[Z] YAWP
Richard Burstein
[Zangband 2.5.2 Character Dump]
Name : Boldor Age 17 STR: 18/***
Sex : Male Height 54 Int: 18/***
18/***
Race : Yeek Weight 97 Wis: 18/***
18/***
Class : High-Mage Social Class 2 DEX: 18/***
Magic : Arcane CON: 18/***
CHR: 18/***
+ Skill 49 Level 50 Max Hit Points
726
% Deadliness 269 Experience 6788989 Cur Hit Points
674
+ To AC 97 Max Exp 6788989 Max SP (Mana)
551
Base AC 40 Exp to Adv. ***** Cur SP (Mana)
551
Gold 10588429
(Miscellaneous Abilities)
Fighting : Very Good Perception : Superb Blows/Round :
2
Bows/Throw : Good Searching : Very Good Shots/Round :
0.83
Saving Throw: Chaos Rank Disarming : Superb Avg.Dam./Rnd:
64
Stealth : Chaos Rank Magic Device: Amber [7] Infra-Vision:
1270'
(Character Background)
You are one of several children of a Brown Yeek. You have
pale eyes, long black hair, and black leprous skin.
[Miscellaneous information]
Maximize Mode: ON
Preserve Mode: ON
Autoscum: ON
Small Levels: ON
Arena Levels: ENABLED
Hard Quests: OFF
Num. Random Quests: 20
Nightmare Mode: OFF
Recall Depth: Level 104 (5200')
abcdefghijkl@
Acid : ......+.*+..*
Elec : ......+..+...
Fire : .+....+..+...
Cold : +.....+..+...
Poison: ......+..+...
Fear : ......+......
Light : +........+...
Dark : ......+..+...
Shard : .............
Blind : .............
Conf : .....+...+...
Sound : ........+....
Nether: ......+......
Nexus : .........+...
Chaos : .....+..+....
Disnch: ........+....
abcdefghijkl@
Speed : ++++.+.....+.
Reflect : ....+........
AuraFire: .............
AuraElec: .............
NoTelprt: .........+...
No Magic: .............
Cursed : .........+...
DrainExp: .............
Teleport: .............
abcdefghijkl@
Free Actn: ++......+.+..
SeeInvis.: +....++..+...
Hold Life: .....++......
Telepathy: .........+...
SlwDigstn: +............
Regen. : +............
Levitate : .............
PermLite : +........+...
Aggravate: .............
EvilCurse: .............
You have defeated 3748 enemies.
[Virtues]
You are the polar opposite of Enlightenment.
You are the living embodiment of Mysticism.
You are the living embodiment of Knowledge.
You are an enemy of Sacrifice.
You are the polar opposite of Valour.
You are the living embodiment of Harmony.
You have strayed from the path of Justice.
You have sinned against Honour.
[Character Equipment]
a) The Long Sword 'Ringil' (4d5) (+22,+25) (+10 to speed)
b) The Light Crossbow of Brand (x5) (+10,+14) (+10 to speed)
c) The Ring of Tulkas (+4)
d) a Bloodstone Ring of Speed (+12)
e) a Brass Amulet of Reflection
f) The Jewel of Judgement (+3 to speed)
g) The Mithril Chain Mail of Lohengrin (-1) [28,+20] (+4 to stealth)
h) an Elven Cloak [4,+11] (+4 to stealth)
i) The Small Metal Shield of Thorin [5,+25] (+4)
j) The Massive Iron Crown of Chaos [0,+0] (+125) {cursed}
k) The Set of Leather Gloves 'Cambeleg' (+8,+8) [1,+15] (+2)
l) a Pair of Soft Leather Boots of Speed [2,+10] (+9) {!*}
[Character Inventory]
a) 3 Arcane Spellbooks [Cantrips for Beginners]
b) 3 Arcane Spellbooks [Minor Arcana]
c) 2 Arcane Spellbooks [Major Arcana]
d) 3 Arcane Spellbooks [Manual of Mastery]
e) 7 Ivory White Potions of Healing
f) 10 Stinking Potions of *Healing*
g) 8 Sky Blue Potions of Restore Mana
h) 3 Scrolls titled "buankh engseh" of *Identify*
i) 2 Scrolls titled "riaks shu snik" of *Destruction* {!r}
j) 3 Scrolls titled "biewed heti" of Mass Genocide
k) a Wand of Teleport Other (20 charges)
l) 9 Tin-Plated Wands of Lightning Balls (10 charges)
m) a Gold Wand of Dragon's Flame (4 charges)
n) 3 Hexagonal Wands of Dragon's Frost (9 charges) {25% off}
o) a Balsa Staff of the Magi (14 charges)
p) a Cottonwood Staff of Power (30 charges)
q) a Cottonwood Staff of Power (19 charges)
r) 2 Cottonwood Staffs of Power (2x 0 charges)
s) a Hickory Staff of Holiness (30 charges)
t) a Cypress Staff of Genocide (13 charges)
u) an Ironwood Staff of *Destruction* (9 charges) {!u}
v) The Golden Crown of Amber [0,+15] (+3)
w) The Mighty Hammer 'Grond' (9d9) (+5,+25) [+10]
[home inventory snipped]
[had lots of mutations when fighting Serpent, ran into New
Life trap immediately after]
First note: The Serpent was much easier to kill than I
expected. +64 speed, and amber[7] magic device, meant
that I was using Staff of Power three or four times per his
turn. Perfect saving throw from the Magic Resistance
mutation meant that Hand of Doom did nothing; he
only breathed twice, and didn't summon at all, before
I killed him. It turns out that only 3 max-charged Staves
of Power are needed, not 4--I'll remember that for next time.
If he had summoned,it wouldn't have mattered (probably)--
scroll of Mass Genocide if necessary, but the Staff of
Power kills summoned monsters fast.
Yeek arcane high mages are lots of fun in endgame. After lvl50,
I stopped killing monsters--just raided vaults, or set up monster
battles for when I needed stuff. Unicorn vs. Tiamat got me
about 4 of the artifacts I used vs. the Serpent. Early game was quite
difficult, but I survived by stair-scumming like crazy and powerdiving
to level 55 (getting exp off quest monsters, mostly) at which point
wands of (foo) ball become available and character can actually start
killing things. Primary weapon in early game was shoot & scoot with
Zap--works remarkably well. The overall playstyle was a nice
change from (e.g.) V mages. Any one monster could be killed very
easily with wands (except for the Unicorn), but monsters in large
groups were impossible, so Boldor snuck around and picked off
uniques or random quest monsters when possible. Throughout the
game, the emphasis was on stealth rather then HP--I didn't max out
CON until a lvl 76 quest vs. the Destroyer. Against anything dangerous,
I just ran away. I avoided Dark Elf Warlocks for half the game,
because 1 mana bolt could have killed me, and 2 would have for sure.
Laser Eye became my default attack when I got it off a mutation
trap.
Thoughts on gameplay: Jagged Runes are a problem. It's not tough
to find a potion or two of New Life, and even moderate rune-
scumming gets a preponderence of useful mutations. This becomes
infinitely worse in endgame--it was easy to hop down to lvl 100 and
find a New Life trap if I got a mutation I didn't like, so when I faced
the Serpent I had essentially every useful mutation there was, and not
more than 2 or 3 really bad ones. Telepathy, +4 CON, +4 Int/Wis,
innate FA, +3 speed, Magic Resistance, Laser Eye, Eat Magic,
Berserk...
Also, the step-up for wands may be a teeny bit overpowered.
Reductions in energy use per turn are a nice touch, but 2-3 per turn
allows 500-750 damage to all visible monsters with Staff of Power,
and even acid balls can take down big uniques in 10-15 turns.
Reduced monster HP have made wands more powerful,
anyway.
Finally, I think monster battles are a bad idea and should be
gotten rid of. IMHO, it's silly to see Tiamat facing off against
the Unicorn, down to 1HP but immortal, summoning dragons right and
left to get taken down by the ferocious quadraped. Then I cast
Destruction and pick up tons of uniques...It's a plausibility issue.
If Fundin Bluecloak is really down there beating on monsters,
he'll kill half the uniques before you get to them, and likely take
on the Serpent, too--and if Raphael can't see an evil dragon without
mana-bolting it, there's no way both Raphael and
Istangast would survive long enough for you to get to them. I just
don't like the concept of the dungeon being engaged in a holy war of
good vs. evil without the player present--Angband
should be about the player, not about monster-monster interactions.
It also makes it way to easy to pick up superb artifacts in endgame.
Just my $0.02
--Richard Burstein
Timo Pietilä
Richard Burstein wrote:
>
> Here's a winning char in the latest version of Z, 2.5.2b
> [Zangband 2.5.2 Character Dump]
>
> Name : Boldor Age 17 STR: 18/***
> Sex : Male Height 54 Int: 18/*** 18/***
> Race : Yeek Weight 97 Wis: 18/*** 18/***
> Class : High-Mage Social Class 2 DEX: 18/***
> Magic : Arcane CON: 18/***
> CHR: 18/***
>
> + Skill 49 Level 50 Max Hit Points 726
> % Deadliness 269 Experience 6788989 Cur Hit Points 674
> + To AC 97 Max Exp 6788989 Max SP (Mana) 551
> Base AC 40 Exp to Adv. ***** Cur SP (Mana) 551
> Gold 10588429
>
> (Miscellaneous Abilities)
> Fighting : Very Good Perception : Superb Blows/Round : 2
> Bows/Throw : Good Searching : Very Good Shots/Round : 0.83
> Saving Throw: Chaos Rank Disarming : Superb Avg.Dam./Rnd: 64
> Stealth : Chaos Rank Magic Device: Amber [7] Infra-Vision: 1270'
> [Miscellaneous information]
>
> Maximize Mode: ON
> Preserve Mode: ON
> Autoscum: ON
> Small Levels: ON
> Arena Levels: ENABLED
> Hard Quests: OFF
> Num. Random Quests: 20
> Nightmare Mode: OFF
> Recall Depth: Level 104 (5200')
>
> abcdefghijkl@
> Shard : .............
No Shard? Lucky Serpent didn't summon cyberdemons. (or did you have it
from Amber?)
> abcdefghijkl@
> Speed : ++++.+.....+.
10 + 10 + 4 + 12 + 3 + 9 = 48 + haste 58, nice.
> You have defeated 3748 enemies.
What? only 3748 enemies? I had killed more trolls than that.
> [Character Equipment]
>
> a) The Long Sword 'Ringil' (4d5) (+22,+25) (+10 to speed)
> b) The Light Crossbow of Brand (x5) (+10,+14) (+10 to speed)
> c) The Ring of Tulkas (+4)
> d) a Bloodstone Ring of Speed (+12)
> e) a Brass Amulet of Reflection
> f) The Jewel of Judgement (+3 to speed)
> g) The Mithril Chain Mail of Lohengrin (-1) [28,+20] (+4 to stealth)
> h) an Elven Cloak [4,+11] (+4 to stealth)
> i) The Small Metal Shield of Thorin [5,+25] (+4)
> j) The Massive Iron Crown of Chaos [0,+0] (+125) {cursed}
> k) The Set of Leather Gloves 'Cambeleg' (+8,+8) [1,+15] (+2)
> l) a Pair of Soft Leather Boots of Speed [2,+10] (+9) {!*}
> First note: The Serpent was much easier to kill than I
> expected. +64 speed, and amber[7] magic device, meant
64? I got 58 when I calculated those. +6 from mutations and Amber?
> that I was using Staff of Power three or four times per his
> turn.
Should not.
> Perfect saving throw from the Magic Resistance
> mutation meant that Hand of Doom did nothing; he
> only breathed twice, and didn't summon at all, before
> I killed him.
You were lucky. Serpent has 1_IN_3 so it should use spells every third
turn on average.
> It turns out that only 3 max-charged Staves
> of Power are needed, not 4--I'll remember that for next time.
> If he had summoned,it wouldn't have mattered (probably)--
> scroll of Mass Genocide if necessary, but the Staff of
> Power kills summoned monsters fast.
Don't count on that. Multiple cyberdemons are nasty. (but they can be
genocided)
> Yeek arcane high mages are lots of fun in endgame. After lvl50,
> I stopped killing monsters--just raided vaults,
OK. That explains low kill count.
> or set up monster
> battles for when I needed stuff. Unicorn vs. Tiamat got me
> about 4 of the artifacts I used vs. the Serpent. Early game was quite
> difficult, but I survived by stair-scumming like crazy and powerdiving
> to level 55 (getting exp off quest monsters, mostly) at which point
> wands of (foo) ball become available and character can actually start
> killing things. Primary weapon in early game was shoot & scoot with
> Zap--works remarkably well. The overall playstyle was a nice
> change from (e.g.) V mages.
Z mages are better than V. They at least feel like mages and not weak
warriors in steroids.
> Thoughts on gameplay: Jagged Runes are a problem. It's not tough
> to find a potion or two of New Life, and even moderate rune-
> scumming gets a preponderence of useful mutations. This becomes
> infinitely worse in endgame--it was easy to hop down to lvl 100 and
> find a New Life trap if I got a mutation I didn't like, so when I faced
> the Serpent I had essentially every useful mutation there was, and not
> more than 2 or 3 really bad ones. Telepathy, +4 CON, +4 Int/Wis,
> innate FA, +3 speed, Magic Resistance, Laser Eye, Eat Magic,
> Berserk...
I guessed that. It has been noted to dev-team.
> Also, the step-up for wands may be a teeny bit overpowered.
> Reductions in energy use per turn are a nice touch, but 2-3 per turn
> allows 500-750 damage to all visible monsters with Staff of Power,
> and even acid balls can take down big uniques in 10-15 turns.
Uh. That is *bad*. Maybe reduced energy should apply only for wands and
rods, not staves. Also good DSM (balance, chaos and multihued) make way
too much damage with their activation. This has been corrected in future
version.
I think we need to get next beta-version for testing soon. 2.5.2b is too
unbalanced for proper feeling of final version. Warrior-like chars are
changed to mages by NO-combat model (*EVERY* class has to rely on magic)
and mages are too powerful. Both need change.
Timo Pietilä
--
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
GCM d s+:+ a C++$ UL+++ P> L+ E W+ N++ o+ K- W---(+++) O- M+ V- PS
PE Y+ PGP- t+ 5++ X? R+ tv++ b+++ DI+++ D+++ G e+++ h*(+) r- y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Richard Burstein
Timo Pietilä wrote:
> > Shard : .............
>
> No Shard? Lucky Serpent didn't summon cyberdemons. (or did you have it
> from Amber?)
>
yeah. All resists covered except Nexus.
>
>
> 64? I got 58 when I calculated those. +6 from mutations and Amber?
>
yup.
>
> > that I was using Staff of Power three or four times per his
> > turn.
>
> Should not.
>
just did a test against Sauron, and I seemed to be getting
_6_ staff activations per his move. I might have counted
wrong, and the serpent's a bit faster--but I don't have the
code. What's the min. item activation energy cost?
>
> > Perfect saving throw from the Magic Resistance
> > mutation meant that Hand of Doom did nothing; he
> > only breathed twice, and didn't summon at all, before
> > I killed him.
>
> You were lucky. Serpent has 1_IN_3 so it should use spells every third
> turn on average.
>
Sure, but hand of doom and brain smash do nothing against
perfect save--I think he used two of the first, and one of the second.
>
>
> Don't count on that. Multiple cyberdemons are nasty. (but they can be
> genocided)
>
I probably wouldn't have tried to use SoP against cyberdemons.
Greater Undead, maybe...nether breaths are a problem, but
they go down _amazingly_ fast.
>
> > Yeek arcane high mages are lots of fun in endgame. After lvl50,
> > I stopped killing monsters--just raided vaults,
>
> OK. That explains low kill count.
>
I might try a uniques-only YAHM. Should be doable--
they don't really need all that much XP.
>
> > or set up monster
> > battles for when I needed stuff. Unicorn vs. Tiamat got me
> > about 4 of the artifacts I used vs. the Serpent. Early game was quite
> > difficult, but I survived by stair-scumming like crazy and powerdiving
> > to level 55 (getting exp off quest monsters, mostly) at which point
> > wands of (foo) ball become available and character can actually start
> > killing things. Primary weapon in early game was shoot & scoot with
> > Zap--works remarkably well. The overall playstyle was a nice
> > change from (e.g.) V mages.
>
> Z mages are better than V. They at least feel like mages and not weak
> warriors in steroids.
>
> > Thoughts on gameplay: Jagged Runes are a problem. It's not tough
> > to find a potion or two of New Life, and even moderate rune-
> > scumming gets a preponderence of useful mutations. This becomes
> > infinitely worse in endgame--it was easy to hop down to lvl 100 and
> > find a New Life trap if I got a mutation I didn't like, so when I faced
> > the Serpent I had essentially every useful mutation there was, and not
> > more than 2 or 3 really bad ones. Telepathy, +4 CON, +4 Int/Wis,
> > innate FA, +3 speed, Magic Resistance, Laser Eye, Eat Magic,
> > Berserk...
>
> I guessed that. It has been noted to dev-team.
>
good.
>
> > Also, the step-up for wands may be a teeny bit overpowered.
> > Reductions in energy use per turn are a nice touch, but 2-3 per turn
> > allows 500-750 damage to all visible monsters with Staff of Power,
> > and even acid balls can take down big uniques in 10-15 turns.
>
> Uh. That is *bad*. Maybe reduced energy should apply only for wands and
> rods, not staves. Also good DSM (balance, chaos and multihued) make way
> too much damage with their activation. This has been corrected in future
> version.
>
I actually didn't use DSM. 1000+ damage sounds nice, but it takes
about 1 star off Cthulhu--and how many DSMs do you want
to carry around? I think Power Staffs are better.
>
> I think we need to get next beta-version for testing soon. 2.5.2b is too
> unbalanced for proper feeling of final version. Warrior-like chars are
> changed to mages by NO-combat model (*EVERY* class has to rely on magic)
> and mages are too powerful. Both need change.
>
> Timo Pietilä
maybe. Going to try a basher-type next...see how it works.
Not a ranger, since the new extra shots calculation
cripples them quite badly...that seemed a bit excessive,
as they weren't exactly a super-class before.
--Richard Burstein
Steven Fuerst
>
<snip stats>
> [home inventory snipped]
>
> [had lots of mutations when fighting Serpent, ran into New
> Life trap immediately after]
That trap is designed to make fighting the serpent a little harder...
>
> First note: The Serpent was much easier to kill than I
> expected. +64 speed, and amber[7] magic device, meant
> that I was using Staff of Power three or four times per his
> turn. Perfect saving throw from the Magic Resistance
> mutation meant that Hand of Doom did nothing; he
> only breathed twice, and didn't summon at all, before
> I killed him. It turns out that only 3 max-charged Staves
> of Power are needed, not 4--I'll remember that for next time.
> If he had summoned,it wouldn't have mattered (probably)--
> scroll of Mass Genocide if necessary, but the Staff of
> Power kills summoned monsters fast.
It looks like the increase in activation speed is a little too much.
>
> Yeek arcane high mages are lots of fun in endgame. After lvl50,
> I stopped killing monsters--just raided vaults, or set up monster
> battles for when I needed stuff. Unicorn vs. Tiamat got me
> about 4 of the artifacts I used vs. the Serpent. Early game was quite
> difficult, but I survived by stair-scumming like crazy and powerdiving
> to level 55 (getting exp off quest monsters, mostly) at which point
> wands of (foo) ball become available and character can actually start
> killing things. Primary weapon in early game was shoot & scoot with
> Zap--works remarkably well. The overall playstyle was a nice
> change from (e.g.) V mages.
Good to see.
> Any one monster could be killed very
> easily with wands (except for the Unicorn), but monsters in large
> groups were impossible, so Boldor snuck around and picked off
> uniques or random quest monsters when possible.
Did you try using rods? A few rods of fire balls tend to stop most
packs of medium-strength monsters.
> Throughout the
> game, the emphasis was on stealth rather then HP--I didn't max out
> CON until a lvl 76 quest vs. the Destroyer. Against anything dangerous,
> I just ran away. I avoided Dark Elf Warlocks for half the game,
> because 1 mana bolt could have killed me, and 2 would have for sure.
> Laser Eye became my default attack when I got it off a mutation
> trap.
>
> Thoughts on gameplay: Jagged Runes are a problem. It's not tough
> to find a potion or two of New Life, and even moderate rune-
> scumming gets a preponderence of useful mutations.
Yep the mutation trap probably needs to change. In fact mutations
themselves probably need to change.
> This becomes
> infinitely worse in endgame--it was easy to hop down to lvl 100 and
> find a New Life trap if I got a mutation I didn't like, so when I faced
> the Serpent I had essentially every useful mutation there was, and not
> more than 2 or 3 really bad ones. Telepathy, +4 CON, +4 Int/Wis,
> innate FA, +3 speed, Magic Resistance, Laser Eye, Eat Magic,
> Berserk...
The best way to fix this IMHO is to make every good mutation have a
slightly bad aspect. That way every mutation is both good and bad in
different ways.
>
> Also, the step-up for wands may be a teeny bit overpowered.
> Reductions in energy use per turn are a nice touch, but 2-3 per turn
> allows 500-750 damage to all visible monsters with Staff of Power,
> and even acid balls can take down big uniques in 10-15 turns.
I'll reduce the speedup by a factor of two.
> Reduced monster HP have made wands more powerful,
> anyway.
Yep. Some of the magic items were also increased in damage as well.
>
> Finally, I think monster battles are a bad idea and should be
> gotten rid of. IMHO, it's silly to see Tiamat facing off against
> the Unicorn, down to 1HP but immortal, summoning dragons right and
> left to get taken down by the ferocious quadraped.
I know a simple way to stop this... (by making them appear in different
dungeons in the wilderness) but it is a while off from being coded.
> Then I cast
> Destruction and pick up tons of uniques...It's a plausibility issue.
> If Fundin Bluecloak is really down there beating on monsters,
> he'll kill half the uniques before you get to them, and likely take
> on the Serpent, too--and if Raphael can't see an evil dragon without
> mana-bolting it, there's no way both Raphael and
> Istangast would survive long enough for you to get to them. I just
> don't like the concept of the dungeon being engaged in a holy war of
> good vs. evil without the player present--Angband
> should be about the player, not about monster-monster interactions.
> It also makes it way to easy to pick up superb artifacts in endgame.
> Just my $0.02
>
> --Richard Burstein
Steven