parties in Brussels and in Northern Ireland: a comparison
shaitan
Hello,
I went to Belfast last august and I met there, in the Rotterdam pub, on the
docks, a history teacher who answered very kindly my numerous questions
about some aspects of Northern Ireland.
He was a member of the Green party, formerly a member of the Communist
Party (he told me many Green members are), and he told me that there a
Green members in NI affiliated to British Greens, others to Irish Greens.
I also (briefly) ran across a book in a Belfast library about the history
of the Labour Party in NI.
Both matters are very interesting from my Brussels point of view : up to
1978, there was a federal socialist (social-democrat) party, then two : a
french-speaking one (Parti socialiste) and a flemish(dutch)-speaking one
(Socialistische Partij).
The Belgian greens, Anders Gaan Leven (AGALEV, flemish) and ECOLO
(french-speaking) didn't have a common 'ancestor', so they developed
independently, but with a better understanding and cooperation between both
parties than for others (PS and SP for instance, or CVP and PSC for the
christian-democrats).
In the 'mixed' municipalities, essentially in the Brussels Urban Region (19
'communes', with a french-speaking majority) and its surroundings (5
french-speaking 'communes' and others with a flemish-speaking majority),
there are thus sections of both socialist (and other) parties.
Ecolo adapted its statutes a year ago in order to allow 'double
affiliation' with Agalev, mainly because there aren't Ecolo sections in the
'periphery', and no Agalev sections in every Brussels' municipality, so it
was a measure to allow individual members to fully take part to local
sections' activities.
The Parti Socialiste recognizes the 'double affiliation' with other parties
member of the Socialist International, mainly the Italian, Spanish, French
and Greek parties, all of which have sections in Brussels, and sometimes in
other cities in Belgium.
Do you have more information or references about the situation in NI on
such matters ?
Sincerely yours,
Pierre-Yves LAMBERT (pyl.l...@skynet.be)
This is a very interesting question, which is why it has taken me a while
to write a reply.
In the 19th century the British party system extended to the whole of
Ireland, with exceptions. With the rise of the Irish Nationalist party
under Isaac Butt and Charles Stuart Parnell in the 1870s, politics became
polarised between the Conservative/Unionists, mostly Protestant, who
opposed any autonomy for Ireland, and the Irish Nationalists, mostly
Catholic, who advocated autonomy within the British Empire. The Irish
Conservatives of this period were fully part of the British Conservative
Party. The British Liberal Party was very much weakened in Ireland by the
rise of the Irish Nationalists as a political force, and then in 1886 it
suffered a major split when its Unionist members, led by Joseph
Chamberlain, formed a small party of their own which went into permanent
coalition with the Conservatives before finally merging with them in 1906.
This weakened the Liberals in England, Scotland and Wales and practically
ended the party in Ireland as anything other than an occasional flag of
convenience for Irish Nationalist candidates.
Until 1920 politics in the whole of Ireland can be seen as a special,
regional case of British politics. From 1921 to 1972, the situation
changed. Most of Ireland became independent and rapidly developed its own
party system. Northern Ireland became autonomous, remaining within the UK.
As you would expect, the Northern Ireland party system was a weak
reflection of both its neighbours. The ruling Unionist party maintained
their link with the Conservatives in England, Scotland and Wales until
1973. There were a number of Liberal and Labour revivals which were given
moral support by the British Labour and Liberal parties. The Liberals in
Northern Ireland were always given full status within the British Liberal
party, but the Northern Ireland Labour Party remained separate and
residents of Northern Ireland were not allowed to join the British Labour
Party.
Some parties based in what is now the Irish Republic did try to gain
support from Catholics in Northern Ireland. Sinn Fein, the independence
movement, won a couple of seats in what is now Northern Ireland in the 1918
election, and in the first elections to the Northern Ireland autonomous
parliament in 1921, Sinn Fein and the remains of the old Irish Nationalist
Party both won six seats out of 52. But Sinn Fein concentrated on splitting
into various factions which then got on with governing the new independent
state and lost interest in Northern Ireland. Eamon de Valera was elected to
the Stormont Parliament for his own Fianna Fail party in 1932 but never
attended. The Irish Labour Party temporarily expanded into Northern Ireland
on a couple of occasions during the 1940s and 1950s, basically when groups
of Nationalists decided to join it. Meanwhile the Irish Nationalist Party,
which had been wiped out of the rest of Ireland, continued to be the
largest political group representing Catholics in the North.
There was a general political realignment in the early 1970s. The link
between the Unionist Party and the British Conservatives was broken. Both
the Ulster Liberal Party and the Northern Irish Labour Party found most of
their support going to the Alliance Party of Northern Ireland, which is a
member of ELDR and Liberal International. The Irish Nationalist Party
finally disappeared and most of its support went to the Social Democratic
and Labour Party, which is basically an Irish Nationalist party based in
Northern Ireland only with some pretensions to social democracy (and is
also in the European Socialists and Socialist International). So for most
of the 1970s Northern Irish politics remained very localised.
There were two significant developments in the 1980s. First, Sinn Fein
decided to fight elections again in Northern Ireland in 1982, and it is now
the strongest party with elected members both north and south of the
border. Then, partly in reaction to the rise of Sinn Fein, a number of
Unionists in Northern Ireland demanded that the British political parties
should again organise in Northern Ireland ; they claimed that the refusal
of Labour and Conservatives to allow people from Northern Ireland to join
their parties was a breach of human rights. The Conservative Party did
change its rules and begin to organise in Northern Ireland. They failed to
make the breakthrough in the early 1990s and are now a very minor party.
Labour still does not allow people to join from Northern Ireland. There are
a number of small Labour groups in Northern Ireland, most of whom would
like to join the British Labour Party. The Liberal Democrats do accept
members from Northern Ireland, but they support the Alliance Party's
candidates in elections - in fact this is an example of the 'double
affiliation' you talk about in Belgium. I myself was a member of both
parties while I lived in Northern Ireland. As for the Greens, I don't know
for sure but my feeling is that the Northern Ireland Greens are closer to
the Greens in the Irish Republic (who have two members in the lower house
of parliament and two members of the European Parliament) than they are to
the British Greens (who have maybe ten elected members of municipal coun
cils in the whole country).
The whole question of which political parties to join raises all kinds of
other issues about the final destiny of Northern Ireland. The movement
behind the Conservatives organising here was very much one whose aims were
to have Northern Ireland treated as if it were any other part of the UK.
The main political figure of this movement is Robert McCartney, the MP for
North Down who now has his own political party, the UK Unionist Party. I'm
no longer as involved as I was but I understand that the issue of even
closer links between the Alliance Party and the Liberal Democrats is being
examined. Already the Alliance Party's leader sits in the House of Lords as
a Liberal Democrat. However there doesn't seem to be much prospect of the
British Labour Party extending membership to Northern Ireland. Likewise
most of the parties in the Irish Republic are unlikely to expand their
organisation to the North. (Though Fine Gael, the second largest party, has
recruited both a former Alliance Party leader as a member of the European
Parliament and a former leading member of the SDLP as a member of the Irish
Parliament.)
Someone should do a serious examination of this issue from the theoretical
and practical viewpoints. Do the Austrian parties organise in the South
Tyrol ? Do the Fiinish and Swedish parties organise in the Aland islands ?
What is the relationship between Andorran and Catalonian politics ? This
week's big story in Croatia and Bosnia is the split in the Bosnian wing of
President Tudjman's HDZ. Likewise Seselj's Serb Radical Party organises in
both Bosnia and Serbia.
Anyway, thanks for your thought-provoking email. I hope this answer is
enlightening rather than confusing.
Sincerely,
Nicholas Whyte ( Expl...@Whyte.com )
Stefane Dowet
Li 1 Jul 1998 19:40:26 GMT, "shaitan " <pyl.lamb...@skynet.be> a
scrit:
[Nicholas White wrote : ]
>As for the Greens, I don't know
>for sure but my feeling is that the Northern Ireland Greens are closer to
>the Greens in the Irish Republic (who have two members in the lower house
>of parliament and two members of the European Parliament) than they are to
>the British Greens (who have maybe ten elected members of municipal coun
>cils in the whole country).
Let's precise that there are no British Greens but :
- Green Party of England and Wales, member of EFGP
http://www.gn.apc.org/greenparty/
- Scottish Green Party, member of EFGP
http://www.clan.com/environment/scotgreenparty/
- Green Party of Northern Ireland
http://www.belfast.co.uk/nigreens/
In Ireland, there are
- Comhaontas Glas/Green Alliance, member of EFGP
http://ireland.iol.ie/resource/green/index.htm
>The whole question of which political parties to join raises all kinds of
>other issues about the final destiny of Northern Ireland. The movement
>behind the Conservatives organising here was very much one whose aims were
>to have Northern Ireland treated as if it were any other part of the UK.
>The main political figure of this movement is Robert McCartney, the MP for
>North Down who now has his own political party, the UK Unionist Party.
I'd like to add that in Worldwide Directory of Parties
http://www.agora.stm.it/elections/parties.htm
under the directory "extreme-right", along Vlaams Blok and Front
National, you'll find :
United Kingdom (Northern Ireland): Democratic Unionist Party (radical
unionist)
[the party of the well-known Rev. Ian Paisley]
United Kingdom (Northern Ireland): Ulster Democratic Party (radical
unionist, linked to Ulster Defense Association)
[linked to loyalist terrorists]
United Kingdom (Northern Ireland): United Kingdom Unionist Party
(radical unionist)
United Kingdom (Northern Ireland): Progressive Unionist Party (radical
unionist, linked to Ulster Volunteer Force)
[also linked to loaylist terrorists]
Well, that says a lot about the Unionists of Northern Ireland !
For information, the UUP, the major unionist party of David Trimble,
PM of Northern Ireland, is a conservative [that is democratic] one.
>I'm
>no longer as involved as I was but I understand that the issue of even
>closer links between the Alliance Party and the Liberal Democrats is being
>examined. Already the Alliance Party's leader sits in the House of Lords as
>a Liberal Democrat. However there doesn't seem to be much prospect of the
>British Labour Party extending membership to Northern Ireland. Likewise
>most of the parties in the Irish Republic are unlikely to expand their
>organisation to the North. (Though Fine Gael, the second largest party, has
>recruited both a former Alliance Party leader as a member of the European
>Parliament and a former leading member of the SDLP as a member of the Irish
>Parliament.)
But there are some trans-Irish parties :
Democratic Left/Daonlathas Clé
http://www.connect.ie/users/dl/
Workers Party
http://www.workers-party.org/
and don't forget that the actual President of the Republic of Ireland,
Mary McAleese comes from Belfast, Northern Ireland.
>Someone should do a serious examination of this issue from the theoretical
>and practical viewpoints. Do the Austrian parties organise in the South
>Tyrol ?
The Südtiroler Volkspartei, is a conservative party. And it is the
pendant of the Österreichische Volkspartei.
But I am not sure if they have many links.
From the official site of South Tyrol
The ”Südtiroler Volkspartei” (popular party of South Tyrol) is
presenting itself since 1948 as the rallying party having a
demesurated majority and representing the German-speaking and
Ladin-speaking South Tyrolians.
>Do the Fiinish and Swedish parties organise in the Aland islands ?
Conservative parties of Åland :
- Frissinad Samverkan
- Obunden Samling
Liberal parties of Åland :
- Ålands Center
- Liberalerna pö Åland
Social-Democrat parties of Åland :
- Ålands Socialdemokrater
It seems there are no Finnish parties in Åland (there are only 5%
Finn-speakers).
And I don't know if they have links with Swedish parties.
>What is the relationship between Andorran and Catalonian politics ?
Liberal parties of Andorra
- Agrupament Nacional Democràtic
- Uniò Liberal/Partit Liberal Andorra', member of LIo ELDRa
Social-Democratic parties of Andorra :
- Initiatíva Democratica Nacional
- Nova Democracia
Once more, it seems that there are not many links between Andorran and
Catalan parties. It's maybe due to the fact that Andorra is already
independent, and has developped a national identity different from
Catalonia.
>This
>week's big story in Croatia and Bosnia is the split in the Bosnian wing of
>President Tudjman's HDZ. Likewise Seselj's Serb Radical Party organises in
>both Bosnia and Serbia.
The Hrvatska Demokratska Zajednica (HDZ) (Croatian Democratic
Community, Croatian-nationalist) is listed as a minority party in BiH,
but as a conservative in Croatia.
The Stranka Demokratski Akcije (SDA), Muslims' party, is a
conservative party in BiH
Here are the extreme-right parties of BiH :
- Socialisticka Partija Republike Srpske (Socialist Party of the
Serbian Republic, left wing moderate nationalist)
- Srpska Demokratska Stranka (Serb Democratic Party, Serb-nationalist)
- Srpska Narodni Savez (Serbian People's Alliance, moderate
Serb-nationalist)
- Srpska Patriotska Stranka (Serb Patriotic Party, Serb-nationalist)
- Srpska Radikalna Stranka Republike Srpske (Serb Radical Party of
Serbian Republic, xenophobic Serb-nationalist)
It seems they are all Serbian !
And in Yugoslavia :
- Srpski Pokret Obnove (Serb Renewal Movement, moderate nationalist)
- Srpska Radikalna Stranka (Serb Radical Party, xenophobic)
THe SRS in YU and BiH is so an extreme-right party !
Phew, quite long, he ?
Djuskas di Waloneye / Salutations wallonnes,
--
Stéfâne Dowet, dispu 1978, Nam(e)ur, Wallonie (EU)
My European page is at http://www.ping.be/federal-europe/
|Let's make the EU more democratic - vote YES to Amsterdam
The European Parliament consists of 212 PES, 200 EPP, 36 UE,
41 ELDR, 34 GUE, 29 Green, 20 ERA, 18 IEdN, 36 independents
--- NON au rattachisme à la France ---
Po m'îmêlez : rtiroz li "_NOSPAM" divant @ping.be
Radenko
>Here are the extreme-right parties of BiH :
Boy, are you full of shit !
These classifications are not reveiling anything on these parties. The only
thing that is reveiled is the fascists view of the author of these
classifications.
I don't mind you supporting genocidal muslim & Croat expansionist ideas,
that's your free choice, but lying like this.....
shaitan
Stefane Dowet <pin0003...@ping.be> wrote in article
<359cdae7...@news.ping.be>...
> Li 1 Jul 1998 19:40:26 GMT, "shaitan " <pyl.lamb...@skynet.be> a
> scrit:
>
> [Nicholas White wrote : ]
>
[snip]
> >Someone should do a serious examination of this issue from the
theoretical
> >and practical viewpoints. Do the Austrian parties organise in the South
> >Tyrol ?
>
> The Südtiroler Volkspartei, is a conservative party. And it is the
> pendant of the Österreichische Volkspartei.
But I am not sure if they have many links.
Aren't they members of the Christian Democratic International ?
>
> From the official site of South Tyrol
>
> The "Südtiroler Volkspartei" (popular party of South Tyrol) is
> presenting itself since 1948 as the rallying party having a
> demesurated majority and representing the German-speaking and
Ladin-speaking South Tyrolians.
At least, they say so: I doubt very much all German-speaking and
Ladin-speaking South Tyrolians all vote for the same party. Even the
Sudeten didn't before 1938...
>
> >Do the Fiinish and Swedish parties organise in the Aland islands ?
>
[snip]
> It seems there are no Finnish parties in Åland (there are only 5%
Finn-speakers).
Remember Wallonia: in your German-speaking Community, there is only one
"German-speaking party", the Partei der Deutschschprächige Belgen (PDB),
but it only represents a tiny minority of the electorate. The main
"parties" in the German-speaking Community Parliament are fully part of the
other mainly French-speaking Wallon & Brussels parties: Christian
Democrats, Liberals, Socialists and Greens. They have an autonomous status
INSIDE these parties, but do not exist independently of them. I wonder
though if, for instance, there are permanent local structures of the Union
des Francophones (alliance of French-speaking 'traditional' parties, i.e.
Christian Democrats, Liberals and Socialists, in the province of Flemish
Brabant).
> And I don't know if they have links with Swedish parties.
>
[snip]
> >This
> >week's big story in Croatia and Bosnia is the split in the Bosnian wing
of
> >President Tudjman's HDZ. Likewise Seselj's Serb Radical Party organises
in
> >both Bosnia and Serbia.
>
> The Hrvatska Demokratska Zajednica (HDZ) (Croatian Democratic
> Community, Croatian-nationalist) is listed as a minority party in BiH,
but as a conservative in Croatia.
I'd rather say a chauvinistic, fascist-oriented party under the leadership
of Tudjman ! The Web directory of parties is not the Bible when it comes to
party classification ! The same could be said of their judgments towards
other BiH or YU parties, even if most are extremely nationalists: how would
you have described most French parties during and just after WWI, in a
paroxystically chauvinistic mood, for instance when Clemenceau wanted to
annex the "Rhine's Left Bank" (Rive gauche du Rhin) ?
Friendly yours
--
Pierre-Yves (Bruxelles/Brussel/Brouksil/Brussels)
the cosmopolitan and (poly)schizophrenic 'shaitan'
pyl.l...@skynet.be
There is no condition of human misery which cannot be made infinitely worse
by the arrival of a policeman - Brendan Behan, talking nonsense of course
>;O))
Expl...@whyte.com
In article <359cdae7...@news.ping.be>,
pin0003...@ping.be wrote:
>
> Li 1 Jul 1998 19:40:26 GMT, "shaitan " <pyl.lamb...@skynet.be> a
> scrit:
>
> Let's precise that there are no British Greens but :
>
> - Green Party of England and Wales
> - Green Party of Northern Ireland
> - Comhaontas Glas/Green Alliance
That's useful. I will just observe that the Belfast Greens seem to have
more contact with their Dublin counterparts, not surprising given the
geography.
> I'd like to add that in Worldwide Directory of Parties
> under the directory "extreme-right", along Vlaams Blok and Front
> National, you'll find :
>
> Democratic Unionist Party
> Ulster Democratic Party
> United Kingdom Unionist Party
> Progressive Unionist Party
>
> Well, that says a lot about the Unionists of Northern Ireland !
I think it says more about the Worldwide Directory of Parties! Certainly
the Progr
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
shaitan
forwarded by Shaitan from uk.politics.electoral
----------
| From: h.p...@icrf.icnet.uk
| Newsgroups: uk.politics.electoral
| Subject: Transfers in NI Assembly elections [was Re: NI Assembly Full
Details]
| Date: vendredi 3 juillet 1998 11:20
[snip] However, I now realise that my request
| above is not as simple as I envisaged as transfers will depend on what
other
| candidates are still in at that stage. However, simply by leafing through
the
| results, certain patterns of transfers are apparent, some of which are
hardly
| surprising!
|
| The UKUP and DUP tend to go to each other.
|
| SF excesses will go to the SDLP, but not vice versa.
|
| Votes for Alliance and the NI Women's Coalition tend to go to each other
and,
| then, to the moderate sectarian parties (UUP, SDLP).
|
| There's some sign of later transfers between the UUP and SDLP.
|
| Interestingly, votes for the NI Labour party tended to go to Alliance and
not
| SDLP, with whom the British Labour party are officially allied.
Conservative
| votes tended to go to the UUP.
Expl...@whyte.com
(Second attempt to post this:)
In article <359cdae7...@news.ping.be>,
pin0003...@ping.be wrote:
>
> Li 1 Jul 1998 19:40:26 GMT, "shaitan " <pyl.lamb...@skynet.be> a
> scrit:
>
> [Nicholas Whyte wrote : ]
> Let's precise that there are no British Greens but :
>
> - Green Party of England and Wales
> - Scottish Green Party
> - Green Party of Northern Ireland
> In Ireland, there are
> - Comhaontas Glas/Green Alliance
That's useful. I will just observe that the Belfast Greens seem to have
more contact with their Dublin counterparts, not surprising given the
geography.
> I'd like to add that in Worldwide Directory of Parties
> under the directory "extreme-right", along Vlaams Blok and Front
> National, you'll find :
>
> Democratic Unionist Party
> Ulster Democratic Party
> United Kingdom Unionist Party
> Progressive Unionist Party
>
> Well, that says a lot about the Unionists of Northern Ireland !
I think it says more about the Worldwide Directory of Parties! Certainly
the Progressive Unionists describe themselves as Socialist, and the other
three have all claimed left-of-centre tendencies sometimes.
> For information, the UUP, the major unionist party of David Trimble,
> PM of Northern Ireland, is a conservative [that is democratic] one.
They'd happily agree with that.
> >I'm
> >no longer as involved as I was but I understand that the issue of even
> >closer links between the Alliance Party and the Liberal Democrats is being
> >examined.
But last week's election results make that more unlikely.
>
> But there are some trans-Irish parties :
Including Sinn Fein!
> The Hrvatska Demokratska Zajednica (HDZ) (Croatian Democratic
> Community, Croatian-nationalist) is listed as a minority party in BiH,
> but as a conservative in Croatia.
This demonstrates how unhelpful a description "minority party" is. The
Unionist parties listed above could be considered minority parties - after
all they represent minorities in both Ireland and the UK!
> Here are the extreme-right parties of BiH :
> > - Socialisticka Partija Republike Srpske (Socialist Party of the
> Serbian Republic, left wing moderate nationalist)
left wing, moderate, *and* extreme right???
> It seems they are all Serbian !
It seems that the World Wide Directory of Political Parties should be
more careful who it describes as "extreme right"!
> THe SRS in YU and BiH is so an extreme-right party !
I am pretty sure they would agree.
Nicholas
Stefane Dowet
Li 4 Jul 1998 19:58:14 GMT, "shaitan " <pyl.lamb...@skynet.be> a
scrit:
>Stefane Dowet <pin0003...@ping.be> wrote in article
><359e6da5...@news.ping.be>...
>> Li 3 Jul 1998 22:31:35 GMT, "shaitan " <pyl.lamb...@skynet.be> a
>> scrit:
>[snip]> >I wonder
>> >though if, for instance, there are permanent local structures of the
>Union
>> >des Francophones (alliance of French-speaking 'traditional' parties,
>i.e.
>> >Christian Democrats, Liberals and Socialists, in the province of Flemish
>> >Brabant).
>>
>> Well, there is an Internet site.
>> http://club.ib.be/pascal.messemaekers/
>This sites relates to a party in WALLOON Brabant: Nivelles was not yet
>annexed by Flanders, as far as I know. It's probably the splinter
>organization of some other party (the FDF ?)
I don't the site myself, I will surf it as soon as possible. But I
know the UDF is an umbrella for all the francophones of the Flemish
ring of Brussels, whatever their party affiliation.
Djuskas di Waloneye / Salutations wallonnes,
--
Stéfâne Dowet, dispu 1978, Nam(e)ur, Wallonie (EU)
My European page is at http://www.ping.be/federal-europe/
|Let's make the EU more democratic - vote YES to Amsterdam
The European Parliament consists of 212 PES, 200 EPP,
41 ELDR, 36 UE, 34 GUE, 29 Green, 20 ERA, 18 IEdN, 36 ind
--- NON au rattachisme ŕ la France ---
Po m'îmęlez : rtiroz li "_NOSPAM" divant @ping.be
shaitan
> Li 4 Jul 1998 19:58:14 GMT, "shaitan " <pyl.lamb...@skynet.be> a
> scrit:
>
> ><359e6da5...@news.ping.be>...
> >> Li 3 Jul 1998 22:31:35 GMT, "shaitan " <pyl.lamb...@skynet.be> a
> >> scrit:
> >[snip]> >I wonder
> >> >though if, for instance, there are permanent local structures of the
> >Union
> >> >des Francophones (alliance of French-speaking 'traditional' parties,
> >i.e.
> >> >Christian Democrats, Liberals and Socialists, in the province of
Flemish
> >> >Brabant).
> >>
> >> Well, there is an Internet site.
> >> http://club.ib.be/pascal.messemaekers/
> >This sites relates to a party in WALLOON Brabant: Nivelles was not yet
> >annexed by Flanders, as far as I know. It's probably the splinter
> >organization of some other party (the FDF ?)
>
> I don't the site myself, I will surf it as soon as possible. But I
> know the UDF is an umbrella for all the francophones of the Flemish
> ring of Brussels, whatever their party affiliation.
remember there was a UDF list in Wezembeek-Oppem ('commune a facilites')
when I lived there.
Does anyone has more info about this ?
Pierre-Yves