Interracial Dating FAQ (repost)
Alan Hu
Judging form the volume lately, looks like it's time to repost this.
--Alan Hu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: Asian/Caucasian dating (LONG response, FAQ)
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In article <x> y@z () writes:
>I was just wondering (as non-offensively as I possibly can wonder) what
>you all (men and women, asians and non-asians) think about asians going
>out with caucasians (by "going out" I mean on a date or dating regular-
>ly). I want views on what motivating factors may contribute to this
>choice, which may or may not include stereotypes (on both sides). Also,
>I want to know if in YOUR opinion this is more prevalent with Asian
>Women/Caucasian men, or Asian Men/Caucasian Women.
>
>NOTE: I am pretty sure this thread has been covered before (it is BOUND
> to come up sooner or later), but I am pretty new to news in
> general, so I hope you folks just bear with me. Thanks.
>
>I have my views on this subject, but they differ according to my mood.
>That's why I want to get some input from you all. I hope to gain some
>insight into what the prevalent opinions are out there. Remember,
>whether you are asian or not, guy or girl, please give me what YOU think
>(hopefully from your experiences and from your friends' experiences).
>
>-Andrew
>
>I think a disclaimer is supposed to be here, so I'll just say that this
>company has no knowledge of what I'm writing, so don't blame them.
AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!
umphf. Excuse me. I feel much better now... :-)
Anyway, no offense to Andrew. (Welcome to the net!) It's just that this
is a subject that refuses to die, and it always brings out all sorts of
racist stereotypes, demeaning prejudices, obnoxious comments, and
brainless posts (as well as wonderful, reasonable people like myself :-) ).
OK so, here's a first crack at what will probably become my standard
response to these questions.
0. Glossary of Abbreviations: AAM = Asian-American Male,
AAF = Asian-American Female, WM and WF are similar for white folk.
Note that we are talking about Asian Americans, since this
is soc.culture.asian.american, so we won't worry about things like
Third World economic development here.
1. What do you all think about interracial relationships? (Frequently,
this is a polite phrasing of "Don't you think it sucks that all ____
only go out with _____?")
OK, let's spell this out. There is nothing wrong whatsoever
with an interracial relationship, as long as the relationship
is healthy in general. It's far, far more important that the
participants are honest, trustworthy, loyal, etc., etc., that
they care about each other, that they communicate, and so forth.
Race should be an irrelevant triviality, as irrelevant as the
number of letters in a person's name or the Mersenne-primality
of one's birthdate. If two people are really into hockey,
ancient Chinese literature, and neo-Marxist theology, why should
their respective races matter at all?
2. So why do people always make a big deal about interracial relationships?
People make a big deal because people are racist. People
make all sorts of assumptions about culture and personality
based on superficial ethnic observations. Furthermore,
nothing brings out racism the way interracial dating does.
My experience, both first hand and indirect, indicates that
it's usually men of the same race as the woman in the interracial
relationship that get the most upset. A plausible explanation
for this behavior is that American (and Asian and Latin and
European and Islamic) culture is VERY male-dominated, so much
so that men are socialized into thinking of women as property
to be obtained, kept, and used. Thus, interracial dating
pisses people off because one of THEM is stealing OUR women.
3. Wait a second, you (the author of this post) are always whining about
interracial relationships. So you're admitting you're racist?
Well, yes, I'm still racist, but I'm trying hard not to be.
But interracial relationships is not an area that's problematic
for me. See Question 1. What many of the old-timers on s.c.a.a
are talking about is the disparity between the number of AAF/WM
couples versus AAM/WF couples. According to the San Francisco
Chronicle/Examiner (Sunday _Image_ supplement, December 2, 1990)
[Look folks! Real live hard data, not just someone's anecdotal
evidence.] AAF/WM marriages outnumber AAM/WF marriages by 4 to 1
in San Francisco. In Sacramento the ratio is 8 to 1.
So what, you may ask. Well, anyone with statistical training
knows to look for explanations anytime something deviates from
randomness. If someone reports that a whopping 86% of people
born on Tuesdays marry people not born on Tuesdays, I don't
go looking for birthdate-based-self-hatred problems among
Tuesday's children to explain this outmarriage rate; one seventh
of the population was born on Tuesdays, so an outmarriage rate
near 6/7 = 86% suggests no birthdate-based influence. Similarly,
if a community has a 10% Asian-American population, you'd expect
to see an outmarriage rate of around 90%. The actual rate appears
lower, suggesting that Asian Americans are not well-integrated into
the rest of society, that Asian Americans prefer to stick together,
or that being Asian American correlates with some other causative
factor, like shared life experiences, for example.
Given that the male/female ratio in the population is roughly
1 to 1, the 4:1 and 8:1 ratios cited above deviate significantly
from randomness. Thus, we reject the null hypothesis and search
for explanations.
4. That's easy to explain -- Asian guys are too sexist, or Asian guys
look feminine, or Asian guys have language and social-skill
problems, or Asian guys are geeks, or Asian guys are wimpy, or
Asian guys have small penes. Besides, it makes sense that
Asian girls are in heavy demand, since they're oh so sexy
and nice and, like ultra-feminine, and they know how to treat
a man right, and if there are any hot Oriental I mean Asian
babes out there, please send me some email, 'cause I'm a really
nice guy. Right?
Wrong. These are some of the standard lame things people
say whenever this topic comes up. Let's deal with these one
at a time. "Asian guys are too sexist." Well, granted Asian
culture is more overtly sexist than modern American culture,
but we're talking about Asian Americans here, so this is irrelevant,
except that the general confusion between Asians and Asian Americans
means that these stereotypes haunt Asian-American men. Personally, I
know plenty of sexist and non-sexist men. They come in all sizes
and colors. The real problem is that MEN are too sexist, but
that doesn't explain the lopsided dating ratio. "Asian guys look
feminine, or Asian guys are geeks, or Asian guys are wimpy."
White guys who look "feminine", geeky, or wimpy abound.
Anecdotally, the WM I see in WM/AAF couples are not usually body-
building testerone-crazed types anyway. And there are plenty
of Asian-American netters who are huge, muscular, and have threatened
to beat the shit out of anyone who insults them like this.
Again, it appears that these are not real problems, but the
*perception* of a problem may be. "Asian guys lack necessary
language and social skills." Again, this is irrelevant, since
we're discussing Asian Americans. "Asian guys have small penes."
Sex researchers have repeatedly documented that penile size has
no relevance to sexual satisfaction. Fixation on penile size
appears to be more of a trans-pubescent adolescent male fantasy,
rather than anything significant in social settings. "Oriental
girls are meek and submissive and treat a man right and know
all sorts of exotic Oriental sex secrets to keep their man happy."
This is the classic stereotype. It needs no further refutation
than going out and actually meeting some real Asian-American women
and being willing to see them as human beings rather than as
sex toys that also cook and do your laundry. "I'm looking for
an Asian-American penpal." These usually come from men with
non-Asian-appearing last names. Some people are direct enough
to ask "Where are the women?" I've actually responded to a couple
people who weren't overt in specifying the gender of the replies
they were searching for. None has even bothered to acknowledge
my email. I wonder if they'd be really friendly if my name had
been "Ellen Hu" instead. Given that I'm root on my workstation,
I might run an experiment someday...
5. OK, those are stupid things. What are some reasonable explanations?
There's two I remember offhand as liking. The first is
that since we're living in a sexist, male-dominated society,
with sexist, male-dominated dating rituals, the males of the
socially dominant ethnic group (Caucasians) have a built-in
advantage.
The second (my personal favorite) I've hinted at already.
If you believe that AAM are more sexist, for example, you
will never give one enough of a chance to disprove your
stereotype. Whether or not an AAM is actually sexist won't
matter; the stereotype has already poisoned the interaction.
These problems go all directions and can even have second-order
effects: if I believe all AAF hate their ethnicity and only
want to date WM, I'm committing the exact same stupidity.
6. So how do people end up with these warped perceptions that
have no relationship to reality?
People seem to form stereotypes as heuristics to guide
their behavior based on past experience. What we actually
experience first hand, though, is fairly small compared
to the amount of information we receive through books,
magazines, newspapers, radio, the net, etc. Furthermore,
our current stereotypes further color our perceptions,
influencing even how we perceive first hand experiences.
For example, suppose I believe women are bad drivers. If
some male driver commits some stupidity, I'll just think,
"What an idiot!" If some female driver commits the exact
same stupidity, I'd think, "My God, there's another clueless
woman driver!" Now, let's suppose that the media has a
pervasive bias. Something like, say, "Women are dependent and
not very smart," or "Blacks are criminals." Wouldn't this have
an enormous effect on our perception of reality?
Well, it just so happens that the pervasive media bias
about Asian Americans coincides exactly with many of
the problems Asian Americans face. To a first-order
approximation, in the media, Asian Americans do not exist.
This belief generates many of the Asian-Americans-as-foreigners
racial problems that we face, e.g. hatred based on presumptions
of not speaking English, stealing American jobs, going "back
to where we came from", etc. At a more detailed level (with
Asian Americans lumped with Asians, since that's what the
media does), we finded a marked gender-based difference in
stereotypes. Asian men are portrayed as: asexual martial
arts masters, asexual viet cong guerillas, asexual servants,
and asexual geeks. Asian women get to be prostitutes, geisha,
prostitutes, repressed-daughters-named-May-Ling-of-cruel-oppressive-
emporers-(there's another male role)-waiting-to-be-sexually-liberated-
by-a-real-(white)-man, and recently, newscasters. Strange, there
seems to be some similarities between what we observe here and
the stupid explanations given in question 4. As another data
point, look at the (infrequent) interracial couples in films:
the man is almost invariably white.
7. Media bias shmedia bias, that's just for weak-minded people.
What is the circumference of the Earth? How do you know?
Who is the president of the US? How do you know?
Who first invented movable-type printing? How do you know?
If you were able to answer all of these questions based
entirely on first-hand knowledge and your acute mental
powers, I'll be thoroughly impressed.
My point is that everything we know is shaped by the media.
8. You seem to harp on media bias a lot. Why the personal vendetta?
Confession time. My name is Alan Hu, and I'm a media-slave.
From the time I started dating in high school until half-way
through undergrad, I exclusively dated white women. In my high
school in rich, white suburbia, you could attribute my dating
preference to my lack of interest in the two available
Asian-American females. But at Stanford (where the
Asian-American percentage was floating between 7 and 9 percent
thanks to racist bias in the admissions process), there were
plenty of intelligent, assertive, articulate, artistic,
athletic, beautiful, and successful (traits I find attractive)
Asian-American women. Somehow, I still only dated white
women. It wasn't until Junior year, when my (militantly
Korean) roommate jokingly called me a twinkie for my dating
preference that I started wondering. First, I rationalized,
"I'm not a typical Asian American. I like women who are
confident, independent, and self-assured." Of course, I
couldn't answer why I presumed that only white people had these
positive traits. Then, the knee-jerk answer, "well, I just
find white women more attractive" popped up. But the key
question became "Why do I find attractive what I find
attractive?" After considerable soul-searching, I realized I
had internalized a standard of beauty that excluded all but
white women. (Charlie's Angels had been the definitive
standard of beauty in my formative years.) I had been swimming
in media bias all these years without realizing it. I
consciously examined my standards of attractiveness,
considerably broadened my dating behavior, and became much
happier.
So I have little patience for people who say "I just find X
attractive; it's like ice cream flavors." People are NOT
ice cream. I only ask that you ask yourself WHY you find
attractive what you find attractive.
9. Well, that may be a fine analysis, but don't just sit around and whine.
Excellent point. On a societal level, look around you and
look into yourself. Recognize media bias and attempt to
counteract it. If you see something egregious, point it out,
write a letter to the editor, do something. If you see
racism and prejudice in yourself, attempt to eliminate it.
On a personal level, if you're happy with your social life,
great, more power to you. If you find yourself having difficulty
forming relationships, here's a few suggestions I've found
helpful over the years:
1. Love yourself. If you don't love yourself, how
can you expect someone else to?
2. Take good care of yourself. This is a corollary
to number 1. Be happy. Do things you enjoy.
Be actively involved in life. A study on
loneliness indicated that married people are
as lonely as single people. Being with people
doesn't cure loneliness; enjoying your own
company does.
3. Improve yourself. Honestly evaluate yourself. If
you don't like something, don't feel bad about
it, but consider working on improving it in the
spirit of self-improvement and self-esteem.
4. Don't fear rejection. People have different tastes.
If someone is racist and rejects you, that's
his/her problem. If someone can't appreciate
your virtues, that's his/her problem. The right
person for you will love you for being you.
5. Have a good time. Life's too short to waste time moping.
A relationship book I particularly like is Intimate Connections
(yeah, I know it's a hokey title) by David Burns, MD.
May all of you be happy in your relationships...
--Alan Hu
----------
I am not Arthur Hu. I am NOT Arthur Hu. I AM NOT ARTHUR HU.
I am not a neo-conservative writer for AsianWeek. I did not go
to MIT. I do not conduct phone surveys. I am not married.
I do not believe in Dan Quayle's family values.
Arthur Hu is a fine person. So am I. We are not, however, the same person.
Tim Stilwell
Alan Hu <a...@Xenon.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>
Before I begin, I just wanted to say that it is VERY impressive that this
gentleman is capable of such balanced and clear writing that is also enjoyable
to read. Too bad that he can't find time to post in s.c.a.a using the same
good taste.
> OK, let's spell this out. There is nothing wrong whatsoever
> with an interracial relationship, as long as the relationship
> is healthy in general. It's far, far more important that the
> participants are honest, trustworthy, loyal, etc., etc., that
> they care about each other, that they communicate, and so forth.
What's all this? The Moral Majority speaks???
Slavery died long ago. If two people want to date, then let them date. If
they intend to manipulate each other while doing so, you and I have absolutely
no power or say in the matter. Hopefully being burned a few times will teach
them to treat the next person nicer but isn't this type of education really
up to the parents?? On the other hand, I absolutely HATE meeting people that
have been mentally crippled by someone. Again however, isn't this type of
education really up to the parents?
> According to the San Francisco
> Chronicle/Examiner (Sunday _Image_ supplement, December 2, 1990)
> [Look folks! Real live hard data, not just someone's anecdotal
> evidence.] AAF/WM marriages outnumber AAM/WF marriages by 4 to 1
> in San Francisco. In Sacramento the ratio is 8 to 1.
So? Don't the AAM have lots and lots of AAF to choose from? What exactly
is it that upsets you so much? You aren't getting your fair share? The
vast majority of AAF prefer to date only AAM! Where have YOU been?
On another tangent...
Do you realize that ranting and raving about the *unfairness* of the ability
of people to date each other is insane? Why are you implying that WF are
property that YOU have been unjustly denied? Good Grief! Talk about
stereo-typical AAM sexist behavior!
If you met a WF and opened your big mouth this way, I am sure that she would
be turned off and walk away. In fact, she would probably tell you to FOAD!
> As another data
> point, look at the (infrequent) interracial couples in films:
> the man is almost invariably white.
>
Hey! I know it is the '90s, but WHO pays for the date to the movies? Isn't it
still the man? When the US contains a sizable population of people interested
in viewing a movie JUST because the hero is AAM and the heroine is WF, then
I am sure the movie will be made. After all, what was the entire point of
that incredibly stupid "Jungle Fever" movie. The problems of inter-racial
dating would have been completely eliminated on the man's side IF he had been
single. Why did he have to be a jerk who cheats on his wife and daughter?
> I had been swimming
> in media bias all these years without realizing it.
>
This is VERY interesting. It reminds me of that movie where the Black
psychologist showed that Black children felt bad because they were not born
White. It also reminds me of a very nice young AAF who told me that she
used to run home from school every day and cry in her room while pulling on
her nose in a vain attempt to make it longer. How sad!
I don't know how to experience this feeling at all so I find it very difficult
to understand. I guess the subliminal messages missed me. I am WM blond and
blue-eyed. I always disliked blond WF because our skin looks like we have
been like in a cellar for about 90 years during the winter season. (If you
live up north)
> So I have little patience for people who say "I just find X
> attractive; it's like ice cream flavors." People are NOT
> ice cream. I only ask that you ask yourself WHY you find
> attractive what you find attractive.
Why do you state this as if the only reason people select a mate is because
of appearance? Surely OTHER factors are considered. For example, there are
lots of pretty women out there but the key to gaining my interest lies in
a demonstration of generosity. I remember dating a woman who complained that
I "would never be rich" because I spent $3 buying the annual Girl Scout
cookies. I cannot think of a quicker turnoff.
tim
James C. Liu
writes:
[lots of confrontational statements blowing off Alan Hu's reposting
of his inter-racial dating FAQ.]
Whoa. Mr. Stilwell, just want you to know, that surely, the
scaa-PD are going to investigate, indict, and haul you in and
flog you with your own mail box. You have my sympathies. :-)
Jaa, James
=======================================================================
James C. Liu | 4118 Etcheverry Hall |
Nuclear Thermal Hydraulics Lab | Phone: (510) 642-0421 |
Dept. of Nuclear Engineering | FAX: (510) 643-9685 |
UC Berkeley, CA 94720 | jc...@four-lab4.Berkeley.EDU |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
KARAOKE ADDICT! Wanna go? Know a place? Need moral support? Send email.
=======================================================================
Bryan Wu
>In article <18...@auspex-gw.auspex.com> ts...@Auspex.COM (Tim Stilwell)
>writes:
> [lots of confrontational statements blowing off Alan Hu's reposting
> of his inter-racial dating FAQ.]
>
>Whoa. Mr. Stilwell, just want you to know, that surely, the
>scaa-PD are going to investigate, indict, and haul you in and
>flog you with your own mail box. You have my sympathies. :-)
>
>Jaa, James
Nahh, he's been here before and we know better than to waste our time..
right guys? guys?
Bryan
:-?
Michael Lee
>Alan Hu <a...@Xenon.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>>
>
> Before I begin, I just wanted to say that it is VERY impressive that this
> gentleman is capable of such balanced and clear writing that is also enjoyable
> to read. Too bad that he can't find time to post in s.c.a.a using the same
> good taste.
Ooohhh, Bad, very very Baaad. Not good to blow off steam in this newsgroup.
Don't you know that Alan is regarded very highly here. The FAQ was generously
given out after numerous requests from all racial lines.
>
>> OK, let's spell this out. There is nothing wrong whatsoever
>> with an interracial relationship, as long as the relationship
>> is healthy in general. It's far, far more important that the
>> participants are honest, trustworthy, loyal, etc., etc., that
>> they care about each other, that they communicate, and so forth.
>
> What's all this? The Moral Majority speaks???
Who says the majority is moral?
> Slavery died long ago.
Irrelevant.
>If two people want to date, then let them date. If
> they intend to manipulate each other while doing so, you and I have absolutely
> no power or say in the matter.
Obviously no power. But aren't you saying something right now?
> Hopefully being burned a few times will teach
> them to treat the next person nicer but isn't this type of education really
> up to the parents??
What?
> On the other hand, I absolutely HATE meeting people that
> have been mentally crippled by someone. Again however, isn't this type of
> education really up to the parents?
What?
>> According to the San Francisco
>> Chronicle/Examiner (Sunday _Image_ supplement, December 2, 1990)
>> [Look folks! Real live hard data, not just someone's anecdotal
>> evidence.] AAF/WM marriages outnumber AAM/WF marriages by 4 to 1
>> in San Francisco. In Sacramento the ratio is 8 to 1.
>
> So? Don't the AAM have lots and lots of AAF to choose from? What exactly
> is it that upsets you so much? You aren't getting your fair share? The
> vast majority of AAF prefer to date only AAM! Where have YOU been?
Down boy! Down! You got Alan all wrong.
>
> On another tangent...
> Do you realize that ranting and raving about the *unfairness* of the ability
> of people to date each other is insane? Why are you implying that WF are
> property that YOU have been unjustly denied? Good Grief! Talk about
> stereo-typical AAM sexist behavior!
Down boy! Down! Fighting "sexism" with >racism< is no virtue.
> If you met a WF and opened your big mouth this way, I am sure that she would
> be turned off and walk away. In fact, she would probably tell you to FOAD!
>
>> As another data
>> point, look at the (infrequent) interracial couples in films:
>> the man is almost invariably white.
>>
>
> Hey! I know it is the '90s, but WHO pays for the date to the movies? Isn't it
> still the man?
And you call AAMs sexist. Sheesh.
> When the US contains a sizable population of people interested
> in viewing a movie JUST because the hero is AAM and the heroine is WF, then
> I am sure the movie will be made.
What? Haven't you heard of "The Lover"?
> After all, what was the entire point of
> that incredibly stupid "Jungle Fever" movie.
Ronnie, what do you have to say about this?
> The problems of inter-racial
> dating would have been completely eliminated on the man's side IF he had been
> single. Why did he have to be a jerk who cheats on his wife and daughter?
uh Oh! Baad move.
>
>
>> I had been swimming
>> in media bias all these years without realizing it.
>>
> This is VERY interesting. It reminds me of that movie where the Black
> psychologist showed that Black children felt bad because they were not born
> White. It also reminds me of a very nice young AAF who told me that she
> used to run home from school every day and cry in her room while pulling on
> her nose in a vain attempt to make it longer. How sad!
What?
>> So I have little patience for people who say "I just find X
>> attractive; it's like ice cream flavors." People are NOT
>> ice cream. I only ask that you ask yourself WHY you find
>> attractive what you find attractive.
>
> Why do you state this as if the only reason people select a mate is because
> of appearance? Surely OTHER factors are considered. For example, there are
> lots of pretty women out there but the key to gaining my interest lies in
> a demonstration of generosity. I remember dating a woman who complained that
> I "would never be rich" because I spent $3 buying the annual Girl Scout
> cookies. I cannot think of a quicker turnoff.
What?
All I can say is "good luck".
Ronnie Townsend
>In article <18...@auspex-gw.auspex.com> ts...@Auspex.COM (Tim Stilwell) writes:
>>In article <1993Aug4.2...@csd-newshost.stanford.edu>,
>>Alan Hu <a...@Xenon.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Hey! I know it is the '90s, but WHO pays for the date to the movies? Isn't it
>> still the man?
>
>And you call AAMs sexist. Sheesh.
>
>> When the US contains a sizable population of people interested
>> in viewing a movie JUST because the hero is AAM and the heroine is WF, then
>> I am sure the movie will be made.
>
>What? Haven't you heard of "The Lover"?
Watch any Don "the Dragon" Wilson kung-fu flicks and you'll see this all over
the place!
>
>> After all, what was the entire point of
>> that incredibly stupid "Jungle Fever" movie.
>
>Ronnie, what do you have to say about this?
I never actually saw the movie (I'm not one of those who has to go see every
movie made by/about Black people, Jungle Fever never interested me) but I
understand the "jungle fever" issue. I grew up with the term. It refers to
that "forbidden fruit" syndrome wherein people date outside their own "ethnic"
group for that "exotic eroticism." It is a sickness if you ask me. It is a
form of racial self-hatred. I will date any woman regardless of race as long
as she is a) fine (this should need no explanation) b) intelligent c) mature
(emotionally if not chronologically) and d) interested in me!!! I think we
should all adopt that attitude... after all... why eliminate large percentages
of the opposite sex from the "dating pool" simply because of something as
trivial as race!
>>>
>> This is VERY interesting. It reminds me of that movie where the Black
>> psychologist showed that Black children felt bad because they were not born
>> White. It also reminds me of a very nice young AAF who told me that she
>> used to run home from school every day and cry in her room while pulling on
>> her nose in a vain attempt to make it longer. How sad!
>
>What?
There is actually some truth to what he/she says here... There was a time
when Black folk hated being Black... after all ... we had no money, no
education and no chance of living a decent life here in a America and the only
reason was because we were Black... what's not to hate!! During the late 50's
and early 60's we learned to like ourselves and to be proud that our people
were able to perservere through the indignities of slavery and racism and have
actually risen to the point where large numbers of our former oppressors accept
us as equals. Still large numbers see us as second class citizens... but that's
life!
>
>>> So I have little patience for people who say "I just find X
>>> attractive; it's like ice cream flavors." People are NOT
>>> ice cream. I only ask that you ask yourself WHY you find
>>> attractive what you find attractive.
>>
>> Why do you state this as if the only reason people select a mate is because
>> of appearance? Surely OTHER factors are considered. For example, there are
>> lots of pretty women out there but the key to gaining my interest lies in
>> a demonstration of generosity. I remember dating a woman who complained that
>> I "would never be rich" because I spent $3 buying the annual Girl Scout
>> cookies. I cannot think of a quicker turnoff.
>
>What?
>
>All I can say is "good luck".
Luck won't help this person if he/she has as many hangups as they have
communicated here... still one must consider that much of what is written on
the net is done so on the fly without much forethought... If a person stops
to think about what their words might appear to be saying about them... they
might say things differently... the good (or bad depending on your point of
view) is that by and large, we don't have to care about what the people here
think of us or our statements... most of us will never meet.
--
Ronnie
-------------------------------------------------------------
Whenever the fates hear someone say, "It can't get any worse than this..."
They just laugh and double your misery!