Giving Up Whitewater - Thoughts
Al Kubeluis
A year ago ww boating was all I wanted to do. Every opportunity I went
boating. With the drought and a move further away from ww, I have hardly
whitewatered in the last year, though I read rec.boats.paddle regularly. My
perspective has really changed. I still love ww, but believe ww is much too
dangerous based on the continuous death reports posted here, not to mention
close calls of which only a small percentage are likely posted. So dangerous
that I do not encourage family or friends to take it up. About two years ago
a friend gave up ww because of the danger. I could not believe it. Now I'm
on the verge of doing it, though probably won't totally. I am most fortunate
to have other water activities that I do regularly including sea kayaking,
sailing, and motor boating. And these satisfy more and more of my craving to
be on water. Just some thoughts.
Al Kubeluis
k1cajun
>
> A year ago ww boating was all I wanted to do. Every opportunity I went
> boating. With the drought and a move further away from ww, I have hardly
> whitewatered in the last year,
Well, I haven't done a lot in the past year either. A death in the
family last November put me out of the mood for the winter. Then along
came the drought. Now, like you, I'm moving away - in my case to the
flatlands and swamps of New Orleans (our home). But I still intend to
keep paddling whitewater. I'll just be doing more weekend trips,
instead of paddling after work. Luckily, the new job is going to have
very flexible work schedules.
> My perspective has really changed. I still love ww, but believe ww is much too
> dangerous based on the continuous death reports posted here, not to mention
> close calls of which only a small percentage are likely posted.
I hope I never reach that conclusion. You shouldn't base your opinion
on what you read here of accident reports. You gotta remember that this
is a national (sorry Wilko - INTERNATIONAL !) newsgroup. There's a
lotta people out there. And WW paddling is exploding in popularity. If
you were to take into account the number of paddlers, the number of
paddler/trips, and the number of paddler/trip/miles, you might be
surprised to learn that the odds are pretty damn good. And each paddler
can improve their odds by not overstepping their skill level.
But you do have a point about the unknown totals of close calls. On the
other hand, everyone has a different definition of a close call, whereas
we would all agree on what defines a death.
The thing is that anytime something is reported on a large scale, it
changes the perception of frequency. Take earthquakes, for instance.
Lately you hear about them on the news like it's some kind of trend.
I've heard some doomsayers talk about how the number of quakes is
increasing as we approach the end of the 20th century (which is Dec 31,
2000 by the way, not 1999). But earthquakes have probably been just as
frequent over human time, just that you couldn't hear about them as
quickly before radio and TV. Over geological time, they are decreasing
as the planet cools.
I've always felt that the upward trend in river deaths, may just be a
temporary spike. Like the trend of major hurricanes recently - some
years are bad, some good. There has to be a year with the most
something.
> So dangerous
> that I do not encourage family or friends to take it up. About two years ago
> a friend gave up ww because of the danger. I could not believe it. Now I'm
> on the verge of doing it, though probably won't totally.
I still encourage my wife to paddle WW with me, though I won't ever be
looking forward to her running class 5. She doesn't have the desire,
and it lets me enjoy the river without watching over her. And I do plan
on trying to get my brother hooked on it, since I think he would love it
and he's a great long distance driver - a perfect road trip paddling
partner.
> I am most fortunate
> to have other water activities that I do regularly including sea kayaking,
> sailing, and motor boating. And these satisfy more and more of my craving to
> be on water.
I used to own a motorboat before taking up kayaking. Noisy, smelly,
polluting, expensive. Gas prices are going to go up a lot higher in the
next decade. On the other hand, it will take lots'o gas to get me from
New Orleans to West Virginia, Tennessee, the Carolinas. And motor boats
are pretty essential for scuba diving (no kayak scuba for me).
Anyway Al, I'm not saying you're wrong to feel the way you do. We've
each got to reach our own conclusions, but just thought you might want
to hear another viewpoint.
Dave
Blakely LaCroix
<kube...@crosslink.net> writes:
>Hi Boaters,
> A year ago ww boating was all I wanted to do. Every opportunity I went
>boating. With the drought and a move further away from ww, I have hardly
>whitewatered in the last year, though I read rec.boats.paddle regularly. My
>perspective has really changed. I still love ww, but believe ww is much too
>dangerous based on the continuous death reports posted here, not to mention
>close calls of which only a small percentage are likely posted. So dangerous
>that I do not encourage family or friends to take it up. About two years ago
>a friend gave up ww because of the danger. I could not believe it. Now I'm
>on the verge of doing it, though probably won't totally. I am most fortunate
>to have other water activities that I do regularly including sea kayaking,
>sailing, and motor boating. And these satisfy more and more of my craving to
>be on water. Just some thoughts.
>Al Kubeluis
>
Thank you Al for posting your thoughts.
I have examined my relationship with whitewater this past year and have
wrestled with
a number of issues as well.
I am both a rafter and IKer. The IK is used mainly to explore smaller streams.
The IK experience is more of a "cowboy experience" - one person per horse. In
the raft, I am a bus driver. Much different scenario. I usually have
passengers. Most of that time, those passengers are my family. I have always
been struck by the big difference in how I think depending the craft I am in
and who I am with.
In the IK, I am responsible mostly for myself. In the raft, I am responsible
for my passengers. When those passengers are your buddies it is one thing.
When they are your family, it is a whole different game. I ran rivers with
with my buddies as a passengers that I am reluctant to run with my family. When
I was in the IK, there was this overwhelming attitude at times that whatever I
choose to do is okay as long as I was willing to accept the consequences.
I too hear the siren's song of the Belle Zabor. I sit on overlooks and look
down into rapids imagining how I would satisfy this evolutional desire to
engineer my course through the challenges of nature. I know if there is a way,
I could find it and come out the other end. I would enjoy the immense sense of
self satisfaction that comes with challenge, skill and a job well done.
Now, I try to look at every rapid the way I do when my family is in the boat
with me. There is more focus on nature, solitude, the land through which the
river runs and less on the river itself. I understand well, that even solo, my
family rides with me everywhere I go and I have a responsibility as a father,
husband, and child of my own parents to always make the wisest decision I can,
even if this means resisting the siren's song.
Chuck Yeager said "There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there
are no old-bold pilots." For me, old wins every time.
Blakely LaCroix
Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA
The best adventure is yet to come.
K1now
Wanted to share some of my own feelings on this. Several yrs ago I was riding
down to the Ocoee with a few friends and when we got *all* the way there, it
had been turned of for some reason I've forgotten. So, with a quick re-eval of
our options, we decided to go back and catch a run of the nantahala. I
remember being really bummed and expecting a fairly boring, nonchallenging day.
To my surprise, I had a blast!! I played my guts out, surfed, rolled and
never once was I nervous as I would have been back in those days on the
Ocoee.....I remember that day so vividly and learned that kayaking in my life
needs to be balanced. Not only do I want/need days to push my skill a bit and
challenge myself, but also days I can lay back and enjoy the colors, or the
mtns, or wildlife, or my friends.....
The last thing I want to share is that due to numerous neck surgeries and
fusions and my rolling hip being in my neck now, that I by necessity had to
tone it down alot. I don't do class V at all, there are class IV's I portage
or sneak if I don't like the consequences. I can't do creeks with micro-eddies
cuz my neck won't turn to see the line, and I evaluate every run and sometimes
each rapid and play place for safety for my neck given possible
consequences...I had to go from classIV-V paddling to none initially and
gradually work my way up to my current runs of classII-IV.
This has taken me years. I am not a martyr, nor do I want pity. I am simply
trying to express that rather than a conscious choice of toning it down (which
is preferable), my body forced me to. There are some days I wish I could do
better paddling, but mostly I feel so thankful and lucky and happy that I can
still paddle at all!! It is SO much more than adrenaline rushes (though I
still enjoy them too).
Maybe you want/need to give up paddling ww for a while or for forever. But
just maybe your question should be giving up harder runs for a while and just
plain have fun!!! One thing that helped me alot when I (couldn't) do harder
stuff was that I taught some of my women friends how to paddle. We'd do class
2-easy3 stuff. They were really "tentative" :.) and made me feel like I was
still running hard shit, lol. Plus, in comparison, *I* was the best
boater.....
Anyway, I hope that you will consider some of my points before letting your
boat get much drier and your paddle much more dusty...
Peg
Al Kubeluis wrote:
<SNIP>
>> My perspective has really changed. I still love ww, but believe ww is much
too
>> dangerous based on the continuous death reports posted here, not to mention
>> close calls of which only a small percentage are likely posted. So
>dangerous
>> that I do not encourage family or friends to take it up. About two years
>ago
>> a friend gave up ww because of the danger. I could not believe it. <SNIP>
Djbreese
talked to Lloyd this weekend. I've enjoyed paddling with you but I can
understand why you are considering scaling it back or even quitting. We were
running the lower gauley on Saturday and a kayaker who left about ten minutes
before we did got pinned a Koontz Flume and died. In another ironic note when
ran another rapid (not sure which one) Bob Korn, who was leading us down,
pointed out what he calls "Al's Rock". Then he told the story about how you
were pinned completely under water for about a minute. I also remember you
telling the story the first time that I met you. That has to have quite and
influence on any decision that you may make. By the way we had a great run
down the Lower Gauley. That's probably the most difficult water that I've been
on to date. I only swam once and that was because my skirt popped. I rolled
up but my boat was so full of water that I couldn't paddle it back to shore.
Don't be too hasty with you're decision though, kayaking beats motor boating
any day. David Breese
je...@plutotech.com
I have many of the same feelings that you do. At least one person who
I used to boat with regularly has thrown in the towel. I think it's
easy to feel that way, but ...
Perhaps every time you go with your regular group there is a class V
rapid, or two, or 10 to contemplate. Maybe you're sick of being
scared. Maybe you find yourself walking rapids that you know that you
could make the line for, you just don't feel like it.
These are natural feelings. Paddling does not have to be a macho
contest. What attracted you to the sport in the first place? Was it
the ability to travel in and enjoy places that can't be reached by
cars. Was it the meditative state that you can get into just carving
turns on that glassy wave?
So go ahead, take a step back, ride your bike. Go for a hike. Go
sailing. Whatever. But when you get the invitation from just the
right group, for just the right trip -- probably something non-
threatening in a beautiful canyon with good friends, you'll want to
dust that boat off again. You'll never get half of what your gear is
worth on the used market, so hold on to it. I can see why you'd want
to go from paddling 3 times a week to 3 times a year -- life's
priorities change. But don't go cold turkey. I can almost guarantee
you'll regret it.
Another suggestion: I bought one of the new generation of itty-bitty
playboats (a Gliss). I can have so much fun trying to master
cartwheeling on a big safe deep eddyline in this boat. There are so
many challenges in whitewater that don't involve getting scared or
worked. I think it's a lot more realistic to tone down rather that
drop out altogether.
Jeff
In article <37eca707$0$1...@mojo.crosslink.net>,
"Al Kubeluis" <kube...@crosslink.net> wrote:
> Hi Boaters,
> A year ago ww boating was all I wanted to do. Every opportunity I
went
> boating. With the drought and a move further away from ww, I have
hardly
> whitewatered in the last year, though I read rec.boats.paddle
regularly. My
> perspective has really changed. I still love ww, but believe ww is
much too
> dangerous based on the continuous death reports posted here, not to
mention
> close calls of which only a small percentage are likely posted. So
dangerous
> that I do not encourage family or friends to take it up. About two
years ago
> a friend gave up ww because of the danger. I could not believe it.
Now I'm
> on the verge of doing it, though probably won't totally. I am most
fortunate
> to have other water activities that I do regularly including sea
kayaking,
> sailing, and motor boating. And these satisfy more and more of my
craving to
> be on water. Just some thoughts.
> Al Kubeluis
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Al Kubeluis
k1cajun <k1c...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:37ECB828...@mindspring.com...
> Al Kubeluis wrote:
> >
> > A year ago ww boating was all I wanted to do. Every opportunity I
went
> > boating. With the drought and a move further away from ww, I have hardly
> > whitewatered in the last year,
>
> family last November put me out of the mood for the winter. Then along
> came the drought. Now, like you, I'm moving away - in my case to the
> flatlands and swamps of New Orleans (our home). But I still intend to
> keep paddling whitewater. I'll just be doing more weekend trips,
> instead of paddling after work. Luckily, the new job is going to have
> very flexible work schedules.
>
much too
> > dangerous based on the continuous death reports posted here, not to
mention
> > close calls of which only a small percentage are likely posted.
>
> on what you read here of accident reports. You gotta remember that this
> is a national (sorry Wilko - INTERNATIONAL !) newsgroup. There's a
> lotta people out there. And WW paddling is exploding in popularity. If
> you were to take into account the number of paddlers, the number of
> paddler/trips, and the number of paddler/trip/miles, you might be
> surprised to learn that the odds are pretty damn good. And each paddler
> can improve their odds by not overstepping their skill level.
>
> But you do have a point about the unknown totals of close calls. On the
> other hand, everyone has a different definition of a close call, whereas
> we would all agree on what defines a death.
>
> The thing is that anytime something is reported on a large scale, it
> changes the perception of frequency. Take earthquakes, for instance.
> Lately you hear about them on the news like it's some kind of trend.
> I've heard some doomsayers talk about how the number of quakes is
> increasing as we approach the end of the 20th century (which is Dec 31,
> 2000 by the way, not 1999). But earthquakes have probably been just as
> frequent over human time, just that you couldn't hear about them as
> quickly before radio and TV. Over geological time, they are decreasing
> as the planet cools.
>
> I've always felt that the upward trend in river deaths, may just be a
> temporary spike. Like the trend of major hurricanes recently - some
> years are bad, some good. There has to be a year with the most
> something.
>
> > that I do not encourage family or friends to take it up. About two years
ago
> > a friend gave up ww because of the danger. I could not believe it. Now
I'm
> > on the verge of doing it, though probably won't totally.
>
> looking forward to her running class 5. She doesn't have the desire,
> and it lets me enjoy the river without watching over her. And I do plan
> on trying to get my brother hooked on it, since I think he would love it
> and he's a great long distance driver - a perfect road trip paddling
> partner.
>
> > to have other water activities that I do regularly including sea
kayaking,
> > sailing, and motor boating. And these satisfy more and more of my
craving to
> > be on water.
>
Al Kubeluis
You wrote "I understand well, that even solo, my family rides with me
everywhere I go and I have a responsibility as a father, husband, and child
of my own parents to always make the wisest decision I can, even if this
means resisting the siren's song."
Thanks.
Al Kubeluis
Blakely LaCroix <rail...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990925135114...@ngol03.aol.com...
> In article <37eca707$0$1...@mojo.crosslink.net>, "Al Kubeluis"
> <kube...@crosslink.net> writes:
>
> >Hi Boaters,
> > A year ago ww boating was all I wanted to do. Every opportunity I
went
> >boating. With the drought and a move further away from ww, I have hardly
> >whitewatered in the last year, though I read rec.boats.paddle regularly.
My
> >perspective has really changed. I still love ww, but believe ww is much
too
> >dangerous based on the continuous death reports posted here, not to
mention
> >close calls of which only a small percentage are likely posted. So
dangerous
> >that I do not encourage family or friends to take it up. About two years
ago
> >a friend gave up ww because of the danger. I could not believe it. Now
I'm
> >on the verge of doing it, though probably won't totally. I am most
fortunate
> >to have other water activities that I do regularly including sea
kayaking,
> >sailing, and motor boating. And these satisfy more and more of my craving
to
> >be on water. Just some thoughts.
> >Al Kubeluis
> >
>
Kathryn Streletzky
not the same. That the river was a killer with a pure heart, and that all the
motivations I ever held towards whitewater would still be found in the river
once the gloom passed.
I felt the gloom again on Saturday, as members of our group strugged in vain to
assist to extricate the body of the young kayaker that was pinned heads down
under the big undercut rock at Koontz Flume on the Lower Gauley.
We had a set our shuttle so that ALL of our cars were at the takeout. So I had
to paddle on, as did the members of our group. The TRPC members who had
"adopted" the lone WV kayaker who had approached them at the put in walked off
the river having lost him there. We paddled off glumly - I ran into some
friends and said that I felt like going back to the Staircase (local class 2
run) and staying there. But somewhere during the run, the river goddess
reached out and lightened my (our) hearts and allowed us to enjoy the run.
Such is the magic of the river for me. Maybe your magic is found elsewhere,
Al, but if you want to go paddle a river sometime (Staircase?) give me a
holler.
- Mothra
Peik Borud
Al Kubeluis <kube...@crosslink.net> wrote:
<37eca707$0$1...@mojo.crosslink.net>...
> Hi Boaters,
> A year ago ww boating was all I wanted to do.<<<<snip>>>>
About two years ago
> a friend gave up ww because of the danger. I could not believe it. Now I'm
> on the verge of doing it, though probably won't totally.
Hi from Peik:
I'm getting old and careful too; but I'm not gonna stop living, just do those
fun things at a lower level than the young hotshots. On the club trips I've
found that there are lots of nice people among those doing the lower
grade sections. And I can have fun on the river when the tough guys
stay home cause the water is too low....
See the "down-scaling" threads for more thoughts that may keep us
paddling while growing older. WW doesn't have to be dangerous.
--
Peik Borud
Norway
peik(at)online.no
Ralph E.Thayer, PhD,AICP
and even if the adrenaline starts pumping when seeing a good ww river,
I resist the temptation. FWIW RT
Al Kubeluis wrote:
>
> Hi Boaters,
> A year ago ww boating was all I wanted to do. Every opportunity I went
> boating. With the drought and a move further away from ww, I have hardly
> whitewatered in the last year, though I read rec.boats.paddle regularly. My
> perspective has really changed. I still love ww, but believe ww is much too
> dangerous based on the continuous death reports posted here, not to mention
> close calls of which only a small percentage are likely posted. So dangerous
> that I do not encourage family or friends to take it up. About two years ago
> a friend gave up ww because of the danger. I could not believe it. Now I'm
yakmom
>
> After Scott Bristow died, a friend told me that the sun would shine again just
> not the same. That the river was a killer with a pure heart, and that all the
> motivations I ever held towards whitewater would still be found in the river
> once the gloom passed.
>
> I felt the gloom again on Saturday, as members of our group strugged in vain to
> assist to extricate the body of the young kayaker that was pinned heads down
> under the big undercut rock at Koontz Flume on the Lower Gauley.
It has been a difficult year in this regard- and 12 months have not yet
passed. 3 whitewater deaths have touched very close to our home - Scott
Bristow's, Ben Stone's and now Chris Malamisura's. The rbp threads on
death and appropriate responses...why is this newsgoup obsessessed with
death etc - have unexpectantly taken on a deeply personal meaning.
Heather, our 15 YO daughter, was with Kathy, Richard, Andreas and others
in the MCC group minutes after the accident. She too is wondering if
"the sun will shine again".
How do those present at an accident or in the aftermath go about
integrating the expereince into their lives and then moving on? I
suppose there are as many differant ways as their people......but I was
wondering if anyone cares to share "how the sun shined for them again".
sheila
Julie Keller
yakmom wrote in message <37F00E...@erols.com>...
>How do those present at an accident or in the aftermath go about
>integrating the expereince into their lives and then moving on? I
>suppose there are as many differant ways as their people......but I was
>wondering if anyone cares to share "how the sun shined for them again".
The sun shined for me again after Scott's death on the Big South Fork of the
Cumberland. A little over three months after Scott died, Joe and I set out
on a paddling trip to West Virginia and the DC area. Just like we did with
Scott at Thanksgiving. This time Joe and I were chased by cold and snow
from West Virginia to D.C. We visited the Great Falls and then decided the
water and weather were better in the southeast and headed toward home. When
we got to Tennessee the water was wonderful and the weather was warm and
sunny. Clear Creek had 3000 cfs and so did the Big South Fork. These were
both rivers that I knew well and was very comfortable paddling. I had a
nice day on Clear Creek followed by a wonderful day on the BSF. I stopped
at Double Drop; remembered that Scott never got a chance to paddle the BSF;
and built a rock cairn.
Julie Keller
Bijili E
joyful paddling.
BijiliE
John William Kuthe
>How do those present at an accident or in the aftermath go about
>integrating the expereince into their lives and then moving on? I
>suppose there are as many differant ways as their people......but I was
>wondering if anyone cares to share "how the sun shined for them again".
"Oh no! He's rearing his ugly head again!" Is this what some are
thinking? Well, yep, I am, and it is because the question was asked.
In 1995, my brother Bob, nephew Paul (Bob's son, then 10 or 11 YO) and
I were boating the Arkansas River (Fractions) for our first time on
western WW. The short story is that Bob had a heart attack while
paddling, eddied out, got out and died on the shore. Paul found him,
as Paul had swam upstream form where Bob died. (I swam upstream on
the opposite shore, and didn't hear of Bob's death until I had hitched
a ride to the takeout.)
This was the worst river trip Paul and I had ever been on, and have
ever been on since. I hated what had happened. It sucked the worse!!
My brother and I were 15 years apart in age, thus did not "sibble",
but had just begin, over the past two or three years, to really get to
know each other. And Paul, heck, he was only 10 or 11, and this was
his FATHER, whom he was now without! Paul was Bob's canoe partner,
until Paul discovered kayaks, and Bob knew he had lost his canoeing
partner, and bought them both Dancer kayaks and learned kayaking.
Paul and I went back to the campsite that evening, alone, without our
"third". While sitting at the fire (which we made with some pithy
purchased pine that they sell in CO for firewood), the camp host came
by to say "hi". He asked where that other guy was (we had met and
chatted with him the day before). I told him that Bob had died on the
river that day of a heart attack. The campsite host was floored in
disbelief! I assured him this was true (in no "tactful" truth-hedging
terms), and he quickly realized I was telling him the truth.
Of course, he didn't know what to say, but then, there is really
nothing anyone can say to assuage your anxieties when you've lost a
brother and a father. We assured him that his sympathies were
appreciated, and that was all he could really give us.
Well, we were wrong! He excused himself, and when he returned after a
short time, he brought several pieces of oak firewood and said, "I
keep these as my personal stash", and stoked our fire with them. He
joined us in front of the much more hearty and warm fire, and we
talked about a great many things, none of which I can remember
specifically. Heck, I don't even remember his name, but that's not
really important. The important thing is that we were all *there*,
with each other, for each other, and in memory of the very recently
departed, dear soul that we had just that day lost.
The next day, the sun shined as brightly as it ever has as Paul and I
met his mother and her father who had just flown to Buena Vista when
they heard the bad news. We did all of the necessary arrangements,
called all the folks back home in St Louis and told them all the sad
story, etc. Then we drove back to St Louis, and spent the next week
engaged in further "arrangements".
Paul told me at some point that he had the thought of giving up
kayaking, as you can imagine. But he said immediately after thinking
that, that he considered, "What would my dad want me to do?", and he
realized that this was not a good reason to give up kayaking, which he
loved so dearly. It's a good thing Paul was so smart, because he has
improved to the point where he's better than his dad and I will (or
would have) *ever* been!
Every year, Paul and I go back to CO, and we always kayak the
Fractions. And we stop and visit the eddy where Bob got out and died
on the shore, where Paul found him that fateful day in 1995. Why? We
don't know, just because I guess. It's what people do. Then we
skittle off to finf yet another wave to surf, or another stern squirt
spot, so Paul can show me how to boat.
And if Bob were there physically, Paul would be showing *him* how to
boat, too!
--
John Kuthe, aka cec.wustl.edu@jwk1, St. Louis, Missouri | MWA Homepage: |
First Job of Government: Protect people from government.| home.i1.net/ |
Second Job of Government: Protect people from each other.| ~akravetz/mwa.html |
It must *never* become the job of government to protect people from themselves!
riverman
John William Kuthe wrote:
(snip sensitive story about a terrible day and a brothers death)
Paul and I went back to the campsite that evening, alone, without our
> "third". While sitting at the fire (which we made with some pithy
> purchased pine that they sell in CO for firewood), the camp host came
> by to say "hi". He asked where that other guy was (we had met and
> chatted with him the day before). I told him that Bob had died on the
> river that day of a heart attack. The campsite host was floored in
> disbelief! I assured him this was true (in no "tactful" truth-hedging
> terms), and he quickly realized I was telling him the truth.
>
> Of course, he didn't know what to say, but then, there is really
> nothing anyone can say to assuage your anxieties when you've lost a
> brother and a father. We assured him that his sympathies were
> appreciated, and that was all he could really give us.
I apologize ahead of time for the next paragraph, John.
Considering your own posts on the other thread, think about how it would have felt
just then for you and Paul if the camp host had said "Well, jeeze, man! The guy
was probably fat and out of shape anyway. Don't be too surprised that he bought it,
I'm sure you expected it. Comon, face reality for chrissakes." and then told you
how facts were facts and get over it.
I think you realize that he gave you some personal space and human support with
kindness, and he didn't have to. But that he did was significant enough to make it
into your tale. Being sensitive means looking at a situation from the other
person's perspective, or at least not forcing them to have to see it from
yours...not while the event is fresh, anyway.
My condolences for your loss: how has your nephew coped? It must have been a very
tender situation for him.
riverman
John William Kuthe
today I composed a long and heartfelt email reply, and NOW I see the
NG post!!
Pick one or the other, riverman!! I'm not retyping that whole schpiel
here, now!!
In article <37F15A2D...@american.hasharon.k12.il>,
riverman <mb...@american.hasharon.k12.il> wrote:
>
>
>John William Kuthe wrote:
>
>(snip sensitive story about a terrible day and a brothers death)
[CHOP!]
riverman
John William Kuthe wrote:
> Oh jees! Yesterday, I replied to the post, *then* got the email, now
> today I composed a long and heartfelt email reply, and NOW I see the
> NG post!!
>
> Pick one or the other, riverman!! I'm not retyping that whole schpiel
> here, now!!
>
No worries. Here it is.
From: John William Kuthe <jw...@cec.wustl.edu>
Subject: Re: Giving Up Whitewater - Thoughts
To: mb...@american.hasharon.k12.il (riverman)
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 10:41:33 -0500 (CDT)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24 PGP3 *ALPHA*]
>I apologize ahead of time for the next paragraph, John.
No worries, dude!
>Considering your own posts on the other thread, think about how it would have felt
>just then for you and Paul if the camp host had said "Well, jeeze, man! The guy
>was probably fat and out of shape anyway. Don't be too surprised that he bought
it,
>I'm sure you expected it. Comon, face reality for chrissakes." and then told you
>how facts were facts and get over it.
Hee hee! Well, he wasn't fat, but he did:
1. Not exercise regularly
2. Smoke
3. Eat way to much greasy food
4. Possibly had high blood pressure
5. Not see the Dr about a chronic shoulder pain he'd had for years
and any other number of careless, stupid things he could have changed
that might have resulted in hin NOT croaking that day on the river.
And don;t think one thing I have always felt is being pissed off at
Bob for screwing me out of a brother and paddling bud, as well as all
the rest of us, for everything he was to us.
Sorry to surprise you, dude, but *I* can take that "callous,
insensitive" crap and not skip a beat! Doncha think some of the
things we all talked about was exactly those kinds of things??!!
>I think you realize that he gave you some personal space and human support with
>kindness, and he didn't have to. But that he did was significant enough to make
it
>into your tale. Being sensitive means looking at a situation from the other
>person's perspective, or at least not forcing them to have to see it from
>yours...not while the event is fresh, anyway.
Yeah, and that was about as fresh as you can get! (Well, not really,
those kayakers, below mentioned, that Paul flagged down were as fresh
as you can get.) But actually, this campsite host was just one of the
many people who played a role in the events as they happened, over
that days subsequent to Bob's death.
One of my fave moments came after we were back in STL, 4 or 5 days
after. Paul's sister Erika (21ish) was looking very harried after 4
or 5 solid days of woe, so, possibly callously but not at all
insensitively, I asked her to go see a rocknroll band with me that
night. She agreed, as I had correctly assessed the sitch: she was
tired of bumming out and needed some release! We went to see this
band, drank a few beers, and I actually got her to get up and dance
with me too! It was great, we had a bloody good time!
Life is too short to wallow morosely for too long.
>My condolences for your loss: how has your nephew coped? It must have been a very
>tender situation for him.
He coped very well, especially for someone only 10 or 11. He was the
one who came upon Bob after he hiked down the riverbank, and then
flagged down a couple of passing kayakers to elicit help. One of the
kayakers hiked up to the road, flagged down a car /w/ a cell phone,
called and got "search and rescue" out there.
Paul is an exceptional
human being, he knows there are more important things to do than
panic, wallow in the house of worship of your own feelings, etc. I and
MANY of our local boating community (The MWA, or Missouri Whitewater
Assoc) congratulated him on his ability to "handle" the sitch when it
happened.
And I held him in my arms as he cried, when the police brought him
back to the station, and that's when I knew, for sure, what had
happened. That was the moment he needed tenderness. But he had the
necessary knowlege to know that tenderness is NOT the only important
thing, sometimes getting necessary shit done is more important, and
crying can be left for later.
<BTO>
Is it asking too much to have some respect for those who are obviously
experiencing some pain at the loss of a fellow boater? It's really nice for
you that you have such an iron-tight grip on your feelings and emotions.
It's really a shame that people keep insisting on spilling their guts (and
emotions) out all over a perfectly good newsgroup, isn't it? But is it
asking too much for you to acknowledge that people grieve differently and
that there is no "right" or "wrong" way?
My father died a year and a half ago, was not boating-related, but was
possibly preventable by quicker/different action on his part. There was
plenty of hand-wringing and oh-what-a-shame. There was lots of thought of
why he had chosen the path he had and much introspection as to what could be
learned if in a similar situation. And there was plenty of sober, honest
thought and discussion on who he really was (good & bad) and the situation
surrounding his death. And I did pretty well at keeping my little emotions
in check- never "lost it" at work or any other "inappropriate" place to the
point that I couldn't pull it together and carry on. I would consider this
unusual. I also did not have to be subjected to the callous opinions of
anyone who didn't really know my dad and who didn't really care about my
feelings. Maybe that was because of my choice of whom to converse with on
this topic . It didn't exactly appear on any newsgroups.
My point: I can empathize with those who are going through a rough time due
to a paddler-related death. I respect their need to interact with the rest
of the paddling community in an attempt to come to terms with the situation
(even if it doesn't make for tantalizing reading for me.) And I realize
that you are entitled to your opinions and contributions to this newsgroup.
But is it so hard to respect those who obviously just need a little support
at the moment?
Tanya Talbert
<BTO>
Thanks for relating the experience of losing your brother. I appreciated
hearing your perspective on it.
Tanya Talbert
LittleBeth
chap...@erols.com wrote:
> Kathryn Streletzky wrote:
> >
> > After Scott Bristow died, a friend told me that the sun would shine
again just
And so it will, but as you know very well, tragedies such as these will
always have a shadow in your heart.
> Heather, our 15 YO daughter, was with Kathy, Richard, Andreas and
others
> in the MCC group minutes after the accident. She too is wondering if
> "the sun will shine again".
Give Heather my love, and let her know I'm thinking of her and praying
for her.
> How do those present at an accident or in the aftermath go about
> integrating the expereince into their lives and then moving on? I
> suppose there are as many differant ways as their people......but I
was
> wondering if anyone cares to share "how the sun shined for them
again".
>
> sheila
>
Being on the river is therapy for me. I miss Ed every moment of every
day, but I go on because of Amy and my faith. I believe that there is
something only I was meant to do, and it's not finished yet. I am
proud and grateful that my 9 yo dau. Amy has tried a kayak and loves it-
-she too finds her peace on the water. We are going to take her
training slowly, and carefully, but I will let her paddle. Blake's
thoughts in his post about being more cautious for his family echo my
feelings precisely. At least on the water, I am as close to Ed as I'll
ever be while I remain here on earth.
My doctor told me today that I should try a different sport, as my
back problems are worse because I've lost my roll and evidently have
injured myself more trying to get it back. I will not accept that. The
last doctor that told me I'd never be able to paddle was totally amazed
when I did learn, and did roll it. I will continue in whitewater.
Maybe not at the level I'd like, but somehow. Danger is always
present. Just because we don't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there.
For me, the sun will shine again, and joy will return to my life
abundantly, because I did not and will not give up. I won't give up
the sport I love, or the spirit of those I've met through boating. I
may adjust the way I paddle or the rivers I do. Certainly, I'll always
be different than I was. But a friend told me that she had never
dreamed she'd find the life she has now when she was standing in the
ashes of her old life. For her, it took 3 years. It may take me
longer, or less time. But I know she is right, and some day, I will
see the dawn of true happiness. I don't think it is correct to blame
the sport for the accidents of the few (numerically speaking) who
neglect precautions. I wouldn't stop driving because of the accidents
I've had--far more than on whitewater! In the end, though, if you
choose to do something, you have to be able to live with the
consequences of failure and fate. Perhaps some people should quit,
because their hesitation and fearfulness will cause problems for them
as well as those they boat with.
Beth Thompson
--
Live as though every day were the last, love as
though there will never be another moment
together.
John William Kuthe
>John Kuthe;
>Is it asking too much to have some respect for those who are obviously
>experiencing some pain at the loss of a fellow boater?
I am sorry for any grief I've caused anyone who's wrestling with the
anguish that surely can come to any of us (me too), at the loss of a
loved one, a friend, or anyone. But writing long flowery apologies os
not me, nor is a great many other common human practices relating to
negative emotional states, as many have most likely gleaned from my
babblings.
>It's really nice for
>you that you have such an iron-tight grip on your feelings and emotions.
>It's really a shame that people keep insisting on spilling their guts (and
>emotions) out all over a perfectly good newsgroup, isn't it? But is it
>asking too much for you to acknowledge that people grieve differently and
>that there is no "right" or "wrong" way?
I acknowlege it, I respect it, but I cannot sit by idly while *I* have
what I consider to be valuable insights into this whole issue.
Isn't that what Usenet, the Internet and everything really all about?
Sharing useful information (and entertainment too)?
>My father died a year and a half ago, was not boating-related, but was
>possibly preventable by quicker/different action on his part. There was
>plenty of hand-wringing and oh-what-a-shame. There was lots of thought of
>why he had chosen the path he had and much introspection as to what could be
>learned if in a similar situation. And there was plenty of sober, honest
>thought and discussion on who he really was (good & bad) and the situation
>surrounding his death.
Exactly, and we all do that when someone we know dies. If it's an
older adult, we tend to not question "why them?" as much, if it's a
child whom we'd normally expect to live a lot longer, or the person is
the victim of an accident, we ask "why them" a lot more. And if it's
a suicide, then there are some unique questions we anguish over in
that sitch.
But it is the asking of these questions, and the sharing of all our
experiences surrounding a person's death that brings us all to a
better understanding of how people deal with this rather gravitious
situation. And what people are down on me about is that they do not
perceive me as having what they consider a sufficient amount of
empathy for someone *in* that situation, right now.
Believe me, no one knows the amount of empathy I am capable of, and
I'm not going to delineate all the losses I've personally experienced
in life, just to make y'all go "Oh that poor man!". You'll will all
just have to take my word for it (unless you want to talk via private
email, then I'll share.)
>And I did pretty well at keeping my little emotions
>in check- never "lost it" at work or any other "inappropriate" place to the
>point that I couldn't pull it together and carry on. I would consider this
>unusual.
Yes, that probably *is* unusual, but *I* admire it, think it's a good
thing that you were able to function adequately where necessary, and
keep to expressing your emotions to venues and sitches where they were
more appropriate. Does anyone disagree? I'd like to hear why.
And I think it's a shame that anyone would think this "unusual" too.
>I also did not have to be subjected to the callous opinions of
>anyone who didn't really know my dad and who didn't really care about my
>feelings. Maybe that was because of my choice of whom to converse with on
>this topic . It didn't exactly appear on any newsgroups.
Here's a question I post to anyone readling this, who might know:
When did I ever disparage in any way, anyone who died while paddling?
I can't recall ever saying anything like this. I most assurely *did*
hurt some feelings of some folks who were posting stuff to the NG,
talking about how *they* felt and thought about things, but I'm not
particularly sorry about that, nor do I think *anyone* on the Internet
should be. The Net's public place, we (who have access) are all
entitled to be anyway we really choose to be. I have not been many of
the evil ways I have seen on the Net, and I at least take
responsibility for what I say, and do not retreat from responding to
my detractors, I do not curse at them or imply heinous things about
them (too much).
And no, I don't want the Net to be a "nicer" place, i.e. reduced to a
child-safe 100% PC Sesame Street medium. I prefer an adult forum
where matute intelligent people can feely exchange thoughts and ideas.
[snip]
>But is it so hard to respect those who obviously just need a little support
>at the moment?
No, it's not hard to do that. But how am I to know who is in a
fragile emotional state, and who is just a casual passerby? I can't.
No one can. So we draw the best conclusion from what they write, and
respond to it thusly, just like I;m doing here. (And the reason I'm
posting this rather than replying via email is because I *tried* to
reply, but the email address opooed up as "BTO", which is an invalid
SMTP address>)
<BTO>
Thanks for an honest reply. Sorry you could not send that over email, my
husband prefers to have the
account set up that way. I will put my email address in the body of posts
in the future, if I think they may
draw some comments that are better off not aired over the net. BTW, I do
not mind that you did post
your reply.
<I can't recall ever saying anything like this. I most assurely *did*
hurt some feelings of some folks who were posting stuff to the NG,
talking about how *they* felt and thought about things, but I'm not
particularly sorry about that, nor do I think *anyone* on the Internet
should be. The Net's public place, we (who have access) are all
entitled to be anyway we really choose to be. I have not been many of
the evil ways I have seen on the Net, and I at least take
responsibility for what I say, and do not retreat from responding to
my detractors, I do not curse at them or imply heinous things about
them (too much).>
I see your point, and I respect you for engaging in an evenhanded dialogue
with people whose views
don't match your own. And unlike a lot of what I've seen on this newsgroup,
when you do disagree with
someone, you don't retreat to petty name-calling.
<And no, I don't want the Net to be a "nicer" place, i.e. reduced to a
child-safe 100% PC Sesame Street medium. I prefer an adult forum
where matute intelligent people can feely exchange thoughts and ideas.>
I agree, and perhaps am one of many who needs to realize that not everybody
is going to agree with me
and that perhaps cordiality isn't always conducive to thought-provoking
discourse.
I owe you a second chance, and appreciate your consideration in replying on
the newsgrouup. You are
welcome to contact me via email, if you wish.
Tanya Talbert
bt...@bellsouth.net
ps I guess we're even- responding to your post didn't go through to your
email account, either.
Mary Malmros
PMccune647 <pmccu...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>I really feel that the boating community as a whole needs to back off a notch
>and accept this approach, rather than focusing on the upper limits.
>The risks just aren't worth it.
I think that we get a lot of food for thought when people talk about the
reasoning behind their own risk-assessment process and decision-making.
As far as how we digest that food for thought, I don't think it's
something we can do "as a whole". We all digest it a little differently.
Perhaps what we can usefully do as a community is to encourage the
process of thinking things over: not navel-gazing, not nit-picking,
but periodically asking yourself, "Is this still what I want to be
doing?" and listening for the answer. Dunno about anybody else, but
I find that that's not an easy question -- not when I am talking about
something that I have invested a lot of time in. If you spend fifteen
years becoming an accomplished surgeon, or honing your software
engineering skills, or getting your PhD in anthropology, or learning
to paddle whitewater...and then all of a sudden you started asking
yourself, "Do I really want to do this?" and the answer started
feeling like "yes"...horrors! Just think, you would have WASTED all
that time! And that is unthinkable. Ya see, that's the mindset that
I struggle with, and struggle to escape from, because it's been so
limiting. And for me, the first step is to put less focus on
long-term goals and more focus on short-term goals and quality of
life. Right now, I'm having tremendous fun paddling whitewater.
Some day I may not want to any more, or I may want to but decide that
it's a higher price than I want to pay. I think that as long as I
focus on whether I'm having fun now, the question, "Do I really want
to do this?" won't be as wrenching when it comes. Hell, it has come
already, after getting beat on a river or when feeling uncomfortably
challenged, or just at the start of something that felt like a bad
day in the making. It isn't wrenching as long as I remember that
the past is already paid for. I can't waste that time -- it's already
been and gone. As long as I make sure that the time is worthwhile
as I'm spending it, I figure I'll be okay.
--
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros Very Small Being mal...@shore.net
"I would not exchange the sorrows of my heart
for the joys of the multitude"
Johnny Utah
My belated condolences to you both.
Erik Lyde-Stad
John William Kuthe wrote:
>
> In article <37F00E...@erols.com>, yakmom <chap...@erols.com> wrote:
> >How do those present at an accident or in the aftermath go about
> >integrating the expereince into their lives and then moving on? I
> >suppose there are as many differant ways as their people......but I was
> >wondering if anyone cares to share "how the sun shined for them again".
>
> "Oh no! He's rearing his ugly head again!" Is this what some are
> thinking? Well, yep, I am, and it is because the question was asked.
>
> In 1995, my brother Bob, nephew Paul (Bob's son, then 10 or 11 YO) and
> I were boating the Arkansas River (Fractions) for our first time on
> western WW. The short story is that Bob had a heart attack while
> paddling, eddied out, got out and died on the shore. Paul found him,
> as Paul had swam upstream form where Bob died. (I swam upstream on
> the opposite shore, and didn't hear of Bob's death until I had hitched
> a ride to the takeout.)
>
> This was the worst river trip Paul and I had ever been on, and have
> ever been on since. I hated what had happened. It sucked the worse!!
> My brother and I were 15 years apart in age, thus did not "sibble",
> but had just begin, over the past two or three years, to really get to
> know each other. And Paul, heck, he was only 10 or 11, and this was
> his FATHER, whom he was now without! Paul was Bob's canoe partner,
> until Paul discovered kayaks, and Bob knew he had lost his canoeing
> partner, and bought them both Dancer kayaks and learned kayaking.
>
> Paul and I went back to the campsite that evening, alone, without our
> "third". While sitting at the fire (which we made with some pithy
> purchased pine that they sell in CO for firewood), the camp host came
> by to say "hi". He asked where that other guy was (we had met and
> chatted with him the day before). I told him that Bob had died on the
> river that day of a heart attack. The campsite host was floored in
> disbelief! I assured him this was true (in no "tactful" truth-hedging
> terms), and he quickly realized I was telling him the truth.
>
> Of course, he didn't know what to say, but then, there is really
> nothing anyone can say to assuage your anxieties when you've lost a
> brother and a father. We assured him that his sympathies were
> appreciated, and that was all he could really give us.
>
> --
> John Kuthe, aka cec.wustl.edu@jwk1, St. Louis, Missouri | MWA Homepage: |
> First Job of Government: Protect people from government.| home.i1.net/ |
> Second Job of Government: Protect people from each other.| ~akravetz/mwa.html |
> It must *never* become the job of government to protect people from themselves!
--
Life is short Paddle hard
SYOTR
Johnny Utah
http://members.home.net/wwpaddler/vkchome.htm
http://members.home.net/wwpaddler/Utah2.htm