[DS9] Lynch's Spoiler Review: "The Jem'Hadar"
Timothy W. Lynch
finale, "The Jem'Hadar". If spoilers offend you, don't go any further.
A nice show, and a nice looming thought to end the season with ... but Nog
needs a swift removal from the show. Now.
"The Jem'Hadar" suffered from a somewhat slow start and a focus on a
character who's so far gone as to merit summary introductions to an airlock,
but once it got moving, it was virtually unstoppable.
However, the focus on Jake and Nog (Nog in particular) did its best to break
every single bit of momentum the rest of the show was building up. I'm
tempted to blame the actor here, since *most* of Nog's actions and reactions
strike me as ones somewhat in character, but I simply cannot abide watching
Nog on screen. Nog seems to me to be a character with no redeeming features
whatsoever: he hasn't had any insights to lend to the show or to himself for
a long time, he is *not* good comic relief despite all attempts, and the
Ferengi squeals that are annoying from *anyone* are like nails on a
chalkboard in his case. Nog needs to be gone, and the sooner the better.
That aside, I liked most of the rest of "The Jem'Hadar" a lot. I thought the
majority of the Sisko/Quark sequences on values could have been chopped out
without much of a loss (though Quark's final rant to Sisko about it is quite
good), perhaps being replaced by a little more with Captain Keogh, whom I
liked quite a bit -- but Sisko and Jake were the usual strong pairing, and
Quark, unlike Nog, did have a strong role to play by the time the story had
come to its conclusion.
Then, of course, once the first two acts were gone, the show really got
started, with the arrival of Eris and the Jem'Hadar. Virtually every minute
after that (with the exception of Jake and Nog on the runabout, which was a
waste) had me absolutely riveted.
The Dominion has been built up for a while as a Big, Bad Enemy, and I've said
on more than one occasion that I'm not sure the show needs one beyond the
Cardassians. (Certainly, the whole mess with the Maquis seems a plentiful
supply of problems without adding in an anti-Federation in the bargain.)
However, it's something that could probably go either way -- and as enemies
go, the Dominion seem a prime catch.
It's tough to tell exactly what the Dominion are, or exactly what they want.
("Whatever they can get" is too easy an answer, so don't try it. :-) )
Certainly, any group that's going to send in something like the Jem'Hadar
(which I strongly suspect are essentially a mercenary arm and not a strongly
loyal one) to do the Dominion's dirty work is not one I'd want to be too
close to, but I want to know a lot more about their history, particularly
"The Founders". Going out on a limb, the Dominion might well have been
formed out of a major sense of "manifest destiny", convinced that they are
only fulfilling the role they're supposed to anyway -- and for all we know,
the alternatives in the Gamma Quadrant are a lot worse. However, we don't
know much yet, any more than Sisko and company do. I'll wait to see how it
plays out, but as a first glimpse this did a good job of whetting my
appetite.
The use of Eris as a spy was well done (though not surprising for several
reasons, which I'll go into later), but the image that got to me more, and I
suspect will make a bigger impression on most people, was the Dominion ship
making a suicide run on the USS Odyssey. Ouch. Sisko said that it was
showing how far the Dominion was willing to go to keep the Feds out of the
game. As far as I'm concerned, they may consider the point well and truly
made. Ouch.
(It's also worrying for another reason: those were *not* particularly large
Dominion ships; bigger than runabouts, but not by that much. If this sort of
thing is what the little ships can do, imagine what starship-sized vessels
are capable of...)
The Dominion's in danger of being put in an untenable position so far as our
expectations are concerned, though. So far, we've seen that they're willing
to run very elaborate games to lure victims in, we've seen that they have
incredible firepower and the will to use it, that we can't really hurt them
very much, that they apparently can transport over very long ranges (at
least, I'm assuming Eris beamed back *through* the wormhole, which is a
frightening thought), and that they can physically walk right through
containment fields. There is a real danger of the Dominion becoming a
supervillain, which may undercut their watchability. I hope not, and it's
certainly possible that we've seen their limits; but what we've seen so far
suggests that the Federation is in a *lot* of trouble. We'll have to see.
More than their actual actions, I liked a lot of the reactions to the
Dominion that we saw, particularly Keogh's reaction to the DS9 regulars
wanting to take part in the battle (a very sensible reaction on his part, I
might add), and especially Kira's reaction to the implied destruction of New
Bajor. She clearly had a lot of feeling invested in that colony, and for
good reason -- and to hear from some apparently invincible being standing in
front of you that "they fought well, for a spiritual people" while he hands
you a datapadd he took from the ruins has got to hurt. Kira was almost in
shock for the rest of that scene, and with good reason. I like it.
Then, there's Eris, who was probably my favorite guest character on the show.
Molly Hagan did a marvelous job of making Eris somewhat off-kilter, both in
her look and in her mannerisms, and despite my hunch from the start that she
was a plant, I warmed to her quite a bit as the show went on anyway.
However, given the sense it would make for the Dominion to run a decoy like
this, and given the mythological origins of Eris's name (Eris was the goddess
of discord, who threw the apple causing the Trojan War; literary fore-
shadowing if I ever heard it), I was pretty sure from the start that she was
Not A Trustworthy Sort.
That covers the major points. "The Jem'Hadar" was sort of a mix of two
things: a human/Ferengi show, which mostly didn't work, and the introduction
of the Dominion, which worked in spades.
Onwards to some shorter points, then:
-- Quark's idea about using the monitors to sell "collectibles" such as IDIC
pins had me absolutely rolling. Has Armin done any QVC Trek shows yet? If
not, he may have trouble keeping a straight face now...
-- Sisko and Jake's scene at the outset was good, but I thought Sisko came
down a little hard on Jake's initial science project. I realize he was just
trying to get Jake's enthusiasm up for the Gamma Quadrant, but "that's IT?"
is not the way to get your kid's interest level up, believe me.
-- It's a pity we didn't get to see more of Captain Keogh. I liked him, and
Dax's words with and about him were a highlight.
-- It's also a pity that the Jake/Nog scenes had as many problems as they
did. Most of Jake's ideas were very reasonable ones, and Cirroc Lofton is
doing his usual good job -- but Nog just isn't holding up the air above him,
let alone his end of the scene. Please, no more.
That would seem to do it ... and thus ends a season. Not with a whimper or a
bang, but with a bit of both. :-) With this likely to cause major problems
next year, and the Maquis situation likely to be a running problem for at
least the next half-season (until "Voyager" starts), the station has a lot on
its plate for next season. I intend to be there.
So, summing up:
Plot: Two for the price of one; unfortunately, only the one with long-term
ideas held up.
Plot Handling: A slow start, but nice work after that if you can overlook
Nog.
Characterization: Strong guests, good work with Sisko and the other
regulars, iffy Quark and *horrible* Nog. Remove that one.
OVERALL: Call it an 8. Not a bad way to end a season, but not their best,
either.
NEXT WEEK: A rerun, of course. See you in three months.
Tim Lynch (Harvard-Westlake School, Science Dept.)
BITNET: tlynch@citjulie
INTERNET: tly...@juliet.caltech.edu
UUCP: ...!ucbvax!tlynch%juliet.ca...@hamlet.caltech.edu
"Lieutenant, have you ever thought about serving on a starship?"
"I'm happy where I am."
"Good."
-- Keogh and Dax
--
Copyright 1994, Timothy W. Lynch. All rights reserved, but feel free to ask...
Bill Henley
I usually agree pretty closely with Tim's opinions, but in
this case I must take issue with his comment that "the use of
Eris as a spy was well done"-- I thought this plot element
was *the* weak spot of the show and threatened to make the whole
episode nonsensical. The problem is, it's been established
since the beginning of DS9 that visitors travel both ways
through the wormhole, and the DS9 crew doesn't stop or hinder
travelers from the Gamma Quadrant unless they have obvious
hostile intent. So why would the Dominion need to bother going
through this elaborate capture-and-escape charade just to plant
a spy on DS9? They could have sent all the secret agents
they wanted in the guise of innocent explorers, traders etc.
The spy business came across, to me, as a rather lame attempt
at a "tomato surprise" ending.
--
"The Eagle has landed; tell your children when; Time won't
drive us down to dust again." (Leslie Fish, "Hope Eyrie")
Mr. Bill Henley (aa396), Asst. Sysop, Cleveland Freenet SF &
Fantasy SIG (which isn't responsible for my weird opinions)
Timothy W. Lynch
Spoilers for "The Jem'Hadar" ahead:
>I usually agree pretty closely with Tim's opinions, but in
>this case I must take issue with his comment that "the use of
>Eris as a spy was well done"-- I thought this plot element
>was *the* weak spot of the show and threatened to make the whole
>episode nonsensical. The problem is, it's been established
>since the beginning of DS9 that visitors travel both ways
>through the wormhole, and the DS9 crew doesn't stop or hinder
>travelers from the Gamma Quadrant unless they have obvious
>hostile intent. So why would the Dominion need to bother going
>through this elaborate capture-and-escape charade just to plant
>a spy on DS9?
It's one thing to simply send someone onto the station. It's another to
have them earn Federation trust as a person with info *on* the Dominion,
and as such probably be privy to strategy sessions, or perhaps even being
able to direct Federation thinking towards the Dominion by good use of
disinformation.
Sorry, but I'll stand by Eris here. :-)
Tim Lynch
Chris Blaise
: However, the focus on Jake and Nog (Nog in particular) did its best to break
: tempted to blame the actor here, since *most* of Nog's actions and reactions
: strike me as ones somewhat in character, but I simply cannot abide watching
: Nog on screen. Nog seems to me to be a character with no redeeming features
: whatsoever: he hasn't had any insights to lend to the show or to himself for
: a long time, he is *not* good comic relief despite all attempts, and the
: Ferengi squeals that are annoying from *anyone* are like nails on a
: chalkboard in his case. Nog needs to be gone, and the sooner the better.
and...
: -- It's also a pity that the Jake/Nog scenes had as many problems as they
: did. Most of Jake's ideas were very reasonable ones, and Cirroc Lofton is
: doing his usual good job -- but Nog just isn't holding up the air above him,
: let alone his end of the scene. Please, no more.
I'm curious...did you have a bad experience with a Ferengi
childhood friend? :)
You do a lot of "Nog is bad" and "the actor is bad" but very
little into WHY either the character is so horrific or the person
protraying him is supposed to be doing such an awful job.
My interpretation of Nog is that he's *supposed* to be a pitiful
character. He's a Ferengi, isn't very smart, and his only friend appears
to be Jake. He seems to be pretty torn between the "hoo-mann" and
Ferengi worlds because of this friendship. Quark and Rom don't seem to
approve very highly (unless Quark thinks he can get something out of it,
like he did in this episode) and neither does Ben. He's been "quietly"
trying to convince Jake to dump Nog for the past year and a half!
Thus, I think the characterization for Nog and the acting in this
episode were *SUPERB*. Annoying, grating, and he had these RIDICULOUS,
STUPID ideas ("Fire phasers! Aaagh!"). Yet at the same time I was
thinking "Sheesh, what an unlucky guy!" I know kids who act like this!
With that said, I don't think "More Nog is Good." Just because I
can identify with him doesn't mean I could stand (or sit) watching him
week after week as a main character. But I think for what he's intended
to be, the character makes sense and is done well. As a reoccuring
character, I think he adds if but a small bit to the show.
TTYL
Chris
Paul Frankenstein
Timothy W. Lynch <tly...@juliet.caltech.edu> wrote:
* WARNING: This article contains heavy spoiler information for DS9's season
* finale, "The Jem'Hadar". If spoilers offend you, don't go any further.
* very much, that they apparently can transport over very long ranges (at
* least, I'm assuming Eris beamed back *through* the wormhole, which is a
That's what we're supposed to think. I feel that Eris simply was under
orders, should she be found out, to activate the wrist-mounted
transporter and beam herself into deep space at high dispersion. Kind
of a high-tech cyanide tooth, and it also gives your opponent the
illusion that you have somewhat greater technology that you already
do.
--
If you want to shrink something, be sure to stretch it. | frankenp
The way that can be discussed is not the constant Way. | @gas.uug
The sage does nothing and teaches without speaking. | .arizona
The way that is the true Way is inconstant. | .edu
David Thiel
>Timothy W. Lynch (tly...@cco.caltech.edu) wrote:
>: -- It's also a pity that the Jake/Nog scenes had as many problems as they
>: did. Most of Jake's ideas were very reasonable ones, and Cirroc Lofton is
>: doing his usual good job -- but Nog just isn't holding up the air above him,
>: let alone his end of the scene. Please, no more.
>
> Thus, I think the characterization for Nog and the acting in this
>episode were *SUPERB*. Annoying, grating, and he had these RIDICULOUS,
>STUPID ideas ("Fire phasers! Aaagh!"). Yet at the same time I was
>thinking "Sheesh, what an unlucky guy!" I know kids who act like this!
I want to go on the record as a supporter of Nog. One of my favorite things
about the first season of DS9 was the Jake/Nog friendship. Cirroc Lofton is
a fine young actor who is sadly underused, and Nog (sorry, can't recall the
actor's name) is very good at being Nog--a not-too-bright kid with a less-
bright father. It's been fun watching these two learn to appreciate each
other's cultural notions. I like the thought that these two--at some
unspecified date in the future--might become ambassadors for their
respective galactic powers, and find a common bond between Ferengi and
Federation. Also, since Jake is currently without a direction in life, and
has shown an aptitude for capitalism, it would be a kick to see him intern
under *Quark* for a while! That would really get the old man's goat!
Sorry, I want to see *more* Nog, not less. (But not too much--a little
"hu-man" goes a long way!)
David Thiel / Traffic Manager / WILL-TV / University of Illinois / Urbana
Internet: d-t...@uiuc.edu
Disclaimer: My views do not reflect those of WILL-TV, PBS or Barney.
Timothy W. Lynch
>: However, the focus on Jake and Nog (Nog in particular) did its best to break
>: every single bit of momentum the rest of the show was building up. I'm
>: tempted to blame the actor here, since *most* of Nog's actions and reactions
>: strike me as ones somewhat in character, but I simply cannot abide watching
>: Nog on screen. Nog seems to me to be a character with no redeeming features
>: whatsoever: he hasn't had any insights to lend to the show or to himself
>: for a long time, he is *not* good comic relief despite all attempts, and the
>: Ferengi squeals that are annoying from *anyone* are like nails on a
>: chalkboard in his case. Nog needs to be gone, and the sooner the better.
[some more deleted]
> I'm curious...did you have a bad experience with a Ferengi
>childhood friend? :)
I never grew up anywhere *near* Mr. Perot. :-)
> You do a lot of "Nog is bad" and "the actor is bad" but very
>little into WHY either the character is so horrific or the person
>protraying him is supposed to be doing such an awful job.
The paragraph enough isn't enough? I'm afraid it's all the explanation I can
give.
> My interpretation of Nog is that he's *supposed* to be a pitiful
>character.
No doubt -- and as such, much of the way the character was written in
"The Jem'Hadar" made sense, as I said. It doesn't alter the fact that the
depiction makes me want to change the channel, preferably with a brick.
There are actors who are good at playing annoying characters without actually
pissing off the viewer as well. John de Lancie, for instance, is one of them:
nobody likes Q inside the show, and for very good reason; but most of the
audience is a big fan of the character.
Majel Barrett, on the other hand, is someone who I don't think has ever quite
made the leap from playing an annoying character to being an annoying actress.
With very few exceptions, Lwaxana shows have always been lackluster at best.
Aron Eisenberg varies depending on the show. Despite the comments I made in
the review, I *do* like Nog much of the time, and I agree that his growing
friendship with Jake was a nice facet of DS9's first season.
However, in a show such as "The Jem'Hadar", he is out of place. He served no
purpose other than to break the tension down on Sisko's end by saying, in
effect, "hey, let's laugh at the dumb Ferengi." I wasn't laughing; I was
wincing.
> Thus, I think the characterization for Nog and the acting in this
>episode were *SUPERB*. Annoying, grating,
----------------
Bingo -- but there are ways to do that that don't grate on the viewer at the
same time, and he didn't pull it off. (To be fair, there aren't that many
actors, particularly of Eisenberg's age, who can; but even so, it wasn't
pleasant.)
Tim Lynch
Diane Witte
>aa...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bill Henley) writes:
>Spoilers for "The Jem'Hadar" ahead:
>>travelers from the Gamma Quadrant unless they have obvious
>>hostile intent. So why would the Dominion need to bother going
>>through this elaborate capture-and-escape charade just to plant
>>a spy on DS9?
>It's one thing to simply send someone onto the station. It's another to
>have them earn Federation trust as a person with info *on* the Dominion,
>and as such probably be privy to strategy sessions, or perhaps even being
>able to direct Federation thinking towards the Dominion by good use of
>disinformation.
I agree most hardily. Eris (sp?) was ment to get high level information.
In fact, I think it is apparent that the Dominion probably already has
send (many) spies through. How else would they have as much information
as they currently do about the Feds and stuff?
CtB
P.S., who was the actor who played the lead Dominion evil dude? Have we
seen him before? He looked, ah-- I mean _seemed_ really familiar. (Who
could recognize anyone in that much make-up??)
P.S.S., did thos Jem-guys look a bit similar to TOSK? Do you think those
people hunting the TOSK might be the elusive founders?
--
This here is a signature!
Roger Kemp
>WARNING: This article contains heavy spoiler information for DS9's season
>finale, "The Jem'Hadar". If spoilers offend you, don't go any further.
>
>Then, there's Eris, who was probably my favorite guest character on the show.
>Molly Hagan did a marvelous job of making Eris somewhat off-kilter, both in
>her look and in her mannerisms, and despite my hunch from the start that she
>was a plant, I warmed to her quite a bit as the show went on anyway.
>However, given the sense it would make for the Dominion to run a decoy like
>this, and given the mythological origins of Eris's name (Eris was the goddess
>of discord, who threw the apple causing the Trojan War; literary fore-
>shadowing if I ever heard it), I was pretty sure from the start that she was
>Not A Trustworthy Sort.
>Tim Lynch (Harvard-Westlake School, Science Dept.)
I too had doubts about that character especially due to a line she had in
the middle of the show. While escaping Sisko suggests that she return
with them to DS9 and tell them more about the Dominion. She says something
along the lines of:
I'd be glad to come along and tell you anything you want to know about the
Dominion
It struck me as an odd thing to say. I sensed a reluctance on her part
to discuss them earlier in the show. At the time it merely struck me
as an odd line, but perhaps it was subtle foreshadowing.
--
Roger Kemp
ke...@physics.ubc.ca
Roger Kemp
>I usually agree pretty closely with Tim's opinions, but in
>this case I must take issue with his comment that "the use of
>Eris as a spy was well done"-- I thought this plot element
>was *the* weak spot of the show and threatened to make the whole
>episode nonsensical. [...]
> They could have sent all the secret agents
>they wanted in the guise of innocent explorers, traders etc.
Perhaps disinformation would be a reasonable motive to send her.
The guards were certainly familiar with the races from the near
side of the worm hole so I don't think they expect to be able
to get much useful intel from Eris. Perhaps they hoped to establish
her as the local Domion expert/advisor to the Federation.
--
Roger Kemp
ke...@physics.ubc.ca
Jennifer Basil
: >: However, the focus on Jake and Nog (Nog in particular) did its best to break
: >: every single bit of momentum the rest of the show was building up. I'm
: >: tempted to blame the actor here, since *most* of Nog's actions and reactions
: >: strike me as ones somewhat in character, but I simply cannot abide watching
: >: Nog on screen. Nog seems to me to be a character with no redeeming features
: >: whatsoever: he hasn't had any insights to lend to the show or to himself
: >: for a long time, he is *not* good comic relief despite all attempts, and the
: >: Ferengi squeals that are annoying from *anyone* are like nails on a
: >: chalkboard in his case. Nog needs to be gone, and the sooner the better.
I *totally* agree! I mean, both Quark and his brother are supposed to be
annoying...and they *are*. But I don't dread their appearance on screen!
I think the sweet protectiveness that Jake has for Nog is the *only* good
thing to come out of Nog's existance. It says "Jake is someone with
a good heart", without screaming it at you (as TNG has done on occasion..).
I really liked this episode, as I had no idea (well, not "no") what would
happen next. Plus, I absolutely loved Quark's rant at Sisko. Humanity in
both TNG and DS9 can be pretty self-righteous (I really hated each
time someone would credit something nifty Data did to...."well, yer
just so durn *human* sometimes!" Please.), and I thought Quark was
pretty justified. He's annoying/complicated/decentsometimes/humorous.
I love Quark!
Jenny
--
Jennifer Basil (ba...@bio.bu.edu) Has angst, will travel.
"Things that are lovely
can tear my heart in two
Moonlight on still ponds..
...you."
Dorothy Dow
Lance Bernard
>With very few exceptions, Lwaxana shows have always been lackluster at best.
I have no real opinion on this, other than to say that one of the best bits
of humor I've ever seen in TNG was in the episode in which Lwaxana, et al
were kidnapped by the Ferengi gent and Picard was forced (with great
discomfort) to declare his love for her in front of the entire bridge crew,
starting awkwardly with everyone smirking and eventually retreating into
"Shall I compare thee to ...." as he gathered steam. I thought it was a hoot!
Iain Robert Asplin
>finale, "The Jem'Hadar". If spoilers offend you, don't go any further.
>
>
>every single bit of momentum the rest of the show was building up. I'm
>tempted to blame the actor here, since *most* of Nog's actions and reactions
>strike me as ones somewhat in character, but I simply cannot abide watching
>Nog on screen. Nog seems to me to be a character with no redeeming features
>whatsoever: he hasn't had any insights to lend to the show or to himself for
>a long time, he is *not* good comic relief despite all attempts, and the
>Ferengi squeals that are annoying from *anyone* are like nails on a
>chalkboard in his case. Nog needs to be gone, and the sooner the better.
>BITNET: tlynch@citjulie
>INTERNET: tly...@juliet.caltech.edu
>UUCP: ...!ucbvax!tlynch%juliet.ca...@hamlet.caltech.edu
How about this scenario? During the Dominion opener next year (I've
head that this one was part one of a three part arc), or perhaps at the
end of it, what if Nog were a casualty of war? And what if Jake was
there to see it happen? In a sense, he'd be going through what Sisko
went through at Wolf 359 only this time from something closer to Sisko's
POV. We then hae an episode where we see him deal with this with
help from his dad, and perhaps he changes his mind about entering
Starfleet, perhaps wanting a taste of revenge against the Dominion?
Yes, revenge is something humans are supposed to be beyond, so perhaps
that's too strong a word, but I think you know what I mean. It would
be sort of the same reasoning for why O'Brien stayed in Starfleet after
Setlik Three.
Timothy W. Lynch
>>With very few exceptions, Lwaxana shows have always been lackluster at best.
Careful, Lance. Chris didn't write that, and may not even agree with it.
I wrote it. Please be careful about attributions!
Tim Lynch
Mike Batchelor
>cbl...@mole.uvm.edu (Chris Blaise) writes:
>>Timothy W. Lynch (tly...@cco.caltech.edu) wrote:
>>: However, the focus on Jake and Nog (Nog in particular) did its best to break
>>: every single bit of momentum the rest of the show was building up. I'm
>>: tempted to blame the actor here, since *most* of Nog's actions and reactions
>>: strike me as ones somewhat in character, but I simply cannot abide watching
>>: Nog on screen. Nog seems to me to be a character with no redeeming features
>>: whatsoever: he hasn't had any insights to lend to the show or to himself
>>: for a long time, he is *not* good comic relief despite all attempts, and the
>>: Ferengi squeals that are annoying from *anyone* are like nails on a
>>: chalkboard in his case. Nog needs to be gone, and the sooner the better.
>[some more deleted]
>Aron Eisenberg varies depending on the show. Despite the comments I made in
>the review, I *do* like Nog much of the time, and I agree that his growing
>friendship with Jake was a nice facet of DS9's first season.
[...]
>Bingo -- but there are ways to do that that don't grate on the viewer at the
>same time, and he didn't pull it off. (To be fair, there aren't that many
>actors, particularly of Eisenberg's age, who can; but even so, it wasn't
>pleasant.)
>Tim Lynch
I'm surprised no one has compared him to Brian Bonsall as Alexander. At
the very least, Aron does not play his character so woodenly as Bonsall
does his. Nog is *animated*. Alexander is a paper cut-out of a little
boy.
--
Mike Batchelor | UseLinuxUseLinuxUseLinuxUseLinuxUseLinuxUseLinuxUseLinux
mik...@netcom.com | xuniLesUxuniLesUxuniLesUxuniLesUxuniLesUxuniLesUxuniLesU
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you as sick of the Flintstones as I am?
--
Mike Batchelor | UseLinuxUseLinuxUseLinuxUseLinuxUseLinuxUseLinuxUseLinux
mik...@netcom.com | xuniLesUxuniLesUxuniLesUxuniLesUxuniLesUxuniLesUxuniLesU
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you as sick of the Flintstones as I am?
Ron C. Carman
>WARNING: This article contains heavy spoiler information for DS9's season
>finale, "The Jem'Hadar". If spoilers offend you, don't go any further.
> Nog needs to be gone, and the sooner the better.
I'm not quite ready to go that far. Certainly he's on his way
to that extreme. But he's not quite the valueless sludge that we
had in Alexander/Brian Bonsall, who needed to be gone after the
first episode he was in... ;-)
>The Dominion has been built up for a while as a Big, Bad Enemy, and I've said
>on more than one occasion that I'm not sure the show needs one beyond the
>Cardassians. (Certainly, the whole mess with the Maquis seems a plentiful
>supply of problems without adding in an anti-Federation in the bargain.)
>However, it's something that could probably go either way -- and as enemies
>go, the Dominion seem a prime catch.
Here I'd have to agree. Not only does DSN have enough villains around
already, but now they've added a new one that, at first glance, appears
to be a Borg clone.
By "Borg clone" I mean that it seems that the writers have just created
another race of beings that by all evidence, *should be unbeatable*.
They can walk through force shields, teleport themselves great distances,
and two of their ships the size of a runabout can cause major damage
to a Galaxy-class starship -- without sustaining any damage themselves.
The Jem'Hadar look very interesting, despite all that. I'll just
force myself to reserve judgement until we see a bit more of them.
>The Dominion's in danger of being put in an untenable position so far as our
>expectations are concerned, though. So far, we've seen that they're willing
>to run very elaborate games to lure victims in, we've seen that they have
>incredible firepower and the will to use it, that we can't really hurt them
>very much, that they apparently can transport over very long ranges (at
>least, I'm assuming Eris beamed back *through* the wormhole, which is a
>frightening thought), and that they can physically walk right through
>containment fields. There is a real danger of the Dominion becoming a
>supervillain, which may undercut their watchability. I hope not, and it's
>certainly possible that we've seen their limits; but what we've seen so far
>suggests that the Federation is in a *lot* of trouble. We'll have to see.
Even if we *have* seen their limits, I would have to say that those
limits are certainly sufficiently distant to make any fight between the
Federation and the Jem'Hadar look like a bout between Mike Tyson and
Mother Theresa... ;)
>"Lieutenant, have you ever thought about serving on a starship?"
>"I'm happy where I am."
>"Good."
> -- Keogh and Dax
Which reminds me: it's good to see that DSN is getting some use out of
TNG's model of the Enterprise.
Ron Carman
--
| Ron C. Carman || That's the trouble with feeling as if you're |
| rcca...@netcom.com || on top of the world. It's always a sure sign |
| rcca...@ukpr.uky.edu || you and it are about to switch places. |
| U.S. SnailMAIL: P.O. Box 24352 Lexington, KY 40524-4352 |
Todd M. Swan
>WARNING: This article contains heavy spoiler information for DS9's season
>finale, "The Jem'Hadar". If spoilers offend you, don't go any further.
>A nice show, and a nice looming thought to end the season with ... but Nog
^^^
>needs a swift removal from the show. Now.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>"The Jem'Hadar" suffered from a somewhat slow start and a focus on a
>character who's so far gone as to merit summary introductions to an airlock,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>but once it got moving, it was virtually unstoppable.
<later...>
>... Nog needs to be gone, and the sooner the better.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
<...later...>
>... but Nog just isn't holding up the air above him,
>let alone his end of the scene. Please, no more.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
<... and later...>
>Characterization: Strong guests, good work with Sisko and the other
> regulars, iffy Quark and *horrible* Nog. Remove that one.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Gee, Tim... What do you *really* think of Nog? :-) I can't remember
many times when you've expressed an idea so many times in a single
post. You must have *very* strong feelings on this particular
subject...
I can't say I disagree with you. But I had similar feelings about
Deanna Troi at first, but after her toughening in season 6 she became
one of my favorite characters. Maybe the same thing will happen with
Nog. (Hopefully, it won't take another 4 seasons, though... :-)
Todd
--
_____ __ __ ____ Todd M. Swan - Chrysler Financial, Center Line, MI
|_ _| \/ | ___| t...@cfc.com (NeXTmail)
| | | |__ | The flame at the heart of a pawnbroker's diamond
|_| |_|\/|_|____| is a cold fire. - Rush
Larry Jeung
Diane Witte <dwit...@ursa.calvin.edu> wrote:
>P.S.S., did thos Jem-guys look a bit similar to TOSK? Do you think those
>people hunting the TOSK might be the elusive founders?
I also saw the resemblance. Even though the Tosk had yellow eyes, the
two species might be related. Just as the Tosk were bred to be
intelligent and sentient prey, the Jem'Hadar may have been bred for
fighting.
Lawrence Jeung
San Francisco State University
Department of Physics and Astronomy
Todd Horowitz
Ron C. Carman <rcca...@netcom.com> wrote:
>tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
> Here I'd have to agree. Not only does DSN have enough villains around
>already, but now they've added a new one that, at first glance, appears
>to be a Borg clone.
> By "Borg clone" I mean that it seems that the writers have just created
>another race of beings that by all evidence, *should be unbeatable*.
>They can walk through force shields, teleport themselves great distances,
>and two of their ships the size of a runabout can cause major damage
>to a Galaxy-class starship -- without sustaining any damage themselves.
Actually, the Dominion are not really a Borg clone. They do seem to be
technologically more advanced than the Federation, from the small sample of
their abilities we've been given. In other ways, however, they are a quite
conventional enemy, interested in territory and political power and composed of
individuals with different agendas. In fact, since they're not even monoracial
like the Romulans/Klingons/Cardassians/you-name-it, they are in some sense the
anti-borg. Instead of a single collective consciousness, they are a (possibly
fragile) alliance of enities with possibly diverse interests.
> Even if we *have* seen their limits, I would have to say that those
>limits are certainly sufficiently distant to make any fight between the
>Federation and the Jem'Hadar look like a bout between Mike Tyson and
>Mother Theresa... ;)
After rewatching "The Jem'Hadar", I'm beginning to suspect that Sisko
sized their weaknesses up properly in the cavern: they're overconfident.
> Which reminds me: it's good to see that DSN is getting some use out of
>TNG's model of the Enterprise.
Now if only they'd start using some other models. Starfleet should
deploy MORE THAN ONE starship at DS9!
-todd
Joshua Grass
responses this time (people have posted some). With all the posting
about trek vs B5 I thought it might be interesting to start a thread
about what kind of show the people on these groups would like to watch.
On Earth, on another planet, on a ship, on a base, during a war, after/
before a war, in the far future in the near future? I, at least, am
curious about what kind of a sci-fi show people would love to make
if they could.
Joshua
David Steers
Well in my show there would be no threads in it about what is science fiction
and what isn't and no thread aboaut what type of show I would do. Oh well, I
am sure there are others out there that care.
My show would have the Internet very involved as a major part of the plot!
--
Keep a cool and _\|/_ Have a good Weekend!
{ó ò}
==================================ooO=(_)=Ooo==================================
Lance Bernard
Uh...you're right...er...I sorta lost count on the number of relevant
indents while gaily "dd'ing" the original post. My apologies to you
& Chris.
Robert Everett Brunskill
Joshua Gr...@cs.umass.ed
> responses this time (people have posted some). With all the posting
> about trek vs B5 I thought it might be interesting to start a thread
> about what kind of show the people on these groups would like to watch.
>
I have two shows I'd love to see done. Both are based on manga
(japanese comics), and one of the manga series has been translated to
english. The two are:
Masamue Shirow's 'Appleseed'
Set on a future earth, ravaged by war and natural disasters. The
story mainly revolves around Deunan Knute, and her cyborg parter
Briareos Hechatonchires. So far the story has been set in Olympus, a
utopia city that even includes bioroids, geneticly engineered 'people'
to run the city, and care for the original species (pure humans).
Shirow has several plots going at once, and each is very intricate, and
suprising.
While the second book, 'Promethieus Unbound' was very loosely
translated into an hour long OVA (Original Video Animation), it lost
much of the intricasies of Shirow's plot and characterization. Shirow's
story line could easily be made into 2+ hour movies per book, or into a
short series.
Being a fan of Shirow's work, I highly suggest reading Appleseed if
you can, although it is difficult to find individual issues, or the
compilations any more. There are 4 books.
Mamoru Nagano's 'The Five Star Stories'
The setting of this series is in a five star cluster known as the
'Joker System'. The story takes place during a warring time in the
Joker System. Several powerful kingdoms exist, and eventually the
entire system will be under a single empire. The main characters are
'Headliners', knights and kings who pilot giant robot warmachines called
'Mortarheads', with the help of their 'Fatima', biological computers.
The story is very complex, and has numerous characters. Nagano will
change time period or change between story lines as it fits into the
story he's telling. He'll begin a story, give a history of certain
characters when necessary, and on some occassions jump to the future to
show the results of specific actions or events.
A 'Five Star Stories' movie was produced, however it didn't have
Nagano's approval before hand, and cut out bits of the story for
simplicity. However, the movie was still fairly good in production
quality. The series 'Heavy Metal L-Gaim' also had Nagano heavily
involved, and it's plot is basicly events that happen in the future of
'Five Star Stories', although the two do not exactly coincide.
'The Five Star Stories' would probably be better as a series of
movies, instead of a TV series. The changes in setting would easliy
disorient inconsistant viewers.
I suggest reading 'Five Star Stories' as well, however there have
been no english translations of the manga. My limitted knowledge of the
story comes from sysnopsies, and looking through the original Japanese
work.
It would be great to see these two stories have a more faithful
adaption produced, which captured the intricasies of the original plots
and characters.
Rob
Chief Rep. of n'grath Insect Repellents..
> In article <2u7kj0$4...@opine.cs.umass.edu>, jgr...@cs.umass.edu (Joshua Grass) writes:
>> I thought I'd post this thread head again to see if there were more
>> responses this time (people have posted some). With all the posting
>> about trek vs B5 I thought it might be interesting to start a thread
>> about what kind of show the people on these groups would like to watch.
>> On Earth, on another planet, on a ship, on a base, during a war, after/
>> before a war, in the far future in the near future? I, at least, am
>> curious about what kind of a sci-fi show people would love to make
>> if they could.
>
> Well in my show there would be no threads in it about what is science fiction
> and what isn't and no thread aboaut what type of show I would do. Oh well, I
> am sure there are others out there that care.
>
> My show would have the Internet very involved as a major part of the plot!
You mean like using the net is a prelude to an invasion by evil aliens
from Eddore... :)
-- GSH
**********************************************************************
As Babylon 5 ratings soar to new heights the production staff at
Star Trek show their displeasure with a new ship design...
_ _
|_| |_|
| | | |
| | | |_
.-| | | | _| | | |-.
| | | | |'| | `| | | | |
\ . / ___ \ /
`\ /' _____.------'---`------._____ `\. /'
`|__|_.----' '' ' "" " """ " "" ` `` `----._|__|
======================NCC-1701FU=======================
| | `---.___```------------ '''___.---' | |
| | `------.___.------' | |
`\`\ \``|_|''/ /'/'
`\`\ __>\|o|/<__ /'/'
`\`\ .'.'__|_|__`.`. /'/'
`\`======|_.-' .---. `-._|======'/'
`-._ `---' _.-'
`-----'
***********************************************************************
* I'm afraid I can't take credit for the drawing - some genius did it *
* in the Trek group - very very funny though *
***********************************************************************
prha...@eos.ncsu.edu
In article <2u7eng$l...@agate.berkeley.edu>, to...@garnet.berkeley.edu (Todd Horowitz) writes:
>
> After rewatching "The Jem'Hadar", I'm beginning to suspect that Sisko
> sized their weaknesses up properly in the cavern: they're overconfident.
>
> > Which reminds me: it's good to see that DSN is getting some use out of
> >TNG's model of the Enterprise.
>
> Now if only they'd start using some other models. Starfleet should
> deploy MORE THAN ONE starship at DS9!
>
>
> -todd
>
Yes, but that premise was made on an "false" situation. The Jem'Hadar did
want Sisko to escape, so that the spy could be planted. If they surrounded
the force field with a hundred guards, they would not even think of escaping.
If they were so over-confident, they would have sent one ship to kick the
Odessey's butt. After all, they can fire through shields and are unaffected
by the Fed's weapons. Would you send three ships if you knew all this?
Pico
rob...@lightman.com.au
As the producer of a upcoming medium-budget science fiction drama series
here in Australia, I would LOVE to tell you about my show, but to do so
would (I understand) release it into the public domain, which would not
be beneficial to me at all! I also hope that NOBODY ELSE posts an idea
the same as or substantially similar to to our concept because this
would be, frankly, a major bummer.
Some things I can tell you is that we have several TNG, DS9 and B5 fans
within our production team, and we are drawing on what these shows have
achieved and (we hope) even improving on it a little.
We are doing a parallel universe story and are trying to keep it as hard
SF as possible. We have an episodic budget of approximately $AU150,000
($US125,000). All editing and special effects production will be done on
computer, which will help to keep the budget down.
We do not have a US release deal yet, but we are hoping.
Robert Lightman
BTW, does anyone know if the pilot "Doorways" was ever shown in the US?
Did it ever make it to a series?I had heard a little about it, but
nothing for the last 12 months or so.
Todd Horowitz
>In article <2u7eng$l...@agate.berkeley.edu>, to...@garnet.berkeley.edu (Todd Horowitz) writes:
>> After rewatching "The Jem'Hadar", I'm beginning to suspect that Sisko
>> sized their weaknesses up properly in the cavern: they're overconfident.
>Yes, but that premise was made on an "false" situation. The Jem'Hadar did
>want Sisko to escape, so that the spy could be planted.
I know that. I don't mean that the Jem'Hadar were really overconfident
in that situation. I'm trying to psych out the writers rather than to take the
episode at face value. I think that Sisko's comments in the cavern are going
to be prophetic. The Jem'Hadar have a technological advantage over the Feder-
ation (if we assume they're not bluffing); I'll bet that the crux of this arc
is that the Dominion relies too heavily on this and thus underestimates the
federation.
-todd
Timothy W. Lynch
>In article <2tnthp$4...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>, tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>>WARNING: This article contains heavy spoiler information for DS9's season
>>finale, "The Jem'Hadar". If spoilers offend you, don't go any further.
>>A nice show, and a nice looming thought to end the season with ... but Nog
> ^^^
>>needs a swift removal from the show. Now.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[several other occurrences deleted]
>Gee, Tim... What do you *really* think of Nog? :-) I can't remember
>many times when you've expressed an idea so many times in a single
>post. You must have *very* strong feelings on this particular
>subject...
Where this episode is concerned, yes. I thought Nog had some redeeming
features in the first season, but watching "The Jem'Hadar" made me hard-
pressed to think of any of them.
Tim Lynch
Mark Sulkowski
> I thought I'd post this thread head again to see if there were more
> responses this time (people have posted some). With all the posting
> about trek vs B5 I thought it might be interesting to start a thread
> about what kind of show the people on these groups would like to watch.
I would like to watch a show that:
1) Dealt with the concept of physical immortality and attendant technology
(such as cryonics) in a POSITIVE way. I am sick to death of the "evil
man is revived from cryonic suspension and terrorizes the crew" plots.
(For this reason "Deathwalker" irked me a little bit, but I still enjoyed
it.)
2) Dealt with the concept of physical transcendence in a positive way.
("Mindwar" came close to what I want, though the usual "you are not ready
for this message" was present.)
3) Dealt with nanotechnology in a believable way.
4) Showed libertarian-style free societies and free markets in a positive
(but not utopic) light. (Get Vernor Vinge to write a few scripts. :)
5) Present a morality of rational, prudent self-interest in a positive light.
Kindness and generosity okay, but tone down the altruism.
and:
6) Get me in a cameo shot. :)
Mark | Laissez Faire Books -> the best source of books about
Andrew | 942 Howard Street individual liberty, free markets,
Sulkowski | San Francisco, CA 94103 and limited government. Call or
S/T NFLP | 800-326-0996 write for their free catalog!
just another theatre geek
Todd Horowitz <to...@garnet.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>>Yes, but that premise was made on an "false" situation. The Jem'Hadar did
>>want Sisko to escape, so that the spy could be planted.
> I know that. I don't mean that the Jem'Hadar were really overconfident
>in that situation. I'm trying to psych out the writers rather than to take the
>episode at face value. I think that Sisko's comments in the cavern are going
>to be prophetic. The Jem'Hadar have a technological advantage over the Feder-
>ation (if we assume they're not bluffing); I'll bet that the crux of this arc
>is that the Dominion relies too heavily on this and thus underestimates the
>federation.
Quite pertinent. All things being equal, a technological edge CAN
prove decisive. But if that's ALL you rely on, you leave strategic
weaknesses in underlying economies, etc.
All the high tech in the world isn't going to help the Dominion
against the Feds if the Feds encourage subjegated races in the Gamma
Quadrant to give the Doms problems....Great Britain circa 1776 comes to
mind...
--
Roger Tang, gwan...@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director PC Theatre
The most unAmerican thing you can say is "He/she makes too much money."
Casey Miller
What I would like to see in my own series is a show during a war
where there are serveral campaigns, various ship designs, multiple races,
etc. A ship based series has the advantage of being able to seek out new
experiences while a station has to wait for things to arrive, though B5
obviously has no problem coming up with new things to keep the show
moving. I think B5 is almost perfect to being what I want in a sci-fi
series, though the wartime idea is something I would love to see. Of
course, with this series anything is possible.
C. Miller
--
Roger M. Wilcox
> [ ... ]
>curious about what kind of a sci-fi show people would love to make
>if they could.
1) NO FASTER-THAN-LIGHT-TRAVEL. This is one of the sacred cows of even the
hardest of hard SF. Everybody, but everybody, allows for it. An
interstellar setting that lacked FTL travel would open up possibilities which
most "exploratory" SF that makes it to TV or film has not yet dreamed of.
2) NO ZIMA.
3) Newtonian spacecraft. Babylon 5 was the first to do this, and I commend
them wholeheartedly for it. Space ships shouldn't always have to follow
their noses.
4) NO ZIMA.
5) Interactions with computers where we *don't* try to get a laugh out of
a "machine taking a main character too literally." When Ivanova's wake-up
computer started doing this with her, I groaned and said, "Oh no, it's like
whin the Enterprise's computer said 'Specify temperature'!"
6) NO ZIMA.
7) No, or very little, military presence. The _Alien_ movies handled this
quite well, although they eventually resorted to the old "evil gigantic
corporation out to take over the universe" motif that many people see as the
only alternative to a military space culture. And if we *do* have a military
in our future setting, for God's sake, let's not use the officer ranking
names from the Navy! Have it be "Colonel Picard" and "Lieutennant Colonel
Sinclair" and "Major Ivanova." Just because we call it a space SHIP doesn't
mean it floats on water.
8) NO ZIMA.
9) All the aliens, if there are any, should be TRULY alien. And, usually,
not scary. If the only differences between an alien race and humans are
social and cultural, then make the aliens into exotic humans instead. The
Horta and the Medusans from the old Star Trek series are about where I'd
start. And, no, I don't want to see aliens that have molecular acid for
blood, whatever molecular acid is.
10) NO ZIMA.
11) More sexual freedom. Take the current break-aways from Victorian mores
and extend them into the future. Make personal satisfaction and happiness
a goal within the reach of more people. Seriously ask the question "If all
these people of both sexes want to have more sex, what the hell is keeping
them apart?!", and if you can't come up with an immediately palatable answer,
don't *keep* them apart.
12) And, last but not least, NO ZIMA.
--
Roger M. Wilcox a.k.a. Jeff Boeing -- tra...@netcom.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 500 000 tons? Sheesh, no WONDER you're all alone in the night!
Get your weight down and the opposite sex won't stay OFF of you!
A Adams
: In article <2u7kj0$4...@opine.cs.umass.edu> jgr...@cs.umass.edu (Joshua Grass) writes:
: > [ ... ]
: >curious about what kind of a sci-fi show people would love to make
: >if they could.
[munch] - description of what he'd like to see in an SF show.
Can I suggest that anyone wanting a show like this try the nine
episodes of Star Cops. This was a near future SF show produced by
BBC in the late eighties. It had intelligent scripts. The FX were
OK. The space scenes were pretty good actually (all near orbit stuff)
including correct movement of ships. The only cheesy bits were the
attempts at zero gravity and the lack of 'light' gravity on the moon.
It didn't have aliens (apart from the little green man rumours in
the last epsiode). It did have soem good scripts and some good acting.
The only point it really falls down on from the list was the computer
acting as the straight man - it always assumed someone was talking
to it when they were alone and said something. ("You're a cheeky
sod, Box!"). Oh, and one final thing is it had no Zima, just a
pathological coffee machine :-).
--
TTFN, A^3 *************************E-mail*a...@scs.leeds.ac.uk********
************************************snail*Flat 18,26 Brudenell Road**
**"If you're not here to kick *******mail*Leeds,LS6 1BD,UK***********
**ass, get out." - jms ***************Tel*UK-0532 789237*************
Robert Whyte
>1) NO FASTER-THAN-LIGHT-TRAVEL.
>2) NO ZIMA.
>3) Newtonian spacecraft.
>4) NO ZIMA.
>5) Interactions with computers where we *don't* try to get a laugh out of
>a "machine taking a main character too literally."
>6) NO ZIMA.
>7) No, or very little, military presence.
>8) NO ZIMA.
>9) All the aliens, if there are any, should be TRULY alien.
>10) NO ZIMA.
>11) More sexual freedom.
>12) NO ZIMA.
13) There is no rule 13.
14) NO ZIMA.
We will now sing the Babylon 5 National Anthem.
B5, B5, B5, B5, B5, We luv ya, We luv ya, Amen.
/ O
/
/ ___
\
\
\ O
Robert "G'Nort" Whyte
"Furry and Dangerous, Dammit!!"
"Beep Beep. It must be Earth humour" - Londo