require some "creative" thinking to explain
> >why Odo felt the urge to return home (this, in itself, isn't a bad thing).
> >However, your argument "Odo's been in the Gamma Quadrant before..." is
> >rather silly.
> Nope. Odo said, and I quote, "Ever since entering the Gamma
> Quadrant..." This says that he's been feeling the compulsion since
> leaving wormhole. He's certainly been that close before. Now, if you
> want to argue that FoundersWorld has only recently moved closer to the
> wormhole, that's fine -- but it's a major reach and we both know it.
> :-)
> Tim Lynch
Timothy W. Lynch
>In article <37ic31$4...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
>Timothy W. Lynch <tly...@juliet.caltech.edu> wrote:
>>Spoilers for "The Search, Pt II"
Paul, you wiped out the spoiler protection when you responded. Could you keep
it in, for the sake of those who haven't seen the show? Thanks.
>>>However, your argument "Odo's been in the Gamma Quadrant before..." is
>>>rather silly.
>>
>>Nope. Odo said, and I quote, "Ever since entering the Gamma Quadrant..."
>>This says that he's been feeling the compulsion since leaving the wormhole.
[snipperoo]
>My interpretation of Odo's quote above isn't
>as literal as yours.
Fair enough, though Odo's usually a reasonably literal guy. Can we agree that
it would have been far easier and less ambiguous to use what most people are
assuming was the case anyway -- namely that the sight of the nebula was the
trigger?
>>>>-- There is still no explanation given for how Odo and Kira got off the
>>>>Defiant last time around. Sure, it'd be easy to speculate that the Jem'
>>>>Hadar realized Odo was a Founder (or at least one of their race) and
>>>>decided to let them leave, but if so I imagine Odo would remember that as
>>>>odd.
>>>Perhaps Odo did think it was odd.
>>
>>Sorry. Occam's Razor as applied to drama says that if we didn't see or hear
>>references to people worrying about a topic, they didn't. Logic chains can be
>>extended behind the scenes, but not character interactions -- at least, not
>>without initial indications to go on, and here we had none.
>
>I agree with what you say. However, in my own defense, you haven't
>responded to the jest of my argument to which the above was only
>an offhanded leadin. I should have omitted it.
In that case, I'm not sure what your main point was. You said in effect "the
question is why it wasn't mentioned", and my answer is "because it's a gaping
plot hole they forgot to cover". To give another answer requires that the
characters be (1) amazingly stupid, or (2) reacting in ways we see absolutely
no sign of while they're off screen. Option (2) is sophistry, and (1) means
we choose between bad characterization and bad plotting. I prefer the latter,
though not by much.
>>>I'm not sure what you were hoping for - perhaps
>>>you would have preferred the writers explain everything to us as the plot
>>>unfolded.
>>
>>Paul, with respect, this sounds a little condescending. I don't need every-
>>thing spelled out to me, no; I could think of half a dozen ways they could
>>have gotten off the Defiant. The fact that we saw no *hint* of an explana-
>>tion suggests that the writers Just Didn't Care how they did, so long as
>>they did. That's my problem with it.
>First off, I'm sorry I offended you, it wasn't intentional. At the risk of
>sounding condescending again, writing commentaries and responding to
>commentaries is always done at the risk of sounding condescending, no
>matter how courteous we try to be.
I wasn't offended, merely a bit bristly. No problem -- and agreed on your
latter point.
>Now, I have two problems with what you have said with respect to Odo and
>Kira getting off the Defiant. Firstly, I honestly find it surprising
>that you feel that an explanation, in the script, is necessary to explain how
>they got off the Defiant. To me it seems fairly obvious how they got off.
I think the obvious explanation is what was intended, yes. However, my
problem is this:
When an oddity (be it plot-related, a moral dilemma, or what have you) exists
that jumps out at us like a lightning bolt, and *does not jump out at the
characters in the same way*, that implies the characters are blind. I consider
that poor writing under most circumstances. I felt the same way, for instance,
about the lack of concern for Valeris being mind-raped back in ST6 [he said,
reopening a major can of worms...]. Plotwise, it's easy to explain -- but it
then becomes a case of "gee, and neither Odo nor Kira thought this was
strange?". Either way, it's a substantial weakness.
>Secondly, and more strongly, I disagree with what you have articulated to
>be your problem with the omission of an explanation. You object to the
>writers not caring to write in an explanation. Your evidence for this
>is the omission itself. I believe that the quality of
>a story doesn't depend upon how the writers feel about it.
Not at all? I think that's an unreasonable position. If a writer doesn't
give enough of a damn to make the story seem sensible, then the story will
suffer as a result. Poor quality does not imply that the writer didn't
give a damn -- but the writer not giving a damn *usually* brings about a poor
story.
>>>The illusion was, of course, meant to be perceived by viewers.
>>
>>You have proof of this, I trust? Sorry, but when I see something that's
>>clearly presented as a "sur-PRISE!" ending, I assume we're meant to be
>>surprised.
>>Do you also think the main plot twist in "Whispers" was intended to be
>>spotted?
>How I feel about "Whispers" is irrelevent.
No, it's not. It was another case where we had a surprise ending, and where
everything made sense in hindsight. I don't consider it even remotely
irrelevant.
>The writers definitely gave clues.
Yes, but this is the same problem I have with the escape from the Defiant.
Namely, if *we're* spotting all these clues and the characters *aren't*, it
implies one of two things:
1) The characters are buffoons, or
2) It's not a simulation and it's simply bad writing.
Simply put, we had the choice of "it's a simulation and none of the characters
have the brains to realize that Things Are Not What They Seem [tm]", or "it's
not a simulation, but it's cruddy characterization." Frankly, I don't like
either choice, and I haven't found a third option.
All of your bits of "proof" *could* simply be written off as poor storytelling.
For them to be actual clues, *someone* needs to pick up on them on the other
side of the screen.
>The difference between you and I is that you "see something that's clearly
>presented as a "sur-PRISE!" ending" and I see something that is not a surprise
>ending for those who see the clues.
The two aren't incompatible. I see something that was *intended* to be a
surprise ending (and Paramount's basically said so in public press bits about
the show), and wasn't -- thus, a lame surprise. You say it wasn't a surprise
ending. So do I. The difference is that I see it as a failing.
>This difference appears to arise from
>the fact that I see the "admiral's clue" as being an obvious indication
>that things aren't as they should be. It seems that you do not, although
>I would like to hear your ideas on this point.
I did consider it an obvious indication in the initial review. That's not the
point.
Tim Lynch
Kenny MacLeod
Does anyone know what date Generations is released in the UK?
Cheers
K
(Email replies appreciated)
---
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
{ Kenny MacLeod $ }
{ caa...@ccsun.strath.ac.uk $ If I want your opinion, I'll ask you }
{ Computer & Electronic Systems $ to fill out the necessary form. }
{ University of Strathclyde $ }
{ $ }
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Kenny MacLeod
Can someone tell me where I can get the Tim Lynch reviews.
Thanks
Kevin Desmond
> Does anyone know what date Generations is released in the UK?
>
the UK, Star Trek: Generations is currently scheduled to be released on
Friday 17th February. However they do emphasise that this date may well
move backward into March or later.
Regards : Kevin