Lynch's Spoiler Review: "I, Borg"
Timothy W. Lynch
for the latest TNG episode (in this case "I, Borg"), spoiler warnings are
irrelevant.
Well, now, that's a nice change of pace...
You betcha. It's not *quite* perfect, but it was definitely compelling.
More, as usual, after the synop.
As the Enterprise begins exploring a system that is a possible site for
colonization, it comes across a signal of unknown origins. Reasoning that it
might be a distress call, and seeing that it comes from a habitable moon,
Picard sends an away team down, consisting of Riker, Dr. Crusher, and Worf.
They find a crashed ship, and under the debris: an alive, but still
functioning, Borg.
Riker informs Picard of the situation, who stiffens and prepares to bring the
team back at once. Bev, however, demurs; the Borg is badly injured, and
would not survive to rejoin its superiors if left untended. Although the
danger would be great, and Worf quickly suggests simply killing it at once,
Picard agrees to bring it on board for a short time. A detention cell is
prepared and a subspace damping field placed around it (to prevent the Borg
from sending any signals out to its fellows). As the team and the Borg are
transported up, Picard retires to his ready room. Troi follows, concerned
that Picard is reliving old feelings from his capture by the Borg, but Picard
reassures her that he's doing just fine, and that he is perfectly comfortable
with the decision he's made.
Back in the cell, Beverly tends to the unconscious Borg. Some of the
implants in his brain are damaged, but Geordi says he'll be able to replace
them without major difficulties. Picard asks Geordi if he might be able to
access the root commands of the Borg with the new implants; if so, then they
could introduce an invasive program that would act as a slow-acting virus,
killing the entire Borg collective from within. "Infect it? You sound like
it's a disease," queries Bev. "Quite right, doctor," answers Picard. "If
all goes well...a terminal one."
Studies show that it would only be a matter of months from the introduction
of the program to the complete destruction of the Borg race. Bev is very
unsettled by this, though, as it appears to be pure genocide. Picard agrees
that normally it would be unacceptable, but claims that the Borg have left
them no other options, and that they must do whatever is necessary to survive
the Borg "war". Shortly thereafter, the Borg regains consciousness and
explores its small cell. It searches for a terminal with which to access the
collective, but cannot--and Beverly also theorizes that it's hungry for
energy. As Geordi begins preparations to provide it with a power conduit to
feed from, Bev observes that the Borg almost seems *scared* to be so alone.
Picard and Guinan fence, both physically and verbally. While Picard
rationalizes that having the Borg on board is not too great a risk, Guinan
suggests the danger is greater than he knows; and when Picard refers to
humanitarian reasons, Guinan demonstrates the danger in that by suckering
Picard into an easy defeat.
Worf and Geordi enter the cell and provide the Borg with the power conduit.
The Borg (designated "Third of Five"), however, shows no real gratitude or
humanity whatsoever, merely repeating over and over that they will all be
assimilated and that "resistance is futile." Geordi and Worf finish their
work and leave the Borg to its aloneness.
Some time later, Geordi and Beverly are preparing for the perception tests
they'll be giving the Borg, but Beverly still voices a great dislike for the
proceedings. The Borg is beamed directly into their lab and introduced to
Beverly. After a brief discussion of how and why she saved its life, and a
mention of the upcoming tests, the conversation turns to names. Beverly
explains that she and Geordi have names, not designations; and when the Borg
asks if it has a name, Bev and Geordi eventually settle on "Hugh".
Hugh passes the spatial relations portion of the test with ease, and Geordi
realizes the prosthetic eye has a great deal to do with it. Hugh quite
placidly hands over the prosthetic for examination, and listens to Beverly
explain that humanity doesn't *want* to be assimilated. Hugh is puzzled,
because here he no longer hears the "voices" of the other Borg that permeate
his existence under normal circumstances. Bev explains that he's lonely, and
Geordi tells him that after the tests are done, Hugh can be returned to the
collective--a statement that seems almost to make him pleased.
Geordi begins to have second thoughts about their plan, and voices them to
Guinan. Unlike most occasions, however, Guinan is closed to him; she merely
warns him of what the other Borg would do and dismisses his soul-searching.
When Geordi suggests she go talk to Hugh, she refuses. "Then just listen;
that is what you do best, isn't it?" Meanwhile, long-range sensors pick up a
Borg scoutship about 31 hours away...
Guinan reluctantly visits Hugh, now back in his cell, and angrily informs him
that resistance is *not* futile. She describes her people's struggle against
the Borg onslaught, and bitterly recounts how there are now very few of them
left. "What you are saying," responds Hugh haltingly, "is that you are
lonely. So is Hugh." Guinan, for one of the first times in her life, is
left speechless.
Later, Geordi continues to examine Hugh, who is now curious as to why all the
examinations are being done. He responds to Geordi's explanation (that they
want to learn about other species) by pointing out that assimilation allows
the Borg to learn *everything* about a species. When he becomes confused
about why humans don't wish to be assimilated, Geordi talks of individuality,
and of a sense of self. Even now, he points out, Hugh always refers to
himself as "we", never "I". When Geordi responds to the issue of loneliness
by bringing up and defining friends, Hugh responds to the definition with
"Like Geordi...and Hugh."
Geordi and Data present the invasive program to Picard, who is impressed. As
Data continues work on it, Geordi voices doubt to Picard about their plans.
He tells Picard that Hugh doesn't seem...well...very Borglike any more, and
that it doesn't feel right to use him as an instrument of genocide. Picard,
however, will have none of it; he likens Geordi's attitude to that of
twentieth-century scientists growing attached to laboratory animals, and
tells Geordi to "unattach" himself from Hugh.
That evening, Guinan visits Picard in his quarters. After some small talk,
she brings up Hugh. After her visit, she has doubts about the rightness of
Picard's plan, and wants him to convince her. She suggests that at the very
least, Picard should talk to him before committing to this. "If you're gonna
use this person--" "It's not a PERSON, damn it, it's a Borg!" "If you are
gonna use this *person* to destroy his race, you should at least look him in
the eye once before you do it...because I am not sure it *is* still a Borg."
Picard is apparently unmoved, but later has Worf and Hugh beam to his ready
room. Worf leaves, and Hugh addresses Picard--as Locutus. Picard plays
along as Locutus, attempting to bring out Hugh's full Borglike nature.
However, this attempt fails, and actually brings out Hugh's full
individuality instead. Picard's reference to Geordi causes Hugh to
*personally* refuse to help. "I will not assist you." "You said 'I'. But
you are Borg." "No. I am Hugh."
Picard is shocked, and hastily calls a conference to get other options.
Riker suggests returning him with his memory wiped, but both Geordi and Bev
demur at that. Picard eventually comes to the hopeful conclusion that
although the Borg would almost certainly erase Hugh's memory of these events,
there might be a short time in which Hugh's "singularity" would impact on the
entire Borg collective consciousness, perhaps altering them forever.
However, Bev quickly asks what happens if Hugh doesn't _want_ to leave.
Picard and Geordi give Hugh the choice, which confuses Hugh. He decides that
he truly *wishes* to stay, but that it's too dangerous for him to do; he asks
to be taken back. As the Borg ship nears the system, Hugh is beamed
down--but so is Geordi, who asked to be allowed to go down to the planet and
who rightly expects to be ignored. As the Enterprise hides in the system's
star's chromosphere, the Borg ship arrives and two Borg beam down to the
moon. As Geordi watches, they link up to Hugh and are briefed. The three
quickly reclaim the circuits of their dead comrades and return to their ship;
but as the beam whisks them away, Hugh ever so slightly turns his head to nod
a farewell to Geordi...
Whew. Okay, so it was a bit longer than usual, but I have a hunch everyone
was expecting that. :-) Now, onwards to commentary.
On the whole, I quite liked this! There were a couple of things I'd have
liked to change, but certainly there was nothing to scream "this is awful!"
at me the way much of "Imaginary Friend", the beginning of "The Perfect
Mate", or ninety-five percent of "Cost of Living" did.
The bits I'd change, since that's probably the most important part? Well, I
just think bits of it were too *easy*, that's all. Specifically, while I
could certainly grant Hugh *gradually* becoming more individualized and
Guinan *eventually* working through her prejudice, I think both happened too
fast. Ideally, I think Hugh should have been on board for at least another
couple of weeks for both to really work, and perhaps expanding this to a
nice, quiet two-parter would have done nicely. (Of course, the problem
*does* arise there about how you'd keep the other Borg away that long, but
it'd probably be solvable.) That would make things feel a little more
natural. As it is, it's not that anything felt *wrong*; things just could've
felt a weensy bit more *right*, that's all.
But within the framework they *did* use, everything was really nice. The
plot was very tight, mostly because it was very...well, "small" is the word I
want to use, but it sounds disparaging and it's not meant. I suppose it was
a very quiet plot, really; very internal, very basic, nothing sweeping.
Given that two of Rene Echevarria's other TNG credits are "The Offspring" and
"Transfigurations" [which, if nothing else, had a lot of good "quiet"
elements, I think], though, that's not surprising.
I think the plot was basically incidental, though; we knew (or at least, I
was pretty sure from the start) that the planned Borg genocide wouldn't come
off, after all. What this did much more of, I think, was two things that
desperately needed to be done in any Borg story. First and foremost, it did
a lot more to address what feelings Picard still had bubbling beneath the
surface after the whole Locutus affair; and second, it opened the possibility
of changing the Borg, which is really essential if they're going to come
back. Completely static villains are boring, because you can pigeonhole them
so well. (A third element was to address how GUINAN felt about the effect
the Borg had on her people, and that's something that had never really been
addressed at all.) As such, this mostly came down to three performances:
that of Patrick Stewart, Whoopi Goldberg, and Jonathan Del Arco (Hugh). All
three were wonderful.
There was absolutely *no* trace of the preachy, false-moralizing Picard we
had at the end of "Imaginary Friend"; what we had back was the man at war
with his own ideals and *desperately* trying to rationalize what he really
knows is a rotten way to do business, even with an enemy. Whether he
consciously knows at the outset just how much rage at the Borg he's got left
doesn't matter; but we certainly know. But as long as he can put it in terms
of the ship and the crew (such as his conversation with Deanna, when he talks
of a justified risk to the ship and being comfortable with his decision so
far as that is concerned) without a single touch on his own situation, he's
fine. And his Locutus impression to provoke Hugh; oh, my stars. I don't
think I ever actually believed he really *had* gone back to that personality,
but to say I had worms of doubt and worry there is to understate the point
incredibly. This is easily up in the list of Stewart's best TNG
performances, no question.
(I also quite deliberately didn't include *Picard's* coming around to the
reality of the situation as one of the things that went too fast. Picard's a
steady and solid enough man, I think, that he really knew at the beginning
that his plans were wrong; and when you're in that situation, it very well
might not take much to snap you to consciously realizing it.)
As for Guinan...well, what can I say? Although I do think her conversion was
a little quick, I have to hasten to add that if they had to do it this fast,
this is about the only way to go. Her eventually going to visit Hugh was no
surprise, from either a plot or a character standpoint. From a plot
standpoint, you knew she had to to keep things going; but from a character
standpoint, Guinan has *never* struck me as someone who doubts her own
rightness, and to absolutely refuse to see him invites speculation that
you're hiding. She'd have to go to prove it to herself, if nothing else.
And Hugh's quick picking-up of "What you are saying...is that you are lonely"
was just about THE perfect way to get her attention quickly. (It was also
nice to see Guinan actually *have* some imperfections, and this is both a big
one and a very understandable one.)
BTW, Guinan's little stunt during the fencing match was *very* in character,
and extremely vicious. God, but I've missed her all season. :-)
And then, there's Hugh. It can't be easy to play a character who goes from
very machinelike to very human in such a short period; that requires a fairly
quick shift of range. Del Arco managed it, definitely. Of course, I realize
the "echo" built into the voice helped build the initial machineness, but his
whole style of speaking changed over the course of his experiences. There
was real evolution at work, which he captured quite well. (It's interesting
to note that one of Echevarria's other shows, "The Offspring", covers many of
the same bases in a very different form.) In particular, his lines about the
voices, his "lonely" line to Guinan, and his entire confrontation with Picard
shone very brightly. (And if we want to get off the voice characterization,
that tiny turn to Geordi at the end was about the right level.) Nice.
As for the rest of the characters, all were up to the task at hand. Riker,
Worf and Data didn't have much to do, but were certainly fine. Bev was the
outlet for really all the initial pro-Hugh opinions, and she was definitely
the right choice; as has been pointed out a lot recently, Bev has a long
history of putting individual rights and her own morals ahead of almost any
long-range plan or sweeping guideline, from at least as far back as
"Symbiosis" to as recent as "The Perfect Mate". And as for Geordi...it's
about time LeVar Burton had something meaty to play with. Kudos to him for
putting a lot of emotion into scenes where he had to work double-time. (In
other words...well, Hugh wasn't exactly going to get the emotions flowing
quickly.)
My one regret as far as Geordi's concerned is that Hugh didn't remark on his
VISOR. After all, it's a prosthetic, and it separates him from the other
humans around him; and being a prosthetic, it's almost a link between
humanity and Borgness. I think a lot of mileage could have been made from
that. (You remember the end of "Return of the Jedi", when Luke is just
standing there and *staring* at his mechanical hand for a little while?
Something like that.)
The directing was quite nice; not Bowman or Frakes, no, but good. Robert
Lederman is a rookie to TNG; I hope he does a bit more. (The scene that
particularly struck me was one of the Picard/Guinan scenes; I believe the one
in his quarters. In the closing shot of that scene, the shadows fall so as
to nearly split Picard's face right down the middle. That's a very subtle
reminder of Picard once *being* a Borg, I think; and I can't believe it was
unintentional. It also helped set up the "Locutus" scene nicely; it
introduced just enough uncertainty to keep you off balance.)
I'm not entirely sure what else to say here. The plot was very simple, and
very tight, so there's not much to go into, and I've been frothing at the
mouth over the writing and acting of all the characters for quite a while
now. :-) So, some short takes:
--Jay Chattaway's coming back up to some of his old habits. I thought the
music playing over Guinan's talk of resistance almost called up a little bit
of African harmonies...not that I know from music, mind you. :-) That was
nice, and there was at least one time when I remember hearing a theme that
reminded me a lot of the music on board the Borg ship in BOBW1-2.
--One really *does* wonder if Picard's Locutus rendition was 100% act...but
not for too long. Brr.
--The line about animal experimentation seemed slightly out of place, and
awfully extreme; but I suspect that was deliberate. Picard was putting
himself in an extreme position throughout most of the show, and I think this
was meant to play up just how little of a mood he was in to compromise. I'd
be wary of calling this TNG's pronouncement on the animal rights issue,
myself. (And it certainly worked in context: "unattach yourself, Mr.
LaForge." Ow.)
--"Then just listen; that is what you do best, isn't it?" Okay, was this
*intentionally* meant to call up a similar line from "Star Wars", or is that
just me?
--I'm sorry we didn't get to see just *one* viewscreen shot when the
Enterprise was hiding in the chromosphere, but I suspect budgetary
constraints had something to do with it.
Well, that ought to do it. I wholeheartedly enjoyed this; it's nice to be
able to say that, since I haven't been able to since "The First Duty". Let's
hope the momentum carries through to the last three shows!
So, the numbers, maestro, if you please:
Plot: 10. Very tight, very smooth.
Plot Handling: 8. A little bit *too* easy for both Hugh's humanity and
Guinan's conversion.
Characterization/Acting: 10. As if I'd give it any less for something
this superb.
TOTAL: 9.5, rounding up for music. Very nice indeed.
NEXT WEEK:
Geordi the friendly ghost, and Ro the not-so-friendly ghost. Bummer. :-)
Tim Lynch (Cornell's first Astronomy B.A.; one of many Caltech grad students)
BITNET: tlynch@citjuliet
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"WE ARE ALL INDIVIDUALS!!!!!"
"I'm not!"
--Monty Python's "The Life of Brian"
--
Copyright 1992, Timothy W. Lynch. All rights reserved, but feel free to ask...
Jose Gonzalez
>WARNING: Although this post, like all the other reviews, contains spoilers
>for the latest TNG episode (in this case "I, Borg"), spoiler warnings are
>irrelevant.
>
>just think bits of it were too *easy*, that's all. Specifically, while I
>could certainly grant Hugh *gradually* becoming more individualized and
>Guinan *eventually* working through her prejudice, I think both happened too
>fast. Ideally, I think Hugh should have been on board for at least another
>couple of weeks for both to really work, and perhaps expanding this to a
>nice, quiet two-parter would have done nicely. (Of course, the problem
>*does* arise there about how you'd keep the other Borg away that long, but
>it'd probably be solvable.) That would make things feel a little more
>natural. As it is, it's not that anything felt *wrong*; things just could've
>felt a weensy bit more *right*, that's all.
As I stated to Atshushi, I think that the fact that he *was* an adolescent, at
the age when he would normally be undergoing a pscyhosocial crisis, was
crucial as to why he was so receptive.
>that of Patrick Stewart, Whoopi Goldberg, and Jonathan Del Arco (Hugh). All
>three were wonderful.
>There was absolutely *no* trace of the preachy, false-moralizing Picard we
>had at the end of "Imaginary Friend"; what we had back was the man at war
>with his own ideals and *desperately* trying to rationalize what he really
>knows is a rotten way to do business, even with an enemy. Whether he
>consciously knows at the outset just how much rage at the Borg he's got left
>doesn't matter; but we certainly know.
Add an enourmous amount of fear to that rage, and I'm with you.
>And his Locutus impression to provoke Hugh; oh, my stars. I don't
>think I ever actually believed he really *had* gone back to that personality,
>but to say I had worms of doubt and worry there is to understate the point
>incredibly. This is easily up in the list of Stewart's best TNG
>performances, no question.
You're not kidding. I was thinking *no* way, it's not possible, but Stewart
did such a marvelous job that I *wasn't* sure, and that was scary. And this
acting as Locutus was another important step in Picard's recovery. He
not only confronted another Borg, but did it in a way that *forced* him to
somewhat relive the worst experience of his life.
>As for Guinan...well, what can I say? Although I do think her conversion was
>a little quick, I have to hasten to add that if they had to do it this fast,
>this is about the only way to go. Her eventually going to visit Hugh was no
>surprise, from either a plot or a character standpoint. From a plot
>standpoint, you knew she had to to keep things going; but from a character
>standpoint, Guinan has *never* struck me as someone who doubts her own
>rightness, and to absolutely refuse to see him invites speculation that
>you're hiding. She'd have to go to prove it to herself, if nothing else.
>And Hugh's quick picking-up of "What you are saying...is that you are lonely"
>was just about THE perfect way to get her attention quickly. (It was also
>nice to see Guinan actually *have* some imperfections, and this is both a big
>one and a very understandable one.)
Yes, here we had the two most ethical and moral people on the ship actually
putting those feelings aside. It wouldn't have been unrealistic to see one
or both of them *not* make a turn-around, but their strong characters make
it almost inevitable.
>music playing over Guinan's talk of resistance almost called up a little bit
>of African harmonies...not that I know from music, mind you. :-) That was
>nice, and there was at least one time when I remember hearing a theme that
>reminded me a lot of the music on board the Borg ship in BOBW1-2.
I noticed that exact scene with Guinan as well. (And music is very unimportant
to TNG, IMO. It can enhance certainly, but better little than bad.) Very
nice.
>awfully extreme; but I suspect that was deliberate. Picard was putting
>himself in an extreme position throughout most of the show, and I think this
>was meant to play up just how little of a mood he was in to compromise.
And just how much he was seeking revenge. He usually listens to his crewmen,
not so this time.
>--I'm sorry we didn't get to see just *one* viewscreen shot when the
>Enterprise was hiding in the chromosphere, but I suspect budgetary
>constraints had something to do with it.
Also I would have liked to have seen the scout ship myself.
>
>TOTAL: 9.5, rounding up for music. Very nice indeed.
>
Sounds just about right. Not perfect, but real close.
--
Jose Gonzalez
Spock- "In your own way, you are as stubborn as another
captain of the Enterprise I once knew."
Picard-"Then I'm in good company, sir."
Timothy W. Lynch
>In article <1992May14.0...@cco.caltech.edu> tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>>WARNING: Although this post, like all the other reviews, contains spoilers
>>for the latest TNG episode (in this case "I, Borg"), spoiler warnings are
>>irrelevant.
>>The bits I'd change, since that's probably the most important part? Well, I
>>just think bits of it were too *easy*, that's all. Specifically, while I
>>could certainly grant Hugh *gradually* becoming more individualized and
>>Guinan *eventually* working through her prejudice, I think both happened too
>>fast. Ideally, I think Hugh should have been on board for at least another
>>couple of weeks for both to really work, and perhaps expanding this to a
>>nice, quiet two-parter would have done nicely. (Of course, the problem
>>*does* arise there about how you'd keep the other Borg away that long, but
>>it'd probably be solvable.) That would make things feel a little more
>>natural. As it is, it's not that anything felt *wrong*; things just could've
>>felt a weensy bit more *right*, that's all.
>As I stated to Atshushi, I think that the fact that he *was* an adolescent, at
>the age when he would normally be undergoing a pscyhosocial crisis, was
>crucial as to why he was so receptive.
I think that's a very strong possibility, and a good point; but I'd like to
*know* that, and either way it still seems a little fast without an
explanation.
>>And his Locutus impression to provoke Hugh; oh, my stars. I don't
>>think I ever actually believed he really *had* gone back to that personality,
>>but to say I had worms of doubt and worry there is to understate the point
>>incredibly. This is easily up in the list of Stewart's best TNG
>>performances, no question.
>You're not kidding. I was thinking *no* way, it's not possible, but Stewart
>did such a marvelous job that I *wasn't* sure, and that was scary.
Yep. Yepyepyepyepyep.
>>music playing over Guinan's talk of resistance almost called up a little bit
>>of African harmonies...not that I know from music, mind you. :-) That was
>>nice, and there was at least one time when I remember hearing a theme that
>>reminded me a lot of the music on board the Borg ship in BOBW1-2.
>I noticed that exact scene with Guinan as well.
Oh, good, it's not just me. :-)
>(And music is very unimportant
>to TNG, IMO. It can enhance certainly, but better little than bad.)
Agreed on the latter, but I think it could do more than it does.
>>--I'm sorry we didn't get to see just *one* viewscreen shot when the
>>Enterprise was hiding in the chromosphere, but I suspect budgetary
>>constraints had something to do with it.
>Also I would have liked to have seen the scout ship myself.
We saw the wreck of one; that was good enough for me.
>>TOTAL: 9.5, rounding up for music. Very nice indeed.
>Sounds just about right. Not perfect, but real close.
Yep.
Tim Lynch
Willie Gordon
WARNING THERE ARE SPOILERS AHEAD
tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>And his Locutus impression to provoke Hugh; oh, my stars. I don't
>think I ever actually believed he really *had* gone back to that personality,
>but to say I had worms of doubt and worry there is to understate the point
>incredibly. This is easily up in the list of Stewart's best TNG
>performances, no question.
>(I also quite deliberately didn't include *Picard's* coming around to the
>reality of the situation as one of the things that went too fast. Picard's a
>steady and solid enough man, I think, that he really knew at the beginning
>that his plans were wrong; and when you're in that situation, it very well
>might not take much to snap you to consciously realizing it.)
I agree whole heartedly here, but there is a thread I hope can be
expanded.......in BOBW Picard/Locutus made the statement...
"*I* am Locutus of Borg"....From what we've learned from Hugh, that
the collective WE is the basis of the Borg mentality...Shouldn't it
have been "*WE* are Locutus of Borg"?.. Somehow, I think Picard knew
that the possibility of the individualistic *I* mentality existed all
along within the Borg..(Hugh), but revenge had a way of clouding his
humanity...Which incidently made Picards "I am Locutus" scene, that much
more Powerfull, when his humanity won out....
Another NOTE: Picards attempt to convince HUGH that "resistance is
futile" Prompted HUGH to express that "resistance is not futile".
Somehow the writers wanted us to think of this statement in the context
of HUGH'S conversation with Guinen, .......However, I tendered the
possibility that HUGH may have been refering to HIMSELF.......(just a thought)
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Timothy W. Lynch
>WARNING THERE ARE SPOILERS AHEAD
>tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
>>(I also quite deliberately didn't include *Picard's* coming around to the
>>reality of the situation as one of the things that went too fast. Picard's a
>>steady and solid enough man, I think, that he really knew at the beginning
>>that his plans were wrong; and when you're in that situation, it very well
>>might not take much to snap you to consciously realizing it.)
>I agree whole heartedly here, but there is a thread I hope can be
>expanded.......in BOBW Picard/Locutus made the statement...
>"*I* am Locutus of Borg"....From what we've learned from Hugh, that
>the collective WE is the basis of the Borg mentality...Shouldn't it
>have been "*WE* are Locutus of Borg"?..
Hmm. Interesting point, but I'd tend to disagree. Picard was chosen and
assimilated as an individual (rather than a culture, as referenced in
"I, Borg") for a very specific reason; the Borg wanted a human authority
figure to use as a liaison. I think the impact of that would be blunted
were he to be absorbed completely and instantly; they may have deliberately
left in the authoritative elements of individuality to increase his
effectiveness.
>Another NOTE: Picards attempt to convince HUGH that "resistance is
>futile" Prompted HUGH to express that "resistance is not futile".
>Somehow the writers wanted us to think of this statement in the context
>of HUGH'S conversation with Guinen, .......However, I tendered the
>possibility that HUGH may have been refering to HIMSELF.......(just a thought)
Hmm. An interesting one, to be sure, but I would tend to agree that we're
meant to see parallels to his conversation with Guinan. (Hugh picked up on
what people said and used it against them *awfully* fast; the loneliness bit
with Guinan, the resistance bit here, and Geordi's speech about friendship.
Dangerous individual...)
Tim Lynch
hillel.e.markowitz
>WARNING: Although this post, like all the other reviews, contains spoilers
>for the latest TNG episode (in this case "I, Borg"), spoiler warnings are
>irrelevant.
>Well, now, that's a nice change of pace...
>You betcha. It's not *quite* perfect, but it was definitely compelling.
>More, as usual, after the synop.
>
>
>Data continues work on it, Geordi voices doubt to Picard about their plans.
>He tells Picard that Hugh doesn't seem...well...very Borglike any more, and
>that it doesn't feel right to use him as an instrument of genocide. Picard,
>however, will have none of it; he likens Geordi's attitude to that of
>twentieth-century scientists growing attached to laboratory animals, and
>tells Geordi to "unattach" himself from Hugh.
>
>
>able to say that, since I haven't been able to since "The First Duty". Let's
>hope the momentum carries through to the last three shows!
>
>So, the numbers, maestro, if you please:
>
>Plot: 10. Very tight, very smooth.
>Plot Handling: 8. A little bit *too* easy for both Hugh's humanity and
> Guinan's conversion.
>Characterization/Acting: 10. As if I'd give it any less for something
> this superb.
>
>TOTAL: 9.5, rounding up for music. Very nice indeed.
>
>NEXT WEEK:
>
>Geordi the friendly ghost, and Ro the not-so-friendly ghost. Bummer. :-)
>
>Tim Lynch (Cornell's first Astronomy B.A.; one of many Caltech grad students)
>BITNET: tlynch@citjuliet
>INTERNET: tly...@juliet.caltech.edu
>UUCP: ...!ucbvax!tlynch%juliet.ca...@hamlet.caltech.edu
>"You are all individuals!"
>"WE ARE ALL INDIVIDUALS!!!!!"
>"I'm not!"
> --Monty Python's "The Life of Brian"
>--
>Copyright 1992, Timothy W. Lynch. All rights reserved, but feel free to ask...
One point that seems to have been missed. Since the virus is a
gemetrical construct that appears to be induced by vision through
the prosthetic, imagine the next war.
Prepare to be assimilated.
Very well, this display shows our response.
100 hours later, no more Borg except those that have disconnected
from the collective (having learned of the possibility from Hugh).
Result, those Borg that survive form a semi-collective entity.
That is the collective link remains but the entities are no longer
just cells in a "body". That should actually make them stronger.
Consider Jack Chalker's Windrider series for an example.
Hillel Markowitz H_Mar...@att.com
Amos Yung
>about time LeVar Burton had something meaty to play with. Kudos to him for
>putting a lot of emotion into scenes where he had to work double-time. (In
>other words...well, Hugh wasn't exactly going to get the emotions flowing
>quickly.)
>
>My one regret as far as Geordi's concerned is that Hugh didn't remark on his
>VISOR. After all, it's a prosthetic, and it separates him from the other
>humans around him; and being a prosthetic, it's almost a link between
>humanity and Borgness. I think a lot of mileage could have been made from
>that. (You remember the end of "Return of the Jedi", when Luke is just
>standing there and *staring* at his mechanical hand for a little while?
>Something like that.)
>
Vendetta. While it is logical, I am glad that they didn't use it.
However, this is one time I *truly* wish Geordi will lose the VISOR. Much is
lost in that scene when Picard told him, "Detach yourself, Mr. LaForge."
because of our unable to see his eyes. Pity.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amos Yung | Macintosh Jr.: The power to crush the other kid.
yu...@r-node.gts.org|
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy W. Lynch
>In article <1992May14.0...@cco.caltech.edu> tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
Spoilers for "I, Borg" ahead...but mostly little ones.
>>My one regret as far as Geordi's concerned is that Hugh didn't remark on his
>>VISOR. After all, it's a prosthetic, and it separates him from the other
>>humans around him; and being a prosthetic, it's almost a link between
>>humanity and Borgness. I think a lot of mileage could have been made from
>>that. (You remember the end of "Return of the Jedi", when Luke is just
>>standing there and *staring* at his mechanical hand for a little while?
>>Something like that.)
>>
>But if they follow on the VISOR thread, it would be too much like the
>Vendetta. While it is logical, I am glad that they didn't use it.
Somebody else mentioned that to me in email. I have to admit that, much to
my chagrin, I had *completely* forgotten that a scene like this was in
_Vendetta_.
Given that, I can at least understand a bit more why they didn't go with one
here; but I still think it would have been nice. The fact that one person
had and used a good idea should not preclude you from using it yourself if
you came up with it independently.
Tim Lynch
Brian Kendig
>*intentionally* meant to call up a similar line from "Star Wars", or is that
>just me?
Which line are you referring to?
--
| Brian S. Kendig --/\-- Tri bske...@phoenix.Princeton.EDU, @PUCC
| Computer Science BSE |/ \| Quad You gave your life to become the person
| Princeton University /____\ clubs you are right now. Was it worth it?
Mark Buda
>standing there and *staring* at his mechanical hand for a little while?
>Something like that.)
When BOBW2 aired, I really wished that they had *removed* Picard's
hand to fit the prosthesis, rather than just stuck it on over his
hand. It would have given him a lasting reminder of his experience
that would not go away no matter what he did...
--
Mark Buda
"Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball."
Matthew Gertz
Tim Lynch <tly...@cco.caltech.edu> writes:
>WARNING: Although this post, like all the other reviews, contains spoilers
>for the latest TNG episode (in this case "I, Borg"), spoiler warnings are
>irrelevant.
>You betcha. It's not *quite* perfect, but it was definitely compelling.
That was my impression, too. There were a couple of things I didn't
like, and one thing that I considered a major goof, but all-in-all
enjoyable.
>The bits I'd change, since that's probably the most important part? Well, I
>just think bits of it were too *easy*, that's all. Specifically, while I
>could certainly grant Hugh *gradually* becoming more individualized
At first, I was rather angry about this. I didn't *want* the Borg to
be understanding and understandable. One of the things I liked about
the Borg was that they were so, well, *alien*, and not just another species
in G.R.'s "feel-good" universe. To an extent, I still feel that way. On
the other hand, I now realize that probably the overriding reason that
I was upset about Hugh's humanity was that the Borg were the one race that
Picard and co. could blow away without them (and us) feeling guilty about
this. The Borg were *bad* -- unhuman, no redeeming features. Period.
(Yes, I'm rather ashamed about this now -- the episode *did* succeed to
that extent with me. One part of me tries to rationalize this with
"Okay, so how could we have *known*?", which is silly, since this is after
all just a TV show where the writers are deliberately trying to throw us
off balance, but still...) I didn't really have a problem with Hugh
coming individualized so fast -- I guess I thought that the actions of
"I, Borg" happened over a couple of weeks.
> and Guinan *eventually* working through her prejudice,
Now, *this* was definitely a shining moment in TNG. Guinan *finally* became
a real character for me. Okay, so she didn't like "Q" either, but that's
more like a humorous dislike (at least, it's played that way). To see
the utter hatred on Guinan's face, after being so cool and smug for so long,
was definitely the highlight of the episode for me.
> I think both happened too
>fast. Ideally, I think Hugh should have been on board for at least another
>couple of weeks for both to really work, and perhaps expanding this to a
>nice, quiet two-parter would have done nicely.
There's certainly room for expansion, I agree. For instance, take the scene
where Picard informs Geordi that a Borg is beaming up. Geordi accepts this
as if Borg are beamed onto the ship every day. C'mon, the Borg destroyed
almost 40 starships at Wolf 359. I would've expected Geordi and the rest
of the crew to look at Hugh much as a police officer would view a cop-killer.
I certainly would've like to have seen some crew reaction about thier
"visitor," especially since many (if not most) of the crew would've had
friends and family on those ships. (On the other hand, this episode should
only serve to fuel the DS9 commander's hatred of Picard ("You mean you had
the chance to destroy them, and you *didn't*!")
>I think the plot was basically incidental, though; we knew (or at least, I
>was pretty sure from the start) that the planned Borg genocide wouldn't come
>off, after all. What this did much more of, I think, was two things that
>desperately needed to be done in any Borg story. First and foremost, it did
>a lot more to address what feelings Picard still had bubbling beneath the
>surface after the whole Locutus affair;
Which was dealt with, although rather incidentally, in my opinion (Picard's
scenes with Troi and Hugh notwithstanding).
> and second, it opened the possibility
>of changing the Borg, which is really essential if they're going to come
>back. Completely static villains are boring, because you can pigeonhole them
>so well.
Re: the Daleks, whom the Borg have always reminded me of (in fact, I'm now
also reminded of "Genesis of the Daleks," where the Doctor had to
contemplate genocide much like Picard did in this episode).
> (A third element was to address how GUINAN felt about the effect
>the Borg had on her people, and that's something that had never really been
>addressed at all.)
Like I say, this last one was far more interesting to me than the others.
>As for Guinan...well, what can I say? Although I do think her conversion was
>a little quick, I have to hasten to add that if they had to do it this fast,
>this is about the only way to go. Her eventually going to visit Hugh was no
>surprise, from either a plot or a character standpoint. From a plot
>standpoint, you knew she had to to keep things going; but from a character
>standpoint, Guinan has *never* struck me as someone who doubts her own
>rightness,
Ah, that's it! You've hit the nail right on the head. Perfect way to
describe Guinan.
> and to absolutely refuse to see him invites speculation that
>you're hiding. She'd have to go to prove it to herself, if nothing else.
>And Hugh's quick picking-up of "What you are saying...is that you are lonely"
>was just about THE perfect way to get her attention quickly. (It was also
>nice to see Guinan actually *have* some imperfections, and this is both a big
>one and a very understandable one.)
>
>BTW, Guinan's little stunt during the fencing match was *very* in character,
>and extremely vicious. God, but I've missed her all season. :-)
I haven't, but if Whoopi starts turning in more performances like this,
I might start.
>As for the rest of the characters, all were up to the task at hand. Riker,
>Worf and Data didn't have much to do, but were certainly fine.
Riker had three lines, if I recall, and while Worf was on the camera more,
I think his big contribution to dialog was "Raise the shields after we are
inside." Data was nowhere here, for all intents and purposes, save during
his description of the computer virus they were going to implant in the
Borg. This is a shame, since Data has much in common with Hugh, and I've been
disappointed that the other reference to Data in connection with the Borg
has been a throw-away line from Locutus back in BOBWII ("Data... primitive
automaton... you will be obsolete after this culture is assimilated" or
words to that effect). Hugh was becoming human, Data wants to be more human,
so I though Data might have had some interesting moments inthis episode.
(Too bad it wasn't a two-parter 8^)
> Bev was the
>outlet for really all the initial pro-Hugh opinions, and she was definitely
>the right choice; as has been pointed out a lot recently, Bev has a long
>history of putting individual rights and her own morals ahead of almost any
>long-range plan or sweeping guideline, from at least as far back as
>"Symbiosis" to as recent as "The Perfect Mate".
Bev's about due for her own "fall" (along the lines of Guinan's this episode)
any time now, as far as I'm concerned. She's another one who occasionally
acts a little too pure, a little too clean ("You're too pure, Crater. You
bleed too much." -- Kirk, "The Man Trap"). And when it happens, it ought to
be a good show.
>My one regret as far as Geordi's concerned is that Hugh didn't remark on his
>VISOR. After all, it's a prosthetic, and it separates him from the other
>humans around him; and being a prosthetic, it's almost a link between
>humanity and Borgness. I think a lot of mileage could have been made from
>that. (You remember the end of "Return of the Jedi", when Luke is just
>standing there and *staring* at his mechanical hand for a little while?
>Something like that.)
Agreed. I had much the same thoughts.
>--One really *does* wonder if Picard's Locutus rendition was 100% act...but
>not for too long. Brr.
We may find out yet.
>--I'm sorry we didn't get to see just *one* viewscreen shot when the
>Enterprise was hiding in the chromosphere, but I suspect budgetary
>constraints had something to do with it.
I'm bummed that we didn't see the incoming Borg ship. Or did I just miss it?
My own peeves:
So, Picard takes it upon himself to launch genocide. Would it have been
entirely impossible for him to contact Starfleet first? I realize that
captains have a lot of autonomy on cruise, but *really*! Assuming that the
Borg were not between Picard and the nearest Starbase, they should've been
able to encrypt and send a message for orders. Of course, this works both
ways, and I suspect Picard is going to get in trouble in a later episode
for "letting the Borg go."
"We'll hide in the chromosphere." Dumb remark, Picard; Hugh is standing
four feet from you, and he's going to have him memory dumped into the
Borg collective consciousness. That scout ship came from somewhere, and it
was only doing warp 7 or so. Suppose a Borg mothership came screaming in
at Warp 9.7? You can't stay in the chromosphere forever. All the scoutship
has to do is wait around for Momma to arrive; you're stuck in hiding. And you
know that the Borg would just love to have the Enterprise; they've made that
abundently clear in the past. Question of the day: what the heck do the
Borg need with a scoutship anyway?
>TOTAL: 9.5, rounding up for music. Very nice indeed.
I'd go with a 9, but definitely in the top three of this season.
>
>NEXT WEEK:
>Geordi the friendly ghost, and Ro the not-so-friendly ghost. Bummer. :-)
I'll be very curious to see how they can pass through objects and yet not fall
through the floors. 8^)
--
Matt Gertz, mwge...@cs.cmu.edu
Dept. of ECE, The Robotics Institute at Carnegie Mellon University.
Kyle Jones
> --"Then just listen; that is what you do best, isn't it?"
> Okay, was this *intentionally* meant to call up a similar line
> from "Star Wars", or is that just me?
bske...@dae.Princeton.EDU (Brian Kendig) writes:
> Which line are you referring to?
I think it was something the Princess said to Solo. I can't
remember it exactly, though.
Interesting that Tim remembered the _Star Wars_ quote. The TNG
line reminded me of something Ariel said to Sebastian in _The
Little Mermaid_. Something like "Go tell my father. That's what
Timothy W. Lynch
ky...@uunet.uu.net (Kyle Jones) writes:
>tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
> > --"Then just listen; that is what you do best, isn't it?"
> > Okay, was this *intentionally* meant to call up a similar line
> > from "Star Wars", or is that just me?
>bske...@dae.Princeton.EDU (Brian Kendig) writes:
> > Which line are you referring to?
>I think it was something the Princess said to Solo. I can't
>remember it exactly, though.
Nope. Think Han and Luke as Han is about to rocket off and spend his reward
money.
>Interesting that Tim remembered the _Star Wars_ quote. The TNG
>line reminded me of something Ariel said to Sebastian in _The
>Little Mermaid_. Something like "Go tell my father. That's what
>you do best, isn't it?"
Probably because I've never seen "The Little Mermaid". :-)
Tim Lynch
JOHN HEIM
>Tim Lynch <tly...@cco.caltech.edu> writes:
>
>>WARNING: Although this post, like all the other reviews, contains spoilers
>>for the latest TNG episode (in this case "I, Borg"), spoiler warnings are
>>irrelevant.
>
>> and second, it opened the possibility
>>of changing the Borg, which is really essential if they're going to come
>>back. Completely static villains are boring, because you can pigeonhole them
>>so well.
If they make nice with the Borg I'm going to be very disappointed.
>Re: the Daleks, whom the Borg have always reminded me of (in fact, I'm now
>also reminded of "Genesis of the Daleks," where the Doctor had to
>contemplate genocide much like Picard did in this episode).
[Deletion.]
>So, Picard takes it upon himself to launch genocide. Would it have been
>entirely impossible for him to contact Starfleet first? I realize that
>captains have a lot of autonomy on cruise, but *really*! Assuming that the
>Borg were not between Picard and the nearest Starbase, they should've been
>able to encrypt and send a message for orders. Of course, this works both
>ways, and I suspect Picard is going to get in trouble in a later episode
>for "letting the Borg go."
No kidding! He may have just doomed the human race. I think it's
also unrealistic. If I'd have been in his place I'd have gone through
with the plan. And I'm not even a highly trained Starfleet officer
(just an acting ensign :-)). What an incredible lack of dicipline
Picard showed. He made a decision that was good for his own
conscience at the risk of the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE!
Plus I think it would have been a better show if Picard had to deal
with committing genocide (even if he felt had to) and it would have
gotten the writers out of the Borg problem w/o having to 'make nice'.
A lot of people have commented about Borg endings that they would
and would not consider lame-o. I think this would have been an
non lame-o ending.
John G. Heim Email: he...@macc.wisc.edu
**************** Not responsible for lost or stolen articles. ****************
Tim Gentry
> tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
> > Okay, was this *intentionally* meant to call up a similar line
> > from "Star Wars", or is that just me?
>
> bske...@dae.Princeton.EDU (Brian Kendig) writes:
> > Which line are you referring to?
>
> I think it was something the Princess said to Solo.
Close, but... On the Rebel base after the escape from the Death Star, Han
and Chewie are loading they're newly-gotten wealth into the Falcon, when
Luke tries to persuade Han to join the rebels in their attack on the Death
Star. When Han turns him down Luke leaves to his X-wing with the retort,
"Well, take care of yourself Han - I guess that's what you're best at."
(that's as close as I can come from memory...)
-Tim
gen...@bcstec.ca.boeing.com
--
Tim Gentry Boeing Computer Services gen...@bcstec.ca.boeing.com
This posting in no way officially represents the opinions of Boeing, Boeing
Computer Services -- or possibly even the poster, for that matter.
Timothy W. Lynch
lines of an argument I'd otherwise be repeating over and over, and that I feel
is an important consideration that people might be missing.
he...@vms.macc.wisc.edu (JOHN HEIM ) writes:
>If they make nice with the Borg I'm going to be very disappointed.
Nobody said anything about making nice. I don't recall this being a binary
decision.
>What an incredible lack of dicipline
>Picard showed. He made a decision that was good for his own
>conscience at the risk of the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE!
And I would hope anyone in his position would make the same one. Committing
genocide to defend your "more moral" way of life is a very large step towards
killing your society from within, IMO. I severely doubt anything Picard did
put the Federation in *more* danger from the Borg, and if Picard's hope pans
out, the danger is far lessened.
And what price do you pay for this wonderful death you've brought to the Borg?
How do you live with yourself?
It was different back in BOBW1-2. The Borg were directly attacking, and the
only real choice the Federation had was to defend itself. And more important-
ly, at that point, so far as both we and the Feds knew, the Borg *were* a
nameless, faceless, purely implacable enemy; tantamount to "Star Wars"'s
stormtroopers (albeit with better aim :-) ), the sort of being who's so
expendable that it's easy to think about just getting rid of them all.
Now we, and they, have seen differently. The Borg are *not* all nameless and
faceless, and individual ones (or at least one individual one; two, if you
count Locutus) are not beyond redemption. They're not a machinelike threat
you can simply eliminate by "turning off" any more. They're real, and you have
to deal with them as such.
"But what about Picard? Isn't he responsible for the deaths of millions now if
the Borg come back and devastate the Federation?"
[Oh, no, Tim's doing a one-man Q&A show again...sorry. :-) ]
Absolutely not. Nobody's suggested that with Picard's actions, everybody
should put away their weapons and go home. On the contrary, prepare for the
worst by all means; keep working on those new weapons mentioned back in BOBW1,
and be prepared to defend yourself as expertly and forcefully as possible *if*
his hope fails to materialize.
But failing to destroy an enemy when that enemy is not in direct conflict
with you at the time is not something I can ever see as a failing or a vice.
By that logic, Kirk should be feeling responsible for every death the Gorn
ever caused.
Planned, premeditated genocide is something humanity's supposed to have grown
well beyond by TNG's time. I can't say I'm surprised that the urge still
flourishes in the 20th century, but I don't have to sit back and like it
without speaking out, either.
Remember, folks, the Borg as we knew them (nameless, faceless, monolithic,
totally unredeemable) are just what every government likes to have everyone
*think* about the enemy they're fighting today. Do you really want to be
arguing that the Borg "deserve" to be slaughtered wholesale?
Comments welcome.
Tim Lynch (Cornell's first Astronomy B.A.; one of many Caltech grad students)
BITNET: tlynch@citjuliet
INTERNET: tly...@juliet.caltech.edu
UUCP: ...!ucbvax!tlynch%juliet.ca...@hamlet.caltech.edu
"With the first link, a chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first
thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Kyle Jones
should be classified. Should they be considered a single entity,
or a race of individuals in absolute cooperation? I believe that
Tim sees the Borg as the latter. Given the revelation in "I,
Borg" I have to agree with him. It does make a difference how
complex the individuals cells are in a organism. After a certain
level of complexity is reached, the cells must be considered to
be sentient beings in cooperation.
However, it is only reasonable to treat the cells as individuals
when they are no longer a part of the organism. This is more or
less the way warfare is waged today. Prisoners of war, separated
from their "organism" (nation, rebel faction, whatever), are
treated differently than when they are operating as a part of
the enemy unit.
This gives us the following dilemma. If we're to respect the
individuality of the Borg members, we have to pull the collective
apart, which is effectively killing the collective organism. On
the other hand if we don't pull the collective apart, we will
have to kill and kill and kill individual members in order to
disable the collective organism enough to stop it. This may not
be complete genocide but it will be plenty bad. Of these two
options, I suppose the pulling apart the collective organism is
the best option. The individuals still have a slim chance of
survival, given a massive relief effort.
However, some realities have to be faced. As far as we know, the
Federation does not have the weapons necessary to stop the Borg.
Nor does it have the technical wizardy required to pull apart the
collective into individual members. Nor do the Feds have the
resources to keep the Borg from dying en masse if they managed to
pull the collective apart. Nor does it have any idea how to talk
the Borg out of assimilating them.
On the other hand if the Borg had followed up on the initial
attack of the Federation, there's nothing to indicate that they
would not have succeeded in wiping out the rest of Starfleet and
assimilating the Federation. There is nothing to indicate that
the Borg have had a change of heart about assimilating the
Federation. While the individual Borg will listen to reason with
regard to individualism, the collective apparently does not.
"Death is irrelevant. Self-determination is irrelevant. You
will comply."
So, given that the Federation has no other weapon than the virus
with which to defend themselves, and that the Borg have clearly
stated their hostile intentions, and that waiting until the Borg
arrive to trigger the virus will be too late to save yourself,
what viable survival options are there other than using the
virus?
* You can continue weapons development and hope that the Borg don't
arrive before you find something else to stop them. This didn't
work last time. A good avenue to explore would be a version of
this virus that stopped short at disabling the entire collective.
* You can continue to try and reason with them. I'd definitely
explore this option. The more you continue the dialogue, the
more you learn about their philosophy and such knowledge cannot
hurt. One idea might be to try and convice the Borg that the
Federation has nothing to offer, or just GIVE them the
technology they want. Of course you don't want to do this
unless you KNOW the Borg will be satisfied and not trash ytour
civilization anyway.
* You can figure out how many days it will take for the virus to
stop the Borg and hold off using it until just before the Borg
are too close for the virus to be able to stop them. Risky, but
more acceptable than than a preemptive strike.
he...@vms.macc.wisc.edu (JOHN HEIM ) writes:
> What an incredible lack of dicipline Picard showed. He made a
> decision that was good for his own conscience at the risk of
> the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE!
tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
> And I would hope anyone in his position would make the same
> one. Committing genocide to defend your "more moral" way of
> life is a very large step towards killing your society from
> within, IMO.
I don't consider it to be defending a more moral way of life, but
rather defending life itself. If the Borg come and wreck
civilization in order to assimilate various bits of technology
they're interested in, a lot of people are going to die, even if
they aren't attacked directly. Everyone living in what we'd call
an urban area will be facing starvation, unless infrastructure
can be restored quickly. Nevermind the problems of finding
untainted drinking water, sewage disposal, and medical care.
> I severely doubt anything Picard did put the Federation in
> *more* danger from the Borg, and if Picard's hope pans out,
> the danger is far lessened.
The point is that Picard should have been fighting to win the
war. The Borg have the Federation severely outgunned. If you
want to win, you can't fight the Borg on their terms. You can't
wait and let the Borg take the war to you, because by then it
will be too late.
> And what price do you pay for this wonderful death you've
> brought to the Borg? How do you live with yourself?
You say to yourself, "if I hadn't killed them, they would have
killed me." I guess it comes down to whether you're willing to
bet your life on whether the Borg can be stopped by a method
other than the virus, and that method can be discovered before
the Borg arrive again.
> It was different back in BOBW1-2. The Borg were directly attacking, and the
> only real choice the Federation had was to defend itself. And more important-
> ly, at that point, so far as both we and the Feds knew, the Borg *were* a
> nameless, faceless, purely implacable enemy; tantamount to "Star Wars"'s
> stormtroopers (albeit with better aim :-) ), the sort of being who's so
> expendable that it's easy to think about just getting rid of them all.
>
> Now we, and they, have seen differently. The Borg are *not* all nameless and
> faceless, and individual ones (or at least one individual one; two, if you
> count Locutus) are not beyond redemption. They're not a machinelike threat
> you can simply eliminate by "turning off" any more. They're real, and you have
> to deal with them as such.
They are only individuals when they are not a part of the
collective. Are you willing to "cut the strings" so to speak and
make all the individuals exist separately? Are you sure this
won't kill them just as surely as the virus would have? They
need the high technology just to survive. They can't eat organic
matter, and their bodies probably don't excrete wastes in a
"normal" way either. Destroy their network and they're going to
be in as much trouble as we would be in if our technological
infrastructure were trashed.
As it stand now, it's going to be pretty tough to not kill nearly
all of them.
> "But what about Picard? Isn't he responsible for the deaths of millions now if
> the Borg come back and devastate the Federation?"
>
> [Oh, no, Tim's doing a one-man Q&A show again...sorry. :-) ]
>
> Absolutely not. Nobody's suggested that with Picard's actions, everybody
> should put away their weapons and go home. On the contrary, prepare for the
> worst by all means; keep working on those new weapons mentioned back in BOBW1,
> and be prepared to defend yourself as expertly and forcefully as possible *if*
> his hope fails to materialize.
OK, I can accept this, as long as the virus is left in reserve to
be used later.
> But failing to destroy an enemy when that enemy is not in direct conflict
> with you at the time is not something I can ever see as a failing or a vice.
Given an enemy that could be repelled by convention battle
techniques I would agree with you. But given that there is no
viable defense against the Borg _currently_ other than the virus,
you have to fight with what you have.
> By that logic, Kirk should be feeling responsible for every death the Gorn
> ever caused.
Apples and oranges. The Gorn could be repelled by convention
means. And the dispute with the Gorn was over a particular
region. They weren't trying to destroy the whole Federation, nor
were they as capable of it as the Borg.
> Planned, premeditated genocide is something humanity's supposed to have grown
> well beyond by TNG's time. I can't say I'm surprised that the urge still
> flourishes in the 20th century, but I don't have to sit back and like it
> without speaking out, either.
I hope humanity will not have become so blinded by noble sounding
principles that they forget the basic necessity of survival.
> Remember, folks, the Borg as we knew them (nameless, faceless, monolithic,
> totally unredeemable) are just what every government likes to have everyone
> *think* about the enemy they're fighting today. Do you really want to be
> arguing that the Borg "deserve" to be slaughtered wholesale?
There is a difference between propaganda and a real, live,
implacable enemy. Learn from history, but don't be blinded by
it. This is what I meant when I used the word "dogma" before.
Broad generalizations make is easy to be lazy and not face
reality. Look at the situation as it stands now, as opposed to
what you hope might happen. Analyse. Now: what should the
Federation be doing?
Timothy W. Lynch
(Replies to this can stay public, but I'd appreciate it if they were CC'd
to me, as I'll be out of town long enough that I might possibly miss them if
they weren't. Thanks.)
ky...@uunet.uu.net (Kyle Jones) writes:
>One of the issues that needs to be clarified is how the Borg
>should be classified. Should they be considered a single entity,
>or a race of individuals in absolute cooperation? I believe that
>Tim sees the Borg as the latter. Given the revelation in "I,
>Borg" I have to agree with him.
Check. Sounds good so far. :-)
>However, it is only reasonable to treat the cells as individuals
>when they are no longer a part of the organism. This is more or
>less the way warfare is waged today. Prisoners of war, separated
>from their "organism" (nation, rebel faction, whatever), are
>treated differently than when they are operating as a part of
>the enemy unit.
Hmm. Okay, I suppose I can deal with that...
>This gives us the following dilemma. If we're to respect the
>individuality of the Borg members, we have to pull the collective
>apart, which is effectively killing the collective organism.
Not necessarily; or rather, not necessarily permanently. Suppose, for the
sake of argument, that Picard's hope of Hugh's individuality percolating
through the collective is a smashing success. We could have something
tantamount then to a group mind that *also* has the capability to step
back and get some individual views as well.
Now, if the Borg remain hostile, that's probably a bad thing. But if they
see what's happened to them as an improvement, they might, just *might*,
start realizing that most individuals would rather not lose their
individuality so fast, and might invite races to join the collective rather
than forcing them in.
I realize I'm taking an optimistic extreme, but it does, I think, serve to
demonstrate that isolating and dealing with individual Borg does not necessa-
rily doom the collective intelligence to extinction.
>On
>the other hand if we don't pull the collective apart, we will
>have to kill and kill and kill individual members in order to
>disable the collective organism enough to stop it. This may not
>be complete genocide but it will be plenty bad.
I'm with you here.
>However, some realities have to be faced. As far as we know, the
>Federation does not have the weapons necessary to stop the Borg.
Perhaps. Shelby *did* talk about such weapons as being about 2 yrs.
away in BOBW1, which coincidentally is mighty close to 2 years gone in
TNG time. Okay, so there have probably been a few delays because a lot
of effort had to go into rebuilding the fleet; but they're probably not
far from coming on line.
>Nor does it have the technical wizardy required to pull apart the
>collective into individual members.
That I'm not so sure of. If Geordi managed to isolate Hugh from contact
with his fellows with that subspace damping field he put around them,
might it not be possible to strengthen that, and perhaps isolate
individual Borg or groups of a few individual Borg? I'm not sure they've
thought of it that way, but I think the capability might well exist now.
>Nor do the Feds have the
>resources to keep the Borg from dying en masse if they managed to
>pull the collective apart.
We don't *know* what happens if they pull apart the collective, so I don't
think this is a particularly settled, or even relevant, issue.
>Nor does it have any idea how to talk
>the Borg out of assimilating them.
Granted.
>On the other hand if the Borg had followed up on the initial
>attack of the Federation, there's nothing to indicate that they
>would not have succeeded in wiping out the rest of Starfleet and
>assimilating the Federation.
Mighty big "if" there. I agree, but the fact is they haven't. We don't
know why, but I have to reiterate the position that planning wholesale
slaughter during a lull in the fighting is grossly immoral behavior, IMO.
>So, given that the Federation has no other weapon than the virus
>with which to defend themselves,
...but might very soon...
>and that the Borg have clearly stated their hostile intentions,
Not necessarily. The ones they fought in "Q Who" and BOBW had; but perhaps the
destruction of one of their ships put them off a bit.
>and that waiting until the Borg
>arrive to trigger the virus will be too late to save yourself,
Speculation only; agreed up to the point that the virus would take a few
months to work, but not that you have to wait until they attack.
>what viable survival options are there other than using the
>virus?
>* You can continue weapons development and hope that the Borg don't
> arrive before you find something else to stop them. This didn't
> work last time.
And therefore should be abandoned? I reject that.
> A good avenue to explore would be a version of
> this virus that stopped short at disabling the entire collective.
Sounds good.
>* You can continue to try and reason with them. I'd definitely
> explore this option. The more you continue the dialogue, the
> more you learn about their philosophy and such knowledge cannot
> hurt.
Suits me fine, but I suspect you'd rather guessed that. :-)
>* You can figure out how many days it will take for the virus to
> stop the Borg and hold off using it until just before the Borg
> are too close for the virus to be able to stop them. Risky, but
> more acceptable than than a preemptive strike.
Sigh. Agreed. I still wouldn't feel particularly happy about doing it,
but if they'd given current signs of an attack and were not receptive to
any other means of defense, then you go with what works--then, and only
then.
(See, I'm not suicidal. If it's obvious that there is absolutely no
other hope, I'd use it. But it's not obvious to me in this situation.)
>tly...@cco.caltech.edu (Timothy W. Lynch) writes:
> > And I would hope anyone in his position would make the same
> > one. Committing genocide to defend your "more moral" way of
> > life is a very large step towards killing your society from
> > within, IMO.
>I don't consider it to be defending a more moral way of life, but
>rather defending life itself.
Perhaps, but I'd consider it moot; I'd take the same position anyway,
with the note that if you are killing Borg who are *directly hostile*
towards you as in a few paragraphs back, it's not genocide, just a really
shitty war.
> > I severely doubt anything Picard did put the Federation in
> > *more* danger from the Borg, and if Picard's hope pans out,
> > the danger is far lessened.
>The point is that Picard should have been fighting to win the
>war.
Wolf-359 suggests that that's been tried.
>The Borg have the Federation severely outgunned.
For now. But then why haven't they attacked?
>If you want to win, you can't fight the Borg on their terms.
Speculation again, and a slippery slope to tread.
> > And what price do you pay for this wonderful death you've
> > brought to the Borg? How do you live with yourself?
>You say to yourself, "if I hadn't killed them, they would have
>killed me."
But in the particular case we saw, you *cannot* say that and be truthful.
You can say "If I hadn't killed them, I think they probably would have
killed me eventually." That's a very, *very* different statement to this
reader.
>I guess it comes down to whether you're willing to
>bet your life on whether the Borg can be stopped by a method
>other than the virus, and that method can be discovered before
>the Borg arrive again.
Probably. I am.
> >It was different back in BOBW1-2. The Borg were directly attacking, and the
> >only real choice the Federation had was to defend itself. And more impor-
> >tantly, at that point, so far as both we and the Feds knew, the Borg *were*
> >a nameless, faceless, purely implacable enemy; tantamount to "Star Wars"'s
> >stormtroopers (albeit with better aim :-) ), the sort of being who's so
> >expendable that it's easy to think about just getting rid of them all.
> >
> >Now we, and they, have seen differently. The Borg are *not* all nameless and
> >faceless, and individual ones (or at least one individual one; two, if you
> >count Locutus) are not beyond redemption. They're not a machinelike threat
> >you can simply eliminate by "turning off" any more. They're real, and you
> >have to deal with them as such.
>They are only individuals when they are not a part of the
>collective. Are you willing to "cut the strings" so to speak and
>make all the individuals exist separately?
I'm much more willing to explore that option than I am to a preemptive strike.
There is also not necessarily a need to convert *all* the Borg to individuali-
ty initially. Individualized Borg *might*, given enough time, prove interested
in evening the stakes and bringing the collective to a standstill, and would
probably have the knowhow to give you a few surprises.
>Are you sure this
>won't kill them just as surely as the virus would have?
No; but given two options that would save me, I'd take the one that *might*
save them over the one that definitely wouldn't every time.
>They need the high technology just to survive.
The high technology doesn't necessarily demand the collective.
> >"But what about Picard? Isn't he responsible for the deaths of millions
> >now if the Borg come back and devastate the Federation?"
> >
> >[Oh, no, Tim's doing a one-man Q&A show again...sorry. :-) ]
> >
> >Absolutely not. Nobody's suggested that with Picard's actions, everybody
> >should put away their weapons and go home. On the contrary, prepare for the
> >worst by all means; keep working on those new weapons mentioned back in
> >BOBW1, and be prepared to defend yourself as expertly and forcefully as
> >possible *if* his hope fails to materialize.
>OK, I can accept this, as long as the virus is left in reserve to
>be used later.
Hopefully not to be, but I'm perfectly happy to keep it around as an absolute,
last-ditch there-are-absolutely-no-options-left reserve.
> >But failing to destroy an enemy when that enemy is not in direct conflict
> >with you at the time is not something I can ever see as a failing or a
> >vice.
>Given an enemy that could be repelled by convention battle
>techniques I would agree with you. But given that there is no
>viable defense against the Borg _currently_ other than the virus,
>you have to fight with what you have.
Only if you have to fight; and at the present time, that's not nearly the
given you seem to be arguing, IMO.
> > By that logic, Kirk should be feeling responsible for every death the Gorn
> > ever caused.
>Apples and oranges.
Not necessarily. Genocide is genocide, and if Kirk gave up the easiest and
best way to win, those arguing Picard's fault here should, in my view, be
doing the same to Kirk.
> >Planned, premeditated genocide is something humanity's supposed to have
> >grown well beyond by TNG's time. I can't say I'm surprised that the urge
> >still flourishes in the 20th century, but I don't have to sit back and like
> >it without speaking out, either.
>I hope humanity will not have become so blinded by noble sounding
>principles that they forget the basic necessity of survival.
Putting aside the fact that this sounds like a direct insult lobbed in my
face, the issue of principles vs. survival is a tough one, but it's also one
that is in more depth in your other response; I'll take it there.
> > Remember, folks, the Borg as we knew them (nameless, faceless, monolithic,
> > totally unredeemable) are just what every government likes to have everyone
> > *think* about the enemy they're fighting today. Do you really want to be
> > arguing that the Borg "deserve" to be slaughtered wholesale?
>There is a difference between propaganda and a real, live,
>implacable enemy.
Perhaps. Or perhaps there is no such thing as the latter. Perhaps the latter
can't be proven.
>Broad generalizations make is easy to be lazy and not face reality.
I'm quite happy with the way I choose to face reality, thanks all the same.
And "Genocide is wrong" is a broad generalization I will never take back.
Sorry.
>Look at the situation as it stands now, as opposed to
>what you hope might happen. Analyse. Now: what should the
>Federation be doing?
I hope the above article has clarified things a bit. I'm not saying the
virus is something that should never be mentioned as the remotest possibility
in any circumstances; I *am* saying it was unjustified here, and I also
strongly suggest that this was a significant portion of the point of the
show.
Pat Berry
> When BOBW2 aired, I really wished that they had *removed* Picard's
> hand to fit the prosthesis, rather than just stuck it on over his
> hand. It would have given him a lasting reminder of his experience
> that would not go away no matter what he did...
It would be difficult to do this convincingly without actually removing
Patrick Stewart's hand, something he is unlikely to agree to.
Pat Berry p...@berry.Cary.NC.US
Jorge Diaz
They did it to Luke Skywalker in The Empire Strikes Back.
Then they just gave him a robot hand. I'm sure that in the TNG time, they
could rig up a hand for him. This way, Stewart would not have had to lose
his hand, and Picard would still function normally, yet he would still
*know* that it's a metal hand, and he would have a permanent reminder of
what happened....
--
Jorge Diaz | "Go to her door... beg like a human."
Georgia Institute of Technology |
Office of Information Technology | - Worf
cco...@prism.gatech.edu |
Mark Buda
He's a dedicated actor - they might be able to do it :-). But anyway,
that didn't stop them from removing Data's arm in "[The] Measure of a
Man", or his head in "Disaster". I didn't mean they would have to have
his hand off permanently - I would expect that certain prosthetic
devices would be common in the 24th century. Data didn't have any
problem with Lal's hand, and in MoaM, the problem with reproducing
Data wasn't with the body parts, it was with the brain. That leaves
the technology of interfacing the prosthesis with the brain - and if
they can manage Geordi's visor, surely they can whip up a hand or two
now and then.
gary l. schroeder
>Pat Berry p...@berry.Cary.NC.US
Besides which, I can already hear the screams of "foul! It's a complete
rip-off of The Empire Strikes Back! The writers haven't had an original
thought in years, so they have to steal from other sci-fi series!"
--
--------------
Gary Schroeder
schr...@bnlux1.bnl.gov
Brookhaven National Laboratory "Home of the Big BNL Burger."
Dave Sim's Ugly Brother
>In article <mk0DLB...@berry.Cary.NC.US> p...@berry.Cary.NC.US (Pat Berry) writes:
>>her...@dastari.uucp (Mark Buda) writes:
>>> When BOBW2 aired, I really wished that they had *removed* Picard's
>>> hand to fit the prosthesis, rather than just stuck it on over his
>>> hand. It would have given him a lasting reminder of his experience
>>> that would not go away no matter what he did...
>>It would be difficult to do this convincingly without actually removing
>>Patrick Stewart's hand, something he is unlikely to agree to.
>They did it to Luke Skywalker in The Empire Strikes Back.
>Then they just gave him a robot hand. I'm sure that in the TNG time, they
>could rig up a hand for him. This way, Stewart would not have had to lose
>his hand, and Picard would still function normally, yet he would still
>*know* that it's a metal hand, and he would have a permanent reminder of
>what happened....
Good point.... too bad they didn't do it, that would have been useful.
However, this points out my basic problem with TNG, when the show began
they established a certain continuity, and despite the cataclismic events
that have transpired, at the end of every show they have preserved the
status quo.
For example, the Federation lost 39 ship (thirty NINE!) at Wolf 359, and
yet no one on the enterprise has been promoted to captain? They have no
need for new comanders for their rebuilding fleet? Right... sure. If they
wanted to be really darring and original Picard would be an Admiral and
at the very least Data and Riker would be Captains (and probably LaForge
as well). It could be an interesting series with three ships, eh? (Pickard
could easily have the Enterprise as Flag Ship with Riker as Captain).
But except for promoting Worf to Security Cheif (and we all know why that
happened) the show has not changed and there is no flow from one show to
another (events in previous shows very rarely effect the current story).
>Jorge Diaz | "Go to her door... beg like a human."
Which Ep was this in? (email please)
--
| kr...@nyx.cs.du.edu | The Coven BBS [303/777-2911] 1st METAL in MST |
| kreme@#22 (FV3 Net) | MST3K, Spacer Quest 3.4w, Anime files, & More |
| [303/722-2009] Vox | "Til mir abot et" MST3K |
Name of the Day: Dave Sim's Ugly Brother
as...@eagle.wesleyan.edu
> cco...@prism.gatech.EDU (Jorge Diaz) writes:
>
>>In article <mk0DLB...@berry.Cary.NC.US> p...@berry.Cary.NC.US (Pat Berry) writes:
>>>her...@dastari.uucp (Mark Buda) writes:
> However, this points out my basic problem with TNG, when the show began
> they established a certain continuity, and despite the cataclismic events
> that have transpired, at the end of every show they have preserved the
> status quo.
>
> For example, the Federation lost 39 ship (thirty NINE!) at Wolf 359, and
> yet no one on the enterprise has been promoted to captain? They have no
> need for new comanders for their rebuilding fleet? Right... sure. If they
> wanted to be really darring and original Picard would be an Admiral and
> at the very least Data and Riker would be Captains (and probably LaForge
> as well). It could be an interesting series with three ships, eh? (Pickard
> could easily have the Enterprise as Flag Ship with Riker as Captain).
>
> But except for promoting Worf to Security Cheif (and we all know why that
> happened) the show has not changed and there is no flow from one show to
> another (events in previous shows very rarely effect the current story).
Aren't most of the people on the Enterprise serving tours of duty, except for
the captain and maybe Riker? Perhaps major promotions are given after the tours
are over. And Riker did get an offer for captainship during the Borg crisis.
--possible explanation--
Mark Runyan
>yet no one on the enterprise has been promoted to captain? They have no
>need for new comanders for their rebuilding fleet? Right... sure. If they
>wanted to be really darring and original Picard would be an Admiral and
>at the very least Data and Riker would be Captains (and probably LaForge
>as well). It could be an interesting series with three ships, eh? (Pickard
>could easily have the Enterprise as Flag Ship with Riker as Captain).
First, I'm not sure the need for Captains is so great that Starfleet
would need to break up the Enterprise crew. The implication of the
pressure on Riker was that there were several officers looking for
advancement. Well, now they have somewhere to advance to. Keeping the
successful Enterprise crew intact makes a certain amount of sense.
Second, during the Klingon Civil War, the fleet that faced the Romulans
*did* use Enterprise officers to command the ships. Perhaps, in
emergency situations, they may find it reasonable to split up the
Enterprise crew, but feel that keeping the Enterprise intact is
more important.
>But except for promoting Worf to Security Cheif (and we all know why that
>happened) the show has not changed and there is no flow from one show to
>another (events in previous shows very rarely effect the current story).
Except for the fact that 1) the Worf/Klingon thread, 2)The Picard/Borg
thread, and 3) the Data/Lore thread. While the Worf/Klingon subplot
was finally resolved to the `status quo', it did go for quite a few
episodes. I'd, also, include the Crew/Q thread, but for the fact
Q episodes can be shown somewhat out of sequence (except perhaps Deja Q
vs Q-Pid) without too much confusion.
While most episodes can be shown in random sequence, I think you'll find
that there are a few which are required before others. Judging by the
confusion of those who watch only one or two episodes a season and ask
`why'd that happen'...
Mark Runyan {r.a.s. random rationalizer}