Galatians 6:14
Lance S. Ferm
Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
Note: Cults always downgrade the death of Jesus Christ for the sins of the
world.
Crazy Rat
certain they do. However, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is
not a cult. Even if it was, why do you go against one of Gods greatest
commandments and judge any group of people that are apart of a Church? I am
currious who made you chief critic of Shakesperes "All the world's a stage,
all the men and woman merely players". Maybe you should reiveiw what a cult
really is? Going against Gods commandments is very cultish.
"Lance S. Ferm" <wakeu...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:VbfW6.5926$Kq4.5...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Bryce
Crazy Rat wrote:
> Cults always downgrade the death of Jesus Christ? Well, in some way I am
> certain they do. However, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is
> not a cult. Even if it was, why do you go against one of Gods greatest
> commandments and judge any group of people that are apart of a Church? I am
> currious who made you chief critic of Shakesperes "All the world's a stage,
> all the men and woman merely players". Maybe you should reiveiw what a cult
> really is? Going against Gods commandments is very cultish.
You're denying that the Church is a cult, but using the same tactics that
Christians use. To you, a "cult" is anything you disagree with. "Going
against God's commandments is very cultish?" Please. You're as bad as the Josh
McDowell clones who say that a cult is anything that doesn't preach the
resurrection of Christ.
BTW, the post you were responding to wasn't posted to
alt.religion.mormon.fellowship. I'm pretty sure that group is only marginally
interested in most of the stuff crossed over from this newsgroup.
Posted from NetWORLD Connections, Inc.
Crazy Rat
anything is a cult that you disagree with". I don't see any Church as a
cult. Infact that is for God to judge. Not you or I. With that being said,
what I believe is not a cult. Is it a cult to you? Perhaps it is. However, I
am not the one going against Gods commandments.
By the way, I like how you called them a cult with no further explanation
other then. "Your denying the Church is a cult". As for your judging, I will
do as God commanded me and not judge you back.
Oh yeah, and yes POST Galatians 6:14 was posted in both rooms by an anti
Mormon. alt.religion.mormon,alt.religion.mormon.fellowship
Lance S. Ferm
"Crazy Rat" <txspo...@home.comnospam> wrote in message
news:5V6X6.305271$oc7.24...@news2.rdc2.tx.home.com...
newguy
Lance S. Ferm wrote in message ...
CharlesSWaters
> So where is a cross on a mormon building? ...
So putting a cross on a building is a requirement for salvation?
Cheerio,
Charles
Keith Wood
I keep saying that it's a good thing for the Fermin and others like him
that Christ wasn't killed by firing squad, or they would have golden
Mausers on all of their buildings . . .
Jeni Sorenson
hanging from their neck.
Lance S. Ferm
"CharlesSWaters" <cswater...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:9gk2g...@enews3.newsguy.com...
Lance S. Ferm
Keith Wood is an enemy of the cross of Christ. Philippians 3:18.
"Keith Wood" <k...@bctv.com> wrote in message
news:3B2DF3AE...@bctv.com...
Lance S. Ferm
"Jeni Sorenson" <jeni...@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:3B2E43E2...@qwest.net...
CharlesSWaters
Cheerio,
Charles
Lance S. Ferm <wakeu...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:aoUY6.2686$Un6.3...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> Wrong. It is evidence of a Christian church.
>
>
Jeni Sorenson
Abel Casten
> Or of pagan worshipers inside.
>
sort of symbol.
CharlesSWaters
Abel Casten <notgettingmail@don't.try> wrote in message
news:9h2j4d$1m6$2...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
A cross (many types) and "the Christian cross" (many types) are different.
Cheerio,
Charles
Abel Casten
"CharlesSWaters"
> A cross (many types) and "the Christian cross" (many types) are different.
>
top of a building and the remark that it could indicate pagans inside. I
don't know of any pagan path that sets aside particular buildings for their
worship services, much less marks them with any sort of divine icon.
Also, while I grant that there are many types of crosses I have yet to
find any that are used by any pagan groups. Some of us use a
double-bisected circle, which includes an equal-armed cross, as a symbol of
various aspects of the Wheel, but I don't know of any that use an actual
cross.
I could be wrong in this and if you know of any pagan groups of even any
other non-Christian religions that use a cross as a symbol, I'd really like
to learn of them.
Thank you.
CharlesSWaters
Abel Casten <notgettingmail@don't.try> wrote in message
You may be right that no current pagan groups use the cross, but the cross
predates Christianity by thousands of years and is found in almost all
ancient cultures.
Tons of entries for different crosses can be found in _Dictionary of
Symbols_ by Carl G. Liungman.
One short quote from page 138 "The cross with arms of equal length is an
extremely old ideogram used by most cultures. It is also one of the basic
gestalts in Western ideography (as apposite to the basic elements, which are
derived entities). The cross is found in every part of the world, in
prehistoric caves and engraved on rocks."
Cheerio,
Charles
Keith Wood
Abel Casten wrote:
>
> "CharlesSWaters"
> > A cross (many types) and "the Christian cross" (many types) are different.
> >
> Valid points, but I was addressing the topic of a cross being placed on
> top of a building and the remark that it could indicate pagans inside. I
> don't know of any pagan path that sets aside particular buildings for their
> worship services, much less marks them with any sort of divine icon.
Oh, sure -- Southern Baptists! Though most other pagan sects claim that
SBs aren't "true" pagans . . .
;)
John Clark
Keith Wood wrote:
If you look into how 'pagan' is used, it has been used in the english speaking
world since the age of Henry VIII and Elizabeth I by the 'puritans' aka
Separatists, etc. who claimed that the use of 'symbols' is a residual of
pagan influences. They take their cue in this from the 10 Commandment
admonishments to not make any 'representation of anything in
heaven and earth'.
I think even recent writers such as Camilla Paglia has used the term
'pagan eye' to indicate the way the world is viewed in pictures and writerings
to indicate a 'for the pleasure of the human sense apparatus', and
if used for religious purposes to invoke a sense of 'awe and veneration'.
(I'd have to re-read her to verify the last thought on religious uses...)
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Woody Brison
> But God forbid that I should glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus
> Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
>
> Note: Cults always downgrade the death of Jesus Christ for the sins of the
> world.
It's good to know then that the Church of Jesus Christ is not
an evil cult, since we do not downgrade His suffering and death.
We believe that He did it for the sins of the world.
3 Nephi 11:11 And behold, I am the light and the life of the
world; and I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father
hath given me, and have glorified the Father in taking upon me
the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the will of
the Father in all things from the beginning.
Mosiah 15:12 12 For these are they whose sins he has borne;
these are they for whom he has died, to redeem them from their
transgressions. And now, are they not his seed?
You really should read the Book of Mormon, for it would show
you that the religion you persecute is the religion of the God
which you profess.
Wood
Woody Brison
> So where is a cross on a mormon building? 1 Corinthians 2:2.
1 Cor. 2:2 doesn't say anything about a cross on a building.
You might be thinking of scriptures like
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to
them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved
it is the power of God.
We members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
do not put crosses on our buildings for a very simple reason.
Jesus, the Son of God, was crucified on a cross. Three days
later, he came out of his tomb, victorious over death. The
cross was the means by which the Romans tortured him to death,
but he gained the victory over that. The earliest Christians
did not revere the cross; they revered the risen Lord, who
appeared to them. That is what we do also.
Jesus said, "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth
after me, is not worthy of me." "Whosoever will come after
me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow
me." It is clear that he is not asking his disciples to
carry a cross around. It would greatly interfere with their
fulfilling his injunction to carry the Gospel to all the world.
Instead, it is a figure of speech, meaning that they must be
resigned to die for him at any time -- suffer the same kinds
of things he did, in order to get the same kind of reward.
His disciples of that time, to whom he spoke these words,
were indeed crucified, some of them; some were beheaded;
some were fed to lions, boiled in oil, etc. It is clear that
the Savior was using a figure of speech.
Wood
Woody Brison
> I keep saying that it's a good thing for the Fermin and others like him
> that Christ wasn't killed by firing squad, or they would have golden
> Mausers on all of their buildings . . .
Jeni Sorenson responded,
> Or got hit by a car. If cars existed back then. they'd have smashed little cars
> hanging from their neck.
I believe that the cross as a method of execution was ordained
to be the way the Savior died from the foundation of the world
(i.e. the Grand Councils in Heaven). It has much symbolism.
Dying by hanging on a tree was ordained to be the way of death
for the worst of criminals, for instance it was so known to the
Egyptians, Gen. 40:19, and it was so revealed to the Israelites
in the Law:
Deut. 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of
death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on
a tree: 23 His body shall not remain all night upon the
tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for
he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be
not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an
inheritance.
See Joshua 8:29 for an instance which tends to show that the
inhabitants of the land similarly understood it. And it was
similarly known to the Babylonians (Esther 2:23). The Nephites
of course had the law and similarly acted (3 Nephi 4:28, Alma
1:15 ?) Judas Iscariot, realizing what he had done, arranged
for himself the same punishment (Matt. 27:5; see JST).
I don't know how exactly these executions were done. The
Romans didn't just hang the man, they nailed him up to suffer
untold agonies as the great nerves in his wrists and ankles
were mangled and abused, inescapably, and he died by slow
asphyxiation as his lungs filled with fluid and he lost and
regained the horror of conciousness over several days. It
was not always certain that the criminal was dead; hence they
would break the legs, the shock of that being sure to finish
him off. But, it seems likely that dimension of slow torture
was just something the Romans added.
Throughout the scriptures, trees are symbols of life, goodness,
strength, nourishment. The human family originated in a Garden,
where there were two trees, the tree of life and the tree of
knowledge of good an evil, both offering needed things to man.
Moses cast a tree into the bitter waters and they became sweet.
The olive tree was given as a symbol of healing and peace. Thus,
to be put to death on a tree was the negation of everything good
for the criminal.
Thus, Jesus being put to death on a tree (Acts 5:30, Acts 10:39),
with the added dimension of the cruelty of satanic torture, has a
meaning: that the world judged him to be the worst, who was the
best, and subjected him to the worst ordeal that could be contrived,
altho his spiritual suffering was infinitely greater. Other men
were crucified but yet did not atone for all the sins of the world;
Jesus' crucifixion was only a small part of the agony he suffered.
For he didn't linger on the cross; perhaps six hours and it was
over. As Talmage noted, the issue of blood and water from his
side was symptomatic of a burst heart or aorta, resulting in a
large quantity of blood in his chest, from which the plasma
partially separated. He literally died of a broken heart when he
took upon him the weight of horror and agony for the sins of the
world.
Wood
Woody Brison
> So putting a cross on a building is a requirement for salvation?
Lance Ferm responded:
> Wrong. It is evidence of a Christian church.
To which Isaiah answers: Shall I fall down to the stock
of a tree? (44:19)
And Jeremiah: For the customs of the people are vain: for
one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands
of the workman, with the ax. 4 They deck it with silver and
with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that
it move not. 5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak
not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be
not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also
is it in them to do good. (10:3)
susan
> Keith Wood wrote:
>
> > Abel Casten wrote:
> > >
> > > "CharlesSWaters"
> > > > A cross (many types) and "the Christian cross" (many types) are different.
> > > >
> > > Valid points, but I was addressing the topic of a cross being placed on
> > > top of a building and the remark that it could indicate pagans inside. I
> > > don't know of any pagan path that sets aside particular buildings for their
> > > worship services, much less marks them with any sort of divine icon.
> >
> > Oh, sure -- Southern Baptists! Though most other pagan sects claim that
> > SBs aren't "true" pagans . . .
>
> If you look into how 'pagan' is used, it has been used in the english speaking
> world since the age of Henry VIII and Elizabeth I by the 'puritans' aka
> Separatists, etc. who claimed that the use of 'symbols' is a residual of
> pagan influences. They take their cue in this from the 10 Commandment
> admonishments to not make any 'representation of anything in
> heaven and earth'.
>
> I think even recent writers such as Camilla Paglia has used the term
> 'pagan eye' to indicate the way the world is viewed in pictures and writerings
> to indicate a 'for the pleasure of the human sense apparatus', and
> if used for religious purposes to invoke a sense of 'awe and veneration'.
> (I'd have to re-read her to verify the last thought on religious uses...)
>
significance is it to you if you earn your own way to heaven? Why
would God incarnate endure such pain-what significance is His death
and rising from the grave to you?
susan
No Christians worship the cross. It is a symbol of His sacrifice for
ALL sins for All who believe. All I have seen on this message board is
a mockery of the cross and so obviously also of His death for you and
your sins. His death and resurrection can't mean much to you ,you'll
get to heaven on your own merit you think. Good luck with that.
newguy
newguy
The biggest sin to Jesus Christ and His Father, God, is the foolishness of
His followers. For a Supreme Being, I would not suspect that God would have
a 'Alice In Wonderland' mentality that most Christians are eager to testify
to. newguy
CharlesSWaters
susan <bcs...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:39c97801.01070...@posting.google.com...
> For the LDS: What was the purpose of Jesus' death on the cross?
We call it the Atonement.
> What
> significance is it to you if you earn your own way to heaven?
Without the Atonement of Christ, there is no salvation. It is very
significant to the LDS.
Cheerio,
Charles
CharlesSWaters
> All I have seen on this message board is
> a mockery of the cross and so obviously also of His death for you and
> your sins.
Is worshiping the cross a new work that you need to do to earn your
salvation?
> His death and resurrection can't mean much to you ,you'll
> get to heaven on your own merit you think. Good luck with that.
Not true - Latter-day Saints do not believe they can be saved without the
Atonement of Christ.
Cheerio,
Charles
Gerald Fuller
Snip
> For the LDS: What was the purpose of Jesus' death on the cross? What
> significance is it to you if you earn your own way to heaven? Why
> would God incarnate endure such pain-what significance is His death
> and rising from the grave to you?
>
The purpose of the death of Jesus on the cross? He gave His mortal life as a
sacrifice. For a propitiation of our sins. This had been planned before the
foundation of the world. It was in accordance with the plan of Our Father to
make it possible for us to return to live with Him.
You are misinformed that we think that we can earn our way to heaven.
If Jesus,who was the Jehovah of the Old Testament, had not carry out His
part of the plan, all would be lost.
Gene
John Manning
Have you seen the satanic symbols on the LDS Salt Lake City temple?
Here they are: http://helpingmormons.org/salt_lake_satanic_symbols.htm
jrm
Jeff Shirton
news:2yu17.9202$oa1.9...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> "susan" <bcs...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:39c97801.01070...@posting.google.com...
> > For the LDS: What was the purpose of Jesus' death on the cross? What
> > significance is it to you if you earn your own way to heaven? Why
> > would God incarnate endure such pain-what significance is His death
> > and rising from the grave to you?
>
> The purpose of the death of Jesus on the cross? He gave His
> mortal life as a sacrifice. For a propitiation of our sins.
> This had been planned before the foundation of the world.
> It was in accordance with the plan of Our Father to make
> it possible for us to return to live with Him.
>
> You are misinformed that we think that we can earn our way to heaven.
Susan,
This is the way I've been able to figure it out, after listening to LDS
for about 10 years...
They make a distinction between "salvation" (immortality, having a body
and living forever), and "exaltation" (how we think of "rewards" in
heaven, and their belief that they can "progess" to be gods themselves).
While LDS theology *does* teach that they "earn their way to heaven",
most LDS will deny that, and in point of fact, they have probably
honestly talked themselves out of believing that could ever be true.
They seem to believe that Jesus' atoning sacrifice *only* gave them
eternal life, and put them on the bottom rung of the "eternal ladder".
But they have to "climb up to the top" themselves, with their own works,
in their own words:
- baptism in water;
- obedience to the *laws* and *ordinances* of the Gospel;
- laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost;
- tithing regularly and fully;
- *adhering* to the Word of Wisdom (no coffee, alcohol, etc.)
- (other Temple Recommend requirements)
- "after all we can *do*".
The way they talk about it, it's like Jesus is the ship that brings them
from Russia or Poland to Ellis Island, but they have to work their way
up to the upper East Side (eg. Park Ave.) If they don't, then they'll
end up in only the "Telestial Kingdom" (Queens, Brooklyn, or *Harlem*!)
(I have a sudden urge to call this the "George Jefferson Gospel".)
("We're movin' on up...")
> If Jesus,who was the Jehovah of the Old Testament, had not
> carry out His part of the plan, all would be lost.
Exactly. If the ship hadn't brought them to Ellis Island, they'd still
be in Poland, instead of enjoying life on Skid Row, in Brooklyn.
> Gene
Jeff Shirton
hblack
[snip]
> You are misinformed that we think that we can earn our way to heaven.
No, the LDS apostles and prophets have repeatedly taught as doctrine that
one cannot "receive a reward for anything more than you merit." Men must
therefore "earn an inheritance in the kingdom of God," if they are to ever
receive any inheritance at all:
[LDS Apostle Heber C. Kimball
General Conference Address (6 April 1854)]
You will not receive a reward for anything more than you merit; and whatever
you have done, for it you merit a reward, and that belongs to you; but no men or
women in the celestial world will be rewarded for that which they have not done.
-- Re: Journal of Discourses 6:324.
[LDS Apostle Heber C. Kimball
General Conference Address (6 Oct 1862)]
When the kingdom triumphs, every man will be rewarded according to his
works, and will receive that which is designed for him, and in all things be
blessed according to his merits. By merit I mean that which a man earns, and you
will see the day when you will get nothing but what you earn by your works and
your integrity to God and your brethren.
-- Re: Journal of Discourses 10:77.
[LDS Apostle Orson Hyde,
Salt Lake City, (19 Jan 1873)]
Brethren and sisters, let us pay our tithing, that we may earn an
inheritance in the kingdom of God, and we shall find that our loyalty in this
shape will actually purchase us an everlasting inheritance.
-- Re: Journal of Discourses 15:310.
Harry Black
Horobiru
--------------------------
> [LDS Apostle Orson Hyde,
> Salt Lake City, (19 Jan 1873)]
> Brethren and sisters, let us pay our tithing, that we may earn an
> inheritance in the kingdom of God, and we shall find that our loyalty in this
> shape will actually purchase us an everlasting inheritance.
> -- Re: Journal of Discourses 15:310.
Said the TBM: "Harry, you know that the JoD isn't doctrinal. Well, at
least it isn't doctrinal for you Korihor-like anti-Mormons. It's only
doctrinal when the Correlation Committee puts JoD quote in our Gospel
Doctrine manuals."
How could you have been so foolish?
hblack
I never assume the Doctrine of Perfect Doctrinal Coherence as Mormons often do.
This often gets me to the bottom of things fast, which some TBMs would grant, but
only in their pejorative sense <g>.
Cheers!
Harry
CharlesSWaters
Jeff Shirton <jshi...@home.com> wrote in message
news:J4027.12476$mY2.1...@news1.busy1.on.home.com...
> "Gerald Fuller" <genef...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:2yu17.9202$oa1.9...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> > "susan" <bcs...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:39c97801.01070...@posting.google.com...
>
> > > For the LDS: What was the purpose of Jesus' death on the cross? What
> > > significance is it to you if you earn your own way to heaven? Why
> > > would God incarnate endure such pain-what significance is His death
> > > and rising from the grave to you?
> >
> > The purpose of the death of Jesus on the cross? He gave His
> > mortal life as a sacrifice. For a propitiation of our sins.
> > This had been planned before the foundation of the world.
> > It was in accordance with the plan of Our Father to make
> > it possible for us to return to live with Him.
> >
> > You are misinformed that we think that we can earn our way to heaven.
>
> Susan,
>
> This is the way I've been able to figure it out, after listening to LDS
> for about 10 years...
Regardless of Jeff's machinations, In Mormonism, if there was no Christ and
His Atonement, there would be no Salvation.
Cheerio,
Charles
CharlesSWaters
Horobiru <no...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:3B48ACB7...@nowhere.net...
More importantly, In Mormonism, if there was no Christ and His Atonement,
there would be no salvation.
--
Does quoting the early Christian fathers establish doctrine?
Cheerio,
Charles
cruithni
"Abel Casten" <notgettingmail@don't.try> wrote:
Abel, I luv ya, but you will lose this one.
> "CharlesSWaters"
> > A cross (many types) and "the Christian cross" (many types) are different.
> >
> Valid points, but I was addressing the topic of a cross being placed on
> top of a building and the remark that it could indicate pagans inside. I
> don't know of any pagan path that sets aside particular buildings for their
> worship services, much less marks them with any sort of divine icon.
I don't know about 'crosses'. I do know that ancient religions did set
aside particular buildings. Indeed, ancient religions specified not just
buildings, but whole regions.
> Also, while I grant that there are many types of crosses I have yet to
> find any that are used by any pagan groups.
Abel, I do this with some reservation, but please, in your opinion,
define 'pagan'.
I say only because I've just read 5 books about the Knights Templar.
They were accused of 'pagan' practices... if they were pagans, they used
an equal-armed red cross. As did the Celtic Church. See the Celtic cross.
> Some of us use a
> double-bisected circle, which includes an equal-armed cross, as a symbol of
> various aspects of the Wheel, but I don't know of any that use an actual
> cross.
>
> I could be wrong in this and if you know of any pagan groups of even any
> other non-Christian religions that use a cross as a symbol, I'd really like
> to learn of them.
The cross is actually a documented ancient symbol. As is the swastika.
It is a shame that the swastika is now associated with the Nazis...but
the swastika is a form of the cross...
Christopher
Woody Brison
> Have you seen the satanic symbols on the LDS Salt Lake City temple?
>
> Here they are: http://helpingmormons.org/salt_lake_satanic_symbols.htm
Are you under the impression that there is some grain or
even a particle of truth here?
I think a Woody Web Weview is in order!
The author of this web page claims that the symbols on the
Temples are satanic and occult. Quite a heavy accusation.
If true, we would have to ask why the Lord's Church has
satanic symbols. The answer is simple: it doesn't. It
has symbols, but they are not satanic. Some of them have
been used by other groups with other meanings, but we have
our meanings for them, and none of those meanings are
satanic or evil. It would be the most trivial exercise
to determine what the Latter-day Saints consider those
symbols to mean: just ask them, or read books written by
them, such as Matthew Brown and Paul Smith's _Symbols in
Stone_, which goes into exhaustive detail on the symbolism.
Not just an arbitrary symbolism assigned by the authors,
(as in the case of this web page) but rather, detailed
documentation on what the symbols mean to the Latter-day
Saints who put them on the buildings and use the buildings
daily.
The symbols often do have a hidden meaning, which can be
gotten at by means of careful thought and prayer, by one
who lives a Christian life. But, alas, that may be a bit
fur from this author here's sphere of operations, so let's
just stick to the face values of the words.
This author's first lie:
"Satan's first lie recorded in the Bible is in Genesis 3:5,
"ye shall be as gods." That was /not/ a lie, as shown in the
scripture itself. First, this was not all the serpent said;
he said "ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil": in
other words, "ye shall have one of the characteristics of
the Gods, to be able to know good from evil" -- which
characteristic they did not at that time have, and which God
obviously has, and which the subsequent verses show they got.
They ate the fruit, and their awareness of things good and
bad was suddenly activated. God himself even endorsed it:
"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of
us, to know good and evil." (Gen. 3:22) So, right away, we
know that the author of this website is fully capable of
asserting falsehoods and certifying them as truth, and not
very knowledgeable on the scriptures -- the above truth is
really rather elementary. So we better be particularly
careful with anything this author says.
We might comment on the question of why the serpent is
here found with truth in his mouth. And the answer is
simple: the first three chapters of Genesis were part of
the old endowment ceremony, and somebody figured they
must belong on the front of Genesis, so they tacked them
on there. The ancient and eternal endowment ceremony
was a play. In a play, the bad guy has lines. He says
the lines. The lines are employed by the director/writer
to get points across. Even if it means the liar bad guy
tells a truth.
Back to our regularly scheduled program. His next lie is
in the very next sentence. "The doctrines of "exaltation"
and "celestial glory" (that people can evolve into gods and
goddesses) are rooted in ancient witchcraft". This is
false, they originated in the teachings of the prophets of
God, and the Bible is full of the doctrine. For details on
that point, see <http://lds.net/pages/wwbrison/2beagod.htm>.
It is also enlightening to use a search engine on the Bible
to see how many times it uses the words "exalt" and "exalted"
(just 100) and the word "glory" in connection with "god"
or "heaven" (112). It's easy to string words together to
make accusations; the good trick is to make strings of
words that say meaningful things.
This is two lies in two sentences; a rational person
would think of bailing at this point and look somewhere
else to find truth, but we will proceed further; this is
a Woody Web Weview, we mustn't be discouraged by a few
falsehoods injested, like rocks in the intake of a jet
engine. We just chew 'em up and continue!
Next we are informed that the cross is opposed by Satan.
Not so. His servants have often tortured innocents under
this sign; it doesn't have any special divine power of
goodness or protection. In fact, the Lord himself was
tortured to death on it.
Let's look at the symbols that our author claims are
satanic. First, the sun; he says this is a symbol of
Baal. It does seem incongruous that this cheery, warm
friend should be a symbol of evil; but personal impressions
aside, my Bible uses the sun as a symbol for good, or for
Christ himself, in a number of places, such as Genesis 1:3,
1:16, 2 Sam. 23:4; Psalm 19:4-5, 84:11, 89:36; 136:8;
Malachi 4:2; Matthew 13:43; Mark 16:2; 1 Cor. 15:40-42;
James 1:11; Revelation 1:16, 12:1; but there are also
passages which deplore the fact that the people
idolatrously worshipped the sun, and some passages record
how they used it as a symbol of Baal all right. So, do
we yield to this author? No, for that is not what the
Bible teaches.
The Bible's teaching is obvious: the sun is a symbol of
the Lord, but idolators sometimes take it as a symbol of
their own. It works either way, and if the Latter-day
Saints use it in the same way the prophets in the Bible
do -- which they do, then they are on the same side.
The question is, how do the Latter-day Saints take it?
We take it for a symbol primarily of the Celestial
Kingdom, exactly as given in 1 Corinthians 15; a /direct/
symbol of the brightness of the glory of God's kingdom.
There is not a faithful Latter-day Saint who would look
at the sun, moon, and star stones and not say that the
sunstones represent the Celestial Kingdom.
Now, here's something interesting: this author here has
this statement: "One of the original stones is incased in
a climate controlled glass structure on the site near
where the Nauvoo Temple stood." Besides the fact that
the stone is not in that case anymore, it has now been
moved while the Nauvoo Temple is being rebuilt; the
statement is right next to a familiar picture.
I took this photo myself, in 1998 and put it on my website,
at http://lds.net/pages/wwbrison/stone.htm. The author
here did not even bother to rename the image file, altho
he has cropped it; he didn't even change the link behind
it, it still links to the larger photo on my website! My,
my, I think I will contact this paragon of truth and virtue
and see why he did this without asking, without attributing,
and without any bashfulness about using it in the service
of falsehood, contrary to how it was set by its owner.
You can see here what's going on. I put the photo up for
a good reason, to further a good purpose. He's stealing
my photo, bending it to an accusation that we LDS do evil,
using my file which I pay for and weaving it in with all
the rest of his lies (documented above). Who is it that
is serving the evil spirit!
The author declines of course to delve into details, but
I will. Note the diagonal lines in the clouds at the
bottom of the sunstone. Now compare these to the pattern
at the bottom of Fac. 1 in the Book of Abraham. The
Explanation given there is that this pattern represents
the heavens. Such things are doubtless too trivial for
that author to notice, but where the people use a symbol,
and indicate the meaning they associate with it, it is
foul bigotry to assert that they really mean something
else by it, and /condemn them for that alternate meaning/.
Our author's next attempt at an example of how satanic
we are is the "mural" on the front of the LDS Historical
Museum. I'm not familiar with this picture, isn't that
a figure of Jesus Christ, the largest figure in it, right
in the center? I wonder sometimes what makes these
antimormon bigots try.
Next we have a couple of entries from the LDS Bible
Dictionary. I suppose this kind of thing is where the
antis get their oft-made claim that LDS sources are
used to document their falsehoods. In this particular
case, the citations are interesting but clearly do not
apply to the LDS; they describe belief systems of the
ancient world, thousands of years ago.
Is there more? Oh, yes, these antis never run out of
steam for their little whistles.
"Symbolism of the Occult is also found in the form of the
"Moon Stones" which is represented in phases on the Salt
Lake Temple." My, I wonder what is supposed to be evil
about the phases of the moon? I have always found them
to be rather beautiful. Turning to _Figures in Stone_,
(p. 98) we read: ''In several passages of scripture, the
sanctified church is described as being "clear as the
moon" (DC 5:14, 109:73, 105:31). The word "clear" can
be defined as meaning "free from darkness ... blame or
guilt."'' [footnote 38: Random House Webster's Dictionary,
1996]. I notice that in Revelation 12:1, the woman
representing the Church has the moon under her feet. Odd
that the moonstones were at the feet of the columns holding
up the roof of this 'church'.
Now, sometimes even someone representing the evil one can
inadvertently supply truth and beauty. Our author here
has a photo of the little round windows on the Salt Lake
Temple. Remember those? with the funny drapes gathered
at the center? In the photo, the frame of the window,
made of stone, casts a partial shadow on the curtain, making
a very nice phase of the moon, which of course changes hourly
with the movement of the sun (tho of course it is the earth
which moves, not the sun:) and this shadow makes the round
window take different phases of the moon. I never noticed
this. Of course, I don't live in Salt Lake, and don't get
to sit and watch the Temple -- I probably wouldn't have time
to sit around and watch it if I did live there -- but it
shows most graphically the connection or link between the
motion of the earth and the the sun and the phases of the
moon. Cool!!! We know that the Lord put the moon's phases
in place and ordained them as symbols, to demark times and
seasons and days and years. And now we see that the
designers of this Temple have done something almost as
nice. It seems like evidence that the two are allies.
Next we are treated to this imponderable: "Symbols of the
witch goddess Dana (Artemis), and used in black magick."
I'm wondering if our author here is unversed in mythology,
or simply in spelling. Whatever.
The next thing that catches the eye of this Weview is:
"As ...Osiris represented the sun... in Egyptian lore,
Isis...represented... the Moon. But the truth is, that
Osiris represented the male, active or generative, powers
of nature; while Isis represented its female, passive or
prolific, powers." (E of F, pp. 678, 746.)
I would like to know more about this, so I will have to
be on the lookout for a book called "E of F". It is cited
/six times/ on this webpage, but never defined! Hmmm.
"The Druids of Britain and Gaul had a deep knowledge
concerning the mysteries of Isis and worshiped her under
the symbol of the moon. The moon was chosen for Isis
because of its domination over water. The Druids consider
the sun to be the father and the moon the mother of all
things." (Secret Teachings of All Ages, p. LXVIII.)
It sounds to me like these Druid characters knew a lot.
I wonder how they knew of Egyptian deities? Pretty smart
of them anyway to know that the tides are caused by the
moon. Finding that the Druids knew about the moon doesn't
actually say anything plus or minus about the Latter-day
Saints; but we know that the Lord set the Moon in place
to rule over the night, and to give light upon the earth,
and to be for signs, seasons, days and years. So, instead
of being evidence that this symbol is satanic, it shows
that it is one of the Lord's own. Finding it on the Temple
built by Latter-day Saints to their God, therefore
indicates that their God is the Creator of heaven and earth.
Pretty obvious, eh?
We should mention one thing, about Osiris representing
the sun (the other way around, actually): this symbol
from Egypt is found in the Old Testament, in Malachi
4:2; the winged sun was a frequent symbol used in Egypt
for Osiris/Horus. Why then does Malachi, speaking for
the Lord, use the same symbol, and make it represent
Christ? Simple: Osiris was Christ. The Egyptians came
out of the same ark as the rest of us, and they originally
had the same religion taught by Noah; consequently some of
their symbols are powerful witnesses of the reality and
divinity of Christ. If you research out the attributes of
Osiris, you will find many correlations with Jehovah, the
Creator and Redeemer. Who is it that separates the sheep
from the goats, putting them on his right and left? Who
carries a shepherd's crook, ready to tenderly rescue his
lambs when they get in trouble? Who is it that carries
a flail, to thrash the nations and separate the wheat from
the chaff? And shudder deep when the time comes that that
flail is seen in his left hand, to address those on his
right.
Let's skip down thru this author's attempts to pin satanic
things on the LDS, using books not by the LDS, as well as
quotations from the Bible that I have already dealt with,
to this:
"Then said he unto me, Hast thou seen [this], O son of man?
turn thee yet again, [and] thou shalt see greater
abominations than these. And he brought me into the inner
court of the LORD'S house, and, behold, at the door of the
temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, [were]
about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the
temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and
they worshipped the sun toward the east. Ezekiel 8:16-15
"It may be important here to note that ALL temples of the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints point to the
east, including the "Angel Moroni" that stands at the top
of most temples."
I had to wonder at this. It is clear right from this
quotation that the Lord's Temple in Jerusalem faced the
east; why are the LDS at fault for facing theirs the same
way? Where they do, of course. The Los Angeles Temple,
where I got my endowments, faces south. The Provo Temple
faces west; or perhaps west x southwest, I was married
there. Perhaps some few on this forum would like to go
to their local Temples and note which way they face?
Either way, and every way, this author's criticism here
is pretty directionless, like all the rest of his so far.
"This is the universal sign of Satan, and symbol of
opposition to Christ" is what this author says of the
'inverted pentagram' -- the five-point star (one point
pointing straight down). I believe that this has been
thoroughly investigated on this forum and found not so,
so I won't belabor it; but briefly, the inverted five
pointed star (one point pointing straight down) is an
ancient symbol for the light of the Gospel. The one
point down points out the path for man to go. The
servants of Satan, with their characteristic stupidity,
must have figured it was an inversion, and that they
being muddled in everything, own all inversions. The
symbols was God's, however. The Star of Bethlehem was
just such a star; people used to depict it with five
points, one down, until the crucifix enthusiasts got
control of everything and made it the four-pointed star
we see today on Christmas cards.
The symbol therefore not being evil, we will scoot on
down thru the many pictures exhibited which attempt to
document the use of it in Salt Lake City. Stopping
briefly at this one:
"Eagle gate at State Street and South Temple Street. The
original was a 22 foot gate to Brigham Young's property
in 1859. Church President's $4.5 million apartment is the
glassed in floor above the eagle's wings and to the right."
I wonder, what makes it a $4.5 million apartment? or is
this just more of the same brainless gossip?
All right! we are more than half way thru this bogon.
Ah! Here is a citation from _Symbols in Stone_. So, our
author here is aware of the book. And here we now have a
problem. All this could have proceeded from an ignorance
of what the LDS believe; but not if this author has a copy
of Symbols in Stone. No one could read that and honestly
believe what this author has on their webpage here. So,
I hope they have their excuses ready (or better yet their
demonstated repentance) on the Day of Judgement.
NEXT, we are treated to a blatant display of a technique
of falsehood. The technique is illustrated by a certain
salesman, who was hired by a department store to stand on
a platform and push Sudsy Dish Cleaner, or whatever the
name was. He pulled out a plate, all covered with gook,
and with many words spoken rapidly in praise of Sudsy,
sprayed Sudsy all over this plate. Then he wiped it off
and voila! the gook was still there. He quickly set down
the plate and said, "how did you like that, Sudsy cleaned
that plate cleaner'n a whistle; and it will clean your
dishes just as clean! etc. etc. And proceeded to talk it
up with many such words. The people had only seen the
plate not cleaned for a second; and he clouded their own
realization of it with many words, and sold numerous
bottles of the useless Sudsy.
So, here goes: this author here tells us, with suitable
build up ("Now on to the most scary site you will see."),
that we have the inverted pentagram, and inside it is the
head of a goat, right off the cover of the Satanic Bible,
whatever that is. (He scanned it himself.) And right
beside it, a picture of the LDS star in the window. And
two more right above it. There's the goat, all right.
And there's the LDS stars. Wait, uh... see, we have
a pause button!
With this webpage frozen right in the act, let's look.
Are we supposed to be seeing a goat in the LDS examples?
Anybody see a goat there? I am looking right at them and
/the goat is not there/. It's a scary site, all right;
it's scary to think that this guy is driving around on
the same roads as the rest of us. Somebody push 'play'
again.
Next we are furnished with several quotations. These are
too funny to pass up.
1) "In the science of magic the pentalpha is called the holy
and Mysterious pentagram. ...the pentagram in the star
of Magians; ...by virtue of the number five, it has great
command over evil spirits because of its five double
triangles and its five acute angles within and its five
obtuse angles without, so that this interior pentangle
contains in it many great mysteries." (E of F, pp.762-763.)
Why would anyone suppose that the number five has any
command over evil spirits? It is the Lord Jesus Christ and
his servants bearing his Priesthood, who alone can command
them and drive them out. But whatever the "Magians" think;
it has nothing to do with the LDS.
Still watching out for this mysterious E of F book. Talk
about your occult and recondite symbols! I wonder what E
of F stands for. Enchantment of Foulness?
2) "Egypt, a great center of learning and the birthplace of
many arts and sciences, furnished an ideal environment
for transcendental experimentation. False interpretations
were given to the emblems and figures of the Mysteries,
Rubbing my eyes, did I read that?
and elaborate theologies were created to confuse the minds
of their devotees. The masses, deprived of their
birthright of understanding and groveling in ignorance,
eventually became the abject slaves of the spiritual
impostors. Superstition universally prevailed and the
black magicians completely dominated national affairs,
with the result that humanity still suffers from the
sophistries of the priestcrafts of Egypt." (Secret Teachings
of All Ages, p. CI. Emphasis added.)
I am always dumbfounded how often antimormons supply the
very evidence that torpedoes their own arguments. For it
clearly shows that the symbols were originally good, but
the corrupt priests corrupted them.
3) "In symbolism, an inverted figure always signifies a
perverted power.
But how to determine the right side up for a radially-
symmetric geometric figure like a five-pointed star?
...The average person does not even suspect
the occult properties of emblematic pentacles. On this
subject the great Paracelsus has written: 鮮o doubt many
will scoff at the seals, their characters and their uses,
which are described in these books. because is seems
incredible to them that metals and characters which are
dead should have any power and effect.'
Laughing my old age off again, this is so true. Why indeed
would anyone believe that metals and dead characters have
any power or effect. The Book of Mormon has this to say:
Mormon 8:38-39 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye
teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker,
why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye
ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye
not think that greater is the value of an endless
happiness than that misery which never dies--because of
the praise of the world? 39 Why do ye adorn yourselves
with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry,
and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the
afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?
Why would anyone suspect that the Latter-day Saints, who stand
for everything that is good, and I mean really stand for it,
secretly mean all these satanic things with the figures on
their Temples? Why not just ask what they mean by the symbols?
and why give the slightest heed to the rantings of an idiot who
pulls out all these secret meanings from Satanic Bibles. It's
odd that he even has these books, the LDS hardly ever do.
When used in black magic, the pentagram is called the
"sign of the cloven hoof," or the footprint of the
Devil. The star with two points upward is also called
the "Goat of Mendes*," because the inverted star is the
same shape as a goat's head.
We members of the Church know better than to suppose that
the Devil could leave a footprint; that's rubbish; he
doesn't have a physical foot.
...When the upright star turns and upper point falls
to the bottom, it signifies the fall of the Morning Star."
(Secret Teachings of All Ages, p. CIV. Emphasis added.)
Which of course was a great victory for the forces of
righteousness, so again, the critic's attempt to turn a
good symbol into an evil one is foiled as it turns out to
be a good one after all.
*Baphomet, The Goat of Mendes.
"Baphomet was indeed a common medieval form of the
word Mahomet and that not only meant a false prophet
but a demon." (E of F, p. 124.)
My, oh me, what does Baphomet have to do with the LDS?
"We'll let you make up your own mind. But please ask
yourself, how do these compare?" That's easy; they don't
compare in the slightest.
"Why are symbols that are recognized worldwide to be related
to witchcraft and Satanic worship all over the Salt Lake
Temple and other sites near the temple?" Simple; the original
meanings of these symbols are unrelated to witchcraft. The
Latter-day Saints claim to seek the original meanings, and
to seek all that is good, viruous, lovely, of good report or
praiseworthy. They are unafraid of witches or any of that
hogwash. That was easy, too.
"Why isn't the cross, a symbol that is recognized worldwide
to be related with Christianity and the price Jesus paid for
us anywhere near ANY Mormon building?" Easy again; to us,
the cross was instrument used to torture Jesus to death; we
know the risen Christ and his love for us. We want to get
past that suffering -- once the price is paid, the sins
repented of, there's no need to agonize over them any more.
Are we done yet?
Nope, still a ways more to go. Here's a shocker: "Easter Egg
Shaped Windows??" This one should be easy: there are no Easter
Egg Shaped Windows anywhere in LDS architecture, that I'm aware
of; nor on any other building anywhere in the world, that I'm
aware of. The closest thing I can think of is the dome-shaped
roofs of Islam's mosques, which are sometimes gaily colored
like Easter eggs.
Ah, we're now told that certain customs, such as Easter eggs,
are not Christian. I wonder why this author gets to redefine
Christian symbols at will, and why these redefinitions always
seem to make the LDS come out the losers. Gee, I wonder.
And we're illustrated here with a window of the Salt Lake
Temple. I wonder if this guy really does not know the
difference between an ellipse and the shape of a hen's egg?
Skipping down a bit, I think we can dispense with the author's
appetite for some of this garbage -- but wait, there are little
snidey jabs in blue, like "(In the Mormon temple you are taught
that you can become Kings and Queens, Priests and Priestesses.
They also believe we have a Mother in Heaven.)
We should think about this. In the Bible we are taught that
we can become kings and priests Rev. 1:6, 5:10; and we wonder
who Adam was talking about when he said, "Therefore shall a
man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto
his wife: and they shall be one flesh." (Gen. 2:24). In the
very next verse we are told that Eve was his wife after that.
My, my, could it be that we do have a Mother in Heaven?
Come, let's skip all this rubbish about Ishtar etc., down
to this gem: "These things are no joke, any more than
Judgment day is a joke." I wonder, at Judgement Day, will
they ask about such things as lying? (or stealing?)
All-Seeing-Eye. Wow, I wonder if this guy is really unaware
of the omniscience of God.
Oh, here's a good one: "You will also notice the Alpha and
Omega keystone here, a little wet from rain."
I wonder if this author is actually unaware that Alpha and
Omega are rather loud symbols that say Jesus Christ? (Rev.
1:8, 11, 21:6, 22:13) or that his "rain" looks a lot like
jpeg artifact? I wonder where he stole /this/ image.
"The LDS Church has duped it's people into believing that
these symbols are all Godly and they can give you an
reasonable excuse as to what they mean."
Do you recognize this? It's the oldest trick in the book,
and one of the lamest. The prosecution is winding up their
case, and says, "the defense is now going to give you a
bunch of explanations for all this!" I wonder if people
really accept that as a substitute for actual evidence and
reasoning?
"Besides the fact that this verse is being taken completely
out of context, the subject being spoken about is only
referring to two types of resurrections, that of the spiritual
body and that of the natural body. Notice how the LDS church
has had to come up with another name for a heaven that doesn't
exist?"
Notice how Paul seems to have slipped in three figures for
his two heavens? Sun, moon, and stars. Symbols for the
Celestial, Terrestial, and ??????? (can't quite read
manuscript at that point, oh well, we're sure that he
must have just meant nothing.)
And now, finally, we get to the point: "When you use the
analogy given in the Bible and then derive graven images
from it and then put them on our places of worship they
become idolistic and an abomination to God."
To which my answer is, when you learn how to tell truth,
we will consider pontifications made by you about what
is abomination to God, but not before then.
"It is our hope and prayer that you will be able to see the
true origin of the Mormon Temple and all of it's signs and
symbols inside and out." AMEN, brud, an' Hallyloo, and
when you repent of your lies and really pray, instead of
just claiming to, maybe we will talk further about symbolic
meanings. It is impossible to correctly interpret symbols
when you avoid truth like it was a minefield, as if it were
full of unpleasant mysteries you don't understand.
"For me, it took a 15 years to begin to realize that the
god of the Mormon Church is not the Holy God of the Bible."
And when you're ready to demonstrate some familiarity with
the plain and whole sense of that same Bible, we will see
if you still retain your foul claims about Mormonism.
Wood
Woody Brison
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 13:36:46 -0600
From: Woody Brison <wwbr...@lds.net>
Organization: Audience of One
To: r...@helpingmormons.org
Dear Rod,
On your site, at the url
http://helpingmormons.org/salt_lake_satanic_symbols.htm
you have used without permission or attribution an image that belongs
to me. It is http://helpingmormons.org/images/sunston1_s.jpg and
the link behind it is to my website, where the original is displayed.
Were you informing the public about anything true or good, I
would have no objection, but since you are publishing falsehoods,
I am going to deny you permission to use my photograph, which I took
at Nauvoo in the fall of 1998, and has been on my website ever since.
You have cropped the image slightly, but that does not make it
yours or give you the right to use it as you are doing. I am
paying for the storage of the larger image at the link to my
site, it is not right that you use this for your nefarious purposes.
FYI, I have written a complete and correct rebuttal of your entire
page there, and posted it to alt.religion.mormon.fellowship. You
may view it at
http://groups.google.com/groups?ic=1&selm=f36171a3.0107091940.5f88feb5%40posting.google.com
and in fact I invite you to post any defense you can think of
for your ignorant and lowbrow behavior, or an apology with
removal of the image and link.
Be aware that any response you make to me, I may post to the
group, or to anywhere else I see fit, as I am doing with this
present communication.
Woody Brison
wwbr...@lds.net (Woody Brison) wrote in message news:<f36171a3.01070...@posting.google.com>...
> John Manning <joh...@cableone.net> wrote in message news:<3B468124...@cableone.net>...
>
> > Have you seen the satanic symbols on the LDS Salt Lake City temple?
> >
> > Here they are: http://helpingmormons.org/salt_lake_satanic_symbols.htm
>
> Are you under the impression that there is some grain or
> even a particle of truth here?
>
> I think a Woody Web Weview is in order!
>
> The author of this web page claims that the symbols on the
> Temples are satanic and occult. ...
SatanBoy
Nauvoo Temple?
http://www.ldstemplepage.org/newnauvoo.html
You need to scroll down towards the bottom of the page. There is clearly
an INVERTED (Satanic) pentagram being built for several of the window
shapes. Good news for my Infernal Lord, bad news for the christers.
Check it out!
Ave Satanas!
Woody Brison
> Has anyone seen the Satanic symbols being constructed for the "new"
> Nauvoo Temple?
>
> http://www.ldstemplepage.org/newnauvoo.html
>
> You need to scroll down towards the bottom of the page. There is clearly
> an INVERTED (Satanic) pentagram being built for several of the window
> shapes. Good news for my Infernal Lord, bad news for the christers.
> Check it out!
>
> Ave Satanas!
I believe you are uninformed. The 'inverted' star has been claimed
by the followers of satan as theirs, but it is not theirs. There is
nothing on or in the Nauvoo Temple that is satanic.
By the way, your "Lord" will not reward you any good thing, no
matter how much faithful service you give him. May I invite you
to consider Jesus Christ as a better choice?
Wood
Web
> Nauvoo Temple?
>
> http://www.ldstemplepage.org/newnauvoo.html
>
> You need to scroll down towards the bottom of the page. There is clearly
> an INVERTED (Satanic) pentagram being built for several of the window
> shapes. Good news for my Infernal Lord, bad news for the christers.
> Check it out!
Yep there's even a Proctor and Gamble sign there.
How silly can people get?
Web