Slovak/Czech language differences
Super Soul
know, but how mutually intelligable are they? Like the Scandinavian
languages?
Radovan Garabik
: How close are the languages Slovak and Czech? Difficult question, I
: know, but how mutually intelligable are they?
of direct exposure to standard variants, and people usually have
no problems whatsoever.
However, what gives some evidence are east slovak dialects, that do not
have a status of an official language, and therefore people from
the rest of Slovakia are not much exposed to them. People speaking those
dialects have often problems being understood by other Slovaks (not even
mentioning Czechs). Unless they slow down a bit and try to stop using
their specific vocabulary.
: Like the Scandinavian languages?
I'd say it is a good comparision (not speaking a word of any
scandinavian language myself :-))
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| __..--^^^--..__ garabik @ fmph . uniba . sk |
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Raymond Roy
iknowyougotso...@hotmail.com (Super Soul) écrivit :
>How close are the languages Slovak and Czech? Difficult question, I
>know, but how mutually intelligable are they? Like the Scandinavian
>languages?
I am native speaker of none of these langagues, but a Czech friend of
mine said to me that both languages are so close that no Czech bothers
to learn Slovak and vice versa. They just manage to understand each
other without problem (this was said to be before the separation of
Slovakia).
Could you imagine such a thing between Portuguese and Spanish or Danish
and Swedish? Maybe it is possible between Macedonian and Bulgarian, I
don't know.
Raymond
S. Gadbois
Scandinavian friends claim it is easy, especially between Danish and
Norwegian (which version of it though, I don't know).
S. Gadbois
S. Gadbois
How about differences between Czech/Slovak and Polish?
Raymond Roy
<sgad...@hfx.eastlink.ca> écrivit :
>Actually, to mirror the issue:
>How about differences between Czech/Slovak and Polish?
This very Czech friend of mine had a Polish boy-friend. She would speak
Czech to him and he would answer in Polish, and vice versa, but they
admittedly had to train to get there.
I guess that with training this kind of exchange is possible in any
language pair. In my daily life, this is the way my Brazilian wife and I
(French native speaker) converse (altough we can speak each other's
language). It gets cumbersome when a word has different genders in
Portuguese and French (for instance árvore (f.) vs. arbre (m.)).
Raymond
J.Brown
Origin and History of the Czech Language
Czech, along with Slovak, Polish, and the High and Low Sorbian,
belongs to the western group of Slavic languages. More loosely it is
related to the languages forming the east Slavic group (Ukrainian,
Belorussian, and Russian) and the southern Slavic group (Bulgarian,
Macedonian, Slovene, Serbian, and Croatian). As a Slavic language
Czech belongs to the eastern, or satem, division of Indo-European.
more:
http://www.czech.cz/index.php?section=5&menu=64
S. Gadbois
As a francophone, I have to admire your skills. I have a number of
Portuguese and Spanish friends that, despite training in Spanish, I can
NEVER understand. Speed is the main problem, but I never found that
French-Spanish or French-Portuguese was an easy transition (except reading).
It is actually easier for me with Italian.
I was told years ago that Scandinavian languages and most slavic languages
have quite a strong homogeneity compared to Germanic languages (e.g.,
English - German) or even most romance languages (except maybe Portuguese -
Galician, Spanish - Catalan, etc.).
S. Gadbois
Thanks, I actually know a lot about the history of those languages, but in
practical terms, what comparative linguistics suggests and most users can or
cannot do is not that obvious.
John Catlow
> This very Czech friend of mine had a Polish boy-friend. She would speak
> Czech to him and he would answer in Polish, and vice versa, but they
> admittedly had to train to get there.
Had they been _Slovak_ and Polish, though, they would have needed far less
training. According to my (Polish) wife, Slovak and Polish have more words
in common than do Czech and Polish. This also means that Czechs tend to
understand Polish better than Poles understand Czech, the Czechs being able
to guess the meanings of many Polish words thanks to their familiarity with
Slovak.
John
s63...@uottawa.ca
: How close are the languages Slovak and Czech? Difficult question, I
: know, but how mutually intelligable are they? Like the Scandinavian
: languages?
The difference has been described as less than that between Scottish-
English and England-English.
Otto Mann
J.Brown
also, Silesians understand much better Polish than Slovaks, Moravians
understand Czech, Slovaks, Polish without any training, whatsoever.
jb.
>John
>
Dave Volek
s63...@uottawa.ca wrote in message ...
It's obvious that Mr Mann knows very little about either the
Czech or Slovak languages.
Dave Volek
John Catlow
> |The difference has been described as less than that between
> Scottish-
> |English and England-English.
> |
> |Otto Mann
>
> It's obvious that Mr Mann knows very little about either the
> Czech or Slovak languages.
>
deduction.
John
Michelle
Both Czech and Slovak are indeed Slavic tongues, Slovak itself
actually derives from ancient Czech and was created in 19th century as
an impulse to the 1848 revolutions and its will to gain independence
from Hungary (under which Slovakia belonged for many hundreds of years
- in contrast to that, Bohemia and Moravia was governed by Austria
with Vienna acting as the only capital).
Slovak is indeed very similar to Czech, but I would argue the
similarity is as distance as Spanish and Portuguese. Having been born
in Czechoslovakia myself, I know that all was done to keep the country
totally bilingual, which meant we shared both the languages on the
radio, in the television etc. However, already now you can see that it
is very difficult for those born after the separation to actually
understand. There are many words in Slovak, which in fact derive from
Hungarian (and vice versa); there are other letters in the alphabet,
the grammar is different..
Polish is another Slavic language and the distance between
Czech-Polish could be compared to English-German (book/Buch or
milk/Milch also sound quite similar, yet a native English speaker can
hardly understand German..).
Comparing the whole matter to the Scandinavian model is certainly not
the case, as the Scandinavian tongues (Danish, Norwegian, Swedish)
used to be 'exactly' the same, and changed deliberately to celebrate
their independency - historically, there was a lot of conflict among
the three countries. So, often words are spelt differently, yet
pronounced the same way. This model could be used in the former
Yugoslavia - when 'new' languages appeared after the disintegration of
the federal state:
Serbian, Croatian, Montenegrian, Bosnian etc. Nationalism obviously
plays a big role in this matter.
I hope this might help?
Michelle
michael farris
Michelle wrote:
> Slovak is indeed very similar to Czech (cut) However, already now you
> can see that it is very difficult for those born after the separation to
> actually
> understand.
This sounds interesting. According to z Czech I met a year or so ago,
Czechs still hear enough Slovak in everyday life so that it's not that
hard to understand (he said even when the two countries were one young
children might have problems but that after age 10 or so it wasn't an
issue). On the other How would Czech tv shows or movies (presuming
they're allowed on Slovak TV) be shown? dubbed? lektor (aka: most hideous
phenomenon in the world)? subtitles? nothing? What about Slovak
programming shown on Czech TV?
Do Slovaks have to explicitly learn Czech (as in sit thru classroom
lessons or work thru a textbook?) what about vice versa?
> There are many words in Slovak, which in fact derive from
> Hungarian (and vice versa); there are other letters in the alphabet,
> the grammar is different..
how much so? some samples would be nice. Different cases? cases used
differently? different tenses? what?
> Polish is another Slavic language and the distance between
> Czech-Polish could be compared to English-German (book/Buch or
> milk/Milch also sound quite similar, yet a native English speaker can
> hardly understand German..).
I'd say Polish-Czech is more like Fench and Italian and Polish-Slovak like
Spanish Portuguese. When I come across either Czech or Slovak on the radio
I know it's one or the other but can't always tell which. I have also
heard Slovak that sounds utterly unlike Czech (also probably unlike
standard Slovak).
-michael farris
Dave Volek
Slovak is also regarded as the closest language of "Old
Slavonic," the language used by the original translators of
the first Slavic Bible. At the time when Old Slavonic was
popular (about 1000 AD), the Slavic languages were much
closer together then than they are today. In other words,
most Slavic people could have understood this now-extinct
language.
Torsten
> Comparing the whole matter to the Scandinavian model is
> certainly not the case, as the Scandinavian tongues (Danish,
> Norwegian, Swedish) used to be 'exactly' the same, and changed
> deliberately to celebrate their independency - historically,
> there was a lot of conflict among the three countries. So,
> often words are spelt differently, yet pronounced the same way.
Words are rarely pronounced the same way in Danish, Norwegian and
Swedish, if at all. The long-standing conflict in Scandinavia
was between Denmark-Norway on one side and Sweden (including
Finland) on the other. This divide did not coincide with the
language situation where the Scandinavian languages are split
in an eastern and a western form. Swedish and Danish are East
Scandinavian languages whereas Norwegian (and Icelandic and
Faroese) are West Scandinavian.
One of the characteristic features of East Scandinavian is that
it lost the difthongs some time around the 9th century (steinn >
sten) that have been preserved to this day in West Scandinavian.
Word order is also different. In Danish and Swedish, you say
"mit hus" (my house) and in Norwegian you say "huset mitt".
Because of the long union between Denmark and Norway, their
written languages are rather similar. The reason is simple:
the written language used in Norway was for a very long time
Danish. Since then, a number of spelling reforms have moved
Norwegian orthography closer to how Norwegian is actually spoken.
Among other things, this means that the use of dipthongs have
been reintroduced into the spelling and the use of b, d, g in
the syllable final position has been changed to p, t, k. The
development p, t, k > b, d, g is a uniquely Danish feature in
Scandinavian.
Another result of the political boundaries of bygone times is
in vocabulary. Danish and Norwegian by and large use the same
words for the same things. Swedish has gone in another direction
and often uses different words. This is not as big a problem for
inter-Scandinavian communication as it may seem at first, because
very often, the words are known in all three languages, but they
may be considered somewhat archaic or "poetic".
Back to the pronunciation: here the boundary is different,
because Danish differs substantially from the other two and that
is the greatest barrier when people from different parts of
Scandinavia meet. As usual in such situations, it is easier for
Danish speakers to understand Swedish or Norwegian speakers than
vice versa.
Instead of having the situation you assume, i.e., words are
spelled differently, but pronounced the same, we have a situation
where spelling is similar enough for easy recognition but
pronunciation is very dissimilar. The main reason Danish still
looks fairly similar to Swedish is that Danish orthography is
very conservative in much the same way English orthography is.
This is generally a good thing despite the fact that there is
often no clear link between how a word is spelled and how it is
pronounced in contemporary Danish.
If you ever get the chance to hear spoken Danish and Swedish or
Norwegian you will be struck by the difference. They don't sound
alike at all.
--
Torsten
Jiri Borsky
(shortened)
>Having been born
> in Czechoslovakia myself, I know that all was done to keep the country
> totally bilingual, which meant we shared both the languages on the
> radio, in the television etc. However, already now you can see that it
> is very difficult for those born after the separation to actually
> understand.
Expanding on Michelle's findings:
Lot of my father's and my own Slovak was acquired by ardently following
football and ice hockey matches, first on radio and later on TV.
The commentators alternated between Czech and Slovak at regular intervals.
Quite a number of expressions were radically different. Example:
Ball = mic (Cz) = lopta (Sl)
Skate (noun) = brusle = korcula
My dear mother, who had no interest in sport matches, found Slovak
annoying and near incomprehensible whenever she encountered it, for
instance during a film otherwise mostly shot in Czech.
Another unifying aspect was the compulsory army service. Conscripts from
Bohemia would be frequently posted in Slovakia, and vice versa. Regardless
of locality the commands could be in either language, depending on the
nationality of the officer.
Jiri Borsky
Zdislav V. Kovarik
was a shortage of meat, I took a bicycle and rode to the
neighbouring Slovak town, pretending there that I was Slovak -
and I often brought some meat. My extra source of Slovak (in
addition to radio) was a translation of Robinson Crusoe; somehow
Slovak publishing industry was more flexible than Czech. My "The
Old Man and the Sea" was also in Slovak.
More below.
What an improvement compared with the Old Empire - let Svejk
speak (actually, volunteer Marek). For our brethren, I include a
translation into a familiar tongue:
...when there was a rest-pause [ensign] Dauerling made a
speech to his Czech recruits:
"I know," he began, "that you're scum and that I'll have to
knock out of your heads all your Czech bullshit. With Czech
you won't even get to the gallows. Our supreme commander is
a German too. Are you listening? Hell's bells! Flat down!"
Everyone fell down flat, and when they were all lying on
the ground Dauerling walked in front of them and orated:
" 'Flat down's got to be 'flat down', even if you cut
yourself to pieces in the mud, you brigands. 'Flat down'
existed even in ancient Rome; in those days everyone had to
join up and serve from seventeen to sixty. They had to serve
thirty years in the field and weren't allowed to wallow in
the barracks like pigs. If the men had tried to talk
Etruscan to them, those Roman officers would have given them
hell, and I too require all of you to reply in German and
not in that double-Dutch of yours. ..."
[Transl.: Sir Cecil Parrott]
...kiedy byl odpoczynek, Dauerling wyglosil przemowienie do
swoich czeskich rekrutow:
"Ja wiem, powiada, ze jestescie lobuzy i ze trzeba wam
powybijac z glowy wszelkie blazenstwa. Z jezykiem czeskim
nie dostaniecie sie nawet pod szubienice. Nasz najwyzszy
wodz i pan tez jest Niemiec. Slyszeliscie? Himmellaudon,
nieder!"
Wszyscy padaja na komende, a podczas gdy leza na ziemi,
Dauerling przechadza sie przed nimi i przemawia:
"Jak mowie nieder, to nieder, wy holoto, chocbyscie w tym
blocie zgnic mieli: Nieder bylo juz w starozytnym Rzymie.
Wtedy wszyscy musieli sluzyc od roku siedemnastego do
szescdziesiatego, a w polu sluzono przez lat trzydziesci.
Nikt nie piecuchowal po koszarach jak te swinie dzisiejsze.
I wtedy tez byl jednolity jezyk wojskowy i rzymska komenda.
Panowie oficerowie nauczyliby zolnierzy moresu, gdyby ci
probowali mowic etrurisch. Ja tez zadam, zebyscie wszyscy
odpowiadali po niemiecku, a nie takim swoim cyganskim
zargonem. ..."
[Transl.: ?]
Nadrazi, Slavek(ZVK).
Michelle
As a pupil, you were taught (at Primary school level) linguistic
basics about Slovak (and vice versa); this included the very general
grammar, but most definitely not any advanced linguistic analysis or
so. We were learning how to pronounce the various diacritical signs,
some of which adopted from Hungarian. In Literature lessons, we had
read some books written in Slovak (which I remember caused a lot of
difficulties, as there was always a vast amount of words you simply
could not understand). I would agree that if spoken, it may sound very
similar, but there are significant difficulties and I would doubt that
a native Czech speaker could put together, say professional business
letter in standard Slovak..
Just a few examples (the diacritics cannot be displayed, but the words
look like this):
the ball: mic (Czech) versus lopta (Slovak)
Good bye: Nashledanou (Czech) versus Dovidenia (Slovak)
dot: tecka (Czech) versus botka (Slovak)
shoe: bota (Czech) versus topanka (Slovak)
Also the Czech vocative (5th case); when personal nouns change exists
in Czech and not in Slovak.
Regarding the television/radio - there was an equal mixture of both. I
was rather young in those days myself, but still remember that the
news would be read either by a Slovak or by a Czech moderator; some
films would be dubbed/subtitled into Czech and some into Slovak (I
certainly associate say The Adams Family with Slovak ;o), various
sport events would be commented either in Slovak or in Czech. In
practice it meant you possibly missed a few words, but you certainly
learnt a great deal too. Imagine that you are growing up this way from
early age - it just would not seem odd to you at all..
In a way an enriching experience - depending how you look at things,
though ;o)
mb
Super Soul wrote in message
<1ff7sf0.19f9gqems5z48N%iknowyougotso...@hotmail.com>...
>How close are the languages Slovak and Czech? Difficult question, I
>know, but how mutually intelligable are they? Like the Scandinavian
>languages?
More from the imperial times.
From "The Bohemian Language", 1890 Racine, Wisc, by Charles Jonas, late US
Consul at Prague:
"The Bohemian language is spoken in Bohemia, Moravia, part of Austrian and
Prussian Silesia, and also in upper Hungary. The Slovak idiom spoken in the
last named country is simply an earlier form of Bohemian, which latter the
Slovaks of Hungary used for centuries as their literary or "biblical"
language; only within the last fifty years have they begun to employ their
proper dialect largely in literature. But still, the language is virtually
the same, Bohemians and Slovaks needing no interpreters to understand one
another, and no dictionaries mutually to read their publications. As a
matter of fact, the two idioms are much nearer than high German and low
German."
Paul Tholfsen
tells you he speaks seven languages, it's likely that six are Norwegian
>
> Scandinavian friends claim it is easy, especially between Danish and
> Norwegian (which version of it though, I don't know).
>
> S. Gadbois
>
--
Paul Tholfsen
Bellingham, WA
XYZpth...@netos.com
Please delete XYZ
FEEB
I am a native speaker in both Czech and Slovak languages. Born Czech,
living in Bohemia and Moravia till 8 years old, then getting all education
up to a high school graduation in Slovak, then University and gradschool
in Czech and English.
I do not agree with the statement, that Czechs have no problems
understanding Slovaks and vice versa. That might be more true in the
past, when Czech and Slovaks were continuously exposed to the other
language on TV and radio. But even then, some older people (my in-laws
for instance) never managed to understand Slovak completely and would ask
for translation of some more difficult words during screening of movies or
TV shows.
After the separation of Slovakia and the Czech Republic, this situation is
becoming much more wide spread. Young people are rarely exposed to the
Slovak language at all, as Czech TV screens mostly Czech and Western
movies or shows. Czech kids, that has grown in a different country (like
mine have in Canada) do not understand Slovak at all. We have a couple of
Slovak friends here and my kids, who are otherwise quite fluent in Czech
and several other languages, would prefer to talk to them in English,
despite the fact that their (the Slovak friends') English is rather
limited. Yet, they would find it easier to use English than to try to
figure out that strange Slovak language :-)
Frank Bures, <spam...@chem.utoronto.ca>
FEEB
>dot: tecka (Czech) versus botka (Slovak)
Actually "bodka".
Frank Bures, <spam...@chem.utoronto.ca>
Jack Stone
"Michelle" <m1...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:be72a8af.02071...@posting.google.com...
> Hi,
>
> Both Czech and Slovak are indeed Slavic tongues, Slovak itself
> actually derives from ancient Czech
Wow! Would you please crosspost this also to "bit.listserv.slovak-l"
newsgroup? I would love to read the responses :-)))))
Theodore M. Kloba
wrote:
>I'd say Polish-Czech is more like Fench and Italian and Polish-Slovak like
>Spanish Portuguese.
While we're making such analogies, I wonder about an analogy I've
tried to cook up in the past:
Since I started learning Lithuanian, it has occasionally come up in
conversation (with English-speaking Americans, generally) and several
times, It's been asked of me, "That's like Polish, right?"
In order to avoid a long rambling explanation, and to avoid repeating
the [often nationalistically-motivated] statements about the
differences between Baltic and Slavic languages, I'd love to have an
analogy to offer along the lines of the pl:cz=fr:it, pl:sk=sp:pr
analogies above, preferably one that includes English.
Without any real evidence, I thought maybe the Baltic and Slavic
groups are about as different as maybe the West and North Germanic
groups, so I thought maybe Polish:Lithuanian=English:Icelandic, or
maybe Polish:Lithuanian=English:Danish
Of course, most people aren't going to know the difference between
Icelandic and Danish anyway. They just know they can't understand
either.
BTW, yes I know this is silly.
PS If you know enough to answer this, what do you think about this
1981 article:
"TWO LINGUISTIC MYTHS: BALTO-SLAVIC AND COMMON BALTIC"
S. Gadbois
>> Hungarian (and vice versa); there are other letters in the alphabet,
>> the grammar is different..
Wait a minute, Hungarian is Finno-Ogrian (akin to Finnish), slovak is
slavic. One is non indo-european (Hungarian) the other is. They still
borrowed from each other?!
Val
It's of course Danish vs. Norwegian "Bokmaal".
Specially the written languages are very close.
And, the nutual understanding of Nor/Dan/Swe is
regional. People in West-Sweden has no problem
whatsoever to understand the Norwegian spoken
in Vestfold/Östfold/AAkershus, but he can not
understand Tröndsk (and, vice versa). More examples
can be given in infinitum, but You get the general idea.
Sounds like Slovak/Czech have a similar relationship.
How about Sorb/Polish??
V.
"S. Gadbois" wrote:
>
> > Le Fri, 12 Jul 2002 15:32:12 +0100,
> > iknowyougotso...@hotmail.com (Super Soul) écrivit :
> >
> >> How close are the languages Slovak and Czech? Difficult question, I
> >> know, but how mutually intelligable are they? Like the Scandinavian
> >> languages?
> >
> > I am native speaker of none of these langagues, but a Czech friend of
> > mine said to me that both languages are so close that no Czech bothers
> > to learn Slovak and vice versa. They just manage to understand each
> > other without problem (this was said to be before the separation of
> > Slovakia).
> >
> > Could you imagine such a thing between Portuguese and Spanish or Danish
> > and Swedish? Maybe it is possible between Macedonian and Bulgarian, I
> > don't know.
Val
Michelle wrote:
--snip--
>
>
> Comparing the whole matter to the Scandinavian model is certainly not
> the case, as the Scandinavian tongues (Danish, Norwegian, Swedish)
> used to be 'exactly' the same, and changed deliberately to celebrate
> their independency - historically, there was a lot of conflict among
> the three countries. So, often words are spelt differently, yet
> pronounced the same way. This model could be used in the former
> Yugoslavia - when 'new' languages appeared after the disintegration of
> the federal state:
> Serbian, Croatian, Montenegrian, Bosnian etc. Nationalism obviously
> plays a big role in this matter.
No, the Scandinavian tounges were IMO probably never 'exactly' the same
(if one does not go back before Denmark was united). The Scandianvian
languages has been different for a longer period than Chech/Slovak i
guess,
but the early written sources does not show this (the futhark has very
few
letters compared to greek or latin alphabet). The Scandinavian languages
has in my (and others) oppinion not been separated deliberately, but by
distance in a sparse populated huge geographical area - Swe/Nor/Den has
TODAY some 20 million people on an area as great approx. France+
Switzerland+BeNeLux... In A.D. 950 600km, or Sigtuna-Odense was a HUGE
distance (Stockolm and Copenhagen were nothing back then). Nidaros-
Odense
is even longer!
What You are descibing is the development of just one of the varieties
of Norwegian (Bokmaal) which 1814 was written, but not pronounced
EXACTLY as Danish. The spelling of Bokmaal, since then has been altered
to
reflect the pronounciation. Even the sounding differs: Danish have the
guttural stop and the sounding d, neither exists is Swe/Nor [Danish
could
use two more letters if they wanted, Alif from Hebrew and struck D from
Icelandic].
A Swede goes into a Taxi in Copenhagen. He tells the driver (in Swedish)
to go to a fun (='rolig') place. The driver takes him to the cementary
('rolig' in Danish means calm).
A male tourist from Stockholm (Sweden) visits Varberg (Sweden). He
starts
a discussion over the local girls with a 'native'. The native points out
a girl, and says: "Beware, she is boring ('kelig')". The guy from
Stockholm answers: "Are You mad? I LIKE a cuddlesome ('kelig') girl".
And noone outside Denmark understand Danish numbers (Danish use the base
20, compare French).
It's not always THAT easy to be Scandinavian - sometimes the words means
VERY different things, also spelled and pronounced exactly the same!
V
Radovan Garabik
: Michelle wrote:
:> Slovak is indeed very similar to Czech (cut) However, already now you
:> can see that it is very difficult for those born after the separation to
:> actually
:> understand.
: This sounds interesting. According to z Czech I met a year or so ago,
: Czechs still hear enough Slovak in everyday life so that it's not that
: hard to understand (he said even when the two countries were one young
: children might have problems but that after age 10 or so it wasn't an
: issue). On the other How would Czech tv shows or movies (presuming
: they're allowed on Slovak TV) be shown? dubbed? lektor (aka: most hideous
: phenomenon in the world)? subtitles? nothing? What about Slovak
left in original.
There is now an interesting phenomenon: a new TV channel (TV Joj) appeared on
Slovak scene, an offshot of popular Czech TV Nova. As such, it takes
90%+ from TV Nova. That means USA movies dubbed into Czech. According to Slovak
law regarding TV transmission, at least 80% of broadcasting time has to
be in Slovak. So TV Joj, instead of expensive re-dubbing the movies into
Slovak, chose to subtitle the USA movies with Czech dubbing with Slovak
subtitles. One does not know if it is more appropriate to cry or to
laugh...
: programming shown on Czech TV?
The same, left in original.
Only children broadcasting for youngest children has always been dubbed.
: Do Slovaks have to explicitly learn Czech (as in sit thru classroom
: lessons or work thru a textbook?) what about vice versa?
no, and there were never Czech/Slovak classrooms for the opposite
nation.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
| Radovan Garabik http://melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk/~garabik |
| __..--^^^--..__ garabik @ fmph . uniba . sk |
-----------------------------------------------------------
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Radovan Garabik
: Hi,
: Slovak is indeed very similar to Czech, but I would argue the
: similarity is as distance as Spanish and Portuguese. Having been born
: in Czechoslovakia myself, I know that all was done to keep the country
: totally bilingual,
if fact, the country was NOT bilingual at all (bilingualism would mean
everyone would speak those two languages). People just were exposed to
the other language so they had no problems understanding it
Radovan Garabik
to give you an idea of the differences, I picked up this (random) czech
article and included a translation into what would Slovak understand:
(true, news articles are not quite general sample of a speech, and also
it just happened that this article does not contain any of those words
that are completely different in cz and sk, but anyway...)
cz:
Prezident Václav Havel musel předčasně ukončit návštěvu Francie a vrací
se zpět do vlasti. Urychlený návrat vyžaduje zhoršení jeho zdravotního
stavu. Jak informuje ČTK, prezident, který měl být ve Francii tři dny u
příležitosti konání České kulturní sezóny v této zemi, bude pravděpodobně
přímo z letiště převezen do nemocnice ve Střešovicích.
Slovak would understand it like this:
Prezident Václav Havel musel predčasne ukončiť návštevu Francúzska[1] a vracia
sa späť do vlasti. Urýchlený návrat vyžaduje zhoršenie jeho zdravotného
stavu. Ako[2] informuje ČTK, prezident, ktorý mal byť vo Francúzsku tri dni pri[3]
príležitosti konania Českej kultúrnej sezóny v tejto zemi[4], bude pravdepodobne
priamo z letiska[5] prevezený do nemocnine v Strešoviciach.
[1] France is Francie in cz, Francúzsko in sk. Unless you know it, some
guessing might be involved (but both -ia/ie and -sko are used as country
suffixes in both languages, cz just uses -ie much more often than -sko,
sk uses -sko much more often than -ia, so this would not be that bad)
[2] "jak" (as) is also slovak word, it is just poetic/archaic/colloquial.
So slovak native speaker would certainly know it (just not use it in a
professional news article), but in the opposite direction czechs could
have troubles guessing "ako"
[3] different preposition in this phrase. However, both "u" and "pri"
means about the same (roughly translated by english "by"), so it just
sounds strange but is no puzzle.
[4] slovaks would say "krajine". cz "země" means "country", but
also "earth". In sk, using "zem" (earth) for courty is archaic and
awkward. However, "krajina" in czech also means "country", is just not
used often.
[5] cz uses -ště as suffix to create place names. Slovak uses -šte very
rarely, if has often -sko where czech has -ště. Again, the opposite
direction is more difficult for czechs.
Of course, it is different with spoken language - czech has peculiar
intonation, quite different from standard Slovak intonation, and unless
used to, it can pose troubles. For example, Eastern slovak dialects have
quite different (compared to standard slovak) intonation and stress pattern,
and it is rather difficult and requires a lot of attention to follow
rapidly speaking eastern slovak (even if he speaks standard slovak, just
with eastern accent)
To compare with polish, this is a random polish news article, translated
into Slovak:
original:
Od listopada bezrobocie przestanie rosnąć - obiecał wczoraj wicepremier Grzegorz
Kołodko. Po posiedzeniu rządu przedstawił swój długo oczekiwany plan
antykryzysowy, wcześniej zaakceptowany przez Radę Ministrów.
Niestety, konkretów poskąpił. Uspokajał, że polityka gospodarcza będzie
kontynuowana, a dyscyplina finansów utrzymana. Jednocześnie wdrożony zostanie plan,
którego głównym celem jest ożywienie produkcji i zmniejszenie bezrobocia.
translation (very lame, I tried to translate it as closely as possible,
as much as my rather poor polish allowed):
Od novembra nezamestnanosť prestane rásť - sľúbil včera vicepremiér Gregor
Kołodko. Po zasadaní vlády predstavil svoj dlho očakávaný antikrízový
plán, včaššie akceptovaný Radou Ministrov.
Bohužiaľ, na konkrétne (veci) bol skúpi. Upokojoval, že hospodárska politika bude
pokračovať, a disciplína financií udržaná. Súčasne bude zavedený plán,
ktorého hlavným cieľom je oživenie produkcie a zmenšenie nezamestnanosti.
however, an uninformed Slovak would understand it like this:
(words in parentheses are those that he might guess after some
pondering, but not on-the-fly during conversation)
Od ??????[1] ???????[2] prestane (rásť) - (obecal)[3] včera vicepremiér Gregor
Kołodko. Po posedení[4] (rady)[5] predstavil svoj dlho očakávaný antikrízový
plán[6], (včaššie) akceptovaný pre[7] Radu Ministrov.
???????, (konkrét...) ???????. Upokojoval, že hospodárska politika (bude)
?????????, a disciplína (financií) ???????. ??????? ???????? zostane[8] plán,
ktorého hlavným cieľom je oživenie produkcie a zmenšenie ???????[2].
[1] month names are puzzle - Polish (and Czech) uses slavic forms, while
Slovak uses romance version. So unless you know that listopad meand
november, you have no chance. This time the opposite direction would be
easier.
[2] for "unemploynment", Polish uses "bezrobocie" (without-work), while
slovak uses "nezamestnanosť" (no-employnment). Our Slovak would probably
parse "bezrobocie" as consisting of preposition "bez" (without), and
"robota" (work, labour) and probably guess the correct meaning
[3] obecať (to promise) is very, very archaic word in Slovak, and
many people would probably not know it.
[4] sk "posedenie" is an informal meating. (Formal) government session would
be called "zasadanie"
[5] pl "rząd" (government) sounds like Slovak "rada" (council, also advice)
or "rad" (queue) or "riad" (dishes, also root of many other words
meaning "true" etc...). Tough. If our Slovak guesses "rada", he would be
quite close.
[6] order of adjectives is noun+adjective in pl, adjective+noun in sk
and cz (noun+adjective is very archaic). Therefore pl "plan antykryzysowy"
is translated as "antikrízový plán"
[7] misleading preposition. Polish version means "accepted by ...", while
Slovak would parse it as "accepted for ..." which is quite different
meaning.
[8] again misleading similarity. Polish "zostanie" is "will become",
while slovak "zostane" is "will stay".
Radovan Garabik
: michael farris <m...@amu.edu.pl> wrote in message news:<3D32B9AE...@amu.edu.pl>...
: so. We were learning how to pronounce the various diacritical signs,
: some of which adopted from Hungarian. In Literature lessons, we had
such as? The only diacritics that is common between hungarian and Slovak
are acute accents, and they are the same as in Czech (in fact, created
by Jan Hus)
: read some books written in Slovak (which I remember caused a lot of
: difficulties, as there was always a vast amount of words you simply
I do not know, but Czech books were never problems for me.
Not at all. There are many different words, true, but abou 99% of
vocabulary is the same. And out of the remaining 1%, 50% can be
guessed. The rest you just learn by immersion :-)
: could not understand). I would agree that if spoken, it may sound very
: similar, but there are significant difficulties and I would doubt that
: a native Czech speaker could put together, say professional business
: letter in standard Slovak..
not without training, certainly. I'd say the same as a native norwegian speaker
who has seen only Bokmål in his/her life could not put together a
professional letter in Nynorsk.
Radovan Garabik
and being curios about the differences between various dialects, I
bothered some people to translate it into their native ones.
There is standard Slovak, 3 different Slovak dialects, and standard Czech
(figuring out which is which is left as an excercise to the reader :-) -
different orthography gives a clue, however). Also notice that these
are not quite word-for-word translations.
1: Len vám scem povídat jaký sem degesh zabrzdený.
2: Len vám chcem povedať aký som degesh zabrzdený.
3: Ta ľen vam chcem povedzec jaky som degesh zabrzdeny.
4: Jen vám chci říci, jaký jsem tupec zabrzdený.
5: Len vám stem povedať jaký som tupec zabrzdený..
1: trecí týdeň rátám také integráli a furt to píše že lost of precision a
2: tretí týždeň rátam také integrály a stále to píše že lost of precision a
3: treci tydzeň rachujem take integrali a furtom to piše že lost of precision a
4: třetí týden počítám takové integrály a stále to píše, že lost of precision a
5: tretí týždeň rátam také integrály a stále to píše že lost of precision a
1: také podobné hlášky. Sem sa to snažil riešit rúznýma nastaveňáma počtu
2: také podobné hlášky. Som sa to snažil riešiť rôznymi nastaveniami počtu
3: take dajake hlašky. Som še to snažil rešic šelijakyma nastaveňami počtu
4: takové podobné hlášky. Snažil jsem se to řešit různými nastavěními počtu
5: také podobné hlášky. Som sa to snažev riešiť róznými nastaveňámi počtu
1: iterácií a tak, až to dospelo do štádia že mi to neská rátalo celú noc,
2: iterácií a tak, až to dospelo do štádia že mi to dnes rátalo celú noc,
3: iteracii a tak, nakonec to dospelo do štadiuma, že mi to dneška rachovalo calu noc,
4: iterací a tak podobně, až to dospělo do stadia, že mi to dnes počítalo celou noc,
5: iterácií a tak, až to dospelo do štádia že mi to neská rátalo celú noc,
1: nic nedorátalo a aj tak to písalo tí hlášky.
2: nič nedorátalo a aj tak to písalo tie hlášky.
3: nič nezrachovalo aj tak to pisalo tote hlašky
4: nic nedopočítalo a i tak to psalo ty hlášky.
5: ništ nedorátalo a aj tak to písalo tí hlášky.
1: A čulek sem si uvedomil, že chyba je v tem že dané integrály asi naozaj
2: A teraz som si uvedomil, že chyba je v tom že dané integrály asi naozaj
3: A teraz som sebe uvedomil, ze chyba je f tom, že dane integrali asik naozaj
4: A teď jsem si uvědomil, že chyba je v tom, že dané integrály asi opravdu
5: A čil som si uvedomev, že chyba je v tom že dané integrály asi naozaj
1: divergujú, lebo sem z ósmích možností vybral akurát také dve jadrá, pre
2: divergujú, lebo som z ôsmych možností vybral akurát také dve jadrá, pre
3: diverguju, bo z osmich možnosci som vybral akurat take dva jadra, pre
4: divergují, protože jsem z osmi možností vybral akorát takové dvě jadra, pro
5: divergujú, lebo som z ósmích možností vybrav akurát také dve jadrá, pre
1: keré neni dvojitý pozitrónový rozpad energeticky možný.
2: ktoré nie je dvojitý pozitrónový rozpad energeticky možný.
3: chtore neni dvojity pozitrónový rozpad energeticku možny.
4: které není dvojitý pozitronový rozpad energeticky možný.
5: keré neni dvojitý pozitrónový rozpad energeticky možný.
1: No neni sem já vúl?
2: No nie som ja vôl?
3: Ta nesom durak?
4: No nejsem já vůl?
5: No neni som já vól?
1: sem
2: som
3: som
4: jsem
5: som
1: ale pesničky máme pjekné
2: ale pesničky máme pekné.
3: ale špivanky mame šumne.
4: ale písničky máme pěkne.
5: ale pesničky máme pekné.
Henry Polard
what Prof. Henry Gleason said long ago:
³Ninety percent of mutual intelligibility is willingness to intellege.²
It seems that when Czechosolvakia existed, Czechs and Slovaks wanted
very much to communicate with each other. Now that the countries are
separated, will the desire to comunicate with each other diminish, along
with the mutual intelligibility of Czech and Slovak?
--
Henry Polard || Grant me the company of those who seek truth, and
protect me from those who have found it.
John Catlow
Interesting information, thanks!
John
Rich Alderson
> PS If you know enough to answer this, what do you think about this 1981
> article:
> "TWO LINGUISTIC MYTHS: BALTO-SLAVIC AND COMMON BALTIC"
That it was written by a Baltic chauvinist (defined as someone who refuses to
accept that the Baltic languages could have any close connection to the Slavic
languages, denying any linguistic finding that says otherwise). Similar things
are written with respect to other Indo-European languages or subfamilies.
Note follow-ups.
--
Rich Alderson alders...@panix.com
"You get what anybody gets. You get a lifetime." --Death, of the Endless
Rich Alderson
> Wait a minute, Hungarian is Finno-Ogrian (akin to Finnish), slovak is slavic.
> One is non indo-european (Hungarian) the other is. They still borrowed from
> each other?!
Of course. Languages borrow from each other without recourse to geneaology, or
English would not contain words like "mocassin" (Algoonquian), "chocolate"
(Uto-Aztecan), or "igloo" (Eskimo-Aleutian). Why would you think otherwise?
Wally Keeler
"Super Soul" <iknowyougotso...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1ff7sf0.19f9gqems5z48N%iknowyougotso...@hotmail.com...
S. Gadbois
I think she meant bilingual "à la canadienne". Some sociolinguists would say
that Canada and the former Czechoslovakia are/were bilingual but not
diglossic.
s63...@uottawa.ca
: On Sat, 13 Jul 2002 17:34:39 GMT, s63...@UOTTAWA.CA wrote:
:>In soc.culture.czecho-slovak Super Soul
: <iknowyougotso...@hotmail.com> wrote:
:>: How close are the languages Slovak and Czech? Difficult question, I
:>: know, but how mutually intelligable are they? Like the Scandinavian
:>: languages?
:>
:>The difference has been described as less than that between Scottish-
:>English and England-English.
: [...]Slovak children born abroad, although very fluent speakers of
: Slovak, do not understand Slovak[...]
Igor Gazdik has not only painted all Slovak children born abroad with
one brush, but has also diagnosed them all with Wernicke's aphasia(!).
Only the acquired brain lesion can result in fluent speech of a
language and yet total incomprehension of spoken speech in the same
language.
Otto Mann
s63...@uottawa.ca
: Igor Gazdik writes:
:>
:>On Sat, 13 Jul 2002 17:34:39 GMT, s63...@UOTTAWA.CA wrote:
:>>In soc.culture.czecho-slovak Super Soul
:><iknowyougotso...@hotmail.com> wrote:
:>>: How close are the languages Slovak and Czech? Difficult question, I
:>>: know, but how mutually intelligable are they? Like the Scandinavian
:>>: languages?
:>>The difference has been described as less than that between Scottish-
:>>English and England-English.
:>[...]Let us say that the difference between Slovak and Czech is
:>greater than is the difference between Swedish and Norwegian in
:>terms of comprehensibility. Czechs do "not understand" Slovak.
:>Slovak children born abroad, although very fluent speakers of
:>Slovak, do not understand Slovak.
: I presume your last word is a typo and you mean "do not
: understand Czech." That is quite easily confirmed and I can attest
: from my own and others' experience that it is true.
: In Slovakia, Slovaks are constantly exposed to Czech media and
: learn to understand the words foreign to Slovak. But growing up in a
: Canadian/ American or other culture where the Czech and Slovak
: communities often do not mingle, our kids learn Slovak well and hardly
: understand Czech at all.
There is a significant number of children of parents with Slovak
ethnicity who understand both Czech and Slovak in Canada.
Otto Mann
s63...@uottawa.ca
: s63...@uottawa.ca wrote in message ...
: |In soc.culture.czecho-slovak Super Soul
: <iknowyougotso...@hotmail.com> wrote:
: |: How close are the languages Slovak and Czech? Difficult
: question, I
: |: know, but how mutually intelligable are they? Like the
: Scandinavian
: |: languages?
: |
: |The difference has been described as less than that between
: Scottish-
: |English and England-English.
: It's obvious that Mr Mann knows very little about either the
: Czech or Slovak languages.
It is obvious that Mr Volek knows very little about supporting
his claims with evidence.
Otto Mann
s63...@uottawa.ca
: s63...@UOTTAWA.CA wrote:
:>
:> There is a significant number of children of parents with Slovak
:> ethnicity who understand both Czech and Slovak in Canada.
:> Otto Mann
: Can you give some exact figures and sources?
Yes.
: As well as your definition of the level of significance??
My post, quoted above in response to the ass. professor's claim
that children of parents of Slovak ethnicity living in Canada
"hardly understand Czech at all," refers to a significant _number_
of children of parents with Slovak ethnicity who understand both
Czech and Slovak. A "significant" number is one that is caused
by something other than mere chance, in other words, it is not
by chance that there children of parents of Slovak ethnicity living
in Canada who understand Slovak, but rather it is due to the feeling
of cultural proximity or identity among individuals of the
aforementioned ethncities.
Otto Mann
s63...@uottawa.ca
: Jan George Frajkor <gfra...@CCS.CARLETON.CA> wrote:
: : s63...@UOTTAWA.CA wrote:
: :>
: :> There is a significant number of children of parents with Slovak
: :> ethnicity who understand both Czech and Slovak in Canada.
: :> Otto Mann
: : Can you give some exact figures and sources?
: Yes.
: : As well as your definition of the level of significance??
: My post, quoted above in response to the ass. professor's claim
: that children of parents of Slovak ethnicity living in Canada
: "hardly understand Czech at all," refers to a significant _number_
: of children of parents with Slovak ethnicity who understand both
: Czech and Slovak. A "significant" number is one that is caused
: by something other than mere chance, in other words, it is not
: by chance that there children of parents of Slovak ethnicity living
: in Canada who understand Slovak, but rather it is due to the feeling
^^^^^^
[Should read "Czech". OM]
: of cultural proximity or identity among individuals of the
: aforementioned ethncities.
: Otto Mann
lubos
The ass. professor knows nothing about that, just kiding
s63...@uottawa.ca
:> :> There is a significant number of children of parents with Slovak
:> :> ethnicity who understand both Czech and Slovak in Canada.
:> :> Otto Mann
:> : Can you give some exact figures and sources?
:> Yes.
: Oh goody. There are 18-thousand or so Slovaks in Canada according to
: the last published census, and probably about 50-thousand if you count
: one-parent-Slovak families. How many of these have children who speak
: both languages?
The ass. professor has notoriously changed his premise. If one notes
above the issue was whether there are children of parents with Slovak
ethnicity in Canada who _understand_ both Czech and Slovak. The ass.
professor's premise, conveniently deleted above, was that these
children "hardly understand Czech at all." Given that there is a
relatively large number of individuals of Czech and Slovak ethnicity
who gather socially because of a feeling of cultural proximity or
identity, the ass. professor's premise is false and likely clouded
by political ideology. It would be inappropriate to list the names
of third parties in this forum without their consent.
Otto Mann
Jugoslav Dujic
news:m4h3ha...@127.0.0.1...
Since I find the post very interesting, I'll try to add my Serbocroatian
viewpoint.
First, I'll try to translate it to English (just by guessing -- I'm not familiar
at all
with Slovak/Czech). (I won't apply English grammar rules but rather try to
be literal):
President Vaclav Havel had to[1] earlier finish visit[2] to the France and
return
again /to the country/? [3]. Premature return is caused [4] by worsening of his
health condition. As informs ČTK, president, who mal /supposed to/? [5] be in
France three days during príležitosti konania??? [6] of Chech cultural season
in that country, will be immediately[7] priamo?? [8] with an airplain
transferred
to hospital in Strešovici.
[1] If it means "had to", musel is unknown to SC (Serbocroatian). Does it
originate from German "muss"?
[2] Just a guess from context -- "návštevu" doesn't associate to anything here.
SC for "visit" is "posjeta"
[3] do vlasti -- to the country? I'm not sure -- in SC "vlast" means authority,
government.
[4] Urýchlený -- premature???, vyžaduje -- caused?? -- really a guess from
context. "vyžaduje" vaguely resembles SC "izaziva" (provokes; causes) but
I'm not sure.
[5] "mal", if meaning "should have", has a parallel in SC, "mogao" but meaning
"could have"
[6] príležitosti konania -- really cannot find a similarity; from the context,
it's
obvious that it's some celebration or opening but can't guess exact meaning
[7] Is "pravdepodobne" really "immediately" or what? Both parts of compound
word are SC also, but the meaning is "justice" ("pravda")+"appropriate"
("podoban") -- the combination doesn't make sense.
[8] if I guessed "pravdepodobne" wrong, then I don't know what "přímo" is.
--
Jugoslav
Javier BF
Well, the Portuguese seem to have little problem in understanding
Spanish without training, but nothing similar can be said
the opposite way, at least at the oral level.
Radovan Garabik
: "Radovan Garabik" <sp...@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk> wrote in message
muset/musieť indeed means "to have to", "must"
: originate from German "muss"?
I have no idea, Polish has "musieć", Russian IMHO does not have a cognate,
what is interesting is that in hungarian it is "muszáj"
: [2] Just a guess from context -- "návštevu" doesn't associate to anything here.
: SC for "visit" is "posjeta"
it is "visit". In Russian, "visit" is "посещение"
: [3] do vlasti -- to the country? I'm not sure -- in SC "vlast" means authority,
: government.
as in Russian (власть). However, cz/sk vlast/vlasť means fatherland
In Russian fatherland is "Родина".
However, in cz/sk "rodina" means "family".
"family" can be also called "família" (colloquial,slang), but do not
mix up with Russian "фамилия" (surname).
Learning Russian is fun sometimes :-)
: [4] Urýchlený -- premature???, vyžaduje -- caused?? -- really a guess from
Urýchlený=sped up, quickened (from rýchly=fast)
vyžaduje=requires (3 person singular, present tense), from infinitive vyžadovať,
which in turn is derived from žádat/žiadať (to demand)
: context. "vyžaduje" vaguely resembles SC "izaziva" (provokes; causes) but
: I'm not sure.
: [5] "mal", if meaning "should have", has a parallel in SC, "mogao" but meaning
: "could have"
"měl být/mal byť" means "should have been". "mít/mať" usually meant "to have,
possess", but it is also an auxiliary verb roughly corresponding to
English "should". It is in past tense here.
: [6] príležitosti konania -- really cannot find a similarity; from the context,
: it's
: obvious that it's some celebration or opening but can't guess exact meaning
that's a phrase - príležitosť=opportunity,occasion; konanie=action
"pri príležitosti konania" is usually translated into english as
"during" :-) (or "at the occasion of")
: [7] Is "pravdepodobne" really "immediately" or what? Both parts of compound
: word are SC also, but the meaning is "justice" ("pravda")+"appropriate"
: ("podoban") -- the combination doesn't make sense.
pravda=truth, verity
podobný=similar, podobne=similarly
pravdepodobne=probably
curiously, polish "podobać sie" would be parsed by Czechs/Slovaks
as "podobat se/podobať sa" (be similar to), while in fact it means
something like "to be liked by" (russian нравиться),
so while a Pole says "Ona sie mi podoba" (I like her),
Czech/Slovak would understand it as "Ona se/sa mi podobá"
(She looks like me)
: [8] if I guessed "pravdepodobne" wrong, then I don't know what "přímo" is.
přímo/priamo=directly, straight
Otherwise, your translation is OK.
Radovan Garabik
: Since I find the post very interesting, I'll try to add my Serbocroatian
: viewpoint.
...
And now I am adding the reverse process.
Tis is a random Serbocroatian article (indeed, I do not know
if it is serbian or croatian, since the newspaper it is from is
called "Nezavisni dnevnik V*ij*esti" but is located in .yu
domain)
Jedna 14-godišnja palestinska djevojčica ubijena je
juče u Hebronu, na Zapadnoj obali, kada su jevrejski doseljenici
otvorili vatru na kuće u starom dijelu grada, saopštili su palestinski
bolnički izvori.
Jevreji su otvorili vatru pošto su sahranili svoje rođake poginule u
nedavnim sukobima. Nevin Musa Džamdžum ubijena je dok se nalazila na balkonu
svoje kuće, a njen brat je lakše ranjen, saopštili su izvori iz bolnice Ahli.
Prema odredbama sporazuma sa palestinskom upravom, Izraelci su se 80
odsto evakuisali iz Hebrona, ali i dalje drže jednu enklavu, gdje živi oko 600
jevrejskih naseljenika okruženih sa oko 120.000 Palestinaca.
Now what I understand out of this (translated into slovak, words that
I undertand only from context are in curly brackets {}):
Jedno 14-{ročné} palestínske dievča je zabité
?????? v Hebrone, na Západnej ?????, keď ?? hebrejskí osadníci[1]
otvorili {streľbu}[2] ????? ?? ?????????[3] svojich rodákov[4] ktorí[5] zahynuli v
nedávnom ??????. ?????? Musa Džamdžum zabitá je[6] ??? sa {nachádzala}[7] na balkóne
svojej ????, a {jej} brat je ľahšie zranený, {oznámili}[8] ?? ?????? z nemocnice Ahli.
????? ???????? ???????? ?? palestínskym {správou}[9], Izraelci ?? ?? 80
????? evakuovali? z Hebrona, ale aj ďalej držia jednu enklávu, kde žije okolo 600
hebrejských osadníkov[1] obkrúžených[10] ?? okolo 120 000 Palestíncami.
In english it would be:
One 14-(year old) palestinian girl is killed
??????? in Hebron, at Western ?????, when hebrew settlers
opened {fire} ????? ?? ????????? their "fellow citizens" who perished in
recent ??????. ?????? Musa Džamdžum is killed ??? was present on balcony
of her ????, and {her} brother is lightly injured, announced ?? ?????? from Ahli hospital.
????? ???????? ???????? ?? palestinian {administration}, Israelis ?? ?? 80
evacuated? from Hebron, but [they] also longer hold one enclave, where live about 600
hebrew settlers surrounded by 120 000 Palestinians.
[1] doseljenici, naseljenika - all sounds familiar, similar to "osadník"
(settler) where o- is a prefix and also "do-", "na-" are common verb prefixes
in Slovak, so I immediatly see the root of the word (seljeni-), looking
similar to "seľo" which in some slovak dialects means "village,
settlement"
[2] "vatra" in Slovak is campfire.
[3] "sahranili" looks suspiciously like slovak "zachránili" ([they] saved)
but context seems to rule this out.
[4] archaism, rodák is native coming from the same country as you
[5] different conjugation, conjuction "ktorí" (which) is needed in
Slovak
[6] "je" in slovak is 3rd person singular, present tense from "to be"
(is). By now, I start to suspect that "je" in serbocroatian means
something different.
[7] czech "nalézat se" is "to occur (somewhere)". No slovak cognate
[8] "saopštili" sound similar to Russian "сообщили" ([they] announced).
no Slovak cognate.
[9] "upravom" looks similar to Russian "управлением" (administration,
instrumentalis), gives further hint to slovak "správa" (administration)
[10] nobody would say "obkrúžených" (circled) here.
"obkolesených" (surrounded) would be used.
There are also many spurious "sa" words, which in Slovak comes from
reflexive verbs but I have no idea what is their function here
(they just seem to stick out in all inappropriate places)
Jugoslav Dujic
| Jugoslav Dujic <jdujic...@uns.ns.ac.yu> wrote:
|
| : Since I find the post very interesting, I'll try to add my Serbocroatian
| : viewpoint.
| ...
|
| And now I am adding the reverse process.
| Tis is a random Serbocroatian article (indeed, I do not know
| if it is serbian or croatian, since the newspaper it is from is
| called "Nezavisni dnevnik V*ij*esti" but is located in .yu
| domain)
[Snipped, translation below]
| Jedno 14-{ročné} palestínske dievča je zabité
| ?????? v Hebrone, na Západnej ?????, keď ?? hebrejskí osadníci[1]
| otvorili {streľbu}[2] ????? ?? ?????????[3] svojich rodákov[4] ktorí[5]
zahynuli v
| nedávnom ??????. ?????? Musa Džamdžum zabitá je[6] ??? sa {nachádzala}[7] na
balkóne
| svojej ????, a {jej} brat je ľahšie zranený, {oznámili}[8] ?? ?????? z
nemocnice Ahli.
| ????? ???????? ???????? ?? palestínskym {správou}[9], Izraelci ?? ?? 80
| ????? evakuovali? z Hebrona, ale aj ďalej držia jednu enklávu, kde žije okolo
600
| hebrejských osadníkov[1] obkrúžených[10] ?? okolo 120 000 Palestíncami.
|
| In english it would be:
| One 14-(year old) palestinian girl is killed
| ??????? in Hebron, at Western ?????, when hebrew settlers
| opened {fire} ????? ?? ????????? their "fellow citizens" who perished in
| recent ??????. ?????? Musa Džamdžum is killed ??? was present on balcony
| of her ????, and {her} brother is lightly injured, announced ?? ?????? from
Ahli hospital.
| ????? ???????? ???????? ?? palestinian {administration}, Israelis ?? ?? 80
| evacuated? from Hebron, but [they] also longer hold one enclave, where live
about 600
| hebrew settlers surrounded by 120 000 Palestinians.
juče = yesterday.
| [1] doseljenici, naseljenika - all sounds familiar, similar to "osadník"
| (settler) where o- is a prefix and also "do-", "na-" are common verb prefixes
| in Slovak, so I immediatly see the root of the word (seljeni-), looking
| similar to "seľo" which in some slovak dialects means "village,
| settlement"
Yes.
| [2] "vatra" in Slovak is campfire.
In SC too, but also "gunfire". "Otvoriti vatru" = "start gunfire".
| [3] "sahranili" looks suspiciously like slovak "zachránili" ([they] saved)
| but context seems to rule this out.
The meaning is "have burried" (only in sense "a dead man"). AFAIK most
east and west Slavic have so/sa/za+hranit meaning "save"
but in SC that deviated to this meaning; I don't know how. Well,
they did kinda _save_ him, aren't they?
| [4] archaism, rodák is native coming from the same country as you
"Rođak" is "relative"; "zemljak" is "countrymen". "Rod" in SC
tends to have more narrow meaning than "tribe" or "nation" in
Russian or Slovak (although it can be used in this sense too) --
it's closer to (wide) "family".
| [5] different conjugation, conjuction "ktorí" (which) is needed in
| Slovak
Past participle (poginuli) can still have adjective meaning in SC
as in English, although it's far less used. In common speech
construction "koji su poginuli" (ktorí zahynuli) will be bit more frequent.
| [6] "je" in slovak is 3rd person singular, present tense from "to be"
| (is). By now, I start to suspect that "je" in serbocroatian means
| something different.
In SC too, but it's grammatical difference. Since PP is an adjective,
past tense must be formed with present of auxiliary verb "to be" = "je",
i.e. "Ja *sam* radio" = "I worked"
| [7] czech "nalézat se" is "to occur (somewhere)". No slovak cognate
Yes. Btw, strangely French has "trouver" = find / "se trouver" = to be
located, with the same usage as in SC.
| [8] "saopštili" sound similar to Russian "сообщили" ([they] announced).
| no Slovak cognate.
Yes.
| [9] "upravom" looks similar to Russian "управлением" (administration,
| instrumentalis), gives further hint to slovak "správa" (administration)
Yes.
| [10] nobody would say "obkrúžených" (circled) here.
| "obkolesených" (surrounded) would be used.
"Opkoljeni" is a synonym. "Okruženi" does mean "circled" too.
| There are also many spurious "sa" words, which in Slovak comes from
| reflexive verbs but I have no idea what is their function here
| (they just seem to stick out in all inappropriate places)
"Se" forms reflexive verbs too, but they're very frequent in SC.
"su se evakuisali" means "have evacuated themselves". ("Su" is
"to be" in 3rd person singular, see above). Slightly OT, reflexive
verbs are used for impersonal speech, i.e. where Englishmen would
use passive. For example, "to evacuate oneself" makes sense (although
incorrect in English), but in SC it's possible to say even, e.g. "umiralo se na
hiljade" -- literally "It died oneself in thousands", meaning, "[people]
died in thousands". Although "umirati" (die) is not transitive (and thus not
reflexive), the construction above is possible in 3rd person singular
neutrum to indicate passive voice meaning.
| Jedna 14-godišnja palestinska djevojčica ubijena je
| juče u Hebronu, na Zapadnoj obali, kada su jevrejski doseljenici
| otvorili vatru na kuće u starom dijelu grada, saopštili su palestinski
| bolnički izvori.
| Jevreji su otvorili vatru pošto su sahranili svoje rođake poginule u
| nedavnim sukobima. Nevin Musa Džamdžum ubijena je dok se nalazila na balkonu
| svoje kuće, a njen brat je lakše ranjen, saopštili su izvori iz bolnice Ahli.
| Prema odredbama sporazuma sa palestinskom upravom, Izraelci su se 80
| odsto evakuisali iz Hebrona, ali i dalje drže jednu enklavu, gdje živi oko 600
| jevrejskih naseljenika okruženih sa oko 120.000 Palestinaca.
|
| In english it would be:
One 14-(year old) palestinian girl is killed
yesterday in Hebron, at Western coast, when hebrew settlers
opened {fire} at houses in old part of town, announced Palestinian hospital
sources.
Hebrew settlers opened fire after {having} burried their relatives [who]
perished in
recent clashes. Innocent Musa Džamdžum was killed while was present on balcony
of her house, and {her} brother is lightly injured, announced sources from Ahli
hospital.
According to terms of agreement with palestinian {administration}, Israelis have
80
percent evacuated from Hebron, but [they] also longer hold one enclave, where
live about 600
hebrew settlers surrounded by 120 000 Palestinians.
--
Jugoslav
___________
www.geocities.com/jdujic
Wiktor S.
> Tis is a random Serbocroatian article (indeed, I do not know
> if it is serbian or croatian, since the newspaper it is from is
> called "Nezavisni dnevnik V*ij*esti" but is located in .yu
> domain)
>
> Jedna 14-godišnja palestinska djevojčica ubijena je
> juče u Hebronu, na Zapadnoj obali, kada su jevrejski doseljenici
> otvorili vatru na kuće u starom dijelu grada, saopštili su palestinski
> bolnički izvori.
> Jevreji su otvorili vatru pošto su sahranili svoje rođake poginule u
> nedavnim sukobima. Nevin Musa Džamdžum ubijena je dok se nalazila na
balkonu
> svoje kuće, a njen brat je lakše ranjen, saopštili su izvori iz bolnice
Ahli.
> Prema odredbama sporazuma sa palestinskom upravom, Izraelci su se 80
> odsto evakuisali iz Hebrona, ali i dalje drže jednu enklavu, gdje živi oko
600
> jevrejskih naseljenika okruženih sa oko 120.000 Palestinaca.
>
> Now what I understand out of this (translated into slovak, words that
> I undertand only from context are in curly brackets {}):
The same "translated" into Polish:
Jedna [1] 14-letnia[R] palestyńska dziewczynka została[2] zabita ??? w
Hebronie, na zachodniej[R] ???, gdy? izraelscy[R] {żołnierze} otworzyli
{ogień} na ??? w starej dzielnicy? miasta[3], ??? palestyński ??? ???.
Izraelici[R] otworzyli {ogień} ??? zranili swoich rodaków ??? ??? ???. ???
Musa Džamdžum zabita ??? ??? została[2] znaleziona na balkonie swojej ???,
a[4] jej brat jest lżej ranny, ??? ??? z ??? Ahli.
??? ??? ??? palestyńskim ??? Izraelici ??? ??? 80 ??? ewakuowali z Hebrona,
ale dalej ??? jedną enklawę, w której[5] żyje około 600 żydowskich ???
okrążonych przez[2] około 120.000 Palestyńczyków.
[1] jedna (one) would be normally omitted
[R] those words I know from Russian
[2] added word
[3] gród is archaic
[4] awkward
[5] "w której" fits better in this context than "gdzie"
{} word guessed from context
--
Azarien
Radovan Garabik
: Jugoslav Dujic <jdujic...@uns.ns.ac.yu> wrote:
:
: : Since I find the post very interesting, I'll try to add my Serbocroatian
: : viewpoint.
: ...
: And now I am adding the reverse process.
: Tis is a random Serbocroatian article (indeed, I do not know
: if it is serbian or croatian, since the newspaper it is from is
: called "Nezavisni dnevnik V*ij*esti" but is located in .yu
: domain)
of course I messed up and two lines are missing from my translation...
so this is corrected version
Jedna 14-godišnja palestinska djevojčica ubijena je
juče u Hebronu, na Zapadnoj obali, kada su jevrejski doseljenici
otvorili vatru na kuće u starom dijelu grada, saopštili su palestinski
bolnički izvori.
Jevreji su otvorili vatru pošto su sahranili svoje rođake poginule u
nedavnim sukobima. Nevin Musa Džamdžum ubijena je dok se nalazila na balkonu
svoje kuće, a njen brat je lakše ranjen, saopštili su izvori iz bolnice Ahli.
Prema odredbama sporazuma sa palestinskom upravom, Izraelci su se 80
odsto evakuisali iz Hebrona, ali i dalje drže jednu enklavu, gdje živi oko 600
jevrejskih naseljenika okruženih sa oko 120.000 Palestinaca.
Now what I understand out of this (translated into slovak, words that
I undertand only from context are in curly brackets {}):
Jedno 14-{ročné} palestínske dievča je zabité
?????? v Hebrone, na Západnej ?????, keď ?? hebrejskí osadníci[1]
otvorili {streľbu}[2] na ???? v starej časti[2a] {mesta}[2b], {oznámili}[8] ?? palestínski
?????? ??????.
Hebrejci[2c] otvorili {streľbu}[2] ????? ?? ?????????[3] svojich rodákov[4] ktorí[5] zahynuli v
nedávnom ??????. ?????? Musa Džamdžum zabitá je[6] ??? sa {nachádzala}[7] na balkóne
svojej ????, a {jej} brat je ľahšie zranený, {oznámili}[8] ?? ?????? z nemocnice Ahli.
???? ???????? ???????? ?? palestínskym {správou}[9], Izraelci ?? ?? 80
????? evakuovali? z Hebrona, ale aj ďalej držia jednu enklávu, kde žije okolo 600
hebrejských osadníkov[1] obkrúžených[10] ?? okolo 120 000 Palestíncami.
In english it would be:
One 14-(year old) palestinian girl is killed
??????? in Hebron, at Western ?????, when hebrew settlers
opened {fire} at ???? in old part of {city}, {announced} ?? palestinian
?????? ??????.
Hebrews opened {fire} ????? ?? ????????? their "fellow citizens" who perished in
recent ??????. ?????? Musa Džamdžum is killed ??? was present on balcony
of her ????, and {her} brother is lightly injured, announced ?? ?????? from Ahli hospital.
????? ???????? ???????? ?? palestinian {administration}, Israelis ?? ?? 80
evacuated? from Hebron, but [they] also longer hold one enclave, where live about 600
hebrew settlers surrounded by 120 000 Palestinians.
[1] doseljenici, naseljenika - all sounds familiar, similar to "osadník"
(settler) where o- is a prefix and also "do-", "na-" are common verb prefixes
in Slovak, so I immediatly see the root of the word (seljeni-), looking
similar to "seľo" which in some slovak dialects means "village,
settlement"
[2] "vatra" in Slovak is campfire.
[2a] "časť", as well as "diel" means "part". However, when speaking
about a city, nobody will use the word "diel" in this context
[2b] in Slovak, "hrad" is castle. Hoewver, most people would know
Russian "город" means city (if not from anything else, then because
of many Russian cities ending with -город, also many Slovak cities
end with -hrad)
[2c] "Žid" (Jew) is a correct term. "Hebrejec" is overly politically
correct, and used very rarely.
Radovan Garabik
: "Radovan Garabik" <sp...@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk> wrote in message
: news:08l3ia...@127.0.0.1...
: juče = yesterday.
: | [1] doseljenici, naseljenika - all sounds familiar, similar to "osadník"
: | (settler) where o- is a prefix and also "do-", "na-" are common verb prefixes
: | in Slovak, so I immediatly see the root of the word (seljeni-), looking
: | similar to "seľo" which in some slovak dialects means "village,
: | settlement"
: Yes.
: | [2] "vatra" in Slovak is campfire.
: In SC too, but also "gunfire". "Otvoriti vatru" = "start gunfire".
: | [3] "sahranili" looks suspiciously like slovak "zachránili" ([they] saved)
: | but context seems to rule this out.
: The meaning is "have burried" (only in sense "a dead man"). AFAIK most
: east and west Slavic have so/sa/za+hranit meaning "save"
: but in SC that deviated to this meaning; I don't know how. Well,
: they did kinda _save_ him, aren't they?
I could have guessed, from Russian "похоронить"
: | [4] archaism, rodák is native coming from the same country as you
: "Rođak" is "relative"; "zemljak" is "countrymen". "Rod" in SC
: tends to have more narrow meaning than "tribe" or "nation" in
: Russian or Slovak (although it can be used in this sense too) --
: it's closer to (wide) "family".
"rod" in Slovak seems to be the same as in SC.
it is "rodák" that deviated a bit
: | [5] different conjugation, conjuction "ktorí" (which) is needed in
: | Slovak
: Past participle (poginuli) can still have adjective meaning in SC
: as in English, although it's far less used. In common speech
: construction "koji su poginuli" (ktorí zahynuli) will be bit more frequent.
in sk, "zahynuli" is past tense, "zahynutí" is past participle.
I parsed "poginuli" as past tense, when I replace it with
"zahynutí" the sentence looks much more familiar.
: | [6] "je" in slovak is 3rd person singular, present tense from "to be"
: | (is). By now, I start to suspect that "je" in serbocroatian means
: | something different.
: In SC too, but it's grammatical difference. Since PP is an adjective,
: past tense must be formed with present of auxiliary verb "to be" = "je",
: i.e. "Ja *sam* radio" = "I worked"
Ok, it is the same as in Slovak. "Ja som robil". Only that in
Slovak the auxiliary verb has to be omitted in 3rd person.
: | There are also many spurious "sa" words, which in Slovak comes from
: | reflexive verbs but I have no idea what is their function here
: | (they just seem to stick out in all inappropriate places)
: "Se" forms reflexive verbs too, but they're very frequent in SC.
: "su se evakuisali" means "have evacuated themselves". ("Su" is
: "to be" in 3rd person singular, see above).
"sa evakuovali" in Slovak. (auxiliary verb is omitted, see above :-))
: Slightly OT, reflexive
: verbs are used for impersonal speech, i.e. where Englishmen would
: use passive. For example, "to evacuate oneself" makes sense (although
: incorrect in English), but in SC it's possible to say even, e.g. "umiralo se na
: hiljade" -- literally "It died oneself in thousands", meaning, "[people]
: died in thousands". Although "umirati" (die) is not transitive (and thus not
: reflexive), the construction above is possible in 3rd person singular
: neutrum to indicate passive voice meaning.
that closely follows Slovak usage - "Umieralo sa na tisíce".
There are however two such particles, "sa" and "si", the former
comes from "seba" (acusative), the latter from "sebe" (dative), and
the actual usage is governed by the appropriate case you'd use with the
verb.
Radovan Garabik
Now comes Bulgarian (I crossposted this to soc.culture.bulgaria, to
generate some fl^H^Hresponses. Short summary: trying to find out, what
would an average speaker of a slavic language understand from another
slavic language.)
this is the original:
Черните кутии от самолета Ил-86, който са
разби секунди след излитането си от
московското летище Шереметиево 1, са открити
невредими.
Специалната комисия, натоварена с
разследването на инцидента, днес започва да
прослушва записите. Спасителните екипи
откриха и телата на всичките четиринадесет
души, които загинаха при катастрофата.
What I understand is this:
Black {boxes} from airplane Il-86, which
broke seconds after takeoff from
moscow airport Sheremetievo 1, are found
unharmed.
Special comittee, {created} {for?}
investigation {of} the incident, today start{ed?}
to listen to the records. Rescue ?????
found? bodies {of} all fourty
{people}, who perished in the catastrophe.
Now, this was not fair, so for the time being I'll
pretend I do not speak Russian and try again.
So an average Slovak would understand it as this:
Čierne {skrinky} {lietadla}[1] Il-86, {ktoré} sa
rozbi{lo}[2] sekundy {po} vzlete z
moskovského letiska Šeremetevo 1, sú odkryté[3]
ne-????.
Špeciálna komisia, {utvorená} ??
sledovanie[4] incidenta, dnes započ{ne}[2]
?????? zápisy. Záchranárské[5] ?????
odkry{li}[2] telá všetkých štyridsiatich
duší[6], {ktoré} zahynu{li}[2] pri katastrofe.
[1] it would be parsed as "samo"+"let" ("self"+"fly"),
so correct meaning is almost obvious
[2] Bulgarian has rather different system of tenses (as compared to
other slavic languages), and these suffixes look to me
completely alien - so I am just guessing tenses here.
[3] Misleading. "odkryť" in sk means "to uncover".
However, Russian "открыть" means "to discover"
[3] Again misleading. "sledovanie" in slovak is "following"
However, in Russian "расследование" means "investigation"
[4] "spasiť" in Slovak is rather archaic for "to save".
Probably this could be guessed.
[5] "duša" in sk is "soul". Using it to mean "person" (as I guess
is the situation in bg) is very archaic (and biblical)
Some notes:
Bulgarian does not have usual cases and inflexions. These usually
provide very helpful clues abot the rôle a word plays in a
sentence, but bulgarian prepositions (having radically different
functions from Slovak ones) are just confusing.
What I see is really just a flow of words, often familiar, but grammar
is additionally composed out of context.
I know that -та suffix is a definitive article, but again it is just
confusing for an unaware observer (e.g. at the first sight, телата
would be confused with "teľatá" (calves) instead of "telá" (bodies).
George Stanchev
FYI
[5] Actually "duš`a"("душ`а") is "soul" in bg as well. The plural is
(a)"dush`i" ("душ`и"). However we have another word "d`ushi" ("д`уши")
(notice it also has different stress "`") which is *always* plural
and means "people". It is homonym of (a). But you probably know that...
Martin Green
done, guys.
Martin Green
http://www.onforeignsoil.com
The book that starts in English
and turns to Yiddish.