Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
Earl Evleth
near the station about the time of the shooting," means that the police may
be narrowing the field of investigation. If this is the guy, he is also
programming himself to get caught.
Earl
*******
Man Wounded in Another Va. Shooting
Fri Oct 11,10:45 AM ET
By HANK KURZ Jr., Associated Press Writer
WOODBRIDGE, Va. (AP) - A man was shot and seriously wounded at a gas station
Friday, and police searching for a sniper closed down a nearby interstate
after reports that a white van had been in the area at the time.
It wasn't immediately clear if the shooting near Fredericksburg was linked
to nine other attacks that have left seven people dead in the Washington
area, Virginia state police said.
On Wednesday night, the sniper fatally shot a man at a gas station in
Manassas, 30 miles north of Fredericksburg.
The man was shot at about 9:30 a.m. at an Exxon station just south of
Fredericksburg, state police spokeswoman Lucy Caldwell said. He was
seriously wounded, Gov. Mark Warner said.
A white Chevy Astro van with ladder racks on top was seen near the station
about the time of the shooting, she said. Police closed down parts of nearby
Interstate 95 and were stopping white vans there and on other roads in the
area.
A white van or box truck also was spotted near the scenes of two other
shootings linked to the sniper. A van was pulled over shortly after a fatal
shooting Wednesday night but the occupants had a reasonable explanation for
being in the area, Prince William County Police Chief Charlie Deane said.
There have been no known witnesses to the attacks; however, police have been
reviewing video surveillance tapes from the shooting scenes, all public
places.
Friday morning, Montgomery County, Md., Police Chief Charles Moose said a
special projects unit of the FBI (news - web sites) was working "with a
sense of urgency" on a graphic aid to be distributed to the public in the
search for the sniper.
He and FBI officials declined to describe the graphic, but said it would be
clear later Friday.
Authorities haven't said if tapes from Wednesday night's attack, at a gas
station in Manassas, held any clues.
A 53-year-old civil engineer traveling from his job in Virginia to his home
in Gaithersburg, Md., was killed after pumping gas just off Interstate 66.
Like the other victims, Dean Meyers was felled by a single shot from a
high-power rifle. Police said ballistic evidence linked Meyers' death to the
sniper.
"This is crazy. It's too close to home," Michelle Rhoades, 19, of Triangle
said Thursday night as she stopped at a gas station in Woodbridge, about 15
minutes from where Meyers was killed.
She said she didn't want to live in fear but admitted she had been scanning
the area around her for any place a sniper might hide.
Meyers' death in Prince William County broadened the scope of an
investigation that has frightened residents in suburbs surrounding the
nation's capital and has strained police in two states and the District of
Columbia.
The shootings, including one Monday that critically wounded a 13-year-old
boy outside his school in Bowie, Md., have led schools across the region to
cancel field trips and outdoor activities during the week.
Last weekend was free of attacks, but Moose said he isn't willing to bank on
another lull.
"We know that it's the weekend. There won't been any rush hour, there won't
be any school, but there will be events and certainly we're aware of that,"
he said.
Residents, meanwhile, have been modifying their shopping habits to avoid
putting themselves in danger.
Bebi Tasawar, the mother of three working in a glass-fronted 7-Eleven, said
she was afraid to come to work knowing the sniper had been within 10 miles
of her store. It didn't help, she said, that the parking lot was unlit and
that the store is adjacent to thick woods.
"When we throw the trash out, we're looking around. It's scary," she said.
"You don't know when you walk out the door what will happen next. He could
be watching us right now."
Just across the parking lot, Robert Evans was working security at a Sheetz
gas station and convenience store. The station normally only has security
guards on weekends, but he was brought in for an 8 p.m to 6 a.m. shift.
"I'm paying a lot more attention to the tree line," he said.
While pumping gas, Jerry Hughes continually shuffled around his car.
"I figure he's shooting at targets that are not moving, so if he wants to
keep shooting at gas stations, I'll keep moving until my gas is pumped," the
42-year-old Hughes said.
A toll-free hot line set up to accept tips was overwhelmed by calls
Thursday. Police were advising callers getting busy signals to keep calling.
Additional phone lines were being installed.
Still, police were deliberately vague about their evidence and leads.
"It's a difficult case but we are developing more information as the minutes
go by," Deane said Thursday.
Manassas is about 35 miles southwest of the Maryland suburbs where most of
the attacks happened. Meyers' shooting was the second in Virginia. A woman
was wounded by the sniper last Friday in Fredericksburg, 30 miles south of
Manassas.
Police in yellow slickers walked shoulder to shoulder Thursday through a
drizzling rain, looking for evidence near where Meyers was shot. Deane did
not say whether they had found anything, but said there had been no
communication from the killer.
At the site of Monday's shooting, police found a tarot death card with the
taunting words, "Dear policeman, I am God" near a bullet shell.
JIGSAW1695
From: Desmond Coughlan pasdespa...@zeouane.org
Date: 10/11/2002 11:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <slrnaqdslr.ms.p...@lievre.voute.net>
Le Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:02:46 +0200, Earl Evleth <evl...@wanadoo.fr> a écrit :
> The statement "A white Chevy Astro van with ladder racks on top was seen
> near the station about the time of the shooting," means that the police may
> be narrowing the field of investigation. If this is the guy, he is also
> programming himself to get caught.
Let's hope that it's sooner rather than later. However, as an on-topic
question ... where will this person be tried ? Maryland is deathie, but
D.C. is abolitionist. Did he kill someone in Delaware, also ? Will the
federal government bring a prosecution ? If so, is there a specific
charge of 'interstate flight to continue bumping people off', or something ?
--
Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1
===============================
Hmmmm.... good question. The first problem I have with it is the person asking
our original Dezi or his evil but smarter twin brother??
Usually the state that catchs him first (in this case it might be a federal
district) gets to keep him.
However, after all the rhetoric, the state with the most compelling evidence
will be the one that tries him.
The Feds probably could try him if they desired, but I imagine they will let
local authorities do it. In that case, FBI agents could be used as witnesses.
To the best of my knowledge there have been no reports of the shooter killing
anyone in Delaware. This dosent mean it didnt happen though. No one is talking
about how long this has been going on, though I am sure every state with a
similar killing is looking into it.
As far as the interstate thing, there is a federal statute on interstate flight
to avoid prosecution. To soon to tell if he will qualify for that one though.
Richard J
>
> The statement "A white Chevy Astro van with ladder racks on top was seen
> near the station about the time of the shooting," means that the police may
> be narrowing the field of investigation. If this is the guy, he is also
> programming himself to get caught.
>
> Earl
>
> *******
People like this usually do. The thrill for him isn't in the killing,
but in playing his games with the police and the public. Sooner or
later, he will be caught. Unfortunately more innocents will likely die
in the meanwhile.
Teflon
<snip>
Richard J
>
> Le Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:02:46 +0200, Earl Evleth <evl...@wanadoo.fr> a écrit :
>
> > near the station about the time of the shooting," means that the police may
> > be narrowing the field of investigation. If this is the guy, he is also
> > programming himself to get caught.
>
> question ... where will this person be tried ? Maryland is deathie, but
> D.C. is abolitionist. Did he kill someone in Delaware, also ? Will the
> federal government bring a prosecution ? If so, is there a specific
> charge of 'interstate flight to continue bumping people off', or something ?
He actually could be tried in all the states and for each murder as well
as for each attempted murder. There is a federal charge for crossing
interstate lines to avoid prosecution, which in and of itself enough to
bring the FBI in on the case.
My guess is that the state with the best case against him will try him
unless he confesses to all the crimes. If that happens, I feel he will
likely be tried in the state which catches him. Chances are he will
also be tried and sentenced in the other states if he is tried and given
life in an abolitionist state. That way, he could have a death penalty
hanging over him should he ever gain parole.
In Texas, there have been a few death row inmates released to the
Federal Government for Federal Death Penalty charges. It could also be
the case that whatever state arrest him, Maryland might extradite him
for a death penalty trial.
Teflon
>
> --
> Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
> desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
> http: // www . zeouane . org
JIGSAW1695
Date: 10/11/2002 1:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <3DA70B8E...@hotmail.com>
Teflon
===============================
Just because "a white Chevy Astro van with ladder racks on top was seen near
the station at the time of the shooting" does not mean it was involved in the
shooting.
True, it is a lead that should be followed, but beware of the Ideas of March,
False Leads, Unworthy Presumptions and betting on any game involving humans.
JIGSAW1695
Date: 10/11/2002 2:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <slrnaqe5o9.ms.p...@lievre.voute.net>
Le Fri, 11 Oct 2002 12:41:12 -0500, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a écrit :
{ snip }
>> Let's hope that it's sooner rather than later. However, as an on-topic
>> question ... where will this person be tried ? Maryland is deathie, but
>> D.C. is abolitionist. Did he kill someone in Delaware, also ? Will the
>> federal government bring a prosecution ? If so, is there a specific
>> charge of 'interstate flight to continue bumping people off', or something ?
{ snip }
> In Texas, there have been a few death row inmates released to the
> Federal Government for Federal Death Penalty charges. It could also be
> the case that whatever state arrest him, Maryland might extradite him
> for a death penalty trial.
Let us hope that he is tried in abolitionist Washington D.C., then.
Let us pray that he stops killing, and takes a flight to Europe. That
way, he will only be extradited back to the United States, once assurances
are given that he will not be judicially murdered.
Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1
===============================
Suppose we just let you keep him and and then you can let him roam free
throughout Europe.
John Rennie
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message
news:slrnaqe1ur.ms.p...@lievre.voute.net...
> Le 11 Oct 2002 17:07:34 GMT, JIGSAW1695 <jigsa...@aol.com> a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> >> Let's hope that it's sooner rather than later. However, as an on-topic
> >> question ... where will this person be tried ? Maryland is deathie,
but
> >> D.C. is abolitionist. Did he kill someone in Delaware, also ? Will
the
> >> federal government bring a prosecution ? If so, is there a specific
> >> charge of 'interstate flight to continue bumping people off', or
something ?
>
>
> > To the best of my knowledge there have been no reports of the shooter
> > killing anyone in Delaware.
>
>
> > This dosent mean it didnt happen though. No one is talking about how
long
> > this has been going on, though I am sure every state with a similar
killing
> > is looking into it.
>
> almost anyone can relate to the fear felt by the residents of that area.
A
> drug-related killing, or a gangland killing, or a killing for money, or
> through industrial 'espionage', doesn't really touch most people, as we
> don't live or mix in those circles.
>
> However, this individual appears to be picking his victims at random. No
> one is safe. May they catch him soon.
>
> { snip }
>
> --
> Desmond Coughlan
Not quite at random perhaps. Aren't blacks being targeted?
John Rennie
> Le Fri, 11 Oct 2002 20:08:17 +0100, John Rennie <j.re...@ntlworld.com>
a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> >> The thing that I personally find the 'scariest' about this madman, is
that
> >> almost anyone can relate to the fear felt by the residents of that
area.
> > A
> >> drug-related killing, or a gangland killing, or a killing for money, or
> >> through industrial 'espionage', doesn't really touch most people, as we
> >> don't live or mix in those circles.
> >>
> >> However, this individual appears to be picking his victims at random.
No
> >> one is safe. May they catch him soon.
>
>
victims
> came from a number of ethnic groups ...
>
> --
> Desmond Coughlan
That is a one relief in a ghastly situation.
JIGSAW1695
From: Desmond Coughlan pasdespa...@zeouane.org
Message-id: <slrnaqearl.1iv.p...@lievre.voute.net>
Le Fri, 11 Oct 2002 20:38:13 +0100, John Rennie <j.re...@ntlworld.com> a
écrit :
{ snip }
>> > Not quite at random perhaps. Aren't blacks being targeted?
>> The reports that I saw, seemed to rule out a racialist link, as the
> victims
>> came from a number of ethnic groups ...
> That is a one relief in a ghastly situation.
I could be wrong (no, really, it _is_ possible ...).
--
Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1
===============================
Time to take a stand and let your feelings be known to all. Should this guy get
the DP if and when he is caught alive???
Jigsaw
John Rennie
"JIGSAW1695" <jigsa...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021011160605...@mb-fu.aol.com...
Personally I think Charlton Heston and the NRA crew should go in the dock
with him and receive the same penalty.
JIGSAW1695
Date: 10/11/2002 4:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <_lGp9.1056$1X2.154292@newsfep2-gui>
==============================
It would be pretty crowded with all the people in it. The majority of Americans
favor the second amendment and the right for society to own guns.
But then again you are a Brit which explains a lot. : )
JIGSAW1695
From: Desmond Coughlan pasdespa...@zeouane.org
Message-id: <slrnaqeclt.1iv.p...@lievre.voute.net>
Le Fri, 11 Oct 2002 21:17:51 +0100, John Rennie <j.re...@ntlworld.com> a
écrit :
{ snip }
>> Time to take a stand and let your feelings be known to all. Should this
> guy get
>> the DP if and when he is caught alive???
> Personally I think Charlton Heston and the NRA crew should go in the dock
> with him and receive the same penalty.
*standing ovation*
--
Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4
===============================
<< S I G H > >
John Rennie
That's what brain washing does for people.
In your case, of course, you haven't got a brain to wash.
>
> But then again you are a Brit which explains a lot. : )
*FART*
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: 11 Oct 2002 20:23:17 GMT
>
>Le Fri, 11 Oct 2002 21:17:51 +0100, John Rennie <j.re...@ntlworld.com> a
>écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> Time to take a stand and let your feelings be known to all. Should this
>> guy get
>>> the DP if and when he is caught alive???
>
>> Personally I think Charlton Heston and the NRA crew should go in the dock
>> with him and receive the same penalty.
>
>*standing ovation*
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>Date: 11 Oct 2002 20:23:17 GMT
>Organization: None
>Lines: 17
>Message-ID: <slrnaqeclt.1iv.p...@lievre.voute.net>
>References: <slrnaqearl.1iv.p...@lievre.voute.net>
><20021011160605...@mb-fu.aol.com>
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>
The Dr. Dolly Coughlan archive exists because Desmond Coughlan lacks conviction
in his words. He won't allow his posts to be archived in Google. Please feel
free to use it to your advantage.
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: 11 Oct 2002 18:25:05 GMT
>
>Le Fri, 11 Oct 2002 12:41:12 -0500, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a écrit :
>
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> Let's hope that it's sooner rather than later. However, as an on-topic
>>> question ... where will this person be tried ? Maryland is deathie, but
>>> D.C. is abolitionist. Did he kill someone in Delaware, also ? Will the
>>> federal government bring a prosecution ? If so, is there a specific
>>> charge of 'interstate flight to continue bumping people off', or something
>?
>
>{ snip }
>
>> In Texas, there have been a few death row inmates released to the
>> Federal Government for Federal Death Penalty charges. It could also be
>> the case that whatever state arrest him, Maryland might extradite him
>> for a death penalty trial.
>
>Let us hope that he is tried in abolitionist Washington D.C., then.
>
>Let us pray that he stops killing, and takes a flight to Europe. That
>way, he will only be extradited back to the United States, once assurances
>are given that he will not be judicially murdered.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!e117.dhcp212-198-68.noos.FR!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>Date: 11 Oct 2002 18:25:05 GMT
>Organization: None
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: 11 Oct 2002 20:22:56 GMT
>
>Le 11 Oct 2002 20:06:05 GMT, JIGSAW1695 <jigsa...@aol.com> a écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> I could be wrong (no, really, it _is_ possible ...).
>
>> Time to take a stand and let your feelings be known to all. Should
>> this guy get the DP if and when he is caught alive???
>
>You're taking the piss, Jigsaw ...
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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lin.de!uni-berlin.de!e117.dhcp212-198-68.noos.FR!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>Date: 11 Oct 2002 20:22:56 GMT
>Organization: None
>Lines: 15
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: 11 Oct 2002 17:20:20 GMT
>
>Le 11 Oct 2002 17:07:34 GMT, JIGSAW1695 <jigsa...@aol.com> a écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> Let's hope that it's sooner rather than later. However, as an on-topic
>>> question ... where will this person be tried ? Maryland is deathie, but
>>> D.C. is abolitionist. Did he kill someone in Delaware, also ? Will the
>>> federal government bring a prosecution ? If so, is there a specific
>>> charge of 'interstate flight to continue bumping people off', or something
>?
>
>{ snip }
>
>> To the best of my knowledge there have been no reports of the shooter
>> killing anyone in Delaware.
>
>Virginia. Sorry, I meant Virginia.
>
>> This dosent mean it didnt happen though. No one is talking about how long
>> this has been going on, though I am sure every state with a similar killing
>
>> is looking into it.
>
>The thing that I personally find the 'scariest' about this madman, is that
>almost anyone can relate to the fear felt by the residents of that area. A
>drug-related killing, or a gangland killing, or a killing for money, or
>through industrial 'espionage', doesn't really touch most people, as we
>don't live or mix in those circles.
>
>However, this individual appears to be picking his victims at random. No
>one is safe. May they catch him soon.
>
>{ snip }
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>Date: 11 Oct 2002 17:20:20 GMT
>Organization: None
>Lines: 36
>Message-ID: <slrnaqe1ur.ms.p...@lievre.voute.net>
>References: <slrnaqdslr.ms.p...@lievre.voute.net>
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: 11 Oct 2002 19:52:13 GMT
>
>Le Fri, 11 Oct 2002 20:38:13 +0100, John Rennie <j.re...@ntlworld.com> a
>écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> > Not quite at random perhaps. Aren't blacks being targeted?
>
>>> The reports that I saw, seemed to rule out a racialist link, as the
>> victims
>>> came from a number of ethnic groups ...
>
>> That is a one relief in a ghastly situation.
>
>I could be wrong (no, really, it _is_ possible ...).
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
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.noos.FR!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>Date: 11 Oct 2002 19:52:13 GMT
>Organization: None
>Lines: 18
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: 11 Oct 2002 19:11:17 GMT
>
>Le Fri, 11 Oct 2002 20:08:17 +0100, John Rennie <j.re...@ntlworld.com> a
>écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> The thing that I personally find the 'scariest' about this madman, is that
>>> almost anyone can relate to the fear felt by the residents of that area.
>> A
>>> drug-related killing, or a gangland killing, or a killing for money, or
>>> through industrial 'espionage', doesn't really touch most people, as we
>>> don't live or mix in those circles.
>>>
>>> However, this individual appears to be picking his victims at random. No
>>> one is safe. May they catch him soon.
>
>> Not quite at random perhaps. Aren't blacks being targeted?
>
>The reports that I saw, seemed to rule out a racialist link, as the victims
>came from a number of ethnic groups ...
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>Date: 11 Oct 2002 19:11:17 GMT
>Organization: None
>Lines: 23
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: 11 Oct 2002 15:50:12 GMT
>
>Le Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:02:46 +0200, Earl Evleth <evl...@wanadoo.fr> a écrit
>:
>
>> The statement "A white Chevy Astro van with ladder racks on top was seen
>> near the station about the time of the shooting," means that the police may
>> be narrowing the field of investigation. If this is the guy, he is also
>> programming himself to get caught.
>
>Let's hope that it's sooner rather than later. However, as an on-topic
>question ... where will this person be tried ? Maryland is deathie, but
>D.C. is abolitionist. Did he kill someone in Delaware, also ? Will the
>federal government bring a prosecution ? If so, is there a specific
>charge of 'interstate flight to continue bumping people off', or something ?
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>Date: 11 Oct 2002 15:50:12 GMT
>Organization: None
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Richard J
Not necessarily. There have been blacks, Hispanics, and Caucasians
shot. I don't think there is a racial pattern to the shooting as much
as an opportunity pattern. This guy is coming off the Interstate, or
off the circle around DC and taking the first convenient target he sees
where he can get off a shot and make his escape.
Teflon
Richard J
>
> Le Fri, 11 Oct 2002 12:41:12 -0500, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> >> question ... where will this person be tried ? Maryland is deathie, but
> >> D.C. is abolitionist. Did he kill someone in Delaware, also ? Will the
> >> federal government bring a prosecution ? If so, is there a specific
> >> charge of 'interstate flight to continue bumping people off', or something ?
>
>
> > In Texas, there have been a few death row inmates released to the
> > Federal Government for Federal Death Penalty charges. It could also be
> > the case that whatever state arrest him, Maryland might extradite him
> > for a death penalty trial.
>
>
> Let us pray that he stops killing, and takes a flight to Europe. That
> way, he will only be extradited back to the United States, once assurances
> are given that he will not be judicially murdered.
>
> Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
> desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
> http: // www . zeouane . org
Judicial murder is an impossibility Desmond. As far as I'm concerned,
we could ship all our capital murderers to Europe and release them
there. We wouldn't have to worry about them or feed them.
Teflon
JIGSAW1695
From: "John Rennie" j.re...@ntlworld.com
Message-id: <oKJp9.2105$w1.2...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>
*FART*
===============================
*BURP*!!
Donna Evleth
Dans l'article <PkFp9.916$1X2.144312@newsfep2-gui>, "John Rennie"
<j.re...@ntlworld.com> a écrit :
>
No. It really does seem to be random. The papers here (Herald Tribune, Le
Parisien) have told us a little about some of the victims. James Martin,
Sonny Buchanan and Lori Lewis-Rivera are white, judging from their photos
published in the Parisien. Premkumar Walekar was from India. Paschal
Charlot, as well as the kid who was wounded outside the school, are black.
Sarah Ramos was hispanic, originally from El Salvador. The others I don't
know about, but the ones I do know about seem to be a real mixed bag.
Donna Evleth
>
>
JIGSAW1695
From: "Donna Evleth" dev...@noos.fr
Date: 10/12/2002 5:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <3da7ce37$0$6223$79c1...@nan-newsreader-03.noos.net>
Donna Evleth
===============================
the goal of a terrorist is to terrorize. They are close to accomplishing their
mission.
If they are from the mid-east, which is now a distinct possibility (see my
earlier post: More on the Sniper) they may well be, the cell was a sleeper cell
that has been activated.
Jigsaw
A Planet Visitor
> >> question ... where will this person be tried ? Maryland is deathie, but
> >> D.C. is abolitionist. Did he kill someone in Delaware, also ? Will the
> >> federal government bring a prosecution ? If so, is there a specific
> >> charge of 'interstate flight to continue bumping people off', or something ?
>
>
> > In Texas, there have been a few death row inmates released to the
> > Federal Government for Federal Death Penalty charges. It could also be
> > the case that whatever state arrest him, Maryland might extradite him
> > for a death penalty trial.
>
>
> Let us pray that he stops killing, and takes a flight to Europe. That
> way, he will only be extradited back to the United States, once assurances
> are given that he will not be judicially murdered.
>
Let France support him. Nonetheless... there is no such thing
as 'judicially murdered.' And you know it... thus, it's just emotional
mumbo-jumbo.
PV
> --
> Desmond Coughlan |THE BITCH DROPPED THE BIKE ON MY TOE
> |SO I DUMPED HER SORRY ASS
> |AND MY 5 KIDS AS WELL
Rev. Don Kool
Desi Coughlan wrote:
> John Rennie <j.re...@ntlworld.com> wrote :
>
> { snip }
>
>
>>>The thing that I personally find the 'scariest' about this madman, is that
>>>almost anyone can relate to the fear felt by the residents of that area.
>>
>>A
>>
>>>drug-related killing, or a gangland killing, or a killing for money, or
>>>through industrial 'espionage', doesn't really touch most people, as we
>>>don't live or mix in those circles.
>>>
>>>However, this individual appears to be picking his victims at random. No
>>>one is safe. May they catch him soon.
>>
>
>>Not quite at random perhaps. Aren't blacks being targeted?
>
>
> The reports that I saw, seemed to rule out a racialist link, as the victims
> came from a number of ethnic groups ...
"racialist"... LOL!!! Poor, illiterate Desi. :-(
Yours in Christ,
Don
--
*************************** You a bounty hunter?
* Rev. Don McDonald, SCSA * Man's gotta earn a living.
* Baltimore, MD * Dying ain't much of a living, boy.
*************************** "Outlaw Josey Wales"
Rev. Don Kool
Desi Coughlan wrote:
> Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> wrote :
>
> { snip }
>
>
>>>Let's hope that it's sooner rather than later. However, as an on-topic
>>>question ... where will this person be tried ? Maryland is deathie, but
>>>D.C. is abolitionist. Did he kill someone in Delaware, also ? Will the
>>>federal government bring a prosecution ? If so, is there a specific
>>>charge of 'interstate flight to continue bumping people off', or something ?
>>
>
> { snip }
>
>
>>In Texas, there have been a few death row inmates released to the
>>Federal Government for Federal Death Penalty charges. It could also be
>>the case that whatever state arrest him, Maryland might extradite him
>>for a death penalty trial.
>
>
> Let us hope that he is tried in abolitionist Washington D.C., then.
>
> Let us pray that he stops killing, and takes a flight to Europe.
and starts knocking off racist eurotrash.
Richard J
> >>
> >> Let us pray that he stops killing, and takes a flight to Europe. That
> >> way, he will only be extradited back to the United States, once assurances
> >> are given that he will not be judicially murdered.
>
> > we could ship all our capital murderers to Europe and release them
> > there. We wouldn't have to worry about them or feed them.
>
>
> _Non sequitur_, Richard. No one is suggesting release for this animal.
> I for one am just examining options which would allow society to impose a
> just, humane sentence (i.e. a non-capital one).
>
> --
> Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
> desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
> http: // www . zeouane . org
A just sentence to me is what the court determines is just. If that is
that a murderer must forfeit his own life because he took an innocent
one that is just.
Teflon
JIGSAW1695
From: Richard J ric...@hotmail.com
Date: 10/12/2002 5:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <3DA8909C...@hotmail.com>
Teflon
===============================
That sounds very reasonable to me. I dont think anyone can really argue with
the fairness of that.
Jigsaw
Richard J
>
> Le 12 Oct 2002 22:06:08 GMT, JIGSAW1695 <jigsa...@aol.com> a écrit :
>
> >> A just sentence to me is what the court determines is just. If that is
> >> that a murderer must forfeit his own life because he took an innocent
> >> one that is just.
>
> > the fairness of that.
>
> in your opinion, Jigsaw ?
>
> --
> Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
> desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
> http: // www . zeouane . org
A life for a life is just. Life imprisonment for staling a pizza isn't
just, that is just plain silly, Desmond. Theft under $50 would be a
misdimeanor and not a felony prosecutable offense. Now if the guy was
paroled from a life sentence and his theft of a pizza violated the terms
of his parole, thus causing him to serve out the remainder of his life
in prison, too bad. In that instance, he knew the rules and didn't
follow them.
Oh........ that's what gets most criminals in jail to begin with, isn't
it? They know the law, but do not care to obey it.
Teflon
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: 12 Oct 2002 20:56:59 GMT
>
>Le Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:14:49 -0400, Rush Wickes <ru...@rush-w.com> a écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> > To the best of my knowledge there have been no reports of the shooter
>>> > killing anyone in Delaware.
>
>>> Virginia. Sorry, I meant Virginia.
>
>> Stepping in from lurk mode here.
>
>{ snip }
>
>Thank you for the details, Rush. You really should come out of 'turd ...
>er, I mean ... lurk mode' more often.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>Date: 12 Oct 2002 20:56:59 GMT
>Organization: None
>Lines: 20
>Message-ID: <slrnaqh314.2rj.p...@lievre.voute.net>
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: 12 Oct 2002 14:42:03 GMT
>
>Le 12 Oct 2002 07:30:05 GMT, JIGSAW1695 <jigsa...@aol.com> a écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>> the goal of a terrorist is to terrorize. They are close to accomplishing
>their
>> mission.
>>
>> If they are from the mid-east, which is now a distinct possibility (see my
>> earlier post: More on the Sniper) they may well be, the cell was a sleeper
>cell
>> that has been activated.
>
>I would also speculate that the 'goal' of a serial killer such as this, is
>also to 'terrorise' the populace, as no one knows where he is going to
>strike next. That, he has achieved in spectacular fashion.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>Date: 12 Oct 2002 14:42:03 GMT
>Organization: None
>Lines: 19
>Message-ID: <slrnaqgd22.13u.p...@lievre.voute.net>
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: 12 Oct 2002 22:09:41 GMT
>
>Le 12 Oct 2002 22:06:08 GMT, JIGSAW1695 <jigsa...@aol.com> a écrit :
>
>>> A just sentence to me is what the court determines is just. If that is
>>> that a murderer must forfeit his own life because he took an innocent
>>> one that is just.
>
>> That sounds very reasonable to me. I dont think anyone can really argue
>with
>> the fairness of that.
>
>Really ? So the bloke that got life for stealing a pizza ... that's 'just'
>in your opinion, Jigsaw ?
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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e!e117.dhcp212-198-68.noos.FR!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>Date: 12 Oct 2002 22:09:41 GMT
>Organization: None
>Lines: 16
>Message-ID: <slrnaqh79c.3df.p...@lievre.voute.net>
>References: <3DA8909C...@hotmail.com>
><20021012180608...@mb-fu.aol.com>
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: 12 Oct 2002 19:27:19 GMT
>
>Le Fri, 11 Oct 2002 22:30:43 -0500, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a écrit :
>
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> Let us hope that he is tried in abolitionist Washington D.C., then.
>>>
>>> Let us pray that he stops killing, and takes a flight to Europe. That
>>> way, he will only be extradited back to the United States, once assurances
>>> are given that he will not be judicially murdered.
>
>> Judicial murder is an impossibility Desmond. As far as I'm concerned,
>> we could ship all our capital murderers to Europe and release them
>> there. We wouldn't have to worry about them or feed them.
>
><sigh>
>
>_Non sequitur_, Richard. No one is suggesting release for this animal.
>I for one am just examining options which would allow society to impose a
>just, humane sentence (i.e. a non-capital one).
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>Date: 12 Oct 2002 19:27:19 GMT
>Organization: None
>Lines: 24
>Message-ID: <slrnaqgtov.2mp.p...@lievre.voute.net>
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JIGSAW1695
From: Desmond Coughlan pasdespa...@zeouane.org
Message-id: <slrnaqh79c.3df.p...@lievre.voute.net>
Le 12 Oct 2002 22:06:08 GMT, JIGSAW1695 <jigsa...@aol.com> a écrit :
>> A just sentence to me is what the court determines is just. If that is
>> that a murderer must forfeit his own life because he took an innocent
>> one that is just.
> That sounds very reasonable to me. I dont think anyone can really argue with
> the fairness of that.
Really ? So the bloke that got life for stealing a pizza ... that's 'just'
in your opinion, Jigsaw ?
--
Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1
===============================
which bloke is that???
JIGSAW1695
From: Desmond Coughlan pasdespa...@zeouane.org
Message-id: <slrnaqiju1.89s.p...@lievre.voute.net>
Le Sat, 12 Oct 2002 19:07:34 -0500, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a écrit :
>> >> A just sentence to me is what the court determines is just. If that is
>> >> that a murderer must forfeit his own life because he took an innocent
>> >> one that is just.
{ snip }
>> Really ? So the bloke that got life for stealing a pizza ... that's 'just'
>> in your opinion, Jigsaw ?
> A life for a life is just. Life imprisonment for staling a pizza isn't
> just, that is just plain silly, Desmond.
I'd agree, Richard, but you stated above, 'A just sentence to me is what the
court determines is just'. Now, if a court determines that life in
gaol is 'just', for the theft of a pizza ... would you consider that 'just' ?
I am of course referring to the 'three-strikes-and-you're-out' law, which
resulted in a man being sent to prison for 25 years to life, for the theft
of a pizza.
That sentence was passed down by a court. You state that sentences passed
down by courts, are 'just'. Do you consider that sentence 'just' ?
If you do, then I suspect that you have a major problem with perspective.
If you don't, then I believe that we have the basis for a discussion, and
you are one step closer to seeing why many people consider a sentence of
death to be 'unjust', irrespective of the gravity of the offence of which
the condemned has been found guilty.
{ snip }
--
Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1
===============================
One of the questions that demand to be answered was whether or not the
arrestee was on parole. Was he sentenced for violation of parole?
We will wait for your reply.
JIGSAW1695
From: Desmond Coughlan pasdespa...@zeouane.org
Message-id: <slrnaqik1a.89s.p...@lievre.voute.net>
Le 13 Oct 2002 03:09:27 GMT, JIGSAW1695 <jigsa...@aol.com> a écrit :
{ snip }
>> Really ? So the bloke that got life for stealing a pizza ... that's 'just'
>> in your opinion, Jigsaw ?
> which bloke is that???
Jerry Dewayne. He stole a slice of pepperoni pizza, and was sent down for
'25-to-life' in 1995 by a court in Los Angeles.
url:http://www.facts1.com/general/news.htm
--
Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1
===============================
Conveniently, it fails to state whether he was on parole or probation at the
time. This failure makes the argument against his incarceration worthless. Nice
try though.
Jigsaw
Earl Evleth
Coughlan à pasdespa...@zeouane.org a écrit le 13/10/02 13:23 :
> Le 13 Oct 2002 11:12:12 GMT, JIGSAW1695 <jigsa...@aol.com> a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
>>> Jerry Dewayne. He stole a slice of pepperoni pizza, and was sent down for
>>> '25-to-life' in 1995 by a court in Los Angeles.
>>>
>>> url:http://www.facts1.com/general/news.htm
>
>> Conveniently, it fails to state whether he was on parole or probation
>> at the time. This failure makes the argument against his incarceration
>> worthless. Nice try though.
Actually I did a Google on his name and got no information that
he was on parole or probation. He was tried however, convicted
and the sentence was reduced.
> 'Conveniently' ? Try not to let your prejudices show, Jigsaw.
Could it be a Jigsaw dodge to discuss the essentials?
Jigsaw could have looked up cases on the web and decide what
the overall impact of the law was, or whether in general the
sentences were just, not just the unjust one of Jerry Dewayne Williams.
There have been other minor theft sentences too.
There is a pro-three strike web page.
Apparently the "law" is being challenged in the Supreme Court,
this site says
"the United States Supreme Court will be hearing a Three Strikes related
case this November 5, 2002 with a ruling expected by May or June of 2003."`
This home page has some misleading statements, seems to say that
the drop in the California crime rate is associated with the law. I
don`t think statistical support could be found to claim this.
This site also has a page
http://www.threestrikes.org/lbart4_pg1.html
which lists, for Long Beach, a number of criminal sentenced under the
3-strikes law
For instance
Barger, Mark 24 Assault on police officer
Wilson, David 41 Assault on a police officer
Torres, Padilla 31 Assault with a deadly weapon
Brock, Aaron 34 Assault with a deadly weapon
Clayton, Curtis 34 Assault with a deadly weapon
Bryant, Wayne 47 Assault with a deadly weapon
Dominici, Joseph 34 Assault with a deadly weapon
Duron, Guadalupe 46 Assault with a deadly weapon
Burroughs, Marichal 31 Assault with a deadly weapon
Mendenhall, Troy 34 Assault with a deadly weapon
Jones, James 30 Assault with a deadly weapon
etc, which are not exactly pizza thefts. The site lists their priors
A number of others were sent for drug possession which I
tend to consider a non-crime but society does not. But
I am not for sending people to prison for 25 years for this
kind of "crime".
But assault, possession of a firearm etc are serious stuff
But a number were also sent up a long time for petty theft
Nagle, James 37 Petty theft with a prior theft
Saunders, Mike 29 Petty theft with a prior theft
Stevens, Philbert 37 Petty theft with a prior theft
Williams, Norman 37 Petty theft with a prior theft
Bradley, William 35 Petty theft with a prior theft
Bernoudy, Ricky 50 Petty theft with a prior theft
Catrieer, Mary 50 Petty theft with a prior theft
Collins, Alonzo 38 Petty theft with a prior theft
Perryman, Donnie 47 Petty theft with a prior theft
Payton, George 53 Petty theft with a prior theft
Pires, Joseph 45 Petty theft with a prior theft
Stadtlander, William 42 Petty theft with a prior theft
Popielski, Paul 53 Petty theft with a prior theft
Bryant, Terry 41 Petty theft with a prior theft
Compian, Christopher 40 Petty theft with a prior theft
Jones, Nataniel 54 Petty theft with a prior theft
Wilson, Kevin 39 Petty theft with a prior theft
etc.
This law was original written for criminals who had committed
crimes of violence and committed them again. It derived from
the Polly Klasse murder. It was designed to keep potential
murderers off the streets who had a number of priors which
showed them to be a danger. This did not include petty theft
people.
So the point is, the reasonableness of the 3 strikes law.
It became controversial in California because of judicial
excesses, such that even Polly Klasse's father said the
law should be refashioned.
And for God`s sake, Jiggy don`t ask for details on the names
I listed above, I tried a couple on Google and got nothing
but the document I got the name originally from.
Now, Jiggy, discuss the issues.
Earl
Richard J
>
> Le Sat, 12 Oct 2002 19:07:34 -0500, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a écrit :
>
> >> >> A just sentence to me is what the court determines is just. If that is
> >> >> that a murderer must forfeit his own life because he took an innocent
> >> >> one that is just.
>
>
> >> Really ? So the bloke that got life for stealing a pizza ... that's 'just'
> >> in your opinion, Jigsaw ?
>
> > just, that is just plain silly, Desmond.
>
> court determines is just'. Now, if a court determines that life in
> gaol is 'just', for the theft of a pizza ... would you consider that 'just' ?
>
> I am of course referring to the 'three-strikes-and-you're-out' law, which
> resulted in a man being sent to prison for 25 years to life, for the theft
> of a pizza.
>
> That sentence was passed down by a court. You state that sentences passed
> down by courts, are 'just'. Do you consider that sentence 'just' ?
>
> If you do, then I suspect that you have a major problem with perspective.
> If you don't, then I believe that we have the basis for a discussion, and
> you are one step closer to seeing why many people consider a sentence of
> death to be 'unjust', irrespective of the gravity of the offence of which
> the condemned has been found guilty.
>
> { snip }
>
> Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
> desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
> http: // www . zeouane . org
I can actually see both sides of the argument, Desmond. Getting a life
sentence for stealing a pizza seems to be grossly unfair. On the other
hand, being a habitual criminal isn't cool either.
Teflon
Richard J
> >> resulted in a man being sent to prison for 25 years to life, for the theft
> >> of a pizza.
>
> > arrestee was on parole. Was he sentenced for violation of parole?
> >
> > We will wait for your reply
>
> surname in my previous follow-up) was not on parole. He had prior
> convictions for robbery, attempted robbery, car theft, and possession of
> drugs.
>
> So in other words, at no point had he killed, now or in the past. A
> petty thief. Yet he ends up in gaol for life. Do you consider this
> just ?
>
> --
> Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
> desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
> http: // www . zeouane . org
Looks to me like he didn't get three strikes and was out. If you are
correct, he'd already had four strikes prior to the incident you
mentioned. While I agree that life is severe for the crime of stealing
a pizza, this guy could have already been tried as a habitual criminal
after the third felony in Texas. It appears to me he was given more
than sufficient chance to turn his life around.
Teflon
JIGSAW1695
From: Desmond Coughlan pasdespa...@zeouane.org
Message-id: <slrnaqildj.8ed.p...@lievre.voute.net>
Le 13 Oct 2002 11:08:27 GMT, JIGSAW1695 <jigsa...@aol.com> a écrit :
{ snip }
>> I am of course referring to the 'three-strikes-and-you're-out' law, which
>> resulted in a man being sent to prison for 25 years to life, for the theft
>> of a pizza.
> One of the questions that demand to be answered was whether or not the
> arrestee was on parole. Was he sentenced for violation of parole?
>
> We will wait for your reply
As far as I can ascertain, no, Jerry Dewayne Williams (I missed out his
surname in my previous follow-up) was not on parole. He had prior
convictions for robbery, attempted robbery, car theft, and possession of
drugs.
So in other words, at no point had he killed, now or in the past. A
petty thief. Yet he ends up in gaol for life. Do you consider this
just ?
--
Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1
===============================
Under the circumstances of his past criminal history.....Yes.
JIGSAW1695
From: Desmond Coughlan pasdespa...@zeouane.org
Message-id: <slrnaqilsm.8ed.p...@lievre.voute.net>
Le 13 Oct 2002 11:12:12 GMT, JIGSAW1695 <jigsa...@aol.com> a écrit :
{ snip }
>> Jerry Dewayne. He stole a slice of pepperoni pizza, and was sent down for
>> '25-to-life' in 1995 by a court in Los Angeles.
>>
>> url:http://www.facts1.com/general/news.htm
> Conveniently, it fails to state whether he was on parole or probation
> at the time. This failure makes the argument against his incarceration
> worthless. Nice try though.
'Conveniently' ? Try not to let your prejudices show, Jigsaw.
Would you consider a life sentence 'just', if he were on parole for a crime
which at the time of his original sentencing, did not qualify for a life
sentence ?
Let me make it clearer ...
Case 1. John Doe commits murder, and gets sentenced to 25 years. After 15
years, he gets parole, and a month later, steals a pizza. The
system then says, 'Right, you can't be trusted to behave yourself,
back inside you go.'
Case 2. Jim Doe burgles ten houses, gets sentenced to 5 years. After 2
years, he gets parole, and a month later, steals a pizza. The
system then says, 'Right, you can't be trusted to behave yourself,
back inside you go.'
Which of those do you consider 'just', Jigsaw ? Both of them ? Neither of
them ?
===============================
They knew what the rules were when they took a supervised release
(parole/probation). If the didnt want to be under control they had the option
of not applying for parole. Many criminals have taken this option.
Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1
Rev. Don Kool
Desi Coughlan wrote:
> JIGSAW1695 <jigsa...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>A just sentence to me is what the court determines is just. If that is
>>>that a murderer must forfeit his own life because he took an innocent
>>>one that is just.
>>
>
>>That sounds very reasonable to me. I dont think anyone can really argue with
>>the fairness of that.
>
>
> Really ? So the bloke that got life for stealing a pizza ... that's 'just'
> in your opinion, Jigsaw ?
Actually it apocryphal, Desi.
Happy to have cleared things up for you,
Don
John Rennie
> Le Fri, 11 Oct 2002 22:30:43 -0500, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a
écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> >> Let us hope that he is tried in abolitionist Washington D.C., then.
> >>
> >> Let us pray that he stops killing, and takes a flight to Europe. That
> >> way, he will only be extradited back to the United States, once
assurances
> >> are given that he will not be judicially murdered.
>
> > we could ship all our capital murderers to Europe and release them
> > there. We wouldn't have to worry about them or feed them.
>
>
> _Non sequitur_, Richard. No one is suggesting release for this animal.
> I for one am just examining options which would allow society to impose a
> just, humane sentence (i.e. a non-capital one).
>
> --
> Desmond Coughlan
I think we, the abolitionists that is, should drop all pretence that LWOP is
a humane sentence. It isn't and that is not the purpose of those pragmatic
abolitionists who wish to substitute it for the death penalty.
Richard J
>
> Le Sun, 13 Oct 2002 09:08:25 -0500, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> >> So in other words, at no point had he killed, now or in the past. A
> >> petty thief. Yet he ends up in gaol for life. Do you consider this
> >> just ?
>
> > correct, he'd already had four strikes prior to the incident you
> > mentioned.
>
> for robbery, and had the drugs on him at the time of his arrest.
>
> > While I agree that life is severe for the crime of stealing
> > a pizza, this guy could have already been tried as a habitual criminal
> > after the third felony in Texas. It appears to me he was given more
> > than sufficient chance to turn his life around.
>
> mean, 'four cheeses', I can understand, but ... pepperoni ?
>
> --
> Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
> desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
> http: // www . zeouane . org
It might well be he already had a rather severe sentence and was on
probation for prior arrests as well. He's a career criminal. What can
I say?
Teflon
Richard J
>
> Le Sun, 13 Oct 2002 09:04:22 -0500, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> >> If you do, then I suspect that you have a major problem with perspective.
> >> If you don't, then I believe that we have the basis for a discussion, and
> >> you are one step closer to seeing why many people consider a sentence of
> >> death to be 'unjust', irrespective of the gravity of the offence of which
> >> the condemned has been found guilty.
>
> > sentence for stealing a pizza seems to be grossly unfair. On the other
> > hand, being a habitual criminal isn't cool either.
>
>
> --
> Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
> desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
> http: // www . zeouane . org
The first or second time, perhaps. It's sort of like "accidental
pregnancy". I can understand how a woman might get accidentally
pregnant one or perhaps even two times, even in today's world. The
third, fourth, or fifth times, cannot be a mistake but either sheer
ignorance or not giving a damn. Same thing with criminals.
Teflon
Richard J
Indeed. It is the old domino theory, John. Knock down the first domino
and then the next, the next, etc.
Teflon
John Rennie
"Richard J" <ric...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3DA9E227...@hotmail.com...
By the time he's done a second offence , he has probably served time and his
company for 2 or 3 years would have been that of criminals. He would find
it difficult to get a decent job after serving his sentence as he has to
reveal the fact that he has been to prison to any potential employer.
Whether he gives a damn or not the pressure to revert to criminality is very
strong.
John Rennie
John Rennie
> Le Sun, 13 Oct 2002 23:54:19 +0100, John Rennie <j.re...@ntlworld.com>
a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> >> The first or second time, perhaps. It's sort of like "accidental
> >> pregnancy". I can understand how a woman might get accidentally
> >> pregnant one or perhaps even two times, even in today's world. The
> >> third, fourth, or fifth times, cannot be a mistake but either sheer
> >> ignorance or not giving a damn. Same thing with criminals.
>
his
> > company for 2 or 3 years would have been that of criminals. He would
find
> > it difficult to get a decent job after serving his sentence as he has to
> > reveal the fact that he has been to prison to any potential employer.
> > Whether he gives a damn or not the pressure to revert to criminality is
very
> > strong.
>
> policy of 'stiff' colonial sentences for non-violent offenders is a policy
> based in lunacy. You get someone who's never used violence in their
> entire life, send them down for five years for a victimless offence like
> possession of cannabis, and by the time they get out, they're well
equipped
> to 'graduate' to armed robbery.
>
> --
> Desmond Coughlan
The following should be instructive to us all:
WHY FINLAND IS SOFT ON CRIME
In a classroom thick with wigs, sinks and barber chairs, a man sprays water
through a woman's sudsy hair and works his fingers carefully to rinse the
shampoo. Standing in front of a large mirror, another man brushes and
sprays a woman's hair. Two others discuss styling techniques. It could be
a scene from any community college, but for the bars on the windows.
This is Hameenlinna Central Prison, near Helsinki. The stylist working at
the mirror is a convicted murderer. The man washing hair is a drug
trafficker. Two of the three women are also prisoners; the other is a
professional hairstylist hired to teach the class. There are no guards.
This is Finland's criminal justice system at work. Here, offenders either
serve remarkably short prison sentences or, far more commonly, no prison
time at all. Finland's incarceration rate is just 52 per 100,000 people,
less than half Canada's rate of 119 per 100,000 people and a tiny fraction
of the American rate of 702.
In Finland, prisoners can work or study at any education level. Outside
relationships are fostered with frequent visits and "home leaves."
Living conditions are generous by anyone's standard. At Hameenlinna, male
and female prisoners live together; occasionally they fall in love and get
married in the little auditorium that serves as the prison chapel.
Finland's criminal justice system is, in short, a liberal's dream and a
conservative's nightmare.
In that, Finland is far from unique. Most Western European nations consider
large prison populations shameful and use incarceration only as a last
resort. What sets Finland apart is how it came to be this way: More than 30
years ago, Finland made an explicit decision to abandon the country's long
tradition of very tough criminal justice in favour of the Western European
approach. Never before or since has a country so consciously and completely
shifted from one philosophy of justice to its opposite.
It was a grand experiment in criminal justice, and the results are in.
"We don't have this idea that 'hard crimes deserve hard punishment,' " says
Markku Salminen, the director general of Finland's prisons. Mr. Salminen
might seem an unlikely advocate for liberal justice policies. Tall, fit,
and sporting a classic policeman's moustache, he looks every inch the cop he
was for 30 years. But in Finland even the cops are liberals.
Mr. Salminen says one reason for the consensus is geography. "In Finland,
Russia is very close. We follow it very keenly."
Russian criminal justice is the negative image of Finland's. The St.
Petersburg region, with 5.9 million people, has 72,000 police officers - the
five million people of Finland employ 8,500. Russian criminals are far more
likely to be punished with prison time, and the sentences they receive are
far longer. And, in most cases, Russian convicts serve time in prison
conditions that would be considered barbaric and illegal in Finland.
The Finns also know that the two countries' crime rates are just as starkly
different. In an international survey, 82 per cent of Finns said they felt
safe walking alone in their neighbourhood after dark, the second highest
national rating ( after Sweden; both Canada and the United States scored
just more than 70 per cent, placing them near the bottom of the 11 countries
surveyed ). Russia wasn't included in that survey, but fear of crime is
widespread, and for good reason -- the murder rate in Russia is 10 times
that in Finland.
"We see that there is nobody safe in Russia," says Mr. Salminen.
For Finns, history makes the contrast with Russia all the more poignant.
Until the First World War, Finland was a province of the Russian Empire.
Crime and punishment in Finland were governed by the tough Russian justice
system, a system the Finns inherited after independence.
The break with Russia at the end of the First World War was followed by a
terrible civil war, political unrest, and then two wars with the U.S.S.R.
After 1945, peace returned, but Finland was firmly fixed within the Soviet
Union's sphere of influence.
This violent history hardened Finnish attitudes toward crime and punishment.
Long prison sentences in austere conditions were standard. In the 1950s,
Finland's incarceration rate was 200 prisoners per 100,000 people -- a
normal rate for East Bloc countries such as Poland and Czechoslovakia where
justice systems had been Sovietized, but four times the rate in Sweden,
Norway, and Denmark.
In the 1960s, Finland began edging cautiously toward reform, using its
Scandinavian neighbours as models. Nils Christie, a renowned Norwegian
criminologist, recalls speaking to Finnish judges and criminologists in
Helsinki in 1968. At the time, Mr. Christie and others were developing the
first international comparisons of prison populations, so he was the first
to tell the Finns that their incarceration rate was totally unlike that of
their Scandinavian neighbours and was "really in the Russian tradition." The
audience was shocked, Mr Christie recalls in an interview in Ottawa, "and
some of them then decided this was not a very good policy."
Discussions and debates were widespread. Ultimately, says Tapio
Lappi-Seppala, the director of the Finnish National Research Institute of
Legal Policy, an agreement was reached that "our position was a kind of
disgrace."
During the next two decades, a long series of policy changes were
implemented, all united by one goal: To reduce imprisonment, either by
diverting offenders to other forms of punishment or by reducing the time
served in prison. "It was a long-term and consistent policy," Mr.
Lappi-Seppala emphasizes. "It was not just one or two law reforms. It was
a coherent approach."
The reforms began in earnest in the late 1960s and continued into the 1990s.
In 1971, the laws allowing repeat criminals to be held indefinitely were
changed to apply only to dangerous, violent offenders. The use of
conditional sentences ( in which offenders avoid prison if they obey certain
conditions ) was greatly expanded. Community service was introduced.
Prisoners may be considered for parole after serving just 14 days; even
those who violate parole and are returned to prison are eligible for parole
again after one month. And for those who aren't paroled, there is early
release: All first-time offenders are let out after serving just half their
sentences, while other prisoners serve two-thirds.
Mediation was also implemented, allowing willing victims and offenders to
discuss if the offender can somehow set things right. "It does not replace
a prison sentence," says Mr. Lappi-Seppala, but "in minor crimes, you may
escape prosecution or you may get a reduction in your sentence." There are
now 5,000 cases of mediation per year, almost equal to the number of
imprisonments.
Juvenile justice was also liberalized. Criminals aged 15 to 21 can only be
imprisoned for extraordinary reasons -- and even then, they are released
after serving just one-third of their time. Children under the age of 15
cannot be charged with a crime.
The most serious crimes can still be punished with life sentences but these
are now routinely commuted, and the prisoner released, as early as 10 years
into the sentence and no longer than 15 or 16 years. The Finns retain a
power similar to Canada's "dangerous offender" law: Persons found to be
repeat, serious, violent offenders with a high likelihood of committing new
violent crimes can be held until they are determined to no longer be a
threat to the public. There are now 80 such offenders in prison and they,
like Canada's dangerous offenders, are unlikely to ever be released.
One especially critical change was the creation of sentencing guidelines
that set shorter norms. Similar guidelines are used in the United States,
but many of those restrict judges' discretion -- Finnish judges remain free
to sentence outside the norm if they feel that is appropriate.
Separation has been especially hard on her five-year-old. "The last time I
saw my son, he said, 'I don't want to grow up. I want to stay a baby.' And
I said, 'yes, you stay a baby until I get out and we'll grow up together.' "
Her voice, quiet and steady throughout the interview, catches for the only
time.
I ask how long she has until she's released. "Two years and 11 months," she
answers instantly.
Violence is rare in Finnish prisons. Officials credit this calm in part to
their policy of giving prisoners as much contact with other people, both
inside and outside prisons, as possible. Frequent visits from family and
friends are encouraged, including conjugal visits.
There are also "home leaves." After serving six months, all prisoners can
apply for leave to return to their home towns for periods of up to six days
every four months. Only if a prisoner is considered likely to re-offend, or
is misbehaving, is he likely to be turned down. Home leaves have been
controversial in Finland, particularly when violent offenders are allowed
out, but the authorities insist the program is both successful and
necessary. Ninety per cent of home leaves occur without even minor
difficulties. And by allowing prisoners the chance to live briefly in the
real world, home leaves strengthen relationships and help prevent the
atrophy of basic social skills. "Prisoners must have contact with the civil
world," insists Ms. Toivonen.
Officials also try to build new relationships between prisoners and people
on the outside by bringing in volunteers, who may join group discussions or
even visit prisoners in their cells. The goal, says Mr. Aaltonen, is that
"everybody has some close connection with somebody -- some person outside,
whether it is a wife or husband, social worker, friend, voluntary worker
from the church or Red Cross. It is very important that everybody should
have somebody waiting for him."
If prisons don't encourage these relationships, says Mr. Aaltonen, released
convicts will be met on the outside "by a gang or friends involved in
crime."
Finland's extensive use of parole and early release also creates transition
periods in which released prisoners are supervised while they try to get
established in legitimate society. Before and after release, the
authorities help ex-cons get jobs and homes.
Thanks to Hollywood, North Americans imagine prisoners are released with
little more than a bus ticket and a shake of the warden's hand. In the
United States, and to a lesser extent Canada, there's some truth in that.
But in Finland, no prisoner is simply walked out the penitentiary gate.
That was the experiment. According to the "tough on crime" theory, what
Finland did was monumentally foolish. And a superficial reading of the data
appears to prove this school right. From the late 1960s to the early 1990s,
crime in Finland rose sharply while imprisonment declined rapidly,
suggesting that by going "soft" Finland fostered crime.
But crime also rose in every other country in the developed world (
including Canada and the United States ), regardless of these country's
criminal justice policies. The reasons are complex. One factor: the
post-war baby boom produced a huge bulge in the young males who are always
responsible for most crime. More important and lasting was the rapid
urbanization of the era since the social restrictions that control behaviour
in rural environments are often weaker or non-existent in cities.
So Finland's experience has to be judged relative to other comparable
countries. In doing that, Mr. Lappi-Seppala explains, the absolute numbers
of crimes aren't important -- crime data usually cannot be compared
internationally because each country uses different definitions and
reporting standards. What matters are the trends.
Mr. Lappi-Seppala compared Finland's crime rates going back many decades
with Sweden and Norway and discovered "the trends are basically identical in
each of the countries. So despite the fact that we had radically different
prison policies, our crime trends went hand-in-hand with the other
countries."
When Finland took a hard-line approach, its crime trends were identical to
those of its liberal neighbours. And when it switched to a liberal system
its trends continued in line with its neighbours. Ultimately, Finland's
choices about how to punish crime had little or no effect on the crime rate.
Mr. Lappi-Seppala produces a chart that compares the number of robberies in
Finland with the average sentence given for that crime. In the decade
before 1965, judges cut the length of the average robbery sentence in half
with no effect on the number of robberies. Then from 1965 to 1990, the
sentences for robbery stayed about the same -- while robberies first grew by
five times, then dropped by a quarter, then doubled, then dropped by almost
half again. There is simply no correlation between the punishment inflicted
and the number of robberies.
Juvenile crime is another case in point. The astonishingly liberal approach
Finland implemented for juvenile crime -- no one under 15 can be charged,
and offenders between 15 and 21 are rarely incarcerated -- did not spark an
increase in juvenile crime. Over the last 20 years, the proportion of crime
for which young offenders are responsible has even declined.
After more than 30 years, the Finnish experiment has produced clear
conclusions: High incarceration rates and tough prison conditions do not
control crime. They are unnecessary. If a nation wishes, it can send few
offenders to prison, and make those prisons humane, without sacrificing the
public's safety.
For those interested in building a less punitive society, the benefits of
such an approach are obvious. But there are also more quantifiable returns.
Mr. Lappi-Seppala notes that, by one estimate, Finland's smaller prison
population has saved the country's taxpayers $200 million over the last 20
years.
Then there is Finland's bounty of time. About 6,500 years of human life was
saved from incarceration. Some 40,000 people avoided prison altogether.
Finland's reforms meant that this time was instead spent with families and
communities, a contribution whose value is surely great, if incalculable.
Mr. Salminen takes obvious pride in this record and hopes other countries
draw lessons from it. He has visited Canadian prisons and, in many ways, he
admires our system, particularly our rehabilitation programs. One such
program is now the subject of a trial in Finland.
"But at the same time," he notes, "there is a whole lot of Americanization."
That worries Mr. Salminen, who, like all Finnish justice officials, thinks
the wave of "tough on crime" policies in the United States is folly. If
Canada goes further in the American direction, he warns, "you get the
American problems, too."
Note from Rennie
Mind you the murder rate in Finland is still three times that of England and
Wales but then as they have much the same gun laws as the USA that is only
to be expected.
JIGSAW1695
From: Desmond Coughlan pasdespa...@zeouane.org
Message-id: <slrnaqk0j0.a17.p...@lievre.voute.net>
< Snipped>
I personally shrink from the entire doctrine of 'punishment' as a tool of
crime prevention, but I realise that such ideas are probably centuries
ahead of most current thinking. The 'short sharp shock' approach is still
in 'vogue' in much of society. There was no shortage of such brutes who
believed that treating teenagers like caged animals in the British 'Borstals',
was the way to prevent their reoffending. The present crop of deathies are
the spiritual descendants of such beasts.
===============================
So you are saying that it was the Brits who started it all!
Jigsaw
Richard J
That is an excuse. No one ever said it is easy to be an ex convict, but
I've known men who have served terms and gone on to have long and crime
free lives after being busted and sentenced three times. One is the
manager of a Mc Donald's in a small town near where I live at this tim.
Now that isn't the same as being an executive for a multinational
company, but it isn't a bad living either.
Making excuses for not going straight is not helping these guys, John.
Doing that only perpetuates repeat offenders.
Teflon
Richard J
>
> Le Sun, 13 Oct 2002 23:54:19 +0100, John Rennie <j.re...@ntlworld.com> a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> >> pregnancy". I can understand how a woman might get accidentally
> >> pregnant one or perhaps even two times, even in today's world. The
> >> third, fourth, or fifth times, cannot be a mistake but either sheer
> >> ignorance or not giving a damn. Same thing with criminals.
>
> > company for 2 or 3 years would have been that of criminals. He would find
> > it difficult to get a decent job after serving his sentence as he has to
> > reveal the fact that he has been to prison to any potential employer.
> > Whether he gives a damn or not the pressure to revert to criminality is very
> > strong.
>
> policy of 'stiff' colonial sentences for non-violent offenders is a policy
> based in lunacy. You get someone who's never used violence in their
> entire life, send them down for five years for a victimless offence like
> possession of cannabis, and by the time they get out, they're well equipped
> to 'graduate' to armed robbery.
>
> Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
> desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
> http: // www . zeouane . org
They have the choice, Desmond. Our prison school district offers
courses for prisoners which guarantee them a decent job when they get
out. They can become air cond. tech., computer tech., electricians,
plumbers, carpenters, cabinet makers, and several other high demand and
very much needed service technicians. The state will even place them in
job positions when they are released. The problem is that many only
take the programs for the "good time" which reduces their sentences
rather than a serious attempt to improve their life and go straight.
Sorry, everyone has to make the choice to be honest or be a crook. It
isn't made for them.
Teflon
Richard J
The theory is that the death penalty is first attacked. Once that is
abolished, liberals will argue that the harsher penalties are too harsh,
that anyone locked up for life or long terms would become embittered, so
we should shorten the terms. Etc. etc.
Teflon
Richard J
> >> and then the next, the next, etc.
>
>
> I think he means that abolitionists will obtain the abolition of the death
> penalty, and then we shall 'move on' to life imprisonment ... followed by
> 25-year sentences ... followed by gaol ...
>
> I fear that retentionists like Richard really believe that abolitionists want
> no punishments at all, for criminals.
>
> --
> Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
> desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
> http: // www . zeouane . org
No, I just feel that your idea of what is punishment and mine vary
dramatically, and that the domino theory is one way to get your ends
over the objection of the majority of the public here.
Teflon
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 10:51:23 +0000
>
>Le 13 Oct 2002 03:09:27 GMT, JIGSAW1695 <jigsa...@aol.com> a écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> Really ? So the bloke that got life for stealing a pizza ... that's
>'just'
>>> in your opinion, Jigsaw ?
>
>> which bloke is that???
>
>Jerry Dewayne. He stole a slice of pepperoni pizza, and was sent down for
>'25-to-life' in 1995 by a court in Los Angeles.
>
>url:http://www.facts1.com/general/news.htm
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 10:51:23 +0000
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>Message-ID: <slrnaqik1a.89s.p...@lievre.voute.net>
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><20021012230927...@mb-ml.aol.com>
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 21:11:49 +0000
>
>Le Sun, 13 Oct 2002 09:04:22 -0500, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a écrit :
>
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> If you do, then I suspect that you have a major problem with perspective.
>>> If you don't, then I believe that we have the basis for a discussion, and
>>> you are one step closer to seeing why many people consider a sentence of
>>> death to be 'unjust', irrespective of the gravity of the offence of which
>>> the condemned has been found guilty.
>
>> I can actually see both sides of the argument, Desmond. Getting a life
>> sentence for stealing a pizza seems to be grossly unfair. On the other
>> hand, being a habitual criminal isn't cool either.
>
>I'm willing to bet that the criminal doesn't do it through choice.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 21:11:49 +0000
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 10:57:50 +0000
>
>Le Sun, 13 Oct 2002 10:51:23 +0000, Desmond Coughlan
><pasdespa...@zeouane.org> a écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>> url:http://www.facts1.com/general/news.htm
>
>Another little anecdote that I found, upon following one of the links on
>that page ...
>
>url:http://www.facts1.com/events/00-02-01.htm
>
>One of the jurors said, 'Your honor, I have a moral objection to being a
>part of a process that would impose a life sentence on someone for stealing
>a $300 bike.'
>
>I don't know what's more striking: relief that someone had the moral
>courage to stand up and do what was right, i.e. refusing to sentence someone
>to life for having stolen an inanimate object ... or despair that a few
>minutes later, the judge was able to replace those two upstanding citizens,
>with two who _were_ prepared to destroy a man's life for $300 (304 EUR).
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 10:57:50 +0000
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 23:52:10 +0000
>
>Le 13 Oct 2002 23:48:29 GMT, JIGSAW1695 <jigsa...@aol.com> a écrit :
>
>>> I personally shrink from the entire doctrine of 'punishment' as a tool of
>>> crime prevention, but I realise that such ideas are probably centuries
>>> ahead of most current thinking. The 'short sharp shock' approach is still
>>> in 'vogue' in much of society. There was no shortage of such brutes who
>>> believed that treating teenagers like caged animals in the British
>'Borstals',
>>> was the way to prevent their reoffending. The present crop of deathies
>are
>>> the spiritual descendants of such beasts.
>
>> So you are saying that it was the Brits who started it all!
>
>Isn't it always ??
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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s.FR!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 23:52:10 +0000
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 11:14:59 +0000
>
>Le 13 Oct 2002 11:08:27 GMT, JIGSAW1695 <jigsa...@aol.com> a écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> I am of course referring to the 'three-strikes-and-you're-out' law, which
>>> resulted in a man being sent to prison for 25 years to life, for the theft
>>> of a pizza.
>
>> One of the questions that demand to be answered was whether or not the
>> arrestee was on parole. Was he sentenced for violation of parole?
>>
>> We will wait for your reply
>
>As far as I can ascertain, no, Jerry Dewayne Williams (I missed out his
>surname in my previous follow-up) was not on parole. He had prior
>convictions for robbery, attempted robbery, car theft, and possession of
>drugs.
>
>So in other words, at no point had he killed, now or in the past. A
>petty thief. Yet he ends up in gaol for life. Do you consider this
>just ?
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 11:14:59 +0000
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 16:44:29 +0000
>
>Le Sun, 13 Oct 2002 10:28:58 +0100, John Rennie <j.re...@ntlworld.com> a
>écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> > Judicial murder is an impossibility Desmond. As far as I'm concerned,
>>> > we could ship all our capital murderers to Europe and release them
>>> > there. We wouldn't have to worry about them or feed them.
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> _Non sequitur_, Richard. No one is suggesting release for this animal.
>>> I for one am just examining options which would allow society to impose a
>>> just, humane sentence (i.e. a non-capital one).
>
>> I think we, the abolitionists that is, should drop all pretence that LWOP
>is
>> a humane sentence. It isn't and that is not the purpose of those
>pragmatic
>> abolitionists who wish to substitute it for the death penalty.
>
>I have stated that I am not in favour of life imprisonment without parole.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 16:44:29 +0000
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 21:13:42 +0000
>
>Le Sun, 13 Oct 2002 09:08:25 -0500, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a écrit :
>
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> So in other words, at no point had he killed, now or in the past. A
>>> petty thief. Yet he ends up in gaol for life. Do you consider this
>>> just ?
>
>> Looks to me like he didn't get three strikes and was out. If you are
>> correct, he'd already had four strikes prior to the incident you
>> mentioned.
>
>I didn't count the offences, so can't comment. He could have been nicked
>for robbery, and had the drugs on him at the time of his arrest.
>
>> While I agree that life is severe for the crime of stealing
>> a pizza, this guy could have already been tried as a habitual criminal
>> after the third felony in Texas. It appears to me he was given more
>> than sufficient chance to turn his life around.
>
>Perhaps he was, but Richard ... life for a slice of pepperoni pizza ? I
>mean, 'four cheeses', I can understand, but ... pepperoni ?
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 21:13:42 +0000
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 22:57:57 +0000
>
>Le Sun, 13 Oct 2002 23:55:14 +0100, John Rennie <j.re...@ntlworld.com> a
>écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> Indeed. It is the old domino theory, John. Knock down the first domino
>>> and then the next, the next, etc.
>
>> Huh?
>
>I think he means that abolitionists will obtain the abolition of the death
>penalty, and then we shall 'move on' to life imprisonment ... followed by
>25-year sentences ... followed by gaol ...
>
>I fear that retentionists like Richard really believe that abolitionists want
>no punishments at all, for criminals.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 22:57:57 +0000
>Organization: None
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 00:10:47 +0000
>
>Le Sun, 13 Oct 2002 18:59:45 -0500, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a écrit :
>
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> I fear that retentionists like Richard really believe that abolitionists
>want
>>> no punishments at all, for criminals.
>
>> No, I just feel that your idea of what is punishment and mine vary
>> dramatically, and that the domino theory is one way to get your ends
>> over the objection of the majority of the public here.
>
>But you just wrote ...
>
> 'The theory is that the death penalty is first attacked. Once
> that is abolished, liberals will argue that the harsher penalties
> are too harsh, that anyone locked up for life or long terms would
> become embittered, so we should shorten the terms. Etc. etc.'
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 00:10:47 +0000
>Organization: None
>Lines: 22
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 10:49:37 +0000
>
>Le Sat, 12 Oct 2002 19:07:34 -0500, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a écrit :
>
>
>>> >> A just sentence to me is what the court determines is just. If that is
>>> >> that a murderer must forfeit his own life because he took an innocent
>>> >> one that is just.
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> Really ? So the bloke that got life for stealing a pizza ... that's
>'just'
>>> in your opinion, Jigsaw ?
>
>> A life for a life is just. Life imprisonment for staling a pizza isn't
>> just, that is just plain silly, Desmond.
>
>I'd agree, Richard, but you stated above, 'A just sentence to me is what the
>court determines is just'. Now, if a court determines that life in
>gaol is 'just', for the theft of a pizza ... would you consider that 'just' ?
>
>I am of course referring to the 'three-strikes-and-you're-out' law, which
>resulted in a man being sent to prison for 25 years to life, for the theft
>of a pizza.
>
>That sentence was passed down by a court. You state that sentences passed
>down by courts, are 'just'. Do you consider that sentence 'just' ?
>
>If you do, then I suspect that you have a major problem with perspective.
>If you don't, then I believe that we have the basis for a discussion, and
>you are one step closer to seeing why many people consider a sentence of
>death to be 'unjust', irrespective of the gravity of the offence of which
>the condemned has been found guilty.
>
>{ snip }
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 10:49:37 +0000
>Organization: None
>Lines: 37
>Message-ID: <slrnaqiju1.89s.p...@lievre.voute.net>
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 11:23:02 +0000
>
>Le 13 Oct 2002 11:12:12 GMT, JIGSAW1695 <jigsa...@aol.com> a écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> Jerry Dewayne. He stole a slice of pepperoni pizza, and was sent down for
>>> '25-to-life' in 1995 by a court in Los Angeles.
>>>
>>> url:http://www.facts1.com/general/news.htm
>
>> Conveniently, it fails to state whether he was on parole or probation
>> at the time. This failure makes the argument against his incarceration
>> worthless. Nice try though.
>
>'Conveniently' ? Try not to let your prejudices show, Jigsaw.
>
>Would you consider a life sentence 'just', if he were on parole for a crime
>which at the time of his original sentencing, did not qualify for a life
>sentence ?
>
>Let me make it clearer ...
>
>Case 1. John Doe commits murder, and gets sentenced to 25 years. After 15
> years, he gets parole, and a month later, steals a pizza. The
> system then says, 'Right, you can't be trusted to behave yourself,
> back inside you go.'
>
>Case 2. Jim Doe burgles ten houses, gets sentenced to 5 years. After 2
> years, he gets parole, and a month later, steals a pizza. The
> system then says, 'Right, you can't be trusted to behave yourself,
> back inside you go.'
>
>Which of those do you consider 'just', Jigsaw ? Both of them ? Neither of
>them ?
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>e117.dhcp212-198-68.noos.FR!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 11:23:02 +0000
>Organization: None
>Lines: 38
>Message-ID: <slrnaqilsm.8ed.p...@lievre.voute.net>
>References: <slrnaqik1a.89s.p...@lievre.voute.net>
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 23:01:06 +0000
>
>Le Sun, 13 Oct 2002 23:54:19 +0100, John Rennie <j.re...@ntlworld.com> a
>écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> The first or second time, perhaps. It's sort of like "accidental
>>> pregnancy". I can understand how a woman might get accidentally
>>> pregnant one or perhaps even two times, even in today's world. The
>>> third, fourth, or fifth times, cannot be a mistake but either sheer
>>> ignorance or not giving a damn. Same thing with criminals.
>
>> By the time he's done a second offence , he has probably served time and
>his
>> company for 2 or 3 years would have been that of criminals. He would
>find
>> it difficult to get a decent job after serving his sentence as he has to
>> reveal the fact that he has been to prison to any potential employer.
>> Whether he gives a damn or not the pressure to revert to criminality is
>very
>> strong.
>
>Prisons are often referred to as 'universities of crime'. It is why the
>policy of 'stiff' colonial sentences for non-violent offenders is a policy
>based in lunacy. You get someone who's never used violence in their
>entire life, send them down for five years for a victimless offence like
>possession of cannabis, and by the time they get out, they're well equipped
>to 'graduate' to armed robbery.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 23:01:06 +0000
>Organization: None
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 15:12:02 +0000
>
>Le Sun, 13 Oct 2002 15:19:12 +0200, Earl Evleth <evl...@wanadoo.fr> a écrit
>:
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> 'Conveniently' ? Try not to let your prejudices show, Jigsaw.
>
>> Could it be a Jigsaw dodge to discuss the essentials?
>
>Jigsaw can't even _spell_ 'essentials', let alone discuss them ...
>
>> Jigsaw could have looked up cases on the web and decide what
>> the overall impact of the law was, or whether in general the
>> sentences were just, not just the unjust one of Jerry Dewayne Williams.
>
>In all the time Jigsaw has been posting to this newsgroup, I have yet to
>see him express disagreement with a _single_ 'guilty' verdict. At the same
>time, findings of 'not-guilty' are all due to 'technicalities'. I'm willing
>to bet that were he ever accused of a crime he didn't commit, 'not having
>done
>it' would be enough of a 'technicality' for him.
>
>> There have been other minor theft sentences too.
>
>I saw some mention of someone gaoled for life for stealing a bottle of
>vitamin tablets ...
>
>{ snip }
>
>> This home page has some misleading statements, seems to say that
>> the drop in the California crime rate is associated with the law. I
>> don`t think statistical support could be found to claim this.
>
>Whilst searching this morning, I came across a site which claimed a 25%
>drop in crime in California due to the 'three-strikes' law, but it was one
>of those 'gun nut' sites with the Stars and Stripes across the top, so I
>knew that it would be fairy tale material.
>
>> Now, Jiggy, discuss the issues.
>
>LOL ... you're a real optimist, Earl.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 15:12:02 +0000
>Organization: None
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 00:00:24 +0000
>
>Le Sun, 13 Oct 2002 18:49:25 -0500, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a écrit :
>
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> > The first or second time, perhaps. It's sort of like "accidental
>>> > pregnancy". I can understand how a woman might get accidentally
>>> > pregnant one or perhaps even two times, even in today's world. The
>>> > third, fourth, or fifth times, cannot be a mistake but either sheer
>>> > ignorance or not giving a damn. Same thing with criminals.
>
>>> By the time he's done a second offence , he has probably served time and
>his
>>> company for 2 or 3 years would have been that of criminals. He would
>find
>>> it difficult to get a decent job after serving his sentence as he has to
>>> reveal the fact that he has been to prison to any potential employer.
>>> Whether he gives a damn or not the pressure to revert to criminality is
>very
>>> strong.
>
>> That is an excuse. No one ever said it is easy to be an ex convict, but
>> I've known men who have served terms and gone on to have long and crime
>> free lives after being busted and sentenced three times. One is the
>> manager of a Mc Donald's in a small town near where I live at this tim.
>> Now that isn't the same as being an executive for a multinational
>> company, but it isn't a bad living either.
>>
>> Making excuses for not going straight is not helping these guys, John.
>> Doing that only perpetuates repeat offenders.
>
>Citing examples of ex-convicts who are 'going straight' isn't doing any
>favours to anyone, either, Richard. It's like claiming that 'guns aren't
>dangerous', because some people recover from gunshot wounds.
>
>Brutality always has begotten brutality, Richard. Treat prisoners like
>animals when they go _into_ the criminal justice system, and you'll get
>'animals' at the other end, when they come _out_ of the system.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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s.FR!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 00:00:24 +0000
>Organization: None
>Lines: 39
>Message-ID: <slrnaqk28o.bbr.p...@lievre.voute.net>
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 00:09:37 +0000
>
>Le Sun, 13 Oct 2002 18:55:02 -0500, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a écrit :
>
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> Prisons are often referred to as 'universities of crime'. It is why the
>>> policy of 'stiff' colonial sentences for non-violent offenders is a policy
>>> based in lunacy. You get someone who's never used violence in their
>>> entire life, send them down for five years for a victimless offence like
>>> possession of cannabis, and by the time they get out, they're well
>equipped
>>> to 'graduate' to armed robbery.
>
>> They have the choice, Desmond. Our prison school district offers
>> courses for prisoners which guarantee them a decent job when they get
>> out. They can become air cond. tech., computer tech., electricians,
>> plumbers, carpenters, cabinet makers, and several other high demand and
>> very much needed service technicians. The state will even place them in
>> job positions when they are released. The problem is that many only
>> take the programs for the "good time" which reduces their sentences
>> rather than a serious attempt to improve their life and go straight.
>
>Forward-thinking policies, to be applauded. However, not much use in
>an environment where 'punishment' is still the primary aim of a criminal
>justice system.
>
>> Sorry, everyone has to make the choice to be honest or be a crook. It
>> isn't made for them.
>
>I often wonder about this 'choice'. I was fortunate enough to be brought
>up in an environment where respect was the norm. I had a free education
>to postgraduate level in a higher education institute. I've never known
>hunger. What would my situation have been like, had I been born in the
>United States. Had my parents been in the same socio-economic stratum,
>they almost certainly would not have been able to pay for the classical
>education that I am fortunate to have. Would I have turned to crime to
>eat ?
>
>I believe that the expression used by Christians is 'There but for the grace
>of God go I'.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 00:09:37 +0000
>Organization: None
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 23:31:45 +0000
>
>Le Mon, 14 Oct 2002 00:18:28 +0100, John Rennie <j.re...@ntlworld.com> a
>écrit :
>
>{ snip}
>
>>> Prisons are often referred to as 'universities of crime'. It is why the
>>> policy of 'stiff' colonial sentences for non-violent offenders is a policy
>>> based in lunacy. You get someone who's never used violence in their
>>> entire life, send them down for five years for a victimless offence like
>>> possession of cannabis, and by the time they get out, they're well
>> equipped
>>> to 'graduate' to armed robbery.
>
>> The following should be instructive to us all:
>>
>> WHY FINLAND IS SOFT ON CRIME
>
>{ snip interesting article }
>
>Nice. Such a refreshing change from the Anglo-Saxon view that brutal
>'punishment' will somehow 'dissuade' criminals from reoffending. I have
>always believed that in-gaol education is the way forward, to show the
>convicted that not only is an alternative way of life within the law,
>desirable, but more important, that it is _within their grasp_. This
>article would appear to confirm many of my beliefs.
>
>> The Finns retain a power similar to Canada's "dangerous offender" law:
>> Persons found to be repeat, serious, violent offenders with a high
>> likelihood of committing new violent crimes can be held until they are
>> determined to no longer be a threat to the public. There are now 80
>> such offenders in prison and they, like Canada's dangerous offenders,
>> are unlikely to ever be released.
>
>This too is in line with my view. I fail to see the 'benefit' of continuing
>'punishment' once it has been ascertained that the prisoner is no longer a
>threat to society. Like holding the head under water once the lesson has
>been learned, just to 'teach a lesson'. It has never worked, and it won't
>ever work.
>
>I personally shrink from the entire doctrine of 'punishment' as a tool of
>crime prevention, but I realise that such ideas are probably centuries
>ahead of most current thinking. The 'short sharp shock' approach is still
>in 'vogue' in much of society. There was no shortage of such brutes who
>believed that treating teenagers like caged animals in the British
>'Borstals',
>was the way to prevent their reoffending. The present crop of deathies are
>the spiritual descendants of such beasts.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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t-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Still another Virginia shooting, and the white van again.
>Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 23:31:45 +0000
>Organization: None
>Lines: 50
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Richard J
> >> policy of 'stiff' colonial sentences for non-violent offenders is a policy
> >> based in lunacy. You get someone who's never used violence in their
> >> entire life, send them down for five years for a victimless offence like
> >> possession of cannabis, and by the time they get out, they're well equipped
> >> to 'graduate' to armed robbery.
>
> > courses for prisoners which guarantee them a decent job when they get
> > out. They can become air cond. tech., computer tech., electricians,
> > plumbers, carpenters, cabinet makers, and several other high demand and
> > very much needed service technicians. The state will even place them in
> > job positions when they are released. The problem is that many only
> > take the programs for the "good time" which reduces their sentences
> > rather than a serious attempt to improve their life and go straight.
>
> an environment where 'punishment' is still the primary aim of a criminal
> justice system.
Still making excuses. Most first timers, and even second time felons do
not have extremely harsh sentences. A felon might only serve a couple
of years for armed robbery and most are segregated from older more
experienced felons in most cases. The opportunities are there Desmond,
and the punishment mentality you speak of is not that much of a factor.
>
> > Sorry, everyone has to make the choice to be honest or be a crook. It
> > isn't made for them.
>
> I often wonder about this 'choice'. I was fortunate enough to be brought
> up in an environment where respect was the norm. I had a free education
> to postgraduate level in a higher education institute. I've never known
> hunger. What would my situation have been like, had I been born in the
> United States. Had my parents been in the same socio-economic stratum,
> they almost certainly would not have been able to pay for the classical
> education that I am fortunate to have. Would I have turned to crime to
> eat ?
If you chose to, or you could have done as I did and work your way
through college.
>
> I believe that the expression used by Christians is 'There but for the grace
> of God go I'.
>
> --
> Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
> desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
> http: // www . zeouane . org
Only if you are criminally inclined and not prone to work for a living.
Teflon
Richard J
> >> > pregnancy". I can understand how a woman might get accidentally
> >> > pregnant one or perhaps even two times, even in today's world. The
> >> > third, fourth, or fifth times, cannot be a mistake but either sheer
> >> > ignorance or not giving a damn. Same thing with criminals.
>
> >> company for 2 or 3 years would have been that of criminals. He would find
> >> it difficult to get a decent job after serving his sentence as he has to
> >> reveal the fact that he has been to prison to any potential employer.
> >> Whether he gives a damn or not the pressure to revert to criminality is very
> >> strong.
>
> > That is an excuse. No one ever said it is easy to be an ex convict, but
> > I've known men who have served terms and gone on to have long and crime
> > free lives after being busted and sentenced three times. One is the
> > manager of a Mc Donald's in a small town near where I live at this tim.
> > Now that isn't the same as being an executive for a multinational
> > company, but it isn't a bad living either.
> >
> > Making excuses for not going straight is not helping these guys, John.
> > Doing that only perpetuates repeat offenders.
>
> favours to anyone, either, Richard. It's like claiming that 'guns aren't
> dangerous', because some people recover from gunshot wounds.
It shows that a felon doesn't have to continue a life of crime unless
they want to, Desmond. Life isn't easy, but whoever is willing ot work
can make it without resorting to crime. I've been as poor as many who
have gone to prison, but I never resorted to breaking the law. Instead
of crime to earn money, I got another job or worked more hours to
support myself and my family. When I first married and attended
college, my take home pay was $48.50 per week unless I was lucky enough
to get overtime. Whenever I could, I took double shifts to make a
living. It made staying awake in class a bit difficult, but I did it.
Later on, I worked in a gas station. before marriage, I worked for a
funeral home, keeping the night watch as well as funerals when I wasn't
in class.
Do not try to tell me that because you are poor you have to resort to a
life of crime. I didn't, and I managed to get a decent education,
eventually winding up with 24 hours toward a Doctorate which I chose
(not conditions) not to finish. Don't even go there.
>
> Brutality always has begotten brutality, Richard. Treat prisoners like
> animals when they go _into_ the criminal justice system, and you'll get
> 'animals' at the other end, when they come _out_ of the system.
>
> --
> Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
> desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
> http: // www . zeouane . org
You need ot come to the prisons here and visit, Desmond. I think you
will find the conditions here are not what you believe them to be.
Teflon
Richard J
> >> no punishments at all, for criminals.
>
> > dramatically, and that the domino theory is one way to get your ends
> > over the objection of the majority of the public here.
>
>
> 'The theory is that the death penalty is first attacked. Once
> that is abolished, liberals will argue that the harsher penalties
> are too harsh, that anyone locked up for life or long terms would
> become embittered, so we should shorten the terms. Etc. etc.'
>
> Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
> desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
> http: // www . zeouane . org
It was your statement that I felt liberals wanted no punishment at all.
I know that not to be true, but I do feel that what some liberals want
is not going to be a deterrent in most instances in the US. Thus, I
have different views about what is wrong here.
one thing we do here is start out giving lenient punishments to
criminals at first, in many cases only community service. The youthful
criminal learns then that the laws can be broken with relative impunity
and starts thinking that the punishment isn't too bad. Perhaps the next
felony violation results in six months in a state jail (as opposed to
prison). The offender might serve half that time and again thinks:
"That was nothing, I could do that standing on my head." The third
felony starts to get serious time, say 15 years for burglary, and
liberals start crying about the harsh sentencing laws. "That man got
fifteen years for breaking in a house and stealing a $200 television
set! That is too harsh!", cries the liberal.
What the liberal fails to take into account is the same felon had
already committed perhaps two or three other felony burglaries prior to
that time and had very little punishment. That's what I'm talking
about.
Perhaps we need to send a bit stronger message the first time coupled
with some serious counseling, educational opportunities both formal and
vocational, and job placement upon release coupled with close
monitoring. If we did that, I feel we would not have as many repeat
offenders.
Teflon
Teflon
JIGSAW1695
From: Desmond Coughlan pasdespa...@zeouane.org
Message-id: <slrnaqk28o.bbr.p...@lievre.voute.net>
Le Sun, 13 Oct 2002 18:49:25 -0500, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a écrit :
{ snip }
>> > The first or second time, perhaps. It's sort of like "accidental
>> > pregnancy". I can understand how a woman might get accidentally
>> > pregnant one or perhaps even two times, even in today's world. The
>> > third, fourth, or fifth times, cannot be a mistake but either sheer
>> > ignorance or not giving a damn. Same thing with criminals.
>> By the time he's done a second offence , he has probably served time and his
>> company for 2 or 3 years would have been that of criminals. He would find
>> it difficult to get a decent job after serving his sentence as he has to
>> reveal the fact that he has been to prison to any potential employer.
>> Whether he gives a damn or not the pressure to revert to criminality is very
>> strong.
> That is an excuse. No one ever said it is easy to be an ex convict, but
> I've known men who have served terms and gone on to have long and crime
> free lives after being busted and sentenced three times. One is the
> manager of a Mc Donald's in a small town near where I live at this tim.
> Now that isn't the same as being an executive for a multinational
> company, but it isn't a bad living either.
>
> Making excuses for not going straight is not helping these guys, John.
> Doing that only perpetuates repeat offenders.
Citing examples of ex-convicts who are 'going straight' isn't doing any
favours to anyone, either, Richard. It's like claiming that 'guns aren't
dangerous', because some people recover from gunshot wounds.
Brutality always has begotten brutality, Richard. Treat prisoners like
animals when they go _into_ the criminal justice system, and you'll get
'animals' at the other end, when they come _out_ of the system.
--
Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4
===============================
What about those who were animals before they got locked up??? What about them,
Dezi?
A Planet Visitor
> >> and then the next, the next, etc.
>
> > Huh?
>
> I think he means that abolitionists will obtain the abolition of the death
> penalty, and then we shall 'move on' to life imprisonment ... followed by
> 25-year sentences ... followed by gaol ...
>
> no punishments at all, for criminals.
>
what you preferred. When you wrote -- "I personally shrink from the entire
doctrine of 'punishment' as a tool of crime prevention."
You memory is getting much worse. It used to take you 2 days to
forget what you said... now you do so in 20 minutes.
PV
> --
> Desmond Coughlan |THE BITCH DROPPED THE BIKE ON MY TOE
> |SO I DUMPED HER SORRY ASS
> |AND MY 5 KIDS AS WELL
A Planet Visitor
> >> pregnancy". I can understand how a woman might get accidentally
> >> pregnant one or perhaps even two times, even in today's world. The
> >> third, fourth, or fifth times, cannot be a mistake but either sheer
> >> ignorance or not giving a damn. Same thing with criminals.
>
> > By the time he's done a second offence , he has probably served time and his
> > company for 2 or 3 years would have been that of criminals. He would find
> > it difficult to get a decent job after serving his sentence as he has to
> > reveal the fact that he has been to prison to any potential employer.
> > Whether he gives a damn or not the pressure to revert to criminality is very
> > strong.
>
> policy of 'stiff' colonial sentences for non-violent offenders is a policy
> based in lunacy. You get someone who's never used violence in their
> entire life, send them down for five years for a victimless offence like
> possession of cannabis, and by the time they get out, they're well equipped
> to 'graduate' to armed robbery.
>
case of some very violent murderers who may pass on the 'tricks of
the trade,' to those who have already 'graduated' to armed robbery, and
may take an advanced 'graduate' course from those murderers who would have
been executed. Possibly now becoming 'expert' class murderers,
after release.
A Planet Visitor
> >> > we could ship all our capital murderers to Europe and release them
> >> > there. We wouldn't have to worry about them or feed them.
>
> { snip }
>
> >> _Non sequitur_, Richard. No one is suggesting release for this animal.
> >> I for one am just examining options which would allow society to impose a
> >> just, humane sentence (i.e. a non-capital one).
>
> > I think we, the abolitionists that is, should drop all pretence that LWOP is
> > a humane sentence. It isn't and that is not the purpose of those pragmatic
> > abolitionists who wish to substitute it for the death penalty.
>
> I have stated that I am not in favour of life imprisonment without parole.
>
The big-time 'willing to take a gamble' set 'em free sportsman.
Jesus... you are sooooo easy. Schrödinger's Cat!!!!! What a laugh.
A Planet Visitor
> >> policy of 'stiff' colonial sentences for non-violent offenders is a policy
> >> based in lunacy. You get someone who's never used violence in their
> >> entire life, send them down for five years for a victimless offence like
> >> possession of cannabis, and by the time they get out, they're well
> > equipped
> >> to 'graduate' to armed robbery.
>
> >
> > WHY FINLAND IS SOFT ON CRIME
>
> { snip interesting article }
>
> Nice. Such a refreshing change from the Anglo-Saxon view that brutal
> 'punishment' will somehow 'dissuade' criminals from reoffending. I have
> always believed that in-gaol education is the way forward, to show the
> convicted that not only is an alternative way of life within the law,
> desirable, but more important, that it is _within their grasp_. This
> article would appear to confirm many of my beliefs.
>
> > The Finns retain a power similar to Canada's "dangerous offender" law:
> > Persons found to be repeat, serious, violent offenders with a high
> > likelihood of committing new violent crimes can be held until they are
> > determined to no longer be a threat to the public. There are now 80
> > such offenders in prison and they, like Canada's dangerous offenders,
> > are unlikely to ever be released.
>
> This too is in line with my view. I fail to see the 'benefit' of continuing
> 'punishment' once it has been ascertained that the prisoner is no longer a
> threat to society. Like holding the head under water once the lesson has
> been learned, just to 'teach a lesson'. It has never worked, and it won't
> ever work.
>
If you 'shrink' from it, then you oppose even one day of incarceration
for a murderer, at the extreme... since even ONE DAY of incarceration
is defined as 'punishment.' ONE DAY of depriving someone of their
LIBERTY is defined as 'punishment,' if done so against their will.
<rest of self-serving hypocrisy clipped>
John Rennie
"Richard J" <ric...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3DAA0685...@hotmail.com...
> John Rennie wrote:
snip
>
> > By the time he's done a second offence , he has probably served time and
his
> > company for 2 or 3 years would have been that of criminals. He would
find
> > it difficult to get a decent job after serving his sentence as he has to
> > reveal the fact that he has been to prison to any potential employer.
> > Whether he gives a damn or not the pressure to revert to criminality is
very
> > strong.
>
> That is an excuse. No one ever said it is easy to be an ex convict, but
> I've known men who have served terms and gone on to have long and crime
> free lives after being busted and sentenced three times. One is the
> manager of a Mc Donald's in a small town near where I live at this tim.
> Now that isn't the same as being an executive for a multinational
> company, but it isn't a bad living either.
>
> Making excuses for not going straight is not helping these guys, John.
> Doing that only perpetuates repeat offenders.
>
> Teflon
Forgive (sic) me but I was under the impression that you are
a Christian. Am I correct? I am also under
the impression that you were brought up decently by decent
parents. Am I correct again? It is sometimes difficult for those
so brought to try to imagine what it is like to be shall we say
a product of a single parent family where one has had to
fend for oneself at a far too early age. 'Do unto others
before they do it to you' is the attitude of many brought
up in such am fashion. Those few, and I believe it is a
minority of American men who do not transgress again are
to be applauded but that does not mean that those that
do are to be treated forever as pariahs. Read the Finland
article thoroughly. See how their experience differs
from yours and admit that the 'American way' might just
be at fault.
John Rennie
"JIGSAW1695" <jigsa...@aol.com> wrote in message
===============================
>
> What about those who were animals before they got locked up??? What about
them,
> Dezi?
We are all animals, Jiggy. Who taught you otherwise?
John Rennie
"Richard J" <ric...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
snip
> > > Indeed. It is the old domino theory, John. Knock down the first
domino
> > > and then the next, the next, etc.
> > >
> > > Teflon
> >
> > Huh?
>
> The theory is that the death penalty is first attacked. Once that is
> abolished, liberals will argue that the harsher penalties are too harsh,
> that anyone locked up for life or long terms would become embittered, so
> we should shorten the terms. Etc. etc.
>
> Teflon
I see. Nothing to do with me then as I believe the crime of murder is
treated too lightly in the USA with the average murderer
receiving too light a sentence. Indeed I think one of the underlying
reasons that you retain the DP is cover up a too lenient
attitude towards the 15000 or so murderers
who receive prison sentences. Remove the DP and the public will demand
longer sentences for those who commit murder and LWOP for those who can
never be trusted again.
JIGSAW1695
Date: 10/14/2002 5:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <SKvq9.12463$345.6...@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net>
===============================
<< S I G H ! >>
Richard J
Finland is pretty much a homogenous nation with little similarity to the
US. I'm glad what they have works for them. That, however, is no
indicator it will or will not work elsewhere..
Teflon
Richard J
If you read another post of mine to Desmond, you would see that I
believe that sentencing for first violations in the US is, generally,
too lenient. I think we build our own monsters by sending the wrong
message with first time offenders, while doing little to nothing to
change them through counseling, and educational opportunity. Sure, when
they get to prison we will council them and give the educational
opportunities, even find jobs for them when they get our. The first
time they offend, however, they often never spend any time in prison,
only a little time in jail.
Teflon
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
Rennie" <j.re...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> "Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message
> news:slrnaqgtov.2mp.p...@lievre.voute.net...
> > Le Fri, 11 Oct 2002 22:30:43 -0500, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a
> écrit :
> >
> > { snip }
> >
> > >> Let us hope that he is tried in abolitionist Washington D.C., then.
> > >>
> > >> Let us pray that he stops killing, and takes a flight to Europe.
> > >> That
> > >> way, he will only be extradited back to the United States, once
> assurances
> > >> are given that he will not be judicially murdered.
> >
> > > Judicial murder is an impossibility Desmond. As far as I'm
> > > concerned,
> > > we could ship all our capital murderers to Europe and release them
> > > there. We wouldn't have to worry about them or feed them.
> >
> > <sigh>
> >
> > _Non sequitur_, Richard. No one is suggesting release for this animal.
> > I for one am just examining options which would allow society to impose
> > a
> > just, humane sentence (i.e. a non-capital one).
> >
> > --
> > Desmond Coughlan
>
> I think we, the abolitionists that is, should drop all pretence that LWOP
> is
> a humane sentence. It isn't and that is not the purpose of those
> pragmatic
> abolitionists who wish to substitute it for the death penalty.
Not all principled abolitionists regard it as "humane", either. Those
who have committed the most awful of crimes are not people we need to
worry about.
Mr Q. Z. D.
--
Drinker, systems administrator, wannabe writer, musician and all-round bastard.
"...Base 8 is just like base 10 really... ((o))
If you're missing two fingers." - Tom Lehrer ((O))